0:00:00 > 0:00:02Come on everybody. Let's get The Muppets back on TV. Tonight, it's
0:00:02 > 0:00:05time to play the music, it's time to light the lights, it's time to
0:00:05 > 0:00:07meet the Muppets, on the This Week Show tonight. (The Muppets' Theme
0:00:07 > 0:00:12Tune) Starring everyone's least favourite terror suspect, Abu
0:00:12 > 0:00:20Qatada - should he stay or should he go? All-singing and dancing
0:00:20 > 0:00:26civil rights campaigner, Shami Chakrabarti has her say. So much
0:00:26 > 0:00:32for dodgy deals in the desert. Abu Qatada can't be deported, so give
0:00:33 > 0:00:36him a fair, criminal trial. A different sort of Muppet Show in
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Parliament, as the Kermit and Miss Piggy of Westminster slug it out
0:00:40 > 0:00:44over NHS reform. The Observer's Andrew Rawnsley joins in the fun. A
0:00:44 > 0:00:49lot of Tories are whispering in the wings that Andrew Lansley ought to
0:00:49 > 0:00:52be Yanked off the stage. But this week David Cameron declared he
0:00:52 > 0:00:57would stick with his embattled Health Secretary and his
0:00:57 > 0:01:00contentious NHS plans. And Charles Dickens might not quite be in the
0:01:00 > 0:01:07Muppets' league, but we'll still be celebrating the great man with
0:01:07 > 0:01:13another great star of film and stage, Charles Dance. How the
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Dickens am I going to download the whole of Great It's time to get
0:01:14 > 0:01:24things started on the most sensational, celebrational,
0:01:24 > 0:01:33Muppetational This Week Muppet Show tonight. Expectations on to this?
0:01:33 > 0:01:35Evening all. Welcome to This Week - the late-night punchline to a not-
0:01:35 > 0:01:38very-funny joke. So, we must congratulate a comedian called Tim
0:01:38 > 0:01:41Vine, who won an award for the year's funniest joke -
0:01:41 > 0:01:45conjunctivitas.com - a site for sore eyes! Boom boom! Not bad, Tim.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Clearly, when it comes to plumbing the depths we have a rival. Yet if
0:01:48 > 0:01:52only the judges had cast their ears towards Westminster this week,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55they'd have heard some of the best one-liners in the business. What
0:01:55 > 0:01:58about Home Secretary, Theresa May, who told MPs she wanted to deport
0:01:58 > 0:02:04radical preacher, Abu Qatada, so he is not in the country when the
0:02:04 > 0:02:06Olympics come?! As if the principal security threat isn't Al Qaeda
0:02:06 > 0:02:12terrorism, but Mr Qatada rocking up at the synchronised swimming semi-
0:02:12 > 0:02:19finals! Or what about the Downing Street source who claimed Health
0:02:19 > 0:02:22Secretary, Andrew Lansley, should be taken out and shot? Don't tell
0:02:22 > 0:02:26me that didn't have the Cabinet in stitches and calling for more while
0:02:26 > 0:02:29reaching for their Purdeys! And what about cheeky Boy George
0:02:29 > 0:02:32warning of the dangers of - wait for it- anti-business politics,
0:02:32 > 0:02:41just as the blood of Goodwin and Hester is scrubbed from Call-Me-
0:02:41 > 0:02:43Dave's innocent little hands? Yet surely the honours must go to
0:02:43 > 0:02:46barrel-of-laughs Disability Minister, Maria Miller, who told
0:02:46 > 0:02:49the unemployed that, despite the state of the economy, there isn't a
0:02:49 > 0:02:59shortage of jobs, but rather a lack of appetite for some of the jobs
0:02:59 > 0:03:02available. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05Speaking of those who are laughed at behind their backs, I'm joined
0:03:05 > 0:03:09on the sofa by two of Westminster's most stand-up guys, the funny, ha
0:03:09 > 0:03:17ha and funny, peculiar of late- night chat, I speak, of course, of
0:03:17 > 0:03:23Michael Portillo and, as always, #manontheleft, Alan AJ Johnson.
0:03:23 > 0:03:28Welcome to you both. Good to see you. Moment of the week, Andrew?
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Mark Mardell, who is the America editor for the BBC, had a report on
0:03:31 > 0:03:36Tuesday in which he said the White House believes that Israel will
0:03:36 > 0:03:38atake Iran through the course of this year, possibly as early as the
0:03:38 > 0:03:43spring, certainly before the presidential election. The
0:03:43 > 0:03:49reasoning is that before long the nuclear weapons programme in Iran
0:03:49 > 0:03:52will be beyond reach. But also that if you were to launch an attack
0:03:52 > 0:03:57before the election both presidential candidates would have
0:03:57 > 0:04:02to support Israel in an election situation, so it is good a time.
0:04:02 > 0:04:07Because of the Jewish vote? Yes, of course. So, this appears to be the
0:04:07 > 0:04:11betting. Now, if this happens and of course this may lure the United
0:04:11 > 0:04:15States in, but it is a transformational occurrence if it
0:04:15 > 0:04:19happens. Iran would be expected to retaliate and then there is Saudi
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Arabia and possibly against the fleet in Bahrain. It will make most
0:04:23 > 0:04:29of the things we are talking about at the moment pretty much like a
0:04:29 > 0:04:38Sunday pinnic. Barack Obama needs that like a hole in the head.
0:04:38 > 0:04:43Candidates tend -- incumbents tend to do well in at -- at a war
0:04:43 > 0:04:48situation. Alan in Chris Huhne's resignation from the Cabinet. He's
0:04:48 > 0:04:58confident. He's strong. He is capable of holding an argument in
0:04:58 > 0:05:00
0:05:00 > 0:05:04Cabinet. He's one of only two trained economists in the Cabinet.
