:00:18. > :00:26.# Raindrops keep falling on my head # And just like the guy whose feet
:00:26. > :00:29.are too big for... Tonight on This Week: as much of
:00:29. > :00:31.the country is officially in drought, the rain just keeps on
:00:31. > :00:34.falling on Westminster. Storm clouds continue to gather over the
:00:34. > :00:37.Prime Minister and the Government, as the Murdochs appear at the
:00:37. > :00:40.Leveson Inquiry. But Historian, Andrew Roberts, thinks it's all a
:00:40. > :00:44.storm in a tea cup. James and Rupert Murdoch might be forgiven
:00:44. > :00:47.for being a bit under the weather at the moment. But history shows
:00:47. > :00:51.they're quite right, a close relationship between press and
:00:51. > :00:54.politicians is sa good thing for democracy and so David Cameron also
:00:54. > :00:57.has nothing to worry about. It never rains but it pours.
:00:57. > :01:02.Miserable economic conditions in the UK as the economy falls back
:01:02. > :01:09.into recession. Journalist Kevin Maguire braves the weather on his
:01:09. > :01:13.political milk round. The Government's handling of the
:01:13. > :01:17.economy has been buffeted on all fronts. It's definitely the season
:01:17. > :01:20.for criticism. And they may not be singing in the rain on the BBC's
:01:20. > :01:26.hit show The Voice, but is talent really difficult to spot? Singer
:01:26. > :01:36.and celebrity Sinitta joins us in our own talent-free zone. I have
:01:36. > :01:40.been spotting talent forever, but the talent on This zap week is --
:01:40. > :01:47.Week is out of the world. Brollies at the ready. Get ready to
:01:47. > :01:50.have some fun splashing in the political puddles.
:01:50. > :01:52.Evenin all. Welcome to This Week. The week Britain slipped back into
:01:52. > :01:55.recession and everything else slipped the Murdoch family's mind.
:01:55. > :01:59.Must be something in the genes. Young Murdoch, can't "recall"
:01:59. > :02:02.crucial events. Old Murdoch, you just plain can't "remember". Pretty
:02:02. > :02:07.convenient catch-alls when it comes to questions about phone hacking,
:02:08. > :02:10.cover-ups, hush money and meetings to lobby British politicians. Their
:02:10. > :02:13.memory was pretty sharp, however, when it came to settling scores.
:02:14. > :02:16.Old Murdoch, while insisting he had no more power in Britain than the
:02:17. > :02:19.tea boy at the Auchenshuggle Bugle, took no prisoners, lashing out at
:02:20. > :02:22.everybody who'd crossed his path - from Gordon Brown to his butler;
:02:22. > :02:32.with his former editors, executives and lawyers all caught in the
:02:32. > :02:35.
:02:35. > :02:38.carnage. There were rumours his nervous lawyers had been putting
:02:38. > :02:41.Ritalin in his billycan to stop him from lashing out. Clearly, they
:02:41. > :02:43.needed something stronger. Like a gag. But the most serious damage
:02:43. > :02:46.was done during Young Murdoch's testimony, when he revealed a
:02:46. > :02:48.series of exchanges between a Murdoch lobbyist and the Culture
:02:48. > :02:51.Secretary Jeremy Hunt's special adviser, which showed that during
:02:51. > :02:58.the Murdoch bid for all of BSkyB, they'd been texting and e-mailing
:02:58. > :03:07.each other like demented teenage lovers. The SPAD obligingly fell on
:03:07. > :03:10.Jeremy's sword - hoping to spare his master. But, as they say in
:03:10. > :03:12.Edinbrugh, Mr Hunt's "jaikit is hingin' by a shuggily peg".
:03:12. > :03:15.Translation will follow on the website.
:03:15. > :03:18.Most seasoned media watchers missed all of this because when Old
:03:18. > :03:20.Murdoch testified he'd never as much asked for a cup of sugar from
:03:20. > :03:22.the Government, much less a �13 billion satellite system, they
:03:22. > :03:29.collapsed in convulsions of uncontrollable laughter, from which
:03:29. > :03:32.most have still to recover. Speaking of laughable people, I'm
:03:32. > :03:40.joined on the sofa tonight by two of Westminster's least credible
:03:40. > :03:42.witnesses. The Chuckle Sisters of late night political chat. I speak,
:03:42. > :03:51.of course, of #germanontheleft, Gisela Stuart and #sadmanonatrain,
:03:51. > :03:55.Michael Portillo. Your moment of the week, Michael? Earlier the
:03:55. > :03:59.public administration committee under the Conservative MP Bernard
:03:59. > :04:03.Jenkins produced a report critical of the Government. He is a man on a
:04:03. > :04:07.mission. I reflected on this and I think the analysis is wrong
:04:07. > :04:10.actually. The Government does have a strategy on the deficit, on
:04:10. > :04:15.schools on the health service, on welfare, it's a lot of strategy.
