:00:16. > :00:19.Tonight on This Week: Money, money, money, must be funny, in the rich
:00:19. > :00:22.man's world. As Britain's most infamous banker, Mr Fred Goodwin,
:00:22. > :00:25.keeps his pension but loses his knighthood, and his replacement,
:00:25. > :00:35.RBS boss Stephen Hester, is forced to turn down his �1 million bonus,
:00:35. > :00:37.
:00:37. > :00:40.are politicians playing a dangerous game? If I had a little money...
:00:40. > :00:43.The FT's top woman, and one of the few people who predicted the
:00:43. > :00:53.financial crash, Gillian Tett, takes a look at the rich man's
:00:53. > :00:53.
:00:53. > :00:58.world. This week I've been basher banker but beneath the escape
:00:58. > :01:01.quoting -- scapegoating, how do Government divide up resources and
:01:01. > :01:04.create a system that people think is fair?
:01:04. > :01:07.There are big bucks flying around this weekend, as America prepares
:01:07. > :01:16.for the Super Bowl, the BBC's Anita Anand gets kitted out and checks
:01:16. > :01:20.out Cameron's big-game tactics on Europe. Times have got ugly on the
:01:20. > :01:30.Westminster gridiron, with both leaders padding up, heads down and
:01:30. > :01:31.
:01:32. > :01:37.barging one another, with full force.
:01:37. > :01:40.Money doesn't necessarily keep the blues away. Former Blair spin
:01:40. > :01:45.doctor Alastair Campbell says it's time for politicians to come clean
:01:45. > :01:51.on the issue of depression. might be money, money, money for
:01:51. > :01:59.some, but if it is happiness you are after, never forget money can't
:01:59. > :02:09.buy you love. Meed ye- and mental health campaigner Ruby Wax is
:02:09. > :02:11.
:02:11. > :02:14.spreading the word. In a This Week world.
:02:14. > :02:17.Evening all. Welcome to This Week, the show that's proof beyond
:02:17. > :02:20.peradventure that you don't need a large performance-related bonus or
:02:20. > :02:29.a knighthood for banking services to be held in total contempt by the
:02:29. > :02:32.You just have to follow Question Time every Thursday night. Think of
:02:32. > :02:35.us as a diversion from reality, like politicians whipping up a
:02:35. > :02:41.lynch mob to strip one banker of his knighthood and another of his
:02:41. > :02:45.bonus. Yes, interest rates may be rock bottom, the pound has lost a
:02:45. > :02:49.quarter of its value, the Bank of England is printing money like
:02:49. > :02:54.there is no tomorrow, the Government is running massive
:02:54. > :02:58.deficits, and still there is no growth in the economy. But at least
:02:58. > :03:03.Fred "The Shred" has lost his knighthood and Stephen Hester isn't
:03:03. > :03:10.getting his bonus. Talk about bread and circuses. The Romans have
:03:10. > :03:14.nothing on our little Caesars. We also had London MP David Lammy's
:03:14. > :03:18.claim that the people who trashed our cities last summer might have
:03:18. > :03:22.shown more restraint if only their parents had been free to spank them
:03:22. > :03:24.when they were toddlers. Interesting, David. Then again, Mr
:03:24. > :03:27.Lammy was the Celebrity Mastermind contestant who thought Marie
:03:27. > :03:35.Antoinette won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1903. And that Henry
:03:35. > :03:39.VIII was succeeded by Henry VII! LAUGHTER Google it if you don't
:03:39. > :03:42.believe me. Speaking of those whose minds go blank as soon as they're
:03:42. > :03:45.asked a simple question, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two of
:03:45. > :03:49.Westminster's weakest links - the Dusty Bin and "bit of bully" of
:03:49. > :03:55.late night political chat. I speak, of course, of Michael Portillo and
:03:55. > :03:59.Alastair Campbell. Good evening to you both. Good evening. Michael,
:03:59. > :04:03.your moment of the week. I've blanked. No, the sending of Prince
:04:03. > :04:09.William to the Falklands I think, because it is immensely symbolic,
:04:09. > :04:13.that here we are at the 30th anniversary of the war. There is
:04:13. > :04:17.argy-bargy in the South Atlantic over the oil and the continuing
:04:17. > :04:20.Argentine claim to the islands. I think the British Government
:04:20. > :04:24.response is wonderfully robust. We are sending a member of the Royal
:04:24. > :04:28.Family there. We are putting up two fingers to Argentina. We are saying
:04:28. > :04:33.these people are entitled to self dem nation. Having fought a war for
:04:33. > :04:39.them 30 years ago there is simply no question even of debating the
:04:39. > :04:49.sovereignty of these islands. more important than William we are
:04:49. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :04:58.sending a �1 billion ship, which apparently can locate 300 incoming
:04:58. > :05:08.at once. This boat, it is actually a ship. You know what I mean.
:05:08. > :05:10.
:05:10. > :05:16.moved on since the 30 years since. I'm always wary about the in vun
:05:16. > :05:21.raability of ships. Alastair, your moment. It was the moment when I
:05:21. > :05:23.thought Ed Miliband had a direct hit on David Cameron, who looked
:05:23. > :05:27.extremely uncomfortable. You are talking about Tuesday afternoon?