0:05:04 > 0:05:10I can't see how they can replace that kind of political skill, which
0:05:10 > 0:05:13I think Chris Huhne had, so I think it is bad news for them. We found a
0:05:13 > 0:05:21friend of Chris Huhne. I always wondered who it was. Well done,
0:05:21 > 0:05:28Alan. There you go. Now we know all the quotes come from in the
0:05:28 > 0:05:30newspapers. It was you. You heard it first. Now, pressure is mounting
0:05:30 > 0:05:34on the Government to remove terror suspect and all-round rabble-rouser
0:05:34 > 0:05:36Abu Qatada from the UK, despite a ruling from the European Court of
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Human Rights effectively blocking them from doing so. Qatada is set
0:05:39 > 0:05:42to be freed on bail within days, after a judge declared his
0:05:42 > 0:05:45detention without trial could no longer be justified. His movements
0:05:45 > 0:05:49will be seriously restricted, but in three months he could be free to
0:05:49 > 0:05:54do what he wants. So, how do we rid ourselves of turbulent clerics with
0:05:54 > 0:06:04a penchant for terror? Director of the Liberty human rights group,
0:06:04 > 0:06:07
0:06:07 > 0:06:13Shami Chakrabarti, is here with her take of the week. Churchill said
0:06:13 > 0:06:20the use of instruments of torture can never be regarded by any decent
0:06:20 > 0:06:25person synonymous with justice. The European Court of Human Rights,
0:06:26 > 0:06:30that was his legacy agrees. I detest Abu Qatada's views, but he
0:06:30 > 0:06:35should neither be deported to torture nor to jord wan to stand
0:06:35 > 0:06:41trial on the basis of evidence tortured out of others. -- Jordan.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44British suspects can't be deported. Ask Britons who have been
0:06:44 > 0:06:50imprisoned abroad. Your pass fort shouldn't affect your right to a
0:06:50 > 0:06:54fair criminal trial. Abu Qatada has been detained on and off without
0:06:54 > 0:06:59any criminal charge for nearly a decade. Now that the court of human
0:06:59 > 0:07:02rights has ruled against the deportation to Jordan, he's been
0:07:02 > 0:07:07granted bail. But with a 22-hour curfew and conditions that would
0:07:07 > 0:07:12put many prisons in the shade. The Home Secretary rightly said the
0:07:12 > 0:07:15best place for a terrorist is behind bars. But what about the
0:07:16 > 0:07:24obvious question - why hasn't he been charged with any criminal
0:07:24 > 0:07:29offence here in the UK? We have all heard from he is accused of.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34Inciting murder here and around the world. We have heard the tapes of
0:07:34 > 0:07:38his delivering he's sermons and found in the homes of people
0:07:38 > 0:07:41associated with the gravest crimes and we are told he was convicted in
0:07:41 > 0:07:44his absence of a terrorist conspiracy in Jordan. The
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Government expects us to trust the assurances of a Middle Eastern
0:07:48 > 0:07:57kingdom where torture is routine and where his co-defendants have
0:07:57 > 0:08:03already been tortured. The court is right not to trust such a country,
0:08:03 > 0:08:08but conspiracy have long been grave offences here, punishable with up
0:08:08 > 0:08:13to life in prison, so why have all the authorities not brought a
0:08:13 > 0:08:19single one of these charges in an English court and allowed 12
0:08:19 > 0:08:25ordinary people to decide his fate? Remember the so-called short cuts
0:08:25 > 0:08:29attempted after the horror of 9/11? In the US Guantanamo Bay and
0:08:29 > 0:08:33extraordinary rendition and here we have secret commissions and
0:08:33 > 0:08:38internment without charge or trial, rather than relying on the justice
0:08:38 > 0:08:42system admired the world over. By closing down open justice, flirting
0:08:42 > 0:08:45with torturers and negotiating dodgy deals in the desert, don't we
0:08:45 > 0:08:54become just a little more like those who are trying to change our
0:08:55 > 0:08:58way of life? Anyway, the shortcut wasn't worked, so why not return to
0:08:58 > 0:09:05an old-fashioned fair trial at the Osama Bin Laden? It might just
0:09:05 > 0:09:13deliver both the moral authority and security that is eluded
0:09:13 > 0:09:19governments since the war on terror began? I think lots of people would
0:09:19 > 0:09:24like to see that for real. I would have come in and released you. You
0:09:24 > 0:09:29have heard what was said. Should by ignore the court and deport him
0:09:29 > 0:09:33anyway, Michael? No, I think Shami puts her finger on the problem. It
0:09:33 > 0:09:37is believed that this man is inciting hatred and violence. These
0:09:37 > 0:09:41are criminal offences. It is extraordinary that he can't be
0:09:41 > 0:09:45charged. How is it that John Terry can be charged with a hate crime
0:09:45 > 0:09:50and he cannot be? He has been? Jail six-and-a-half jails and on and off
0:09:50 > 0:09:54the best part of ten years. That is a problem in a democratic society.