:04:15. > :04:22.It's got other problems. It has ceased to look Governmental, it's
:04:22. > :04:26.descended from the high ground into tittle tattle and silliness, like
:04:26. > :04:30.the tankers drivers and pasty-gate and that sort of thing and
:04:30. > :04:34.seriously this week what's happened is David Cameron, who promised to
:04:34. > :04:37.create a new politics after the MPs' expenses scandal, what's at
:04:37. > :04:41.stake here in the Murdoch question is that he hasn't really invented a
:04:41. > :04:45.new politics at all, it's looking like a seedy old politics.
:04:45. > :04:51.didn't mention he had a strategy for growth. We will come on to that
:04:51. > :04:53.later, because if he has it isn't working. It was almost Prime
:04:53. > :04:59.Minister questions time, which was meant to be more grownup and the
:04:59. > :05:02.last few have been really vicious and more unpleasant than any I have
:05:03. > :05:08.seen in all the years there. Two moments when Cameron was pushed
:05:08. > :05:12.into a corner and he was unnecessarily condescending and
:05:12. > :05:20.unpleasant. A new Birmingham MP asked a perfectly good question and
:05:20. > :05:25.he just went, well read. Then he insulted again David Winnick,
:05:25. > :05:31.referred to as one of Dad's Army. Insults are fine if they serve a
:05:31. > :05:34.purpose. Flashman moments. Bad- tempered and just really, he's got
:05:34. > :05:42.a problem with people who he disagrees with. There we go. That's
:05:42. > :05:45.our opening moments. Let's move on. The drought's going
:05:45. > :05:53.well, isn't it? Never realised a water shortage involved so much
:05:53. > :05:56.rain. But you didn't need a weatherman to know which way the
:05:56. > :05:59.wind was blowing when the James and Rupert Murdoch's swept back into
:05:59. > :06:02.town. Right on cue, the Sun King decreed it was time to rain on the
:06:02. > :06:05.Government's parade and promptly left the British political classes
:06:05. > :06:08.scrambling for dry land. So is this the end of a beautiful friendship?
:06:08. > :06:18.Historian Andrew Roberts hopes not and he's here with his Take of the
:06:18. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:36.The phone hacking scandal is in the past. It's the subject of court
:06:36. > :06:41.cases and huge payouts. And rightly so. Why is the nation gripped by
:06:41. > :06:46.this Leveson inquiry, a huge national inquiry into an otherwise
:06:46. > :06:49.guiltless industry? I am here in St Brides in Fleet Street, the
:06:49. > :06:57.journalists' Church where Rupert Murdoch recently gave �50,000. We
:06:57. > :07:01.are only a few doors down from a inquiry that's now turned into a
:07:01. > :07:05.kapbger radio court driven by commercial rivals and political
:07:05. > :07:09.enemies. The fact is that it's impossible to
:07:09. > :07:14.insulate politicians from press proprietors and we shouldn't even
:07:14. > :07:18.try. Very largely in the 18th century the British press came into
:07:18. > :07:23.existence because politicians wanted to prop gate their political
:07:23. > :07:26.views. In the 19th century Gladstone abolished the penny tax
:07:26. > :07:31.on newspapers precisely for that reason. Some press proprietors,
:07:31. > :07:35.such as Lord Beaver Brook who is commemorated here, have even sat in
:07:35. > :07:40.Cabinet. So why is Lord Leveson investigating something that has
:07:40. > :07:44.been so integral and so beneficial to British public life for so long?
:07:44. > :07:49.It's absolutely vital for democracy that the press and politicians
:07:49. > :07:52.should be in constant interaction. That's the way that the readers,
:07:52. > :07:55.the electorate, are able to find out what's going on, what's being
:07:55. > :07:59.done in their name. It's also the best way for politicians to find
:07:59. > :08:03.out what's popular, what's unpopular. It's completely
:08:03. > :08:08.ludicrous to expect David Cameron to have to write down every time he
:08:08. > :08:12.ever meets Rupert Murdoch. Nobody's forced to buy any kind of newspaper
:08:12. > :08:15.in Britain and certainly not forced to vote the way that they recommend.
:08:15. > :08:19.News International in the past has said vote Labour as well as vote
:08:19. > :08:25.Conservative. It's absolutely absurd to make Rupert Murdoch out
:08:26. > :08:28.to be some kind of a Darth Vader figure. In terms of the takeover of
:08:28. > :08:32.BSkyB, News International has done nothing wrong and all David Cameron
:08:32. > :08:37.wanted was a political ally that would give some equality and TV
:08:37. > :08:47.news and current affairs. It's what any party leader would have wanted
:08:47. > :08:50.
:08:50. > :08:53.If Leveson makes recommendation that is create more of a Chinese
:08:53. > :08:58.wall between the press and the politicians, then the press won't
:08:58. > :09:08.be helped and the politicians will become even more remote. I can say
:09:08. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:19.with certainty it will be a change Andrew Roberts from St Bride's
:09:19. > :09:22.Church in Fleet Street, to our little temple here in Westminster.
