:00:12. > :00:21.As the winter weather begins to bite, This Week marks the end of
:00:21. > :00:25.David Attenborough's epic series Arctic conditions blowing across
:00:25. > :00:28.the eurozone. Is David Cameron about to be frozen out of Europe's
:00:28. > :00:37.future? Tory activist and blogger Tim Montgomerie gives the PM the
:00:38. > :00:41.cold shoulder. As well as fighting for Britain's place in Europe,
:00:41. > :00:45.David Cameron also has to deal with the icy relations with his own
:00:45. > :00:48.party. A festive scene in far-away lands
:00:48. > :00:51.but is Germany willing to play the role of Father Christmas?
:00:51. > :01:01.Journalist and commentator, Anne McElvoy, goes back in time to look
:01:01. > :01:01.
:01:01. > :01:06.for some answers. Britain and Europe need some festive cheer, but
:01:07. > :01:10.can Angela and Nicholas serve it up. And a spectacular light show in the
:01:10. > :01:12.Arctic skies but are the Olympic fireworks really worth the extra
:01:12. > :01:20.millions? One of Newham's most chilled residents, comedian Andi
:01:20. > :01:24.Osho, is getting hot under the collar. While the finishing touches
:01:24. > :01:29.are being put on the Olympic stadium, I am worried about the
:01:29. > :01:39.legacy that will be left behind for local people. This is the political
:01:39. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:44.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. And a special welcome to pro-
:01:44. > :01:47.Europeans in the Tory Party, fans of Tony Blair in the Labour Party
:01:47. > :01:53.and, come the next election, Members of Parliament from the
:01:54. > :02:00.Liberal Democrats. Endangered species, one and all, the likes of
:02:00. > :02:04.which we may never see again. But when it comes to those on the verge
:02:04. > :02:07.of extinction maybe we've turned a corner. Because this week
:02:07. > :02:10.Westminster's very own panda, Ed Miliband, was joined by two more
:02:10. > :02:13.doe-eyed creatures, raised, like him, in a Marxist one-party state
:02:13. > :02:15.after the Chinese finally stepped in to help the floundering eurozone,
:02:15. > :02:23.not with their foreign exchange reserves but with their panda-
:02:23. > :02:25.exchange reserves. Just what the British economy needs, two more
:02:25. > :02:29.unemployed layabouts sponging off the state, desperately trying to
:02:29. > :02:36.get knocked up in a sordid attempt to keep a taxpayer-funded roof over
:02:36. > :02:41.their heads. But I suppose that means they'll feel pretty much at
:02:41. > :02:44.home in Scotland. Speaking of those who are a burden on society, I'm
:02:44. > :02:47.joined on the sofa tonight by two of politics most recalcitrant NEETS,
:02:47. > :02:54.neither of whom is in education, employment or training, the Wayne
:02:54. > :02:57.and Waynetta Slob of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:02:57. > :03:07.of Michael Portillo and, currently trending as "Blairite on the left",
:03:07. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:14.Jacqui Smith. Michael, your moment. In this
:03:14. > :03:17.matter of the euro, I have to hand it to the Mayor of London, Boris
:03:17. > :03:22.Johnson, who came up with a good phrase he borrowed from someone
:03:22. > :03:28.else. He said in this matter of the euro, the Europeans are saving the
:03:28. > :03:31.cancer and not saving the patient. And the analogy is right. What is
:03:31. > :03:35.killing Europe is the euro, and what the European leaders are doing
:03:35. > :03:39.is rushing to save the euro, the cancer, while the patient goes on
:03:39. > :03:45.dying. Even the British Government is in favour of saving the cancer
:03:45. > :03:50.rather than the patient. It must be a good phrase if you are praising
:03:50. > :03:57.something Boris Johnson said. You've got it! I will mark that in
:03:57. > :04:03.mind never happened before file. Jacqui. Yesterday was the final
:04:03. > :04:07.episode of the Frozen Planet. What was interesting was David
:04:07. > :04:10.Attenborough, father of the nation, taking the opportunity to remind
:04:10. > :04:14.everybody about the dangers of climate change, suggesting that the
:04:14. > :04:18.Arctic that they have been exploring for the last seven weeks,
:04:18. > :04:22.the ice may be gone by 2020. Stark contrast to the emphasis that has
:04:22. > :04:25.been placed on what is happening in South Africa in Durban at the
:04:25. > :04:30.moment, where the whole issue has very much gone off the political
:04:30. > :04:34.agenda, even from a Prime Minister who told us if we bloated -- voted
:04:34. > :04:38.blue we would get green. We will not be much in that again tonight
:04:38. > :04:41.because it is not on our agenda, so you make a good point.
:04:41. > :04:44.Now, call-me-Dave has today hot- footed it over to Brussels again,
:04:44. > :04:47.back into the warm, familiar, comforting bosom of Angela Merkel.
:04:47. > :04:51.But here at home, euro-sceptic Tory MPs, or illegitimate children as we
:04:51. > :04:54.will soon start calling them, have begged him not to surrender to her
:04:54. > :04:59.fulsome charms, or the eurozone's attempt to form an ever closer
:04:59. > :05:03.union. Whether he manages to resist and show some bulldog spirit,
:05:03. > :05:13.remains to be seen. So we've asked, Conservative journalist and blogger
:05:13. > :05:31.