:05:27. > :05:32.The Europe debate and his line that a veto is not for life it is just
:05:32. > :05:35.for Christmas. I always thought the veto was a ridiculous thing. We are
:05:36. > :05:43.going to talk about it later. don't think David Cameron thought
:05:43. > :05:50.it through and he is now having to backtrack and back-pedal and Ed is
:05:50. > :05:53.more confident, and I think he him at PMQs as well. It was his best
:05:53. > :05:56.performance to date as Labour leader.
:05:56. > :05:59.Bankers - doncha just love em'? Where would we be without them?
:05:59. > :06:01.Possibly up to �1 trillion better off for starters. But with the
:06:01. > :06:04.defenestration of Fred Goodwin and his knighthood, have we finally got
:06:04. > :06:06.our man, or are their other guilty men who appeased an out-of-control
:06:06. > :06:16.financial sector, who should be wary of pitchfork-wielding
:06:16. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.villagers bent on retribution? And probably a bit of redistribution as
:06:21. > :06:23.well! And has society got what it takes to deal with the need to play
:06:24. > :06:26.the blame game? The woman who spotted the crash coming, US
:06:26. > :06:36.managing editor of the Financial Times, Gillian Tett, is here with
:06:36. > :06:49.
:06:49. > :06:55.The theme of This Week has been bash a banker. Firstly Stephen
:06:55. > :07:00.Hester of RBS was forced to give back his bonus and then Sir Fred
:07:00. > :07:04.Goodwin became plain old Mr Goodwin. It is not equivalent of the bankers
:07:04. > :07:07.being put in the stocks as they were in the Middle Ages, but
:07:07. > :07:11.politicians of every stripe have been queuing up to pelt words at
:07:11. > :07:17.the bankers. But is it fair to be bashing bankers in this way? If you
:07:17. > :07:25.talk to people working in finance many say no, and many in business
:07:25. > :07:32.say no. Some said lay off the politicians - lay off the bankers
:07:32. > :07:39.for a bit. They said the bankers had contributed to the crisis but
:07:39. > :07:42.it was rating agencies, the public, and they should share the blame.
:07:42. > :07:46.There are lots of people who say we shouldn't let the bankers off the
:07:46. > :07:49.hook, because the reality is that although they weren't the only ones
:07:49. > :07:53.who created the crisis, they certainly got richer than many
:07:53. > :07:58.other people as a result. But perhaps the really interesting
:07:58. > :08:01.question to ask is why this war of words is erupting now. Is the
:08:01. > :08:05.answer is behind this battle about banking there's a fight for
:08:05. > :08:10.resources going on, in particular what people are asking is how are
:08:10. > :08:17.they going to divide Apple pie when that pie is stagnant, if not
:08:17. > :08:21.shrinking? Maybe it is not entirely fair to blame Sir Fred or now plain
:08:21. > :08:28.old Mr Goodwin for the problems. But the reality is that people are
:08:28. > :08:33.angry and they are looking for somebody to blame. As economys ale
:08:33. > :08:37.-- ail this year, the sense of anger and finger pointing is likely
:08:37. > :08:47.to rise. The question for politicians and all of us is once
:08:47. > :08:47.
:08:47. > :08:52.we get wrond the finger pointing can we actually find a fix? That
:08:52. > :08:58.was Gillian Tett. Welcome to This Week. Let me begin with a yes, no.
:08:58. > :09:06.Was it right that Mr Goodwin as he is now was stripped of his
:09:06. > :09:11.knighthood? Alastair Campbell. Totally relevant. Irrelevant?
:09:11. > :09:17.Totally relevant. The game was yes or no. As a politician I would have
:09:17. > :09:21.created a bit of a fuss. But does it matter? Not really. Mike Snell
:09:21. > :09:25.Yes. I would agree with Alastair but on balance I would say yes. It
:09:25. > :09:29.is not key issue though. Waut it right that Stephen Hester should
:09:29. > :09:34.effectively have been bullied by politicians and public opinion, the
:09:34. > :09:40.threat of a vote in Parliament as well, into giving up his �1 million
:09:40. > :09:46.bonus? No. Was it right that he didn't take the whole of his bonus?
:09:46. > :09:51.Yes. Was it right that he was bullied? No. I will Just Say No.
:09:51. > :09:58.I'll play the game. You are very good. I want to come back next year.
:09:58. > :10:03.I don't. I'm on materialier one. Sorry Andrew. And just to be boring,
:10:03. > :10:06.I would say no as well. He was brought in to do a difficult job.
:10:06. > :10:11.He's done it April well and changing the rules halfway through
:10:11. > :10:16.his contract is not good. And not for the first time the This Week
:10:16. > :10:22.panel is all over the place. Politicians, they may play to the
:10:22. > :10:27.public at times, and perhaps they did with the Hester bonus, but they
:10:27. > :10:32.can't ignore public opinion about bankers and public opinion about
:10:32. > :10:36.bangers remains very strong. Even as 2008 disappears into history.
:10:36. > :10:39.Absolutely. People are angry. I think there are two factors here.
