:00:24. > :00:26.MUSIC: Dallas them a tune. Tonight, on This Week as Dallas plans a
:00:27. > :00:30.return to our screens, we tune in to the Westminster soap opera
:00:31. > :00:33.to the Westminster soap opera that's gripped the nation. As the
:00:33. > :00:36.world's most powerful media mogul Rupert Murdoch drops his bid for
:00:36. > :00:46.BSkyB, have the Westenders of Parliament Square finally found a
:00:46. > :00:46.
:00:46. > :00:51.voice? The will of Parliament was clear. The will of the public was
:00:51. > :00:54.clear. And now Britain's most powerful media owner has had to
:00:54. > :01:00.bend to that will. Tabloid critic, The Daily Mail's Quentin Lett's,
:01:00. > :01:04.has been watching this drama unfold. There has been a right old dog
:01:04. > :01:07.fight between Parliament and Rupert Murdoch. But which one has gone
:01:07. > :01:10.down in flames? There's nothing like a returning character to spice
:01:10. > :01:17.up a storyline and Gordon Brown chose his moment to make a guest
:01:17. > :01:22.appearance. News International descended from the gutter to the
:01:22. > :01:27.sewer. The tragedy is that they let the rats out of the sewers.
:01:27. > :01:32.Mirror's, Kevin Maguire, looks at the settling of old scores.
:01:32. > :01:35.bomb Brown was back to flattened a few old enemy And Westminster may
:01:35. > :01:43.be obsessed with this cliff hanger, but should we really be watching
:01:43. > :01:49.the dramas unfold in other parts of the world? Targets. Channel Four's
:01:49. > :01:54.leading man, Jon Snow, looks further afield. Is this the year of
:01:54. > :02:04.revulsion, the Arab world has been rising up against dictators.
:02:04. > :02:06.someone tell me, who did shoot JR? Evening all, welcome to This Week.
:02:06. > :02:11.A simple tale of plain Westminster folk, with storylines even a
:02:11. > :02:14.Coronation Street scriptwriter might think twice about. And with
:02:14. > :02:24.The News Of The World now no longer available even as fish-and-chip
:02:24. > :02:24.
:02:24. > :02:27.paper. And Rupert Murdoch's takeover of BskyB reduced to toast.
:02:27. > :02:29.The plot has taken another jaw- dropping twist. In a development
:02:30. > :02:32.nobody predicted, not even Mystic Meg, Gordon Brown yesterday took
:02:33. > :02:35.time out from his tax-payer funded retirement to grace us with his
:02:35. > :02:41.presence in the Commons chamber! That's twice in twelve months
:02:41. > :02:43.folks! I call that value for money for the good folk of Kirkcaldy. And
:02:43. > :02:46.the former Great Leader didn't disappoint, claiming some things
:02:46. > :02:51.are: "neither cosy nor comfortable" - and he wasn't talking about the
:02:51. > :02:56.This Week sofa. He was, in fact - and with a totally straight face -
:02:56. > :02:59.referring to his long relationship with the Murdoch empire. Which is
:02:59. > :03:02.odd, because cosy and comfortable seems an apt way to describe his
:03:02. > :03:04.wife throwing a pyjama party in 2008 for Rupert's wife, Wendi,
:03:05. > :03:14.Rupert's daughter Elizabeth - oh yes, and Rupert's chief lieutenant,
:03:15. > :03:17.
:03:17. > :03:19.Rebekah Brooks. In fact, there's only one thing that looks more cosy
:03:19. > :03:26.and comfortable than Sarah Brown's girly night-in and that's Rupert
:03:27. > :03:29.Murdoch's astonishing collection of leisurewear tracksuits! So let's
:03:29. > :03:33.pray the Culture Select Committee get some answers to the biggest
:03:33. > :03:35.mystery of all - why on earth has Rupert Murdoch been running around
:03:35. > :03:43.London closing down newspapers dressed as Jimmy Saville, but
:03:43. > :03:46.without the cigar?! Speaking of those who nobody wants to see
:03:46. > :03:56.working up a sweat, I'm joined by two of Westminster's finest
:03:56. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :03:59.physical specimens. The Jane Fonda and Mr Motivator of late night chat.
:03:59. > :04:09.I speak, of course, of Michael Portillo and - back by absolutely
:04:09. > :04:11.
:04:11. > :04:17.no public demand whatsoever - Diane Abbott. Welcome to you both.
:04:18. > :04:23.Michael your moment. There have been so many. I will pick one that
:04:23. > :04:28.seeps trivial. The Sun had a headline, you're wrong Gordon.
:04:28. > :04:35.Despite what you have said about Gordon Brown, with which I agree,
:04:35. > :04:39.the fact the Sun chose to reveal the details of his son's illness I
:04:39. > :04:43.think was disreputable. They said there was no illegality involved.
:04:43. > :04:49.But in that article there was no hint that there might have been
:04:49. > :04:53.immorality and inhumanity. That is where this debate has got to.
