:00:15. > :00:18.Tonight, This Week invites you into the Political Dragons' Den. As
:00:18. > :00:21.Italy creates a government of non- politicians and Europe stares into
:00:21. > :00:30.the financial abyss, TV historyman, Dan Snow, enters the den to ask if
:00:30. > :00:37.democracy is in crisis. As the crisis deepens, maybe people power
:00:37. > :00:39.is just getting in the way. More economic bad news at home, with the
:00:39. > :00:41.worst unemployment figures for 17 years and lower growth projections.
:00:41. > :00:49.The New Statesman's entrepreneurial political editor, Medhi Hasan,
:00:49. > :00:53.pitches his best idea. The economy is going down the toilet. David
:00:53. > :00:56.Cameron should be cracking down on the bankers, not dressing up and
:00:56. > :00:58.dining with them. Super-model and super business woman, Elle
:00:58. > :01:07.Macpherson, will be talking the pants off us with a political
:01:07. > :01:12.underwear quiz. Being in the industry I search far and wide to
:01:12. > :01:15.find questions that have to do with underwear. And, an authentic dragon,
:01:15. > :01:25.Hilary Devey, comes into This Week's den, to tells us why women
:01:25. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:31.don't need help getting to the top. I've made it on to This Week
:01:31. > :01:41.through sheer determination, hard work and tonnes of tenacity and any
:01:41. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:47.female can do the same. Evening all. Welcome to This Week. And if you
:01:47. > :01:50.think there's something slightly different about us tonight, dear
:01:50. > :01:53.viewer, fear not - with the Occupy Wall Street activists being swept
:01:53. > :01:56.aside just as easily as a UK Border Force Chief from the Manhattan
:01:56. > :01:58.streets and the St Paul's protesters soon to be evicted from
:01:58. > :02:00.their pop-up wigwams and biodegradable yurts, those
:02:00. > :02:03.dastardly BBC bureaucrats have finally decided to lance the
:02:03. > :02:12.festering boil and turf the This Week team out of our regular
:02:12. > :02:17.Westminster studio. Yes, I hear you cry, is there really nothing sacred
:02:17. > :02:20.anymore?! Apparently there've been complaints from the stiffs over on
:02:20. > :02:23.Newsnight about too much late-night drinking, too much rowdy bongo
:02:23. > :02:33.playing and too many items on the economic crisis in the eurozone -
:02:33. > :02:40.
:02:40. > :02:46.featuring Nancy Dell'olio. She is going to join Super Mario's Cabinet
:02:46. > :02:49.of technocrats, I hear! Like we care! So, whilst MPs take a less-
:02:49. > :02:59.than-well-earned half-term break, we've set up camp over here at BBC
:02:59. > :02:59.
:02:59. > :03:02.Arabic for one week only. Just while the fumigation of our old
:03:02. > :03:05.stomping ground takes place. A sort of Arab spring clean. Maybe they'll
:03:05. > :03:08.finally get those stains out that Diane left? Speaking of those who
:03:08. > :03:11.know how to cause a stink, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two
:03:11. > :03:14.of Westminster's most pungent aromas. The smellling salts and
:03:14. > :03:21.smelly cat of late-night political chat - I speak, of course, of
:03:21. > :03:26.Michael Portillo, and Lord John Reid. Welcome. Your moment,
:03:26. > :03:33.Michael? Well, I have a Spanish passport and I've voted in the
:03:33. > :03:38.Spanish election. Just in case you think it started recently, the
:03:38. > :03:41.collapse in Spain, the way you vote there is the way we vote in
:03:42. > :03:47.European elections. You are given six or seven bits of paper, which
:03:47. > :03:52.are the lists of candidates for each party. You have no choice. You
:03:52. > :03:57.have no idea who they are. You played no part in selecting them.
:03:57. > :04:01.The only thing you are allowed to do is fold up the paper and put it
:04:01. > :04:05.into the box. That is the limit of your role in the democratic process,
:04:05. > :04:11.because those people have been chosen by party chiefs. Between now
:04:11. > :04:14.and the next election, they won't give a stuff what I think or anyone
:04:14. > :04:18.else thinks. All they'll think about is what the party chief
:04:19. > :04:28.thinks of them. Because they choose the list? And this is what passes
:04:29. > :04:30.
:04:30. > :04:37.for democracy. Who did you vote for? Popula. The one who is going
:04:37. > :04:45.to win? That's pretty democratic by Italian standards. What was your
:04:45. > :04:49.moment? One event and I'm allowed two moments. Philip Gold's funeral.
