:00:25. > :00:33.Tonight on This Week, it's the final countdown for the eurozone.
:00:33. > :00:37.enough to end the crisis? One of the euro's biggest fans,
:00:37. > :00:40.broadcaster and writer Will Hutton, watches the clock.
:00:40. > :00:47.I think this is a watershed moment. There'll come a time when one day
:00:47. > :00:51.Britain will want to join the euro. Prime Minister David Cameron
:00:51. > :00:55.couldn't count on his MPs' support this week. But how much damage has
:00:55. > :01:00.been caused by opening old European wounds?
:01:00. > :01:03.The Mirror's Kevin Maguire has been counting the cost in the trenches.
:01:03. > :01:11.Cameron ordered his mutinous troops over the top, but did he shoot
:01:11. > :01:15.himself in the foot? Counting the cost of causing
:01:15. > :01:20.offence from pictures of Gaddafi to Ricky Gervais on Twitter. Does
:01:20. > :01:25.society have every right to be getting so touchy? Top broadcaster
:01:25. > :01:35.Richard Bacon is not looking to hurt anybody's feelings. And I must
:01:35. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :01:44.warn viewers that what you are about to see won't offend anybody.
:01:45. > :01:53.Were leaving together, but it's still farewell.
:01:53. > :01:57.Evening, all. Welcome to This Week. OK, which politician described tax
:01:57. > :02:02.avoidance as a particularly ugly note in these straightened times?
:02:02. > :02:07.The Government crack down hard claimed it was utterly offensive in
:02:07. > :02:12.a recession and promised to do the maximum possible to stop it in
:02:12. > :02:14.future. I'll give you a clue - he's a Lib Dem ballroom dancer. Some say
:02:15. > :02:18.he's also the Business Secretary, though not all are convinced by the
:02:18. > :02:23.evidence. He's been forced to make an
:02:23. > :02:31.embarrassing apology. Well,ish, for not paying thousands of pounds owed
:02:32. > :02:40.in VAT. He was fined �500 after claiming his non-payment was an
:02:41. > :02:45.oversight. Still not got it? Let's two to St Paul's, because mongst
:02:45. > :02:48.the protestors, we'll see Vince Cable being pilloried as another
:02:48. > :02:52.member of the so-called ferrel elite. To think he was once the
:02:52. > :03:01.darling of the Liberal Democrat dance floor. Actually, I'm told
:03:01. > :03:09.there's no point in going live to St Paul's because Tristram ah Bella
:03:09. > :03:13.and the other s are gone home for the night. Speaking of the
:03:13. > :03:18.unacceptable capitalism, I'm joined by two men who always claim their
:03:18. > :03:23.dodgy shirt expenses against tax - the Al Capone and Ken Dodd of late-
:03:23. > :03:29.night political chat. You can work out which is which,. Actually, the
:03:29. > :03:35.one in the black shirt is Al Capone. Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson.
:03:35. > :03:39.The alis a clue. Definitely! -- Al is a clue. I've struggled to
:03:39. > :03:42.find a moment that wasn't Europe and I failed. I was at a
:03:42. > :03:45.British/Spanish conference at the weekend, a lovely gathering of
:03:45. > :03:48.friends. Even in the gathering, one of the Spanish said at one point,
:03:48. > :03:53.we are getting fed up with you British, and in the end, we are
:03:53. > :03:58.going to chuck you out of the European Union. I thought about
:03:58. > :04:00.this that day probably when Nicolas Sarkozy said in a moment of anger
:04:00. > :04:04.of David Cameron that he wished he'd shut up and not criticise the
:04:04. > :04:07.euro and make any suggestions about how they should manage their
:04:07. > :04:11.affairs. We are going to discuss this further shortly, but I think
:04:11. > :04:15.we've reach add new low in the relations between the eurozone and
:04:15. > :04:21.Britain. I hope you responded by saying, why don't you shut up and
:04:21. > :04:26.do something about your 40% youth unemployment? He said I'll have
:04:26. > :04:30.another glass of Riocca! anticipated what President Sarkozy
:04:30. > :04:32.said. The whole problem is caused by having too many countries in the
:04:32. > :04:36.euro and you might think the solution was to remove the
:04:36. > :04:41.countries, but they regard that as unthinkable. Indeed. Your moment,
:04:41. > :04:47.Alan? Sunday's election in Tunisia. The Jasmine Revolution. That was
:04:47. > :04:52.the start of the Arab Spring and it was a free and fair election, the
:04:52. > :05:00.talk of around 90% turnout, moderate Islamic Party are forming
:05:00. > :05:04.a coalition. How sure are we? are not quite sure, are we?
:05:04. > :05:09.first step is to have free and fair elections and all the international
:05:09. > :05:11.monitors said that went well. There had to be an equal number of male
:05:11. > :05:15.and females, so they're very different to some of the countries
:05:15. > :05:20.around them in terms of women's rights. It's an example that others,
:05:20. > :05:26.I hope, will follow, and I think it was a very encouraging thing.
:05:26. > :05:30.our best hope isn't it. Mongst the north Africans countries, that is
:05:30. > :05:34.the one that's most identifiably European. The all-night eurozone
:05:34. > :05:40.talks are over. The euro will live to fight another day for now. Have
:05:40. > :05:46.the leaders done enough? What's the future got in store? Will Silvio
:05:46. > :05:51.Berlusconi be able to resist the bunga nights? Will Nicolas Sarkozy
:05:51. > :05:55.refrain from his Sarky comments and can Angela stay off that second
:05:55. > :06:01.portion of cheese? All big vital questions of her time. Naturally,
:06:01. > :06:11.we have asked a keen euro supporter for his take of where now for
:06:11. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:23.There may not be celebratory parties all over Europe and Italy
:06:23. > :06:27.this weekend, but for the time being, the crisis is averted. Last
:06:27. > :06:31.night, Europe's leaders agreed to half Greece's debts, to find one
:06:31. > :06:36.trillion euro for a bail out found and to recapitalise Europe ease
:06:36. > :06:42.banks. Already the markets are finding it a credible solution.
