:00:19. > :00:23.Tonight, we present an American Starring Barack and Michelle, and
:00:23. > :00:28.Dave and Sam. Forget the Carringtons. As the Camerons are
:00:28. > :00:34.given the red carpet treatment, the BBC's top man Nick Robinson
:00:34. > :00:40.explains the storyline. This was not a simple soap opera, it was a
:00:40. > :00:45.full-blown Hollywood romance. All that was missing was the final kiss.
:00:45. > :00:49.The president and PM tried to make reassuring noises about the
:00:49. > :00:55.conflict in Afghanistan. The former head of the British Army, Richard
:00:55. > :00:59.Dannatt, says politicians must hold their nerve under fire. The tragic
:00:59. > :01:03.loss last week of six of our young soldiers in Afghanistan has once
:01:03. > :01:07.again brought the future of our mission there into the frame. If we
:01:07. > :01:14.succumb to the pressure to withdraw early, I believe there is a serious
:01:15. > :01:20.risk that we will risk all we have achieved so far. And as some
:01:20. > :01:27.drummers couples attend the state dinner, back home, the fight for
:01:27. > :01:37.gay marriage takes centre stage. Simon Callow accept our invitation.
:01:37. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:55.I do. So, who did shoot J R? Evening. Welcome. The Goldman Sachs
:01:55. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:02.of BBC current affairs, This Week. Unlike the soul who resigned from
:02:02. > :02:06.that company, I have also been labouring under delusions. I also
:02:06. > :02:10.thought I was working for something worthwhile, that our mission was to
:02:10. > :02:16.bring the finest public service broadcasting TV to your living
:02:16. > :02:20.rooms. But after almost ten years of selfless service, I now see the
:02:20. > :02:25.true trajectory of this show's culture, its people and identity,
:02:25. > :02:35.and they have a lot in common with the real face of Goldman Sachs. Yes,
:02:35. > :02:35.
:02:35. > :02:41.I also work for a vampire place. I have also decided to resign, with a
:02:41. > :02:45.dramatic expose of the truth behind the facade. And let me tell you
:02:45. > :02:50.that never once can I remember us taking the interests of the licence
:02:51. > :02:54.payer, which we all call Muppets, into account. Never. Executive
:02:54. > :02:59.producers have come and gone, their pockets stuffed with gold, while
:02:59. > :03:03.viewers have been left with third- rate scrapes and embarrassing
:03:03. > :03:13.graphics. Production meetings never start with how we might speak truth
:03:13. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:17.to power, but how to get Blue nun to increase the size of its weekly
:03:17. > :03:21.deliveries. I have seen more effort going into drafting Diane's
:03:21. > :03:25.expenses and I'm in Michael's should span into a round-up of the
:03:25. > :03:32.week. I am off to start Monday as a runner on The One Show, whether
:03:32. > :03:35.proper values of BBC still shine bright. I am joined on the sofa
:03:35. > :03:39.tonight by two men who refuse to walk for Westminster plight. Think
:03:39. > :03:48.of them as the Chris Huhne and Eric Joyce of late-night political chat.
:03:48. > :03:54.I speak of course of Michael trainspotter Portillo, and trending
:03:54. > :03:57.as man on the left, Allen Johnson. Welcome to you both on my last show.
:03:57. > :04:04.That resignation was obviously your moment of the week. Alone and that,
:04:04. > :04:08.what was your moment of the week? was making a TV documentary this
:04:08. > :04:12.week, and I went to meet the finance minister of Germany,
:04:12. > :04:18.Wolfgang sure poor. He has been the scourge of the Greeks, and the man
:04:18. > :04:22.who has made into them for not paying their taxes and not bringing
:04:22. > :04:25.down their deficit. Now the deal has been done, so I was asking him
:04:25. > :04:31.whether he anticipates that there will be another Greek default just
:04:31. > :04:35.down the road, because the Greek economy is in headlong decline. I
:04:35. > :04:38.have been a ministers, so I knew what he would say. He said no, the
:04:38. > :04:42.Greeks will use this period for restructuring and come out at the
:04:42. > :04:48.other side. But nobody believes that. There will be a Greek default
:04:48. > :04:52.down the line. A bit of time has been bought. But the economy is in
:04:52. > :04:58.freefall. Yes, and there are other economies in the Eurozone tanking
:04:58. > :05:03.as well. That has cheered me up. What was your moment of the week?
:05:03. > :05:06.Another great man, Dennis Skinner. His question that PMQs was typical
:05:06. > :05:10.of him in that he managed in one question to get in the fact that
:05:10. > :05:14.Nick Clegg should be embarrassed for not being invited to go to
:05:15. > :05:19.America, he also raised a thing about Cameron and the horse, which
:05:19. > :05:25.will run and run. And a sting in the tail to try and divide the
:05:25. > :05:28.coalition. It was a typical, vintage Skinner performance. I also
:05:28. > :05:34.thought Nick Clegg answered much more prime-ministerial leave and
:05:34. > :05:43.Cameron did a few weeks ago says, when he had another Skinner-type
:05:44. > :05:49.missile. Whereas Nick Clegg was, I thought, very elegant. We were
:05:49. > :05:51.watching it on the Daily Politics. He seemed to have more confidence
:05:51. > :05:54.and like it, rather than being cowed by it.