:04:49. > :04:52.He was the guy who did the focus groups, so we got the opinion polls
:04:52. > :04:59.that gave us the quantity for oragainst, but the groups gave you
:04:59. > :05:08.the flavour. Regarding strong, too weak, weird and so on. The two
:05:08. > :05:12.moments were first of all, when Tony Blair spoke. When Philip came
:05:12. > :05:17.to the Cabinet and gave us his presentation there was a curious
:05:17. > :05:20.alignment between what the focus groups believed and what Philip
:05:20. > :05:26.believed. I had always assumed that I was the only one in the Cabinet
:05:26. > :05:30.who thought he was making half of this up. I thought Tony believed it,
:05:31. > :05:38.but he was inspired, but he revealed he had noticed that too
:05:38. > :05:43.and the second moment wads your erstwhile guest, Alastair Campbell,
:05:43. > :05:46.who who in a letter he read out, added at the end of it that one of
:05:46. > :05:50.the quotes he got was the best quote he had heard in all his years
:05:50. > :05:54.in politics and I assumed it would be Clinton or Blair or Thatcher,
:05:54. > :06:01.but it was the Queen. It was that quote that grief is the price we
:06:01. > :06:10.pay for love, so hearing Campbell not a well-known monarchist,
:06:10. > :06:14.putting that at the top, was a moment to be savoured. I thought
:06:14. > :06:18.you meant when the Queen asked all the economists, why didn't you see
:06:18. > :06:22.all this meltdown coming?. Come a bit closer. I don't want these two
:06:22. > :06:27.to hear me. Closer. That's quite close enough. I wanted to say that
:06:27. > :06:31.we could be seeing people lose just a teeny weany bit of faith with
:06:31. > :06:35.politicians' ability to sort out events like the world financial
:06:35. > :06:43.crisis. It seems like just maybe they don't have a clue what to do.
:06:43. > :06:48.Should we follow the example set by sin nor montity in Italy? Democracy,
:06:48. > :06:53.in 2012, has is finally become a bit dated? Is Europe undergoing an
:06:53. > :07:03.Arab Spring in reverse? A sort of European winter for democracy. Here
:07:03. > :07:07.
:07:07. > :07:11.is the story from Dan show. -- Dan Snow. It's often said that laws are
:07:11. > :07:15.like sausages, sometimes best not to see how they're made, but in
:07:15. > :07:19.this room in the Houses of Parliament those sausages are on
:07:19. > :07:23.display. These are all the Acts passed over the past few hundred
:07:24. > :07:28.years. These are the product of our democracy. It's seen in Britain and
:07:28. > :07:30.throughout the world as the Holy Grail. The only system that really
:07:30. > :07:34.confers legitimacyment it's so important that in the last few
:07:34. > :07:41.years alone, hundreds of thousands of people have died fighting in its
:07:41. > :07:48.name. Now, with the worst recession since the 1930's causing global
:07:48. > :07:53.unrest, people are starting to ask whether we need strong, decisive
:07:53. > :07:57.leadership unhindered by electoral politics. China and Russia are
:07:57. > :08:00.grinning with glee that they can made the bold decisions necessary
:08:00. > :08:04.to bet them out of trouble without the democratic checks. It seems
:08:04. > :08:13.like the first time since the Cold War that democracy is under assault.
:08:13. > :08:18.Just in the last few weeks, democratically elected Italy in --
:08:18. > :08:21.elected leaders in Greece and Italy have been replaced. The new Italian
:08:21. > :08:26.Prime Minister has failed to put any professional politicians in his
:08:26. > :08:32.Cabinet at all. Will the rest of the eurozone countries follow suit?
:08:32. > :08:37.Should we be alarmed at the march of the technocrats? Well, no.
:08:37. > :08:42.Critically both new Prime Ministers have had to win majorities in their
:08:42. > :08:44.respective parliaments. Both have won confidence votes. These are not
:08:44. > :08:49.dictatorships. These are slight tweaking of the contusional
:08:49. > :08:54.practice. Even here in Britain, we have done similar thing in the past.
:08:55. > :08:58.We have tweaked democracy slightly in the face of grave crises. David
:08:58. > :09:02.Lloyd George and Churchill brought in businessmen to run key
:09:02. > :09:05.Government ministries during the world wars. The last three Prime
:09:05. > :09:11.Ministers have all appointed unelected ministers through the
:09:11. > :09:16.back door of House of Lords. Always remember that every country that
:09:17. > :09:21.has turned its back on democracy has lived to regret it. When a
:09:22. > :09:26.Government passes one of these, a law, it does so with one eye on
:09:26. > :09:33.what it thinks it should do and one eye with what it thinks the public
:09:33. > :09:37.will let it get away with. If a dictator was in Greece there would
:09:37. > :09:42.be a revolution and nobody would then benefit. The real lesson here
:09:42. > :09:47.is that sometimes we are faced by events that no government, no
:09:47. > :09:53.matter how many acts it passes, is able to parole. In those situations,
:09:53. > :09:59.some people lose their faith. They start to listen to begieling
:09:59. > :10:08.extreme alternatives. But the lesson -- beguiling, extreme
:10:08. > :10:12.alternatives, but the lesson from history is clear, they don't work.
