:00:09. > :00:19.Tonight, in honour of the great Davy Jones, This Week is going to
:00:19. > :00:21.
:00:21. > :00:27.have some fun. Some monkey business going on over the Falklands, but
:00:27. > :00:32.where will it lead? Former MP gorgeous George Galloway thinks
:00:32. > :00:35.it's time to let go. We don't want to end up crying over Argentina, we
:00:35. > :00:38.can't have another war. The Queen doesn't have enough soldiers. We
:00:39. > :00:46.will have to come up with something else. I know just the man for the
:00:46. > :00:53.job. Too much monkeying around at News
:00:53. > :00:57.International as James Murdoch steps down. The Sun's Jane Moore
:00:57. > :01:07.takes a ride on the buses. It's been a bumpy week for the tabloids,
:01:07. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.but I am still a believer. And as Rupert Murdoch launches The
:01:12. > :01:20.Sun on Sunday s there a future for the tabloids? One creation of the
:01:20. > :01:23.red-top press, Abi Titmuss give us an exclusive. The tabloid press
:01:23. > :01:27.certainly built me up but in the end they almost destroyed me.
:01:27. > :01:36.We are the political monkeys and people say we monkey around but
:01:36. > :01:40.we're too busy singing to put anybody down.
:01:40. > :01:42.Anybody still watching? Evening all, welcome to This Week.
:01:42. > :01:45.Now for those whose Thursdays aren't complete without a little
:01:45. > :01:51.light playing of the infamous This Week drinking game, we might as
:01:51. > :01:55.well kick things off early with an immediate shout-out of: Blue Nun!
:01:55. > :01:58.Off you go, down it. Because I fear you're going to need a swift one,
:01:58. > :02:05.folks, when you hear today's shock news that people who pay top-rate
:02:05. > :02:08.income tax don't particularly like paying top-rate income tax.
:02:09. > :02:11.Consider my flabber well and truly gasted. In an open begging letter
:02:11. > :02:14.to today's Daily Telegraph, over 500 of the nation's squeezed pips
:02:14. > :02:17.have put the case for trickle-down economics and a cut in their
:02:17. > :02:18.personal taxation Apparently the 50p top-rate of tax is unfair,
:02:19. > :02:20.politically motivated, puts populist politics before sound
:02:21. > :02:22.economics, reduces Government income, damages the economy, hurts
:02:23. > :02:32.public services, undermines charitable giving, and have you
:02:33. > :02:38.
:02:38. > :02:41.seen the price of a Bentley these days?! Actually, they failed to
:02:41. > :02:45.mention the price of a Bentley in the letter but reading between the
:02:45. > :02:52.tear-stained lines, I think we all felt their unspoken pain. Boy
:02:52. > :02:56.George, dare you come to their aid come the Budget? Dare you, dare you,
:02:56. > :03:00.dare you? You know you want to. Speaking of desperate charity cases
:03:00. > :03:02.in need of our sympathy, I'm joined on the This Week sofa tonight by
:03:03. > :03:11.two of Westminster's biggest sob- stories, the little orphan Annie
:03:11. > :03:13.and littlest hobo of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:13. > :03:18.of Michael 'Trainspotter' Portillo and, as always, trending as
:03:18. > :03:23.#manontheleft, Alan 'AJ' Johnson. Welcome to you both. Hello, Andrew.
:03:23. > :03:26.Moment of the week, Michael? couple of nights ago there was a
:03:26. > :03:31.Dimbleby lecture given, I thought it was one of the most outstanding
:03:31. > :03:35.lectures I ever heard, Sir Paul was arguing for the role of science in
:03:35. > :03:39.fighting disease, fighting climate change, improving the economy. I
:03:39. > :03:43.thought it was just an outstanding piece of reasoning. By the way, Sir
:03:43. > :03:49.Paul and I were at school together, he is a little bit older than I and
:03:49. > :03:54.I thought it was wonderful, a man who has won a Nobel prize and now
:03:54. > :03:57.President of the society to pay him paying tribute to a teacher at
:03:57. > :04:01.school who inspired him, even though Sir Paul found it difficult
:04:01. > :04:10.to get into university. wonderful. Great story. Alan, your
:04:11. > :04:14.moment? It's a sad one, it's the obituary of a woman called Dame
:04:14. > :04:22.Streathy who was a prominent civil servant I had the privilege to work
:04:22. > :04:25.with in Government. She left an academy aged 16, became an
:04:25. > :04:28.administerive assistant, about the lowest grade of the civil service
:04:28. > :04:33.and rose to become the chief executive of Jobcentre Plus and
:04:33. > :04:39.chief executive and permanent Secretary of Her Majesty's Customs
:04:39. > :04:42.and Revenue. It's a tragedy that she died. Another non-university.
:04:42. > :04:46.tragedy she died, I hope the ability to go from the first rung
:04:46. > :04:49.of the civil service to the top rung hasn't died with her. You both
:04:49. > :04:58.raise stories as to whether that social mobility is still with us
:04:58. > :05:01.today and we talked about that, very interesting indeed. Now, you
:05:01. > :05:04.know when you've been tango'd and it looks like in the diplomatic
:05:04. > :05:07.dance of the South Atlantic, things are warming up nicely, thank you
:05:07. > :05:09.very much, With Argentina ramping up the rhetoric over the Falkland
:05:09. > :05:11.Islands, amid threats of trade embargos and turned-away cruise
:05:11. > :05:15.ships and a pre-emptive British pincer movement involving Prince
:05:15. > :05:18.William and a Royal Navy Destroyer, it looks like a bit of Argy Bargy
:05:18. > :05:24.could be back on the cards and with the 30th anniversary of the
:05:24. > :05:34.Falklands conflict only a month away. So we asked former MP George
:05:34. > :05:35.