:10:39. > :10:47.Firstly they are angry because there hasn't been a sense of
:10:47. > :10:54.closure. You've, in the sense that you've seen people put into prison
:10:54. > :10:58.and if you believe in capitalism you should not only be rewarded for
:10:58. > :11:04.success but suffer the consequence of failure. The Americans are
:11:04. > :11:08.better at that. They certainly are. In the savings and loans crisis,
:11:08. > :11:14.2,000 people have been prosecuted or put into jail. How many have we
:11:14. > :11:19.had in Britain? Hardly any. And there's been no closure, no sengs
:11:19. > :11:24.of resolution. The public, if you look at Iraq, a lot of people are
:11:24. > :11:29.angry about Iraq There is the Chilcot Inquiry. Phone hacking,
:11:29. > :11:36.there is the Leveson Inquiry. And on banking, are we seriously saying
:11:36. > :11:42.that because Fred Goodwin lost his knighthood that's the end of it?
:11:42. > :11:47.The rectors are in denial. The politicians are in -- the reactors
:11:47. > :11:56.are in denial. The politicians are in denial. I haven't seen any of
:11:56. > :11:59.them up before a it?-style inquiry where they are forced to account
:11:59. > :12:03.for themselves. You think they still don't get it. And they don't
:12:03. > :12:09.get the basic economics. The reason they are making huge profits is
:12:09. > :12:12.that they are undercapitalised. The taxpayer subsidised them. Therefore
:12:12. > :12:16.because their profits are artificial, their bonuses ought to
:12:16. > :12:21.be trimmed back to the level that would be payable if their profits
:12:21. > :12:27.represented the amount of capital they would need to maintain. The I
:12:27. > :12:30.suspect their proof whites be zero or below. You mix with these major
:12:30. > :12:36.bankers. You've just come from Davos. Do they really still note
:12:36. > :12:40.get it? Here is an interesting thing. Once a year the World
:12:40. > :12:45.Economic Forum asks the attendees what is the biggest thing that will
:12:45. > :12:49.pose a threat to global stability this year. This year for the first
:12:49. > :12:54.time they said income disparities, inequality and problems with
:12:54. > :12:59.inequity. They are getting scared. Did they collect another �5 million
:12:59. > :13:03.bonus? They've seen Occupy Wall Street, the demonstrations in St
:13:03. > :13:06.Paul's. The Arab Spring, tangible evidence of the degree to which
:13:06. > :13:10.these pressures are starting to essentially create instability.
:13:10. > :13:14.think that's a good thing. I think Michael is right, they've got
:13:14. > :13:20.themselves into the mind set that part of their package is a multi-
:13:20. > :13:23.million pound bonus. If it is not deserved they don't get it. It is
:13:23. > :13:27.slowly fall into place that there is such a thing as public service,
:13:27. > :13:32.even in the private sector, and that you can get very well paid,
:13:32. > :13:36.did you a good job but you stop taking these ludicrous telephone
:13:36. > :13:39.numbers at the end of the year as a matter of course. The people
:13:39. > :13:42.providing the capital, the shareholders have been driven into
:13:43. > :13:49.poverty. It's a small bunch of employers who are making off with
:13:49. > :13:55.all the money. Who haven't missed a penny of their own money. I haven't
:13:55. > :13:59.seen anyone who can tell me whether the profits of RBS was paid in a
:13:59. > :14:02.dividend to shareholders. For the last two or three decades it's been
:14:02. > :14:06.taken for granted that bankers earned a lot of money. The last
:14:06. > :14:10.time that mentality ruled was in the Wall Street Crash just before
:14:10. > :14:16.it in 1920s in America. What happened after that was after 1929
:14:16. > :14:22.for a few years the bankers carried on being paid a lot. And then it
:14:22. > :14:27.began to readjust. For three or four decades after World War II
:14:27. > :14:37.bankers were paid like other pronerbls. Big changes in mentality
:14:37. > :14:38.
:14:38. > :14:40.British banks have been bailed out. We were through a period of
:14:40. > :14:43.relatively prosperity. At the people at the bottom and middle
:14:43. > :14:45.have been doing relatively OK. The people at the top of the sword and
:14:46. > :14:49.they've thought people at the bottom and middle sort of not
:14:49. > :14:52.complaining too much means they can carry on soaring. These people are
:14:52. > :14:56.complaining a lot. Gillian is right, they're beginning to get it.
:14:56. > :15:01.Whether they get it to the extent they do enough about it, I doubt.
:15:01. > :15:05.The coalition, Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne, they've kind of tried to
:15:05. > :15:11.run with the pack on this. They've made a lot of speeches about it.
:15:11. > :15:16.But when push came to shove did it not turn out to be grandstanding?
:15:16. > :15:20.This panel here agreed 100% that we shouldn't be telling Stephen Hester
:15:20. > :15:23.how much you should be paid. That is the problem. In the end, the
:15:23. > :15:26.Conservative majority in the Government believes in capitalism
:15:26. > :15:29.and it believes in free enterprise t doesn't believe the Government
:15:29. > :15:34.should tell people how much they're paid. In the end politicians are
:15:34. > :15:39.desperate to find somebody to deflect the anger and bankers are
:15:39. > :15:46.very convenient. We are heading twaordz huge -- towards huge cuts
:15:46. > :15:52.and - exactly. The scapegoat thing, Fred Goodwin, I did end up feeling
:15:52. > :15:57.sorry for Fred, the guy has been richly humiliated, no matter how
:15:57. > :16:00.much his pension is worth. His life is effectively over. What David
:16:00. > :16:04.Cameron should do is actually set up a proper truth and
:16:04. > :16:08.reconciliation, a proper reckoning. What went wrong. Through the whole
:16:08. > :16:11.period so the politicians - to be fair politicians are held to
:16:11. > :16:15.account but the regulators, and the bankers and the ratings agencies
:16:15. > :16:20.and all the rest are put there in front of a serious distinguished
:16:20. > :16:24.panel and asked to account for themselves. Cow say that the
:16:24. > :16:30.banking crisis has been important than the hacking scandal, to the
:16:30. > :16:33.country. Cow indeed. -- you could indeed. On the other side of the
:16:33. > :16:37.Atlantic is it the same banker bashing? It's interesting what's
:16:37. > :16:40.happening right now, there has been a commission to look into it, it
:16:40. > :16:44.wasn't widely effective. There has been a lot of anger towards bankers,
:16:44. > :16:48.not the same degree of anger about the level of money they're earning.