:09:22. > :09:29.Welcome back to the programme. Thank you. Now, you don't think
:09:29. > :09:34.that someone as powerful as Rupert Murdoch deserves some kind of
:09:34. > :09:37.democratic scrutiny? Yes, absolutely, and the democratic
:09:37. > :09:41.scrutiny is if you don't like him, don't buy his papers. Don't we have
:09:41. > :09:45.a right to question him, our elected representatives, judges, to
:09:45. > :09:48.question him on serious matters of public policy? If he's broken the
:09:48. > :09:51.law, which it seems like some of his papers have broken the law,
:09:51. > :09:55.then you are going to see that in the courts. It's some of his people
:09:55. > :09:58.have actually paid policemen and you will see that in the courts, as
:09:58. > :10:03.well. That's entirely different from this kind of questioning that
:10:03. > :10:08.he is getting at the moment. don't have a right to ask him why
:10:08. > :10:11.he's created a kind of culture in his newsroom in which law-breaking
:10:11. > :10:16.has taken place on an industrial scale? I don't believe he has
:10:16. > :10:19.created that culture and he doesn't believe he has either. Of course he
:10:19. > :10:23.has the right to otherwise he wouldn't be there in the first
:10:23. > :10:29.praise, -- place, I don't think it helps either the public or the
:10:29. > :10:34.press to have this kind of criticism. Whether you are right or
:10:34. > :10:39.wrong, do you believe that the - that this is the beginning of the
:10:39. > :10:43.end in terms of traditional proprietor and politician
:10:43. > :10:48.relationships? Yes, I do believe that. I think that because of the
:10:48. > :10:51.way in which this is being dealt with it probably is the end of the
:10:51. > :10:56.traditional system and by the way, I don't think that the new system,
:10:56. > :11:01.whatever it is, will be any better. Complaining about politicians and
:11:01. > :11:05.speaking to proprietors and the other way around is like, to
:11:05. > :11:09.misquote Enoch Powell, sailors complaining about the weather.
:11:09. > :11:15.the newspaper industry is in decline, people aren't buying
:11:15. > :11:19.newspapers. We have to distinguish between news and what is opinion.
:11:19. > :11:22.News is what other people don't want you to know and the rest is
:11:22. > :11:28.advertising. I don't have a problem with investigative journalism if
:11:28. > :11:32.they don't break laws. If it isn't on the edge as this has been and
:11:32. > :11:36.that culture isn't just one paper. What I am talking about isn't the
:11:36. > :11:40.journalism, I am talking about the relationship between proprietors
:11:40. > :11:44.and politicians. Has that really been healthy in this country? Your
:11:44. > :11:48.party for 11 years was enthralled to Rupert Murdoch. The one Labour
:11:48. > :11:54.Minister said to me he was the 21st man in the cabinet. But if you go
:11:54. > :11:57.through the whole history there's always been - and same time tension
:11:57. > :12:01.between papers don't write politicians want they criticise and
:12:01. > :12:06.shout and the more there is tension between them the happier I am. We
:12:06. > :12:10.are really moving now where local reporting, newspapers are in
:12:10. > :12:14.decline, opinion is in... That's not the issue we are talking about
:12:14. > :12:19.tonight. What I am trying to get to - I will try you, Michael, has the
:12:19. > :12:22.Murdoch spell in Britain been broken? I want to go to the heart
:12:22. > :12:26.of what I think this is about. What this is about is the possibility
:12:26. > :12:31.that the Conservative Party traded before the last election the
:12:31. > :12:36.support of the Murdoch newspapers for compliance with Murdoch's
:12:36. > :12:40.request to take over BSkyB. Now, if there is any truth in that
:12:40. > :12:46.allegation it is - it would be momentous. I think Andrew Roberts'
:12:46. > :12:51.report completely misses the scale and scope of that issue. I hope,
:12:51. > :12:55.because I am a Tory, that it isn't true. You think it might be? That's
:12:55. > :13:01.what's been - that's what's come on the table in the evidence this week.
:13:01. > :13:05.I think an inquiry that introduces a question as important as that is
:13:05. > :13:10.an inquiry which is leading us towards truth and that is to be
:13:10. > :13:13.welcomed actually. I think my report, just to disagree with
:13:13. > :13:19.Michael, I think that my report actually made it pretty clear that
:13:19. > :13:23.I thought the BSkyB bid should have gone through, that... Even if it's
:13:23. > :13:25.part of a political deal. Of course it was part of a political deal
:13:25. > :13:30.because everything to do with the newspapers and politics is always
:13:30. > :13:34.part of a political deal. Shouldn't we have full disclosure of that?
:13:34. > :13:37.The great thing about what would have happened if we had a proper
:13:37. > :13:41.BSkyB that was owned entirely by News International it would not in
:13:42. > :13:45.any way have been prepblg digsal simply because newspapers are owned
:13:45. > :13:50.by News International, this is a TV station and not one, of course,
:13:50. > :13:54.that's been in any way touched by the phone hacking scandal. You may
:13:54. > :13:57.be right, we will never know now, it would have been owned by News
:13:57. > :13:59.Corp, by the way, which is an American company, not News
:13:59. > :14:02.International, which is based in Britain. Putting that fact aside.