:04:53. > :04:58.Gordon Brown's speech was over the top, talking about the gutter and
:04:58. > :05:04.the rats. But still the idea that these newspapers fell short of
:05:04. > :05:08.their own very high standards is rubbish. These newspapers did
:05:08. > :05:14.operate on the basis of inhumanity and often immorality and the only
:05:15. > :05:20.thing that is new is illegality. The Sun only had the right to
:05:20. > :05:26.publish that story if the parents had given their consent. Why would
:05:26. > :05:32.you then stay best mates with a newspaper that does that to you?
:05:32. > :05:36.There are many versions of this. Gordon, people close to him, say at
:05:36. > :05:41.that point Rebekah Brooks said you will never become Prime Minister
:05:41. > :05:48.this way. If you don't understand you mustn't bust our scoops. The
:05:48. > :05:55.the idea that a child's illness a commercial property is repugnant
:05:55. > :06:00.That is the point I was making. Diane? I was in the chamber for
:06:00. > :06:04.Gordon's speech. We saw you looking up adoringly as you did in the old
:06:04. > :06:08.days. I know you're making a mock of it but to be there it was an
:06:08. > :06:16.extraordinary occasion. It was only the second time he had spoken. You
:06:16. > :06:20.knew he was to plunge a knife into Murdoch and the pain and the rage
:06:20. > :06:28.were absolutely genuine. It was a genuine parliamentary occasion.
:06:28. > :06:31.Thank you for you moments. Phew! It's been another intense week here
:06:31. > :06:35.in Westminster. In fact it's been a pretty hectic year - and it's only
:06:35. > :06:38.July! So as MPs prepare to head off on their hols, ahem, return to
:06:38. > :06:41.their all-consuming constituency work - Diane knows what I mean - we
:06:41. > :06:44.caught up with two people who've already fled the country. Looking
:06:44. > :06:48.back not just on this week, but also the year so far here's our
:06:48. > :06:58.very own odd couple - well apart from those two - the Mirror's Kevin
:06:58. > :07:09.
:07:09. > :07:15.Maguire and the Daily Mail's Come fly with me, let's fly away!
:07:15. > :07:21.It is 7.30 and Kevin and Quentin are running late. Come on man.
:07:21. > :07:27.can't believe that taxi driver put us on the hard shoulder. I told you
:07:27. > :07:34.not to tell anyone we're tabloid hacks. But we have not done
:07:34. > :07:39.anything! Check in for the flight to Mongolia closes in five minutes.
:07:39. > :07:46.I have seen things I never thought would happen. Ed Milliband said
:07:46. > :07:50.something and people listened. I can't bare to watch. The Prime
:07:50. > :07:58.Minister was wrong not to come to the House today. As on every
:07:58. > :08:03.occasion during this crisis he has failed to know show leadership.
:08:03. > :08:08.was in the cockpit. Cut class David Cameron behind. He kept the
:08:08. > :08:14.pressure on Andy Coulson, got his inquiry and he scuppered the BSkyB
:08:14. > :08:17.bid. But I reckon David Cameron just about pulled it back by Prime
:08:17. > :08:19.Minister's questions. Where was the public inquiry over the last ten
:08:19. > :08:22.years. We have a full on police investigation that will see
:08:23. > :08:28.prosecution and I hope convictions and we will have a public inquiry
:08:28. > :08:36.run by a judge to get to the bottom of this. That is the leadership I'm
:08:36. > :08:45.determined to provide. Today there is disruption to all Westminster
:08:45. > :08:49.flight s. Oh dear. It is causing headache for passengers and crew.
:08:49. > :08:54.Jeremy Hunt has ordered us to stack. He has had a clever strategy. It is
:08:54. > :09:00.called la la la, I'm not listening. To be fair he has been in a bind
:09:00. > :09:05.and he could have changed runway and referred the BSkyB bid to the
:09:06. > :09:10.Competition Commission and risked a judicial review or given it the go
:09:10. > :09:16.Aled and risked outrage. His solution. Wait for News
:09:16. > :09:20.International to make the decision for you. I am going to refer this
:09:20. > :09:25.to the Competition Commission with immediate effect and we will be
:09:25. > :09:32.writing to them today. But he was wrong if he thought that would draw
:09:32. > :09:37.a line under it. With the parties planning to vote against the deal
:09:37. > :09:45.and calls for News International to get the house in horder, News
:09:45. > :09:51.International cancelled the flight. There was 1-1 Vulcan droning over
:09:51. > :09:57.the horizon. I have set out the record of my desire to have a
:09:57. > :10:00.judicial inquiry. It was opposed by police and the Home Office. It was
:10:00. > :10:07.opposed by the civil service and it was not supported by the select
:10:07. > :10:13.committee of the day. Inside Westminster terminal one, Kevin and
:10:13. > :10:18.Quentin are still trying to check in Cancelled all together. I wish
:10:18. > :10:23.we xould say the same or the Brook. But it is Parliament reasserting
:10:23. > :10:28.itself. But some Tory MP will turn their sight on that other media
:10:28. > :10:31.jumbo jet - the BBC. I think if ministers has to record meetings
:10:31. > :10:37.with journalists I will go around saying good morning to Secretaries
:10:37. > :10:44.of state to add to their paperwork. But I suspect what will happen is
:10:44. > :10:50.we see more of the monkey and fewer of the organ grinders. Come on, we
:10:50. > :10:55.will miss our check in. Let's fly away. When we come back, flights to
:10:55. > :10:59.the eurozone and the Middle East are disrupt. The Chief Executive of
:10:59. > :11:08.Westminster airways finds the cash has run out and Quentin has a row
:11:08. > :11:16.at the check in. More of these two later. We're joined by stars of
:11:16. > :11:24.stage, screen and TV. Germain Greer and Jon snow welcome to our humble
:11:24. > :11:32.abode. Let me ask a straight forward question. Has Rupert
:11:32. > :11:42.Murdoch's spell, is his spell on British politics over? Yes.