:05:31. > :05:36.Tim Montgomerie for his take of the Just like me, David Cameron might
:05:36. > :05:41.be getting the Belgian beer in tonight. In Brussels, he will be
:05:41. > :05:45.ordering food. But by Kieran Britain, left behind him, the huge
:05:45. > :05:49.issue of Europe, an unexploded bomb at the heart of the Conservative
:05:50. > :05:59.Party. -- but back here in Britain. It is the issue that will not go
:06:00. > :06:05.
:06:05. > :06:09.away, and that taking is getting Thank you. The majority of the
:06:09. > :06:13.Conservative Party now think it is time to defuse the bomb. The Euro-
:06:13. > :06:18.sceptics are often dismissed as the frothing at the mouth, swivel-eyed,
:06:18. > :06:21.blazers and ties Brigade. But they feel they were vindicated about the
:06:22. > :06:31.euro and that their voice deserves to be heard. They feel David
:06:31. > :06:34.Cameron ignores them at his peril. Some people take a superficial look
:06:34. > :06:38.at opinion polls and say the issue of Europe does not matter. David
:06:38. > :06:43.Cameron cannot be someone who will make that mistake. In 1992 he stood
:06:43. > :06:46.alongside Norman Lamont when Britain crashed out of the exchange
:06:46. > :06:49.rate mechanism and the Conservative Party's reputation for economic
:06:49. > :06:59.competence was ruined for regeneration. He knows that the
:06:59. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:21.The eurozone crisis should be a blaring signal to EU leaders to
:07:21. > :07:26.change course. Thank you. But actually they are doubling down on
:07:26. > :07:30.the same old failed model. Most Tory members do not think economic
:07:30. > :07:38.recovery will start until the European economies to leave the
:07:38. > :07:43.euro straitjacket. Of course, a break-up will be painful but
:07:43. > :07:47.essential surgery always is. In terms of his career, David Cameron
:07:48. > :07:52.will obviously survive this episode. The economic crisis is so grave
:07:52. > :07:56.that not enough Tory MPs will want to rock the boat. But he will be
:07:56. > :08:01.undermined by the fact that at Europe's maximum moment of weakness
:08:01. > :08:08.he gave up all of his cards before he even got to the negotiating
:08:08. > :08:15.table. If he fails to flex his muscles in Brussels, the ticking
:08:15. > :08:25.from that bomb is only going to get louder and louder.
:08:25. > :08:26.
:08:26. > :08:30.Tim Montgomery joins us. Welcome. Michael, he says an unexploded bomb
:08:30. > :08:35.at the heart of the Tory party. Do you agree? Absolutely. It has been
:08:35. > :08:39.lying there for about 40 years. Europe is a curse for the Tory
:08:39. > :08:44.party which threatens to destroy it. Actually, it has already destroyed
:08:44. > :08:48.Ted Heath, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, and there is no reason to
:08:48. > :08:54.think it will not destroy David Cameron. That is absolutely
:08:54. > :08:57.possible. I think the only way in which he can be saved is that this
:08:57. > :09:01.summit is about something even more important than Britain's
:09:01. > :09:05.relationship with Europe. It is about whether the euro survives. My
:09:05. > :09:10.bet is that the euro is not going to survive and that as it crashes
:09:10. > :09:13.we will be rescued from this problem about having to negotiate a
:09:13. > :09:18.new treaty with the Europeans. That is not to say that this problem is
:09:18. > :09:23.not very deep. It is very deep and David Cameron is in a real bind, a
:09:23. > :09:27.real crisis. What would you say to David Cameron if he was here and he
:09:27. > :09:32.said, I am a Euro-sceptic like you and I want to repatriate powers but
:09:32. > :09:35.the crisis at the moment is about the eurozone. If the eurozone goes
:09:35. > :09:40.belly-up it will drag down the British economy into a deep
:09:40. > :09:45.recession, maybe even a depression, so I need to help to sort that out
:09:45. > :09:48.first. If he was doing that, I would applaud him and most
:09:48. > :09:53.conservative members would. I agree with what Michael was saying and
:09:53. > :09:57.what Boris Johnson said earlier this week. The eurozone and its
:09:57. > :10:00.one-size-fits-all interest rate is the problem. The debt, the lack of
:10:00. > :10:04.competitiveness of economies like Greece and Spain within the
:10:04. > :10:08.eurozone. We all know it would be incredibly difficult if the euro
:10:08. > :10:13.breaks up, but as I said in the film, it is like essential surgery,
:10:14. > :10:18.it is painful, but once it is done we can begin to recover. If that is
:10:18. > :10:21.the case and that is what a lot of Conservatives think, Jacqui, it is
:10:21. > :10:24.a difficult line for the Prime Minister to walk as Prime Minister
:10:24. > :10:31.of the country on the one hand and leader of the Conservatives on the
:10:31. > :10:34.other. He has got himself into this situation. Leaving aside what the
:10:34. > :10:37.long-term strategic Right Thing For Europe is, six years ago he won his
:10:37. > :10:41.place as leader of the Conservative Party by a winning over the right
:10:41. > :10:45.by moving away from the Conservative group within Europe.
