:00:07. > :00:12.Tonight, join This Week for some political stargazing. Photographed
:00:12. > :00:15.from space, the Costa Concordia lying on it's side. But back on
:00:15. > :00:20.planet earth, the leadership skills of the ship's captain are being
:00:20. > :00:30.closely observed. Politician and top naval man Admiral Lord West
:00:30. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:34.tells us what it takes to be a leader with star quality. If you
:00:34. > :00:38.people are born leaders. The Royal Navy has learned lessons over many
:00:38. > :00:41.centuries and applying those lessons would help Westminster a
:00:41. > :00:44.lot. And who are the brightest stars in
:00:44. > :00:51.the Westminster sky? The Daily Mail's Quentin Letts is studying
:00:51. > :00:54.the political galaxy. Is Michael Gove on planet Mars with his
:00:54. > :00:57.thoughts about a royal yacht? And are the coalition welfare
:00:57. > :01:05.reforms dragging disabled people into a black hole? Star performer
:01:06. > :01:15.of Extras, Francesca Martinez, is feeling the pull. I've got cerebral
:01:16. > :01:19.Get ready for a Big Bang. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week,
:01:19. > :01:24.a cosmic dwarf in the political universe, with zero atmosphere, a
:01:24. > :01:27.black hole for a brain and very little sign of intelligent life. A
:01:27. > :01:30.bit like the Department for Education in fact, where Young
:01:30. > :01:33.Micky Gove, the man supposedly in charge of educating the nation's
:01:33. > :01:36.children, has been filling his curiously empty days with securing
:01:36. > :01:42.some brown-nose points from the Palace via the age-old Tory trick
:01:42. > :01:46.of sucking up to the royals. Never mind all those pesky failing
:01:47. > :01:52.schools. What matters most to Mikey is the outrageous failure to
:01:52. > :01:55.provide the Windsors with a dedicated floating cocktail cabinet.
:01:55. > :02:00.And if that means wasting valuable time pestering Cabinet colleagues
:02:00. > :02:04.for support and rich folk for money, so be it. Greater love hath no man
:02:04. > :02:09.than this, that he lay down his political credibility for a royal
:02:09. > :02:12.yacht and a possible knighthood. Speaking of those who have trouble
:02:12. > :02:15.being taken seriously, I am not, sadly, joined on the sofa tonight
:02:15. > :02:22.by the scourge of "divide and rule" evil whiteys everywhere, Diane
:02:22. > :02:25.Abbott. Despite last week's announcement that she'd be billing
:02:25. > :02:33.us this week for her time, and despite no public demand whatsoever,
:02:33. > :02:36.Diane has let it be known that she is now "otherwise engaged". So if
:02:36. > :02:43.you, or anyone you know, catches sight of Diane tonight, please call
:02:43. > :02:46.0800 ABBOTT-ON-THE-RUN, before she does or says something else stupid.
:02:46. > :02:52.So, turning to those who are always available at late notice, I'm
:02:52. > :02:57.joined on the sofa tonight by two of TV's easiest bookings. The
:02:57. > :03:01.Lembit Opik and Sally Bercow of late-night political chat. Or
:03:01. > :03:11.should that be chavs? I speak, of course, of Michael Portillo and
:03:11. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:15.Jacqui Smith. Good evening. Good evening. My moment of the week?
:03:15. > :03:20.Mitt Romney, the front runner for the Republican nomination has had
:03:20. > :03:24.to reveal that is effective Taggart -- tax rate is 15%. He is a very
:03:24. > :03:29.rich man, owner of a hedge fund. The average American has seen no
:03:29. > :03:35.increase in living standards for 30 years in real terms. The average
:03:35. > :03:41.American is paying 35% tax. That is the top rate. I thought that was
:03:41. > :03:44.the average. It is a lot more than 15, that is for sure. I do not
:03:44. > :03:48.think they candidate with the tax rate of 15% is going to stand a
:03:48. > :03:51.chance, because for once in this American election, the question of
:03:51. > :03:57.unfairness, disparity of income is going to be a big issue. It looks
:03:57. > :04:01.to me as though Mitt Romney is going to be beaten by Barack Obama.
:04:01. > :04:07.I hope we'll be there to find out. I hope the director-general is
:04:07. > :04:10.watching and saving his pennies to send us. I look like a woman of the
:04:10. > :04:13.people but I am a big fan of political economy, so this week I
:04:13. > :04:18.had a surfeit of speeches about responsible capitalism. I have had
:04:18. > :04:23.three, of course. Nick Clegg, Ed Miliband today and David Cameron.
:04:23. > :04:26.All these politicians recognise, led by Ed Miliband, that there is a
:04:26. > :04:29.question about how you make capitalism work in the sort of
:04:29. > :04:32.crisis it is in at the moment. The real point about whether they will
:04:32. > :04:37.break through is whether they can translate that into policies that
:04:37. > :04:40.will resonate with the voters. Ed Miliband, I think, is doing better
:04:40. > :04:46.than most in actually giving examples of what that actually
:04:46. > :04:50.means. You would say that, wouldn't you? Not always. It is impossible
:04:50. > :04:55.to talk about capitalism these days without an adjective in front of it.