:06:42. > :06:46.It's a biggish bazooka, to coin a phrase, but there's more to do.
:06:46. > :06:49.Europe needs more growth and reform and there's a treaty on the way.
:06:50. > :06:52.It's already clear, especially from the remarks that Chancellor Angela
:06:52. > :06:56.Merkel made to the German Parliament before the summit began
:06:56. > :07:02.that the Europeans and the Germans in particular will do whatever it
:07:02. > :07:07.takes to make the euro work. I think Britain will radio the day
:07:08. > :07:12.that for the first time in modern history, we were bystanders as our
:07:12. > :07:19.continent Europe reshaped itself. Because we weren't members of the
:07:19. > :07:25.euro, our views were irrelevant. Our fate was decided by others.
:07:25. > :07:30.Europe is on the way to becoming fully two tier. On the inside,
:07:30. > :07:36.there'll be a group of countries acting in unison, less a superstate,
:07:36. > :07:40.more a political self-help club. On the outside, a bunch of
:07:40. > :07:50.countries relegated to the sidelines, like our entries to the
:07:50. > :07:50.
:07:50. > :08:00.Eurovision Kong contest. # Making your mind up... #
:08:00. > :08:03.In if years ahead, we'll want to join the euro. Few people
:08:03. > :08:07.understand how chronically economically weak we are, volatile
:08:07. > :08:13.inflation to come, high unemployment, low economic growth.
:08:13. > :08:16.But 020, we'll be banging at the inner door asking to be allowed to
:08:16. > :08:21.join. By 2020.
:08:22. > :08:26.So was I wrong about the euro originally? I certainly didn't see
:08:26. > :08:31.how its design flaws would interact with the financial meltdown to
:08:31. > :08:34.create this order of crisis. But then, not one, not one of the
:08:35. > :08:39.crowing Euro-Sceptics touring the TV studios this week did either.
:08:39. > :08:45.As it stands, Britain is in a corner with very few options and
:08:46. > :08:49.the one economic block that could save us is sailing off in the
:08:49. > :08:53.opposite direction. I am only the person in the media who thinks that
:08:53. > :09:02.joining the euro could be part of our salvation. That itself is
:09:02. > :09:06.pretty alarming! Will Hutton in the bar in Battersea
:09:06. > :09:10.Bridge Road. Glad I got that out, and some people will be wondering
:09:10. > :09:15.what you were drinking. Let's come on to that in a moment.
:09:15. > :09:19.Let me come to the deal first of all. I mean, there are so many
:09:19. > :09:24.details of this deal that we don't know about. You are taking a lot of
:09:24. > :09:28.trust? Well, I start with the commitment
:09:28. > :09:34.that Angela Merkel got from her Parliament before she flew to
:09:34. > :09:38.Brussels. She, under the German constitute of court ruling, has no
:09:38. > :09:48.get Parliamentary approval before she can move and she got it.
:09:48. > :09:53.That was for not a penny more than the 00 billion of which 20 has been
:09:53. > :09:57.spent -- 400 billion of which 200 Han spent? The unity across the
:09:57. > :10:00.political spectrum in Germany and behind her business and Trade Union
:10:00. > :10:05.movement in Germany, the Germans decided they've got to actually do
:10:05. > :10:09.what is needed to keep the euro going. They've not actually, if
:10:09. > :10:13.they won't allow the European Central Bank to buy bonds? Hold on
:10:13. > :10:17.a minute... They wouldn't allow any more money to go into the bail out,
:10:17. > :10:23.so dodgy financial leverage will be used now? I think what's happening
:10:23. > :10:28.here is that there is going to be up to a trillion euro of credit
:10:28. > :10:33.facilities by EU states which a Government guaranteed. It only
:10:33. > :10:39.actually turns into a taxpayer bill for anyone in the eurozone if
:10:39. > :10:44.losses are cit tallised. The big thing about it is, it permits the
:10:44. > :10:47.European Central Bank to buy bonds -- crystallised. It's those
:10:47. > :10:51.combinations, together with the write-offs of the Greek debt,
:10:51. > :10:56.together with the recapitalisation of European banks that actually is
:10:56. > :11:01.an impress you have achievement. The markets don't lie. They jumped
:11:01. > :11:07.up by 5% in France and ours in Britain went up by 3%. They often
:11:07. > :11:11.get it wrong won one day as you might be the first to tell us --
:11:11. > :11:16.wrong on one day. We've moved away from the crisis of six weeks ago.