:05:54. > :05:58.Now, Afghanistan has been centre stage this week in Washington, with
:05:58. > :06:02.mounting pressure on both the US and UK governments to bring forward
:06:02. > :06:07.troop withdrawal in the wake of recent budgets. Kabul's President
:06:07. > :06:10.Karzai today called on NATO troops to leave Afghan villages, and the
:06:10. > :06:15.Taliban have suspended peace talks with the Americans. So are we doing
:06:15. > :06:19.more harm than good after ten years of conflict? Or do we have a
:06:19. > :06:29.responsibility to finish what we started? General Richard Dannatt is
:06:29. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:35.here with his take on the week. It has been a difficult time in
:06:35. > :06:41.Afghanistan recently. Just last week, we saw the tragic loss of six
:06:41. > :06:44.more soldiers, making a total of 404 soldiers, sailors, airmen and
:06:44. > :06:49.Marines who have lost their lives in Afghanistan, with all the impact
:06:49. > :06:52.for the mission and on their families. And a few days ago, an
:06:53. > :06:57.American staff sergeant ran amok, killing 16 innocent civilians in
:06:57. > :07:02.the Kandahar area. It begs the question of where we go from here.
:07:02. > :07:06.Do we see this through to the end of 2014, the current policy? Or do
:07:06. > :07:12.we pack up and come home early? These are important issues which
:07:12. > :07:18.must be discussed. First, let's remember why we are in Afghanistan
:07:18. > :07:22.in the first place. It was, of course, in 2001, 9/11, that Al-
:07:22. > :07:26.Qaeda exported its violence to New York and Washington. And it had
:07:26. > :07:30.done so in many incidents prior to that. It was from Afghanistan where
:07:30. > :07:33.Al-Qaeda had established training bases that those operations were
:07:33. > :07:39.planned and mounted. The West had no alternative but to flush the
:07:39. > :07:44.Taliban, who were supporting Al- Qaeda, and Al-Qaeda out. We have
:07:44. > :07:48.done that well. The big issue is, when should our combat mission end?
:07:48. > :07:51.This is what David Cameron and Barack Obama have been discussing
:07:51. > :07:57.in the States in the last few days. Our Prime Minister has already said
:07:57. > :08:03.our combat mission will end by the end of 2014. So we have to get this
:08:03. > :08:08.right, and the timing is critical. At the end of the day, our British
:08:08. > :08:12.armed forces, our soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines, have borne the
:08:12. > :08:15.burden of this. We have to look after them. Yes, the army will get
:08:15. > :08:19.smaller and there will be redundancies, but these are about
:08:19. > :08:24.people, and we have to look after them. Only today, the case is being
:08:24. > :08:27.made to make sure we pay our people properly. We are not trying to make
:08:27. > :08:32.Afghanistan into a perfect democracy or like a Western country,
:08:32. > :08:36.but sufficiently stable so that people, if they want to, can live a
:08:36. > :08:41.reasonable life. That is what it is about. We are giving them an
:08:41. > :08:47.opportunity. They can take it or they can choose not to take it. The
:08:47. > :08:50.bottom line is this. We have made ourselves safer by facing down Al-
:08:50. > :08:54.Qaeda in Afghanistan. We are now giving the Afghans the opportunity
:08:54. > :08:58.to live in a more stable environment. That is good for them
:08:58. > :09:07.and good for us. It will prevent Al-Qaeda coming back. If we get
:09:07. > :09:12.this right, that is a legacy to be proud of.
:09:12. > :09:17.Richard Dannatt joins us now. Almost everything that has happened
:09:17. > :09:23.in the past ten days would suggest that we are now doing more harm
:09:23. > :09:30.than good in Afghanistan? That is one way you could look at it.
:09:30. > :09:35.Certainly, the loss of six soldiers a week ago was Caddick, as was the
:09:35. > :09:39.404 that we have lost -- tragic. The Staff Sergeant running amok and
:09:39. > :09:45.killing 16 civilians was completely inexcusable. But if you put this in
:09:45. > :09:51.the context of the whole campaign, these are unfortunate incidents.
:09:51. > :09:56.But we have been in Afghanistan since late 2001, and in southern
:09:56. > :10:01.Afghanistan since the middle of 2006. Progress has been made. But
:10:01. > :10:05.people often say, don't you study your history? We have lost all the
:10:05. > :10:10.other was in Afghanistan. We are not fighting the Afghans. We are
:10:10. > :10:14.not trying to occupy their country. It was firstly about getting rid of
:10:14. > :10:18.Al-Qaeda, which has been done. It has made the West safe. You could
:10:18. > :10:23.argue about the other places that Al-Qaeda has been dispersed into.
:10:23. > :10:29.Now it has a question of making Afghanistan sufficiently stable.
:10:29. > :10:33.Then we withdraw. We do not want to stay there. It is their country.