:04:55. > :05:01.I have a moment of the week. I was filming in How So this week, John
:05:01. > :05:04.Prescott's home town. -- in Hull. We went to his favourite Chinese
:05:04. > :05:09.restaurant and I asked the waiter to see the wine list and he said,
:05:09. > :05:15.no need, John Prescott has left a bottle for you. It was a bottle of
:05:15. > :05:18.Blue Nun. How cool was that? It tasted rather good. I hope I have
:05:18. > :05:23.not let the cat out of the bag. It tasted better than I thought it
:05:23. > :05:25.would. Now, Now, the questionable actions of
:05:26. > :05:29.Captain Francesco Schettino have been the focus of much media
:05:29. > :05:32.attention this week after his cruise ship ran aground off the
:05:33. > :05:36.coast of Italy and he was accused of fleeing the scene in a lifeboat
:05:36. > :05:40.whilst men, women and children fought for survival on board. The
:05:40. > :05:44.captain said he'd tripped into the lifeboat and couldn't go back on
:05:44. > :05:48.board because it was dark, which has got be the first sketch in the
:05:48. > :05:51.next series of Little Britain. So what does it mean to be the captain
:05:51. > :05:55.of a ship and a leader that commands respect? Can politicans
:05:55. > :05:58.learn a thing or two from naval leadership when it's done properly?
:05:58. > :06:08.Admiral Lord West, former head of the Royal Navy and Security
:06:08. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:26.Minister, gives us his take on the We have all seen the dramatic and
:06:26. > :06:30.horrifying footage of the Costa Concordia capsizing and sinking
:06:30. > :06:37.close to an island off Italy, and people desperately trying to get
:06:37. > :06:41.ashore. It is too early to make a judgement about the actions of
:06:41. > :06:44.people involved, or what caused the accident. But there is no doubt
:06:44. > :06:48.when one listens to the radio conversations between the
:06:48. > :06:58.coastguard and the ship's captain, when one hears the ship's captain's
:06:58. > :07:06.
:07:06. > :07:10.statements, it makes one feel very I think it is fair to say that any
:07:10. > :07:15.naval officer would field it was his duty to remain with his ship if
:07:15. > :07:19.it were sinking, until those people he was responsible for were
:07:19. > :07:24.actually saved and secure and out of the ship. That, certainly, has
:07:24. > :07:28.been a tradition for many centuries. Indeed, I was captain of HMS ardent,
:07:28. > :07:32.a frigate in the South Atlantic. I was bombed throughout the day and
:07:32. > :07:35.my ship finally sank and I did not leave until I was sure the only
:07:35. > :07:38.people remaining in the ship were dead. I have considerable
:07:38. > :07:42.experience of leadership in the Royal Navy over many years, but
:07:42. > :07:49.when I went into the business world and later into the ministerial
:07:49. > :07:54.world, I found those lessons of leadership equally applied there.
:07:54. > :07:57.One lesson, of course, his moral integrity, where you must make the
:07:57. > :08:05.right and correct decision even if it affects your safety, wellbeing,
:08:05. > :08:09.or possibly your wealth. Loyalty is crucially important. You must put
:08:09. > :08:12.yourself on the line for your people. Loyalty goes both ways,
:08:12. > :08:16.upwards and downwards. You must make sure you recognise when one of
:08:16. > :08:20.your team has done something really good. They should get the credit
:08:20. > :08:24.for it, not you. Similarly, if something goes wrong and they get
:08:24. > :08:28.it wrong, you must be the one who takes the blame. They are your team.
:08:28. > :08:32.There is no way you can put the responsibility for getting it wrong
:08:32. > :08:37.on to them. These things are important in leadership terms. Very
:08:37. > :08:41.few people in the world are born leaders. Similarly, very few have a
:08:41. > :08:46.charisma bypass and will never be a leader. Most people can learn
:08:46. > :08:53.leadership. In all my experience at the Westminster village, I believe
:08:53. > :08:57.if they did that Westminster would be a much better place.
:08:57. > :09:04.Admiral Alan Weston the deck of HMS Wellington. He now joins us in our
:09:04. > :09:08.poop deck in Westminster. -- Admiral Alan West. You saw your
:09:08. > :09:12.ship go down in the Falklands War. You lost men when that happened.
:09:12. > :09:19.Hard to imagine, from us sitting on the sofa in a comfortable studio, a
:09:19. > :09:23.bigger test of leadership than that. Yes, but it is imbued in you from
:09:23. > :09:28.the moment you joined the Navy or the military. As I say, you can
:09:28. > :09:31.learn certain things, and you feel a huge bond with your ship. In the
:09:32. > :09:35.Navy, it is called your grey mistress. You spend more time with
:09:35. > :09:39.it than you do with your family. The thought of leaving it is
:09:39. > :09:43.horrendous. You finally have to do a switch from doing everything to
:09:43. > :09:46.keep your ship's safe, even if people have to die to do it, to
:09:46. > :09:48.suddenly realising that you have to let it go, but then you have to
:09:49. > :09:56.make sure you look off and save those people you are responsible
:09:56. > :10:01.for. They are your people. Can you learn that kind of leadership, or
:10:01. > :10:04.are you born to be a leader like that? I think a lot of it you can
:10:04. > :10:07.be taught. A very small number of people are born leaders. Most
:10:07. > :10:12.people have to learn it and they can build their capability. There
:10:12. > :10:15.are lessons and ways of doing it. There are some people who eat you
:10:15. > :10:20.follow out of curiosity, but they are not really the people you want.