:11:17. > :11:22.You are a trusting chap. I am. it comes to Europe. Not America
:11:22. > :11:26.maybe but Europe. The end of the world is no longer
:11:26. > :11:29.nigh? The big picture is that you have a lot of economies within the
:11:29. > :11:34.Single Currency who should not be there who cannot cope with being in
:11:34. > :11:37.the euro and who are diverging, not converging, with the other
:11:37. > :11:41.economies. So, what is now being said, is that
:11:41. > :11:45.the solution to this is fiscal union. Fiscal union is a phrase
:11:45. > :11:49.that's easily uttered, but what it means is that you have to behave as
:11:49. > :11:54.though you are a country, which means transferring vast amounts of
:11:54. > :11:57.wealth to Germany to the countries in Europe -- from Germany. I don't
:11:57. > :12:00.rule the conclusion that the Germans have decided that the euro
:12:00. > :12:03.must be saved in the sense that all countries presently within the euro
:12:03. > :12:07.must be kept within the euro. I mean, what Sarkozy has said is
:12:07. > :12:10.precisely that, you know, a country like Greece shouldn't have been
:12:11. > :12:14.there in the first place. And the logic of that is that, actually,
:12:14. > :12:19.the way to save the euro is to shed some of the countries that cannot
:12:19. > :12:27.cope with it, because otherwise you have this endless bill. So what has
:12:27. > :12:31.been don yesterday still doesn't address that question. ALL SPEAK AT
:12:31. > :12:35.ONCE The reason the trillion euros might
:12:36. > :12:38.get used up is that the countries that are struggling are going to go
:12:38. > :12:44.on struggling and you cannot see how, within the euro, without being
:12:44. > :12:50.able to De value Spain, Italy, Greece or Ireland or Portugal, are
:12:50. > :12:53.going to grow. They're good points and, in all these arguments, about
:12:54. > :12:58.weighing up the balance. First of all, I think De valuation, although
:12:58. > :13:00.an important tool, is a lesser effective tool than it used to be,
:13:00. > :13:06.for modern economies who trade in knowledge, goods and services. We
:13:06. > :13:14.are seeing that ourselves in the UK. Big De valuation. But only a much
:13:14. > :13:18.lets robust response than one might have expected -- De valuation. Ic
:13:18. > :13:23.take your point. There are economies that are very different,
:13:23. > :13:26.but the open question is, they're going to be different in a world of
:13:26. > :13:31.floating exchange rates and different in a world of semi fixed
:13:31. > :13:37.exchange rates and dufpbt in a Single Currency area. -- different.
:13:37. > :13:45.Europe went through the Single Currency, a semi fixed exchange
:13:45. > :13:49.rate but it didn't work. But what's the answer to that? I think what we
:13:49. > :13:54.are underestimating is that it's been an absolute fight to the death
:13:54. > :13:57.in the 17 eurozone countries. The determination to actually hold this
:13:57. > :14:02.currency that they've created has been intensified by what they've
:14:02. > :14:05.gone through and actually to make the kinds of structural reform as
:14:05. > :14:11.necessary to make their countries live together. That's an important
:14:11. > :14:16.moment. Greek debt will still be 120% of GDP even after this. Yes.
:14:17. > :14:21.It's a huge amount. Alan, Ed Balls was quite lukewarm about this deal
:14:21. > :14:27.and Alistair Darling, we had on the Daily Politics today, he raised his
:14:27. > :14:33.famous eyebrows about it all. Labour sounding sceptical? He said
:14:33. > :14:37.they shouldn't leave Brussels until they get a deal. Given that it's
:14:37. > :14:43.still fresh news, I think it is as good as it could possibly be at
:14:43. > :14:46.this stage. Let them rumage around and see what is there. I disagree
:14:46. > :14:49.with Will's central premise that we don't carry the influence because
:14:49. > :14:53.we are outside the euro. I would rather be in a two speed Europe
:14:53. > :14:59.than to be in the euro at the moment and it's a bit stretching it
:14:59. > :15:03.a bit to say that not being in the euro when there's a crisis there is
:15:03. > :15:06.somethousand against our best interests. We are riebl to stay out.
:15:07. > :15:10.-- right to stay out. A better argument is about the European
:15:10. > :15:15.Union itself. I am pro-European Union and you almost got the
:15:15. > :15:18.impression this week in Parliament that it's now wrong to be anti-EU
:15:18. > :15:21.and you don't hear many voices speaking up for the European Union.
:15:21. > :15:31.I would rather do that. You can speak up for the European Union and
:15:31. > :15:34.You implied the economy was a mess and in a bad way. We can't deny
:15:34. > :15:38.that, but you said because of that we needed to get into the euro,
:15:38. > :15:44.where everything would be fine. It's not sustainable to say we have
:15:44. > :15:50.to join to be as good as Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece?