:10:33. > :10:37.The face we are in now is the progressive handing over, province
:10:38. > :10:43.by province, to the Afghan national secure G-forces, who are
:10:43. > :10:46.increasingly cable, so we can bring our troops back. If Michael, we
:10:46. > :10:52.were struggling last week to give a rationale for staying in
:10:52. > :10:56.Afghanistan. Are you convinced by the General? I thought the
:10:56. > :11:01.general's film left out a couple of points. One is the failure, after
:11:01. > :11:06.the driving out of Al-Qaeda in 2001, to consolidate the achievement in
:11:06. > :11:11.the country, which led to the second campaign in 2006. In that
:11:11. > :11:14.period, we were distracted by Iraq. That was a major error. That is why
:11:14. > :11:19.this has lasted for ten years. Secondly, the general is still
:11:19. > :11:25.talking about the end of 2014. There has been a massive loss of
:11:25. > :11:29.political willpower. The president and Prime Minister are now talking
:11:29. > :11:32.about the cessation of combat activities by the middle of 2013. I
:11:32. > :11:37.do not believe there is long enough in that window to bring the Afghan
:11:37. > :11:40.forces and police up to the level required. Therefore, I'm afraid I
:11:40. > :11:46.think there is a substantial prospect that after we withdraw,
:11:46. > :11:51.there will be chaos. I would agree with the first point. If I have had
:11:51. > :11:54.longer in that film, I would have covered it. If you trace the recent
:11:54. > :11:59.history of Afghanistan, the West failed Afghanistan when the
:11:59. > :12:04.Russians left in 1989. We should have invested in that country them.
:12:04. > :12:08.We did not. A terrible civil war followed, which produced the failed
:12:08. > :12:14.state and the space into which Al- Qaeda went. You are right that we
:12:14. > :12:19.should have done more. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda were kicked out --
:12:19. > :12:24.should have been kicked out in 2002. You mentioned the war in Iraq. That
:12:24. > :12:28.is an interesting point. Although this figure of 2014 has been set
:12:28. > :12:32.for getting combat troops out, all the signals from London and
:12:32. > :12:36.Washington are that in terms of a combat role of patrolling and
:12:36. > :12:41.fighting as opposed to being hauled up in a base - middle of 2013.
:12:41. > :12:44.Let's see what comes out of the next summit in Chicago and what is
:12:44. > :12:49.really being discussed behind closed doors by Barack Obama and
:12:49. > :12:53.David Cameron. There we are seeing a progressive handover of the
:12:53. > :12:58.security operation to the Afghan National Army. That may be speeded
:12:58. > :13:04.up. But if that is speeded up artificially for political purposes,
:13:04. > :13:10.we risk prejudicing what we have achieved. It has to be done on a
:13:10. > :13:20.conditions based programme. 2014 is the end date, but let's not do it
:13:20. > :13:22.
:13:22. > :13:27., Alan Johnson, the media want to get the combat troops out as
:13:27. > :13:34.quickly as possible. If they could do it before 2014, they would do it.
:13:34. > :13:37.I agree. The Taliban have broken off discussions before now,
:13:37. > :13:44.although not over the burning of the Koran or the murder of the 16
:13:44. > :13:50.civilians, but because they will not work with President Karzai. We
:13:50. > :13:56.are negotiating with the Taliban from a position of weakness. That
:13:56. > :14:00.is the problem. We want to leave in a condition where girls can go to
:14:00. > :14:04.school and well we do not go back to a medieval state. President
:14:04. > :14:13.Karzai has already issued a new rule banning women from even been
:14:13. > :14:18.able to walk on the street on their Why would the Taliban bothered to
:14:18. > :14:21.negotiate with us? They do not think President Karzai is
:14:21. > :14:25.legitimate. They know we are on the way out. They read the opinion
:14:25. > :14:29.polls and they know that public opinion in Washington, London,
:14:29. > :14:36.Britain and America has turned against this. They can wait forever.
:14:36. > :14:40.Why would they bother? This is a fair point. It is worth looking at
:14:40. > :14:44.this issue from the Afghan people's point of view. They have had the
:14:44. > :14:47.experience of living under a Taliban regime in the past. Do they
:14:47. > :14:51.want to go back and live under a Taliban regime in the future, with
:14:51. > :14:55.the repression of women that we have seen in the past, public
:14:56. > :14:59.executions? It was a miserable society the Taliban created. What
:14:59. > :15:03.we have done, and we must not lose sight of this, is to give the
:15:03. > :15:07.majority of the Afghan people the opportunity of a better life. It is
:15:07. > :15:12.up to them to choose that, or to fall back on the Taliban. That is
:15:12. > :15:17.the issue for them, rather than for us. We went with the Americans to
:15:17. > :15:21.Afghanistan not to make it a better place but to get rid of Al-Qaeda
:15:22. > :15:28.after 9/11. Now, Al-Qaeda has gone from Afghanistan, so why are we
:15:28. > :15:32.still there? When was there last a terrorist attack planned in
:15:32. > :15:35.Afghanistan on Britain? When did that happen? There has been the
:15:35. > :15:40.most momentous mission creep during the time that we have been there.
:15:40. > :15:43.Al-Qaeda was dealt with pretty quickly. After that, we declared
:15:43. > :15:48.that the Taliban was our enemy. It was never clear to me why we did
:15:48. > :15:51.that because the Taliban were not launching terrorist attacks.
:15:51. > :15:55.Blair government extended the mission to say that we have to get
:15:55. > :15:59.girls to school and make it a better place. It has also been
:15:59. > :16:03.supported by the UN. Although we were making progress against the
:16:03. > :16:09.Taliban, we could say that girls were going to school. -- although
:16:09. > :16:12.we were not. Unfortunately, if that is not going to be the enduring
:16:12. > :16:18.legacy of... If I can cut in, British soldiers have not given
:16:18. > :16:22.their lives to get Afghan girls to school. This was about making the
:16:22. > :16:25.country more secure. The wider mission, having neutralised Al-
:16:25. > :16:31.Qaeda in Afghanistan was to stabilise Afghanistan so it could
:16:31. > :16:38.not regress again to a space to which Al-Qaeda could flop back.
