:00:10. > :00:13.Tonight, This Week heads north for Monarch of the Political Glen.
:00:13. > :00:15.MUSIC As the battle for Scottish independence commences and
:00:15. > :00:17.Edinburgh Emperor, Alex Salmon, locks antlers with England's
:00:17. > :00:19.Monarch of Downing Street, David Cameron, we're joined by
:00:19. > :00:29.broadcaster, Hardeep Singh Kohli, who swears he's wearing nothing
:00:29. > :00:34.
:00:34. > :00:37.under his tartan turban. Well, it may not be tartan, but my heart
:00:37. > :00:42.most certainly is. If David Cameron thinks he can interfere with the
:00:42. > :00:44.settled will of the Scottish people, well, he's got another think coming.
:00:45. > :00:50.Back in Westminster, Labour Leader, Ed Miliband, is fighting for
:00:50. > :00:55.credibility. Can the Labour leader battle it out against his critics?
:00:55. > :01:00.The Guardian's Nick Watt says it's time for him to get into shape.
:01:00. > :01:04.Fighting for his survival, south of the bofrder, Ed Miliband is
:01:04. > :01:08.struggling to -- border, Ed Miliband is struggling to inspire
:01:08. > :01:10.the troops. And as High Speed Rail gets the green light does the
:01:10. > :01:19.romance of the railways live on? The former, laird of Newsnight,
:01:19. > :01:25.Peter Snow, plays with his train set. There would only be one winner
:01:25. > :01:28.between the swingometer and my model railway. They may take our
:01:28. > :01:32.lives, but they will never take.our This Week. Evening all and welcome
:01:32. > :01:34.back after our three-week lay-off to the wonderful world of This Week.
:01:34. > :01:38.So, what have we missed? Which political nobodies used the
:01:38. > :01:40.seasonal quiet to force their way onto the festive front pages? Well,
:01:40. > :01:46.there's nothing quite like a previously unknown Tory MP
:01:46. > :01:50.attending a nazi-themed stag party to brighten up the winter gloom.
:01:50. > :01:53.Aiden Burley MP sir, we salute you. But probably not in the way you're
:01:53. > :01:56.used to - obviously. Then there's Ed Miliband's intellectual guru,
:01:56. > :01:59.obscure academic and Labour truth- teller, Lord Glasman, who claimed
:01:59. > :02:05.over Christmas that there was no strategy, no narrative and little
:02:05. > :02:09.energy radiating from the Labour leadership. With friends like these,
:02:09. > :02:12.Ed, who needs John Humphreys? But our award for rudely stealing the
:02:12. > :02:17.limelight from little baby Jesus must surely go to someone who
:02:17. > :02:20.Michael and I have been very busy claiming not to know. Not content
:02:20. > :02:22.with basking in the glare of publicity on Labour's crack public
:02:23. > :02:25.health team, Diane Abbott spiced up all our holidays by claiming
:02:26. > :02:35."'white people love to divide and rule", and don't think we didn't
:02:36. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:41.take it personally. As if sowing discord on the This Week sofa
:02:41. > :02:43.wasn't enough, she went on to offend London's black cab drivers
:02:43. > :02:46.by claiming they were averse to picking up black customers. Talk
:02:46. > :02:51.about a self-fulfilling prophesy Diane. It's the number 38 bus for
:02:51. > :02:54.you from now on. Thank god she wasn't photographed on a nazi-
:02:54. > :02:57.themed hen party or Ed Miliband really would've had to sack her.
:02:57. > :03:01.Speaking of those who don't know where the line is until they
:03:01. > :03:03.overstep it, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by the risky business and
:03:03. > :03:06.frisky business of late-night political chat - I speak, of course,
:03:06. > :03:16.of Michael Portillo, and the original #manontheleft, Alan AJ
:03:16. > :03:18.
:03:18. > :03:21.Johnson. Michael, your moment of the week? A personal are experience.
:03:22. > :03:25.Yesterday, I watched an organisation called Medecins Sans
:03:25. > :03:29.Frontieres, which is one of the organisations that goes to
:03:29. > :03:33.developing countries and hands out food aid and helps with medicines
:03:33. > :03:39.and I saw them doing their work and they were handing out food parcels
:03:39. > :03:46.and providing free medical care to people, but the point was that this
:03:46. > :03:52.was in Athens. It was free food and medical care to people in Athens.
:03:52. > :03:57.That bad? The situation is pretty bad in Athens. More austerity to
:03:57. > :04:00.come too. I know British people say the Greeks brought it upon
:04:00. > :04:03.themselves, but some Greeks, the poorer people in Greece, are
:04:03. > :04:08.suffering terribly and they only get unemployment benefit normally
:04:08. > :04:10.for a year and then it runs out. If they haven't got insurance, they
:04:11. > :04:15.don't have access to the Health Service. In any case, that
:04:15. > :04:20.vaccinations are not paid for in Greece. There is real poverty and
:04:20. > :04:25.problems. I missed that. That is a moment. Alan, your moment?
