:00:13. > :00:23.Tonight, This Week conjures up some political witchery and wizardry in
:00:23. > :00:23.
:00:23. > :00:26.Westminster. As we wave goodbye to the Dark Arts of the News of the
:00:26. > :00:35.World, what will this mean for the tabloids and the supernatural
:00:35. > :00:39.powers of Rupert Murdoch? PR sorcerer Max Clifford casts a spell.
:00:39. > :00:45.The magic has gone forever and Rupert Murdoch has made it
:00:45. > :00:47.disappear. All the tabloids will be worried now about their magic.
:00:47. > :00:54.Westminster's Chamber of Secrets, the PM's judgment is questioned by
:00:54. > :01:00.the young Labour wizard. With the biggest press scandal in modern
:01:00. > :01:04.times getting worse by the day, he hasn't shown the leadership
:01:04. > :01:08.necessary today, he hasn't shown the leadership necessary on News
:01:08. > :01:17.International. Harry Potter look- alike Nick Watt of the Guardian
:01:18. > :01:24.jumps aboard the Hogwarts Express. I'm at Platform 9 and three-
:01:24. > :01:28.quarters awaiting the Hogwarts Express. And the elders at Hogwarts
:01:28. > :01:37.are treated with respect, but why don't we value our golden oldies in
:01:37. > :01:47.the same way? One icon of the '50s, actress Sylvia Syms, waves her wand.
:01:47. > :01:52.
:01:52. > :01:56.Grab your broomsticks and get ready for a wicked ride. Evenin' all.
:01:56. > :02:00.Welcome to This Week, with news that Oscar Wilde was in fact wrong
:02:00. > :02:03.to claim, "We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the
:02:03. > :02:06.stars". Because as we now know some of the gutter press were not just
:02:06. > :02:09.looking up at the stars but also hacking into their mobile phones
:02:09. > :02:17.listening to their voice messages and printing what they found in the
:02:17. > :02:20.News of the World. But this week the hacking accusations went
:02:20. > :02:23.further - into a far, far darker place - to murdered Milly Dowler's
:02:23. > :02:26.phone, to the parents of the Soham girls, to victims of the 7/7
:02:26. > :02:36.bombings and to families of soldiers killed in Iraq and
:02:36. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:41.Afghanistan. Rupert Murdoch has finally responded - and in a way
:02:41. > :02:45.that is as brutal as it is audacious - torching the 168-year-
:02:45. > :02:55.old newspaper in the hope it will act as a firebreak against the
:02:55. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:05.raging media storm that surrounds News Corporation. Goodbye cruel
:03:05. > :03:08.world, indeed. Murdoch is seemingly prepared to sacrifice the biggest-
:03:08. > :03:18.selling newspaper in the Western world rather than sack its former
:03:18. > :03:21.editor, the Red-Top Red-Top, Rebekah Brooks. But the pressure
:03:21. > :03:30.still remains with Ed Miliband still demanding her red-head on a
:03:30. > :03:36.plate. I hope you followed that. And so plans are afoot to find an
:03:36. > :03:38.excuse for the inexcusable. Reportedly, News International plan
:03:38. > :03:42.to claim Rebekah couldn't possibly have known about the hacking of
:03:42. > :03:52.Milly Dowler's phone because she was - wait for it - away on holiday
:03:52. > :03:54.
:03:54. > :03:56.at the time! Ah. We'll file that in the "dog ate my homework" book of
:03:56. > :03:58.big excuses, shall we? Speaking of those reluctant to take
:03:58. > :04:02.responsibility for their actions the "nothing-to-do-with-me-mate"
:04:02. > :04:08.and "me-neither-mate" of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:04:08. > :04:15.of Alan Johnson and Michael Portillo. Good evening. Good
:04:15. > :04:20.evening. What was your moment of the week? The aspect of it which
:04:20. > :04:23.strikes me. What's happening is that you never had any hope of dog
:04:23. > :04:27.eating dog, you never had any hope of a newspaper reporting about a
:04:27. > :04:31.newspaper. One small example - a long while ago Rebekah Brooks said
:04:31. > :04:35.to a committee in the House of Commons that money had been paid to
:04:35. > :04:39.policemen. Now normally you would think that might be the sort of
:04:39. > :04:43.thing that would be investigated by another newspaper. All of that
:04:43. > :04:50.changes this week. The Guardian prints this story and wait for it,
:04:50. > :04:54.within 72 hours, an announcement that the News of the World is going
:04:55. > :05:00.to close. It took Milly Dowler to get it on to the front-pages of all
:05:00. > :05:04.of the other newspapers? Until then, most of the papers had not wanted
:05:04. > :05:11.to write about this? Dog wasn't eating dog? None of the red-top
:05:11. > :05:14.tabloids had it on the front-page and the Mail had it in a thin
:05:14. > :05:18.column on the side of the page. We have moved into a world where the
:05:18. > :05:23.biggest story in town is what is going on in the papers and the
:05:23. > :05:28.papers will pursue that story. We have had the Times criticising the
:05:28. > :05:33.News of the World. I do think that moves us into a better world.