:11:42. > :11:48.Diane Yes. Germaine Probably. We can all go home then. What does
:11:48. > :11:52.it mean if the spell is broken, Jon. How will that affect how
:11:52. > :11:58.politicians behave and what policies they stand for? I think
:11:58. > :12:02.the first thing is that I was speaking to Murdoch's biographer
:12:02. > :12:06.the other night and he said Murdoch doesn't have to explain anything.
:12:07. > :12:12.He speaks power to power. I think the power has collapsed and he is
:12:12. > :12:17.not proving good at... Speaking to anyone. And explaining anything. He
:12:17. > :12:24.is in the Wall Street journal today saying they made a few minor
:12:24. > :12:28.mistakes. The Wall Street journal that he owns. That affects the
:12:28. > :12:34.political classes, that is fascinating. Because they will
:12:34. > :12:40.start looking at the other papers. And the other papers will be found
:12:40. > :12:44.wanting. They are in some of Mulcaire's note and that lot hasn't
:12:44. > :12:50.been identified. It is a virus that spreads across the media? I think
:12:50. > :12:56.so, but I don't think anyone other than the daily mail has exerted an
:12:56. > :13:01.extraordinary psychological effect on governments, and the editor has
:13:01. > :13:08.had access, but don't think that the Mail has wielded the actual
:13:08. > :13:13.political power that Mr Murdoch has wielded. I think you're spot on on
:13:13. > :13:19.that. But it is the case that politicians want to curry favour
:13:19. > :13:24.with the Mail as well. As far as Murdoch, he has been the person to
:13:24. > :13:30.court. You court him personally. He is very agreeable to deal with. But
:13:30. > :13:35.you want him on side for whatever project. Did you you? Yes I courted
:13:35. > :13:39.him. All of that is broken now. Not only will you not pursue that route
:13:40. > :13:47.but you feel very wary about meeting Mr Murdoch. You have to
:13:47. > :13:53.account for it. Well you wouldn't. Well you wouldn't. That is a
:13:53. > :14:03.remarkable statement. Is it getting too easy to blame all of this on
:14:03. > :14:05.
:14:05. > :14:10.I can't help laughing because you know him better than almost anybody.
:14:10. > :14:15.I've said lots of words. I think we need to remember what he did. When
:14:15. > :14:20.Murdoch was really manipulating his papers, as political influences,
:14:20. > :14:24.first of all, he created Mrs Thatcher. Mrs Thatcher didn't know
:14:25. > :14:28.what she was doing until the News Of The World taught her how to be
:14:28. > :14:34.house wife's superstar and did the stoirz - I understand all that. I
:14:34. > :14:40.don't want to go through a whole history. It's important. We'll be
:14:40. > :14:44.here all night doing that. What I'm saying is it right to make Murdoch
:14:44. > :14:48.this maligned character or is that too easy? We're running a risk of
:14:48. > :14:52.making him into some kind of Superman, as if he has his finger
:14:52. > :14:55.on everything that happened -- happens in all his many organs,
:14:55. > :14:59.which I think he probably doesn't. He's probably more concerned about
:15:00. > :15:04.China than the News Of The World. think we're talking about the
:15:04. > :15:12.misjudgment of power in the political classes and the police
:15:12. > :15:16.classes. This was not a clever idea. Just as it's not a clever idea to
:15:16. > :15:21.Courtney of these people. Historically one recognises that
:15:21. > :15:25.politicians have always courted media barrons. But this was a media
:15:25. > :15:33.barron who wasn't British and didn't have roots here or pay tax
:15:33. > :15:39.here. We had no leverage on him. Westminster, there is a sense that
:15:39. > :15:44.a spell has been broken. It may be wrong to attribute all the problems
:15:44. > :15:50.between proprietors and politics to Murdoch, but definitely an era is
:15:50. > :15:56.over. What is it that MPs want now? Are they out for revenge? Out for
:15:56. > :16:02.justice? Or now that he's down do they just like to give him a good
:16:02. > :16:06.kicking. No-one was prepared to kick him when he was up. I know,
:16:06. > :16:11.it's extraordinary. Even your glorious leader. There were people
:16:11. > :16:17.who were besty friends with Rebekah Wade who were mouthing off this
:16:17. > :16:23.week. They're trying to set the primacy of Parliament. That is what
:16:23. > :16:27.Parliament is for. Do you buy this thing that Parliament, a number of
:16:27. > :16:32.commentators have said after the mess of the expenses scandal,
:16:32. > :16:38.politicians' reputation in the dirt, suddenly like a Phoenix from the
:16:38. > :16:43.ashes... No I think you're oversentimentalising it. It's
:16:43. > :16:46.overpersonalised. It's very easy to hit on Murdoch. But the fact is
:16:46. > :16:50.he's provided ten million people with a service that they love,
:16:50. > :16:54.sport that they never had access to on this scale, you know, films,
:16:54. > :17:00.first runs and all the rest of it. One has to accept that in a very