:04:25. > :04:27.extraordinary events in the Lords last night. The Lords inflicted
:04:27. > :04:31.three very significant defeats on the Government over the welfare
:04:31. > :04:35.bill. All of which I support. One of which was about Young Sports
:04:35. > :04:41.Personality of the Yearsters who are disabled from birth being
:04:41. > :04:44.assumed to have made national insurance contributions so they can
:04:44. > :04:48.access contributory incapacity benefits. The Government incredibly
:04:48. > :04:51.were looking to take that away. These are kids who couldn't
:04:51. > :04:56.possibly work and so they were defeated. The Lords vote late at
:04:56. > :05:01.night and they vote and go home and inflict the defeats. In the Lords'
:05:01. > :05:06.chamber after, while they are doing all the washing up, the minister,
:05:06. > :05:13.Lord Freud, tries to movement an amendment that actually reversed
:05:13. > :05:18.that decision. He was spotted. It was spotted by Baroness Hollis who
:05:18. > :05:24.was still there, but the amendment overturning the decision of the
:05:24. > :05:29.Lords was carried, officially. When it was pointed out to him, he said,
:05:29. > :05:32.I think you are right, I shouldn't have done that, but we are left in
:05:32. > :05:38.the problem where the Lords voted one way, this motion went the other
:05:38. > :05:44.way and there is a mess there. Well done the Lords. Well done Patricia.
:05:44. > :05:49.I want to talk about where the Government goes from here, but that
:05:49. > :05:56.in the Lords. Who would have thought it? It's been a week in
:05:56. > :06:06.Scottish politics and in UK politics, with Prime Minister Call
:06:06. > :06:06.
:06:06. > :06:11.Me Dave calling for a referendum. In the end, Wee Eck was forced to
:06:11. > :06:17.name 2014 for the day. Westminster wants one sooner rather than later,
:06:17. > :06:27.so tension remains high. We turned to broadcaster Hardeep Singh Kohli
:06:27. > :06:34.
:06:34. > :06:44.for his take on the case for Scottish independence. I'll have a
:06:44. > :06:45.
:06:45. > :06:49.glass of the Macallan. A double, please! There's nothing quite as
:06:49. > :06:55.Scottish as a man in a Turk an enjoying a dram of whiskey. For
:06:55. > :06:58.those of you who don't know, I'm a -- I'm as Scottish as the next jock.
:06:58. > :07:02.I was raised and educated in Scotland, but the Scotland I left
:07:02. > :07:06.20 years ago is very different from today. There are increased calls
:07:06. > :07:09.for independence and here's the truth - I'm part of the braveheart
:07:09. > :07:13.brain drain. I left Scotland for London, because that's where all
:07:13. > :07:23.the work was. But if Scotland did get independence, well, I would be
:07:23. > :07:26.
:07:26. > :07:30.back there quicker than you could say, "Help ma bobe." Westminster
:07:30. > :07:33.were naive to think a Scottish Parliament would dampen the hopes.
:07:33. > :07:37.Devolution wasn't about creating a nation, it was about restoring a
:07:37. > :07:40.nation. Let's face it, the political system in Scotland was
:07:40. > :07:46.set up so as never to have a majority administration. It was
:07:46. > :07:50.only a matter of time before people wanted more. That time is now. We
:07:50. > :07:54.are in unchartered territory. The arrogance of the Westminster
:07:54. > :08:04.Government to think it can tell us when we can or can't have a
:08:04. > :08:06.
:08:06. > :08:09.referendum. Can I have the roast haggis with mash and bashed neeps
:08:09. > :08:15.and I'll problemly need another whiskey. Just bring the bottle over.
:08:15. > :08:18.Thank you very much. The problem for Westminster is Alex Salmond has
:08:18. > :08:22.led Scotland impeccably. He's a match for anyone south of the
:08:22. > :08:25.border. He's the leader we have been waiting for. Actually, the
:08:25. > :08:29.result of the referendum isn't important. What is important is
:08:29. > :08:39.that the Scots have a referendum and they decide on the question and
:08:39. > :08:43.
:08:43. > :08:47.they decide on the timing. All the while, David and his cronies are
:08:47. > :08:52.trying to wrestle back control. Why would they care? They've got next
:08:52. > :08:57.to no MPs there. We all know Westminster has used Scotland as a
:08:57. > :09:04.political laboratory. Well, this referendum is Scotland's own
:09:04. > :09:09.political experiment. I could leave you with a quote from Burns,
:09:09. > :09:19."Bought and sold for English gold." Or I could highlight the fact that
:09:19. > :09:28.
:09:28. > :09:31.there are twice as many pandas in Scotland as Tory MPs. Think on.
:09:31. > :09:39.Welcome to the programme. If independence is the answer, what
:09:39. > :09:43.was the question? 42. I don't know. I suppose the question is 42 is a
:09:43. > :09:49.question. I was trying to be smart. I should have learnt my lesson the
:09:49. > :09:54.last time I was on. The question is how best to govern Scotland.
:09:54. > :09:57.Whether it is best done through devolution, through devolution max
:09:57. > :10:01.or independence or the way that David Cameron is going t wouldn't
:10:01. > :10:05.surprise me if tomorrow he was reStrategic Rail Authoritying all
:10:05. > :10:09.the powers for independence and that was from devolution. You know
:10:09. > :10:19.he won't do that. Why would independence make Scotland a better
:10:19. > :10:20.
:10:20. > :10:25.place? I think it would enable Scotland to be responsible for its
:10:25. > :10:29.own future. I'm fed up of Scotland blaming England for all its ills. I
:10:29. > :10:32.think increasingly if you look for example at the health issues in
:10:32. > :10:35.Scotland. They are markedly different from Scotland. Scotland
:10:35. > :10:41.controls its own health and the Scottish Parliament has complete
:10:41. > :10:44.control over health policy in Scotland. Why don't they allow
:10:44. > :10:48.Holyrood to al-- raise taxes to have some self-determination for
:10:48. > :10:51.the people. Scotland is a separate nation. It has been historically.