0:09:54 > 0:09:59How can you keep people locked up for year after year if they've not
0:09:59 > 0:10:05been charged? I think the court has delivered a wake-up call. It's all
0:10:06 > 0:10:10very well the Prime Minister being on the phone to Jordan, but to the
0:10:10 > 0:10:14King of Jordan, but the problem that will arise is he will be sent
0:10:14 > 0:10:17back for trial, using evidence to be acquired in torture was obvious
0:10:18 > 0:10:24as the case proceeded. Why is it that only after the findings are
0:10:24 > 0:10:29against us is the Prime Minister on the phone to the King? Alan, why
0:10:29 > 0:10:36hasn't he been tried? Because we have been trying to deport him,
0:10:36 > 0:10:43where the crimes were. He was implicated in blowing up the
0:10:43 > 0:10:47American school in the Jerusalem Hotel in 1998 in Jordan and he's a
0:10:47 > 0:10:52Jordanian citizen. He came here on a false passport. Illegally.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55have been trying to deport him. I disagree with Michael on this,
0:10:55 > 0:10:59because what the Government were quite right to do, this government
0:10:59 > 0:11:05and previous government, was to seek the extradition. The European
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Court knocked it back under article 3. That is the torture. There was
0:11:08 > 0:11:14then a memorandum of understanding reached with Jordan and other
0:11:14 > 0:11:17countries, which took a long time to get, that was fine in the House
0:11:17 > 0:11:21of Lords. The House of Lords looked at the implication that some of the
0:11:21 > 0:11:26witnesses might have been tortured and decided that the human rights
0:11:26 > 0:11:30in this country became above that. When it - now, the good thing for
0:11:30 > 0:11:33the Government about the judgment this week - the latest judgment by
0:11:33 > 0:11:36the court in Europe, is they accepted that memorandum of
0:11:36 > 0:11:39understanding. Article 3 is no longer in contention. They brought
0:11:39 > 0:11:45in article 6 for the first time ever as I understand it. Article 6
0:11:45 > 0:11:48being the right to a fair trial, on this basis that the witnesses, that
0:11:48 > 0:11:54the House of Lords looked at and rejected, that they may be
0:11:54 > 0:11:57subjected to torture. The criticism of the court is they changed the
0:11:57 > 0:12:01goal post. They laid out under article 3, you can't send someone
0:12:01 > 0:12:06to a country where they might be tortured, so the British Government
0:12:06 > 0:12:09did a deal with Jordan. The European Court said fine, but now
0:12:09 > 0:12:15you can't have a trial where someone who is giving evidence
0:12:15 > 0:12:22might have been being tortured?. This is convoluted. The answer is,
0:12:22 > 0:12:26how can you trust the regimes where torture is routine? The European
0:12:26 > 0:12:36Court was happy that happened. You called it a dodgy deal in the
0:12:36 > 0:12:39
0:12:39 > 0:12:43They were not happy with the legal system where he'd be convicted.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47they moved the goalposts. I don't think they did because this was the
0:12:47 > 0:12:52claim that was before them. You don't need to be a rocket scientist
0:12:52 > 0:12:56or a Supreme Court justice to realise that you are in trouble
0:12:56 > 0:13:00when you do deals with Libya or Jordan. Our Supreme Court accepted
0:13:00 > 0:13:05it? I probably disagreed with that decision, but sometimes you
0:13:05 > 0:13:09disagree with the judge. European court have accepted that.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11We are where we are. You said yourself, if you don't mind me
0:13:11 > 0:13:17saying so, that criminal prosecution was not being pursued
0:13:17 > 0:13:21all these years because we thought we'd deal with it by deportation. I
0:13:21 > 0:13:26think that is... Committed to where he came from. This has been going
0:13:26 > 0:13:31on for a decade. You don't think there was a twin track approach
0:13:31 > 0:13:35going on in your department that so many people had inhabited. I think
0:13:35 > 0:13:40this is a weakness because it's asserted repeatedly that this man
0:13:40 > 0:13:43is extremely dangerous in Britain because he incites hatred and crime
0:13:43 > 0:13:49and he advocates killing and massacre and all these sorts of
0:13:49 > 0:13:53things. If this is true, these are criminal offences. Very serious,
0:13:53 > 0:13:57punishable by life. By the way, we also assert the right in this
0:13:57 > 0:14:02country to try people for grave crimes committed elsewhere even in
0:14:02 > 0:14:05Jordan. If you are right and I'm wrong and I'm being too purist,
0:14:06 > 0:14:09even if you would rather do deportation, in cases like this,
0:14:09 > 0:14:15it's going to be very difficult. This isn't just a minor driving
0:14:15 > 0:14:18charge. The point is, Alan Johnson, that given it's taken so long to
0:14:18 > 0:14:22deport him and we still haven't, and he's been banged up all this
0:14:23 > 0:14:29time, would it not have made more sense for us to have begun
0:14:29 > 0:14:32proceedings against him here? That might be where or what has to
0:14:32 > 0:14:37happen in the end. Was the Government right to try and deport
0:14:37 > 0:14:41him yes, the actual crimes he committed preceded the legislation
0:14:41 > 0:14:45on hate crimes that came in. I'm sorry, that's wrong in law. We
0:14:45 > 0:14:52are not talking about hate crimes, we are being told this is
0:14:52 > 0:14:56incitement to murder, a offence punishable... No, legislation that
0:14:56 > 0:15:02would allow us to put him on trial in this country for what happened
0:15:02 > 0:15:06in another country came after 9/11. But, the issue is, we should try, I
0:15:06 > 0:15:09mean if he's tried here, he has to be imprisoned here, it's right for
0:15:09 > 0:15:12the Government to try to deport him to where the evidence is, where the
0:15:13 > 0:15:15witnesses are and where the crimes took place and up until the
0:15:15 > 0:15:18decision of the European Court of Human Rights, that seemed to be
0:15:19 > 0:15:23going in the right direction. people certainly have had enough of
0:15:23 > 0:15:29this, there's a poll in if papers tomorrow, 57% of people think
0:15:29 > 0:15:35ignore the European court, send him back, 27% do another deal with