:10:20. > :10:23.-- there are some people who you follow out of curiosity. But most
:10:23. > :10:28.people have to learn it. Most people pick up these various
:10:28. > :10:31.techniques and ways of doing things, how to behave properly. I think
:10:31. > :10:34.moral integrity, in terms of realising that actually you will
:10:34. > :10:39.have to do something that might go totally against the grain in terms
:10:39. > :10:42.of your safety, security, wellbeing, whatever it is. I think that is
:10:42. > :10:46.very important. I am a great believer in humankind and most men
:10:46. > :10:51.and women actually have that there, but they need to be trained and for
:10:51. > :10:55.it to be brought out. Both of you have run great departments of state.
:10:55. > :10:58.Let me start with you, Michael. When you walked into the Ministry
:10:58. > :11:02.of Defence as Secretary of State for Defence, this huge department
:11:02. > :11:07.with so many people, a huge budget, huge responsibilities, did you
:11:07. > :11:12.think, I can lead this department, or did you think, gulp, can I lead
:11:12. > :11:15.this department? I thought I could leave the department but I was
:11:15. > :11:19.immensely influenced and talk a great deal by the people I was
:11:19. > :11:23.leading, because a lot of them were military and they had the
:11:23. > :11:27.characteristics that Allen has mentioned. And I entirely agree,
:11:27. > :11:33.the armed forces are a very good example of how leadership is taught.
:11:33. > :11:37.Because they draw people from all parts of society. And at the lower
:11:37. > :11:42.levels, the lower levels of entry, some of the people brought into the
:11:42. > :11:45.armed services are kids from very difficult backgrounds, who turn out
:11:45. > :11:48.to be absolutely exemplary figures. And we know that some of the
:11:48. > :11:52.greatest heroes of recent conflicts have been kids who have been taken
:11:52. > :11:56.from difficult backgrounds and have been taught leadership and courage.
:11:56. > :12:02.They have then shown this fantastic bond towards the people that they
:12:02. > :12:06.are fighting alongside. Absolutely inspiring. Someone with your career
:12:06. > :12:09.has to have had confidence in your leadership abilities. After all,
:12:09. > :12:13.you ran to the leader of the Conservative Party, which means you
:12:13. > :12:18.must have had enough confidence to think you could lead the country,
:12:18. > :12:22.because that is what it could lead to. Yes. I think politicians also
:12:22. > :12:25.go through a bit of leadership training. It is not based at the --
:12:25. > :12:29.particularly sophisticated leadership training, not organised,
:12:29. > :12:32.but you do rise from being a Member of Parliament to being the most
:12:32. > :12:36.junior level of minister to being a middle-ranking minister, to being a
:12:36. > :12:41.Cabinet minister, and then a more senior Cabinet minister. You jolly
:12:41. > :12:44.well ought to be learning something along the process. I was not quite
:12:44. > :12:47.sure what Alan was getting at, because there was a sting in the
:12:47. > :12:51.tail of his film which seemed to imply that he thought people in
:12:51. > :12:56.politics were not offering leadership. I think we are seeing
:12:56. > :12:59.fine examples of leadership at the moment. You hold on to that Sting
:12:59. > :13:08.because I'm going to come back in a minute. Prepare it, develop it and
:13:08. > :13:13.make it potent. Can I give one tiny example? Jacqui has been patient.
:13:13. > :13:17.Unlike other people who come on the show. There is a wonderful moment
:13:17. > :13:20.in the Iron Lady film, where a lot of people wearing naval uniform are
:13:20. > :13:25.plotting the course of the Belgrano across the map during the Falklands
:13:25. > :13:28.conflict. And then all of the men in the room turned to the leader,
:13:28. > :13:34.the Prime Minister, and they say, what is the decision, Prime
:13:34. > :13:39.Minister? And that is the loneliness of command, in the end.
:13:39. > :13:43.That responsibility rests with one person. President Obama had that
:13:43. > :13:45.over a summer Bin Laden, taking the final decision and sending in extra
:13:45. > :13:52.helicopters which saved the day. What did you feel like when you
:13:52. > :13:57.walked into the Home Office, that is -- the dysfunctional department.
:13:57. > :14:02.I was his boss, of course, so I am interested in what he has to say. I
:14:02. > :14:05.felt, gulp, I can do this. Michael is right, you do not become a
:14:05. > :14:09.secretary of state without having, in my case, eight years of
:14:09. > :14:12.ministerial life up to that point. Nevertheless, and political
:14:13. > :14:17.leadership is not about putting your life at risk, so it is not the
:14:17. > :14:22.sort of personal risk and bravery that Alan had to show in his
:14:22. > :14:25.leadership. But there are, I suppose, both the requirement to
:14:25. > :14:31.set strategic direction and the ability to be able to deal with
:14:31. > :14:37.events that hit you. The first time I met Alan was the day after I
:14:37. > :14:41.became Home Secretary, when we were responding to the failed terrorist
:14:41. > :14:46.attack in Haymarket and subsequently in Glasgow. Which
:14:46. > :14:50.could have been horrendous. could have been absolutely awful.
:14:50. > :14:54.That is when you are thrown in at the deep end, and you respond to it,
:14:54. > :15:02.as Michael also rightly says, with the support of some extremely
:15:02. > :15:06.talented and committed people You have shown great leadership, as
:15:06. > :15:09.you did in the Falklands and you met great leadership in your
:15:09. > :15:13.military career. What did you make of the leadership when you entered
:15:13. > :15:17.the political world? When - I do believe there are certain areas
:15:17. > :15:21.within the world and maybe it is because politics makes this happen,
:15:21. > :15:26.which run contrary to the way we would run things in the military.