:10:51. > :10:56.You said you would go back if it was independent. Why wouldn't you
:10:56. > :11:00.go back now? If you love Scotland so much? I spend a lot of time
:11:00. > :11:04.there. I was due to be there today. I stayed to make the film. It is
:11:04. > :11:13.very difficult to say no to you. The heart of the enemy. I love the
:11:13. > :11:17.English. Some of my best friends are English. I worry more about
:11:17. > :11:21.England in the break-up of the union than I do about Scotland. Or
:11:21. > :11:26.Wales. I would let the English worry about themselves. They are
:11:26. > :11:33.big enough. Was David Cameron right to make this initiative this week?
:11:33. > :11:37.No. You don't think he was? It is cack-handed. I don't think he has
:11:37. > :11:42.focused on the Scottish question. There was a case for doing
:11:42. > :11:46.something that he did now before Alex Salmond was elected with a
:11:46. > :11:51.majority. But there isn't a case now. I thought what David Cameron
:11:51. > :11:55.might do after the landslide was to try to put Alex Salmond in an
:11:55. > :12:00.awkward position by saying, "I'm interested, but what we have to do
:12:00. > :12:03.now is get rid of the Barnet formula and settle how we will
:12:03. > :12:07.divide North Sea Oil between England and Scotland and allow you
:12:07. > :12:13.to raise your own taxes, but you'll have to be entirely responsible."
:12:13. > :12:15.That really would I think put Alex Salmond in an interesting spot.
:12:15. > :12:20.That's not the route that David Cameron has gone. Already, David
:12:20. > :12:24.Cameron recognised his own mistake, but he's already backed off what he
:12:24. > :12:28.was going to do. On the other hand, he flushed Alex Salmond out to name
:12:28. > :12:33.the time for the referendum. don't think that is any particular
:12:33. > :12:42.skin of Alex Salmond's nose. I recognise - He hadn't told us.
:12:42. > :12:45.but it seems to me that what Hardeep says, the Scots' demand to
:12:45. > :12:49.settle timing and the question or more important, but the number of
:12:49. > :12:54.questions, because what Alex Salmond really wants is not just
:12:54. > :12:58.independence or not, but devolution max, which is what he'll get in the
:12:59. > :13:05.referendum and probably -- If it's a question. We don't know if it
:13:05. > :13:09.will be a question. I think he was fairly clear that devolution max
:13:09. > :13:12.will be an issue and very clear to say it wasn't his preferred option.
:13:12. > :13:16.It is still independence. Sure. At the moment we don't know what the
:13:16. > :13:20.questions are. That is one of the uncertainties. Alan, do you think
:13:20. > :13:24.it was right to put this on to the front burner? I do. I think he was
:13:24. > :13:31.right. It was cack-handed to suggest that the Chancellor was
:13:31. > :13:33.driving this and it was a risk, because it is Cameron and as
:13:33. > :13:39.Hardeep says fewer Tories if Scotland than pandas in Edinburgh
:13:39. > :13:44.zoo. He was right to do it, because it looked as if this was all just
:13:44. > :13:48.about Alex Salmond. What he's launched is a consultation. It's
:13:48. > :13:53.very important among the Scottish people. It has to be Scotland
:13:53. > :13:58.deciding. It has to be the Scottish people deciding. I want to keep the
:13:58. > :14:03.union. I think Michael does as well. Scottish people have to decide. On
:14:03. > :14:07.the question, I don't think the tile being's really important. The
:14:07. > :14:11.question is quite important, because I think Scottish people
:14:11. > :14:15.probably want a yes or no answer. Nicola Sturgeon, the deputy leader,
:14:15. > :14:25.said that is what it should be and for most people you get devolution
:14:25. > :14:30.
:14:30. > :14:34.You talked in your film about it's time for the settled will of the
:14:34. > :14:39.Scottish people? Yes. I looked at the Scottish attitude survey and,
:14:39. > :14:42.there's a big chart published in tomorrow's Economist showing this,
:14:42. > :14:46.the most comprehensive study of Scottish opinion, entirely
:14:46. > :14:51.independent. It shows the settled will of the Scottish people is
:14:51. > :14:55.stuck and has been since 197 at around 28 for independence?
:14:55. > :15:00.Absluetdly fine. If that is the settled will of the Scottish people,
:15:00. > :15:07.allow that to be heard. You implied that the will of the Scottish
:15:07. > :15:12.people was independence? No, I did not. Watch the film again. I think
:15:12. > :15:16.Andrew, it's very important we make this point clear. The exercise of
:15:16. > :15:20.democracy is the single most important thing. I'm not here to
:15:20. > :15:23.suggest what the result ought to be, I'm just cheesed off at Westminster
:15:23. > :15:27.not allowing us to express ourselfs in that way. I thought you wanted
:15:27. > :15:31.independence? That is not the issue. That's what you are here to argue?
:15:31. > :15:34.I'm here to argue that we should be allowed to be heard. David Cameron,
:15:34. > :15:37.he's so keen on the Scots to have a referendum as soon as possible,
:15:37. > :15:41.he's not so keen on the British having a referendum on Europe. You
:15:41. > :15:45.know what I mean? There are hypocrites and there are hypocrites.