:05:33. > :05:37.moves us into a very different world for sure. Alan? James Murdoch
:05:37. > :05:40.said this, "The paper made statements to Parliament without
:05:41. > :05:44.being in important possession of the facts. This was wrong. The
:05:44. > :05:49.company made out of court settlements approved by me. I did
:05:49. > :05:59.not have a complete picture when I did so. This was wrong." Why is
:05:59. > :06:02.
:06:02. > :06:10.that important? Two people banged up under the Rippa Act. It talks
:06:10. > :06:14.about consent, neglect so even if you weren't involved, if there was
:06:14. > :06:18.some issue where you just didn't know what you should have known,
:06:18. > :06:21.that brings you into the terms of the Act. I think that is
:06:21. > :06:26.significant. Of course, the fact that he's still got his job is
:06:27. > :06:31.unrelated to the fact that his surname is Murdoch? Entirely
:06:31. > :06:33.unrelated of course(!) Now between all the boozing,
:06:33. > :06:42.rummaging through people's bins and concocting ludicrous expense claims,
:06:42. > :06:45.it seems some of Her Majesty's press have been up to no good! I
:06:45. > :06:49.was shocked too! Yes, less rat-like cunning and more phone hacking on
:06:49. > :06:51.an industrial scale. Rupert Murdoch's News of the World has
:06:51. > :06:54.been at the heart of the allegations, every day bringing
:06:54. > :06:57.fresh revelations of the lows to which the paper had sunk. And with
:06:57. > :06:59.politicians from all sides of the House calling for News
:06:59. > :07:03.International chief executive and former editor Rebekah Brooks to go,
:07:03. > :07:13.Murdoch today took the nuclear option and closed the paper. PR
:07:13. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:21.impresario Max Clifford thinks many I don't think anybody realised that
:07:21. > :07:25.when the News of the World started damaging ordinary people it would
:07:25. > :07:28.lead to their demise, so it is a warning for the whole of Fleet
:07:28. > :07:32.Street and also it is something which I think is going to frighten
:07:32. > :07:36.a lot of other people in Fleet Street working on other papers. My
:07:36. > :07:40.belief is that a lot of them are up to all kinds of very similar things
:07:40. > :07:45.for many, many years. When I found out the News of the World had been
:07:45. > :07:52.hacking my phone, I took them on legally at a time nobody else would,
:07:52. > :07:56.after a lot of time and a long battle they put their hands up and
:07:56. > :08:01.apologised. Rebekah Brooks and myself sorted out a solution. She
:08:01. > :08:05.is someone I have a lot of time for. I don't believe for one second she
:08:05. > :08:08.would have had inclination of these allegations concerning Milly Dowler
:08:08. > :08:14.that her phone was being hacked. There are lots of things that
:08:14. > :08:19.national newspaper editors aren't aware of. I have done deals with
:08:19. > :08:28.News Editors for 40-odd years, many of which the editor of that paper
:08:28. > :08:32.wasn't aware of. less and less people are buying newspapers in
:08:32. > :08:36.this country, so the pressure for journalists gets greater and
:08:36. > :08:41.greater. We desperately need a very strong and totally independent
:08:41. > :08:45.Press Complaints Commission. That is the best chance we have got of
:08:45. > :08:48.getting a free, healthy press and respecting the right of every
:08:48. > :08:53.individual's privacy. I don't think it will happen. I would love to
:08:53. > :08:56.think it might. I do think the current climate out there might
:08:56. > :09:01.just encourage politicians knowing they have the support of the
:09:01. > :09:06.British public because they like to do what makes them popular and make
:09:06. > :09:10.this come about. The end of the News of the World sends out
:09:10. > :09:14.shockwaves throughout Fleet Street and a lot of other editors of other
:09:14. > :09:19.newspapers I would have thought now would be very worried as to their
:09:19. > :09:21.future. Max Clifford power-broking in his office in central London
:09:21. > :09:30.there, now joins us in our power- sapping little Westminster studio.
:09:30. > :09:35.Max, welcome. Why has Rupert Murdoch closed the News of the
:09:35. > :09:40.World? What's come out in the last few
:09:40. > :09:45.days is something which has shocked and disgusted most people out there.
:09:45. > :09:48.I don't think they were that bothered about stars, celebrities,
:09:48. > :09:52.politicians having their phones hacked. The attitude was they use
:09:52. > :09:59.the media all the time so when the media uses them, even though they
:09:59. > :10:03.have overstepped the mark, no problems. Was the reputation beyond
:10:03. > :10:06.repair? The damage that it was doing to the rest of the
:10:06. > :10:11.organisation potentially meant that in their view it was a sensible
:10:11. > :10:14.thing to do. The cancer was totally destroying the News of the World
:10:14. > :10:18.because the public were turning against them in droves over the
:10:18. > :10:22.last few days and that cancer was starting to spread to the rest of
:10:22. > :10:30.the organisation so cut it out and hopefully that will stop it.
:10:30. > :10:37.enormity of this decision is not appreciated. This was the first
:10:37. > :10:42.newspaper he bought in this country? This was his first love.