:10:12. > :10:17.Dan Snow joining us now. Welcome back to the programme. Michael, you
:10:17. > :10:22.heard what Dan had to say. The technocrats are in charge in Athens
:10:22. > :10:26.and in Rome. There seems a distinct lack of leadership at the top of
:10:26. > :10:31.the eurozone. Is democracy under assault? Yes, I think it is and I
:10:31. > :10:36.think it has been for some time, because the EU has consistently
:10:36. > :10:40.until the last few days, have a number of democracies, but the
:10:40. > :10:44.institution in the union have not been democratic and that has been
:10:44. > :10:49.the so-called deficit which has existed for a long time. Also, for
:10:49. > :10:55.a long time, European elites have existed, that have a concept of
:10:55. > :10:58.what is good for the rest of us. They've taken us on this path of
:10:59. > :11:01.ever-closer European Union and from time to time there have been
:11:02. > :11:06.referendums. Whenever a referendum has delivered a result that the
:11:06. > :11:12.elite didn't like the people were sent back to vote again. One way or
:11:12. > :11:17.another I think there have been a lot of assaults on democracy. I
:11:17. > :11:22.also fear that a lot of this problem is caused by a malfuction,
:11:22. > :11:25.which is that politicians find it very difficult to postpone people's
:11:25. > :11:29.gratification, so they always want to give people what they want today,
:11:29. > :11:35.which is why you end up spending too much and borrowing too much.
:11:35. > :11:38.The euro of course is an example of this. The politicians who devise
:11:38. > :11:42.the it couldn't postpone their own gratification. They couldn't wait
:11:42. > :11:47.until countries were actually ready and qualified to enter the euro. No,
:11:47. > :11:54.no, no. They had to get 17 in from the beginning. They took in places
:11:54. > :11:57.like Italy and Greece. Completely unsuited. John, could imagine --
:11:57. > :12:03.could you imagine, or what would happen if it were announced that
:12:03. > :12:09.the Cabinet in Britain would be composed entirely of unelected
:12:09. > :12:19.members? Well, I think the result from British people might be three
:12:19. > :12:25.
:12:25. > :12:30.cheers instantly, but I think let's not exaggerate the move. When we
:12:30. > :12:33.have hit crises like this, there ha been a mile taken away. I assume
:12:34. > :12:43.you are joking there. What would the British reaction be if we ended
:12:43. > :12:46.up with a Government who we hadn't People would be furious and rightly
:12:46. > :12:50.so. Michael was right because there is a huge democratic deficit in
:12:50. > :12:57.Europe. There is nothing more frustrating I can tell you as a
:12:57. > :13:00.Minister - he will have done it - having to deal with an unelected
:13:01. > :13:04.commission. You can shift this ship of European state as it were a
:13:04. > :13:08.little bit to the left, or to the right and slow it up. You can
:13:08. > :13:13.hardly move the direction. You have a Parliament which is largely
:13:13. > :13:19.elected by the same system that you were making fun of earlier which is
:13:19. > :13:27.why very few people know their own MPs. I think this is a natural
:13:27. > :13:31.consequence in European history. All right, let me bring Dan in. If
:13:31. > :13:37.there is a democratic deficit, it's got bigger, it's got bigger in
:13:37. > :13:47.Greece and in Italy. You talked about a "tweaking of democracy" but
:13:47. > :13:48.
:13:48. > :13:53.it is a suspension of democracy? The point about democracy - we live
:13:53. > :13:58.in representative democracies. That is why Europe is a mess. The
:13:58. > :14:02.Parliament is a non-entity. In Greece, Italy and Britain it is
:14:02. > :14:05.acceptable within the Convention to say as long as Parliament agrees,
:14:05. > :14:09.clearly to suspend Parliament - although it is worth remembering
:14:09. > :14:14.during the Second World War there was no general election for ten
:14:14. > :14:20.years... Hitler was elected by proportional representation!
:14:20. > :14:24.Absolutely. Which he burnt down. The point is, in Italy, he's had to
:14:24. > :14:27.go to Parliament and they so far have had confidence in him. Also,
:14:27. > :14:33.the last Labour Government, we forget when Gordon Brown went on
:14:33. > :14:37.holiday, who was our stand-in Prime Minister? Lord Mandelson. That is
:14:37. > :14:43.hardly the same as having a whole Cabinet of technocrats! He didn't
:14:43. > :14:46.do anything. He made a lot of noise. Because he could whip - in the
:14:46. > :14:52.British constitution everything comes down to the ability to
:14:52. > :14:56.command a majority in the House of Commons. It would be very rare, but
:14:56. > :14:59.it would not be constitutionally impossible as long as the Commons
:14:59. > :15:04.allowed that Government... We know that is not going to happen.