:16:48. > :16:53.Frankly, it's bigger than anything we have seen Stephen Hester earn.
:16:53. > :16:58.What there is, is tkproeing awareness of this issue about
:16:58. > :17:04.fairness. If you look at the... presidential elections will be
:17:04. > :17:09.about that. It's good news for Obama this. It helps. We have come
:17:09. > :17:14.to an end but I don't think this has come to an end, Mr Bob
:17:14. > :17:17.Diamond's bonus is coming down, and half a billion for RBS workers
:17:17. > :17:21.whose names are not called Stephen. We shall see. Gillian, thank you
:17:21. > :17:25.for being with us. Now, I am told Mr Goodwin sleeps
:17:25. > :17:31.like a baby these days, he wakes up every two hours and cries. Before
:17:32. > :17:35.you join him, stick stick around longer because coming up comedy
:17:35. > :17:38.grand Dame Ruby Wax on why politicians don't come clean about
:17:38. > :17:46.depression F that doesn't lift your spirits, nothing will, especially
:17:46. > :17:50.not the joie de vivre black hole otherwise known as our interweb
:17:50. > :17:53.page, or our Twitter and hur 100 billion dollar Facebook. It's
:17:53. > :17:59.chilly here in Westminster. I know the BBC are cutting back but they
:17:59. > :18:07.seem to have forgotten us souled tucked newspaper basement studio
:18:07. > :18:10.55B. Not a warm Blue Nun Horlics in sight. We need call me Dave's
:18:10. > :18:15.little flushed red cheeks to warm us up. They were flaming in the
:18:15. > :18:21.Commons this week as he battled to stop the return of his alter ego
:18:21. > :18:30.Flashman, little Eddie's mocking appeared at times to be just a tad
:18:30. > :18:40.too much for Flashman to bear. Talking of alter egos's here's
:18:40. > :18:57.
:18:57. > :19:00.Anita with hearse to give us a So this week it was all about not
:19:00. > :19:05.getting kicked in your end zone as all the party leaders got padded up,
:19:05. > :19:09.put their heads down and aimed for that all-important slam dunk at the
:19:09. > :19:13.bankers, no, wait a minute that's the wrong sport, isn't it?
:19:13. > :19:23.might need this, Anita. Thank you, Ben. This is so going to ruin my
:19:23. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:28.hair! Now bizarrely the RBS quarterback
:19:28. > :19:31.Hester didn't hear the baying of the crowds when it came to matter
:19:31. > :19:36.of his bonus even though his own coach, the chairman himself, went
:19:36. > :19:40.without his �1.4 million. Previously out of form Captain Ed
:19:40. > :19:45.Miliband finally hit his stride, coming up with a rather ingenious
:19:45. > :19:52.blocking defence, a vote in the House of Commons. Stephen Hester
:19:52. > :19:56.was totally zone blitzed. We have got to have responsibility
:19:56. > :20:01.in the boardroom when everybody else is living standards are being
:20:01. > :20:11.squeezed. That's why I say tax the bankers' bonuses and give ordinary
:20:11. > :20:14.
:20:14. > :20:18.employees a say on top pay in every Well, team Cameron were now now
:20:18. > :20:22.under pressure. How do they show they too were tough on the bankers?
:20:22. > :20:26.How is this for a play? What do you is you fine the biggest hunk of
:20:26. > :20:32.meat on the tkpwreupbd iron and take him and chuck him on the fire.
:20:32. > :20:35.Step forward the player formerly known as Sir Fred The Shred, now
:20:35. > :20:39.days just Shred to you and me. The forfeiture committee stripped him
:20:39. > :20:42.of his title and the Government were pleased. We have a special
:20:42. > :20:46.case here of the Royal Bank of Scotland symbolising everything
:20:46. > :20:49.that went wrong in the British economy over the last decade. Fred
:20:49. > :20:55.Goodwin was in charge, I think it's appropriate that he loses his
:20:55. > :21:01.knighthood. Ed was now totally in the game and messing for a fight.
:21:01. > :21:04.We have now heard it all, because he says that the class war against
:21:04. > :21:14.the bankers is going to be led by him and his cabinet of millionaires.
:21:14. > :21:18.I don't think it's going to wash, Time out!
:21:18. > :21:21.David Cameron had some time out in Brussels and while he was there he
:21:21. > :21:24.found that he had to explain to some of his team that he was
:21:24. > :21:29.actually on the right side, just before Christmas he took the
:21:29. > :21:33.applause of the crowds for vetoing an EU treaty. But now he found
:21:33. > :21:38.himself on the defensive having to explain his latest manoeuvres.