:14:02. > :14:08.Isn't the point and the point that Michael raises, it goes to the
:14:08. > :14:11.heart of the issue, which is all businessmen and women lobby the
:14:11. > :14:16.Government. British Aerospace, Royal Bank of Scotland and so on.
:14:16. > :14:22.When a press baron lobbies the Government he and they're all he,
:14:22. > :14:26.bring different weapons. They bring weapons of support that the head of
:14:26. > :14:34.British Aerospace cannot bring and in a democracy surely that should
:14:34. > :14:38.be under scrutiny and subject to But of course they're going to do
:14:38. > :14:43.that. In fact that's their duty to do that. They've got to increase
:14:43. > :14:50.value for shareholders like any other businessman. The duty to say,
:14:51. > :14:58."I'm Rupert Murdoch "and I say to David Cameron, "You get out of the
:14:58. > :15:02.way of BSkyB and the Sun will be behind you?" He wouldn't say that.
:15:02. > :15:06.But the implication is that's what you are saying aren't you? And that
:15:07. > :15:11.is what needs to be investigated. That is the issue that needs to be
:15:11. > :15:17.raised, and the other way around. Did the Conservatives say to Rupert
:15:17. > :15:24.Murdoch, in return for your support, we will support your BSkyB bid?
:15:24. > :15:32.we now are have the position of the civil servants who are not prepared
:15:32. > :15:37.to say. The ministerial code needs to be looked at.
:15:37. > :15:44.At the moment there is nothing to say that Jeremy Hunt did say that
:15:44. > :15:48.to his special adviser. I don't want to get into that, as Hunt is
:15:48. > :15:53.coming up later in the programme. You can agree or disagree with
:15:53. > :15:57.Rupert Murdoch, but when he sits there under oath and says, "I
:15:57. > :16:02.really have no influence in this country, I've never asked anything
:16:02. > :16:07.from a politician at all, I don't really matter, I don't really have
:16:07. > :16:12.nigh say in my newspapers" whether you like him or don't like him,
:16:12. > :16:17.that is not believable and you know that. That is not exactly what he
:16:17. > :16:22.said under oath. He said, "I have never had anything from the
:16:22. > :16:26.Government." I do believe that. I think he was telling the truth
:16:26. > :16:30.there. He didn't just say Prime Minister. It was Prime Ministers
:16:30. > :16:35.actually. The whole of that section was just talking about Prime
:16:35. > :16:40.Ministers. Let's say politicians. Tell me what he has asked from a
:16:40. > :16:45.Prime Minister or politician, directly what he has asked for.
:16:45. > :16:49.could answer that question quite clearly but I'm not going to do it.
:16:49. > :16:56.What did you make of the two sides of the Murdoch personality? On day
:16:56. > :17:00.one he was quite low key, quite quiet, he almost threw the QC. On
:17:01. > :17:06.day two it was like he had escaped the bounds of his New York lawyers
:17:06. > :17:11.and was swatting every men my he could get his hands on? I think it
:17:11. > :17:15.tells us that even in his 80s he is a brilliant personality. I hope
:17:15. > :17:19.that when his obituary is written, and it may not be for a long time,
:17:19. > :17:24.we will reflect on how much good he did for broadcasting and journalism
:17:24. > :17:28.in this country. But at this moment we are focused on something else.
:17:29. > :17:33.This man who I think has tried to portray himself sometimes as
:17:33. > :17:39.approaching the twilight of his life seems to me still to be very
:17:39. > :17:44.much in control. There's a lot of whirring and clicking there. Yes.
:17:44. > :17:51.You placed it in its historic context, this country has always
:17:51. > :17:56.had powerful press proprietors in the Beaverbrooks and others. Partly
:17:56. > :18:00.because the others don't have such a serious play. You don't see Lord
:18:00. > :18:05.Rothermere and the blai brothers in the same role. The question I
:18:05. > :18:12.wanted to ask you, culminating in Rupert Murdoch, is that in essence
:18:12. > :18:16.is end of the all-powerful press proprietor? It will be if Leveson
:18:16. > :18:18.comes down with some of the recommendations people have been
:18:18. > :18:24.talking about. You will get newspapers by committee and that
:18:24. > :18:28.won't be anything like as good. You won't get as good newspapers apart
:18:28. > :18:32.from anything else. What Gisela said about this being, in a sense,
:18:32. > :18:37.like the shutting of the stable door inquiry is right. Obviously
:18:37. > :18:41.the internet is taking over from this. This in many ways is the end
:18:41. > :18:45.of the an era. OK, Andrew Roberts, thank you for being with us. Thank
:18:45. > :18:49.you. It may be late, but you'd be madder
:18:49. > :18:51.than a box of North Korean Politburo members to go to bed just
:18:51. > :18:54.now, because coming up, singer Sinitta on the art of talent
:18:54. > :18:57.spotting in show business, and in politics. And if talent is
:18:57. > :19:00.something you're unfamiliar with, you'll feel right at home with the
:19:00. > :19:08.rest of the desperate no-hopers, on Twitter, Facebook and the good old
:19:08. > :19:12.missionary position interweb. Now, Call Me Dave has been
:19:12. > :19:16.criticised this week - yet again - for being out of touch with the
:19:16. > :19:19.likes of you, me, and Gisela, but not Michael. Whether it's a pasty
:19:19. > :19:23.or a pint of milk, there's an increasing suspicion that the Prime
:19:23. > :19:26.Minister has not, as he is required to do by the law of the political
:19:26. > :19:30.playground, committed to memory the price and location of all known
:19:30. > :19:34.grocery goods and condiments. So we've asked the Daily Mirror's
:19:34. > :19:44.Kevin Maguire to test the theory and hop on his milk float, set out
:19:44. > :20:12.