:05:35. > :05:39.Galloway for his Take of the week. I am quite well known as an anti-
:05:39. > :05:44.war campaigner, after all, many a time over the last decade or so I
:05:44. > :05:49.have addressed huge audiences from this plinth in Trafalgar Square
:05:49. > :05:55.behind me in opposition to British wars. But as a matter of fact, I
:05:55. > :06:00.did not oppose the war in the Falklands in 1982. Any British
:06:00. > :06:05.Government would have been forced to come to the aid of people
:06:05. > :06:11.attacked in such a way. But that did not mean then, and certainly
:06:11. > :06:18.does not mean now, that I support the idea that Britain can continue
:06:18. > :06:22.to assert its sovereignty over a piece of land 8,000 miles away on
:06:22. > :06:30.the basis of a population of British people smaller than the
:06:30. > :06:34.population of the village of Netherwlop. Argentina holds all the
:06:34. > :06:39.cards, it's no longer ruled by a fascist military junta. It's part
:06:39. > :06:44.of a collection of left leaning democracies in Latin America
:06:44. > :06:49.admired throughout the world. As was shown by the panic in the
:06:49. > :06:52.British Foreign Office at the off the cuff remark of an Argentine
:06:52. > :06:57.Minister that big companies in Argentina should be boycotting
:06:57. > :07:03.British goods and services, if all of Latin America begins to boycott
:07:03. > :07:08.British goods and services, trust me, the cost to our trade, our
:07:08. > :07:13.business, and our influence in that part of the world and wider would
:07:13. > :07:19.be very expensive indeed. That's not to say that there's no
:07:19. > :07:24.peaceful solution to this. There is. First of all, Argentina has no wish
:07:24. > :07:28.to take away the Britishness of the 3,000 people who are living on the
:07:28. > :07:33.Falkland islands, they have enough people in their country. They don't
:07:33. > :07:36.want the people. They want sovereignty, at least shared
:07:36. > :07:44.sovereignty over the land. And of course the waters around it and
:07:44. > :07:47.what lies beneath them. So, either the people can be resettled in
:07:47. > :07:52.Britain, or alternatively, they could remain in the Falkland
:07:52. > :07:57.islands with their prized British passports, as long as the land and
:07:57. > :08:01.the waters and what lies beneath them is shared with Argentina and
:08:01. > :08:05.trust me, it would be better to reach a deal now that shared that
:08:05. > :08:09.sovereignty, and shared those resources, rather than later when
:08:09. > :08:13.the balance has shifted still further and we end up with no share
:08:13. > :08:18.at all. Now, I know that the British Foreign Office just down
:08:18. > :08:25.the road there in Whitehall ain't what it used to be. But you know
:08:25. > :08:30.what, I reckon that if you sent me over to Buenos Aires, that between
:08:30. > :08:37.me and the popular and attractive President of Argentina, I could
:08:37. > :08:41.probably sort it out in an afternoon.
:08:41. > :08:46.George Galloway, a beautiful spring day in Trafalgar Square, to our
:08:46. > :08:50.square here in Millbank. Welcome. Let me tourpb Alan Johnson first,
:08:51. > :08:54.is George right, time for a rethink? No, because I think what
:08:54. > :08:58.George is suggesting is these things are decided on logic. A lot
:08:58. > :09:00.of logic in what George said and actually if the war hadn't happened
:09:00. > :09:04.you could imagine those conversations, indeed those
:09:05. > :09:08.conversations were probably taking place before 1983, but now that
:09:08. > :09:12.British blood has been spilled on the Falklands I just can't see it
:09:12. > :09:17.happening. Is the present relationship between Britain and
:09:18. > :09:20.the Falklands sustainable? Yes, I think it's sustainable for a very
:09:20. > :09:24.long time. The people who live in the Falklands are essentially
:09:24. > :09:29.British. George admitted that in the film. They're not like
:09:29. > :09:33.Australians or South Africans, they're certainly not like
:09:33. > :09:36.Gibraltarens. A lot of Italians. These people on the Falklands
:09:36. > :09:40.really could have dropped out of Sussex the day before yesterday.
:09:40. > :09:43.There's no history of Argentine population. It isn't a mixed
:09:43. > :09:46.population. It's not as though Argentina once had a lot of people
:09:46. > :09:49.there who got kicked out or anything. These are British people
:09:49. > :09:54.and George airily said they could be resettled or the Government
:09:54. > :09:57.could be changed on top of them. I was surprised too to hear George
:09:57. > :10:01.said the Argentinian Government is respected, I don't think that is sa
:10:01. > :10:04.broad view. I think on the whole the Argentina Government is not
:10:04. > :10:08.respected and Argentina has been an extremely unstable sort of place
:10:08. > :10:14.between military dictatorships, the pop louse Government now and
:10:14. > :10:18.governments that made the country bankruptcy in between. George?