:15:04. > :15:09.thing that is worrying about this is if in Italy it is seriously
:15:09. > :15:12.believed that a Cabinet made up of technocrats with nobody elected has
:15:12. > :15:16.a better chance of pushing through the measures that are needed, that
:15:16. > :15:20.tells you that the belief in democracy by the people has really
:15:20. > :15:25.reached a state of rottenness. I mean, the reason it couldn't happen
:15:25. > :15:29.in Britain, I think, is that to me - I hope I don't sound as if I'm
:15:29. > :15:34.speaking for the trade unions of politicians - if there is a really
:15:34. > :15:41.difficult issue here, people won't like it so we must get someone who
:15:42. > :15:51.is not elected and that seems to me bizarre. You two are biased. The
:15:51. > :15:54.point - politicians that you elect to beat up the legislature and
:15:55. > :16:00.people who are in executive positions. That is why we have a
:16:00. > :16:10.lack of talented people who run big ministries, people who run the
:16:10. > :16:18.NHS... The American Cabinet is not exactly full of talent? Hank
:16:18. > :16:21.Poulson presided over the meltdown? They are beaten up... The premise
:16:21. > :16:27.behind the American constitution is to constitute a government that
:16:27. > :16:31.doesn't work because the power is dispersed. You separate... Let's
:16:31. > :16:39.not get a lecture on the American constitution. Let me bring you back
:16:39. > :16:47.to this... To bring in talent... Please, let me come back to the
:16:47. > :16:50.current situation. Perhaps the technocrats are useful to the
:16:50. > :16:54.politicians because they will hide behind them and say you do all the
:16:54. > :16:57.tough stuff and then when that is done, we will come back in? No, it
:16:58. > :17:03.is because they bring in a particular talent. British
:17:03. > :17:13.governments have constantly brought in people with talent but the
:17:13. > :17:15.
:17:15. > :17:19.balance has always been not only the ability to remove... I agree
:17:19. > :17:26.with Andrew's proposition. What is happening here is indeed they have
:17:26. > :17:32.been brought in to do unpopular things. More and more politicians
:17:32. > :17:38.have been elected, they say, "These decisions are too difficult for me
:17:38. > :17:42.to take, I will appoint a quango..." Technocrats... Issues
:17:42. > :17:45.that are really important - you were Health Secretary - which drugs
:17:45. > :17:49.will be available to which people. No politician wants to take that
:17:49. > :17:55.decision any more. It's given over to... I am not sure politicians
:17:55. > :17:58.should be taking that decision. not? I want to decide what drugs I
:17:58. > :18:04.take. I want them to drag the people who are making the decisions
:18:04. > :18:10.through the mud and make sure... you are elected to Parliament, you
:18:10. > :18:14.really should take decisions and then you can say, "I took this
:18:14. > :18:17.decision and I am willing to defend it." You are right. You have to say
:18:17. > :18:22.to our elected representatives, "This is why I have followed this
:18:22. > :18:27.course of action." The Italian Parliament has disbanded themselves.
:18:27. > :18:32.There is a Cabinet, they will have to sell it to Parliament. If they
:18:32. > :18:40.don't win a confidence vote, they get kicked out. This studio is not
:18:40. > :18:45.a democracy. We have run out of time. The idea... No, we have run
:18:45. > :18:53.out... What bit of that did you not understand? Thank you very much,
:18:53. > :19:00.Dan. Now come fly with us because we've had a quick whip round and
:19:00. > :19:03.come up with the �20,000 needed to keep us on the air past midnight!
:19:03. > :19:05.And to provide some pretty decent in-flight entertainment with Hilary
:19:05. > :19:10.Devey from Dragons' Den talking about the politics of positive
:19:10. > :19:13.discrimination. And for those who are more than happy to display
:19:13. > :19:22.their prejudices, you can follow us on the interweb, on Twitter - oh
:19:22. > :19:26.yes - and don't forget The Facebook! Now politics can get a
:19:26. > :19:29.bit rough and ready, bad-tempered even some might say. Those
:19:29. > :19:35.politicians really should learn to mind their Ps and Qs more. We sent
:19:35. > :19:40.our own rough diamond, Mehdi Hasan, off to get some tips on etiquette.
:19:40. > :19:49.Finishing school? It nearly finished him off. This is his
:19:49. > :19:59.round-up of the week. # You either got
:19:59. > :20:08.
:20:08. > :20:18.# A flour is not a flour -- a flower is not a flower
:20:18. > :20:23.
:20:23. > :20:27.David Cameron knows how to tie a bow tie but he could work on his
:20:27. > :20:37.manners. This week one of his backbenchers is said to have
:20:37. > :20:40.
:20:40. > :20:45.described him as an "arse" - harsh words perhaps. We agreed in a
:20:45. > :20:49.historic agreement that if the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge have a
:20:49. > :20:53.little girl, that girl will be our Queen. At the end of this meeting I
:20:53. > :21:00.turn to the Australian Prime Minister and said thank you very
:21:00. > :21:07.much Julia for allowing us to have this meeting in Australia and she
:21:07. > :21:11.said, "Not a bit, David! This is good news for Sheilas everywhere."
:21:11. > :21:15.Doesn't the Prime Minister know it is rude to gloat when one's
:21:15. > :21:19.neighbours are in trouble. Mr Cameron described himself as a
:21:19. > :21:23.eurosceptic. Yes, that's right. A Prime Minister educated at Eton and
:21:23. > :21:30.Oxford, a former member of the Bullingdon Club, he said it's the
:21:30. > :21:40.EU that is out of touch. You could not make it up. We have a vital
:21:40. > :21:46.
:21:46. > :21:51.point. We should look scepticly at grand plans and Utopian visions.