:15:50. > :15:54.Well, firstly, the eurozone will get up off its knees and I'm not
:15:54. > :15:57.talking about this happening in the next two or three years, but ten or
:15:57. > :16:01.15 years. What the position we are going to find ourselves in, is
:16:01. > :16:07.exactly the same position that the French and Spanish and ittalyands
:16:07. > :16:12.found themselves into the 70's, 80's and 90's, and that is that our
:16:12. > :16:16.monetary policy will be that we can set interest rates independently of
:16:16. > :16:19.what the European Central Bank or the US Federal Reserve will be for
:16:19. > :16:24.the birds. The markets will punish us if the policy is more lax than
:16:24. > :16:28.the zone. We'll find that we'll have to shadow what they're they
:16:28. > :16:33.are doing in Brussels, Paris and Berlin and Rome and Madrid. We may
:16:33. > :16:36.not like that, but that will be the reality. We will have, volatile
:16:36. > :16:39.inflation. We have a huge debt overhang and the consequence of QE
:16:39. > :16:45.will be volatile inflation in the middle of the decade. Growth I
:16:45. > :16:51.think will carry on being low. Our social contract will fray at the
:16:51. > :16:56.edges and suddenly it will look - this eurozone, in maybe seven years,
:16:56. > :17:00.it will be growing at a moderate rate and it will look much better
:17:00. > :17:04.than now. That's if it works. That comes back to you being a chap of
:17:05. > :17:11.faith. I am. You should be outside St Paul's. Indeed, you would be on
:17:11. > :17:15.your own at this stage. This idea that people didn't warn that the
:17:15. > :17:21.eurozone would end up in the nacker's yard and a complete mess,
:17:21. > :17:31.you were told again and again that the zone was not an optimal
:17:31. > :17:34.currency area, that you couldn't spachcocock together. You are both
:17:34. > :17:40.right, but the point I'm making is that the particular reason why it
:17:40. > :17:47.got itself into rubble, which is it didn't have a European monetary
:17:47. > :17:52.fund of more than one trillion euro to bail out the awful mix-up
:17:53. > :17:59.between sovereign and bank debt. No-one anticipated the financial
:17:59. > :18:05.meltdown that led to this mix-up of the debt crisis, which required the
:18:05. > :18:09.European monetary fund. I have to give Michael the final word. It's
:18:09. > :18:14.that limited point. Michael, splutter away. I would just say
:18:14. > :18:18.that in the mod erp world there is no such thing as deferred
:18:18. > :18:21.gratification -- modern world there is no such thing as deferred
:18:21. > :18:24.gratification. They should have taken three or four countries and
:18:24. > :18:28.built it out. Then had standards so when others met the standards they
:18:28. > :18:32.could join. What they did, they were very greedy and said, "We'll
:18:32. > :18:37.have 17 countries." That was a crazey thing, because there was no
:18:37. > :18:40.way that Italy, Ireland, Greece, Portugal would survive in that
:18:40. > :18:44.situation. I don't think the film is ridiculous at all, because
:18:44. > :18:47.although I believe in being outside the euro, I do think Britain is a
:18:47. > :18:51.vulnerable little country with a little currency and I don't know
:18:51. > :18:55.what will happen in the future, but I'm absolutely with Alan in saying
:18:55. > :18:59.I think it's perverse we would have been better off being there for the
:18:59. > :19:03.last few years. I didn't say that. I'm saying in the future. I want to
:19:03. > :19:09.talk about the future. I want you to come back in ten years' time and
:19:09. > :19:16.want you to wave your UK euro notes around and we'll look stupid and
:19:16. > :19:24.you will be triumphant. If we are still around, I will be tkphriet --
:19:24. > :19:31.delighted to do that. Will Hutton there is a tent and a bottle of
:19:31. > :19:37.Blue Nun waiting for you. Don't you say a word, it is European. Now, it
:19:37. > :19:43.may be too late to save the banks from a haircut but it's no too late
:19:43. > :19:51.to stick with us, because Richard Bacon will talk about the art of
:19:51. > :19:56.taking offence. For those of you who need little encouragement,
:19:56. > :20:01.there is a whole world on the interwebsite. You can follow us on
:20:01. > :20:08.twitter or join the half a dozen people who claim already to like us
:20:08. > :20:11.on the Facebook. Now, spare a thought for our poor Prime Minister,
:20:11. > :20:14.David Cameron. He's been so busy trying to gatecrash EU summits this
:20:14. > :20:17.week that he forgot to do something really, really important back home.
:20:17. > :20:20.No, not crush the little rebellion over Europe from his backbenches -
:20:20. > :20:24.you know, the worst for nearly 20 years - no, it completely slipped
:20:24. > :20:27.his mind to set the video for his favourite TV programme! So with him
:20:27. > :20:37.in mind, and back by no popular demand, here's The Mirror's Kevin
:20:37. > :21:16.
:21:16. > :21:20.Maguire in series two of Downturn Prepare to move up to the line.
:21:20. > :21:25.don't like the sound of that. The truth is, the war's not going too
:21:25. > :21:28.well here on the Continent. Everyone says they are fighting a
:21:28. > :21:31.common enemy, the massed armies of debt, but over there in the far
:21:31. > :21:35.trenches, the bankers and speculators are shelling the
:21:35. > :21:40.Germans, who are shooting at the French and everyone is sniping at
:21:40. > :21:50.the Italians, who are fighting among themselves and it's bunga
:21:50. > :21:59.
:21:59. > :22:06.bunga. Field Marshal Lord Cameron offered to send the force and his
:22:06. > :22:12.heir, George Osborne of Downturn. Surprisingly, Jonny Foreigner
:22:13. > :22:19.didn't want our help. Apparently President Sarkozy had had enough of
:22:19. > :22:28.the posterg and Hectoring and the know-it-all ways. You spoke not
:22:28. > :22:32.just for France, but for Britain as well. It's been a dreadful week for
:22:32. > :22:37.Lord Cameron. He suffered the most serious Conservative revolt since
:22:37. > :22:43.Major nearly copped it in the battle of Maastricht back in 1993.