:20:12. > :20:17.his prices, and give us his round- Morning all. It never rains but it
:20:17. > :20:22.pours, usually, when a drought is declared. I've only got a few
:20:22. > :20:25.deliveries left. I never like to let down my regular customers.
:20:25. > :20:31.David Cameron needs all the calcium he can get after this week. Things
:20:31. > :20:36.are going from bad to worse and he might look back on the Budget
:20:36. > :20:41.bungles with a bit of nostalgia. The week started on a sour note
:20:41. > :20:45.when a Tory MP said some people don't have any trouble paying their
:20:45. > :20:52.bills. I think not only are Cameron and George Osborne two posh boys
:20:52. > :20:57.who don't know the price of milk, but they are arrogant and don't
:20:57. > :21:02.show any remorse, have no contrition and don't understand the
:21:02. > :21:06.live of others. David Cameron was keen to show that he is like you
:21:06. > :21:12.and me and knows the price of one of these. I do a lot of my own
:21:12. > :21:18.shopping. Really? Yes, I go to Sainsbury's in Chipping Norton on
:21:18. > :21:24.Friday or Saturday. Sam does a lot of it on the internet. The price of
:21:24. > :21:28.milk then? I pay just under 50p. And he works hard too.
:21:28. > :21:31.I wake up in the morning, get stuck into this. There is all sorts of
:21:31. > :21:36.things happening on the other side of the world I need to worry about,
:21:36. > :21:40.all sorts of terrorism cases I need to worry about. There is stuff in
:21:40. > :21:45.Parliament I need to worry about. There isn't a day where you don't
:21:45. > :21:52.learn important lessons and you have to stay on touch and get on
:21:52. > :21:56.top of it. But the impression is he is a gold Tom premier, part of the
:21:56. > :22:00.guild elite who are in it together. And this is damaging for Cameron,
:22:00. > :22:09.as is the impression that he doesn't work hard. Never around
:22:09. > :22:16.when I'm delivering the work. I'm off to the High Court.
:22:16. > :22:21.The public mood curdle further when billionaire's boy James Murdoch
:22:21. > :22:27.appeared at the Leveson Inquiry. E- mails had accusations that Jeremy
:22:27. > :22:32.Hunt, who had a quasi-judicial role in discussing the �8 billion BSkyB
:22:32. > :22:37.bid, was given inside information. Here is a description of a one of
:22:37. > :22:41.the e-mails dealing with Hunt's office. Managed to get some
:22:41. > :22:48.information on the plans for tomorrow, although absolutely
:22:48. > :22:52.illegal. What do you make of that? I thought it was a joke. I think
:22:52. > :22:58.the greater than and the exclammation point there, a wink,
:22:58. > :23:05.it is a joke. Hunt wasn't laughing when Labour, perhaps a tad too
:23:05. > :23:10.quickly, demanded his resignation. But no greater sacrifice can a
:23:10. > :23:14.Culture Secretary make than to lay down his special adviser's career.
:23:14. > :23:20.So Adam Smith resigned and the Minister loudly protest his own
:23:20. > :23:26.innocence. Transcripts of conversations and
:23:26. > :23:30.texts published yesterday between my special adviser Adam Smith and a
:23:30. > :23:34.News Corporation representative have been alleged to indicate there
:23:34. > :23:43.was a back channel through which News Corporation were able to
:23:43. > :23:46.influence my decisions. This is categorically not the case. Hunting
:23:46. > :23:52.with newshounds isn't illegal and the Culture Secretary bought
:23:52. > :23:57.himself time but he hasn't thrown his persuers off the scent.
:23:57. > :24:05.It is standing room only when Jeremy Hunt under oath appears
:24:05. > :24:09.before Lord Justice Leveson. They've been getting through the
:24:09. > :24:15.milk at the Law Courts, where old man Murdoch was at Leveson. On the
:24:15. > :24:19.first day he was all innocence. in ten years never asked Mr Blair
:24:19. > :24:23.for anything. Nor indeed did I receive any favours.