:16:38. > :16:42.When did we last kill someone from Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan? That is
:16:42. > :16:46.difficult to answer. I am told by the Americans that it is over two
:16:46. > :16:50.years. In that time, the NATO forces have lost 500 people. There
:16:51. > :16:54.has been no one from Al-Qaeda to kill, the people we have gone to
:16:55. > :16:59.clear-out, and yet we have lost 500 lives fighting an enemy that is not
:16:59. > :17:04.there anymore. You are ignoring the point that you are trying to
:17:04. > :17:08.stabilise the situation so that Al- Qaeda cannot come back. That is the
:17:08. > :17:13.wider, medium to long-term point. It is up to the Afghans. It is
:17:13. > :17:17.their country, not ours. I was listening earlier run to Question
:17:17. > :17:22.Time. Have we learned lessons, and did we apply them in Libya?
:17:22. > :17:25.Actually, we did apply some lessons rather better in Libya, to tread
:17:25. > :17:30.lightly in these countries and give it a light touch. That is an
:17:30. > :17:34.important lesson that must be taken forward. This is also a battle for
:17:34. > :17:37.hearts and minds. That has become more important. I do not understand
:17:37. > :17:40.how we can hope to win the battle of hearts and minds when US troops
:17:40. > :17:45.have been burning the Koran, urinating on the bodies of dead
:17:45. > :17:51.Taliban, 16 people killed when the soldier went berserk, drone attacks
:17:51. > :17:54.on the borders. We have lost the battle of hearts and minds. I think
:17:54. > :18:00.the point is that those are terrible incidents, but if they
:18:00. > :18:06.lead to a panic withdrawal, then we would have let down the Afghan
:18:06. > :18:11.people, and those soldiers would have died in vain. But the Karzai
:18:11. > :18:17.government is one of the most corrupt on earth. $11 billion least
:18:17. > :18:23.Afghanistan for Dubai every two years. $11 billion. But it is the
:18:23. > :18:28.government that we are having to work with. That is what they said
:18:28. > :18:32.in Vietnam. We were not in Vietnam. I think the final point, as I was
:18:32. > :18:35.saying, this is really about the Afghan people to choose whether
:18:35. > :18:40.they want the better life that our young people have died to give them.
:18:40. > :18:45.I hope they choose to accept that am not fall back on to the Taliban.
:18:45. > :18:48.The final word is actually about our young marines, soldiers, airmen
:18:48. > :18:54.and soldiers who have lost their lives there and the families that
:18:54. > :18:58.have been supporting them. I do not want to see this disappear into a
:18:58. > :19:08.political mess and say that the military let us down, because the
:19:08. > :19:19.
:19:19. > :19:23.military have done really well and we have to remember that. Now, are
:19:23. > :19:26.you still up for Portillo? Because it may be past your bedtime, but we
:19:27. > :19:29.offer more than just the late night political humiliation of Mr P. Much
:19:29. > :19:33.more. To be precise, writer, director, thespian, Simon Callow,
:19:33. > :19:35.who'll be telling us why he's wedded to the idea of gay marriage.
:19:36. > :19:39.Now, the Director General has revealed that all those nasty
:19:39. > :19:44.online comments we receive were the result of a sophisticated cyber
:19:44. > :19:48.attack by those dastardly Iranians, no less! We're sure there'll be
:19:48. > :19:57.nothing but praise for us from now on on the Twitter, the Facebook and
:19:57. > :20:00.So, along with the exchanges of kisses and pats on the bottom, the
:20:00. > :20:04.Obamas and Camerons swapped a series of gifts this week, the
:20:04. > :20:07.Obamas were given a "wiff waff" table along with a set of Penguin
:20:07. > :20:10.Classics, and the Cameron's a Braten 1000 Series Grill, that's a
:20:11. > :20:20.barbecue to you and me, and bean bag chairs with the Presidential
:20:21. > :20:24.
:20:24. > :20:28.seal for the kids. Call-me-Dave must have been pretty pleased he
:20:28. > :20:33.hadn't chosen to fly Ryanair again. Just imagine the cost of that
:20:33. > :20:36.excess baggage! Here's a man who never carries excess baggage, the
:20:36. > :20:46.BBC's political editor, Nick Robinson, with his round up of a
:20:46. > :21:01.
:21:01. > :21:05.Well, they have really laid out the red carpet for David and Samantha
:21:05. > :21:10.Cameron. They probably would have preferred the Queen and Duke of
:21:10. > :21:14.Edinburgh, but they will have to make do. And the Prime Minister not
:21:14. > :21:24.only gets this and a visit to the basketball, but a dinner almost a
:21:24. > :21:25.