:17:00. > :17:04.brilliant business. But what was wrong was the access that he was
:17:04. > :17:09.allowed in order to engineer it. What politicians now seem to do is
:17:09. > :17:14.reflect what the population feels, which is it isn't a good idea for
:17:14. > :17:18.anybody to wield the amount of power he does. We don't let Tesco's
:17:18. > :17:22.have that power on the High Street. They don't have 40% of the market
:17:22. > :17:26.why should we allow a media barron? It could result in a change of the
:17:26. > :17:31.political culture in this country, couldn't it? You could argue that
:17:31. > :17:35.it has already changed. The coalition means that even supposing
:17:35. > :17:39.that Murdoch wanted to put his weight behind somebody, he can't
:17:39. > :17:43.find that person to put his weight behind. He might argue it's behind
:17:43. > :17:47.Cameron, except it doesn't seem to be the way it's working out. Though
:17:47. > :17:52.I'm confessed bit startled by the closeness of Cameron to the whole
:17:52. > :17:56.Murdoch set up, or rather the Rebekah Brooks set up. That seems a
:17:56. > :17:59.bit odd to me. Because intimacy was never part of the deal. The deal
:17:59. > :18:05.before was about power. It was about putting people in the
:18:05. > :18:09.spotlight and delivering to them the readers of his paper. There's a
:18:09. > :18:12.very sad underbelly to this. This happens at the very moment when
:18:12. > :18:17.newspapers are in crisis, when cyberspace is invading the
:18:17. > :18:21.territory that newspapers once had. There is a tragic story of really
:18:21. > :18:26.vulnerable jobs now. All those 200 people on the News Of The World,
:18:26. > :18:30.they might some of them get a job at Sun. But the truth is that
:18:30. > :18:34.people on the Times must feel vulnerable. It loses 40 million a
:18:34. > :18:40.year. The shareholders arrested, they'll want to get rid of it.
:18:40. > :18:46.Nobody wants to buy it. If they do, it will be an oligarch. Clearly,
:18:46. > :18:50.this is a moment of relief that we've lanced the o boil.
:18:50. > :18:53.Nevertheless there will be terrible fallouts. What marked out the
:18:53. > :18:55.Murdoch's relationship with politicians was not the
:18:55. > :19:03.relationship between Murdoch and the Prime Minister, important
:19:03. > :19:11.though that was, it was the top of a Nexus of relationships involving
:19:11. > :19:15.many characters, steltssteltsstelts, Les Hinton, Rebekah Wade. Lord
:19:15. > :19:19.Stevens, one of the highest paid columnists of all time. That made
:19:19. > :19:24.it different and some may say inSidious, because it was so
:19:24. > :19:28.enmeshed. What is now happening, as this unravels in Britain, is that
:19:28. > :19:32.this story is now crossing the Atlantic. That's where Rupert
:19:33. > :19:37.Murdoch really has to worry. If it's true that 9/11 victims have
:19:37. > :19:41.been hacked, even if they're British, to hack a 9/11 victim, I
:19:41. > :19:45.imagine in the United States is regarded as a deeply unpatriotic
:19:45. > :19:52.act. It is. Though I have to say the evidence for that is pretty
:19:52. > :19:57.tenuous. I put an "if" at the beginning of my sentence. It is a
:19:57. > :20:00.matter which has been raised by Congress and which the FBI will
:20:00. > :20:04.investigate. If that goes wrong, that is incredibly serious. There
:20:04. > :20:07.is the fit and proper person issue. The point about the American when's
:20:07. > :20:11.they catch up with corporate wrongdoing they're quite ruthless.
:20:11. > :20:16.A colleague said in Parliament, under current British legislation
:20:16. > :20:21.Murdoch is not a fit and proper person to run a mini cab office let
:20:21. > :20:24.alone a media organisation. That may not get easier when the police
:20:24. > :20:27.investigation continues. The bigger threat on the other side of the
:20:27. > :20:30.Atlantic is actually the institutional investors in the
:20:31. > :20:36.company and the corporate governance issues, which have
:20:36. > :20:40.basically given him a free hand and certainly unlikely now to allow
:20:40. > :20:45.James Murdoch to take over from him. The family dynasty is gone and he
:20:45. > :20:49.may face even a revolt from within the company about himself. Andrew,
:20:49. > :20:54.the biggest threat is the Grim Reaper. He's 80 years old.
:20:54. > :21:00.mother is over 100. I don't want to depress you. The fact is that he
:21:00. > :21:03.needs time to claw himself back on this. Obviously he still wants the
:21:03. > :21:08.BSkyB takeover. If you'd asked me yesterday morning, I would have
:21:08. > :21:13.said he'll get it in the end, now I don't think. So now I think because
:21:14. > :21:20.of his age and they won't want the boy. They won't want the boy?
:21:20. > :21:24.will not want the boy. He's not in any way exceled himself here.
:21:24. > :21:29.said the same thing about Rupert in the beginning. My father was
:21:29. > :21:32.employed by Rupert's father. They all thought the Sun was useless.