:15:26. > :15:30.For example, the issue of courting popularity. Now, some politicians
:15:30. > :15:34.do do that. People - you don't want people necessarily to be your mates,
:15:34. > :15:39.but admire what you are doing and to be pleased you are leader and
:15:39. > :15:43.most people want to have a good leader, so that can be a problem, I
:15:43. > :15:48.believe. The business of packaging oneself in a different way. We are
:15:48. > :15:51.taught firmly you have to be who you are. A marine or sailor will
:15:51. > :15:54.bowl out in seconds if you are pretending to be something else. I
:15:54. > :15:59.believe the British people bowl out pretty quickly, but sometimes
:15:59. > :16:03.politicians do try to do that. I think that is a bad thing. I think
:16:03. > :16:08.there are examples of these things where you need to create within
:16:08. > :16:13.your organisation a feeling where actually they would do anything
:16:13. > :16:17.rather than let you down. I remember my daughter saying,
:16:17. > :16:22.because my wife would sometimes tell them off, you just needed to
:16:22. > :16:25.raise your eyebrow, because we would do anything, because we would
:16:25. > :16:29.do anything. I believe people don't always do that. Maybe it's just
:16:29. > :16:35.because that is politics, but I think people could learn more and
:16:35. > :16:39.apply some of those things and it would have a huge effect.
:16:39. > :16:44.recent Labour leaders, Tony Blair, even his enemies said he was a
:16:44. > :16:49.natural leader. Gordon Brown, many people thought he was a natural
:16:49. > :16:51.leader, but he didn't. What went wrong? Different leadership in
:16:51. > :16:56.being Chancellor and being Prime Minister. It comes back to the
:16:56. > :17:00.point I was making about how you respond to events. Now, Gordon, I
:17:00. > :17:07.think everybody would say was a splendid leader as the Chancellor,
:17:07. > :17:11.where you had long -- longer to consider the route you needed to
:17:11. > :17:16.take. When he became Prime Minister he responded very well to the sorts
:17:16. > :17:23.of challenges that were facing him. I think it was more difficult for
:17:23. > :17:29.him to quickly and instinctively decide on the things that hit him.
:17:29. > :17:34.Whereas Tony had an instinctive way of quite often saying and doing the
:17:34. > :17:38.things that resonated with the public. Alan, we have come to the
:17:38. > :17:42.end, but the Falklands has been in the news again. There is a distant
:17:42. > :17:46.sound of war drums, perhaps, beating. The Prime Minister has
:17:46. > :17:50.made a statement. In your view, because I know you follow this and
:17:50. > :17:55.given the cuts to the defence budget, do we have the capability
:17:55. > :18:01.to defend these islands still and if the worst happened and hostility
:18:01. > :18:04.broke out or looked like it, can we reinforce them in time and to the
:18:05. > :18:08.sufficient level required? I do believe we have the capability to
:18:08. > :18:12.defend them. I believe we need to look very carefully at what poor
:18:12. > :18:17.structures we have there, because having built in large airfield
:18:17. > :18:24.there, if the Argentinean military felt they could get hold of it,
:18:24. > :18:27.then there is a real problem because no longer could we recover
:18:27. > :18:31.it, because we don't have the carriers. I believe people are
:18:31. > :18:37.aware of that and I'm sure the MoD are making the right moves and
:18:37. > :18:40.certainly we can do that. I don't think at the moment they intend
:18:40. > :18:48.military action. It is very volatile. They've always thought
:18:48. > :18:56.they are theirs. You never know what might happen. Thank you.
:18:56. > :19:02.Babestation linked. There's no need to gird your loins just yet,
:19:02. > :19:07.because coming up Francesca Martinez will be joining us to talk
:19:07. > :19:17.about society's attitude towards disabled people. This will make you
:19:17. > :19:23.laugh. She's had a few. Is he pissed or mental? Here she comes.
:19:23. > :19:28.That's my sister. She has got cerebal palsy. Remember we love
:19:28. > :19:32.nothing better than reading your petty gripes and sinister insults.
:19:32. > :19:39.If you can afford the electricity, you can always find us on the
:19:39. > :19:45.interweb, the Twitter and Facebook. It was heart warming to discover
:19:45. > :19:51.this week in an exclusive interview with Now, ma Call Me Dave and Sam
:19:51. > :19:58.Cam have managed to to programme a regular date night. I can picture
:19:58. > :20:04.them now, curled up together on their posh sofa, class of vintage
:20:04. > :20:11.Blue Nun Royal in hand and tuning in to This Week. Hello Prime
:20:11. > :20:21.Minister. Hi Sam. We've got a treat in store for you. Here is Quentin
:20:21. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:39.Knives are being sharpened in Westminster this week. Labour
:20:39. > :20:43.leader Ed Miliband should watch out for his gullet. It was meant to be
:20:43. > :20:51.the big announcement of the week - we are changing direction and all
:20:51. > :20:55.that. Come on Ed Balls where's the beef? There is it. However
:20:55. > :20:59.difficult it is for me, for some of my colleagues and our wider
:20:59. > :21:07.supporters, we can't make any commitments now for the next Labour
:21:07. > :21:10.Government will reverse tax rises or spending cuts and we won't.