:21:25. > :21:30.state dinner, and in 19 gun salute. -- own 19 gun salute. Off one plane
:21:30. > :21:34.and on to another. Not any plane. There Force One. Time, they said,
:21:35. > :21:38.for 80 minutes of serious discussion with the President, but
:21:38. > :21:43.perhaps he stole some of the Air Force One chocolates. These are the
:21:43. > :21:48.pictures they wanted the world to see - two regular guys cheering on
:21:48. > :21:55.Hot Club -- hot dogs, taking in the game. It was the President helping
:21:55. > :22:00.you to follow the game? He is giving me some tips. He is going to
:22:00. > :22:04.teach me cricket because I do not understand what is going on. David
:22:04. > :22:07.and Barack, as they call each other, look comfortable together, although
:22:07. > :22:11.I do not rate the Prime Minister's chances of getting the president to
:22:12. > :22:15.come to watch a full five-day international. So what is the
:22:15. > :22:20.secret of it? Well, the Prime Minister says of his opposite
:22:20. > :22:24.number, he is deeply reasonable and deeply rational buck -- rational,
:22:24. > :22:31.but he is very strong. It is good enough for him. Time for me to go
:22:31. > :22:34.to bed. For us journalists, these foreign trips are a mixture between
:22:34. > :22:38.a school outing and a visit to a high-security prison. We had to
:22:38. > :22:43.come to the White House before dawn to Oscar pressed -- a question in a
:22:43. > :22:46.news conference after 11am. But I am inspired by what the reporter
:22:46. > :22:51.from CBS Sports said to the Prime Minister and President at a
:22:51. > :22:56.basketball game last night. Before asking his question he said, it is
:22:56. > :23:02.indeed a blessing, a privilege and an honour. Who knows, maybe I
:23:02. > :23:06.should say that myself! If I do get a question, I have now got a way to
:23:06. > :23:09.cover my bald head when we are sitting outside in the Rose Garden.
:23:09. > :23:16.You may remember that President Bush had that friendly advice for
:23:16. > :23:22.me a few years ago. Better cover up your bald head. At last, the
:23:22. > :23:26.British embassy have come up with a solution. Down the ages, the
:23:26. > :23:30.special relationship, as we always have to call it, has been defined
:23:30. > :23:36.by images. Ronald Reagan dancing with Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair
:23:36. > :23:41.in those crunch hugging trousers next to George W Bush, when he
:23:41. > :23:44.joked about sharing the same toothpaste. And the same President
:23:44. > :23:48.with a rather different Prime Minister. Gordon Brown looking
:23:48. > :23:54.painfully awkward as he was spun round in the presidential golf
:23:54. > :23:59.buggy. Well, this is the latest in the photo album of the special
:23:59. > :24:04.relationship. David Cameron and his wife, Mrs Cameron, expected here on
:24:04. > :24:07.the south lawn of the White House, to be greeted by just a few 1000 of
:24:07. > :24:11.the President's closest British friends. There has been no doubting
:24:11. > :24:17.the warmth of the friendship between these two leaders and their
:24:17. > :24:20.wives. At the core of not just a special relationship but what they
:24:20. > :24:25.call an essential one. The President even wanted to impress
:24:25. > :24:32.his guests that he could speak English, just like the English do.
:24:32. > :24:35.David, we are chuffed to bits that you are here. I am looking forward
:24:35. > :24:42.to a greater matter. I am confident that together we are going to keep
:24:42. > :24:47.the relationship between our two grits Nations absolutely top-notch.
:24:47. > :24:50.-- between our two great nations. Beneath the public smiles, what
:24:50. > :24:56.they discussed in great nations could scarcely matter more - how to
:24:56. > :24:59.end the war in Afghanistan and avoid another in Syria, how to stop
:24:59. > :25:09.Iran's nuclear programme. The President said it could not nearly
:25:09. > :25:12.
:25:12. > :25:18.Because we have employed so many of the options available to us to
:25:18. > :25:23.persuade Iran to take a different course, the window for solving this
:25:23. > :25:29.issue diplomatically is shrinking. The President and Prime Minister
:25:29. > :25:33.could pat each other on the back. We have been speaking for an hour
:25:33. > :25:36.or so and not really said very much at all. But that would ignore the
:25:36. > :25:40.fact that although they did not want to be quoted, did not want to
:25:40. > :25:45.make news, did not want to compete with the striking images of their
:25:45. > :25:50.days together, they are talking about something truly significant -
:25:50. > :26:00.how to end one war and the possibility that in Syria and in
:26:00. > :26:04.
:26:04. > :26:07.Iran, two Moore might soon begin. - - two more. David and Samantha
:26:07. > :26:10.Cameron's visit to Washington DC was rounded off with a lavish
:26:10. > :26:14.dinner, complete with the Washington great and the good and
:26:14. > :26:20.the odd smattering of celebrity. George Clooney, Rory McIlroy,
:26:20. > :26:25.Richard Branson. Just one problem - the starter, Brussels sprouts. As
:26:25. > :26:35.no one told the Americans that we can't stand the things? -- has no
:26:35. > :26:38.one told them? Next stop, New York. David Cameron's trip to the United
:26:38. > :26:42.States will be remembered for so much - the basketball and the
:26:42. > :26:48.dinners and the mutual back- slapping. But perhaps it should be
:26:48. > :26:52.remembered for this, the Ground Zero memorial. Because in the end
:26:52. > :26:59.what matters about his talks with President Obama is whether he,
:26:59. > :27:06.whether they can find an end to the war whose roots lie deep in that
:27:06. > :27:11.black hole. Nick Robinson, finishing his report
:27:11. > :27:15.at Ground Zero. He has promised to bring me back a baseball cap. The
:27:15. > :27:20.UK Border Force will meet him when he arrives to make sure he has, or
:27:20. > :27:30.he may not be allowed in the country. We are joined by our
:27:30. > :27:31.