:21:32. > :21:39.And one of the things that always struck me about him, maybe he's
:21:39. > :21:43.still trying to prove himself to his dad. At 80? Yeah, never stops.
:21:43. > :21:50.Maybe he thought he would inherit a newspaper dynasty from his father
:21:50. > :21:56.and he didn't. Maybe that's why he's so keen on his own dynasty now.
:21:56. > :21:59.Now if you don't like what you see, and you probably don't, and you
:21:59. > :22:04.can't switch off because you've lost the remote down the sofa,
:22:04. > :22:09.again and writing to points of view is a step too far for your literary
:22:09. > :22:13.capabilities, you know it is, feel free to join in the festival of
:22:13. > :22:16.pain otherwise known as the viewers comments section on our interweb
:22:16. > :22:21.page. For those of you who understand the full and terrible
:22:21. > :22:26.horror of the phrase "shirt gate" remember that a couple of weeks
:22:26. > :22:31.ago? There's a wonderful world of Twitter. Now, to a far more
:22:31. > :22:35.gripping story than the goings on at the Murdoch empire, no not David
:22:35. > :22:40.Beckham naming his daughter Harper Seven, sounds like a cross between
:22:40. > :22:45.a TV show and a magazine. I was shocked however, what's wrong with
:22:45. > :22:49.good old Andrea? That's a nice name. No, I'm talking about the faits of
:22:49. > :22:53.our plucky hacks, will Kevin Maguire and Quentin Letts make good
:22:53. > :22:58.their escape? Where will they go? Have they had their jobs? Will
:22:58. > :23:08.their ears go pop? Are there any more questions to ask? No. Let's go
:23:08. > :23:17.
:23:17. > :23:20.Quentin and Kevin have missed check-in for their flight to outer
:23:20. > :23:26.Mongolia. Come on, for goodness sake. They're now trying to find
:23:26. > :23:33.out what other destinations are available. Tunisia is nice. It's
:23:33. > :23:39.under armed guard. Egypt? Niez if you like mass protest. Italy?
:23:39. > :23:49.Closed. Greece? It's been sold. about America? It's been cut.
:23:49. > :23:59.Portugal is just �99. Is that flight one way? �99 gets you
:23:59. > :24:08.
:24:08. > :24:13.What exchange rate due get for your euros? The euros, you don't want
:24:13. > :24:17.euros any more. No-one wants them. The bad weather in Europe has
:24:17. > :24:22.affected the UK too. Hundreds of flights have been cancelled,
:24:22. > :24:28.leaving passengers furious. This is ridiculous, just because of one
:24:28. > :24:33.snowflake on the Tarmac. Flight officer George Osborne has Med a
:24:33. > :24:41.statement: They're clearly disappointing figures, but the stat
:24:41. > :24:46.Titians tell us that the weather had a huge effect, we ht coldest
:24:46. > :24:54.weather for 100 years. Have you heard how much flights are to
:24:54. > :24:59.Libya? Libya? Yeah you can go for 16 quid from Luton or 260 million
:24:59. > :25:03.from Brize Norton. A lot of money to keep Gaddafi from the Olympics.
:25:03. > :25:08.Deputy airport manager Nick was left in charge while boss David was
:25:08. > :25:13.away on a business trip to the Middle East. Unfortunately no-one
:25:13. > :25:18.noticed, not even him The first Deputy Prime Minister in British
:25:18. > :25:25.history, to fail to turn up to work when the Prime Minister is abroad
:25:25. > :25:32.for a week. I think I am wanting to ask, what's the point of Nick
:25:32. > :25:39.Clegg? So instead, he's been given a really important new job, moving
:25:39. > :25:43.all the tralies from one end of the airport to the other. Oh, look,
:25:43. > :25:50.what's he going to do now? He's taking them all back again. Bit sad
:25:50. > :25:55.really. Having successfully booked a new
:25:55. > :26:05.flight, Kevin and Quentin are finally off on holiday. This is a
:26:05. > :26:05.
:26:05. > :26:12.new bit of security. Can I ask what you do for a living? Sure, tabloid
:26:12. > :26:19.journalists... When we come back, there's confusion on the flight
:26:19. > :26:22.deck and Nick gets lost in his own airport.
:26:22. > :26:29.Now we see why Michael Portillo is always on trains. You wouldn't want
:26:29. > :26:35.to be on that. Jon, I've watched a lot of your reports from Egypt and
:26:35. > :26:41.as the Arab Spring was gathering pace, we've seen it in Egypt, Syria,
:26:41. > :26:46.Tunisia, Syria as well. Are we in danger that the Arab Spring will go
:26:46. > :26:50.straight to an Arab winter? I don't know what we will see. We have run
:26:50. > :26:55.out of the experts. Nobody stood up and said, be prepared, Mubarak will
:26:55. > :26:59.go. The Tunisian President will go. Gaddafi will be undermined, Yemen's
:26:59. > :27:04.tyrant will go. Nobody came up and forecast that at the beginning of
:27:04. > :27:07.this year. We're in completely uncharted territory. The Egyptian
:27:07. > :27:14.spring is probably the most interesting because it is stalled,
:27:14. > :27:19.yet the voices are still there in the square. It's still very, very
:27:19. > :27:23.much alive. They may have to do it again almost. They may have to, and
:27:23. > :27:28.it may evolve and rolling experience. A big issue will be
:27:28. > :27:34.Mubarak on trial. If they successfully get him job to trial,
:27:34. > :27:42.it seems to me they'll be one step further forward, towards what, I do
:27:42. > :27:48.not know. Jermaine, do you see this as an Arab Spring that will end up
:27:48. > :27:52.with more liberal societies or repressive regimes being replaced
:27:52. > :27:56.by different kinds of oppressive regimes? This is the problem. When
:27:56. > :28:01.you have oppressive regimes they don't allow an alternative
:28:01. > :28:04.government to form. You don't have the logistics that you need.