:10:42. > :10:46.He closed it? That shows how seriously worried he is about
:10:46. > :10:49.what's gone on and what is happening and reaction from the
:10:49. > :10:53.brush public to these accusations. They are at the moment just
:10:53. > :11:00.accusations. A lot of the journalists tonight in WAPing on
:11:00. > :11:04.the News of the World and on the Sun -- Wappin on the News of the
:11:04. > :11:08.World and on The Sun, they think their newspaper has been sacrificed
:11:08. > :11:13.to save one woman, Rebekah Brooks? No, I don't see that. I can
:11:13. > :11:16.understand why they might. I think that it's been sacrificed to save
:11:16. > :11:22.damage for the organisation of News International and News Corp
:11:22. > :11:26.worldwide. Why is she still in her job? She was the editor when the
:11:26. > :11:33.Milly Dowler thing happened? offered to resign. Why wasn't it
:11:33. > :11:39.accepted? You would have to ask Rupert Murdoch. People being fired
:11:39. > :11:46.tonight, most of them are innocent, most of them weren't there in the
:11:46. > :11:52.News of the World when it was at its worst? She was the boss. They
:11:52. > :11:56.are fired, she's got her job? ask me to explain... You have put
:11:56. > :12:00.up a strong defence of her in the past? I have said because I don't...
:12:00. > :12:04.You don't believe she should? don't believe she had any
:12:04. > :12:08.inclination... Yet everyone else should? That is not my suggestion.
:12:08. > :12:14.That is Rupert Murdoch's decision. Rupert Murdoch's decision is that
:12:14. > :12:18.is the best thing for him to do, not my decision. I don't think that
:12:18. > :12:22.Rebekah Wade, Rebekah Brooks, deserves to be sacked because of
:12:22. > :12:26.this. Was he wrong to close the News of the World? Yes, I do. The
:12:26. > :12:30.people that need to be punished are those that are responsible and the
:12:30. > :12:37.weren't responsible. Does the closure of the News of the World,
:12:37. > :12:45.is that a sign of panic on behalf of Murdoch, or is it a
:12:45. > :12:50.masterstroke? He might have meant it to look almost philanthropic. It
:12:50. > :12:53.looks cynical. It looks ruthless which are things that you attach to
:12:53. > :12:56.Murdoch. I can't help thinking it's got more to do with the BSkyB
:12:56. > :13:01.decision. The money isn't in newspapers, it is in television.
:13:01. > :13:06.Those 61% of the shares that he doesn't own, I think this is -
:13:06. > :13:12.there is an element of cynicism to it. There will be another Sunday
:13:12. > :13:19.paper replacing it. Dave Wood, the political editor, a man I admire
:13:19. > :13:23.and like, I think it's... A masterstroke or a sign of panic?
:13:23. > :13:27.think it's quite bold. I think one should remember in all of this that
:13:27. > :13:37.Murdoch has been extraordinary figure in media innovation. The
:13:37. > :13:40.move to Wapping, the invention of Sky, and the Sky Box, the pay walls,
:13:40. > :13:44.all of these have been immense media innovations. This is a bold
:13:44. > :13:48.stroke. What we are witnessing here is North Korean justice. You may
:13:48. > :13:54.know that you can go to jail for the sins of your grandfather in
:13:54. > :14:00.North Korea. The News of the World's staff are now being fired.
:14:00. > :14:03.I am surprised at Max's defence of Rebekah Brooks. The fact she made a
:14:03. > :14:09.settlement should have led her surely to question what else had
:14:09. > :14:15.been going on in the newspaper. Did she think - did she not think I
:14:15. > :14:21.might be in here for a number of millions of pounds.? Why did she
:14:21. > :14:24.not investigate what went on? Any minister would have had to walk the
:14:24. > :14:29.plank if this went on his department. If something happens in
:14:29. > :14:37.your department, even if you didn't know about it, you are responsible.
:14:37. > :14:41.I think it is incredible... believe Rebekah has instituted an
:14:41. > :14:45.investigation and the reason why people have been suspended and the
:14:45. > :14:49.reason why people have been arrested is because of what she has
:14:49. > :14:59.uncovered and revealed, or what she under her lead has led to the
:14:59. > :15:01.
:15:01. > :15:06.police. The police are investigating themselves.
:15:06. > :15:10.Supposedly different policemen are investigating different policemen
:15:10. > :15:15.who have been bribed. activities that we are largely
:15:15. > :15:21.talking about are the activities that happened under somebody else's
:15:21. > :15:25.editorship. That's the way News International has presented it. In
:15:25. > :15:29.James Murdoch's statement, he says in 2006 these things should have
:15:29. > :15:39.been investigated because people have been sent to jail. Rupert
:15:39. > :15:42.