:21:51. > :21:56.But our cousins are not in a mood to listen to us. One of Angela
:21:56. > :22:00.Merkel's MPs claimed that now Europe is now speaking German and
:22:00. > :22:04.Angela Merkel has claimed Europe is facing its darkest hour since World
:22:04. > :22:12.War Two. If you are a German leader accused of taking over Europe, best
:22:12. > :22:19.not to mention the war. Again. Breathe in, breathe out. In. Out.
:22:19. > :22:25.Good. Nick Clegg, a graduate of Westminster School and Cambridge
:22:25. > :22:32.University showed us how important it is to set your guest at ease by
:22:32. > :22:36.communicating with them in their own lan wadge. I am delighted --
:22:36. > :22:45.own language. I am delighted to welcome the Dutch Prime Minister.
:22:45. > :22:50.HE SPEAKS DUTCH This week Lord Leveson launched his inquiry into
:22:50. > :22:54.mediaethics. My own view is simple: Never listen into someone else's
:22:54. > :23:00.phone call. Any etiquette guide would tell you that now is the time
:23:00. > :23:07.to apologise. Hello? That phone hacking was wrong. It was shameful.
:23:07. > :23:11.It should never have happened. News International apologises for it
:23:11. > :23:15.unreservedly. Are we going to get anything other than apologys from
:23:15. > :23:24.this inquiry? I doubt it. The Home Secretary said this week that she
:23:24. > :23:32.had nothing to apologise for. Her problems with -- were with the
:23:32. > :23:35.below stairs staff. This week Brodie Clark testified. I am no
:23:35. > :23:40.rogue officer. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am very
:23:40. > :23:46.conscious that over 40 years I have built up a reputation and over two
:23:46. > :23:50.days that reputation has been destroyed and I believe that that
:23:50. > :24:00.has been largely from the contributions made by the Home
:24:00. > :24:15.
:24:15. > :24:20.Secretary. Mr Clark -- Mr Clark's My new friend says we are all in
:24:20. > :24:23.this together. But are we really? Bankers are walking away with
:24:23. > :24:29.massive city bonuses while on Wednesday the latest unemployment
:24:29. > :24:31.figures showed 2.6 million people out of work with youth unemployment
:24:31. > :24:36.crossing the million mark for the first time. Labour governments
:24:37. > :24:41.always run out of money, but Tory governments run out of jobs.
:24:41. > :24:45.think these figures are deeply concerning. The highest figure for
:24:45. > :24:49.young people's unemployment since records began. The Government can't
:24:49. > :24:53.keep blaming the rest of the world for problems which are made in
:24:53. > :25:02.Britain, our recovery choked off a year ago. We need action now to get
:25:02. > :25:12.jobs and our economy moving. last word should go to Baroness
:25:12. > :25:17.Trumpington. The survivors of World War Two started to look pretty old
:25:17. > :25:24.as well. As the Baroness reminded me... Claiming to be one of the
:25:24. > :25:34.oldest survivors in this House. # Got or you haven't got
:25:34. > :25:41.
:25:41. > :25:51.# Style. # That was fun! Back to life in the
:25:51. > :25:53.
:25:53. > :26:00.99%! No product placement on the BBC?!
:26:00. > :26:08.So, Mr Happy, another week, you enjoyed it? It is of course getting
:26:08. > :26:15.worse. It is. Britain is still paying a very low rate of interest
:26:15. > :26:18.on its borrowings. Other than that, it's getting bad. I am sure there
:26:18. > :26:22.is much more to come. I don't think we will come through this without a
:26:22. > :26:25.fall in living standards, without having to make changes to the
:26:25. > :26:29.welfare state, to the National Health Service. People are only
:26:29. > :26:34.just beginning to realise this isn't just a euro crisis. It is a
:26:34. > :26:39.moment in history when power is passing from the West to the East.
:26:39. > :26:47.We will have to change the way we live. How powerless do you think it
:26:47. > :26:50.is? The British economy? eurozone situation and...
:26:50. > :26:55.eurozone was a misconceived idea from the start. People who thought
:26:55. > :26:59.they could impose their will through sheer politics on 17
:26:59. > :27:03.different nations, as Michael said, of different competitive levels, it
:27:03. > :27:07.was always going to blow up like this. Is it going to blow snup
:27:07. > :27:11.think that three things will happen. I think there will be default,
:27:11. > :27:15.which is happening already. I think that there is a likelihood that
:27:15. > :27:18.there will be a fragmentation of one or two countries from it. The
:27:18. > :27:24.only way it will be preserved is by drawing more power of taxation to
:27:24. > :27:28.the centre and setting up yet more of the apparatus of European
:27:28. > :27:34.governments and I hope that our Government is contemplating what
:27:34. > :27:38.they will do at that stage for the other ones who are not in the
:27:38. > :27:47.eurozone. If John is right - you couldn't rule out a breaking of the
:27:47. > :27:55.eurozone into a league of the north and a collection at the bottom. The
:27:55. > :28:02.immediate consequences - they would be horrendous. It would probably
:28:02. > :28:08.throw Europe into a depression? Well, we are in an horrendous
:28:08. > :28:12.situation. The issue... Horrendous? Yes. Which is more and which is
:28:12. > :28:17.less horrendous? Countries leaving or countries not leaving? You have
:28:17. > :28:26.to sit down and plot which of these will be more expensive and more
:28:26. > :28:32.difficult. What I thought interesting was David Cameron made
:28:32. > :28:36.the eurosceptic speech. They are on opposite paths. One of the
:28:36. > :28:40.consequences will be the most enormous clash between the eurozone
:28:40. > :28:43.and Britain. Recognising that cuerblg moment and the need to
:28:43. > :28:50.rebalance for those not in the eurozone, thank God Labour finally
:28:50. > :28:53.spoke out. Douglas Alexander made an interesting speech which dealt
:28:53. > :28:59.with this issue. There is a growing recognition it may not be one
:28:59. > :29:09.sudden moment of crisis, but we are in a process that will bring about
:29:09. > :29:09.