0:15:35 > 0:15:40Jordan, send him back, only 7% agree with you? I do appreciate
0:15:40 > 0:15:45that the way this debate has run, it's all about nationality. But 7%
0:15:45 > 0:15:49is such a small amount. You argue your case day in day out on
0:15:49 > 0:15:54television, radio and so on and do it with tkpraet distinction, yet
0:15:54 > 0:15:59only 7% agree with you -- great. When you ask people whether they
0:15:59 > 0:16:02think torture is right or wrong, 97% agree with me. When you ask
0:16:02 > 0:16:06people whether they think everyone should have a right to a fair trial,
0:16:06 > 0:16:10they agree with many. When you have difficult cases, unattractive
0:16:10 > 0:16:15poster boys for a human rights argument, people will be irritated.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19I certainly wouldn't want my liberty to be dependent on an
0:16:19 > 0:16:23opinion poll. It has to be more fundamental things than that. I've
0:16:23 > 0:16:29been convinced this person is a very dangerous person because I've
0:16:29 > 0:16:35been told repeatedly that he incites murder and mayhem. What I
0:16:35 > 0:16:40can't understand if, -- what I can't understand is, if that's not
0:16:40 > 0:16:43the case, why isn't he being tried. Would you settle for him being able
0:16:43 > 0:16:49to walk the streets free? I think if the evidence is what we are told
0:16:49 > 0:16:54it is, he should be charged. know that evidence can't be shown
0:16:54 > 0:16:58in court. It was shown at the immigrations appeals commission in
0:16:58 > 0:17:03closed session. It can't be put in open session. Why? The problem for
0:17:03 > 0:17:05the Government is - for all the reasons you know, we can't use
0:17:05 > 0:17:10interceptors' evidence. Sorry, we are told there are tapes in
0:17:10 > 0:17:14existence of him inciting murder. I've seen this stuff. The reason
0:17:14 > 0:17:19why it was put in closed session in the immigration appeals tribunal is
0:17:19 > 0:17:27that it would reveal sources. It would reveal sources. I find it
0:17:27 > 0:17:37difficult to see that... I find it difficult, I am explaining to you
0:17:37 > 0:17:47
0:17:47 > 0:17:50why.... The problem for the Government now is, if these bail
0:17:50 > 0:17:52conditions run out, the thing we all agree. Which They Probably Will.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55This man is dangerous. When the bail conditions run out, he can't
0:17:55 > 0:17:57use a mobile phone or the Internet, he has to be restricted into where
0:17:58 > 0:18:00he goes. When that runs out Because we haven't got control orders, this
0:18:00 > 0:18:03Government foolishly accepted the orders. Within that runs out, he
0:18:03 > 0:18:05will be able to use a mobile phone and the Internet and will be tiebl
0:18:05 > 0:18:07go wherever he likes because control orders have been abolished.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Five minutes ago you said we didn't try to prosecute him because we
0:18:10 > 0:18:12were right to spend ten years deporting him, now you are saying
0:18:12 > 0:18:15we can't prosecute him because of the intercept evidence. A control
0:18:15 > 0:18:20order would have been the right thing if we were still in a
0:18:20 > 0:18:26position where we couldn't deport him or put him on trial. Shami, a
0:18:26 > 0:18:30general point, you have placed huge emphasis on this guy's human rights.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36No-one, even his own lawyer says this is a bad guy, he believes evil
0:18:36 > 0:18:41things, he's incited violence, but you put his mew man rights on one
0:18:41 > 0:18:45side, a lot of people will say what about our human rights not to be
0:18:45 > 0:18:50blown up by people like him. Doesn't that matter? Our human
0:18:50 > 0:18:54rights are all interconnected. Everybody on the planet has some
0:18:54 > 0:18:58basic human rights just because they are alive. If you start
0:18:58 > 0:19:02carving it up on the basis of nationality... By so much weight to
0:19:02 > 0:19:09his and so little to the other 60 million of us. I understand where
0:19:09 > 0:19:14that comes from, he's a foreigner, be shot of him, even if it's to...
0:19:14 > 0:19:18But... That's the argument being put against me, based on his
0:19:18 > 0:19:22nationality he should be deported. If we carve up human rites on the
0:19:22 > 0:19:24basis of nationality, rather than humanity, that is the road to
0:19:24 > 0:19:29Guantanamo Bay where you are because you are British, French,
0:19:29 > 0:19:34Australian, not American. If every country in the world does this, all
0:19:34 > 0:19:38of us will be deprived of our human rights as well. I said you would
0:19:38 > 0:19:43have the last word and you did. Thank you very much. Because Chris
0:19:43 > 0:19:48Huhne no longer needs to be up in the morning and can stay up late
0:19:48 > 0:19:55main lining Blue Nun and watching this-week, doesn't mean you can't
0:19:56 > 0:19:59too, so stick with us us, adding some suavity to the sofa, Charles
0:19:59 > 0:20:05Dance will be explaining why Charles Dickens still matters. If
0:20:05 > 0:20:08you would like to inform us of one yof your bouts of indignation that
0:20:08 > 0:20:17you will never ever be watching this show ever again, remember, you
0:20:17 > 0:20:23can do so on our interwebsite. Or you can do it on or on Facebook.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27It's been said in some quarters, in the BBC Director General's quarters
0:20:27 > 0:20:34that you have to be a muppet to watch This Week. Just as well he's
0:20:34 > 0:20:37standing down soon. There are no muppets here, apart from these two.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42I apologise! We decided to break the habit of a lifetime and raise
0:20:42 > 0:20:52the tone this evening. Here is Andrew Rawnsley with his round-up
0:20:52 > 0:21:01
0:21:01 > 0:21:05Before it became one of our greatest novelists, Charles Dickens
0:21:05 > 0:21:08earned his living as a Parliamentary sketch writer,
0:21:08 > 0:21:13perhaps it was observing politicians that inspired him to
0:21:13 > 0:21:17create the smooth villains, the well-meaning but hopeless
0:21:17 > 0:21:22characters and the various grotesques that populate his books.