:15:42. > :15:48.Murdoch's attempt is to begin the Max, how worried should other
:15:48. > :15:53.tabloids, indeed just other editors, be? In my view extremely, because
:15:53. > :15:56.according to everything I discovered during the time that I
:15:56. > :16:00.was investigating and taken on the News of the World, all kinds of
:16:00. > :16:02.information was passed on to me from the police and other sources
:16:02. > :16:09.which showed that it was widespread in Fleet Street for many, many
:16:09. > :16:14.years and that's what I believe. Right. It's not just Murdoch, but
:16:14. > :16:18.the 2006 Commissioner's report revealed that it was widespread,
:16:18. > :16:22.that getting information by illegal means and paying in situations
:16:22. > :16:28.where it's illegal to pay was rampant in Fleet Street. Why didn't
:16:28. > :16:33.your government do anything about it? Well, if you go back to when I
:16:33. > :16:39.was Home Secretary in 2009, you referred earlier on to that, the
:16:39. > :16:44.only newspaper that was reporting this was The Guardian. No-one else.
:16:44. > :16:47.But you had the Information Commissioner's report, which I
:16:47. > :16:52.would suggest as Home Secretary is more important than what The
:16:52. > :16:56.Guardian was writing, and no matter how good the paper was, you had an
:16:56. > :17:01.official report. Yes, we did and we should have done more with the
:17:01. > :17:08.report. You didn't do anything with it. But the point about what you
:17:08. > :17:13.can do - if we can called a public inquiry in 200 on the basis of when
:17:13. > :17:17.the Met police were saying there are no other cases. We have banged
:17:17. > :17:25.two people up and we have looked at it all, when one newspaper was
:17:25. > :17:29.covering it, there wasn't the same atmosphere around. I put it to you,
:17:29. > :17:36.there was no appetite from your government under Mr Blair or Mr
:17:36. > :17:38.Brown, because both your leaders were cosying up to Mr Murdoch. The
:17:38. > :17:45.door was like a revolving door at Downing Street. I don't think that
:17:45. > :17:52.is fair. If we know then what we had known now -- But you had the
:17:52. > :17:57.report. It was talking about the general approach to Rippa. There
:17:57. > :18:01.was no Milly Dowler or victims of the Soham girls, none of that
:18:01. > :18:07.emerging then and all of the reports were saying there were two
:18:07. > :18:12.people involved and it didn't go any wider than that. Did you ever
:18:12. > :18:16.discuss this with Gordon Brown? We have got reports that suggest
:18:16. > :18:20.there are rampant illegal practises going on at the heart of our
:18:20. > :18:24.national press, shouldn't we be doing something about it? No. In
:18:24. > :18:28.fact, I was very careful not to discuss this with the Prime
:18:28. > :18:31.Minister. It was a Home Secretary's responsibility and the issue of
:18:31. > :18:35.Coulson actually being the Leader of the Opposition's press secretary
:18:35. > :18:40.actually muddied the water, because it would have looked, if we were
:18:40. > :18:44.talking about this in the sense of how can we take action, as if we
:18:44. > :18:48.were using our high offices for that. Do you regret you didn't do
:18:48. > :18:52.more, not you personally? As I said in Parliament on Wednesday, a
:18:52. > :18:55.public inquiry might be uncomfortable for me and everyone
:18:55. > :18:59.and looking back and I've been back to look at the papers, I can't see
:18:59. > :19:04.on the evidence at the time that if I had called an inquiry and we are
:19:04. > :19:08.waiting for the DPP's inquiry and the report at the time, I can't see
:19:08. > :19:13.that it would have made sense on the information we had at the time.
:19:14. > :19:21.Brief thought. I think the line of questioning to Alan is perfectly
:19:21. > :19:25.reasonable, but the prosecution is not matters for Government
:19:25. > :19:29.ministers. It's for the police. What we know is that there were
:19:29. > :19:34.piles of evidence available to the police, which the police not only
:19:34. > :19:38.sat upon, but denied having. It's the role of the police is at least
:19:38. > :19:42.as questionable as the role of the News of the World. It's as big a
:19:42. > :19:48.crisis for the police it is for the News of the World. Is this a
:19:48. > :19:58.watershed for what we have traditionally thought of as red-top
:19:58. > :20:03.tabloid journalism? Yes, I think it is. I think it's depending on how
:20:03. > :20:06.close you get. I think the police are being told just look at News of
:20:06. > :20:10.the World. -- News International. Leave everybody else alone. Who is
:20:11. > :20:14.telling them? Whoever is in charge. Whoever is running the show. That's
:20:14. > :20:17.what they're saying to me, because I've had the conversation with them,
:20:17. > :20:22.the police so many times and clearly they are not interested at
:20:22. > :20:26.the moment. OK. We'll see if that sticks. Thank you for joining us on
:20:26. > :20:30.a momentous day for British journalism. Now, it may be late,
:20:30. > :20:34.but you know the routine, you run the fingers down the side of the
:20:34. > :20:39.sofa cushions. Yes, you'll reach and find that emergency bottle of
:20:39. > :20:44.the Blue stuff. You know it's there. Any way, you need it, because
:20:44. > :20:49.coming up star of the silver screen and golden oldie, Sylvia Syms will
:20:49. > :20:55.be talking about society's attitudes towards the elderly. If
:20:55. > :21:02.you want to moan on and on and on and on and on about tonight's show,
:21:02. > :21:11.do what the new BBC chairman does, post your comments on our
:21:11. > :21:15.interwebsite. Keep your eye out for Honkers Chris. Evening chairman.