:10:18. > :10:23.President is very popular throughout Latin America, all Latin
:10:24. > :10:28.America countries now support the Argentine claim. We used to have a
:10:28. > :10:33.fifth column in Chile but actually there is a pan Latin American
:10:33. > :10:36.support for Argentina's claim and indeed broadly in the United
:10:36. > :10:40.Nations. I take the point Alan makes about the spilling of British
:10:40. > :10:44.blood and of course you and I at least, if not are old enough to
:10:44. > :10:50.remember, that both the Callaghan Government and Thatcher Government
:10:50. > :10:54.were discussing this very thing with the Argentines and if the
:10:54. > :10:57.fascist -- junta hadn't attacked the Falklands we probably would
:10:57. > :11:01.have already done that deal. The problem is we talk about spilled
:11:01. > :11:04.blood, we don't have more blood to spill. We can't fight Argentina
:11:04. > :11:10.again. In fact, we would be fighting all of Latin America if we
:11:10. > :11:14.did. We are not what we were. We are a country struggling. The Queen
:11:14. > :11:17.doesn't have enough enough soldiers to fight another war against all of
:11:17. > :11:21.Latin America and what after the war? Are you going to garrison it
:11:21. > :11:26.and defend it for ever more? What about Michael's point that the
:11:26. > :11:31.people of the Falklands, they can't be resettled, they've nowhere else
:11:31. > :11:36.to go. They belong in the Falklands. Argentina has never occupied or
:11:36. > :11:40.populated the Falklands themselves. It's not like Argentinas were
:11:40. > :11:45.kicked out to make way. Argentina didn't effectively exist when as a
:11:45. > :11:48.state when... When the Spanish had it for a while. When we planted
:11:48. > :11:52.people there and these are the descendents. They're forever
:11:52. > :11:56.telling us how British they are, they might welcome �1 million each
:11:56. > :12:02.to live here and we would still be quids in because we spent more on
:12:02. > :12:06.the war and the sus tenance since. But if they wanted to stay
:12:06. > :12:09.Argentina would be more than happy to agree to that. Quo share the
:12:09. > :12:14.sovereignty now or when the balance tilts still further we might end up
:12:14. > :12:17.with nothing at all. There's a sort of cynicism here that I don't
:12:17. > :12:23.generally associate with George. used to be called diplomacy and a
:12:23. > :12:26.proper... On this basis we would invade Iraq because there is a lot
:12:26. > :12:29.of oil there, the same logic says we should give these people up
:12:29. > :12:32.because we have broader interests in Latin America and we can send
:12:32. > :12:37.these people somewhere else, give them �1 million and tell them to go
:12:37. > :12:43.away and be grateful. It is the population of - British national
:12:43. > :12:47.interests cannot be kick stated by the population of Netherwalop,
:12:47. > :12:52.that's absurd and if that policy is going to become more expensive in
:12:52. > :12:54.diplomatic terms, in business terms, it's incumbent upon us. Once upon a
:12:54. > :12:59.time British statesmanship would have automatically been calculating
:12:59. > :13:09.that and coming up with a solution and I am saying that Andrew and I,
:13:09. > :13:19.
:13:19. > :13:22.the delightful Mrs Kercher, a paso I know that all the Latin American
:13:23. > :13:27.countries have sort of signed up with Argentina on this, signing up
:13:28. > :13:32.is one thing, giving a dam is another. That's the point. I don't
:13:32. > :13:35.think that Argentina are rattling sabres in a meaningful way. I don't
:13:35. > :13:41.think there's any question of them repeating the mistake of the junta
:13:41. > :13:44.in the 80s but George is right, I think Brazil were supporting the UK
:13:44. > :13:48.back in the 80s and they don't now and Brazil is a major player but
:13:48. > :13:50.there's no catalyst for tho this here there.'s no reason for the
:13:50. > :13:54.British Government to be thinking through these options. Did you
:13:54. > :13:59.really think Brazil cares? Very much so. The leftist Government in
:13:59. > :14:02.Brazil is close to the President, they would be a key ally. Brazil in
:14:02. > :14:06.the next ten years is going to be one of the most important economies
:14:06. > :14:10.in the world. It already is. Indeed. Why would you want to have bad
:14:10. > :14:12.relations with Brazil? It doesn't make sense. You have to go a stage
:14:12. > :14:15.further and prove that Brazil is going to have bad relations with
:14:15. > :14:19.Britain over the Falklands and I don't think you have proved that.
:14:19. > :14:23.Well, I think we are headed in that direction. The direction of travel
:14:23. > :14:28.is for a sharper polarisation between Britain and Argentina.
:14:28. > :14:33.Argentina will call in its friends' support. The threat of a boycott in
:14:33. > :14:38.Argentina of British goods and services will become a Latin
:14:38. > :14:42.American black spot on us and that's far more expensive, even
:14:42. > :14:46.than the cost of sustaining and garrisoning these islands and
:14:46. > :14:51.certainly... For the moment it is only Argentina and the Argentine
:14:51. > :14:56.economy is a good deal smaller than the economy of the city of Sao
:14:56. > :14:58.Paulo. Indeed. My point Argentina is located in an emerging Latin
:14:58. > :15:04.America, you know this very well, which is more and more important.
:15:04. > :15:07.It's swept away dictatorship. It has popular governments. There --
:15:07. > :15:11.they are admired around the world as a whole, Latin America. This can
:15:11. > :15:20.only get worse. This is my point. Our position can only get worse
:15:20. > :15:25.You raised the possibility of joint sovereignty. Any examples where
:15:25. > :15:30.that has work? We had a relationship with China over Hong
:15:30. > :15:33.Kong for a substantial time and the transition has worked very well to
:15:33. > :15:37.total Chinese sovereignty. I am saying if we do not sign up for
:15:37. > :15:40.joint sovereignty with Argentina, we will eventually have to give it
:15:40. > :15:45.all to them. And we now know this is not just about a collection of
:15:45. > :15:50.rocks, penguins, sheep and the population of Nether Wallop. This
:15:50. > :15:53.is about oil and gas under the water. Doesn't that give an
:15:53. > :15:58.incentive to hold on, in that we had to fight for these islands, we
:15:58. > :16:05.did, blood was spilled, these people are loyal to the British
:16:05. > :16:10.Crown, now we have discovered oil and no good deed goes unrewarded?