0:21:22 > 0:21:30I'm cold to the bone. Let's repair to that tavern before we catch a
0:21:30 > 0:21:36chill. Morning, ma'am. Things have been
0:21:36 > 0:21:38looking Bleak House for Andrew Lansley. It's been the gloss sip of
0:21:38 > 0:21:43the town that Number Ten's lost confidence in the Health Secretary
0:21:43 > 0:21:50and his widely opposed plans for the NHS so. Young master Miliband
0:21:50 > 0:21:58sensing a chance to advance his own fortunes raised the topic at PMQs,
0:21:58 > 0:22:04only to find that old Lansley had some life in him yet.
0:22:04 > 0:22:12The Health Secretary shouting from a saiden tear position, nice to see
0:22:12 > 0:22:15him here, Mr Speaker. -- saiden tear position. Some distance away,
0:22:15 > 0:22:23I notice. The Prime Minister says he wants the voice of doctors to be
0:22:23 > 0:22:31heard in the NHS. Why doesn't he listen to them? It's always good to
0:22:31 > 0:22:35get a member from happy families from the Right Honourable member.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39That the Prime Minister may fancy himself a gentleman of quality, but
0:22:39 > 0:22:47he could do with freshening up his material. You can always tell that
0:22:47 > 0:22:51young master Cameron is in a spot of bother when he tries to make
0:22:51 > 0:22:56merry like young master Miliband's brother. Still, for better or worse,
0:22:56 > 0:23:00a lot of Tory MPs privately fear it will turn out to be for the worse.
0:23:00 > 0:23:10The Prime Minister's recommitted himself to both his Health
0:23:10 > 0:23:11
0:23:12 > 0:23:17Secretary and the NHS plan. In Syria, it's been a tale of two
0:23:17 > 0:23:21cities, an appearance of calm in Damascus as the Russian Foreign
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Minister flew in, slaughter on the streets in the besieged rebel city
0:23:25 > 0:23:30of Homs. The Foreign Secretary cranked up the rhetoric in
0:23:30 > 0:23:34condemnation of President Assad. This is a doomed regime, as well as
0:23:34 > 0:23:38a murdering regime. There is no way it can recover its credibility
0:23:38 > 0:23:44internationally or with its own people. The UN Security Council's
0:23:44 > 0:23:48failure to agree a resolution does not signal the end of our efforts
0:23:48 > 0:23:52to end the violence in Syria. Majesty's Government speaks loudly
0:23:52 > 0:23:56about Syria but doesn't carry much of a stick, even if there were
0:23:56 > 0:24:02Security Council sanctions for actions, no-one in the Cabinet
0:24:02 > 0:24:05currently thinks it's practical or even desirable to try a Libya-style
0:24:05 > 0:24:10intervention. Dickens started his career as a
0:24:10 > 0:24:12journalist which meant he had few illusions about the British Press.
0:24:12 > 0:24:19The Leveson Inquiry, which looks likely to turn out to be longer
0:24:19 > 0:24:23than the collective works of the great man, heard from a combative
0:24:23 > 0:24:29Paul Daker Editor in Chief of the Daily Mail who contended that
0:24:29 > 0:24:32celebrities who court publicity deserve the scrutiny of the inky
0:24:32 > 0:24:36fingers. Celebrity chefs, sports people make a lot of money by
0:24:36 > 0:24:46revealing their lives to the public, I believe newspapers should be
0:24:46 > 0:24:48
0:24:48 > 0:24:54given some right to look into their lives. Do you mean morally? As my
0:24:54 > 0:24:58friend Mr Skweers would say, conk your appetites, my dear, and you've
0:24:58 > 0:25:03conquered human nature. You know what, I think I'll have another one.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06The News of the World is shelling out more compensation to hacking
0:25:06 > 0:25:10Vic tums and Scotland Yard has admitted to breaking the law by not
0:25:10 > 0:25:16warning them earlier. John Prescott surely a character
0:25:16 > 0:25:20who has escaped from a Dickens novel was bursting with indignation.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23Frankly they were liars, that's what comes out of it, that
0:25:23 > 0:25:28basically they had that evidence, they recorded the names but every
0:25:28 > 0:25:31time I kept asking, they said you are not on the list. There are
0:25:31 > 0:25:36worse things in the world than having your phone hacked. The
0:25:36 > 0:25:40passions of Dickenss were aroused by the social injustice he awe
0:25:40 > 0:25:46around him in Victorian Britain. Back in our world, Labour Klammered
0:25:46 > 0:25:51for a bigger tax on bankers Kibo us ins -- clamoured. If the claim that
0:25:51 > 0:25:58we are all in it together is to mean anything, the re-introduction
0:25:58 > 0:26:01of this tax is a must, it would create 100,000 youth jobs and 25
0:26:01 > 0:26:05affordable homes. The boss of Network Rail did volunteer to give
0:26:05 > 0:26:10up his bonus this week, well, he did once his arm had been twisted
0:26:11 > 0:26:19by the Government, but the bankers, well, we know their favourite line
0:26:20 > 0:26:24is from Oliver Twist. Please, Sir, can I have some more?!