:21:15. > :21:20.Don't buy British, high British. That was the cry from Iain Duncan
:21:20. > :21:28.Smith last week, who says that UK businesses should employ more UK
:21:28. > :21:32.workers. Wouldn't say that too loudly in Derby, Mr IDS, where the
:21:32. > :21:37.last train-making factory is to shed 1400 jobs, after losing a
:21:37. > :21:44.Government job to -- contract to a German rival. Who says we never
:21:44. > :21:47.make anything in this country. We sent The Guardian's Nick Watt to
:21:47. > :21:57.where British Rail ways are still the envy of the world, to a model
:21:57. > :21:58.
:21:58. > :22:04.village! Wait, wait, wait! Down here at Westminster Railways it's
:22:05. > :22:09.been a pretty momentous week. Events have moved at the speed of a
:22:09. > :22:19.high-speed German locomotive. Rather than the sedate pace of
:22:19. > :22:30.
:22:30. > :22:35.The week started off looking, well, frankly, a bit dull. There was a
:22:35. > :22:38.bit of Joshing of Ed Miliband after a robotic television interview,
:22:38. > :22:44.which prompted more criticism of his leadership, but the main story
:22:44. > :22:48.was going to be a report into the funding of long-term care for the
:22:48. > :22:52.elderly by the economist Andrew Dilnot. This is about all of our
:22:52. > :22:55.lives. It's great we are living longer and we should celebrate that.
:22:55. > :23:05.People are frightened about the possibility of growing older,
:23:05. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:16.because they don't know what will happen if they need care. All our
:23:16. > :23:21.political leaders agree on the need for change as we cope with an
:23:21. > :23:26.every-ageing population, but they are spooked by the 1.7 billion cost
:23:26. > :23:29.of the proposals. Expect warm words about the need for cross-party
:23:29. > :23:38.talks and the sound of knives sharpening in the background just
:23:38. > :23:43.in case they fail. Then came the story which changed the course of
:23:43. > :23:47.the week and shook the political and media classes. The Guardian
:23:47. > :23:52.reported that the News of the World had hacked into the phone of Milly
:23:52. > :23:57.Dowler. This was a change-making moment that took this long-running
:23:57. > :24:02.saga out of the world of showbiz and politics and woke the British
:24:03. > :24:06.people up to tabloid tactics condemned by the Times as
:24:06. > :24:12.reprehensible. Ed Miliband was quick to call for Rebekah Brooks,
:24:12. > :24:15.editor at the time, to resign. course, she should consider her
:24:15. > :24:19.position. This is about the culture and practises that were obviously
:24:19. > :24:29.going on at that newspaper, the News of the World, over a sustained
:24:29. > :24:31.
:24:31. > :24:41.period. That was quite a step for Ed Miliband. Not you since the
:24:41. > :24:43.
:24:43. > :24:47.Whapping despite made a challenge to the mighty Murdoch empire. The
:24:47. > :24:53.established order in which the party in power and the party hoping
:24:53. > :24:58.to be in power pay homage to the grumpy Australian, well that has
:24:58. > :25:02.been ruptured for good. It overshadowed the Prime Minister's
:25:02. > :25:07.visit to Afghanistan, where he had hoped to focus on his plans to
:25:07. > :25:11.withdraw 500 British troops next year. If they are true, this is a
:25:11. > :25:15.truly dreadful act and a truly dreadful situation. What I've read
:25:15. > :25:18.in the papers is quite, quite shocking. Back home, David Cameron
:25:18. > :25:25.tried to take the initiative at Prime Minister's questions, by
:25:25. > :25:29.agreeing to hold a public inquiry. But the exchanges heated up when Ed
:25:29. > :25:33.Miliband demanded that Rupert Murdoch's attempt to take full
:25:33. > :25:36.control of BSkyB should be referred to the Competition Commission.
:25:36. > :25:42.public will react with disbelief if next week the decision is taken to
:25:42. > :25:46.go ahead with this deal, at a time when News International is subject
:25:46. > :25:50.to a major criminal investigation. What we have done here is follow,
:25:50. > :25:53.absolutely to the letter, the correct, legal processes. That is
:25:53. > :25:58.what the Government has to do. My Right Honourable friend, the
:25:58. > :26:04.Secretary of State, is in a quasieye judicial role and he has
:26:04. > :26:10.to follow that. Miliband, who had been struggling, did little better
:26:10. > :26:15.than this little chuff, chuff and turned into an InterCity 125.
:26:15. > :26:25.has to accept he made a catastrophic error of judgment by
:26:25. > :26:34.