:16:10. > :16:16.There is no way that George can prosecute this argument by ignoring
:16:16. > :16:22.what happened in 83. And it changes all of the basis for the discussion
:16:22. > :16:25.on this. I think the President of Argentina, who said this will be
:16:25. > :16:29.referred to the UN for Dispute Resolution, that will assure that
:16:29. > :16:33.it will not be sold for the next 70 years. Maybe there might be a
:16:33. > :16:36.different climate then. But I see no catalyst for a British
:16:36. > :16:39.Government to do an enormously unpopular thing, to get into talks
:16:39. > :16:46.with Argentina on the spurious grounds that it might improve
:16:46. > :16:53.relationships with Brazil. Give your crystal balls out. 30 years
:16:53. > :16:58.time, the status of the Falklands? They will be British. I do not
:16:58. > :17:02.think it would change in 30 years. While we are still sitting on
:17:02. > :17:06.television sofas we will have joint sovereignty. We will have you back.
:17:06. > :17:09.Even if we have you in a wheelchair to get in.
:17:09. > :17:13.Now, wake up and get yourself dressed. Those shelves aren't going
:17:13. > :17:16.to stack themselves you know. But before you leave us for HMP Tesco's
:17:16. > :17:19.night shift, stick around a little longer because waiting in the wings
:17:19. > :17:24.former model, actress, and phone- hacking victim Abi Titmuss, who's
:17:24. > :17:27.here to reveal all about the highs and lows of tabloid culture. And
:17:27. > :17:31.for those looking to express their undying gratitude to us just fire
:17:31. > :17:40.up your Raspberry Pi and get in touch via Twitter, the Facebook, or
:17:40. > :17:49.even just the plain old interweb. Now, with just a 148 days until the
:17:49. > :17:55.Snooze-lympics, indifference in the This Week studio is palpable. Even
:17:55. > :17:59.Michael's having second thoughts about the Greco-Roman wrestling. So
:17:59. > :18:02.things must be bad. So imagine our delight that, despite Boris' shiny
:18:02. > :18:05.new Routemaster, London bus drivers are being encouraged to use the
:18:06. > :18:09.Games as an opportunity to flex some industrial muscle and show the
:18:09. > :18:14.world that we still know how to come first when it comes to
:18:14. > :18:18.throwing a spanner in the works. But don't worry, we've got it
:18:18. > :18:28.covered. We've asked the Sun's Jane Moore to man the buses and give us
:18:28. > :18:44.
:18:44. > :18:48.Next stop, Leveson. It was all aboard once again as the Leveson
:18:48. > :18:55.inquiry resumed this week. This time in the hot seat, the police
:18:55. > :18:59.and the Sun, as findings of alleged corruption were uncovered. There
:19:00. > :19:03.appears to have been a culture of the Sun of illegal payments, and
:19:03. > :19:10.systems had been created to facilitate those payments whilst
:19:10. > :19:14.hiding the identity of the officials receiving the money.
:19:14. > :19:17.tabloid journalists are not far behind cowboy builders and estate
:19:17. > :19:21.agents in the popularity stakes, these claims are perhaps more
:19:21. > :19:24.damaging for the police who, after all, are the supposedly of holders
:19:24. > :19:33.of the law. That is a view that seems to be shared by the Prime
:19:33. > :19:38.Minister. It is hard to think of any circumstances in which it is
:19:38. > :19:42.right for police officers to take money. Where to? Wapping, please.
:19:42. > :19:46.Some would have it that the Leveson inquiry claims another high profile
:19:46. > :19:50.scout this week, when James Murdoch, the executive chair of News
:19:50. > :19:54.International, announced he is stepping down. But those within the
:19:54. > :20:00.company might tell you that move had been in the pipeline for about
:20:00. > :20:06.three months. Thank you. Either way, it seems that his exit stage left
:20:06. > :20:16.was positively understated compared to a much bigger show in town, his
:20:16. > :20:18.
:20:18. > :20:24.dad, Rupert, launching the Sunday The wheels on the bus go round and
:20:24. > :20:28.round, and so do the arguments over the Government's NHS reforms. No
:20:28. > :20:32.signs of reversing or you turns, but certainly a little bit of
:20:32. > :20:35.spinning of the political wheels. Nick Clegg, with his spring
:20:35. > :20:41.conference around the corner, knows he has a certain of oiling of the
:20:41. > :20:47.grassroots to do. So he teams up with Lib Dem pin-up girl Shirley
:20:47. > :20:51.Williams to write a public letter demanding changes to the NHS bill.
:20:51. > :20:56.What a tough guy he is. I have always regarded competition as a
:20:56. > :20:59.means to a better NHS, not as an end in itself. That is why our
:20:59. > :21:08.amendments will make it clear once and for all that competition is the
:21:08. > :21:11.servant of the NHS, Neve its master. -- never its master. Hang on a
:21:11. > :21:14.minute! Nick Clegg is part of the Government and Deputy Prime
:21:14. > :21:19.Minister, so what is he doing publicly demanding changes when he
:21:19. > :21:26.could just speak to Dave? This smacks of political choreography,
:21:26. > :21:33.or, as the Lib Dems so catchily put it, differentiation policy. Still,
:21:33. > :21:37.it seemed to work. We, and I mean all of us on these benches, we are
:21:37. > :21:42.using the debates in the Lords further to reassure all those who
:21:42. > :21:45.care about the NHS. I am grateful for this chance to reassure my
:21:45. > :21:49.honourable friends in the House of the positive and beneficial effects
:21:49. > :21:56.of debate in another place and of the work we are all doing to secure
:21:56. > :22:01.positive future for the NHS. Feet of the seats! When Nick Clegg now
:22:01. > :22:06.stands on NHS reform is not clear. Something Ed Miliband had quite a
:22:06. > :22:12.bit of fun with. By the way, Deputy Prime Minister is smirking. I do
:22:12. > :22:19.not know whether he supports the bill, or opposes it. Oh, he
:22:19. > :22:24.supports it! He supports it, Mr Speaker! Well, there is firm
:22:24. > :22:28.leadership for you. It is not only Lib Dems looking for love from the
:22:28. > :22:32.top. It seems to be forgotten that they lost five seats at the last
:22:32. > :22:34.election. So there is a bit of rumbling at the back of the bus
:22:34. > :22:40.from Tory parliamentary footsoldiers, anxious that the
:22:40. > :22:43.perception is that Nick Clegg and Co are in the driving seat.