:22:43. > :22:48.The Tory right flank want him to rush over to grab back powers while
:22:48. > :22:51.they are still weak. It's not the right time at this moment to launch
:22:51. > :22:56.legislation that includes an in-out referendum. When your neighbours'
:22:56. > :23:00.house is on fire, your first impulse should be to help them to
:23:00. > :23:08.put out the flames, not least to stop the flames reaching your own
:23:08. > :23:12.house. Field Marshal Lord Cameron has adopted the curious tactic for
:23:12. > :23:17.an avowed sewer row sceptic of urging the Europeans to unnight
:23:17. > :23:25.under a single command. The Euro- rebels accuse him of retreating and
:23:25. > :23:30.hiding in the bunker. Get out. Sorry, Sir. If Britain's future as
:23:30. > :23:35.an independent country is not a prop matter for a referendum, then
:23:35. > :23:39.I have absolutely to idea what it. The tentacles of the EU intrude
:23:39. > :23:43.into more and more areas of our national life. Over the last week,
:23:43. > :23:47.we have had many and many of e- mails and phone calls and letters
:23:47. > :23:50.from constituents urging me to support this motion and the only
:23:50. > :23:54.communication I've had urging me to vote against it was a telephone
:23:54. > :23:58.call from the whips' office. He won the immediate battle in the House,
:23:58. > :24:04.and in my view, had little choice but to send his troops over the top
:24:05. > :24:13.on three blasts of the wheef whips's whistle. -- Chief Whip's
:24:13. > :24:19.whistle. Shush. In here, well, that's poor Captain Clegg. Remember
:24:19. > :24:22.him? He used to be the footman, other wise known as Dead Meat. He's
:24:22. > :24:31.been cowering in the dugout for months. In the past few days, he
:24:31. > :24:34.has found his fighting spirit. Government is not going to launch
:24:34. > :24:39.some smash and grab raid on Brussels on its own, which would be
:24:39. > :24:44.condemned to failure. One day we have the Prime Minister saying, yes,
:24:44. > :24:47.to repatriation and 24 hours later, the Deputy Prime Minister says no.
:24:47. > :24:53.Mr Speaker, on this crucial question who speaks for the
:24:53. > :24:58.Government? Red Ed stirring tensions between them Tories
:24:58. > :25:03.upstairs and those Liberal Democrats deblow stairs, upset Lord
:25:03. > :25:07.Cameron. He was snapping and using language unusually you only hear in
:25:07. > :25:09.the skullary. What we have is very plain - there is a group of people
:25:10. > :25:13.on this side of the House who want some rebalancing and a group of
:25:13. > :25:21.people who want a lot of rebalancing and a complete mug who
:25:22. > :25:29.wants no rebalancing at all. "I hope this letter finds you well." I
:25:29. > :25:37.wonder how things are back at home, back at Downturn and how my Lord is
:25:37. > :25:42.coping without me? Maguire. Maguire. Where the devil are you? I bet he
:25:42. > :25:47.hasn't even got dressed yet. I hear they have got a new valet. Mr
:25:47. > :25:52.Clarke, a veteran of the war. He's always saying things that upset Mrs
:25:52. > :25:58.May. The idea that you mandatory sentence for certain types of
:25:58. > :26:03.offence to young offenders and children, to juveniles, is a bit of
:26:03. > :26:08.a leap for the British system. There's trouble back home. Them
:26:08. > :26:13.upstairs have come up with a ludicrous idea of sacking us
:26:13. > :26:17.without compensation. If you want a revolution, bring it on! But, I
:26:17. > :26:21.wonder if they had anybody in mind? I'm embarrassed by the fact that an
:26:21. > :26:26.honest mistake wasn't spotted. However, I make it absolutely clear
:26:26. > :26:29.that I did not avoid paying tax. suppose it's good to know that in
:26:29. > :26:37.these times of austerity a politician can earn more than �190
:26:37. > :26:41.on top of their salary. -- �190,000 on top of their salary. We'll know
:26:41. > :26:45.if the counter-attack is successful and Germany's Commander-in-Chief,
:26:45. > :26:51.Angela Merkel, isn't wrong when she says it's the biggest crisis since
:26:51. > :26:55.the war and Field Marshal Lord Cameron needs to quell the European
:26:55. > :27:05.revolt, or he will be weakened. Whatever happens, one thing is for
:27:05. > :27:07.
:27:07. > :27:17.certain - the poor bloody infantry will be in the firing line.
:27:17. > :27:18.
:27:18. > :27:23.# All together now, in no man's land... # Kevin Maguire, who played
:27:23. > :27:27.every part in that drama there. Something when the BBC cuts kick in
:27:27. > :27:30.you'll see a lot more of in BBC drama. We are joined by the former
:27:30. > :27:36.Liberal Democrat adviser, Miranda Green. Welcome. Very good to see
:27:36. > :27:42.you here tonight. I have to start with you, Michael, Tory split on
:27:42. > :27:47.Europe. Who would have thank you it? It must have been day sha view
:27:47. > :27:51.for you all over again? -- desha view for you all over again? Iity
:27:51. > :27:54.there has been maybe ten years when this hasn't dominated, but it's
:27:54. > :27:57.back. The euro sceptics are strengthened by the last general
:27:57. > :28:00.election and they are numerous within the party. Most of the
:28:00. > :28:05.ministers in the Government, on the Conservative side, share the
:28:05. > :28:09.sentiments of the people on the back benches. The euro sceptics
:28:09. > :28:12.cannot bear the idea there will be this enormous European crisis and
:28:12. > :28:16.possibly meltdown and that no benefits accrues to Britain from it.
:28:16. > :28:21.They want to get powers back at the very least. Some of them are at the
:28:21. > :28:26.extreme and see this as the opportunity to leave the EU. Their
:28:26. > :28:31.strength is enormous and it sends a terrific signal to Europe of
:28:31. > :28:35.British attitudes. I think it is going to be very serious, because
:28:35. > :28:39.there clearly will be a new treaty, one for reform and it seems to be
:28:39. > :28:42.unthinkable that there wouldn't be a referendum in this country.