:21:10. > :21:17.cuts, cuts. Labour now accepts the case for the Government's spending
:21:17. > :21:20.cuts. Have I got that right? I want to correct you on one thing - we
:21:20. > :21:25.continue to believe the Government is going too far and too fast in
:21:25. > :21:28.the cuts that they are making. on, I'm getting a bit confused. You
:21:28. > :21:34.don't accept the cuts, but you wouldn't reverse them? Have I got
:21:34. > :21:40.that right? What we are saying is that we oppose the cuts now. But it
:21:40. > :21:45.would be irresponsible three years from a general election for us to
:21:45. > :21:50.start making specific promise $about what cuts we would reverse -
:21:50. > :21:56.- promises about what cuts we would reverse. Public sector pay has to
:21:56. > :22:00.come into the deep freeze. That didn't half kebab the union leaders.
:22:01. > :22:05.Tough Ed, he's the leader, wants to be absolutely sure we got it
:22:05. > :22:09.absolutely clear, so here he was one more time - the man in control.
:22:09. > :22:12.I'm leading this party and making the difficult decision and if
:22:12. > :22:19.people don't like it, I'm afraid it is tough. We'll make the tough
:22:19. > :22:24.decisions. Face up to the tough choices. Tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
:22:24. > :22:28.we get it, he's tough, but not tough enough to stop David Cameron
:22:28. > :22:31.making mincemeat of him at Prime Minister's questions. Mr Miliband
:22:31. > :22:37.devoted all his questions to the rising unemployment figures, but
:22:38. > :22:40.the Prime Minister soon cut mim down to size. Last year -- him down
:22:40. > :22:44.to size. Last year he marched against the cuts, now he accepts
:22:44. > :22:51.them and yet today he's telling us he wants to spend more and borrow
:22:51. > :23:01.more. He's so incompetent he can't even do a you turn properly. -- U-
:23:01. > :23:10.
:23:10. > :23:15.turn properly. That's what I call a The Chancellor, George Osborne,
:23:15. > :23:18.trotted off to China and the Far East and while there he gave an
:23:18. > :23:22.interview and talked about expectations for growth. It seems
:23:22. > :23:26.there may be more trouble ahead. Anything else, darling? I don't
:23:26. > :23:31.know what next week's GDP number is going to be. Our independent
:23:31. > :23:36.forecaster, the OBR, has warned us that it may well be a negative
:23:36. > :23:42.number. That was their forecast in November, but they didn't forecast
:23:42. > :23:47.a recession. You don't have to tell me that the economic environment is
:23:47. > :23:51.very difficult. Mr Butcher Leveson, sorry, Lord Justice, has been
:23:51. > :23:54.continuing his work with his inquiry into press ethics. He took
:23:54. > :23:57.evidence from various Fleet Street editors, strung up like sausages,
:23:57. > :24:01.they were. They had no problem telling him where they think things
:24:01. > :24:07.have been going wrong. If you are the editor of a Murdoch paper and
:24:07. > :24:11.you see the Prime Minister's organising a slumber party for the
:24:11. > :24:15.wife at Chequers, oh, presumably that gives you unbounded confidence
:24:15. > :24:19.to do whatever you like. Or if the Prime Minister appoints an ex-News
:24:19. > :24:27.of the World editor to be his communications director, you must
:24:27. > :24:31.think, well, we're top of the pile. What coo stop uts? -- what could
:24:31. > :24:36.stop us? Is it true there war phone hacking going on among the showbiz
:24:36. > :24:39.team? No, not to my knowledge. say, "Not to my knowledge." Can I
:24:39. > :24:49.take it therefore it was possible it was going on, but hidden from
:24:49. > :24:51.
:24:51. > :24:55.you? It might well have been. look at those porky pies. In the
:24:55. > :25:01.Commons, that ageing ruemnepbt, Labour MP, Dennis Skinner, asked
:25:01. > :25:05.David Cameron if he would be going in front of the inquiry I will be
:25:05. > :25:09.delighted to appear at the Leveson Inquiry whenever I'm invited and
:25:09. > :25:12.I'm sure others will have the same view and I will answer all the
:25:12. > :25:17.questions when that happens. It is good to see the honourable
:25:17. > :25:22.gentleman on such good form. I often say to my children, no need
:25:22. > :25:32.to go to the Natural History Museum, come to the House of Commons at
:25:32. > :25:35.
:25:35. > :25:39.12.30. Education Secretary, Michael Gove, arguably one of Westminster's
:25:39. > :25:45.greater hams, let it be known in a letter to colleagues this week that
:25:45. > :25:49.he supports the idea of a new Royal yacht. To mark the Jean's Jubilee.
:25:49. > :25:54.This came up in the Commons. letter, which I wrote to the Prime
:25:54. > :25:59.Minister on 12th September, clearly stated that I agree of course that
:26:00. > :26:05.the project for a Royal yacht was one and I was quite clear in the
:26:05. > :26:09.letter, where no public funding should be provided. To be honest,
:26:09. > :26:14.trade at Westminster has been a little bit slow this week, but it's
:26:14. > :26:18.that time of year, but with Labour just opening up the economic
:26:18. > :26:28.discussions and with the coalition politics always juicy, things can
:26:28. > :26:29.
:26:29. > :26:33.only get better. They are dead these things, aren't they? No, they
:26:33. > :26:37.are not. Quentin Letts hamming it up at the Ginger Pig in Marylebone
:26:37. > :26:44.in London. More economic gloom this week, Michael. Should we now take
:26:44. > :26:47.it for granted we'll be back in recession? I think it's very strong.