:29:09. > :29:14.some critical change in the nature You get the feeling this decade is
:29:14. > :29:18.going to be a watershed decade. It's true. We have a former Home
:29:18. > :29:22.Secretary here, so I want to move on to this. Theresa May. She seems
:29:22. > :29:27.to be in a stronger place this week than she was a week ago? I think
:29:27. > :29:34.this will change by the day. I know her and I also know Brodie Clark,
:29:34. > :29:37.so I'm not going to go - He was in situ when you were there? He did.
:29:37. > :29:42.Incidentally, after I had described the Home Office immigration
:29:42. > :29:47.department as not fit for purpose, which I can reveal was not my words,
:29:47. > :29:51.it was the words of a senior Civil Servant who had commissioned inside
:29:51. > :29:57.to study the processes and structures. This was a Home Office
:29:57. > :30:00.Civil Servant who used these words? Yes, it was. He basically said that
:30:00. > :30:05.the immigration department was deficient if structures, systems,
:30:05. > :30:11.training, all the things I said and he used that phrase. I wasn't
:30:11. > :30:14.saying this against my leading Civil Servant. People like that
:30:14. > :30:19.Civil Servant and head of immigration and Brodie Clark helped
:30:19. > :30:23.us to reform it. Now, there will be an inquiry. I don't judge that. But
:30:23. > :30:27.the key question is this - let's get rid of the myth that there's
:30:27. > :30:31.100% security at borders. There isn't and there can't be. We'll get
:30:31. > :30:35.rit of the myth that sometimes is perpetrated in the newspapers that
:30:35. > :30:40.everybody who comes in should be subject to the same scrutiny. Quite
:30:40. > :30:45.frankly a bus load of veterans going to Dunkirk and going back, or
:30:45. > :30:49.Saga holidays shouldn't be subject to the same scrutiny as a flight-
:30:49. > :30:53.load of people from the Yemen. about someone in a bright green
:30:53. > :30:57.shirt? They would immediately stand out and intelligence-led inquiries
:30:57. > :31:05.would have you body search them. You are seriously dealing with risk
:31:05. > :31:13.management and the real question at the bot many -- bottom of this,
:31:13. > :31:17.where there exceptional health and safety standards were they becoming
:31:17. > :31:21.routinely used because of lack of resources or management deficiency.
:31:21. > :31:26.That is the real question. Is it your impression that the Home
:31:26. > :31:29.Office, even though it's been cut in half, because we have the
:31:29. > :31:34.Justice Ministry now. Is it still not fit for purpose? No, I think
:31:34. > :31:37.it's hugely improved over where it was. Full credit to people who work
:31:37. > :31:41.there. Although there was opposition to me splitting the Home
:31:41. > :31:44.Office, nobody wants to put it back together. Although there was
:31:44. > :31:47.opposition from others to me centralising the office of security
:31:47. > :31:54.and counter-terrorism, nobody wants to get rid of that, so I think -
:31:54. > :31:58.and all the indicators show that they are second-top on
:31:58. > :32:02.departmentmental processes now. However, they have a problem of
:32:02. > :32:07.amazing magnitude with immigration, because the world has changed so
:32:07. > :32:11.radically now. 250 million people a year don't just travel, they get up
:32:12. > :32:17.and move somewhere else. More than the whole of Brazil. The old ways
:32:17. > :32:23.of doing things are no longer fit for the world in which we live in.
:32:23. > :32:28.That is what they are trying to modernise. Finally, Baroness
:32:28. > :32:34.Trumpington, do you think politics were more refreshinging if people
:32:34. > :32:40.were as honest as her? She is a wonderful woman. There was on
:32:40. > :32:45.occasion some years ago where a point was made in the House of
:32:45. > :32:49.Lords and she uttered an expletive and I can't repeat it, but it's the
:32:49. > :32:55.surname of the Shadow Chancellor and when it was recorded in the
:32:55. > :33:00.Hansard in the House of Lords it appeared as nonsense. They had
:33:00. > :33:05.removed that five-letter word. Shadow Chancellor is now called Mr
:33:05. > :33:09.Nonsense. We have to move on. We are very much in favour of quotas
:33:09. > :33:14.here on this programme. Every week there must be one mention of Blue
:33:14. > :33:19.Nun. Two references to Italian bond yield spikes. We'll be anding in
:33:19. > :33:24.Spanish ones too and a minimum of three shots of Michael looking smug
:33:24. > :33:28.about his long-held predictions of a eurozone meltdown. Let's face it,
:33:28. > :33:32.the phrase positive discem nation hardly does justice to the motley
:33:32. > :33:36.collection of underqualified Westminster wonders who have graced
:33:36. > :33:41.our sofa over the years. With the senior judge calling for more
:33:41. > :33:51.action to promote women into top legal jobs this week, we decided it
:33:51. > :33:51.