:10:45. > :10:50.That is the reason why he was not in Marseilles with Merkel and
:10:50. > :10:54.Sarkozy today, or before the summit. And just a few weeks ago, when
:10:54. > :10:58.facing a rebellion, there were nudges and winks, don't rebel
:10:58. > :11:02.because it is OK, we are going to repatriate and there will be a
:11:02. > :11:04.referendum at some point. That makes it very difficult, if you are
:11:04. > :11:07.saying one thing to your backbenchers and you need to do
:11:07. > :11:11.another thing within Europe to achieve your strategic ends, you
:11:11. > :11:16.have brought the problem upon yourself. I agree with that. When
:11:16. > :11:20.he was facing that rebellion of the 81 as it turned out and he was
:11:20. > :11:23.trying to defuse it, he did say, when the opportunity came to
:11:23. > :11:27.renegotiate Britain's relationship with Europe, another treaty, he
:11:28. > :11:32.would take it and look for fundamental reform. And now, of
:11:32. > :11:37.course, the opportunity has come so soon and he is saying it is too
:11:37. > :11:41.difficult. That is part of the reason he has got into this pickle.
:11:41. > :11:44.To be fair to him, all Conservative prime ministers find themselves in
:11:44. > :11:48.this position, even Margaret Thatcher. They have obligations,
:11:48. > :11:52.they are sucked into difficulties in Europe which mean they lose
:11:53. > :11:56.their perspective of what they owe to their party. Margaret Thatcher
:11:56. > :12:01.signed the Single European Act. I think one of the reasons that she
:12:01. > :12:05.became so vehemently anti- European, why she made those great speeches
:12:05. > :12:08.at the end, why she was brought down, was that she deeply regretted
:12:08. > :12:12.signing the Single European Act. Let's not pretend David Cameron is
:12:12. > :12:16.the first Tory Prime Minister to find itself in his position. What
:12:16. > :12:21.is it about the Tories who are now saying that the eurozone itself is
:12:21. > :12:24.a problem and cannot be fixed, cannot be put right, because the
:12:24. > :12:28.British Labour Party does not think that, the British Liberal Democrats
:12:28. > :12:31.do not think it, the French socialists do not think it, the
:12:31. > :12:35.German Social Democrats do not think it, the German Christian
:12:35. > :12:39.Democrats don't think it, the Spanish Christian Democrats don't...
:12:39. > :12:46.How long do I have to go on? What is so different about British
:12:46. > :12:50.Tories? I think it is the British people. One of the things we know
:12:50. > :12:53.is that if there is a referendum, which David Cameron wishes to avoid,
:12:53. > :12:57.whatever the question may be, the answer from the British people will
:12:57. > :13:02.be No. The British people's heart is not in the European project,
:13:02. > :13:07.period. I am not talking about the euro, but the European project. It
:13:07. > :13:10.is to do with being an island, to do with our different experience in
:13:10. > :13:13.World War II, to do with understanding that a club is a
:13:13. > :13:17.thing whose rules do not change, whereas the Europeans are in a
:13:17. > :13:22.process whose rules change all the time. We are fundamentally unsuited
:13:22. > :13:27.to this project, as a people. you agree with that in any way,
:13:27. > :13:32.Jacqui, it is hard for a Labour leader to be seen to be pro Europe
:13:32. > :13:36.and get much traction. Which is why, what you have seen interestingly in
:13:36. > :13:42.recent weeks from Douglas Alexander is a more pragmatic approach to
:13:42. > :13:45.Europe, the argument that some of the things we have used in the past
:13:45. > :13:49.to justify and to try to win support are not sufficient, and we
:13:49. > :13:53.need to develop a new argument, a positive argument for why we need
:13:53. > :13:59.to be engaged in Europe. But nevertheless, not going in a gung-
:13:59. > :14:02.ho way, trying to defend the status quo. It was part of the Blairite
:14:02. > :14:07.project to be pro-Europe, given Michael Foot's attitude and the
:14:07. > :14:11.attitude of the hard left. The ambition was to be the height of
:14:11. > :14:16.maternity at one stage. There are still strong arguments for why we
:14:16. > :14:20.would want to be part of Europe. But it does not make you a
:14:20. > :14:27.moderniser. We do not think of ourselves in those stark ways.
:14:27. > :14:32.There are more fundamental arguments. Tim, you say that
:14:32. > :14:36.Cameron will ignore the sceptics at his peril. What does that mean? How
:14:36. > :14:40.much damage are they prepared to do to him? They have not got an
:14:40. > :14:44.alternative. They have not got taking over the water, unless you
:14:44. > :14:49.count Boris Johnson. That has been David Cameron's advantage for a
:14:49. > :14:55.long time, there is no obvious successor. This is not about a Tory
:14:55. > :14:59.leadership race. So why does he ignore them at his peril? I think
:14:59. > :15:03.the issue goes back to what Jacqui was talking about, what is the
:15:03. > :15:07.moderniser position? The moderniser position is to record -- recognise
:15:07. > :15:12.that the European model is the out of date thing. This economic model
:15:12. > :15:17.that is about big welfare states, lots of regulation, high taxes,
:15:17. > :15:19.agricultural subsidies, protectionism. As long as we
:15:19. > :15:24.changed to that as a country we do not solve our fundamental economic
:15:24. > :15:28.problems. I think Cameron's failure to articulate a big vision for a
:15:28. > :15:32.new Europe is the reason why people are not willing to follow him.
:15:32. > :15:37.me explain something that Euro- sceptics psychology which I think I
:15:37. > :15:41.understand. The British sovereignty issue matters more to Euro-sceptics
:15:41. > :15:45.than the result of the next election, than the fortunes of the
:15:45. > :15:48.Prime Minister, than their own seat. It matters more than anything.