:21:38. > :21:43.is a treaty outside the EU. We are not signing it, we are not
:21:43. > :21:50.ratifying it. We are not part of it. It places no obligations on the
:21:50. > :21:54.United Kingdom. Cameron had his players support, it really was
:21:54. > :21:59.touch down for Miliband. With this Prime Minister a veto is not for
:21:59. > :22:03.life, it's just for Christmas. Cameron persuaded his players to
:22:04. > :22:10.get behind him. But what about the yellow team? What were they doing?
:22:10. > :22:14.May I begin by praising the Prague mat teufpl -- pragmatism of the
:22:14. > :22:18.Prime Minister, although I confess to being somewhat surprised that my
:22:18. > :22:21.support for that isn't shared throughout the Government benches.
:22:21. > :22:25.Cracks in the coalition lineout may have been pushed together for now,
:22:25. > :22:31.but what happens if they open in the future? Just how vulnerable
:22:31. > :22:35.does that leave Downing Street? # Watch your step...
:22:35. > :22:38.Also putting in a notable performance this week was the wide
:22:38. > :22:42.receiver Gripper Gove, appearing before the education select
:22:42. > :22:49.committee. He was asked about his plans to do away with vocational
:22:49. > :22:54.subjects at school. But how exactly are we going to do without GCSE
:22:54. > :22:58.scrimmageology? Ultimately, if you say to a student we the state are
:22:58. > :23:01.going to value this qualification as an equivalent, but then the
:23:01. > :23:06.colleges to which they apply and the employers with whom they're
:23:06. > :23:14.seeking a job say no, then that child will understandably feel
:23:14. > :23:20.betrayed and let down. Maybe the questions to hash tag
:23:20. > :23:24.tweeters were proving tricky. What did Michael do? He did what players
:23:24. > :23:27.normally do when it gets a bit sweaty. He called time out. Can I
:23:28. > :23:35.ask a favour. You kindly provided me with water, will you excuse me
:23:35. > :23:40.for a second? I will come back and carry on answering questions. Can
:23:40. > :23:44.you suspend for a sitting? I will be back in a minute. So, post-match
:23:44. > :23:48.report thep. Young Miliband had a good week but he needs to have a
:23:48. > :23:57.longer run than that if he wants to prove that he was actual lay good
:23:57. > :24:01.draft pick. What about he clearly needs to Max protect. He He and no,
:24:01. > :24:09.Andrew, I have absolutely no idea what I just said.
:24:09. > :24:12.Warriors? One, two, three, warriors!
:24:12. > :24:15.Anita was never seen again after that, you know, there she was
:24:15. > :24:22.training with the London Warriors. Let's return to our warriors here
:24:22. > :24:27.in the studio. Are you able to tell us what Mr
:24:27. > :24:32.Cameron actually vetoed and if a week later or two weeks later he
:24:32. > :24:37.still vetoing it? Well, he is absolutely not part of what the
:24:37. > :24:41.rest of - what the eurozone is now negotiating. That's not a veto.
:24:41. > :24:45.Well, it stopped it being a treaty of the European Union. But it's now
:24:45. > :24:50.going to be covered by all the institutions and the European Court
:24:50. > :24:55.of justice? And Britain is not a part of it. No, but we didn't need
:24:55. > :24:58.to veto it not to be a part of it. We haven't vetoed it, we have opted
:24:58. > :25:04.out, that's different from a veto. Well t may be different but it has
:25:04. > :25:08.the same effect of this not being a treaty. A treaty... He described it
:25:08. > :25:12.as a treaty, a treaty agreement. That's what Mr Cameron described it
:25:12. > :25:18.as in parliament. A treaty in the European Union has to by definition
:25:18. > :25:21.include all 27 members. He was in the common say -- Commons saying he
:25:21. > :25:25.supports this treaty. He said he supported the treaty. A couple of
:25:25. > :25:28.months ago he was using a veto to stop a treaty so I was confused as
:25:28. > :25:31.to what treaty he was talking about. And said the Commission, the
:25:31. > :25:34.buildings of the European Union and the European Court could not be
:25:35. > :25:38.used. He's gone back on that as well. He is allowing for the
:25:38. > :25:42.possibility they might be used and that is indeed a change of tone,
:25:42. > :25:48.but that... A big change. But that is something that does not include
:25:48. > :25:52.us, is funmently important. We were never going to be part of any move
:25:52. > :25:57.towards fiscal union. That just wasn't going to happen. So, I don't
:25:58. > :26:03.understand where the veto comes in. It wasn't a veto. We were never
:26:03. > :26:07.going to sign up to a fiscal union treaty. Well, if we weren't what
:26:07. > :26:11.are you surprised about? I don't understand - if we were never -
:26:11. > :26:15.that's exactly what didn't happen. What are you surprised about?