:26:47. > :26:52.No, we can't, because the recession means two quarters of negative
:26:52. > :26:55.growth and we simply have no idea whether it will happen, but it's a
:26:55. > :27:01.possibility. Unemployment rose again in the broad measure, which
:27:01. > :27:07.is the more accurate one for the labour market surveys. It's a toxic
:27:07. > :27:11.issue for any Tory-led government. I don't quite get the sense yet
:27:11. > :27:15.that the public are giving them all the blame. It's not yet paying a
:27:15. > :27:19.huge political price. I think that's true and in any Kay for the
:27:19. > :27:22.economy to be in a healthy state we need fewer people working in the
:27:22. > :27:26.public sector and more in the private. Underneath some of the
:27:26. > :27:29.figures, some of what is happening in the private sector looks quite
:27:29. > :27:32.encouraging. There's been an increase in the number of self-
:27:32. > :27:35.employed people. Those people may or may not be making enough money
:27:35. > :27:39.to live on, because they are self- employed, so that's another reason
:27:39. > :27:46.why the figures are not at the moment as damaging as you might
:27:46. > :27:49.think. By the way, you say it's toxic, it is. However, Margaret
:27:49. > :27:52.Thatcher's government went on winning elections when unemployment
:27:52. > :27:58.was three million and when people were extremely upset about it
:27:58. > :28:03.indeed. You mentioned the moment of the week the speeches about
:28:03. > :28:07.reforming capitalism. Moral capitalism and compassionate and we
:28:07. > :28:13.don't want crony capitalism, but John Lewis capitalism. Do you think
:28:13. > :28:19.anybody is really listening? Well, I think the challenge will be
:28:19. > :28:22.whether or not you can translate that into something that means
:28:22. > :28:29.something to the public. Ed Miliband should be pleased when he
:28:29. > :28:33.raised this last September there was a certain amount of poo-pooing.
:28:33. > :28:39.Even I wasn't sure about talking about predators and producers, but
:28:39. > :28:43.he did set a stall out about vested interests and about the challenges
:28:43. > :28:47.of irresponsible capitalism. Others have now had to respond to that.
:28:47. > :28:52.Whilst David Cameron, with some justification could say he was
:28:52. > :28:55.talking about this several years ago, he wasn't talking about it
:28:55. > :28:59.until Ed Miliband put that back out there and now doubt he's doing that
:28:59. > :29:02.because there is a feeling in the polls and in focus groups from the
:29:02. > :29:08.public, that there is something not right in the way in which
:29:08. > :29:12.capitalism is working and there is an unease about it. Manifest by
:29:12. > :29:14.particular examples of unreasonable high levels of pay, but
:29:14. > :29:24.nevertheless something that politicians feel they need to
:29:24. > :29:25.
:29:25. > :29:29.All of the politicians are talking about the need to change cataclysm
:29:29. > :29:33.and it happens when Goldman Sachs announced a bonus pot of about �8
:29:33. > :29:38.billion. People like me say it is so much hot air, if that is still
:29:38. > :29:42.going on. It is broader than executive pay. It will be
:29:42. > :29:47.interesting to see what Vince Cable comes up with next week as part of
:29:47. > :29:52.his package. Ed Miliband spelled out a wider range of issues today.
:29:53. > :29:58.He calls it a rigged energy market. The energy market he presided over
:29:58. > :30:01.as energy secretary. That is a fair argument. I also went to see the
:30:01. > :30:07.Iron Lady this week and what was interesting was Margaret Thatcher's
:30:07. > :30:11.idea of creating a share owning democracy through privatisation.
:30:11. > :30:15.That never happened. Increasingly, monopoly power went back into that
:30:15. > :30:19.market. There is an argument that says the Government needs to step
:30:19. > :30:23.in, regulators need to step in to make the market work effectively in
:30:23. > :30:27.the way was intended to. The market is regulated, but it is a question
:30:27. > :30:32.of whether that is effective. Looking at energy prices, you do
:30:32. > :30:37.wonder. But why do you think Ed Miliband and Ed Balls made such a
:30:37. > :30:42.song and dance about the economic policy speeches? I am not clear -
:30:42. > :30:48.maybe you can enlighten me - where Labour policy has actually changed.
:30:48. > :30:52.In some ways, Labour policy has not changed. But you need to exemplify
:30:53. > :30:56.the policy Ed Balls spelled out in his conference speech about their
:30:56. > :31:00.needing to be discipline in public sector pay, us having to face up to
:31:00. > :31:08.the fact that we would inherit a deficit if we came back into power.
:31:08. > :31:14.We knew all that. Unita translated into something that means something.
:31:14. > :31:19.-- you need to. Two things happen this week. First, Ed Balls made
:31:19. > :31:26.explicit that Labour would not oppose the public sector pay
:31:27. > :31:32.discipline, the effective freeze. And secondly, got into a row about
:31:32. > :31:36.it with the unions. Did he need that? I do not think it was planned,
:31:36. > :31:40.but it was an important test as to whether Ed Miliband or Ed Balls
:31:41. > :31:45.would back off from what they had said, and neither of them did. That
:31:45. > :31:49.is quite important, if, in order for Labour to make progress, they
:31:49. > :31:53.need to get back to a position where they have economic
:31:53. > :31:59.credibility. And for all sorts of reasons, the time wasted while
:31:59. > :32:02.there was a leadership election, etc, it is now very difficult, it
:32:03. > :32:06.is the case that the public believes that the economic
:32:06. > :32:10.situation is the fault of the last Labour Government. So to be heard,
:32:10. > :32:14.to make progress, you have to win back economic credibility. Then you
:32:14. > :32:18.need to move on to the positive forward programme, developing this
:32:18. > :32:23.idea about growth, what is a modern industrial policy, but you have to
:32:23. > :32:29.be heard before you can develop that. It is useful to have a fight
:32:29. > :32:31.with the unions if you are a Labour leader. It is. This is a
:32:31. > :32:36.significant molar because Labour is saying it will not necessarily
:32:36. > :32:40.reverse the cuts, or the income tax rises. I think that concedes
:32:40. > :32:44.enormous ground. It means the Government have a much easier time
:32:44. > :32:47.for the next three years because of them will be challenged on this.