:28:42. > :28:45.just interrupt you, the Government's already said tonight
:28:45. > :28:48.that it doesn't think - it doesn't know, but it shows you the way they
:28:48. > :28:53.are thinking and what they are trying to do, it doesn't think the
:28:53. > :28:59.changes will be big enough to justify a treaty change referendum.
:28:59. > :29:09.That is the argument that has been used in the past. That will
:29:09. > :29:10.
:29:10. > :29:13.infuriate Parliamentarians. I mean What is it like to be caught in the
:29:13. > :29:16.Tory crossfire in this coalition? It's a strange position for the
:29:16. > :29:18.Liberal Democrats actually because when the coalition was formed,
:29:18. > :29:22.everyone treated the Liberal Democrat party as if they were the
:29:22. > :29:26.sort of teenagers yourbgs know, being invited to the adult table
:29:26. > :29:29.for the first time -- you know. Actually, in a way, you know,
:29:29. > :29:34.you've got the Conservative Party struggling to behave like a party
:29:34. > :29:37.of Government. I mean, this is protest, this is a serious party
:29:37. > :29:41.management problem that David Cameron has got. It's not going to
:29:41. > :29:45.go away. They don't seem to be good at party
:29:45. > :29:49.management? Indeed. You can say what you like about whether the
:29:49. > :29:53.Liberal Democrats are in tune with everything, but they're unite and
:29:53. > :29:57.calm and Nick Clegg is holding firm. I would suggest that it's double-
:29:57. > :30:02.edged for Labour. On the one hand Tory split always good, split on
:30:02. > :30:07.Europe with what we are worried about, jobs and growth and living
:30:07. > :30:12.standards, on the other hand, Euro- Scepticism is now the default
:30:12. > :30:16.position of this country? I don't think it's a problem for us. It's
:30:16. > :30:19.going to get worse for Cameron. Danny Alexander put it well when he
:30:19. > :30:22.said that Cameron's caught between a rhetoric of opposition and the
:30:22. > :30:31.reality of Government. In Michael's time, the one thung they didn't
:30:31. > :30:36.have was all the quotes from cast iron guarantees that David Cameron
:30:36. > :30:41.has hanging over his head -- the one thing. The Lisbon Treaty was
:30:41. > :30:47.endorsed and he said we won't treat this like unfinished business. The
:30:47. > :30:50.backbenchers, they're probably the only centre right party that takes
:30:50. > :30:53.this swivel-eyed view. But they're entitled to ask, when are you going
:30:53. > :30:56.to start this. Ed Miliband's question, what do you want to
:30:56. > :31:03.repatriate and when do you want to start, what's the process? Very
:31:03. > :31:07.difficult for Cameron. It can only get worse because I can't see him
:31:08. > :31:11.rushing... This has the prospect, for the reason Michael gave that,
:31:11. > :31:14.the Germans, we knew almost everything that was going to come
:31:14. > :31:17.out of Brussels last night, the thing that surprised me was that
:31:17. > :31:24.the Germans want to move more quickly towards a fiscal union and
:31:24. > :31:33.to put the structures in place that will do so. It will enef thatibly
:31:33. > :31:36.mean some treaty changing -- treaty -- inevitably mean some treaty
:31:36. > :31:43.changes. This interesting thing that's happened over the last year
:31:43. > :31:48.is that Cameron and Hague have sort of shifted slightly towards a less
:31:48. > :31:53.Euro-Sceptic point. Yes, that's what the backbenchers think? Yes,
:31:53. > :31:57.whereas the senti of gravity of the Tory benches has shifted the other
:31:57. > :32:01.way -- the centre of gravity. think that's a misinterpretation. I
:32:01. > :32:05.don't think that Cameron, Hague and Osborne are any less sceptical than
:32:05. > :32:08.they used to be. They have to be more pragmatic surely because
:32:08. > :32:13.they're dealing with day-to-day international things. They have
:32:13. > :32:16.decided that they want the euro to succeed and even more
:32:16. > :32:19.extraordinarily, they think greater integration in Europe is the way
:32:19. > :32:22.for the euro to succeed. These are all things that before the Tories
:32:22. > :32:28.didn't want to see at all. But, what is the difference between now
:32:28. > :32:37.and 17 years ago is that 17 years ago, we had a Government that was
:32:37. > :32:40.comprised of Major, Clarke and Heseltine, all euro fanatics but a
:32:40. > :32:45.euro sceptical party. The Prime Minister has to say things like,
:32:45. > :32:49.I'm going to recuperate powers when there is a renegotiation and I
:32:49. > :32:52.certainly cannot see how he's going to be able to do that. At some
:32:52. > :32:55.point, the rock is going to meet a hard place because there is going
:32:55. > :32:59.to be a renegotiation. I woke up this morning to hear people saying
:32:59. > :33:03.that the changes that are going to come about in the European Union
:33:04. > :33:06.are going to be game-changing and I believe that to be the case. They
:33:06. > :33:10.are going to go for major reform and no British Government will be
:33:10. > :33:16.able to argue that these are peripheral little changes that
:33:16. > :33:21.don't merit a referendum. Ed Balls, who I interviewed last Friday, did
:33:21. > :33:26.say that if the eurozone moves in the direction that Mrs Merkel and
:33:26. > :33:31.Mr Sarkozy accept that it needs to move on, this does change Britain's
:33:31. > :33:35.relationship with Europe. We can't just stand still and continue as
:33:35. > :33:40.business as usual. We'll have to look at what this means if they're
:33:40. > :33:43.not on the inner core. I think it's absolutely the case that if there
:33:43. > :33:48.is a major, fundamental constitutional change in Europe,
:33:48. > :33:55.there would need to be a referendum. But, you know, the proposition that
:33:55. > :34:00.we were debating on Monday was a kind of, there was a hocky cokey in
:34:00. > :34:07.out or shake it all about and when that comes, when that fundamental
:34:07. > :34:10.change comes, it's going to be very difficult not to have a referendum
:34:10. > :34:14.-- hokey-cokey. My point is that Labour's position is not
:34:14. > :34:18.sustainable as the status quo because the status quo is not
:34:18. > :34:22.sustainable in the new Europe we are heading towards? I think that's
:34:22. > :34:25.probably the case but it De pends what the changes are. If it had
:34:25. > :34:29.been the constitutional change that every party pledged a referendum on
:34:29. > :34:34.in the end, if that comes, that's the promise we have to keep to.