:26:15. > :26:21.don't understand where the word veto comes in. I am not sure it's
:26:21. > :26:26.even his word. The reason he suddenly soared ahead in the polls
:26:26. > :26:30.is because of this veto he magically wielded when he became Mr
:26:30. > :26:33.Strongman, and the nonsense said at the time and at the time sensible
:26:33. > :26:36.sane people said what is he actually vetoing and now he seems
:26:36. > :26:41.to have come to the House of Commons and himself said I didn't
:26:41. > :26:46.actually veto anything. Final word on this, I need to move on. We are
:26:46. > :26:50.floundering here. Britain has parted from the European Union, we
:26:50. > :26:54.are headed on different tracks. That's a different point. It's much
:26:54. > :26:57.more important. He is now suggesting that we are not. I just
:26:57. > :27:05.cannot understand... Let's agree to disagree there. Wye like to say to
:27:05. > :27:09.our viewers if any of you see a veto on the loose tonight... Don't
:27:09. > :27:14.approach it. Let me know and I will take it round to Downing Street, I
:27:14. > :27:17.think it's escaped. Isn't it dangerous for Mr Cameron for the
:27:17. > :27:22.Lib Dems to be happier about this than the Tories. I thought it was
:27:22. > :27:26.amazing that watching that. I make the same point again, that a really
:27:26. > :27:32.important moment in history has been arrived at in which Britain no
:27:32. > :27:36.longer automatically sighs -- says yes late in the day to what happens.
:27:36. > :27:40.Britain has said yes. The thing the Europeans are doing is completely
:27:40. > :27:44.absurd. We are Europeans. You are a European, I am a European, Andrew
:27:44. > :27:48.is a European. I am a Spaniard. know you are. You are a European.
:27:48. > :27:52.don't have to be lectured about that. You are talking about the
:27:52. > :27:58.Europeans as though we are not part. Let him finish the point. There is
:27:58. > :28:01.such a different between Britain and continental Europe. If we are
:28:01. > :28:05.not so your Government would have taken us into the euro, in
:28:05. > :28:11.recognition of the fact we are different we are not in the euro.
:28:11. > :28:15.There is more trouble, for example, this IMF maybe making a request for
:28:15. > :28:19.more money, which is clearly destined for Europe, that's going
:28:19. > :28:28.to cause, well Mr Balls is saying he might not want to support that
:28:28. > :28:38.and a lot of Tory backbenchers. knows when Britain may not need the
:28:38. > :28:38.
:28:38. > :28:42.IMF money. What do you think,... can't necessarily avoid it, you
:28:42. > :28:46.know. We are at the mercy of the markets. Except the Americans have
:28:46. > :28:49.made it clear they will not pony up a penny. It's an election year.
:28:49. > :28:54.There is no way Mr Obama can be seen to be bailing out rich
:28:54. > :28:59.Europeans. Now the Americans account for 17% of any whip around
:28:59. > :29:04.F they don't come up, nobody's going to come up. But understand
:29:04. > :29:08.this also, that sterl something a little -- sterl something a little
:29:08. > :29:13.isolated country. Thank God for the moment we can borrow more cheaply,
:29:13. > :29:15.that may not always be the case. It was extraordinary the body
:29:15. > :29:18.language there, the difference between Osbourne to Cameron on one
:29:18. > :29:22.side and Clegg on the other scratching his leg and his head and
:29:22. > :29:24.the rest of it. Nick Clegg doesn't know what to do now. Tkwoe Prime
:29:24. > :29:32.Minister's question every week on the Daily Politics and he doesn't
:29:32. > :29:36.know whether to smile or cheer or Chris Huhne, speaking of Liberal
:29:36. > :29:39.Democrats. We are going to know tomorrow morning at ten o'clock, he
:29:39. > :29:45.is going to be told at nine, if he is going to be charged over this
:29:45. > :29:49.speeding thing. We don't know if he is. But if he is, I emphasise the
:29:49. > :29:53.word if, for all his lawyers watching tonight. If he is charged,
:29:53. > :29:57.does he have to resign from the Cabinet? I assume that he won't be
:29:58. > :30:02.charged. If he were, he would have to resign. I'm not sure he would
:30:02. > :30:07.have to resign. All that would change is that he is charged. I
:30:07. > :30:11.think it is odd that the CPS is calling this press conference to
:30:11. > :30:15.explain what is relatively a minor offence, even though I accept it is
:30:15. > :30:25.from a Cabinet Minister. It is a serious offence but my point is
:30:25. > :30:27.
:30:27. > :30:34.that it is not as if he is up for Fred "The Shred" offences. You went
:30:34. > :30:38.from mild to moderate. Let Lord Campbell finish. I will never be
:30:38. > :30:42.Lord Campbell. He will continue to deny the charge. Politically the
:30:42. > :30:48.situation may change but I have a funny feeling if he is charged that
:30:48. > :30:54.Cameron will try and tough it out. If he is charged and then cleared,
:30:54. > :31:00.two ifs there, does he come back into the Cabinet? Why don't we wait
:31:00. > :31:06.until ten in the morning. Because if he is charged we won't be able
:31:06. > :31:09.to talk about a lot of this. If the CPS is holding a press conference I
:31:09. > :31:14.think it is because they want to explain why they are not charging
:31:14. > :31:19.him. If he is charged and he resigns or is made to resign,
:31:20. > :31:25.should there be a big or a small reshuffle? I would bring in a small
:31:25. > :31:31.Lib Dem to fail the small gap. agree with that. That's the great
:31:32. > :31:37.thing other coalition. Nearly all Lib Dem MPs will be Ministers by
:31:38. > :31:43.the end of five years. I was told they would be brought in to limit
:31:43. > :31:47.the change. A good week for Ed Miliband, the second in a row. So
:31:47. > :31:50.why did David Miliband write this article in the New Statesman?