:15:48. > :15:56.is like Ireland to the Liberal Party at the end of the 19th
:15:56. > :16:00.century, or like free trade used to be to the Tories. We would be in
:16:00. > :16:08.the euro if it were not for one person, Gordon Brown, not a member
:16:08. > :16:11.of the Conservative Party. I wonder whether this upsurge of attacks on
:16:11. > :16:15.Cameron because of the euro and the eurozone actually goes deeper than
:16:15. > :16:20.that. There is a big chunk of the Tory party who blame him for not
:16:20. > :16:23.winning an overall majority in the election, they hate him -- they
:16:23. > :16:26.hate the idea, they think he likes the Lib Dems more than his own
:16:26. > :16:31.people, they do not think he manages the party very well and
:16:31. > :16:36.there are host of other reasons, too. There is a Tory class war that
:16:36. > :16:45.could come into it. These are the unspoken parts that add an edge to
:16:45. > :16:49.But I think I do agree. Tim is better placed to answer that.
:16:49. > :16:53.Nonetheless, all those things added together do not matter a jot
:16:53. > :16:58.compared with the European question. It burns so deeply in people's
:16:58. > :17:05.souls. It is getting pretty nasty when the Conservative Prime
:17:05. > :17:08.Minister is now compared by his own side to Neville Chamberlain. I am a
:17:08. > :17:12.deep Euro-sceptic, and it would be great if we could talk about Europe
:17:12. > :17:16.and Germany without resorting to World War II imagery. Germany is a
:17:16. > :17:22.great modern country now. They may not have the right answers on
:17:23. > :17:27.Europe, but can we get rid of that? Do you agree with the proposition I
:17:27. > :17:31.made that it goes deeper than Europe? Absolutely. It is something
:17:31. > :17:36.I have written in this week's spectator. It is about losing the
:17:36. > :17:40.election and not using the crisis we have to reform the tax system,
:17:40. > :17:45.and it is about a once in a generation opportunity to change
:17:45. > :17:54.our relationship with Europe, and not taking it.
:17:55. > :17:58.Now, it is late. Babestation late, if you know what I mean. But don't
:17:58. > :18:01.change the channel yet, because coming up, comedienne and actress
:18:01. > :18:07.Andi Osho will be telling us why not everyone in east London is
:18:07. > :18:13.looking forward to the coxless fours in 2012. The those of you who
:18:13. > :18:17.claim to never watch the show, remember, you can post your
:18:17. > :18:20.comments on our into Web page or follow us on the Facebook or
:18:20. > :18:24.Twooter. With Christmas approaching, our
:18:24. > :18:31.thoughts naturally turn to where we will also spend Christmas Day
:18:31. > :18:35.together. Michael's house is to posh. Jacqui Smith's bedroom is too
:18:35. > :18:40.small and could not be regarded as a principal residence. So we will
:18:40. > :18:45.probably do what we always do and go to die and's house, where the
:18:45. > :18:55.only Christmas spirit is Caribbean rum. Here is a Dickens inspired
:18:55. > :19:09.
:19:09. > :19:13.Christmas round-up of the political Christmas is coming, and the keys
:19:14. > :19:17.and a few bankers are getting fat. Elsewhere, it is thin gruel. The
:19:17. > :19:21.Eurozone and economy are up the spout and the gap between the haves
:19:21. > :19:26.and have-nots is getting wider. It is a kind of scenario that will
:19:26. > :19:29.have motivated Charles Dickens. The author of A Christmas Carol would
:19:29. > :19:33.have understood the idea of an austerity Christmas. Even David
:19:33. > :19:38.Cameron, asked about his mutual friends, said that this year, he
:19:38. > :19:41.would be making it a quiet one. the Prime Minister tell us if he
:19:41. > :19:50.will be having his usual Christmas bash with Rebekah Brooks and Jeremy
:19:50. > :19:57.Clarkson? If so, will they be talking about just how out of touch
:19:57. > :20:06.they are with British public opinion? I seem to remember the
:20:06. > :20:16.annual sleepover was with the former Labour prime minister. I
:20:16. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:21.will be having a quiet family Christmas.
:20:21. > :20:25.It is not quite back to the Dickensian workhouse or the
:20:25. > :20:30.betters' prison where Mr de it languished, but there are over 2.5
:20:30. > :20:34.million unemployed, and the work programme, the government's
:20:34. > :20:38.equivalent of the Poor Laws, is grinding slowly. The Labour's Ed
:20:38. > :20:43.Balls, it was a sign that hard times would be made worse by the
:20:43. > :20:48.coalition Scrooges. With growth undershooting expectations in
:20:48. > :20:55.October, with borrowing set to be higher than he planned, with even
:20:55. > :21:00.the IMF calling for a change of course, why is the Chancellor
:21:00. > :21:05.ploughing on? There is not one single credible mainstream party in
:21:05. > :21:10.Europe that is advocating the position he advocates. We have done
:21:10. > :21:15.research and come across the workers' struggle party in France,
:21:15. > :21:23.and the Communist parties of Spain, Switzerland, Finland, Romania and
:21:23. > :21:26.Moldova. Those are his new fellow- travellers. If he had his Communist
:21:26. > :21:34.manifesto, it would be workers of the Labour Party, unite. We have
:21:34. > :21:38.nothing to lose except our Shadow Chancellor. But the real ghosts
:21:38. > :21:42.stalking the feast our European ones. David Cameron created greater
:21:42. > :21:46.expectations of repatriating powers from the EU to Britain, and a lot
:21:46. > :21:49.of his backbenchers will not let him forget that. The new closeness
:21:49. > :21:54.of the fiscal union between France and Germany is also worrying to
:21:54. > :21:59.Britain. And there is another ghost of Tory leaders past swinging her
:21:59. > :22:04.handbag. Six weeks ago, he was promising his backbenchers a hand
:22:04. > :22:11.bagging for Europe. Now he is just reduced to hand-wringing. That is
:22:11. > :22:17.the reality of this Prime Minister. The problem for Britain is that at
:22:17. > :22:20.the most important European summit for a generation, that matters
:22:20. > :22:25.hugely for families and businesses in the country, the Prime Minister
:22:25. > :22:31.rose simply left on the sidelines. Even the best of joke on handbags
:22:31. > :22:35.will not save his leadership. course, as well as being an author,
:22:35. > :22:39.dickens was a journalist. So what would the great chronicler of human
:22:39. > :22:43.absurdity have made of the latest inquiries into the hacking scandal?