:22:43. > :22:51.Somebody should tell the Deputy Prime Minister who is running this
:22:52. > :22:58.The Government's work experience scheme had a very bumpy ride last
:22:58. > :23:05.week. In fact, it nearly broke down. Cue the sound of reverse gears
:23:05. > :23:11.crunching all over Westminster. Sorry! As the minister in charge
:23:11. > :23:15.backtracked over removing benefits from those who disembarked the
:23:15. > :23:19.scheme after a week. The employers said, we would like to modify it.
:23:19. > :23:22.At the moment, people can leave voluntarily after the first week.
:23:22. > :23:27.We would like them to sit down later with us in a work placement
:23:27. > :23:30.if it is not working out and to say, we want to opt out. We thought that
:23:30. > :23:36.was reasonable. We want to keep the positive scheme for young people
:23:36. > :23:39.going, so we said we would accept that. I am with Sir Stuart Rose on
:23:39. > :23:49.this. The Government and the big companies should have stuck to
:23:49. > :23:51.
:23:51. > :23:55.Union boss Len McCluskey has called for public sector workers,
:23:55. > :24:00.including bus drivers to strike during the Olympics. It is a move
:24:00. > :24:10.that has been universally condemned. Still, if they are mad enough to do
:24:10. > :24:11.
:24:11. > :24:15.it, at least I will be ready to man the buses.
:24:16. > :24:23.Two for the price of one. We can throw-in Miranda Green from the Lib
:24:23. > :24:27.Dems, too. Welcome back. Thank you. How difficult is this health issue
:24:27. > :24:30.for the Lib Dems? It is very tricky, with the spring conference coming
:24:30. > :24:33.up and the threat of rebellion from the grass roots, who are putting
:24:33. > :24:39.forward motions to debate at the conference that the whole bill
:24:39. > :24:43.should be dropped. It is still very tricky but Nick Clegg has done this
:24:43. > :24:48.manoeuvre to hug Shirley Williams extremely close. She can barely
:24:48. > :24:55.breathe! I think they are quite pleased. She is getting on, so he
:24:55. > :25:00.needs to be careful. He had to sign this letter, didn't he? They had to
:25:00. > :25:04.do something to try and demonstrate that the key concerns had been met.
:25:04. > :25:07.What they feel is that the peers, who have been leading the rebellion
:25:07. > :25:11.on this, if the peers, who know every line of the bill off by heart,
:25:11. > :25:16.now say that they are satisfied, that ought to satisfy the grass
:25:16. > :25:21.roots. I think it is very unpredictable. Liberal Democrat
:25:21. > :25:25.conferences can be unpredictable. This whole Lib Dem rebellion
:25:25. > :25:29.started at the spring conference last year. We are one year into it.
:25:29. > :25:34.We have had endless amendments, not all of them from the Lib Dems, but
:25:34. > :25:41.some of the substantive ones have been. And yet we are still not
:25:41. > :25:45.through the process. Politically, it is a mess, isn't it? It is a
:25:45. > :25:48.mess for everyone and a disaster for everyone involved. But because
:25:48. > :25:53.David Cameron is absolutely stalwart in his determination to
:25:53. > :25:57.keep the bill, it has to be proved publicly that the Bill has been
:25:57. > :26:01.changed dramatically by a Lib Dem intervention. Hence all of his
:26:01. > :26:06.choreography. Will the forces of law and order at the Lib Dem
:26:06. > :26:11.conference, Mr Clegg and the party establishment, will they see off
:26:11. > :26:18.the peasants with pitchforks? really think a lot depends on
:26:18. > :26:21.Shirley. If she turns up and says it is OK... If she is front and
:26:21. > :26:24.centre and makes a significant intervention at the right moment in
:26:25. > :26:30.the conference hall, she will sway everyone because she always does.
:26:30. > :26:35.Their hearts go out to her and they do what she says. It all depends on
:26:35. > :26:39.Shirley. I think largely it does and this joint manoeuvre has been
:26:39. > :26:45.magnificent but it may not work. What happens if conference says, we
:26:45. > :26:49.vote to throw the bill out? Liberal Democrats are Democratic
:26:49. > :26:55.Party, so unfortunately for the leadership what conference says
:26:55. > :27:00.does matter significantly. What happens to Mr Clegg's position? Is
:27:00. > :27:06.it in danger? I don't think so on this. It is not a mess of his
:27:06. > :27:11.making, remember that. This is Andrew Lansley's bill. He signed
:27:11. > :27:17.the white paper. And we saw him saying he supports the bill. With
:27:17. > :27:22.its changes. He supported it before the changes as well, until he
:27:22. > :27:29.decided they had to be changes. we coming to the end of the
:27:29. > :27:33.parliamentary road with this? Is it all over bar the shouting? This
:27:33. > :27:36.hope of a bill will one day grab -- drag itself across the Royal Assent
:27:36. > :27:40.winning line. But this is a disaster. It is a disaster because
:27:40. > :27:44.it is a top down re organisation. The reforms that are very necessary
:27:44. > :27:47.could have been done, practically all of them, without any
:27:47. > :27:53.legislation, let alone a bill that is three times the size of the one
:27:53. > :27:58.that created the NHS. It is a total mess. There is a danger for Labour.
:27:58. > :28:03.You are saying it has since asked - - disaster and Andy Burnham told me
:28:03. > :28:08.it is privatisation. Mr Miliband has gone at it four weeks in a row
:28:08. > :28:11.at PMQs and in at least three out of four he has done pretty well.