:31:50. > :31:55.can't understand the fuss about this. This is the problem with the
:31:55. > :32:02.way politics is debated in Britain. I think David has written a really
:32:02. > :32:07.intect, sensible piece. I also think -- a really intelligent,
:32:07. > :32:10.sensible piece. I don't buy this David is try to undermine Ed at off.
:32:10. > :32:14.The thing is the Labour Party does need a big debate about itself and
:32:14. > :32:19.the country and why we rost the last election. I think David's got
:32:19. > :32:26.some very good pointers about where we go from here. I more or less
:32:26. > :32:30.agree but it is naive to think that the fratricide won't hang over the
:32:30. > :32:37.Labour Party. The public will move on pretty quickly. Now, readers of
:32:37. > :32:42.the nation's most esteemed scientific journal, the Daily Mail,
:32:42. > :32:50.enjoyed another of its peer reviewed articles on Monday, with
:32:50. > :32:59.those can still afford it booking their holidays abroad, the Mail
:33:00. > :33:04.christened it Happy Monday and managed to drag up an "academic".
:33:04. > :33:08.We like junk suicide oi scientists but it got us thinking what
:33:08. > :33:12.politicians could do to help deal with the blues. We asked our own
:33:12. > :33:19.ray of sunshine, that is Alastair Campbell, to put depression in this
:33:19. > :33:23.week's spotlight. One in four of us will have a
:33:23. > :33:29.direct experience of mental illness at some time in our lives. A survey
:33:29. > :33:33.has suggested that MPs it could be even higher and yet very few public
:33:34. > :33:37.figures talk openly about any mental health problem. I'm not
:33:37. > :33:42.being judgmental about that. I totally understand why a nurse or a
:33:42. > :33:46.teacher filling in a job application form says, do you know
:33:46. > :33:52.what, I won't put down my depression, that I had a breakdown
:33:52. > :33:57.or am on medication. But that reinforces the stigma and taboo. It
:33:57. > :34:05.is part of the job of people in public life to break down that tab.
:34:05. > :34:10.I understand why an MP might worry, that they might become a stigma if
:34:10. > :34:14.they were open about their health. From my perspective, on this I find
:34:14. > :34:18.the public and the media more understanding than a lot of MPs
:34:18. > :34:21.might think. I don't support much that David Cameron does but I do
:34:21. > :34:25.support the idea of putting happiness and wellbeing at the
:34:25. > :34:29.centre of policy making. But that means you have to deliver. It means
:34:29. > :34:35.you really do have the put happiness and wellbeing at the
:34:35. > :34:41.centre of an agenda. That means meant at health being at the top.
:34:41. > :34:46.There used the to be a taboo about cancer. Now it is mental health. I
:34:46. > :34:51.want society to be as open about our mental health as we are about
:34:51. > :34:54.our physical health. If a few MPs came out and talked openly about
:34:54. > :34:59.their mental health, it would help them and I think it would help
:34:59. > :35:07.their constituents. Alastair Campbell in his back
:35:07. > :35:14.garden. Who is in our back garden? It is Ruby Wax. Thank you. I didn't
:35:14. > :35:18.realise. Is there a clear definition of mental illness or
:35:18. > :35:23.depression? I think depression is misleading. It implys that you are
:35:23. > :35:29.in a sad mood. It has nothing to do with the tact that your dog ran
:35:29. > :35:34.away or your baby left town. This is the sensation like you are in a
:35:34. > :35:38.coma but you are awake. There's a depletion of personality. It is an
:35:38. > :35:44.unfortunate word India I think it is the word they use is a physical
:35:44. > :35:47.ailment. There is no question when did you have a mental illness
:35:47. > :35:52.notice your haircuts your blood. It's a disease of the brain. Just
:35:52. > :35:54.like you would have a tumour, there's a glitch in all those
:35:54. > :35:59.neurons so it is ridiculous the people say it's your imagination.
:35:59. > :36:03.What did you make of the point Alastair was making in his film
:36:03. > :36:08.there? What is in it for a politician to admit this? We have a
:36:08. > :36:12.pretty unforgiving media in this country. The Prime Minister of
:36:12. > :36:16.Norway left work for a little while and came back and the whole country
:36:16. > :36:20.applauded that. If you are talking about one in four, let's think how
:36:20. > :36:26.many politicians have this. I would rather know about it than them
:36:26. > :36:31.being loose at the in the job. there are that number, one in four,
:36:31. > :36:35.there are 600 and something, so you are talking about over 130 MPs.
:36:35. > :36:39.Given that number, clear he they don't think there is anything in it
:36:39. > :36:43.for them, because they don't come forward. I don't know if they
:36:43. > :36:46.realise there's medication, that we aren't in the dark ages any more.
:36:46. > :36:51.Suddenly we are identified with being possessed with the devil.