:34:34. > :34:39.Nick Clegg used this word in the coalition agreem, he doesn't use
:34:39. > :34:44.the word reTateration, but he uses rebalancing. Gree. Nick Clegg's
:34:44. > :34:49.spent a lot of time in Brussels and is not an opponent of EU reform. I
:34:49. > :34:54.think the point here is that what we are discussing is a very serious
:34:54. > :35:00.moment, as Michael said, potentially e pop-making moment.
:35:00. > :35:04.The debate in the Commons on Monday was on a motion that was
:35:04. > :35:08.fundamentally unserious. The point I wanted to make with the final
:35:08. > :35:12.moment of the week was that the eurozone's been through a searing
:35:12. > :35:16.experience. We might think from a British perspective, this will make
:35:16. > :35:18.them less keen on the whole thing because they can see it as a rush
:35:18. > :35:22.Iy failure, that's not their mentality at all, they believe all
:35:22. > :35:26.the more they are going to go in for this and all the less can they
:35:26. > :35:30.understand our position, not only of being on the sidelines of it all
:35:30. > :35:34.but wanting to take some powers back. There's no similar that thi
:35:34. > :35:38.for our position whatsoever so there will be a crunch coming aid
:35:38. > :35:44.head. We have not even had time to talk about Vince Cable's tax
:35:44. > :35:47.returns. Heavens, what a disappointment! Thought you would
:35:47. > :35:52.be disappointed with that. Dear reader, you have missed a good
:35:52. > :35:56.opportunity to shut up. We are sick of you criticising us and telling
:35:56. > :36:00.us what to do. When Mr Sarkozy slapped down our very own call me
:36:00. > :36:04.Dave earlier this week, for a brief moment, we thought the pocket
:36:04. > :36:08.rocket President had been reading the viewers section on this prom on
:36:08. > :36:11.the website. It got us thinking about how easy it is also to upset
:36:11. > :36:15.people, for example with pictures of Colonel Gaddafi's final moments
:36:15. > :36:19.widely used across TV news, including on this programme, which
:36:20. > :36:29.some people didn't like, and they told us so. We decided to put
:36:30. > :36:33.
:36:33. > :36:38.taking offence into this week's # Do you really want to hurt me
:36:38. > :36:43.# Do you really want to make me cry... # Solving a debt crisis is
:36:43. > :36:49.tough enough without Europe's leaders mocking each other. Asked
:36:49. > :36:54.if Silvio Berlusconi could be trusted, journalists' giggles
:36:54. > :37:01.greeted the Sarkozy and Merkel smirk with great offence. They were
:37:01. > :37:06.keen to say that no offence was meant. People are using the word
:37:06. > :37:10.demand and humiliation, but there's no humiliation involved. Half David
:37:10. > :37:15.Cameron's backbenchers snubbed him. There is no surprise that the
:37:15. > :37:22.former PR man claimed his feelings were not hurt. There is no, on my
:37:22. > :37:26.part, no bad blood or bitterness. Ricky Gervais was forced to
:37:26. > :37:36.apologise for Tweeting a word that he didn't think was offensive but
:37:36. > :37:40.
:37:41. > :37:44.others were outraged by. The media shows moments of Gaddafi's final
:37:44. > :37:49.moments. David add ten borough knows how to draw the line, even if
:37:49. > :37:56.nature, in all its glory, can be brutish, nasty and short. Hurries
:37:56. > :38:00.back to his mate, but now she seems to have lost her enthusiasm.
:38:00. > :38:03.Remind me of Diane and Michael leaving the programme every night.
:38:03. > :38:08.Richard Bacon joins us. Welcome back to the programme. Thank you.
:38:08. > :38:12.You are a broadcaster. Are you always conscious of avoiding
:38:12. > :38:16.causing offence? Sometimes I like to walk into offence, causing it
:38:16. > :38:22.can be healthy for a programme. But at the moment, I work on Radio 5
:38:22. > :38:25.Live for the BBC, you work for the BBC, it's quite a paranoid and
:38:25. > :38:29.nervous organisation, isn't it? The question they often ask themselves
:38:29. > :38:33.now is not is what we've done offensive and can it be De fended,
:38:33. > :38:39.what they ask themselves is, will this be in the Daily Mail, will the
:38:39. > :38:43.Daily Mail make hey with this. do we care? You see, I think if
:38:43. > :38:46.something is in the paper but can be De fended, so what, it's healthy.
:38:46. > :38:52.But actually, the BBC's scared of being in the papers, so I'm
:38:52. > :38:57.constantly trying to second guess what is and what isn't offensive.
:38:57. > :39:02.There is an unhealthy obsession with what is in the newspapers.
:39:02. > :39:07.Does this mean in this climate that you have act tufly censored
:39:07. > :39:10.yourself not to cause offence? -- actively? Yes, I do it quite a lot.