:15:45. > :15:50.There is nothing in this for David Cameron politically. He's got one
:15:50. > :15:56.MP, Labour's got a lot in it politically so he must really, I
:15:56. > :15:59.mean he must believe in the union? It's a hugely magnanimous point,
:16:00. > :16:04.yes and he's never allowed any arguments against the union to be
:16:04. > :16:08.deployed in his favour. For example, when Gordon Brown became Prime
:16:08. > :16:10.Minister, there should have been the most enormous fuss. How could a
:16:10. > :16:14.man representing a Scottish constituency, when we have
:16:14. > :16:17.devolution in Scotland, possibly be the Prime Minister of the United
:16:17. > :16:21.Kingdom when most decisions he took didn't affect his own constituents.
:16:21. > :16:26.I would have made a huge fuss about that, David Cameron did not make
:16:26. > :16:31.any kind of English advantage point. So as a matter of principle he must
:16:31. > :16:34.really believe this? He must believe it. The union's been highly
:16:34. > :16:42.successful and the Scots would be foolish to leave it. I also believe,
:16:42. > :16:48.and Hardeep hinted at this a moment ago, I think that the Scots are
:16:48. > :16:52.infantalised - that's right isn't it? I'm not sure what it means?
:16:52. > :16:57.Madeley children with their relationship with England. They are
:16:57. > :16:59.fed subsidy and they depend on that subsidy and the kind of argument
:16:59. > :17:03.for Scottish independence is they'd get much less money, they would
:17:03. > :17:08.have to live on their own in the world, they wouldn't be able to
:17:08. > :17:12.pursue this socialist fantasy. would think they would be the sixth
:17:12. > :17:18.richest country in the world if they got all the oil revenues. They
:17:18. > :17:21.don't see it that way? Not at all. We'd be much more prosperous if we
:17:21. > :17:25.were independent and had the oil. But maybe it would not happen. They
:17:25. > :17:30.would have to become a tiger economy, that would be the only way.
:17:30. > :17:35.At the moment Alex Salmond is head and shoulders above the other
:17:35. > :17:44.Scottish politicians in Tedburg Parliament, but is Alistair Darling
:17:44. > :17:49.the man to change that? Is he the man to lead don't break up Britain
:17:49. > :17:54.campaign -- in Edinburgh. Alex Salmond is a consumate politician.
:17:54. > :17:57.When we get on to the substance of the argument and we have been
:17:57. > :18:01.talking about process up until now, but the substance of the argument,
:18:01. > :18:05.the important thing has to be Scots that are leading the debate.
:18:05. > :18:11.Michael Moore seems to me perfectly reasonable, the Scottish Secretary,
:18:11. > :18:15.to be taking the lead on this, not Osborne or Cameron. The Scottish
:18:15. > :18:18.people are far more likely to recognise a panda than Michael
:18:18. > :18:22.Moore. That is the presence the Tories have. Again, I make the
:18:22. > :18:27.point that, you know, a minority administration in London is telling
:18:27. > :18:34.a majority administration in Holyrood what to do. It's democracy
:18:34. > :18:39.on its head. All right. It's Parliament. I don't hear the Lib
:18:39. > :18:45.Dems saying much about it but when do they ever say much about it.
:18:45. > :18:49.Crystal ball - 2014, Mr Salmond's got his way in the timing of the
:18:49. > :18:52.referendum but Westminster's got its way on insisting about a simple
:18:52. > :19:02.question on independence, should Scotland be independent or not -
:19:02. > :19:06.yes or no. What's the result? think a very close no. Alan? No.
:19:06. > :19:10.think I'm with Hardeep, a very close no. I think Alex Salmond will
:19:10. > :19:14.persuade a lot of people. By the way, I don't think your scenario is
:19:14. > :19:18.what I think will happen. That was for this particular crystal ball.
:19:18. > :19:22.We'll come back to this and use your crystal ball soon. Thank you
:19:22. > :19:27.for being with us, Hardeep. It's late and you have got to be up
:19:27. > :19:32.early for your shelf-stacking job in Poundland, but stay with us for
:19:32. > :19:39.a bit longer, because with us is Peter Snow, broadcasting legend,
:19:39. > :19:47.who will be telling us why his wife's more than happy to share him
:19:47. > :19:50.be - with the model railway in the attic. You can reach us on the
:19:50. > :19:54.interweb or the Tweet machine and the Facebook.
:19:54. > :19:57.This time of year, after the indulgences of Christmas, we all
:19:57. > :20:01.need to lose a few pounds in the middle. You will find me this
:20:01. > :20:05.morning pushing my power beak around, not just merbgs even
:20:05. > :20:11.Michael Gove's been out exercising -- not just me. According to his
:20:11. > :20:17.wife, he wants to lose "two dress sizes". Don't ask! What the
:20:17. > :20:21.Education Secretary wears in the privacy of his own at the tick is -
:20:21. > :20:31.- attic is only his business. We sent Nick watt to get in shape with
:20:31. > :20:50.
:20:50. > :20:55.Mr Not vaitor. This is his round-up It's 2012 and the London Olympics
:20:55. > :20:59.are less than 200 days away. My date as a Communications Workers'
:20:59. > :21:04.Unionty 1500 metre champion, well, they're a distant memory -- my days.
:21:04. > :21:10.If I'm to make it into Team GB, I've really got to get into shape.
:21:11. > :21:14.I just need a bit of motivation. you, you get over here, you lazy
:21:14. > :21:20.one. Get over here. Look at the state of you. You need exercise.