:28:12. > :28:14.But if in a few years' time, not much has changed and the health
:28:14. > :28:20.service is still doing what the health service does, you are in a
:28:20. > :28:23.weaker position. Yes, but that is not going to happen. The challenge
:28:23. > :28:28.for the NHS is to make efficiency savings that are ploughed back into
:28:28. > :28:32.frontline care. That was our policy. They are being asked to do that at
:28:32. > :28:36.the same time as this spaghetti junction of commission groups is
:28:36. > :28:39.set up. What the Lib Dems did last year made it worse. The stopping
:28:39. > :28:42.and listening exercise meant that at the time of the next election
:28:42. > :28:48.there will be all of these different commissioning bodies.
:28:48. > :28:52.That makes the whole thing more complex. When the GP who has led on
:28:52. > :28:56.practice based commissioning, the most innovative, when he turned
:28:56. > :29:01.against it that was a seminal moment for the bill. And anything
:29:01. > :29:10.that goes wrong in the NHS from now one can be blamed on the bill and
:29:11. > :29:17.on the Government. James Murdoch, did he go, or was he pushed? He was
:29:17. > :29:22.pushed. But you're the insider. You used to be the editor of the Sunday
:29:22. > :29:27.Times. Seriously, is he finished? Not finished, but among the walking
:29:27. > :29:31.wounded, I would say. Unlike his father, he does not care about
:29:31. > :29:34.newspapers and particularly does not like tabloid newspapers. It was
:29:34. > :29:39.James that talked Rupert into closing down the News of the World,
:29:39. > :29:43.something Rupert regrets now and wishes he had not closed it down.
:29:43. > :29:48.Although James was not there when the hacking happen, he thinks that
:29:48. > :29:53.James did a bad job in handling the crisis. He has moved right out of
:29:53. > :29:57.favour. He is no longer be obvious heir apparent. He has moved him
:29:57. > :30:02.into television. Rupert is back and getting ink on his fingers. But
:30:02. > :30:05.there is still a major problem for James Murdoch, which is that I am
:30:05. > :30:10.told the select committee report will be devastating on him. And it
:30:10. > :30:14.could even raise issues - although he has been moved into television,
:30:14. > :30:18.he is chairman of BSkyB, not owned by Murdoch but a major public
:30:19. > :30:22.company - and if it is devastating, people will say, you are not a fit
:30:22. > :30:27.and proper person to be chairman of a public company. I know that a
:30:27. > :30:30.number of changes have been made on the BSkyB board, and you would call
:30:30. > :30:40.its succession planning. They have somebody in mind to take over if
:30:40. > :30:52.
:30:52. > :30:58.Leveson, this relations - you are a former Home Secretary, the police
:30:58. > :31:01.and Northern Ireland, as Sue Akers, what do you make of it? Sue Akers
:31:01. > :31:04.interestingly was putting forward what she thinks happened but there
:31:04. > :31:07.was no defence from News International to this, much of
:31:07. > :31:11.information is coming from News International itself. I feel pretty
:31:11. > :31:17.strongly about this. I was in post when The Guardian story broke about
:31:17. > :31:22.Gordon Taylor in 2009. I was the Home Secretary and looked John
:31:22. > :31:26.Yates in the eye and said what's going on here? And was assured as
:31:26. > :31:31.my predecessors had and others have in the past was assured. I asked
:31:31. > :31:34.about John Prescott in particular, I asked about John in particular.
:31:34. > :31:39.They said there's no evidence that John Prescott's phone had been
:31:39. > :31:42.hacked. It had. The evidence was there, we now know. When we look
:31:42. > :31:46.back now something sinister was happening in this country, although
:31:46. > :31:52.we vaguely could see it at the time, it's only now that it really
:31:52. > :31:55.strikes you. There was this incestous relationship between News
:31:55. > :32:01.International and the Labour Government. They were in and out of
:32:01. > :32:05.each other's offices day after day. Coupled with an incestous
:32:05. > :32:09.relationship with the police, which made News International think we
:32:09. > :32:13.have got the Government squared, we have got the police squared, we can
:32:13. > :32:18.walk on water. We are above the law. It was for a democracy really
:32:18. > :32:21.unhealthy. It's the kind of thing you would get in Chicago. With
:32:21. > :32:25.respect, I wouldn't sort of rush to the defence of governments, but
:32:25. > :32:29.look, you know governments getting close to major newspaper
:32:29. > :32:36.proprietors, it's always happened. Governments have always wanted to
:32:36. > :32:40.have a good press. I did hear Charlie Faulkner making the point
:32:40. > :32:45.Andrew made. I agree, we were too close. But this is a completely
:32:45. > :32:49.different - I wouldn't equate that with bribing public servants,
:32:49. > :32:54.having a network, this web of corrupt officials that the
:32:54. > :32:58.newspapers had built up and... Apparently a system which generated
:32:58. > :33:02.cash that could be paid to these people in large dollars. If you
:33:02. > :33:04.were a policeman and you see that News International - these people
:33:04. > :33:08.that the police were seeing from News International would say to the
:33:08. > :33:13.police oh well, when I spoke to the Prime Minister last night or when I
:33:13. > :33:17.spoke to the Chancellor or when I spoke to the Home Secretary or
:33:17. > :33:22.Alastair Campbell, that intimidates police as well, they think this
:33:22. > :33:27.newspaper group has it all. That didn't help, you are right. Alan is
:33:28. > :33:34.saying he didn't get a horse. didn't, unfortunately. I didn't get
:33:34. > :33:37.a push bike. Work experience, is that causing the Lib Dems problems?