:22:43. > :22:49.Parliament heard from four gentlemen who do seem to lead
:22:49. > :22:55.active lives. There is arguing, and when that fails, there is violence,
:22:56. > :23:00.which I have tried. I have been arrested twice and had my car
:23:00. > :23:05.Stanley knife Dover every surface in retribution. Poor Hugh, it is so
:23:05. > :23:09.hard being famous, and even harder if like Max Mosley, you think it
:23:09. > :23:13.takes more than two to tango. Breach of privacy can never be put
:23:13. > :23:19.right. In my case, the News Of The World had been forced to print on
:23:19. > :23:25.their front page "this was actually a private Georgi". That would not
:23:25. > :23:28.have helped me much. No, it wouldn't. But you could go for a
:23:28. > :23:33.striking metaphor, though perhaps not the one that Zac Goldsmith
:23:33. > :23:36.chose. If the only way business can stay afloat is by engaging in a
:23:36. > :23:39.more unethical behaviour, but business should change its model or
:23:39. > :23:45.go out of business. No police said Auschwitz should have been kept
:23:45. > :23:48.open because it created jobs. Dickens would have recognised the
:23:48. > :23:55.anger and frustration being played out on the streets of Moscow this
:23:56. > :24:00.week. Vladimir Putin stands accused of rigging the elections. When I
:24:00. > :24:04.covered Russia in the early '90s, there were still hopes of an open
:24:04. > :24:09.society and a real democracy. Mr Putin has decided not to bother
:24:09. > :24:13.with that. Russia, with this government and these leaders and
:24:13. > :24:17.these cheats and thieves, has no future. It is not as if all is
:24:17. > :24:21.quiet on the Western Front. This week, a new report showed that a
:24:21. > :24:25.lot of people blame the police for the summer riots. As Fagin might
:24:25. > :24:29.have put it, it is a shame when it was as getting the way of an honest
:24:29. > :24:33.bit of looting. The shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper said her
:24:33. > :24:36.party would hold its own investigation under Lord Stevens,
:24:36. > :24:46.the former Met chief, who was worried about disorder breaking out
:24:46. > :24:51.
:24:51. > :24:57.again on the streets, a bit like this, perhaps. Can you move away?
:24:57. > :25:00.Look, will you move away? Oh, no! It is Ed Balls again. Well, here is
:25:00. > :25:03.looking forward to an austerity Christmas with none of the
:25:03. > :25:12.trimmings and a very small turkey for a nation of cracked its. God
:25:12. > :25:19.bless us, everyone. Is that it? ho ho, Merry Christmas to one and
:25:19. > :25:23.all. The Economist's and McElvoy in the
:25:23. > :25:27.Museum of London. We have done the Tories in Europe,
:25:27. > :25:33.now Europe. Is Sarkozy right when he says "never has the risk of the
:25:33. > :25:37.euro exploding been so great"? That's right, it is more than it
:25:37. > :25:42.was yesterday and that was more than the day before. But it is a
:25:42. > :25:46.high chance. Getting away from the British problem with the summit, I
:25:46. > :25:50.do not think there is any chance of this summit serving up something
:25:50. > :25:54.which will convince markets. If we go back to the point Tim
:25:54. > :25:57.Montgomerie and I have made, it There is a pretence now by the
:25:57. > :26:03.Germans that this is created by profligate countries like Spain and
:26:03. > :26:07.Italy. Actually, there deficit positions are better than Britain's
:26:07. > :26:11.it is created by the impossibility of these countries to prosper when
:26:11. > :26:15.they have an exchange rate which is effectively determined by how well
:26:15. > :26:21.the German economy does. There's nothing you can do with political
:26:21. > :26:24.arrangements or even with bags of German money to solve that.
:26:24. > :26:29.wonder why they are bothering and why they don't just go to dinner
:26:29. > :26:32.and enjoy themselves. Brussels has some nice restaurants. As I
:26:33. > :26:37.understood it, the purpose of trying to get a fiscal union off
:26:37. > :26:41.the ground, the ECB would then come in and become a lender of last
:26:41. > :26:45.resort and start to spread money around and buy Italian bonds that
:26:46. > :26:54.nobody wants. But the head of the ECB said this afternoon, I am not
:26:54. > :27:00.doing that. That's right, the deal was, the 17 of us have managed to
:27:00. > :27:06.come to an agreement on a closer fiscal union. And therefore, the
:27:06. > :27:12.monetary element from the ECB is put into place. But you are right.