:36:51. > :36:55.There is medication. You can go to work. I've had it. I haven't had it
:36:55. > :37:00.in five years. You wouldn't do this with any other illness. The point
:37:00. > :37:05.about MPs, I know there are MPs in Parliament who get very bad
:37:05. > :37:08.depression and who've other mental illnesses. They do feel it might be
:37:08. > :37:13.used against them, but I think they are wrong. I think they would find
:37:13. > :37:18.both their constituents and the media, as I said in the film I
:37:18. > :37:22.never had any problem with the media. They get it. You mentioned
:37:22. > :37:28.the Norwegian Prime Minister, the leader of the Liberal Party in
:37:28. > :37:32.Canada, he came out and talked about his own depression. Stephen
:37:32. > :37:36.Harper, the Prime Minister made an amazing speech about depression
:37:36. > :37:41.after one of his MPs killed himself. It is part of their job to break
:37:41. > :37:44.down taboos and stigma. Do you think it is feasible in this
:37:44. > :37:49.country for the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer or
:37:49. > :37:53.the Foreign Secretary or the Defence Secretary to say they are
:37:53. > :37:57.suffering from depression? Not at that high level. Can I see a
:37:57. > :38:04.backbench MP doing that. I think there've been cases of that.
:38:04. > :38:10.Churchill. Yes. We didn't know about it at the time. I disagree,
:38:10. > :38:14.Michael. There is an interesting book coming out from John biff fin
:38:14. > :38:19.writing about his time in Government, where he went to see
:38:19. > :38:24.Mrs Thatcher and told her he had very bad depression and he wanted
:38:24. > :38:29.to resign from the Cabinet. And to her credit, Mrs Thatcher said she
:38:29. > :38:32.wouldn't have a word of it. It is not that big a deal. I disagree
:38:32. > :38:36.with Michael. I think if a top flight politician came out and said
:38:36. > :38:41.you know what, every now and again I have to take time off, it
:38:41. > :38:45.wouldn't a problem. We don't trust them anyway, so by saying yes I'm
:38:45. > :38:49.part of the human race would endear a lot of the population. You've got
:38:49. > :38:54.to break this Stig match. Forget about celebrities. People always
:38:54. > :38:58.say drue to be a come Tokyo have depression? I said do you know one
:38:58. > :39:03.in four people who are funny? We are talking about the little single
:39:03. > :39:08.mothers up in the middle of nowhere who are so ashamed. This isn't just
:39:08. > :39:11.about mental health Politics you have to pretend to be completely
:39:11. > :39:16.healthy. I remember when Tony Blair had to have a little heart
:39:16. > :39:20.procedure, he looked for a way of distracting attention and he came
:39:20. > :39:25.one the idea of announcing that he wouldn't run for a fourth term.
:39:25. > :39:30.That's how he distracted attention from his heart problem. People
:39:30. > :39:35.worry that the other side, spin doctors like your former self,
:39:35. > :39:40.would make political capital out of it. Gordon Brown was described as
:39:40. > :39:45.psychologically flawed by somebody. He may well have been. He was also
:39:45. > :39:49.asked on television when whether he took antidepressants, if you
:39:49. > :39:54.remember, by Andrew Marr. At the time there was a big deal about
:39:54. > :39:59.that. I remember at the time saying that Andrew was wrong to raise it
:39:59. > :40:03.the way he did but we need to get to a situation where people can be
:40:03. > :40:10.open. I think if somebody tried to use it against a politician white
:40:10. > :40:14.rebound. Definitely. We had one, bankers are not fashionable but the
:40:14. > :40:19.banker at Lloyds. He stepped down for a while because he was
:40:19. > :40:22.suffering from stress and is now back. That probably might not have
:40:23. > :40:27.happened 20 or 30 years ago.Ening think people are coming forward.
:40:27. > :40:30.They have to realise that there is no distinction between mental and
:40:30. > :40:37.physical illness. It is something physical in your brain. You
:40:37. > :40:42.wouldn't say to somebody with Alzheimer's, you they Ronald Reagan
:40:42. > :40:48.was forgiven for having Alzheimer's. We have to move on. The sympathy
:40:48. > :40:51.certainly came forth. I have a quiz. Nothing like political intrigue to
:40:51. > :40:57.get the juices going in Westminster, so we loved this week's revelation
:40:57. > :41:02.that in their continued attempt to appear mildly human, Ed Balls and
:41:02. > :41:06.Yvette Cooper have been keeping up their favourite lasagne dish for
:41:06. > :41:13.Labour's moves and shapers. It could be a plot to make estroet be
:41:14. > :41:21.the next Labour leader. We thought it was time to dig out our
:41:21. > :41:27.politicians and their favourite foods quiz. 3 It is pretty easy.
:41:27. > :41:34.Which politician's favourite food was peas? John Major. Well done,
:41:34. > :41:43.Ruby. According to Spitting Image it was. Which politician's
:41:43. > :41:52.favourite food was jelly beans? John Major? No. Whose favourite
:41:52. > :41:57.food was a Tony roasted songbird. President Mitterrand. And who told
:41:57. > :42:04.the magazine his preferred food was fish and chips and then said it was
:42:05. > :42:10.fresh fettucine garnished... Tony Blair. You probably wrote all of
:42:10. > :42:15.that rubbish. A first. You got every question right. That means,
:42:15. > :42:23.there he is, the little smiler there. Anyway, that's your lot for
:42:23. > :42:27.tonight, folks. But not for us. Oh, no. It is open mic night at
:42:27. > :42:35.Annabels and we've been give an slot on the bill somewhere between
:42:35. > :42:41.a reformed ugly rumours and Lembit Opik's infamous harmonica dance. We
:42:41. > :42:46.leave you with a taster thanks to So sky Arts first love programme