:21:20. > :21:25.Get your kit on, now! I'm beginning to understand how Ed Miliband felt
:21:25. > :21:31.over the Christmas period yod. Whilst he watched back-to-back
:21:31. > :21:34.episodes of The Killing, he was lambasted on all sides. Even his
:21:34. > :21:39.guru accused him of having no strategy and little energy. So this
:21:39. > :21:43.week, he returned to his signature theme and confronted David Cameron
:21:43. > :21:49.head-on. I say to the Prime Minister, who are you trying to
:21:49. > :21:54.kid? Nobody is going to believe you came into politics to end croney
:21:54. > :22:02.capitalism. But now that he has accepted this is a battleground of
:22:02. > :22:07.politics, I say, bring it on. I say you bring it on. Let's get
:22:07. > :22:10.physical # I Juan that get physical
:22:10. > :22:15.Miliband is immensely frustrated. He's done more than any other party
:22:15. > :22:19.leader to shape the debate on the creation of what he calls
:22:19. > :22:23.responsible capitalism. But he's poll ratings are dire. And he's in
:22:23. > :22:29.danger of entering the territory occupied by previous Tory leaders
:22:29. > :22:33.where his endorsement of an idea can kill off support for it. On the
:22:33. > :22:37.other hand, David Cameron is achieving what pollsters call cut-
:22:37. > :22:42.through. He's now embarking on the old Prime Ministerial trick of
:22:42. > :22:46.thrashing an opponent and then piggy backing on his ideas.
:22:46. > :22:51.Excessive growth in payment, unrelated to success, that's
:22:51. > :22:57.frankly ripping off the shareholder and the customer and is croney
:22:57. > :23:00.capitalism and is wrong. Apparently, it's all about speed. As this
:23:00. > :23:06.former county champion can testify, and so this week, the Government
:23:06. > :23:11.finally gave its approval to High Speed Two.
:23:11. > :23:14.A modern, reliable, fast service between our major cities and
:23:14. > :23:19.international gateways befitting the 21 century will transform the
:23:19. > :23:23.way we travel and promote Britain's economic and social prosperity.
:23:23. > :23:27.Come on, you lazy brute. George Osborne would describe this as a
:23:27. > :23:32.win-win for the Government. He can claim he is promoting economic
:23:32. > :23:35.growth through a �32 billion infrastructure project. But the
:23:35. > :23:40.Chancellor won't need to spend megabucks on laying any track
:23:40. > :23:45.through bucks until after the next election.
:23:45. > :23:49.Come on, tone up your body and legs. That keen but rather slow jogger,
:23:49. > :23:54.David Cameron, has also caught the fitness bug. He held the first
:23:54. > :24:01.Cabinet meeting of the year at the Olympics handball arena. No
:24:01. > :24:05.surprises about who stole the show. # Jump for my love... #
:24:05. > :24:09.George Osborne outlined to the Cabinet his strategy to save the
:24:09. > :24:14.union. The next day the Scotland secretary appeared in the Commons
:24:14. > :24:19.to tell MPs that only Westminster has the right to hold or the power
:24:19. > :24:21.to grant a referendum. To legislate for a referendum on
:24:21. > :24:25.independence, the Scottish Parliament must have the legal
:24:25. > :24:29.power to do so. It's the government's clear view that the
:24:29. > :24:33.Scottish Parliament does not have that legal power.
:24:33. > :24:39.Come on... Even while the Scotland secretary statement was being
:24:39. > :24:44.digested, the ever canny Scottish First Minister swung into act ion
:24:44. > :24:47.and said he'd hold a referendum on his terms. The date for the
:24:47. > :24:52.referendum has to be autumn 2014 because this is the biggest
:24:52. > :24:56.decision Scotland's made for 300 years. Get up and do something
:24:56. > :25:01.about it. I can understand that perhaps they haven't thought about
:25:01. > :25:05.these things but they must resist the temptation to interfere in
:25:05. > :25:14.Scottish democracy. This has the pen tomorrow become a major
:25:14. > :25:17.contusional clash. -- potential to become a major constitutional clash.
:25:17. > :25:23.Alex Salmond is working hard to ensure that the politics remains on
:25:23. > :25:29.his side, as he depicts the announcement as a Thatcheresque
:25:29. > :25:32.power grab. Oi, you, stop all the chinwaging, let's go. Our oldest
:25:32. > :25:38.Parliamentarians show too that they've been limbering up, as they
:25:38. > :25:43.tore into the reform Bill. Come on... If he's going to rob the poor
:25:43. > :25:48.to pay the rich, then enter into a different form of morality. Come
:25:48. > :25:53.on... You need to do, this lots of work... With just a handful of Lib
:25:53. > :25:58.Dem rebels who oppose the cuts in benefit payments, but many more
:25:58. > :26:07.abstained showing that Nick Clegg is going to need all his stamina to
:26:07. > :26:13.keep his party together as he supports the Government reduction
:26:13. > :26:17.plan. As we look forward to 2012, we can be certain of one thing - I
:26:17. > :26:21.will sadly not be competing in the Olympics. Very obvious... On a
:26:21. > :26:24.rather more important note, we know that the economy will face a
:26:24. > :26:28.challenging year. But who could have guessed that at the beginning
:26:28. > :26:38.of the year, we'd face a constitutional crisis. Who knows
:26:38. > :26:39.
:26:39. > :26:47.what else is going to happen. might buy you a gold medal...