:27:12. > :27:18.This afternoon, despite interest rates going down, he seems to have
:27:18. > :27:22.backed off or refuse to accept the requirements to ensure that that
:27:22. > :27:29.sort of borrowing is available and that the Europe-wide ECB approach
:27:29. > :27:34.is available. That is the reason why, the most recent thing I saw in
:27:34. > :27:37.terms of what was happening in Brussels was, it did not look
:27:37. > :27:43.likely that there would be any agreement either by 17 or 27
:27:43. > :27:46.nations. The Germans it said no to a bigger bail-out fund. My moment
:27:46. > :27:53.of the week might have been the threat by Standard & Poor's, the
:27:53. > :27:57.credit rating agency, to downgrade Germany. There is a 50% chance of
:27:57. > :28:00.them downgrading Germany below triple-A status. That says that the
:28:00. > :28:04.markets realise that even Germany does not have the money to rescue
:28:05. > :28:07.this thing. In the process, Germany will go from being the most
:28:07. > :28:11.creditworthy country to being less creditworthy because it is bearing
:28:12. > :28:18.the debts of other countries. is some suggestion of difficulties
:28:18. > :28:23.in German banks as well. That might be why the ECB had to step in last
:28:23. > :28:27.week. We do not cover these things in the media very well. We are more
:28:27. > :28:32.into the stock markets and so on, but in the past six months, it has
:28:32. > :28:37.become twice as expensive as it was to insure German debt. That is the
:28:37. > :28:42.market saying it is even whisky to hold German debt. You don't think
:28:42. > :28:48.that the 17th, or even the core of the 17, could do some deal to keep
:28:48. > :28:51.the show on the road? They seem to be aiming at some kind of eye and
:28:51. > :28:55.fiscal discipline which would make sure people do not run deficits and
:28:55. > :29:00.they will be punished by having their boats taken away within the
:29:00. > :29:05.Eurozone if they make a mess of their fiscal position. But the
:29:05. > :29:11.deficits are not the crux of the problem. Spain has a better deficit
:29:11. > :29:16.than we do. But it is paying 7% to borrow money. And we are paying 2%.
:29:16. > :29:22.The difference is that we are free to devalue and change our interest
:29:22. > :29:27.rates. We are free to print money. The Spanish, Italians and the Irish
:29:27. > :29:33.and so on are not free to do those things. Why? Because they are in
:29:33. > :29:37.the euro. Jacqui Smith, I wonder if sooner rather than later, we will
:29:37. > :29:42.need to have a referendum on this subject. Let's get it resolved one
:29:42. > :29:46.way or the other. Let's get Britain to make up its mind. Are we part of
:29:46. > :29:51.the European project, and if we are, let's be wholehearted. And if we
:29:51. > :29:55.are not, let's get out? There is a short term and a long-term issue
:29:55. > :30:02.here. There is what is or is not possible to be done over this
:30:02. > :30:08.weekend in order to either safe but or in my view maintain the euro,
:30:08. > :30:12.and there is a long-term question about articulating, whether it is
:30:12. > :30:16.David Cameron or the Labour opposition, articulating our view
:30:16. > :30:19.of the significance of the European Union now. It seems to me that it
:30:19. > :30:24.has to be based firstly on the benefits that come from being able
:30:24. > :30:29.to trade with 500 million people rather than a 60 million, and it
:30:29. > :30:35.comes at a point when we should be more worried about Beijing than
:30:35. > :30:40.being in a large negotiating group. But wouldn't it be worth having the
:30:40. > :30:45.debate and then the vote, for people like you to put your case
:30:45. > :30:55.and others to put theirs, and let's get it out of our system? In a way,
:30:55. > :31:00.For some of the reasons Michael was talking about earlier, I am not
:31:00. > :31:06.even convinced that if we had a referendum it would get it out of
:31:06. > :31:10.people's system. We had won over proportional representation and it
:31:11. > :31:16.kill that for the foreseeable future. This is a more fundamental
:31:16. > :31:23.issue. Let me come to this report on the summer of riots, where a lot
:31:23. > :31:27.of the rioters, surprise, surprise, blamed the police. There was a
:31:27. > :31:34.lovely bit on that comedy website where it said, police caused riots,
:31:34. > :31:36.when they eventually turned up. It is hard not to react like that.
:31:36. > :31:40.Harriet Harman did an interesting piece in the Guardian when she said
:31:40. > :31:44.she had done research in her constituency where she found that
:31:44. > :31:49.the people who did not riot disliked the police as much as the
:31:49. > :31:53.people who did riot. So there is an issue about the police and their
:31:53. > :31:57.engagement with communities, and particularly the way in which they
:31:57. > :32:02.go about stopping and searching people. But it is preposterous, in
:32:02. > :32:05.my view, to use as an excuse the fact of the way in which the police
:32:05. > :32:10.behave towards you to justify what happened in the riots. There might
:32:10. > :32:14.be a small element at the beginning that related to people's concern in
:32:14. > :32:18.Tottenham, that particular issue. But I do not believe that as it
:32:18. > :32:23.carried on that that was the cause. The one thing that the report has
:32:23. > :32:27.done is to get us talking about the riots again. That was quite a
:32:27. > :32:32.seminal moment in our country's history - shocking, appalling, and
:32:32. > :32:37.a key breaking out in major city centres. It seemed it would be a
:32:37. > :32:42.watershed. Politicians would do something, would have new attitudes.