:24:24. > :24:29.But by the second day the milk had turned. Some might say that all
:24:29. > :24:34.this picture is consistent with one of a desire to cover up rather than
:24:34. > :24:41.a desire to expose. Would you agree with that? People with minds like
:24:41. > :24:49.yours, perhaps. I'm sorry, I take that back. But... Excuse me. George
:24:49. > :24:57.Osborne looks like a clap who could do with a nice mug of milk with an
:24:57. > :25:02.extra sugar to softton blow that Britain is back in recession, a
:25:02. > :25:07.double dip, the first since 1975. I've never disguised the fact that
:25:07. > :25:13.Britain faces an economic situation. We have debts, debts built up over
:25:14. > :25:18.many years. If I had a magic wand I could wave and Britain could spurt
:25:18. > :25:24.into growth, I would wave it. Wouldn't we all, mate. But this is
:25:24. > :25:29.the real world. With Nicolas Sarkozy's likely ejection from
:25:29. > :25:35.France, the eurozone, the 10 million IMF loan, George Osborne
:25:35. > :25:39.has an uphill battle persuading the country. Why doesn't he admit it,
:25:39. > :25:44.it is his catastrophic economic policy, his plan for austerity,
:25:44. > :25:48.cutting too far and too fast that has landed us back in recession.
:25:48. > :25:52.The Government this week was the worst week since the last worst
:25:52. > :25:57.week and the trouble for Dave and journal and Nick and Jeremy is
:25:57. > :26:01.every week's a bad week. Labour's up in the polls because
:26:02. > :26:06.the Conservatives are down. There is no point Cameron crying over
:26:06. > :26:13.spilt milk, but he needs a new plan fast, otherwise his Government's in
:26:13. > :26:19.danger of going down the drain. Kevin Maguire revealing the Prime
:26:19. > :26:23.Minister still buys his milk in pints. Chipping Norton must be in a
:26:23. > :26:29.time water. Miranda Green, welcome back. How do you assess the
:26:29. > :26:34.position of Jeremy Hunt, Michael? Perilous. The Adam Smith
:26:34. > :26:40.revelations are very damaging. The man was his special adviser, the
:26:40. > :26:43.relationship between a special adviser and a Minister is intimate.
:26:43. > :26:47.Special advisers in my experience don't do things that Ministers
:26:47. > :26:52.don't want them to do, particularly not in a field as delicate as. This
:26:52. > :26:58.it's a pretty horrible position. And all we know, and we knew little
:26:58. > :27:00.about Adam Smith beforehand, other than he had been a great 18th
:27:00. > :27:07.century economist from the University of Glasgow, other than
:27:07. > :27:12.that we knew he wasn't a Damian McBride or a Charlie Whelan. He was
:27:12. > :27:17.low key. He didn't walk around Westminster talking himself up.
:27:17. > :27:21.Permanent Secretary didn't help him either by refusing to answer the
:27:22. > :27:26.question today in front of the Public Accounts Committee. Why is
:27:26. > :27:31.no-one questioning the coalition? I would love to hare what Vince Cable
:27:31. > :27:36.makes of this. We haven't got Vince Cable here but we've got second
:27:36. > :27:42.best, Miranda. My understanding is that the Liberal Democrats have
:27:42. > :27:49.unhappy about this, which Simon Hughes on Question Time was
:27:49. > :27:53.unleashed on it. That's right. Simon was suggesting there's a
:27:53. > :27:57.prima facie case for Jeremy Hunt breaking the Ministerial Code. The
:27:57. > :27:59.Liberal Democrats stand in a very different position from the
:27:59. > :28:04.Conservative Party, vis-a-vis international relations with Rupert
:28:04. > :28:07.Murdoch, opinions on how the Murdoch empiper should be treat.
:28:07. > :28:12.You were so unimportant Rupert Murdoch never bothered with you.
:28:12. > :28:16.That is one way of putt it. There was an interesting piece this week
:28:16. > :28:20.which did go through the contact between News International
:28:20. > :28:24.lobbyists and Vince Cable's office. They really gave him the braush-off
:28:24. > :28:28.and said it would be inappropriate. That's the point, it is how you
:28:28. > :28:33.behave. One of my feelings, watching Jeremy Hunt ace statement,
:28:34. > :28:38.was there was this view which you used to get in the Blair Government,
:28:38. > :28:42.I'm a nice guy, I wouldn't have done anything wrong. It is not good
:28:42. > :28:47.enough. You have to be above reproach and behave in a way that
:28:47. > :28:54.is above reproach. So if the Liberal Democrats, and if Labour
:28:54. > :29:00.are gunning for him too, as I said, the translation of his jacket is
:29:00. > :29:05.hanging by a shaky pet is that his jack set on a peg which isn't
:29:05. > :29:09.properly inserted into the wall. That's the way it looks doesn't it?