:39:10. > :39:15.I find myself thinking, could this be picked up by a newspaper because,
:39:15. > :39:21.if it is, I'll then be in trouble. I think it's partly to do with the
:39:21. > :39:26.old Ross Brand affair, I think we are still living in the aftermath
:39:26. > :39:32.of that. Exactly, yes. Do you think also that maybe in this climate
:39:32. > :39:35.today, that people are more inclined to take offence, that they
:39:35. > :39:40.like washing their outrage in public? I think do you know what
:39:40. > :39:43.you can do now because of Twitter and I'm a big De fender of it and I
:39:43. > :39:46.know you are as well, but the problem with it is that if you say
:39:46. > :39:50.this programme has one viewer who didn't like the programme and they
:39:50. > :39:55.can wait for you to make a misstep and then on Twitter you can whip up
:39:55. > :39:59.a bit of a storm and you can gather supporters and get them to complain
:39:59. > :40:04.and before you know it, 20 or 30 people have complained to the BBC
:40:04. > :40:07.and the BBC will get very nervous. While Twitter has made the world
:40:08. > :40:11.more democratic, it's given some people a louder voice than they
:40:11. > :40:15.deserve to have. Do people have the right not to be offended in a
:40:15. > :40:20.democracy? No, they do not. It's really important that we should
:40:20. > :40:24.maintain the right to give offence. You are absolutely right. Twitter
:40:24. > :40:27.is simply the latest itration of an age old problem. When I was a
:40:27. > :40:31.Member of Parliament, quite a long time ago by now, Members of
:40:31. > :40:37.Parliament would come up to you and say, we can't bear the strain of
:40:37. > :40:41.this issue, we've had 500 letters and I would say yes, but you have
:40:41. > :40:45.70,000 constituents who've not written to you and people get so
:40:45. > :40:49.worried about relatively small minorities and you are quite right
:40:49. > :40:53.that self-appointed minorities now can dictate the public taste.
:40:53. > :40:57.That's what it is though. Five complaints, you know, but we've two
:40:57. > :41:01.million listeners, you know, it's OK. Broadcasters decided to treat
:41:01. > :41:06.the final moments of Gaddafi differently from how we had treated
:41:06. > :41:09.other people being killed, just stick to Libya for the moment.
:41:09. > :41:14.There's lots of footage that's not been shown of other people who were
:41:14. > :41:17.killed in Libya, but we decided to treat Gaddafi differently. Was that
:41:17. > :41:22.right or wrong? I thought it was wrong. I didn't
:41:22. > :41:25.like that. I thought, you know, filming what was virtually a
:41:25. > :41:28.lynching. The funny thing about Libya is, you never saw what NATO
:41:28. > :41:32.were doing in Libya, that was really strange that there was no
:41:32. > :41:39.coverage of that. It was dangerous to have a cram ra underneath it
:41:39. > :41:44.though. We saw it in Iraq and we saw the attacks in the Balkans --
:41:44. > :41:48.camera. We didn't see them there. But I think there's different
:41:48. > :41:52.levels to this. I actually feel quite sympathetic to people who
:41:52. > :41:55.write to me because I've used an inappropriate word, particularly
:41:56. > :42:00.people who have strong religious beliefs and if you use a term that
:42:00. > :42:04.you feel is all right down the pub but not on TV. I think when you are
:42:04. > :42:10.broadcasting, you have to recognise there are people out there who get
:42:10. > :42:14.offended quite fairly small things. Are we too soft in the West. People
:42:14. > :42:18.of Libya didn't take that view. They wanted to see that he was
:42:18. > :42:21.dead?! Sfrpblgts yes, they did and actually Alan I think you are wrong
:42:21. > :42:25.about this. Here is what is changed about news. Even's got a video
:42:25. > :42:29.camera in their pocket because they are now built into telephones. I
:42:29. > :42:33.was on the radio when the Gaddafi story broke and had all the News
:42:33. > :42:35.Channels on my monitors, Al-Jazeera rbgz Sky, beeb and they were all
:42:35. > :42:39.rolling with it and showing the footage that had been instantly
:42:39. > :42:43.uploaded to the Internet. So that disturbing footage of his body
:42:43. > :42:48.being flown on to the back of a flat bed truck was everywhere and
:42:48. > :42:54.the whole world talked about it. And to not show it, one channel
:42:54. > :42:58.like the BBC not to have shown it would have been strange.
:42:58. > :43:03.But it's not that long ago when racial slurs, those who were on the
:43:03. > :43:07.receiving end of them, had to bite their bottom lip or, about their
:43:07. > :43:12.sexuality. That's changed now, you don't have to put up with that?
:43:13. > :43:15.No, you don't. That's the up side to political correctness. When
:43:15. > :43:19.people condemn political correctness, I find myself De
:43:19. > :43:22.fending it because in a way, it's a form of institutionalised
:43:22. > :43:27.politeness and those horrible words have gone because of political
:43:27. > :43:31.correctness. It's just OK to show someone being killed. You've not
:43:31. > :43:37.shown shown him being killed though, have you. How can you not show that
:43:37. > :43:42.footage when everybody else is? well if everybody everyone else is
:43:42. > :43:48.showing it. Always a good point to end on, disagreement. That's your
:43:48. > :43:53.lot for tonight, folks, but not for us, oh, no. We've booked a cab and
:43:53. > :43:56.Charles Clarke is waiting outfront, the metre running as usual. Our
:43:56. > :44:02.destination tonight, St Paul's Cathedral of course. We hear there