:33:37. > :33:42.It's a funny one this, because my own feel something that work
:33:42. > :33:47.experience is a very good idea and a lot of voices have piped up to
:33:47. > :33:51.point this out. But you know, they have backed down on it, if the
:33:52. > :33:56.scheme survives and it's seen to help. Youth unemployment I think is
:33:56. > :34:00.a big, big issue and a lot of people, not just on the left, not
:34:00. > :34:04.just traditional Lib Dem leftish voters leaving the party, do care
:34:04. > :34:08.about this passionately, so if they can show they're doing a lot about
:34:08. > :34:12.this and keep on this agenda on education, I know that Alan takes
:34:12. > :34:16.great interest in as well t will help. One final question for you
:34:17. > :34:21.since we have a Lib Dem here tonight. If the Tories can't
:34:21. > :34:26.deliver Lords reform for Mr Clegg, do you turn around and say you
:34:26. > :34:31.ain't getting the boundary changes then? Well, the question of the
:34:31. > :34:36.boundary change deal that was done... We all thought that was for
:34:36. > :34:42.the AV referendum and you got that. Yes, but it didn't turn out to to
:34:42. > :34:44.well as you know! That wasn't the deal. I think you have to forgive
:34:44. > :34:50.the Lib Dems finally being in Government, after all these years
:34:50. > :34:53.for trying their dammest to reform the House of Lords, which is a long
:34:53. > :34:56.cherished aim of the party and its predecessor parties and they'll do
:34:56. > :34:58.everything they can. You haven't told me whether it's conditional on
:34:58. > :35:06.boundary changes, though. But we have run out of time. Open to
:35:06. > :35:10.definition. You played for time very well well there. Thank you.
:35:10. > :35:13.Now they shoot horses, don't they? Well, no actually, turns out they
:35:13. > :35:23.don't, not if they're Metropolitan Police horses. They just lend them
:35:23. > :35:24.
:35:24. > :35:26.out to editors with whom they are unhealthily cosy,. Such as call-me-
:35:27. > :35:29.Dave's best mate, Rebekah Brookes, the flame-haired media medusa and
:35:29. > :35:32.break-out star of the hacking scandal, who apparently stabled a
:35:32. > :35:35.'dibble dobbin' for over a year, before returning it to the police,
:35:35. > :35:37.in a reportedly poor condition. She probably made him read the Sun
:35:37. > :35:41.every morning. Sounds like a job for Inspector
:35:41. > :35:44.Knacker of the Yard if you ask me. But you can't expect them to
:35:44. > :35:46.investigate the press. That's not what they're there for! In the
:35:46. > :35:56.meantime, we've begun our own investigation and put tabloid
:35:56. > :36:00.
:36:00. > :36:06.Rupert Murdoch's new Sunday tabloid could not have been launched ahead
:36:06. > :36:10.of a more difficult week for the media mogul as the Met gave their
:36:10. > :36:13.eagerly awaited toefd the Leveson inquiry, even more damming re-
:36:13. > :36:18.hraoeugss -- revelations have come out showing how some of the
:36:18. > :36:22.headlines emerged. The current assessment it reveals a
:36:22. > :36:26.network of corrupted officials. News International keeps having to
:36:26. > :36:31.reach for its chequebook as celebrities continue to win huge
:36:31. > :36:36.damages for illegal phone hacking. What I have discovered is the
:36:36. > :36:39.litigation has gone on has sickened and disgusted me. Nothing was
:36:39. > :36:42.deemed off limits by those who pursued me and my family to make
:36:43. > :36:47.money for a multinational news corporation. Has the pressure got
:36:47. > :36:55.too much for James Murdoch? His resignation makes you wonder who is
:36:55. > :37:00.going to be left standing in the world of the red tops?
:37:00. > :37:04.We are back with Abi Titmuss, welcome back to the programme.
:37:04. > :37:06.nice to be back, I have missed you all terribly. We have missed you
:37:06. > :37:10.too. You had an extraordinary relationship with the tabloids that
:37:10. > :37:14.you don't have now. Looking back what do you make of it? Yes, I have
:37:14. > :37:17.had a lot of fun with the tabloid press over the last decade. I have
:37:17. > :37:23.to start by saying, I wouldn't be here sitting here if it wasn't for
:37:23. > :37:27.the press. They created me, but as I said earlier in the show, that
:37:27. > :37:33.they almost destroyed me emotionally as well actually and my
:37:33. > :37:38.family. So, it started off, I was thrust into the spotlight through
:37:38. > :37:43.no choice of my own and they fed off me. Did you Did you encourage
:37:43. > :37:49.it at one stage? Not at the very start, but as it developed yes it
:37:49. > :37:54.sort of became a relationship where we were feeding off each other
:37:54. > :37:57.which for me blossomed into a toxic co-dependency if I am honest. But
:37:57. > :38:00.it was me trying to take some semblance of control over what was
:38:00. > :38:04.happening in my life and the way it was spiralling out of control and
:38:04. > :38:07.things that they were doing. I knew for a long time that they were
:38:07. > :38:12.hacking my phone. No one believed me. Did you try to do anything
:38:12. > :38:17.about it when you knew that? didn't know what to do. I changed
:38:17. > :38:24.my number lots of times. That still didn't stop it? No, no. If it was
:38:25. > :38:29.as simple as that - oh, Andrew! You probably know that being a former
:38:29. > :38:33.editor. Just checking. I did, of course and changed my security
:38:33. > :38:39.number and those things. It's not an uncommon tale for the tabloids
:38:39. > :38:43.to build up somebody into a celebrity and then turn on them.
:38:43. > :38:46.They're creating characters that they can then create stories about.