:26:47. > :26:50.Nick Watt and Mr Mote tvaitor -- Mr Motivator. Alan, it's clear that
:26:50. > :26:53.it's really tough to get any message across for the Leader of
:26:53. > :26:59.the Opposition? Is it? I don't know whether for a Leader of the
:26:59. > :27:03.Opposition it's tougher now than it was for previous leaders of the
:27:03. > :27:08.opposition. I said something about Cameron in a piece during the week
:27:08. > :27:13.that he's all hat and no cattle, as they say in Texas. Ed seems to be
:27:13. > :27:16.all cattle and no hat. Lots of policies. He's thinking really hard
:27:16. > :27:20.about what we emerge from, given all that we are going through at
:27:20. > :27:24.the moment, and not returning to business as usual, and lots of the
:27:24. > :27:31.ideas are being picked up elsewhere. He's doing all that. The hat bit is
:27:31. > :27:35.about, I suppose, the swagger and the iedfieblt of him with the
:27:35. > :27:40.public. -- identifyability. He needs to do more of that. One of
:27:40. > :27:46.the big tests for him is, he takes all the flak that's been thrown at
:27:46. > :27:50.him and it's been a lot of flak... From his own side? Well, from
:27:50. > :27:54.whoever, but he deals with it in a very calm and measured way. Some of
:27:54. > :28:00.that - he said this is an audition for if you want to be the Prime
:28:00. > :28:04.Minister - that takes a certain amount of courage and a certain
:28:04. > :28:09.amount of mettle and he's got that. If the problem was that the
:28:09. > :28:12.policies were wrong, that's quite easy to put right? If the problem
:28:12. > :28:17.is that the person who's saying them is wrong, that's a lot
:28:17. > :28:23.tougher? No, I think there's all kinds of examples of the closer you
:28:23. > :28:29.come to a general election, the more the public focus on the Leader
:28:29. > :28:34.of the Opposition who finds it very difficult to get any kind of
:28:34. > :28:39.foothold into that, because... do you get swagger? I don't know
:28:39. > :28:46.how you do that? You can't change. Swagger is probably the wrong word.
:28:46. > :28:52.Ed's not going to walk around as if he's the... Exactly the right point.
:28:52. > :29:00.Most leaders of the opposition have been exactly where Ed Miliband's
:29:00. > :29:03.been. One who was not was nach Margaret Thatcher. The Cambridge
:29:03. > :29:07.by-election, the car park was filled with a roaring engines of
:29:07. > :29:12.cars as he motorcade swept into the car park and all the doors swung up
:29:12. > :29:20.simultaneously and she jumped out of her car and said "take me to the
:29:20. > :29:25.battle!". Crikey. She just absolutely had had it. Tony Blair
:29:25. > :29:28.didn't have a period like this as Leader of the Opposition? He was
:29:28. > :29:33.seen as Prime Ministerial material when he became leader straightaway.
:29:33. > :29:36.David Cameron was never like this when he became leader? He had very
:29:36. > :29:40.rough patches. Despite his adulation, Margaret Thatcher had
:29:40. > :29:47.rough patches. I remember when a lot of Tories wanted to get rid of
:29:47. > :29:52.her in 76, 77 but even so it wasn't like this. You said stuems your
:29:52. > :29:57.party sounds a bit like a university seminar? -- sometimes.
:29:57. > :30:01.Yes, that's the party. Because of the background of the people there
:30:01. > :30:05.who've spent their lives in university-type seminars.
:30:05. > :30:12.things here. First of all, Tony Blair came, in as did David Cameron,
:30:12. > :30:16.after there'd be 2-2 or three defeats. It was a long way from the
:30:16. > :30:21.last defeat. Ed's come in at a difficult period when you have just
:30:21. > :30:25.been voted out of office. The public, you can't say to them, you
:30:25. > :30:28.made the wrong decision, they made the right decision, they rejected
:30:28. > :30:38.us. That's a difficult position for the Leader of the Opposition to be
:30:38. > :30:39.
:30:39. > :30:42.We do sometimes conduct our debates as if it is a Fabian Society
:30:42. > :30:45.lecture and I love the Fabian Society, but it's not going to get
:30:45. > :30:50.home to the public and that's all about what I'm talking about, the
:30:50. > :30:53.way you portray this. The way you portray yourself. Ed has some very
:30:53. > :30:58.good ideas and we need to ensure that it can be explained in
:30:58. > :31:02.language that people understand. That was Thatcher's great talent
:31:02. > :31:06.and Blair's great talent. polling figures are not great for
:31:06. > :31:10.the party. They are pretty dire for Mr Miliband personally. Does it
:31:10. > :31:15.matter at this stage? It is unlikely there will be an election
:31:15. > :31:20.before 2015. Does it matter or do you sometimes get caught in a
:31:20. > :31:24.downward spiral? I think it matters quite a lot. The experience we had
:31:24. > :31:27.with Michael Howard and Iain Duncan Smith, William Hague and Neil
:31:27. > :31:34.Kinnock is once they got into the dive they couldn't pull out of the
:31:34. > :31:38.dive. I think that probably is where Ed is. That is highly
:31:38. > :31:42.significant, because the coalition has three absolutely bloody years
:31:42. > :31:46.ahead of it. Goodness knows how much worse things are going to get
:31:46. > :31:56.and I think David Cameron can look forward to, not assume, but look
:31:56. > :32:00.forward to winning the next election. It is almost a greater
:32:00. > :32:05.point. A Labour MP said to me a lot of what Ed says is absolutely right
:32:05. > :32:11.at this stage for a leader. He says the right thing, the problem is
:32:11. > :32:14.it's him that's saying them. don't accept them. You kind of do,
:32:14. > :32:20.because you made the point about the cattle and the hat. I don't
:32:20. > :32:25.accept the point that whatever Ed says it's not going to get a hold
:32:25. > :32:30.because it's him saying it. I do believe that the party needs to
:32:31. > :32:34.push Ed more and the party needs to be synonymous with Ed. It needs to
:32:34. > :32:38.be what Labour is saying when he says it. Sometimes there are too
:32:38. > :32:41.many voices. It needs to be channelled through Ed, but the
:32:41. > :32:48.messages are absolutely right for the British public. He was saying
:32:48. > :32:56.in his speech this week, whether it was about the issue of the over 75s
:32:56. > :33:01.getting the most advantagious energy prices. That is a good idea.