:26:34. > :26:38.bringing Andy Coulson into the One disgruntled source at News
:26:38. > :26:42.International told me that the Prime Minister had shown hubris in
:26:42. > :26:47.bringing Andy Coulson into Downing Street with him even as the net
:26:47. > :26:52.tightened. My source also told me that the Prime Minister had
:26:52. > :26:56.underestimated the determination and the ability of The Guardian and
:26:56. > :27:02.Labour backbenchers to pursue this matter. Mr James Murdoch is the
:27:02. > :27:06.chairman. It is clear, now, that he's personally and without board
:27:06. > :27:11.approval, authorised money to be paid by his company to silence
:27:11. > :27:14.people who had been hacked and to cover up criminal behaviour within
:27:14. > :27:18.his organisation. Just 24 hours later James Murdoch issued a
:27:18. > :27:22.statement saying yes, he had approved out-of-court settlements,
:27:22. > :27:26.but added he didn't know the full picture. Theres with a particularly
:27:26. > :27:33.settlement that I authorised and I've said was made with information
:27:33. > :27:36.that was incomplete. I acted on the advice of executives and lawyers,
:27:36. > :27:40.within incomplete investigations and that's a matter of real regret
:27:40. > :27:46.for me. Then came the killer blow - the News of the World, well, that's
:27:46. > :27:54.going to be shunted off the tracks. Oh, watch out, here comes the Sun
:27:55. > :27:58.on Sunday. As for Gordon the grumpy engine, it's been a week of mixed
:27:58. > :28:08.emotions. He thinks he would still be running the railways if these
:28:08. > :28:13.
:28:13. > :28:18.allegations had come out 18 months ago. Britain's railways used to be
:28:18. > :28:28.the envy of the world. A bit like our press. This has been a great
:28:28. > :28:29.
:28:29. > :28:33.train journey, but look, there's Michael pour -- pour till low. --
:28:33. > :28:37.Michael Portillo. Harry Potter joins us now. Welcome to the
:28:37. > :28:44.programme. Thank you for that report. Michael, how bad is this
:28:44. > :28:48.for David Cameron? Bad. It's described as a catastrophic
:28:48. > :28:54.misjudgment to appoint Mr Coulson and if the reports this evening
:28:54. > :28:59.that Andy Coulson will be arrested are true, well, - even if they're
:28:59. > :29:02.not, it's pretty bad. The Guardian is reporting that he is to be
:29:02. > :29:05.arrested tomorrow, Friday. That's right. It's on the front page of
:29:05. > :29:10.the guard guard. The main story is the end of the News of the World,
:29:10. > :29:14.but the second story that Andy Coulson will be rested in the
:29:14. > :29:19.morning. One senior Tory Cabinet minister said to me tonight when I
:29:19. > :29:22.told him that's what you were reporting, he said that's a
:29:22. > :29:29.disaster, because it puts the Tories back into the frame.
:29:29. > :29:34.Absolutely. Peter Oborne was saying is this David Cameron's David Kelly
:29:34. > :29:38.moment? Obviously the death -- sorry the suicide of the Government
:29:38. > :29:41.weapons inspector. The point about David Kelly, that was an absolute
:29:41. > :29:46.cut-through moment where people thought this is a Government that
:29:46. > :29:51.took us to war falsely and the staff basically hounded a man not
:29:51. > :29:56.deliberately, but hounded a man to his death. I do not believe this is
:29:56. > :30:00.quite at the cut-through moment like that, but there are big, big
:30:00. > :30:06.questions about the judgment of David Cameron in hiring Andy
:30:06. > :30:11.Coulson a few months after he had to resign one one of his reporters
:30:11. > :30:14.was jailed and then taking him into Downing Street after my editor had
:30:14. > :30:24.warned him, as my editor said on Newsnight tonight, watch out, Andy
:30:24. > :30:26.
:30:26. > :30:32.Coulson is going to be called as a Is an issue which is good and bad.
:30:32. > :30:35.In a situation like that, the Prime Minister ought to be on the side of
:30:35. > :30:39.good. He has himself in this complicated system where he
:30:39. > :30:44.employed one of the people who is involved in all of this. You think
:30:44. > :30:48.it was a misjudgment to hire Andy Coulson? Yes. I believe it must
:30:48. > :30:53.have been borne out of a desperation which the Conservative
:30:53. > :30:58.Party felt at the time. They needed an Alastair Campbell. They didn't
:30:58. > :31:05.know how they were going to win the next election. Someone who came
:31:05. > :31:09.from a different background? And by all accounts he did the job
:31:09. > :31:15.superbly well. How does David Cameron insulate himself? The
:31:15. > :31:19.Guardian stories are rife. This is yet - News of the World closes on
:31:19. > :31:25.Thursday, Prime Minister's former Press Secretary arrested on Friday.
:31:25. > :31:29.This is page one, page one, page one? Absolutely. One must remember
:31:29. > :31:33.to some extent this is what News International has also orchestrated
:31:33. > :31:39.because rather than throwing Rebekah Brooks to the wolves, they
:31:39. > :31:44.have thrown Andy Coulson to the wolves. News International released
:31:44. > :31:49.e-mails that implicated him in authorising payments to policemen.