:29:09. > :29:13.He is very vulnerable, but also because this relationship between a
:29:13. > :29:16.Minister and their special adviser. You can't have the special adviser
:29:16. > :29:21.just as somebody who is there to kill off if things get a bit
:29:22. > :29:26.unfortunate, so that you can have denyability. That's a corrupt
:29:26. > :29:32.culture, if that's what the special advise ser there for. But your
:29:32. > :29:34.analysis in broad Scots leaves out one point, that he is, to change
:29:34. > :29:39.the metaphor, the salami slice before the Prime Minister. That's
:29:39. > :29:42.why you saw that organised rump news the House of Commons with the
:29:42. > :29:45.Tories baying their support for Jeremy Hunt. It is not particularly
:29:45. > :29:48.because they understand the issue or have studied the issue. It is
:29:48. > :29:51.that the Prime Minister very much wants Jeremy Hunt to survive,
:29:51. > :29:57.because if he does not, you get into the issue of what was the
:29:57. > :30:04.relationship between the Prime These stories have a momentum about
:30:04. > :30:09.them. The question of, given he was playing a judicial role in the
:30:09. > :30:14.BSkyB takeover, why in the - why even did the civil service allow
:30:14. > :30:20.him to put a special advisor as the point man if they knew? Why has Mr
:30:20. > :30:25.Cameron, why has he outsourced the policing of the Ministerial Code of
:30:25. > :30:28.Conduct to Justice Leveson? And the body language during the statement
:30:28. > :30:32.when Jeremy Hunt gave the statement was very interesting. David Cameron
:30:32. > :30:37.was sitting there, really engaging, you could see him almost feeding
:30:37. > :30:41.lines when questions were troupb at -- thrown at him. I think the only
:30:41. > :30:45.thing which would make him sur survive if he is seen as the
:30:45. > :30:48.barrier, firewall between him and the Prime Minister. The civil
:30:48. > :30:51.service have to raise their game, time and again now permanent
:30:51. > :30:55.Secretaries are not doing what they ought to do. Certainly one
:30:55. > :31:00.breakthrough we need is the Ministerial Code needs to be
:31:00. > :31:07.enforced by some powerful outsider who can decree each time when an
:31:07. > :31:11.inquiry is required. Shouldn't that be the Cabinet Secretary. Nadine
:31:11. > :31:18.Dories, does her attack on Mr Cameron and Mr Osbourne, I assume
:31:18. > :31:22.that's the targets of her attack, does it matter? Well, she is so
:31:22. > :31:27.combative, so fierce, so horrid, I might say to them, that it loses a
:31:27. > :31:30.lot of its impact. Of course the criticism which she makes that
:31:30. > :31:34.they're out of touch... reasonates at the moment. But I
:31:34. > :31:39.think she's perhaps the worst messenger to deliver it. Does it
:31:39. > :31:44.mat tper the Prime Minister knows the price of mising or -- milk or
:31:44. > :31:48.not. It does up to the point when he keeps trying to pretend he is
:31:48. > :31:53.the ordinary guy who does these things. The attack, whoever the
:31:53. > :31:56.messenger, the attack hit such a reasonians and even more so with
:31:56. > :32:02.Osbourne, who kind of almost looks as if he announces a cut that he
:32:02. > :32:07.really enjoys it and you can see him in the back of a French coach
:32:07. > :32:11.during the revolution telling them to eat cake. The famous double-dip
:32:11. > :32:15.came today, for many people that's the biggest story of the lot. This
:32:15. > :32:20.coalition has had its ups and downs but the one thing it's been solid
:32:20. > :32:24.on, remarkably so, you have all sung from the same song sheet on
:32:24. > :32:27.deficit reduction. But now we are back in recession, there will be
:32:27. > :32:31.more pressure for a plan B? Undoubtedly there will be pressure,
:32:31. > :32:34.whether it actually results in many changes is something that is
:32:34. > :32:39.possibly a different question. I think there are differences of
:32:39. > :32:41.emphasis within the coalition. For example, the Lib Dems in the
:32:41. > :32:45.cabinet are very against this talk about the immigration crackdown
:32:45. > :32:49.because if you are going to go for growth all out in the economy, you
:32:49. > :32:52.can't have this message going out Britain is closed for business. So
:32:52. > :32:57.that would be a different emphasis on that side. Obviously on the Tory
:32:57. > :33:00.right there is this pressure for deregulation, people suggesting you
:33:00. > :33:04.should abolish maternity leave, for example, which goes down very badly
:33:04. > :33:07.on the Lib Dem side. There will be push-pull on that sort of thing
:33:07. > :33:12.because clearly there does need to be huge effort put into a growth
:33:12. > :33:16.plan. The economy must now be Labour's opportunity, if it cannot
:33:17. > :33:21.capitalise on this and get the public with it, then when can it?
:33:21. > :33:23.Indeed. But in order to show you are competent you need to deliver
:33:23. > :33:26.things on the ground and that's why I think Labour's recovery in a
:33:26. > :33:30.sense will be after the local elections if they take control of
:33:30. > :33:33.some of the councils and can then show the kind of economic
:33:33. > :33:37.competence at a local local level. They still have to convince people
:33:37. > :33:40.of that. Indeed and you can only regain that confidence by your
:33:40. > :33:44.actions and showing when Labour controls some of the citys which we
:33:44. > :33:49.are hoping to take at the local elections. This negative growth, of
:33:49. > :33:53.course makes the debt problem worse. It actually makes it even less
:33:53. > :33:57.possible to row back on the austerity programme. The reaction
:33:57. > :34:01.in the Margetts will be even more - - in the markets will be more
:34:01. > :34:05.severe. The debt problem is now so important, so severe that even if
:34:05. > :34:09.the Government sticks to its austerity it may find interest
:34:09. > :34:12.rates go up in the medium term and that will be very, very serious.