:33:01. > :33:09.I understand why you are being tactful, but you are fearful of
:33:09. > :33:14.following the logic of your own powerful metaphor. That can change.
:33:14. > :33:17.It doesn't. A person who doesn't have a hat or the charisma or the
:33:17. > :33:22.personality, the force, doesn't acquire it. It doesn't get picked
:33:22. > :33:28.up. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with the idea - yes,
:33:28. > :33:32.Thatcher had a great deal of charisma. So did Blair. I don't
:33:32. > :33:36.believe that now it is absolutely essential for every leader to
:33:36. > :33:41.follow a kind of stereotype. You can look at Cameron and Clegg, for
:33:42. > :33:45.instance, who look to be cut out of the same kind of style. I don't
:33:46. > :33:50.believe - and act in the same way. I don't believe that is essential.
:33:50. > :33:54.That the British public are not looking to see is this a decent
:33:54. > :33:59.person, is -- has this person got the right idea for the countries?
:33:59. > :34:06.If you can persuade the people of that, charisma and all the rest is
:34:06. > :34:14.of secondary importance. It helps. I don't think it's the vit at
:34:14. > :34:20.factor. There is a -- vital factor. There was a slightly exect kel look
:34:20. > :34:23.on Michael's face. -- expect kel look on Michael's face. Now
:34:23. > :34:26.political and literal trainspotters both wet their anoraks this week
:34:26. > :34:28.with the announcement of plans to cut 35 minutes off the journey time
:34:28. > :34:31.between London and Birmingham, but only after the Government pumped
:34:31. > :34:34.extra wonga into Cheryl Gillan's tunnel - part of its expensive
:34:34. > :34:36.slush fund to buy off opposition in the True-Blue Tory shires. Yes, the
:34:37. > :34:39.Government is pushing ahead with its politically-crucial high-speed
:34:39. > :34:41.rail link to all those juicy marginal constituencies in the
:34:41. > :34:44.Midlands and beyond. Samantha Cameron's step-dad blames northern
:34:44. > :34:47.Labour oiks for wanting to trash his beloved countryside and get in
:34:47. > :34:53.the way of all those subsidised windmills which have become such a
:34:53. > :34:56.nice little earner for him. But maybe we should blame the love that
:34:56. > :35:06.dare not speak its name - and put the romance of the train in this
:35:06. > :35:18.
:35:18. > :35:26.A steam cloud surrounds the great British railways, but it's been a
:35:26. > :35:29.wobbly journey in the new era of privatisation. Has our remotional
:35:29. > :35:33.coupling with trains run its course? Standing room only and sky-
:35:33. > :35:41.high fares have done their best to crowd out the old Roman take
:35:41. > :35:44.railway memories. Yet the political locomotion is still back in full
:35:44. > :35:49.force, with Ed Miliband eager to derail David Cameron over ticket
:35:49. > :35:58.costs in the Commons. Instead of his lines he should get the facts
:35:58. > :36:02.right about his own policy. He's just wrong. He is wrong. With the
:36:02. > :36:07.high-speed link given the green light this week, perhaps our
:36:07. > :36:12.passion for railways is about to leave the station once more.
:36:12. > :36:18.Although there will always be one train geek who needs little
:36:18. > :36:23.encouragement to blow his own steam trumpet. I've embarked on another
:36:23. > :36:27.journey, confident that my trusty guide will continue to give me
:36:27. > :36:37.insights into the vast areas of the British Isles that I've yet to
:36:37. > :36:39.
:36:39. > :36:43.explore. SNORE Sorry, Peter Snow. Welcome to the
:36:43. > :36:47.programme. Great to see you. You are very famous for your
:36:47. > :36:54.swingometer and the sandpit during war, but you have kept the toy
:36:54. > :37:00.train set in the atic quite a secret. I haven't actually. --
:37:00. > :37:05.attic. Quite secret. I haven't actually. It goes right around the
:37:05. > :37:10.attic and the outside is a very fast, high-speed train. Any tunnels
:37:10. > :37:15.to go through? Yes. It disappears under a couple. Do you wear a
:37:15. > :37:23.controller's outfit when you do this? Do you have a timetable?
:37:23. > :37:28.Fat Controller, I should! Not in your case. I should. I may do that.
:37:29. > :37:37.You just disappear and you tell the wife, "I'm off now. The 3.30 is
:37:37. > :37:42.due." You make sure it's on time? That's right. Great fun. That's
:37:42. > :37:52.right. I have great fun. Our grandchildren love it. I've had a
:37:52. > :37:55.