:31:49. > :31:54.This... You lot are reporting this because of the hacking? Yes, the
:31:54. > :31:57.payments to the police is at the heart of it all. I was talking to
:31:57. > :32:02.senior Conservatives and what they are saying is we don't know where
:32:02. > :32:06.this is going to go. We can't prejudice any criminal inquiry but
:32:06. > :32:11.if Andy Coulson is arrested, if he faces criminal charges, what is
:32:11. > :32:18.going to happen and ministers are scared. I quoted in that film there
:32:18. > :32:24.a source at News International who is saying it was hueb Rouse of
:32:24. > :32:31.David Cameron to appoint Andy Coulson. They came back and said,
:32:31. > :32:39."There, there, dear, dear, you are a little Guardian obsessive, this
:32:39. > :32:46.story should be on your media pages." Now, it has come obviously
:32:47. > :32:51.to the civil. This has the potential for serious embarrassment
:32:51. > :32:58.for the Prime Minister. We should not forget that your Government,
:32:58. > :33:07.not you personally, but under Mr Blair and Mr Brown, you all supped
:33:07. > :33:13.with a very short spoon with Andy Coulson, Rebekah Wade, James
:33:13. > :33:19.Murdoch... Yourself! You deal with the media. It is a very different
:33:19. > :33:24.thing. I don't remember you giving me any kind of spoon. I gave you an
:33:24. > :33:26.orange juice in 2007! It is a different thing to taking a former
:33:26. > :33:30.editor of the News of the World who resigned because this happened on
:33:30. > :33:35.his watch, making him your communications leader. Now he has
:33:35. > :33:39.been thrown to the wolves by News International, the News of the
:33:39. > :33:41.World has been thrown to the wolves. The only one that is still there is
:33:41. > :33:46.Rebekah Brooks. That is another problem for the Prime Minister.
:33:46. > :33:50.What he didn't do on Wednesday was say that she should consider her
:33:50. > :33:55.position. The change - this is the first time since the 1980s that the
:33:55. > :34:00.Opposition party has been willing to take on News International. Why
:34:00. > :34:04.is that happening? The Labour Party Conference, the evening of Gordon
:34:04. > :34:08.Brown's speech, the last one before the general election and The Sun
:34:08. > :34:12.binned him in a brutal way and Gordon Brown has not forgiven them
:34:12. > :34:17.and neither has the Labour Party. I'm told Mr Brown is helping to
:34:17. > :34:21.Stoke the fires a little bit. saying if this had come out 18
:34:21. > :34:26.months ago he could still be Prime Minister. I am sure he dreams of
:34:26. > :34:32.that every night. Is Ed Miliband right to burn his bridges with News
:34:32. > :34:37.International? Yes, Ed Miliband had a good Prime Minister's Questions,
:34:37. > :34:42.he was right. Cameron was right on one, the public inquiry. He thought
:34:42. > :34:48.that would give him an easy time. He was wrong on Rebekah Brooks and
:34:48. > :34:54.on BSkyB. That is the other problem for David Cameron. It is not just
:34:55. > :35:01.Andy Coulson's arrest tomorrow. lost his temper when Ed Miliband
:35:01. > :35:08.asked him about Andy Coulson. the Government in these
:35:08. > :35:12.circumstances really sit back and let the go-ahead take place for the
:35:12. > :35:16.rest of BSkyB to fall into Mr Murdoch's remit? I take the view
:35:16. > :35:20.that Alan hinted at earlier. I think the takeover of BSkyB is
:35:20. > :35:27.perfectly possible with everything that happened at the beginning of
:35:27. > :35:31.this, of the last decade. What I think raises a real difficulty is
:35:31. > :35:35.Mr Murdoch admitting that he made payments which apparently weren't
:35:35. > :35:40.authorised by the board to try and close down this inquiry. That does
:35:40. > :35:45.look to me like the sort of issue that raises the fit and proper
:35:45. > :35:48.person issue. Is closing the News of the World, given everything it's
:35:49. > :35:55.been accused of, does that make Rupert Murdoch a fit and proper
:35:55. > :36:00.person to hold Sky? Of course not. I doubt if he was naive enough to
:36:00. > :36:07.think that that was the case. I think he thought it would help, as
:36:07. > :36:14.Michael said it's a dramatic big step. But it's not going to work.
:36:14. > :36:24.Let me ask you this bigger question. Since Harold Wilson in the late
:36:24. > :36:27.
:36:27. > :36:31.'60s, Mr Wilson, Mrs Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown,
:36:31. > :36:35.now David Cameron have all sought his support because they thought it
:36:35. > :36:39.would help make them Prime Minister. Do you think any politician today
:36:39. > :36:43.would want to campaign on having the back of Rupert Murdoch's
:36:43. > :36:47.support? Indeed. Absolutely, it changes everything. I always
:36:47. > :36:53.thought that people, politicians shouldn't be scared of Rupert
:36:53. > :36:57.Murdoch. That was John Major's great problem. The point about
:36:57. > :37:04.Rupert Murdoch is Rupert Murdoch backs winners. Why did he back Tony
:37:04. > :37:08.Blair? Because he was going to win. Is his influence over in British
:37:08. > :37:16.politics? Ed Miliband took that approach from the time he was
:37:16. > :37:24.leader, even before... Is it over? Yes, it's over. It's transformed.
:37:24. > :37:29.All right. We will have to leave it there. Good to see you on the sofa.
:37:29. > :37:33.Now, some people think speaking of sofas this week's sofa is an
:37:33. > :37:42.expensive retirement home for political geriatrics. Some people
:37:42. > :37:47.have a point! Alan is forever reminiscing about the good old days.