:33:51. > :33:54.was time to put the glass ceiling in our spotlight. Few women
:33:54. > :34:00.havaries tonne the top quit like the grocer's daughter from
:34:00. > :34:07.Lincolnshire, who ruled a man's world with a lady-like fist of iron.
:34:07. > :34:10.Gentlemen, shall we join the ladies? The Home Secretary has
:34:10. > :34:13.certainly broken through the political glass ceiling. She is one
:34:13. > :34:23.of the few women in the Cabinet, does it make it more difficult to
:34:23. > :34:24.
:34:24. > :34:27.sack her? Master of the Rolls thinks there is a problem in the
:34:27. > :34:34.judiciary, calling for women to be favoured for new appointments, and
:34:34. > :34:37.he appears to have the backing of the Justice Secretary. The Prime
:34:37. > :34:43.Minister has criticised the business community for not doing
:34:43. > :34:46.more to promote women to the top jobs. I want it see more women in
:34:46. > :34:49.Britain's boardrooms and that would have a thoroughly good influence.
:34:49. > :34:57.If the glass ceiling still exists what is the best way of making some
:34:57. > :35:07.cracks? Perhaps Hilary Devey has the answer and wants to make us an
:35:07. > :35:09.
:35:09. > :35:13.offer. It's none a product for me. I'm sorry, I'm out. She joins us
:35:13. > :35:19.here. Welcome. Thank you. Do you think there should be more women in
:35:19. > :35:22.the boardroom? Yes, I do. But I also think there's plenty of
:35:22. > :35:27.opportunities for women to fight their way into the boardroom and I
:35:27. > :35:32.think this is a multi-faceted debate, because it's whether or not
:35:32. > :35:35.females have to make sacrifices that men don't and it's whether
:35:35. > :35:39.they wish to make those sacrifices that will take testimony into the
:35:39. > :35:44.boardroom. We hear this phrase a lot. It's been around for several
:35:44. > :35:52.decades, the glass ceiling. Do you think it exists? Absolutely not.
:35:52. > :35:57.You don't? No, I don't. Rubbish. Tell why. A manicured fist will go
:35:57. > :36:02.quite as easily through a glass ceiling as a builder's fist,
:36:02. > :36:05.rubbish. Do you think there's a difference if you take boderooms,
:36:05. > :36:11.which are one thing and they private in private, behind closed
:36:11. > :36:16.doors and they have a commercial purpose, but the judiciary, our
:36:16. > :36:20.politicians, wouldn't we be better if they were more representative of
:36:21. > :36:25.the society? Yes, of course we would, because if you take all the
:36:25. > :36:30.skills that a woman practises in the home, in every day of her
:36:30. > :36:34.lifestyle, which are generally even if she is at home with children,
:36:34. > :36:40.listening skills, time management, budgetary controls and so on,
:36:40. > :36:44.patience, you take all those skills, then the perfect ingredients for
:36:44. > :36:49.any boardroom or for any senior management or directorial role.
:36:49. > :36:54.you think there's ever a case for positive discrimination? Now there
:36:54. > :36:59.isn't, but I think the problem that you've got is it's all down to
:36:59. > :37:04.genetics and the fact is that women have children, women want children,
:37:04. > :37:08.and therefore they want to take time from work to have those
:37:08. > :37:11.children. Do you think positive discrimination works, Michael?
:37:11. > :37:15.think in very particular circumstances. For instance, in
:37:15. > :37:18.political parties, where the candidates for election are not
:37:18. > :37:21.chosen by a scientific for management process, or chosen by
:37:21. > :37:24.people who are trained. In the Conservative Party, women were
:37:25. > :37:30.entitled to believe they had no chance of being selected or almost
:37:30. > :37:35.no chance and therefore I favoured positive action to send the message
:37:36. > :37:39.that they stood a chance. In boardrooms, where management
:37:39. > :37:44.processes apply I would be much more nervous. One of the things
:37:45. > :37:51.that worries me is they've been so overwhelmed by political
:37:51. > :37:54.correctness, having various people who represent various groups, they
:37:54. > :37:59.they cease to be effective as boards. You see the chaos in
:37:59. > :38:05.banking, because it seems to me that the boards of banks weren't
:38:05. > :38:07.qualified to make judgments. you support, John, the famous
:38:07. > :38:11.experiment with positive discrimination in Labour Party,
:38:11. > :38:15.which was called the Blair's Babes and it changed the face of the
:38:15. > :38:21.party in the Commons. Did it work? I was exep kel about it, but I
:38:21. > :38:25.think it did work. -- sceptical about it, but it did work. My view
:38:25. > :38:29.is possibly a little old-fashioned as regard the public sector
:38:29. > :38:33.politics. The most underrepresented groups, if you are looking for
:38:33. > :38:37.representation, is men, women, people from the ethnic minorities
:38:37. > :38:41.and so on, who could from a working-class background and it is
:38:41. > :38:45.no longer fashionable to speak about that. You just need to look
:38:45. > :38:51.at the Cabinet. It's not a criticism. Some of us made a
:38:51. > :38:54.documentary about it. If you are going to have some form of public
:38:54. > :38:59.discrimination in order to get a more representative group of people,
:38:59. > :39:03.you cannot do it without looking at people who come from backgrounds
:39:03. > :39:07.that are less we will-off than others. That is my only view. That
:39:07. > :39:12.is men and women and people from ennick minorities. Hilary, in a
:39:12. > :39:19.sense you are the productive of positive discrimination and you
:39:19. > :39:25.were chosen for the Den because you are female? I don't know. Possibly.