:37:55. > :38:03.train since I was four. It is Hornby and a bit of the Flashman.
:38:03. > :38:12.Triple or double O gauge? Double O. When I was a kid of four, I had an
:38:12. > :38:22.O gauge, beautiful yellow thing with sanity fa Faye on it. -- Santa
:38:22. > :38:29.Fe on it. Is the romance of the train stl alive? Oh, yes. People --
:38:29. > :38:34.still alive? Oh, yes. People are pouring on to trains. 7% increase
:38:34. > :38:40.to 1.3 billion railway journeys last year. Half that, only 15 years
:38:40. > :38:45.earlier. Extraordinary. I choose the use of which I think people
:38:45. > :38:48.thought -- I think the use of which people thought was on the way out.
:38:49. > :38:54.It's not the romance seeing the train in from Surrey or
:38:54. > :38:58.Macclesfield in the morning. Even that to me is quite romantic. Not
:38:58. > :39:02.quite as romantic as what Michael was doing the other day or what
:39:02. > :39:08.I've done is going through the Rocky Mown contains. Unbelievable.
:39:08. > :39:15.The steam trains, all over the country. 180-odd? Yep. All over the
:39:15. > :39:19.country. Like the Dartmouth Light Railway. You have mentioned Michael
:39:19. > :39:24.and he has become Mr Trains on the BBC. Did you have any real interest
:39:24. > :39:30.in trains before you got this job? I've never been a train spotter or
:39:30. > :39:34.had a set, but I've always liked them. For instance, you know -
:39:34. > :39:37.not much of a qualification. We are addressing romance. Whenever I go
:39:37. > :39:41.pass a railway line I always look in the hopes there will be a train.
:39:41. > :39:44.When I pass a bridge I don't look in the hopes there will be a coach
:39:44. > :39:49.or bus. There is something about trains which is quite different. I
:39:49. > :39:53.was flying on a plane this morning and every time I looked down and
:39:53. > :39:58.saw a train I felt an excitement. You just felt another TV series
:39:58. > :40:04.coming on. Trains from the air will be the next one. Have you watched
:40:04. > :40:10.the Eurostar going past? Yes. straggering. Do you have any idea
:40:10. > :40:18.what these two are going on? I do, because I am in a constituency in
:40:18. > :40:24.Hull and I'm on the train. Larkin wrote a beautiful poem about the
:40:24. > :40:28.train journey to London and he called it a travelling coincidence.
:40:28. > :40:34.I can remember the romance of the train in the final years of steam.
:40:34. > :40:37.Steam was great, because almost every engine was different and
:40:37. > :40:41.there were different classifications. And huge
:40:41. > :40:46.difference between the little chuggers and enormous, sleek
:40:46. > :40:50.expresses. Even the TGV in France, every train looks the same. I quite
:40:50. > :40:55.agree and the Eurostar. You are quite right. They are fantastic.
:40:55. > :41:02.The steams are extraordinary. The ones all over this country and the
:41:02. > :41:09.Polish steam engines, I remember seeing a great big black thing that
:41:09. > :41:14.was six, ten, four and the Indian trains were still steam until
:41:14. > :41:19.recently. Are you expected about the new hide-peed trains? Finally
:41:20. > :41:23.we have caught up -- high-speed trains? Finally, we have caught up.
:41:23. > :41:26.They are running fast trains on time through big cities. We'll
:41:26. > :41:32.bring the north and south of the this country closer together and we
:41:32. > :41:38.are going to have a proper rail system. For or against? For. For,
:41:38. > :41:41.for those reasons. What do you say to people who say this is just a
:41:41. > :41:45.huge vanity, high-capital investment programme and it is
:41:45. > :41:50.Concorde for slow learners? remember when Andrew brought this
:41:50. > :41:56.to the Cabinet and one of the papers that he produced was a paper
:41:56. > :42:01.of the motorway system, almost as it is now. It was taken from the
:42:01. > :42:05.post-war Government who, at a time when debt to GDP ratio was 214% and
:42:05. > :42:09.they had the vision to look ahead and apart from the M25, it's the
:42:09. > :42:13.motorway system that was built. Andrew was making the point if we
:42:13. > :42:20.just make do and mend and upgrade and everyone remembers what the
:42:20. > :42:24.west coastline was like before. We are letting down future generations.
:42:24. > :42:27.It is quite different from Concorde. It is infrastructure. What is
:42:27. > :42:31.remarkable about railway infrastructure is how long it has
:42:31. > :42:35.lasted. One thing I've learnt from doing the programmes is it is
:42:35. > :42:39.remarkable that a technology that was first used in the 1830s is
:42:39. > :42:45.almost exactly the same as we use today. It is steel wheels on steel
:42:45. > :42:48.rails. Obviously, the form of the locomotion is different, but
:42:48. > :42:54.otherwise the same thing. Your was going through the Rockies? That's
:42:54. > :43:01.right. Mine was the Blue Train from Cape Town to pret toria. --
:43:01. > :43:04.Pretoria. King cross to Hull. That's your lot for tonight, folks.
:43:04. > :43:07.But not for us - Michael's taking us out for a late-night knickbocker
:43:07. > :43:10.glory and a free lollipop at the Little Chef before yet another
:43:10. > :43:14.great British institution falls by the roadside. Yes, over 100 are to
:43:14. > :43:17.be closed. John Major is said to be so distraught he's giving up egg
:43:17. > :43:20.and chips, but we leave you with news that every London cab driver's