:27:31. > :27:37.favourite Anglo Brett -- the Brit. You can call me anything. I will
:27:37. > :27:42.call you Bonnie Greer. Good to see you. Do you think these British
:27:42. > :27:49.Prime Ministers get intoxicated by the power and the glory of
:27:49. > :27:53.Washington? Yes, it is kind of weird, actually. I hate to say it,
:27:53. > :27:56.but the United States has about three or four special relationship,
:27:56. > :28:02.as we know. There is one with Israel, the really special
:28:02. > :28:05.relationship. There is Ireland, Mexico, Canada. Canada is the first
:28:05. > :28:10.foreign country every President visits after the inauguration.
:28:10. > :28:13.There are all kinds of special relationships. Last year, the
:28:13. > :28:22.President said this was the essential relationship. That is a
:28:22. > :28:25.nice one. What I am not sure about, I do not quite understand, the
:28:25. > :28:33.Obama administration is kind of sniffy about Britain, it was when
:28:33. > :28:39.it came to power. We were getting briefed when I went to Washington
:28:39. > :28:44.that it was facing, this was going to be a West would facing, Pacific
:28:44. > :28:47.facing administration. What has changed? There has been an enormous
:28:47. > :28:50.change on both parts, because David Cameron was also making a
:28:50. > :28:55.relationship with India and China and was not going to be so closely
:28:55. > :28:59.associated with the United States. From Cameron's point of view, to be
:28:59. > :29:02.pictured alongside the President of the United States is the most
:29:02. > :29:07.fantastic photo opportunity. From the American point of view, the
:29:07. > :29:10.success of the Obama period has been the killing of Bin Laden. This
:29:10. > :29:15.is the President who is bringing the war in Afghanistan to an end.
:29:15. > :29:20.Therefore, the symbolism of her make -- having Cameron there is to
:29:20. > :29:23.stand by your strongest ally in the conflict. Also, remember this is a
:29:23. > :29:27.campaign year and this President is probably one of the most formidable
:29:27. > :29:32.politicians we will have seen in our lifetime. He ranks up there
:29:32. > :29:39.with Clinton and Blair, real politicians. And this is for the
:29:39. > :29:44.campaign year. Last night would have been at that dinner, a bunch
:29:44. > :29:53.of his supporters and all these people. So it is part politics and
:29:53. > :29:58.I am not sure anybody in Ohio knows who the British Prime Minister is,
:29:58. > :30:03.so I am not sure if -- sure it is such so huge campaign boost for Mr
:30:03. > :30:07.Cameron to be taken there by Obama. Alan, something must have changed
:30:07. > :30:12.in the foreign policy of the Obama administration. What is it? I do
:30:12. > :30:16.not think the special relationship would last long if we kept forcing
:30:16. > :30:25.them to listen to Mumford & Sons. But leaving that to one side
:30:25. > :30:29.because you do not know who they are, Obama is said to have
:30:29. > :30:34.described Cameron as a lightweight. So the relationship did not get off
:30:34. > :30:42.to a good start. But it is gold dust for Cameron to be sitting next
:30:42. > :30:49.to him. This is the leader of the Conservative Party. It would not
:30:49. > :30:52.have been politically right for him to see anyone of the Republicans,
:30:52. > :30:57.but the Americans would have no idea this was also a political
:30:57. > :31:03.leader. They do not know who he is. He and his wife are nice-looking,
:31:03. > :31:07.but they do not know who he is. I am sure the GOP must have been
:31:07. > :31:15.sitting there in their internecine warfare, thinking, this is a
:31:15. > :31:20.Conservative leader and he did not show up. It is not helpful to a
:31:20. > :31:26.British prime minister to be seen with people who may not win.
:31:26. > :31:31.problem is that if he saw one, he had to see them all. Exactly. And
:31:31. > :31:37.it is against protocol. But he came pretty close to endorsing President
:31:37. > :31:43.Obama's re-election with the words he used. He obviously believes
:31:44. > :31:48.Obama will win. Most people now do. Particularly given the state of the
:31:48. > :31:53.Republicans. He is making a bet that they are going to win. If they
:31:53. > :31:56.do not win, we could find ourselves in the situation we had with John
:31:56. > :31:59.Major and Bill Clinton. John Major was seen more or less to have
:31:59. > :32:07.campaigned against President Clinton, and we paid quite a price
:32:07. > :32:10.for that. The other part of it is that Obama will probably win, and
:32:10. > :32:17.he is sure enough up to prepare with what he may have to deal with
:32:17. > :32:23.- possibly Iran, possibly Syria. So he is making sure he has us as the
:32:23. > :32:29.back-up dies. That is a very important point. Alan, Mr Cameron
:32:29. > :32:34.went out of his way to praise the president's judgment and that he
:32:34. > :32:38.was someone you could trust, a man of integrity. We set the button for
:32:38. > :32:43.the West's position. So when it comes to potentially difficult
:32:43. > :32:47.decisions America could face in Iran or Syria or parts as yet
:32:47. > :32:53.unknown in the world, we are kind of locked in to this man's
:32:53. > :32:58.judgment? That must be part of Obama's strategy. Also, the fact
:32:58. > :33:03.that we are in Europe, but outside the Eurozone, helps with that
:33:03. > :33:07.relationship. But coming back to this point, don't forget that it
:33:07. > :33:10.was Cameron who invited me came over to the Conservative Party
:33:10. > :33:17.conference during the run-up to the presidential election last time.