:38:46. > :38:50.It's a story-Stelling. One of the first things ever written about me
:38:50. > :38:55.and they called me angel nurse. I remember thinking that's nice and
:38:55. > :38:58.also thinking but I am not an angel and I wasn't a full-time nurse at
:38:58. > :39:05.that point, I was a drama student. And also in that headline itself I
:39:05. > :39:09.could see... Other than that it was accurate! It worried me, I thought
:39:09. > :39:15.I can't stay angel nurse in a tabloid for long. They're going to
:39:15. > :39:22.turn. Was there a time, particular time you thought I have got in too
:39:22. > :39:28.deep and sold my soul? Yes, many times actually. But as I said, I
:39:28. > :39:31.think it becomes such a toxic co- depenency and because of the things
:39:31. > :39:34.they had been writing about me and I have had journalists that I have
:39:34. > :39:40.met since saying we used to make up things all the time. There's always
:39:40. > :39:43.a grain of truth in every story, but because it had become - my
:39:43. > :39:47.self-esteem had become low and I had become unhappy because of of
:39:47. > :39:50.what was happening and there's a lovely notion you can hop on a
:39:50. > :39:55.train back to a village called obscurity but when you are really
:39:55. > :39:59.in the spotlight on on the front pages every day it's not that easy.
:39:59. > :40:01.There's no such village. I couldn't go back to my old job as a nurse, I
:40:01. > :40:06.had left that. That was becoming difficult. I remember the last few
:40:06. > :40:12.days and weeks as a nurse Wye stop wearing my name badge because it
:40:12. > :40:16.was impossible. But you did get out, you got away from this relationship
:40:16. > :40:21.before the hacking scandal broke. But the breaking of the hacking
:40:21. > :40:23.scandal brought you back into the story again. Yes, it's odd, but
:40:23. > :40:26.watching the news with great interest at the moment and of
:40:26. > :40:30.course I have sued News International. And settled? It's
:40:30. > :40:33.got to be said I am happy for Charlotte Church she's done well
:40:33. > :40:37.and been brave in the way she's spoken out but it's got to be
:40:37. > :40:42.remembered we have all sued them, not for what they've written about
:40:42. > :40:45.us or treatment of us but simply for the hacking our phones. It's a
:40:45. > :40:49.business relationship when you are in the public eye. If I step on to
:40:49. > :40:52.a red carpet it's a known deal that I am giving a picture, they're
:40:52. > :40:58.taking a picture. It's a give and take thing, but that doesn't mean
:40:58. > :41:01.you can follow me and my family, hack into my phone. They think they
:41:02. > :41:04.own you? In a democracy you know it's the corruption and level of
:41:04. > :41:07.power and control that they did have. They thought they were
:41:07. > :41:12.untouchable. They did. Has the hacking scandal and this
:41:12. > :41:16.investigation now into the police, has it changed tabloid culture
:41:16. > :41:21.fundamentally? I don't know, we will have to wait and see about
:41:21. > :41:25.that. The Sun on Sunday was a subdued Sunday paper. It's a wonder
:41:25. > :41:28.they had any journalists to turn it out actually. It's changed it for
:41:28. > :41:33.now, the question is for how long will it have changed it. My My
:41:33. > :41:37.guess it will bounce back at some point. You don't think this is a
:41:37. > :41:42.watershed, they're behaving until we lose our attention on the matter
:41:42. > :41:46.and you think they'll go back to old ways? I think the reason there
:41:46. > :41:50.was a public outcry really was if it had just been celebrities I
:41:50. > :41:54.don't think - people would have just shrugged, it's because of
:41:54. > :41:58.ordinary people that were involved. The trouble with tabloid culture is
:41:58. > :42:02.it requires a constant supply of victims likerant MPs, not looking
:42:02. > :42:06.at anybody, and misbehaving footballers, fallen rock stars, but
:42:06. > :42:11.it's when ordinary folk become involved, bereaved parents who
:42:11. > :42:15.never sought fame that then things are different. On the front pages
:42:15. > :42:18.of all the papers and the news. Absolutely. I understand. I wonder
:42:18. > :42:22.whether there isn't going to be a change. I think the Leveson report
:42:22. > :42:28.is sa wakeup call. There's clearly going to be a tougher Press
:42:28. > :42:31.Complaints Commission. I think the law's got tougher now. There will
:42:31. > :42:35.be times when they can't help themselves. See what comes from
:42:35. > :42:41.Leveson, I agree with Michael there's no sign yet, that quote by
:42:41. > :42:45.Charlotte Church, they're only sorry they got caught. I think the
:42:45. > :42:48.culture is still there. They don't believe in resepl beings --
:42:48. > :42:54.reseplings. Do you think it's changed, not just for the short-
:42:54. > :42:57.term or just for the short-term? think that the best story I ever
:42:58. > :43:01.saw was a massive picture of me on the front page I think of The Sun
:43:01. > :43:04.and a tiny picture of the fact Ronald Reagan had died, if that's
:43:04. > :43:12.news, I don't know what is. Hopefully things will change.
:43:12. > :43:15.We will have you back and see if it has changed. Thank you.
:43:15. > :43:17.That's your lot for tonight folks, but with Michael's quiff and air of
:43:17. > :43:19.exotic mystery and Alan's super- cool threads, and mod-tastic
:43:19. > :43:24.guitar-playing the frankly unnerving resemblance to the iconic
:43:24. > :43:29.Morrissey and Marr has not gone unnoticed in the This Week office.
:43:29. > :43:31.Though most things do pass them by. So we leave you with today's news
:43:31. > :43:34.that call-me-Dave's favourite band, The Smith's, might actually get
:43:34. > :43:39.back together - but on one condition. According to Johnny Marr,
:43:39. > :43:46.Cameron and Clegg must call time on the coalition love affair first.
:43:46. > :43:53.Nighty night, don't let Morrissey bite!
:43:53. > :43:58.# And there's a double decker bus crashes into us