0:26:24 > 0:26:31Andrew Rawnsley there and the Jerusalem tavern dressing the way
0:26:31 > 0:26:34MPs used to and I think should again. Michael, all this
0:26:34 > 0:26:38speculation about would David Cameron stick with the Health
0:26:38 > 0:26:42Secretary, Andrew Lansley. The fact is, he had to in tend, didn't he,
0:26:42 > 0:26:46it's gone too far, he can't junk him? Has to and had to I think.
0:26:46 > 0:26:51Andrew Lansley I think will survive and the Bill will I think. I mean,
0:26:51 > 0:26:55the great difficulty with this is that nobody other than Andrew
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Lansley and maybe two or three others, nobody else understands
0:26:58 > 0:27:03what it's all about. That is a really difficult position to get
0:27:03 > 0:27:08into. That's part of the Health Secretary's problem because it
0:27:08 > 0:27:11explains why there's so littlele enthusiasm for this legislation
0:27:11 > 0:27:14even on the Tory benches because they don't understand what it's
0:27:14 > 0:27:17meant to be doing? One thing worthwhile from the Government's
0:27:17 > 0:27:21point of view is the thing it denies most strongly, the
0:27:21 > 0:27:25introduction of competition which I think would make a difference. In
0:27:26 > 0:27:29the last round of concessions made by the Government, that was all
0:27:29 > 0:27:32watered down. Competition was no longer to be brought to the fore.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36It's not exactly excluded but I think that is the thing that the
0:27:36 > 0:27:42Government actually wants to get out of it. It's remarkable. We are
0:27:42 > 0:27:46told in tomorrow's Guardian that Conservative home, which is a very
0:27:46 > 0:27:50influential Conservative website among the grass roots is, coming
0:27:50 > 0:27:55out tomorrow against the reforms, against the Bill which is quite
0:27:55 > 0:27:59important in its right, we are also told indeed they are saying thaef
0:27:59 > 0:28:04been encouraged to do so by three Conservative Cabinet Ministers --
0:28:04 > 0:28:07they've been encouraged to do so by three Conservative Cabinet
0:28:07 > 0:28:12Ministers. If I was in the Cabinet, I would be wondering. It's
0:28:12 > 0:28:15difficult to drop the Bill and your Secretary of State, particularly as
0:28:15 > 0:28:19Cameron and Clegg seem to have been beguiled by this without
0:28:19 > 0:28:21understanding it. But if it goes on, and this is what the three Cabinet
0:28:21 > 0:28:24Ministers will be saying, everything that happens in the
0:28:24 > 0:28:28National Health Service up to the next election will be blamed on the
0:28:28 > 0:28:33Bill and give than there's a very important effort to make �20
0:28:33 > 0:28:36billion worth of savings, there will be plenty happening and also,
0:28:36 > 0:28:39there's going to be a Spaghetti Junction now of different
0:28:39 > 0:28:43commissioning groups because of the concessions that have been made and
0:28:43 > 0:28:49the stop and start. No-one is against reform but Andrew, he's a
0:28:49 > 0:28:52technocrat, he cares about the NHS but he's a technocrat. He's
0:28:52 > 0:28:57produced this unfathomable Bill that means that it's just left
0:28:57 > 0:29:02everyone in a state of confusion. Never mind about anyone else, the
0:29:02 > 0:29:07Health Service journal, BMJ, Nursing Times, joint editorial,
0:29:07 > 0:29:09they never get involved in politics, they are all saying it's a mess.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13That's the strategic mistake, I suppose, this is happening at a
0:29:13 > 0:29:18time when health spending which had grown hugely under Labour, has had
0:29:18 > 0:29:22to come to a halt or it's a marginal increase in real terms
0:29:22 > 0:29:26almost nothing. That will cause problems in the Health Service, but
0:29:26 > 0:29:30rather than be able to blame that the spending spree had to stop and
0:29:30 > 0:29:40that would probably have happened under Labour as well, it will be
0:29:40 > 0:29:41
0:29:41 > 0:29:46Yes. They are meant to make a gain and it's ambitious. By the sound of
0:29:46 > 0:29:49the rest of the British economy, it's not particularly spectacular.
0:29:49 > 0:29:55Of course, Andrew Lansley would argue that in order to make those
0:29:55 > 0:29:58productivity increases you need to have reform. But he couldn't sell
0:29:58 > 0:30:02it, could he? That is also part of the problem. You can argue for or
0:30:02 > 0:30:08against if he was going too far or also say a lot of the reforms could
0:30:08 > 0:30:14have been done without the Bill, the big Bill, but whatever he
0:30:14 > 0:30:17couldn't sell it even to his own side? It's partly because there was
0:30:17 > 0:30:23a ban on selling this. Before the election, the line was there would
0:30:23 > 0:30:26be no reform on the Health Service. After, even, Conservatives spent
0:30:26 > 0:30:30most of their time saying the National Health Service is
0:30:30 > 0:30:35absolutely wonderful. Nurses are glorious. It's quite difficult to
0:30:35 > 0:30:39argue the case for reform when you feel yourself obliged to praise
0:30:39 > 0:30:46everyone as though they were doing a great job. What ministers really
0:30:46 > 0:30:51think is lots are not doing a great job and need a boot up the backside.
0:30:51 > 0:30:59You are skilful enough to not try and sell them as he did, as
0:30:59 > 0:31:05introducing the competition values of the private companies, Thames
0:31:05 > 0:31:09Water and British Gas. It was so cack-handed. When you lose the
0:31:09 > 0:31:14support of Alan Milburn you are in trouble. Syria, the big
0:31:14 > 0:31:19international story of our time. Where now can we see this? Can we
0:31:19 > 0:31:24divine where this goes? We can rule out western intervention, agreed?