:33:17. > :33:22.That might be another reason why it did not get off to a good start.
:33:22. > :33:27.Cameron has learnt from it. But at a time when we thought that after
:33:27. > :33:32.Iraq and Afghanistan, that Britain and America may not always be
:33:32. > :33:38.shoulder to shoulder on international developments, this
:33:38. > :33:43.meeting this week suggests that actually, you are? We are. Lord
:33:43. > :33:50.Dannatt who was here would no more than we do on the ground. But our
:33:50. > :33:54.intelligence and military ties, our research Thais, our banks are
:33:54. > :34:01.practically Anglo-American as well. These are being reinforced so that
:34:01. > :34:06.when the shift happens next year, the UK will be on the side of the
:34:06. > :34:11.US. It would be a huge decision for a British Prime Minister not to be
:34:11. > :34:19.alongside the US if they commit a further action. I do not think the
:34:19. > :34:22.more or conditions exist for the US to get embroiled in a war in Iran,
:34:22. > :34:32.nor indeed for his rare to get involved in such a war. But there
:34:32. > :34:38.is no way America will go into Iraq in an election year. The more
:34:38. > :34:42.difficult one is if Israel does in. That places a US President in an
:34:42. > :34:47.election year in a very difficult position. And therefore, Mr Cameron,
:34:47. > :34:51.too. And he needs his buddies. It is a very Chicago tactic - make
:34:51. > :34:59.sure you have your people lined up on the table so that he knows that
:34:59. > :35:03.he can pick up Dave, and he will show up. But that language that he
:35:03. > :35:08.used about Cameron, do you think it would be different to the language
:35:08. > :35:18.he would use about other heads of state? Absolutely. David Cameron is
:35:18. > :35:28.
:35:28. > :35:33.a youngish man, an affable man. And We had better leave it there. I bet
:35:33. > :35:37.Ed Miliband son was going like this when he saw these pictures! These
:35:37. > :35:47.pictures of Cameron will be run again and again, come our election
:35:47. > :35:51.
:35:51. > :36:01.Now, I have a difficult if one for you. Imagine for a moment that you
:36:01. > :36:04.are Nick Clegg. Try it. Go on. You, too, Bonnie. You are the ugly
:36:04. > :36:09.political duckling of British politics. You are down in the polls,
:36:09. > :36:12.disowned by your own party faithful. But at least you have got your man,
:36:12. > :36:16.that dreamy Call-Me-Dave, the sweet-talking die from the wrong
:36:16. > :36:20.side of the tracks who made a proposal and convinced you to lose
:36:20. > :36:24.your political virginity. Then imagine how it feels to see that
:36:25. > :36:31.very same day that in America, gallivanting around the White House
:36:31. > :36:36.Rose Garden with that home wrecker, Barack Obama. Did the Downing
:36:36. > :36:45.Street rose garden made nothing to you, David? We have decided to put
:36:46. > :36:49.- you guessed it - gay marriage in this week's spotlight.
:36:49. > :36:53.Two people are in love, they live together and suddenly one day they
:36:53. > :37:00.run out of conversation. Totally. They can't think of a single thing
:37:00. > :37:07.to say to each other. Panic. Then suddenly, it occurs to the chap
:37:07. > :37:15.that there is a way out of the deadlock. Which is? Ask her to
:37:15. > :37:19.marry him. Brilliant. Could we soon be watching a sequel - four gay
:37:19. > :37:25.weddings and a Funeral? If the government gets its way, gay
:37:25. > :37:30.couples may be able to tie the knot before the next election. This
:37:30. > :37:34.signifies and solemn eyes is their marriage in civil society. It is
:37:34. > :37:43.the state's view that we are there to facilitate that, encourage it
:37:43. > :37:49.and rejoice in it. David Cameron has made his own vows, claiming
:37:49. > :37:53.support from his own philosophy. do not support a gay marriage
:37:53. > :37:56.despite being a Conservative, I support it because I am a
:37:56. > :37:59.Conservative. But many are not ready to celebrate the impending
:38:00. > :38:05.nuptials yet. The head of the Catholic Church in Scotland called
:38:05. > :38:09.the plans a grotesques and version of human rights. So should we all
:38:09. > :38:13.be allowed to get hitched, no matter who we are and who we love?
:38:13. > :38:19.Fingers crossed, because the Blue nun reception in Gretna Green is
:38:20. > :38:29.already booked and paid for. And everybody is welcome, Simon, aren't
:38:30. > :38:33.
:38:33. > :38:37.they? The gay couple him Four Weddings were the only happy couple
:38:37. > :38:42.of the lot, but they were not married coma --, so what is the big
:38:43. > :38:45.deal? The big deal is that marriage is there. If you are a loving
:38:45. > :38:53.couple, you want to define yourself according to what is the norm. And
:38:53. > :38:59.there is no difference on the issue of loving commitment between a
:38:59. > :39:02.heterosexual or homosexual couple. If people say to you, you have got
:39:02. > :39:07.civil partnerships, they are legal and contain most of the legal
:39:07. > :39:12.rights of marriage, so what is wrong with that? It is a compromise.