:28:04. > :28:10.There's no structure to move into the vax uem that has been created.
:28:10. > :28:14.We all got a bit excited about what was going on in Egypt, because it
:28:15. > :28:19.was so spontaneous. But spontaneous means vulnerable. Spontaneous means
:28:19. > :28:25.now we have a space where whoever is organised to exploit it can move
:28:25. > :28:29.in. The most obvious people in most parts of north Africa would be some
:28:29. > :28:33.kind of Islamic fundamentalist organisation that already has the
:28:33. > :28:36.information of the mosques and the madrassas and communications
:28:36. > :28:41.between them. This is what is really scary. The one thing we have
:28:41. > :28:47.to be grateful for at this point is that hasn't happened in Egypt. And
:28:47. > :28:50.it may not happen in Egypt. The ironic thing is that we have
:28:50. > :28:56.tacitly supported all these regimes. In the case of Gaddafi, we armed
:28:56. > :28:59.him. Now we're having, as soon as there's a spurt of opposition to
:28:59. > :29:04.him, we suddenly decide we're on their side, which is puzzling for
:29:04. > :29:09.everybody on the ground. It looks as if we haven't got the staying
:29:09. > :29:14.power to go with it any way. We're facing chaos. Speaking of Gaddafi,
:29:14. > :29:18.was Mr Cameron right to get engaged in Libya with looking back with a
:29:18. > :29:22.couple of months' hindsight? think the situation has turned out
:29:22. > :29:25.to be very messy. It's made NATO look completely impotent. I think
:29:25. > :29:29.it's more like four months, we haven't brought any kind of
:29:29. > :29:33.decisive result to it at all. I think probably David Cameron got
:29:33. > :29:37.into this by accident. He called for a no-fly zone, which I thought
:29:37. > :29:42.was a reasonable thing to call for. He never expected the Americans to
:29:42. > :29:46.support that. I don't think he imagine today would escalate from
:29:46. > :29:52.something much beyond a no-fly zone into attacking every Gaddafi target
:29:52. > :30:02.that could be found. He finds himself by accident. -- here by
:30:02. > :30:03.
:30:03. > :30:07.Are the Labour backbenchers still comfortable with the situation?
:30:07. > :30:12.think both backbenchers are uneasy. We thought we were voting to stop a
:30:12. > :30:18.massacre and we were told the Arab league would get involved and it
:30:18. > :30:24.has fallen apart. Both backbenchers are uneasy. But about prospects.
:30:24. > :30:28.I'm not as, wrel sort of cynical as the others. We are not going to see
:30:28. > :30:35.Scandinavian democracy over night in the region, but there a shift
:30:35. > :30:40.going on. So in the long run I think we can't go back to where we
:30:41. > :30:46.were. Having stood in Egypt, it was a most extraordinary experience and
:30:47. > :30:52.it is hard to see that spirit and that education. These people were
:30:52. > :30:56.extremely bright and engaged and able and the use of the social
:30:56. > :31:05.network. Like the Iranian population. Yes I accept they have
:31:05. > :31:10.not been able. Or the students in China? But this lot were not shot.
:31:10. > :31:16.Ultimately Egypt came through. raise an important point at the
:31:16. > :31:22.start, the possibility of multiple revolutions. In history, the French
:31:22. > :31:27.revolution was four or five and the Russian was three or four.
:31:27. > :31:33.Government is saying that it expects a major break through in
:31:33. > :31:38.Libya before the end of the month. I think we think that too. Most of
:31:38. > :31:42.us who have people in there think it will resolve. What is
:31:42. > :31:46.complicated is the Italian/French situation which you have both
:31:46. > :31:51.Silvio Berlusconi and Nicolas Sarkozy asking for talks with
:31:51. > :31:56.Gaddafi. It I not clear whether that is because they would rather
:31:56. > :32:03.prevent a blood bath, or whether they actually think we can't go on
:32:03. > :32:08.with is. -- with this. If Gaddafi falls and there is a reasonably
:32:08. > :32:14.respectable government takes over in Tripoli, will that have
:32:14. > :32:19.justified the intervention? still don't know how many civilian
:32:19. > :32:25.were killed in Iraq. We will probably never know how much damage
:32:25. > :32:33.we have done in this particular sorty. It looks as if there has
:32:33. > :32:39.been a few disasters, we have hit the rebels. If it come out well and
:32:39. > :32:47.Gaddafi is removed, all of this will be forgotten. It will be a
:32:47. > :32:53.success. It may be. It airk takes more than that. It may be a pwheebg
:32:53. > :32:59.confor the countries where the revolution is still born. I think
:32:59. > :33:08.it will move south. It is interesting. You mean? SubSaha ran
:33:08. > :33:12.Africa. Some of these leaders will find times get uncomfortable. But
:33:12. > :33:22.it is interesting how paranoid the Chinese have been. The removal of
:33:22. > :33:26.the world -- word Egypt from the Chinese search engine is strange.