:32:47. > :32:50.Labour will not be able to promise at the election that it will
:32:50. > :32:53.restore the cuts. And it has another effect which is even more
:32:53. > :32:57.important, which is that when Government ministers face
:32:57. > :33:01.interviewers from the BBC or anyone else, if the interviewers are
:33:01. > :33:05.saying, why are you making these cuts, the response will always be,
:33:05. > :33:10.even the Labour Party is not saying it would restore these cuts. I
:33:10. > :33:13.think it is an immense step forward for the Government, actually.
:33:13. > :33:18.has certainly created confusion in the eyes of a lot of people. Even
:33:18. > :33:21.someone like me, page to follow these things, I am not clear where
:33:21. > :33:25.Labour stands. I tried to get it out of Andy Burnham this weekend he
:33:25. > :33:31.said, the only real change is that we now accept the public sector pay
:33:31. > :33:33.freeze. That is running to catch up with reality. It is legitimate to
:33:33. > :33:37.say that we oppose what is happening at the moment.
:33:37. > :33:41.Incidentally, we said you were cutting too far and too fast. And
:33:41. > :33:44.we have been proven right, because you are having to borrow more
:33:44. > :33:48.because too many people are unemployed and there is
:33:48. > :33:53.insufficient tax revenue and too much benefit payment. If they
:33:53. > :33:56.should be borrowing more, why not restore the cuts? It is right to
:33:56. > :33:58.oppose what is happening at the moment but to say that the point at
:33:58. > :34:04.which we will need to make decisions about what we are going
:34:04. > :34:07.to spend on his in three years. And the public is not silly. They know
:34:07. > :34:12.that any Government will need to make decisions on the basis of the
:34:12. > :34:16.situation that they find themselves in at that point. We knew that.
:34:16. > :34:20.do not restore economic credibility by saying we will make easy
:34:20. > :34:25.promises in order to win you over, because that will not work. I have
:34:25. > :34:31.not had Labour make an easy promise to me anyway, so it was not on the
:34:31. > :34:36.agenda. Anyway, we have run out of time. Very quickly, the royal yacht,
:34:36. > :34:39.a new royal yacht, done by public subscription, not public money,
:34:39. > :34:44.private money, a new royal yacht which the country would also used.
:34:44. > :34:52.Good or bad, yes or no? If we are going to have a royal yacht, the
:34:52. > :34:56.taxpayer should pay for it. He is not a politician any more! I do not
:34:56. > :35:01.think either the taxpayer all other charitable funding should pay for a
:35:01. > :35:09.royal yacht. What kind of countries as we will have a will yacht and
:35:09. > :35:13.4th not pay for it -- we will have a royal yacht and not pay for it?
:35:13. > :35:16.Now, when Boy George Osborne first claimed, with a straight face and a
:35:16. > :35:19.chunk of inherited wealth tucked safely in his bank account, that
:35:19. > :35:22."we're all in this together," we were surprised, not that he'd
:35:22. > :35:26.pinched the phrase from a song and dance routine in High School
:35:26. > :35:29.Musical, thank the Lord for Wikipedia for that fact. But we did
:35:29. > :35:32.doubt the Government's commitment to squeeze benefits until the pips
:35:32. > :35:35.squeaked. But with the introduction of Personal Independence Payments,
:35:35. > :35:40.so-called PIPS, and the scrapping of the Disability Living Allowance,
:35:40. > :35:43.that's exactly what many people now fear. So we turned to actress and
:35:43. > :35:53.comedian Francesca Martinez, and asked her to put society's attitude
:35:53. > :36:07.
:36:07. > :36:14.towards disabled people in this I've got cerebral palsy, but I call
:36:14. > :36:19.myself wobbly, because I think we should have more positive names for
:36:19. > :36:29.conditions. Like instead of schizophrenic, why don't we just
:36:29. > :36:31.
:36:32. > :36:37.say overly imaginative? And mentally retarded. Jeremy Clarkson.
:36:37. > :36:42.As a wobbly person, I am very worried about the planned benefit
:36:42. > :36:47.reforms. And disabled people everywhere are feeling the fear.
:36:47. > :36:57.Fear that their benefits, which go towards basic costs, will soon be
:36:57. > :36:58.
:36:58. > :37:03.taken away. The Government claim it is all about making the system work
:37:03. > :37:10.better for those in need. But they also claim that they have to cut
:37:10. > :37:20.their budget by 20%. Revealing their true motive, kicking half a
:37:20. > :37:21.
:37:22. > :37:29.million people off benefit. All of this talk of us being a drain on
:37:29. > :37:34.society confirms the stereotype that we are simply a burden. And
:37:34. > :37:43.public attitudes are hardening, with disability hate crime up 75%.
:37:43. > :37:48.And it's not a coincidence. Anyone can become disabled. And that's why
:37:48. > :37:53.we all need to fight these reforms. If the Government continues to
:37:53. > :38:03.target the most vulnerable, there are many more people like me who
:38:03. > :38:05.