0:31:24 > 0:31:27wouldn't entirely agree with that. Tell me why. Where is it going? I'm
0:31:27 > 0:31:32very conflicted about this. On the one hand, I have a strong feeling
0:31:32 > 0:31:35it will end up with the President of Syria swinging from a rope. But
0:31:35 > 0:31:43on the other hand, he clearly has the fire power and the people in
0:31:43 > 0:31:47Homs don't. None the less, you see massive desertion from the Army.
0:31:47 > 0:31:57Apparently he has lost the Sunni officers and down to the Alawites,
0:31:57 > 0:31:57
0:31:57 > 0:32:02his own tribe. Only 3%. Yes, it's grime. -- it's grim. If this Homs
0:32:02 > 0:32:05thing goes on and if on TV, because we have now got cameras in the
0:32:05 > 0:32:14places, if we are going to see the people being slaughtered day after
0:32:14 > 0:32:18day after day, then you are going to get a Bosnian situation. I agree.
0:32:18 > 0:32:23The UN resolution wasn't even chapter 7, it was 6. It wasn't the
0:32:23 > 0:32:27most sturdy or profound. They took into account all the Russian and
0:32:27 > 0:32:33Chinese amendments, which made it innocuous and vetoed it in the end.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36I think when you get a situation like that the regime says if the
0:32:36 > 0:32:41international community have rejected a resolution that is
0:32:41 > 0:32:46specifically condemned what we are doing to our people, then they must
0:32:46 > 0:32:51be giving us covert nod and a wink. So, it's very difficult to think
0:32:51 > 0:32:55how you can resolve it with the UN now sidelined, unless there can be
0:32:55 > 0:33:00some change of heart on behalf of Russia. There was one interesting
0:33:00 > 0:33:04thing and we haven't got time to talk about it, and it was indicated
0:33:04 > 0:33:08that Turkey may be prepared to create a safe zone in the north of
0:33:08 > 0:33:15Syria that it would control if it had western backing. You could see
0:33:15 > 0:33:17some mileage in that. Now, when it comes to scenes of Dickensian
0:33:17 > 0:33:20squalor and poverty-stricken working conditions, there are few
0:33:20 > 0:33:23more pathetic sights than the wretched artful dodgers in the This
0:33:23 > 0:33:26Week production office. Thanks to the wonders of central heating we
0:33:26 > 0:33:29no longer have the need to send children up chimneys, yet still we
0:33:29 > 0:33:31force underage street urchins of modest abilities to produce current
0:33:31 > 0:33:34affairs programmes for the viewing public, for nothing more than a
0:33:34 > 0:33:37signed photograph of Michael Portillo, one of his discarded
0:33:37 > 0:33:39green satin shirts, and a bowl of BBC gruel. Hard times indeed.
0:33:39 > 0:33:49That's why we've decided, as it's his birthday, to put Charles
0:33:49 > 0:34:10
0:34:10 > 0:34:17With the anniversary of the birth of Charles Dickens, it seems one of
0:34:17 > 0:34:21the most successful story tellers of all time still has us all of a
0:34:21 > 0:34:26twisted around his little finger. A service in Poet's Corner and a
0:34:26 > 0:34:32Royal reception at his former house. What more could the birthday boy
0:34:32 > 0:34:36wish for? His descriptions of characters and of his state of
0:34:36 > 0:34:41being at that time in England was part of our historical record of
0:34:41 > 0:34:45what it was like back then. Even the House of Commons marked the
0:34:45 > 0:34:50event. I understand that this morning's Cabinet meeting that the
0:34:50 > 0:34:59Culture Secretary gave the Deputy Prime Minister a Dickens -- for
0:34:59 > 0:35:07Dickens Day a copy of Oliver Twist. Did they then burst into a verse of
0:35:07 > 0:35:15Consider Yourself? In these hard times, there are no expectations.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19Just how relevant is Dickens in the modern world? His writing has been
0:35:19 > 0:35:28in television and film, but will he be as popular in the next 200
0:35:28 > 0:35:36years? If by the magic of television, Charles Dance joins us.
0:35:36 > 0:35:41Welcome. So good to see you. Thank you. What is it that there is about
0:35:41 > 0:35:51dickans that we are celebrating his 200th birthday? Well, in my humble
0:35:51 > 0:35:53
0:35:53 > 0:35:58opinion, he is better than shakes sphere as a wordsSmith. He creates
0:35:58 > 0:36:04the more glorious plots and I think it's because he's a very, very fine
0:36:04 > 0:36:11writer. Strong cracksters? Yes. Strong stories, as you say. A take
0:36:11 > 0:36:15on society at the time? Yes, but we are now living in a London where I
0:36:15 > 0:36:21think from where I am standing that the gulf between people who have a
0:36:21 > 0:36:26great deal of money and people who have not very much is getting wider.
0:36:26 > 0:36:33In that regard we are quite the close to Victorian society. Do we
0:36:33 > 0:36:39need another Dickens for,000? -- for now? I think we do. We have Ken
0:36:39 > 0:36:45Loach in filming terms, who makes films with substantial content. Not
0:36:45 > 0:36:50just to do with entertainment. I think we need people to chronicle
0:36:50 > 0:36:56our society. Are you concerned, as some people are, that children now
0:36:56 > 0:37:01are being taught in ways that it makes Dickens more difficult? They
0:37:01 > 0:37:06haven't got the attention span for the vocabulary and these are -
0:37:06 > 0:37:14everything has to be easy and in soundbites. Dickens is not easy and
0:37:14 > 0:37:19it's not in soundbites? No, it's not easy. I think it also depends
0:37:19 > 0:37:24on quality of the teaching. And how much time teachers have. It seems
0:37:24 > 0:37:31to me, that in the State system that they are bogged down by
0:37:31 > 0:37:35bureaucracy and a great percentage of children, I suspect, read to
0:37:35 > 0:37:39acquire information. They don't read for the joy and love the
0:37:39 > 0:37:42reading. To absorb the words and stories. They read to find out how
0:37:42 > 0:37:48to do things, because education is to do with training people to
0:37:48 > 0:37:55become useful members of society. Not to do with finding out a
0:37:55 > 0:37:59child's potential and bringing it out. I think that is what great
0:37:59 > 0:38:05literature and painting and music do that for people. Not training
0:38:05 > 0:38:10and pushing. Or cramming it in. Have you read any Dickens, Michael?