:33:26. > :33:31.They think that will contain a revolution in China. I don't think.
:33:31. > :33:36.So We're talking about worried people I think. That is the world
:33:36. > :33:41.dealt with. Now the big issue - how does Nick Clegg hold down being
:33:42. > :33:49.Deputy Prime Minister and do the school run? Because his wife tells
:33:49. > :33:59.him and with the answer to that we rejoin Letts and Maguire on their
:33:59. > :34:07.
:34:07. > :34:13.After seven hours 06 waiting they have made it on their holiday
:34:13. > :34:17.flight. Can't believe what six months it has been. You must admit
:34:17. > :34:22.Ed Milliband could go on holiday having got a lift under his wings.
:34:22. > :34:27.People were calling him a mall functioning robot. These strikes
:34:27. > :34:32.are wrong. I do believe these strikes are wrong. But it could be
:34:32. > :34:36.a blip. You remember Hague with the fuel protests in 2000? If you don't
:34:36. > :34:44.want to be an economy-class politician you have to have a plan
:34:44. > :34:49.for economy. We know captain Cameron's plan. Kprash and burn.
:34:49. > :34:56.I'm surprised how well the Tories are doing. Cut more I say. Come off
:34:56. > :35:03.it. This coalition flight has been diverted so often they don't know
:35:03. > :35:10.what time zone they're in. Forest, prison sentences, the NHS, schools,
:35:11. > :35:16.the inner Flashman isn't coping well. Calm down dear. Listen to the
:35:16. > :35:23.doctor. As for Nick Clegg. He promised to redefine politics - o'
:35:23. > :35:29.politic and brought us his big vision. - alarm clock Britain!
:35:29. > :35:36.what call alarm clock Britain. wonder what he is doing now. I'm if
:35:36. > :35:44.the invisible man! At least we agree on something. It is nice to
:35:44. > :35:54.go, seeing left and right having put aside petty squabbles. Ten
:35:54. > :35:54.
:35:54. > :36:04.minutes to take off. Make sure you armrest is down. It is my armrest.
:36:04. > :36:09.It is to the left. No to the right. You're causing a scene! After a
:36:09. > :36:14.long flight they reach hear the destination. In Belgium. David
:36:14. > :36:18.managed a short break in Cornwall for 45 minutes for a photo
:36:18. > :36:24.opportunity, before flying to somewhere, you know, well nice. Ed
:36:24. > :36:28.his his holiday hiding from Rupert in a card board box. And Nick
:36:28. > :36:38.pushed all the trolleys down to one end of the airport, before pushing
:36:38. > :36:47.
:36:47. > :36:52.them back and then being sent by An airline to avoid. As if by magic,
:36:52. > :37:00.Germain Greer has turned into somebody else. First the coalition.
:37:00. > :37:04.You represent the Liberal Democrats. No I don't. In an unofficial
:37:04. > :37:13.capacity. This crisis has been good, this media crisis has been good for
:37:13. > :37:19.Nick Clegg. I think it has. What it has given him is something that
:37:19. > :37:25.encapsulates change. And it fits in with his agenda. So I think for him
:37:25. > :37:31.that is good. I think what is also important is the clue's in the
:37:31. > :37:37.title, liberal, he does believe in a plural media. We all believe in
:37:37. > :37:43.that. I'm not sure we do, having watched those two, the mirror and
:37:43. > :37:48.the mail as a representative of how we feel, that is not plural media.
:37:48. > :37:53.Nick Clegg's thing is he has not God anything -- got anything to
:37:53. > :37:58.hide. Rupert Murdoch never rated the Liberal Democrats. I am sure
:37:58. > :38:04.that is right. But that doesn't mean that they didn't over a long
:38:04. > :38:11.period of time, even under attack over a long period, they still
:38:11. > :38:16.argued a lot about plurality. Even when David Puttnam talked about
:38:16. > :38:21.amendments and how Labour refused to bring some control on the media,
:38:21. > :38:25.he praised the Liberal Democrats. What co-you -- do you think Mr
:38:25. > :38:32.Clegg and Mr Cable has done if Rupert Murdoch said a few years ago,
:38:32. > :38:37.I have decided you're the future, I will put my paper be hind you.
:38:37. > :38:45.have nowt no - o' I have no doubt they would have been interested.
:38:45. > :38:51.But they wown't have abandoned a long standing commitment to
:38:51. > :38:55.pluralism in the media. It seems to me that the Liberal Democrat leader
:38:55. > :38:59.he is benefiting in this issue, unlike many, because attention has
:38:59. > :39:03.switched to the Prime Minister. He is not in the frame for this. David
:39:03. > :39:09.Cameron is. That is true. But of course there are lurking ghosts who
:39:09. > :39:14.are also not Mr Clegg who are in the frame. That is the Labour Party.