:39:12. > :39:18.It is something which has been invented to deal with an unusual
:39:18. > :39:20.situation. But we are saying it is not an unusual situation. It is two
:39:20. > :39:25.people that love each other and which to commit themselves together
:39:25. > :39:28.for the rest of their lives. That is what we call a marriage. When
:39:28. > :39:37.civil partnerships were introduced, they were widely seen as an
:39:37. > :39:42.improvement. So but are they still seem by yourself as second class?
:39:42. > :39:47.They are a step in the right direction. And I can't see why we
:39:47. > :39:50.don't take that next step. Do you think most people who have gone for
:39:50. > :39:55.civil partnerships have done so when they would have gone for
:39:55. > :40:02.marriage? Without question. As Theresa May said today, many people
:40:02. > :40:05.refer to their civil partnerships as marriage. People within gay
:40:05. > :40:09.marriages or partnerships do refer to each other as husband and wife.
:40:09. > :40:12.In terms of the legal rights, for example on inheritance, that is
:40:12. > :40:17.pretty much the same as with marriage. But are there others
:40:17. > :40:23.where it is still second class? but I am aware of. But it seems
:40:23. > :40:27.from what you are saying that it is a matter of equality. Precisely.
:40:27. > :40:32.Why not? One can think of no other reason. If you go that far with a
:40:32. > :40:37.sieve or partnership, why not go the extra? Michael, where are you
:40:37. > :40:42.on this? The government has made an important clarification today. I
:40:42. > :40:48.don't know why they did not make it in the beginning. Theresa May has
:40:49. > :40:53.said this applies only to marriage is administered by the state, civil
:40:53. > :41:00.marriages in a registry office. town hall marriage. It is not just
:41:00. > :41:05.that churches will not be obliged to carry out gay marriages. They
:41:06. > :41:10.will continue to be illegal in churches. The Government is
:41:10. > :41:15.changing the law to make a game marriage in a registry office legal.
:41:15. > :41:20.They are not making any other change. At the moment, gay
:41:20. > :41:23.marriages will be legal for register offices. I do not know
:41:23. > :41:26.whether the gay community will still feel in a second class
:41:27. > :41:32.situation. But much of this row with the churches seems to have
:41:32. > :41:37.been unnecessary. I am puzzled by Pat, Simon. I knew the law was
:41:37. > :41:41.being changed to make civil marriage possible. That is within
:41:41. > :41:45.the government's remit. But as far as the Church is concerned, I
:41:45. > :41:53.thought the Government would not make that compulsory. But Michaelis
:41:53. > :42:00.saying it stays illegal? A church marriage between two people of the
:42:00. > :42:04.same sex will be illegal under the new dispensation. Will it? Yes.
:42:04. > :42:11.equality is still some way off. depends how you feel about religion.
:42:11. > :42:15.Some people feel quite strongly. Yes, but I would argue that a
:42:15. > :42:20.church may well decide that it does not wish for gay people to get
:42:20. > :42:27.married. But as long as we understand the that the Church will
:42:27. > :42:31.then regard gay people as somewhat less than other people, they do not
:42:31. > :42:35.get the full welcome to the church. I can see the Government saying, we
:42:35. > :42:40.are not going to force judges to do gay marriage. That is out of our
:42:40. > :42:50.remit, unlike civil ceremonies. But I do not understand how the
:42:50. > :42:50.
:42:50. > :42:55.Government can make it illegal. Exactly. I was the minister of the
:42:55. > :43:00.DTI at the time when civil punishments were introduced. His it
:43:00. > :43:03.was said that civil partnerships would occur in civil institutions.
:43:03. > :43:06.But if the Anglican Church decided that they wanted to have gay
:43:07. > :43:13.marriages after this legislation had gone through, no force on earth
:43:13. > :43:19.could stop them. In that sense, it is a matter for the Church. For but
:43:19. > :43:23.we have to acknowledge that the Anglican Church and Catholic Church
:43:23. > :43:27.are absolutely saying, you are inferior, in our view. A
:43:27. > :43:30.relationship between two ment or two women is inferior to a
:43:30. > :43:33.relationship between a man and woman. The average wedding in a
:43:33. > :43:38.church begins by saying of the sacrament of marriage was invented
:43:38. > :43:43.for the procreation and bringing up of children. So it is a fundamental
:43:43. > :43:46.part of what they think. That is obviously the case. But it is not
:43:46. > :43:51.actually part of the vows. Procreation does not come into that.
:43:51. > :43:56.That is all about having an holding and cherishing and loving in
:43:56. > :43:59.sickness, all those things we all believe. Sounds like as though you
:43:59. > :44:03.do not get as long as you get the civil marriage, you are not
:44:03. > :44:08.bothered. Are you thinking of getting married yourself? I have
:44:08. > :44:12.once or twice been asked by some charming people to marry them, but
:44:12. > :44:16.I don't think I am the marrying kind. If you say yes, can we get an
:44:16. > :44:20.invite? Simon, thank you for being with us. That is your lot for
:44:20. > :44:29.tonight. We are off to increase our chances of a heart attack by at
:44:29. > :44:33.least 25% with a red meat shawarma from Kebabylon on the Holloway Road,
:44:33. > :44:37.known to locals as north London's very own Dignitas. We leave you
:44:37. > :44:44.with the week's shock news, that our most popular export to the US