0:38:10 > 0:38:16I have read a lot. I started with my mother reading me a huge amount.
0:38:16 > 0:38:20I used to sit at her knee and she must have read me ten or 12 novels.
0:38:20 > 0:38:26I retain knowledge of those and the memory of those novels from those
0:38:26 > 0:38:31readings by my mother to this day. When Great Expectations I knew the
0:38:31 > 0:38:37first line. The greatness of Dickens, I've been trying to think
0:38:37 > 0:38:42about this. There are tens of Dickens novels that are wonderful
0:38:42 > 0:38:50lessons in the social inequality at the time. How many novels have
0:38:50 > 0:38:54there been since? There have been the To Kill A Mocking Bird, but
0:38:54 > 0:39:00each author has produced one great novel about the social conditions.
0:39:00 > 0:39:04He produced dozens. Alan, are you a fan? I'm reading Great Expectations
0:39:04 > 0:39:11at the moment and I read David copper field when I was 13. From
0:39:11 > 0:39:16then there was a love of Dickens. Some children are urged to read it
0:39:16 > 0:39:22before the age of 11. I know you having it read to you might be a
0:39:22 > 0:39:25difficult thing, but I wouldn't do that. Around about 14, 15, 16,
0:39:25 > 0:39:31because he isn't an easy read in the sense you have to concentrate
0:39:31 > 0:39:34and you have to follow some of the plot. Yeah. Do you think it matters,
0:39:34 > 0:39:40because we talked about the difficulty of some children reading
0:39:40 > 0:39:44him today, but today's generation have a plethora of TV and film on
0:39:44 > 0:39:48Dickens and in many cases because the productions are so well done,
0:39:48 > 0:39:58that will encourage some people to get the book and read? Hopefully,
0:39:58 > 0:39:59
0:39:59 > 0:40:05yes. I think it does, yeah. We all agree that Dickens is not an easy
0:40:05 > 0:40:10read and you were very lucky to be read by your mother. Rather like
0:40:10 > 0:40:20shaibgdz spear, is better watched and heard than -- shakes sphere is
0:40:20 > 0:40:21
0:40:21 > 0:40:25better watched and heard than read. -- shakes sphere. Dickens used for
0:40:25 > 0:40:29adjectives and he created a wealth of characters and you really do
0:40:29 > 0:40:34need to concentrate. As you said at the beginning, people's attention
0:40:34 > 0:40:39span is limited now and we are also creating a new language that we
0:40:39 > 0:40:44tweet with and text with. When it first came out, it wasn't a book.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48It came out as a serialisation, which in many ways made it more
0:40:48 > 0:40:54able to do that, because you read a little every week when it came out.
0:40:54 > 0:41:03Yes. Do we have a Dickens today? have a lot. He has so many
0:41:03 > 0:41:10relatives. That's not what I mean. Do we have some cataloguing society
0:41:10 > 0:41:15of today? The Americans have Philip Roth. Absolutely. He's a giant.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19People will look back to find out what the United States was like in
0:41:20 > 0:41:26the post-war deck ainds they'll look to him. My sense would be --
0:41:26 > 0:41:30decades and they'll look to him. My sense is we'll be talking about him
0:41:30 > 0:41:40in another 200 years. He'll survive? Absolutely. If he was here
0:41:40 > 0:41:47now he would be writing sceneplays and television series. What about -
0:41:47 > 0:41:51Simon Cowell has been writing them. -- Simon Callow has been writing
0:41:51 > 0:41:54them. Do MPs read? They should. When you are a minister it is quite
0:41:54 > 0:41:58difficult, because you have got so many other things, but if you make
0:41:58 > 0:42:01a discipline of continuing to get away from the red boxes. They take
0:42:01 > 0:42:10novels on holiday with them. Nowadays particularly they'll take
0:42:10 > 0:42:17them on the kindle. By the way, I downloaded all of Dickens on to my
0:42:18 > 0:42:21whatever, my tablet, and it cost me $2 for 50 novels. Wow. Unbelievable.
0:42:21 > 0:42:31It was the best of times. It was the worst of times. Great beginning.
0:42:31 > 0:42:31
0:42:31 > 0:42:34It's the best of all. Yes. Charles, thank you for joining us. That's
0:42:35 > 0:42:37your lot for tonight folks. Sadly, we'll be giving Annabel's a miss
0:42:37 > 0:42:41tonight - Charles Clarke's minicab is stuck in a snowdrift on The
0:42:41 > 0:42:43Embankment, so it looks like we'll be bedding down on the This Week
0:42:43 > 0:42:46sofas. Shouldn't be a problem getting to sleep, Michael's
0:42:46 > 0:42:48promised to read us a bed-time story from John Major's memoirs.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52Alan, however, has been banned from strumming his guitar. We're being
0:42:52 > 0:42:55forced to take a holiday next week folks, but we'll be back to annoy
0:42:55 > 0:42:58you on the 23rd. So, we leave you with the cockney geezer who's