:39:14. > :39:18.At least as deeply in bed in the form of Tony Blair and in the form
:39:19. > :39:24.even of Gordon Brown, despite yesterday's huffing and puffing
:39:24. > :39:34.from the benches. So Mr Clegg emerges as clean Clegg. That won't
:39:34. > :39:38.be a bad description. Dan has he had a good crisis, Ed Milliband, he
:39:38. > :39:44.has been said to be setting the pace. I think it has been a game
:39:44. > :39:50.changer for Ed. With his own party. And in Parliament. Because he has
:39:51. > :39:54.ended the yearen a high and for the public. It has been a game changer
:39:54. > :39:58.with Parliament. You say it is easy to lead the opposition. Actually
:39:58. > :40:08.everything he call for he got. He absolutely led this. But I want to
:40:08. > :40:12.
:40:12. > :40:18.say one thing. This has been a great week for backbenchers. John
:40:18. > :40:22.Whittingdale did this and Tom Watson. Isn't the challenge for Ed
:40:22. > :40:29.Milliband over the summer and in September, is to engage with the
:40:29. > :40:34.public on more mainstream issues. We we were fortunate in the concern
:40:34. > :40:38.of our activists on this coincided with the concerns of public. That
:40:39. > :40:42.is not the case with other issues. From a point where people were
:40:42. > :40:47.muttering and there was stuff in the media, Ed Milliband has pulled
:40:47. > :40:52.it back. How damaged is David Cameron by the, particularly with
:40:52. > :40:58.the Andy Coulson link and the fact that he built relations with the
:40:58. > :41:01.Murdoch empire in the same way as Mr Brown and Mr Blair. How damaged
:41:01. > :41:05.is he. He has been uncomfortable and he has not looked as if he has
:41:05. > :41:09.been in the lead all week. Still he gave a good performance in
:41:09. > :41:13.Parliament and he has risen to the occasion. His dominance of
:41:13. > :41:19.Parliament remains absolute. Broadening this out to his general
:41:19. > :41:24.performance, he is in command of the Government. He is a decisive
:41:24. > :41:30.man and looks Prime Ministerial. I think the big issue around the U-
:41:30. > :41:34.turns. I worked with Margaret Thatcher and she made many U-turns.
:41:34. > :41:38.But the thing was you were never in doubt as to what she thought and
:41:38. > :41:41.where the Government was going. U- turns in that context are
:41:41. > :41:45.acceptable. The question I think still about David Cameron is the U-
:41:45. > :41:50.turns have been made, is the sense of direction and is the clarity
:41:50. > :41:54.about what he believes as much as it was in Mr Thatcher's day. The
:41:54. > :42:00.answer is now at the moment. But can he develop it. Would it be fair
:42:01. > :42:04.to say this countlys - country has taken well to idea of coalition.
:42:05. > :42:10.think people are enjoying their first experience of majority
:42:10. > :42:17.government with relish. People are comfortable with the coalition.
:42:17. > :42:22.They are uncomfortable the cuts. As for U-turn, people like flexibility.
:42:22. > :42:25.They like ducking and waving. The health thing was a nonsense.
:42:25. > :42:33.people are comfortable with coalitions, why did the A Vlasov
:42:33. > :42:39.vote go down? That reflected. -- why did the AV vote go down in
:42:39. > :42:46.flames. That was a nonsense operation. The Prime Minister talks
:42:46. > :42:51.about an election in 2015. He is very enthusiastic about the
:42:51. > :42:56.continuation of the coalition. Maybe I will happen. I was thinking
:42:56. > :43:00.back, given we are at an end of a term moment and to my first
:43:00. > :43:05.appearance on here. We gave you tougher time. No you have always
:43:05. > :43:10.given me a very tough time. Good on you for it. But what was, we talked
:43:10. > :43:14.about was what would happen with the party collapse if there was a
:43:14. > :43:19.no to AV vote and the speculation was everything would fall apart.
:43:19. > :43:26.Well the opposite. Thank you Mr Murdoch you can say. More robust
:43:26. > :43:30.than people think. A great piece of political theatre. Next week the
:43:30. > :43:33.select committee. I think it will be a disappoint. They will be there
:43:33. > :43:39.together and should take them in separately and grill them
:43:39. > :43:44.separately and have the others locked away so they can't hear the
:43:44. > :43:48.evidence. We shall see and will be live on BBC Two on Tuesday
:43:48. > :43:55.afternoon and bring you that select committee grilling of the Murdochs
:43:55. > :44:00.and Rebecca Brooks. Channel four will bring you the highlights.
:44:00. > :44:05.There is two for the price of one. Thank you. That is it for tonight
:44:05. > :44:10.and that is your lot until we return in the autumn. Do ahear a
:44:10. > :44:17.collective ah? I thought I did. We leave you knowing Westminster will
:44:17. > :44:21.be a different place in September. Not content with stabbing his
:44:21. > :44:26.brother in the back, Ed Milliband will go under the knife himself. To
:44:26. > :44:30.have his adenoids removed. A regular viewer know we have become
:44:31. > :44:36.as attached to them as he is. Perhaps even more so. Because he is
:44:36. > :44:41.getting rid of them we plan to Byrd for them once they make their --