:39:25. > :39:35.They have to have a woman. They have to have a woman? You are now
:39:35. > :39:35.
:39:35. > :39:38.it. I'm now it? Equally, I come from a very, very male-dominated
:39:38. > :39:41.industry and I have been championing women for skills in
:39:41. > :39:46.logistics and trying to bring women into the industry, because there is
:39:47. > :39:52.no reason a female can't do the job equally as good as a male, down to
:39:52. > :39:57.every facet of that job. We saw that - Yet, I've not succeeded.
:39:57. > :40:00.saw the clip of the Iron Lady. It doesn't look, when you look at both
:40:00. > :40:06.the major parties at the moment, Liberal Democrats have very few
:40:06. > :40:11.women too, so we'll include them, three, that there is another party
:40:11. > :40:16.female leader waiting in the wings. One would hope so. It doesn't look
:40:16. > :40:19.like it, does it? Who knows what tomorrow brings? That is true. Mrs
:40:19. > :40:23.Thatcher said there would never be a woman in her lifetime. It didn't
:40:23. > :40:28.look as if there would be in 1974, when she was Education Secretary.
:40:28. > :40:35.It's hard to tell. All right. OK. Don't go away. We are going to have
:40:35. > :40:38.a quiz. Now, with winterval almost upon us- I do like a pagan festival
:40:38. > :40:40.- minds naturally turn to festive delights and Christmas stockings.
:40:40. > :40:43.Or, in Michael's case, Christmas stockings, Pippa Pants and those
:40:43. > :40:46.strange suspender belt tights that Rihanna's always wearing. So what
:40:46. > :40:56.better time for our very own Elle Macpherson inquiry and a political
:40:56. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:06.underwear quiz? Elle, take it away. Being in the industry I searched
:41:06. > :41:10.far and wide to find questions that had to do with underwear. Question
:41:10. > :41:16.- which British member of Parliament posted a picture of
:41:16. > :41:23.himself wearing just underpants, on an on-line dating website? Chris
:41:23. > :41:33.Bryant. Chris Bryant.El, answer? The answer is Labour MP and
:41:33. > :41:34.
:41:34. > :41:38.Shadow immigration minister, Chris Bryant. This is a two-part question.
:41:38. > :41:43.Which British politician was continually marked by cartoonist
:41:43. > :41:49.Steve Bell for tucking his shirt into his underpants? Who was
:41:49. > :41:56.responsible for spreading the rumour in the first place? John
:41:56. > :42:01.Major. Alastair Campbell. Let's find out. The answer is, do you
:42:01. > :42:07.know it? It is John Major and Alastair Campbell. You got that
:42:07. > :42:15.right. Final question. This is a good one because I happen to know
:42:15. > :42:25.the person in the question. Which politician's wife once model
:42:25. > :42:26.
:42:26. > :42:32.underwear for the Next catalogue. Cos -- Nicolas Sarkozy's wife.
:42:32. > :42:38.Let's go back to Elle. It is President Sarkozy's wife in the
:42:38. > :42:44.spring and summer catalogue 1989. It's back to you, Andrew. There you
:42:44. > :42:51.go. I thought she was kind on you. I'm told, just before we go, you
:42:51. > :42:56.are a 40-a -day smoker? No, but not that much. What do you think about
:42:56. > :43:00.the car idea? Ridiculous. Infringement on human rights. Where
:43:00. > :43:06.is the democracy going? It's good to say what you think? Absolutely.
:43:06. > :43:09.Thank you very much. Good luck on the Den too. Pleasure. That's your
:43:09. > :43:12.lot for tonight folks, but not for us. We're piling back to Michael's
:43:12. > :43:15.for a Blue Nun party seven and a toast sandwich, known around
:43:15. > :43:17.Westminster as a Theresa May's career sandwich. But we leave you
:43:17. > :43:27.with the winnners of Best Political Double Act at last night's
:43:27. > :43:33.Spectator Awards shindig. Nighty night, don't let the Lovecats bite.
:43:33. > :43:41.If I had to put money on who might get the act, I think I might have
:43:41. > :43:45.said Chris Huhne and Vicky Price. I'm also tempted to say actually