:32:42. > :32:46.-- there was anarchy breaking out in major city centres. I think it
:32:46. > :32:49.is partly because of what we understand as the causes. We do not
:32:49. > :32:53.think this was caused by the economic downturn. We do not think
:32:53. > :32:57.it was caused by a huge social undercurrents. We think it was
:32:57. > :33:03.caused mainly by a few greedy people who were very opportunistic
:33:03. > :33:07.and turned to lawlessness. So if it is not a deep reason, it does not
:33:07. > :33:10.need a deep response, is your argument. I think if the policing
:33:10. > :33:13.response had been more appropriate, most of that would not have
:33:13. > :33:18.happened. I think the question is whether the police response next
:33:18. > :33:22.time will be better. As a former Home Secretary, you have the final
:33:22. > :33:27.word. It is wrong that the commission that has been set up is
:33:27. > :33:29.about the riots. It is more than that. It is about how we police in
:33:29. > :33:34.a time of austerity, the restructuring that is going on and
:33:34. > :33:40.how we hold the police to account. It is a -- it is a good piece of
:33:40. > :33:43.work, I think. Now, at This Week we pride ourselves on knowing the
:33:43. > :33:45.price of everything and the value of nothing. So when Defence
:33:45. > :33:48.Secretary Philip Hammond today announced that our military
:33:48. > :33:51.pyrotechnics in Libya cost the taxpayer �67 million we thought
:33:51. > :33:54.that sounded like a bargain. Because only two days previously,
:33:54. > :33:57.the Prime Minister signed off an extra �41 million for the 2012
:33:57. > :34:02.Olympics fireworks display, instantly doubling the costs to �81
:34:02. > :34:06.million! We could have bombed Syria for six months with that kind of
:34:06. > :34:16.money. So we asked comedian, actress, and east London resident,
:34:16. > :34:25.
:34:25. > :34:29.Andi Osho, to put the cost of the Austerity Britain does not mean
:34:29. > :34:34.much when it comes to the Olympics. This week, David Cameron signed off
:34:34. > :34:37.an extra �41 million on the opening and closing ceremonies, doubling
:34:38. > :34:41.the costs. And the number of security guards has been
:34:41. > :34:45.underestimated, again doubling the costs. The Government spending
:34:45. > :34:54.watchdog has said there is a real risk that the �9.3 billion budget
:34:54. > :34:57.will not be enough. As someone who has lived in Newham pretty much my
:34:57. > :35:00.whole life, it has left me wondering how exactly is the
:35:00. > :35:04.Olympics going to benefit the poorest people living in the shadow
:35:04. > :35:12.of the stadium, and what is the legacy that will be left behind to
:35:12. > :35:16.benefit the community? While nearly �10 billion is being ploughed into
:35:16. > :35:22.this place, local sports facilities are being closed. I wrote to the
:35:22. > :35:26.local council, to Boris Johnson and Lord Sebastian Coe about it. Lord
:35:26. > :35:30.Coe told me it was simply outside of his control. I find that very
:35:30. > :35:33.difficult to believe. Being a local resident, we were told we would get
:35:33. > :35:39.preferential allocation when it came to tickets. This simply did
:35:40. > :35:45.not happen. I did not get any and I do not know any locals who did.
:35:45. > :35:49.This is really galling. The idea that the Olympic Games is an event
:35:49. > :35:54.for the people is a nice ideal. But you have to remember that the IOC
:35:54. > :35:59.is a private entity. The Olympic Games, a global circus there may
:35:59. > :36:04.well pass the people of East London by. And whilst the prospect of the
:36:04. > :36:14.2012 Games is an exciting one, for me, unlike a this Brownie, it has
:36:14. > :36:18.
:36:18. > :36:24.So, Andi comes from that cafe in London to our little cafe here in
:36:24. > :36:29.Westminster. Welcome. Thank you. Let me ask U2 first, are you
:36:29. > :36:37.broadly enthusiastic or supportive of the Olympics, Michael? Broadly,
:36:37. > :36:43.know. Absolutely, yes. Do you have to do that? Is this a double act
:36:43. > :36:48.you have worked out? We just tossed a coin. Next week you will be like,
:36:48. > :36:52.I hate the Olympics. Tune in next weekend you will see that. Some
:36:52. > :36:56.might say you were guilty of seeing the glass half full, that we will
:36:56. > :37:00.get new sports facilities in the area, eventually open to the public,
:37:00. > :37:04.there is a new shopping centre, there will be social housing.
:37:04. > :37:08.Indeed, it is part of a process in which the whole city is being
:37:08. > :37:14.dragged East. It cannot go any more West, and that will reinvigorate
:37:14. > :37:19.the East End. Yes. I don't know about glass half full or half empty,
:37:19. > :37:23.but it would be nice to even have a glass at the moment. It is pretty
:37:23. > :37:28.empty at the moment. I guess as a local resident, I want to feel a
:37:28. > :37:31.sense of exactly what the legacy is going to be. Because it seems like
:37:31. > :37:36.the bar is getting lower and lower in terms of what they are promising.