:38:05. > :38:11.will take a stand, even if it is a wobbly one.
:38:11. > :38:14.Welcome to This Week. Thank you. am interested to hear you say
:38:14. > :38:17.public attitudes are hardening towards disabled people because in
:38:17. > :38:23.my lifetime I have seen a revolution in attitudes towards
:38:23. > :38:27.disabled people. And not just in what has been provided, and new
:38:27. > :38:36.rights conferred that they should have had, but they have a voice as
:38:36. > :38:41.never before, too. Well, they are still largely invisible in the
:38:41. > :38:46.media. And also, those hard-won rights that you are speaking about
:38:46. > :38:53.are much appreciated, but that's windier, because we are worried
:38:53. > :38:58.that those rights are being taken away by this Government. -- that is
:38:58. > :39:04.why we are here. Do you think, Michael, that there is a hardening,
:39:04. > :39:07.tough times, crackdown on welfare and less sympathy? No, I have not
:39:07. > :39:11.detected that change in attitude. I would have said the same as you,
:39:11. > :39:14.that there has been a revolution in attitude in a positive sense. There
:39:14. > :39:16.is a problem because the public believes there are many people
:39:16. > :39:21.claiming disability benefits who are not disabled, and that is
:39:21. > :39:23.probably the Government's view as well. I would have thought disabled
:39:23. > :39:28.people would want to be very vigilant and would want to be at
:39:28. > :39:31.least as concerned about that as the Government. I would like to
:39:31. > :39:39.contest both points. The first point is that disability hate crime
:39:39. > :39:49.is up by 75%, which really backs up the notion that attitudes are
:39:49. > :39:49.
:39:49. > :39:56.hardening. Also, fraudulent claims of disability benefit are 0.5%,
:39:56. > :39:59.which is the smallest out of all the benefits. So really that puts
:39:59. > :40:08.your assertion that there are people claiming this who don't need
:40:08. > :40:12.it, it really puts that into the negative. Saying fraudulent claims
:40:12. > :40:16.is putting it very strongly. I hope Jackie might agree with me that
:40:17. > :40:19.governments of both parties over a long period have found it
:40:20. > :40:22.convenient to does -- disguised unemployment has this ability.
:40:22. > :40:26.People they think are long-term unemployed, they have steered
:40:26. > :40:29.towards disability benefits because they are then not on the
:40:29. > :40:34.unemployment count. Many politicians have been complicit in
:40:34. > :40:40.this. A lot of people who received disability benefits are not, as you
:40:40. > :40:45.and I would understand them, disabled. Again, I dispute that.
:40:45. > :40:53.Even now, with the benefits in place, nearly half of all disabled
:40:53. > :40:59.people live in poverty. Four out of 10 disabled children live in
:40:59. > :41:03.poverty. These are astounding figures for a First World country.
:41:03. > :41:11.And they certainly do not reflect your view that, oh, disabled people
:41:11. > :41:14.have it easy. I have been researching... That is not my view.
:41:14. > :41:20.Well, you are certainly making a claim that there are lots of people
:41:20. > :41:26.out there who are claiming disability benefits who do not need
:41:26. > :41:31.them. In my experience, people use disability living allowance to
:41:31. > :41:35.cover the most basic costs. We are talking about getting around,
:41:35. > :41:44.feeding themselves, cleaning themselves, hiring care. They are
:41:44. > :41:47.not on the beach sunbathing. Jacqui, where are you want this? In my
:41:47. > :41:50.experience the only way to overcome a discrimination against you is for
:41:50. > :41:55.those people who are discriminated against to have a voice and speak
:41:55. > :41:58.up against it. That, I think, is why progress has been made on
:41:58. > :42:01.rights for disabled people. What has been interesting about the
:42:01. > :42:07.campaign in the last couple of weeks is that the use of social
:42:07. > :42:11.media has enables disabled people to bring their voices together and
:42:11. > :42:15.campaign in a way that I certainly have not seen for some time. That,
:42:15. > :42:20.I think, impacted on the House of Lords. It is part of the reason why
:42:20. > :42:22.there have been four defeats inflicted on the Government over
:42:22. > :42:27.the Welfare Reform Bill. And it is only by people having the sort of
:42:27. > :42:31.ways we are hearing this evening that change happens. Social media
:42:31. > :42:38.has allowed that to happen because many disabled people cannot go out
:42:38. > :42:42.and engage in public debate very easily. It is a huge asset. Yes.
:42:42. > :42:47.The people behind the Spartacus report have done incredibly well.
:42:47. > :42:53.But it is a real sad indictment that people who are sick and carers
:42:54. > :43:00.are having to put so much time and energy into defending their basic
:43:01. > :43:05.human rights. And picking up on what you said before, just briefly,
:43:05. > :43:11.this financial crisis we RN was caused by a very elite few at the
:43:11. > :43:17.top. And once again, the vulnerable in society are being made to pay
:43:17. > :43:21.for the greed of the top. So I think really the Government is
:43:21. > :43:25.morally disabled. Thank you for coming on tonight.
:43:25. > :43:28.That's your lot for tonight, folks, especially if you've been indulging
:43:28. > :43:34.in the infamous This Week drinking game. For those of you still
:43:34. > :43:38.playing, we leave you with a final shout out of Blue Nun. Try not to
:43:38. > :43:42.fall asleep on the sofa again. And for those of you unaware of the