:37:47. > :37:55.Michael is ringing his bell demanding one of his nurses puts
:37:55. > :38:05.him to bed! So we decided it was high time to put old people in this
:38:05. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:17.We are living longer, but there is a high price to pay. So does this
:38:17. > :38:20.week's report offers a solution and protects people's assets. We could
:38:20. > :38:24.take away the fear that people would lose everything they have
:38:24. > :38:28.built up and people seem anxious that they might lose all Ofili the
:38:28. > :38:38.value of their house. Has the report missed a trick by glancing
:38:38. > :38:39.
:38:39. > :38:43.over the quality of care the elderly receive? The unveiling of
:38:43. > :38:48.Ronald Reagan's statue reminded us that age is no barrier. In the UK,
:38:48. > :38:58.Party Leaders seem to be getting younger and wiser? Can they be in
:38:58. > :38:58.
:38:58. > :39:08.tune with the issues of the older generation? So have family
:39:08. > :39:10.
:39:10. > :39:17.structures altered the way society views the elderly. The wonderful
:39:17. > :39:23.Sylvia Syms joins us. Welcome to This Week. Great to see you. Are we
:39:23. > :39:30.as a society, do we now value the opinion of older people less than
:39:30. > :39:36.we used to? I don't know about less. I think it is different. I look
:39:36. > :39:42.around and I see a great many old men in rather important positions.
:39:42. > :39:45.Don't see as many old women. Yet, if you are running a charity, you
:39:45. > :39:51.won't get anything done unless you have the women behind you. We are
:39:51. > :39:56.the workers in the background. So it is not enough respect for
:39:56. > :40:00.anybody over a certain age. But the young, the very young can be
:40:00. > :40:04.respectful and very affectionate. Television and film kind of
:40:04. > :40:11.encourages that prejudice? Yes. Mostly old women you see in
:40:11. > :40:17.television, they are some old loony or the dreadful mother-in-law. I'm
:40:17. > :40:24.definitely an old loony, but I'm not yet a mother-in-law. There is
:40:24. > :40:30.still time! Do you think - have politicians grasped the demographic
:40:30. > :40:35.importance of the older population now? They are grasping it, I think.
:40:35. > :40:38.Are they behind the curve? I'm not sure they are. The great thing
:40:38. > :40:43.about New Labour and everything that's happened since is the
:40:43. > :40:47.movement of politics towards the middle-classes. They were made up
:40:47. > :40:51.of these older people. People with rather Conservative middle of the
:40:51. > :40:56.road views are very largely these older people. I think it has been
:40:56. > :41:01.recognised. Explain to me this paradox, the young country, the
:41:01. > :41:05.United States, has lots of old politicians. The old country, the
:41:05. > :41:10.United Kingdom, our politicians seem to be getting younger and
:41:10. > :41:14.younger. If you hit 60 as a Jack Straw, you are regarded as out of
:41:14. > :41:19.it. In America, you are just getting going. Not the heads of
:41:19. > :41:24.businesses. If you look around the boards - and I do occasionally get
:41:24. > :41:29.invited to board meetings - many of them are quite grey-haired and
:41:29. > :41:34.elderly. More so than politicians. Our politicians seem to be a bit
:41:34. > :41:44.young? They have got younger. Isn't that because we are getting older?
:41:44. > :41:44.
:41:44. > :41:47.Yes! No, no. They are. Do we value experience less than we used to?
:41:47. > :41:54.Definitely. You have this extraordinary thing, you go to do a
:41:54. > :41:57.play or a television and you find the person in charge of you has
:41:57. > :42:04.just come up from the floor, has no idea what you have done, no idea of
:42:04. > :42:09.your career, can't discuss anything very much, it's rather scary. You
:42:09. > :42:18.think do I have to retrain to be able to speak to these people?
:42:18. > :42:23.Yet... Students are not like that! The "grey vote", in America it is
:42:23. > :42:29.becoming more important than ever. People are living longer than they
:42:29. > :42:34.did so older people vote more than younger people, they should be the
:42:34. > :42:37.most potent demographic group of the lot, yet they don't seem to be
:42:37. > :42:42.able to galvanise themselves? don't know if we have them rallying
:42:42. > :42:45.yet. I felt at the last election, we had to get them active. They are
:42:45. > :42:51.terribly active in local things like they go and take extra courses,
:42:51. > :42:59.they go to line dancing, you would be amazed at the things that go on.
:42:59. > :43:05.People take degrees when they are 75! I do think we should organise
:43:05. > :43:08.them more. Every election coming up, older people will become more and
:43:08. > :43:12.more important in determining the outcome? Yes. If you look at what
:43:12. > :43:16.is happening at the moment, trying to get the fiscal deficit down,
:43:16. > :43:20.many people will say that every group in society has been affected
:43:20. > :43:24.except pensioners. Politicians are careful not to go anywhere near
:43:25. > :43:30.winter fuel allowance, not to go anywhere near Pension Credits. That
:43:30. > :43:37.is because of the power of the "grey vote". I will let that hang