:37:36. > :37:42.You think that the promises are getting less and less. As the
:37:42. > :37:46.budget goes up, the promises are going down. Maybe more doable. In
:37:47. > :37:50.terms of social housing and things like that, also a local sports
:37:50. > :37:54.facilities. There is a leisure centre near where I live that the
:37:54. > :37:58.council are going to close, while �10 million is being spent up the
:37:59. > :38:04.road on an Olympic site that we cannot use until 2014. And then the
:38:04. > :38:08.ticket thing. Do not start me on the ticket thing. No, let me start
:38:08. > :38:13.you. Well, I think there is something a little bit dodgy about
:38:13. > :38:18.the fact that we have this unholy union with Visa, which means people
:38:18. > :38:21.with Mastercard can go for tickets. People are spending �30,000 and
:38:21. > :38:28.getting loads of tickets. And they told us we would get preferential
:38:28. > :38:33.treatment. Have you got any tickets? I have. That is probably
:38:33. > :38:37.because you do not live in Newham. Second time round, I was there at
:38:37. > :38:43.6am and I got tickets for the hockey and the table tennis. One of
:38:43. > :38:47.the reasons I got them, which is one of the reasons I am so
:38:47. > :38:51.enthusiastic... She paid cash! dad and my mother-in-law went to
:38:51. > :38:56.the Olympics in London last time it was here and I am taking them next
:38:56. > :38:59.summer again. It is that national pride and the sense of something
:38:59. > :39:04.that may have remembered ever since they went up that I think we need.
:39:04. > :39:08.Why did you have to get up so early to get tickets a table tennis?
:39:08. > :39:14.missed out the first time round. You have a second chance. Boris
:39:14. > :39:20.Johnson has another name for it. I am sure you have got no tickets,
:39:20. > :39:24.Michael. No, but that is because I did not apply. I cannot complain.
:39:24. > :39:30.I'm told that if you do not apply, you do not get tickets. It is very
:39:30. > :39:32.difficult if you do not apply. take the point about some things
:39:32. > :39:35.closing and in these huge investments, you always wonder, if
:39:35. > :39:43.we can afford this, why can't we save the little thing round the
:39:43. > :39:48.corner. But it does mean more investment in the East End. And
:39:48. > :39:53.surely there will be a ripple effect. I came to London in 1971,
:39:53. > :39:57.and the difference from the East End... The Isle of Dogs, it was
:39:57. > :40:02.derelict. The difference now is astronomical. And this will
:40:02. > :40:06.continue the process. Definitely. There is a massive change that has
:40:07. > :40:10.happened in the East End. But I am not sure exactly how it affects the
:40:10. > :40:14.people that live there who are already there. Is it about bringing
:40:14. > :40:19.wealth into the area, or about raising the standard of living for
:40:19. > :40:23.the people already there? Despite the fact that you have Canary Wharf,
:40:23. > :40:27.the east London boroughs are still some of the most deprived areas in
:40:27. > :40:35.the country. We hear a lot about the North-South divide, but some of
:40:35. > :40:39.the poorest parts of Britain are in East London. �9.3 billion, as we
:40:39. > :40:45.begin the last decade. All of it concentrated on one small part of
:40:45. > :40:49.Britain, and doubts about what the real impact will be. Is this really
:40:49. > :40:53.money well spent? I have told you what I think one of the benefits is,
:40:53. > :40:59.the sense of national pride. There were two other reasons we went for
:40:59. > :41:05.the Olympics. I am quite proud without spending 9.3 billion.
:41:05. > :41:10.would be proud if we spend it on regenerating the area. But that was
:41:10. > :41:14.one of the other reasons for getting the Olympics. In six years,
:41:14. > :41:18.there has been the regeneration that would have taken 60 years.
:41:18. > :41:22.Where I have sympathy is that the other reason, of course, was to
:41:22. > :41:26.develop sport among young people, to leave the real legacy of kids
:41:26. > :41:30.feeling inspired by the Olympics. Given some of the decisions this
:41:30. > :41:33.Government has taken, removing some of the support available to schools
:41:33. > :41:36.for sport, some of the things you were talking about with local
:41:36. > :41:41.leisure centres, I am not convinced that will be delivered and that
:41:41. > :41:45.will be a real shame. I wonder about the sports legacy. Some of
:41:45. > :41:51.the money they paid for it came from the lottery, which was already
:41:51. > :41:56.funding sports facility -- facilities. It was getting straight
:41:56. > :42:00.to local level. And also this thing of local facilities closing and the
:42:00. > :42:05.Olympics being there, and we are told that local people are going to
:42:05. > :42:10.be able to use the Olympic facilities, but not until 2014. In
:42:11. > :42:16.the meantime, what? We are allowed to use Wimbledon, are we? And
:42:16. > :42:19.Wembley? I would not count on that. I wonder, on the night, when it
:42:19. > :42:24.begins and the eyes of the world will be not just on London but on
:42:24. > :42:31.your part of London, there won't be a little bit of pride going through
:42:31. > :42:34.the veins? Definitely. I am really happy we won the Olympic bid. I was
:42:34. > :42:38.there in Trafalgar Square and I am glad we got this event. However,
:42:38. > :42:42.huge promises were made about a legacy and I just want those
:42:42. > :42:46.promises to be kept. I think that is fair enough. Thank you for being
:42:46. > :42:49.with us. That's your lot for tonight folks.
:42:49. > :42:53.It's our Christmas show next week and we'll be joined by a special
:42:53. > :42:57.guest, actor David Morrissey. Oh, and Diane will be back, but you
:42:57. > :43:01.can't have everything, I suppose. We leave you with news that the
:43:01. > :43:03.music for the 2012 opening ceremony will be overseen by the techno rave
:43:03. > :43:06.outfit Underworld, who famously provided the soundtrack to