:34:12. > :34:18.The prospect for this coalition is it's really between a rock and a
:34:18. > :34:21.hard place. It's stuck in a no growth scenario with none of the
:34:21. > :34:27.traditional engines of growth of the demand, whether it's household
:34:27. > :34:30.spending, or exports or wherever, but if it was to do what Ed Balls
:34:30. > :34:34.wants is it to do, which is probably borrow even mover, -- even
:34:34. > :34:36.more, the bond markets would take it to the cleaners. It can't do
:34:36. > :34:40.anything. The Government has to convince the public about is that
:34:40. > :34:45.even though things are absolutely terrible, if we were to do what Ed
:34:45. > :34:49.Balls suggests, they would be much, much worse. That's hard for people
:34:49. > :34:51.to imagine. It certainly is. Luckily we can point to most of the
:34:51. > :34:55.other countries in Europe to demonstrate how they would be worse.
:34:55. > :34:58.This isn't why you went into coalition, it was all beginning -
:34:58. > :35:01.it was meant to be coming right by now. Just beginning, you were
:35:01. > :35:06.supposed to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And there is a
:35:06. > :35:09.light, it's an oncoming train. a very good point Michael makes,
:35:09. > :35:12.because actually if you think back to those heady days around the
:35:12. > :35:16.formation of the coalition one of the things that was going on,
:35:16. > :35:19.frankly, was a lot of senior people in the Labour Party were thinking
:35:19. > :35:22.thank goodness we are not going to be in charge for this bit, it's
:35:22. > :35:25.going to be terrible. They didn't want a coalition. The agreement was
:35:25. > :35:31.formed to provide stability during a terrible, terrible time and guess
:35:31. > :35:38.what, we are in that terrible time. The stability of the graveyard.
:35:38. > :35:44.have a political stability. It's a lot worse elsewhere. It will get
:35:44. > :35:48.worse. The euro is going to break up. That's the problem. In a sense
:35:48. > :35:58.there will be tougher times. There's nothing as cheery as you
:35:58. > :35:58.
:35:59. > :36:03.lot! Thank you for being back with Now, it's easy to hide your light
:36:03. > :36:06.under a bushel. Take Adam Smith, former special adviser to Jeremy
:36:06. > :36:08.Hunt, who - if you believe Jezza's alibi - instigated a single-handed,
:36:08. > :36:10.clandestine, one-sided, back- channel briefing and support policy
:36:10. > :36:12.to James Murdoch and News Corporation during the largest and
:36:12. > :36:15.most controversial media takeover negotiations in recent times,
:36:15. > :36:25.entirely unbeknownst to his boss - self-styled man of 'integrity'
:36:25. > :36:28.
:36:28. > :36:31.Jeremy Hunt! If only Jezza realised what Adam was really capable of!
:36:31. > :36:36.Simon Cowell certainly wouldn't have missed such a trick. So that's
:36:36. > :36:44.why we've decided to put talent spotting in this week's Spotlight.
:36:44. > :36:47.# I heard it through the grapevine...
:36:47. > :36:53.As The Voice dominates the TV ratings it proves there is nothing
:36:53. > :37:00.we like more than watching fresh- faced hopefuls strut their stuff on
:37:00. > :37:04.stage. Television is not ready for this talent on this show.
:37:04. > :37:08.Maybe we all have a gift we just don't know about. That's the the
:37:08. > :37:12.premise behind Richard Bacon's new programme Hidden Talent where a
:37:12. > :37:22.nurse discovered she was a superskilled rock climber. Go on,
:37:22. > :37:25.
:37:25. > :37:28.Why is it so hard to scout fresh talent in politics? With a major
:37:28. > :37:33.parties offering Londoners the same old faces in next week's mayoral
:37:33. > :37:37.election, can cities like Birmingham do any better? Let the
:37:37. > :37:46.auditions begin. But whether it's Diane tinkling the
:37:47. > :37:51.ivories or Michael tackling the ever so tricky triangle, we have
:37:51. > :38:00.already proved that This Week is the one place in politics that has
:38:00. > :38:03.definitely got talent. Not! Sinitta joins us, good to see
:38:03. > :38:08.you. All these so-called talent shows that are on right now, we
:38:08. > :38:13.know all the titles and the BBC has this new one, The Voice, doing
:38:13. > :38:16.incredibly well, are they really talent shows are just
:38:16. > :38:22.entertainment? I think The Voice is and not just for one person to win
:38:22. > :38:27.at the end. I think it's a talent show for 40 amazing artists because
:38:27. > :38:33.because everyone on the show can sing. Are these shows good at
:38:33. > :38:35.spotting talent? Have they had many success? Leona Lewis obviously.
:38:36. > :38:40.She's been phenomenonal. Internationally, not just British.
:38:40. > :38:43.Have they been good at doing it? They have careers after. A lot of
:38:43. > :38:49.those people probably wouldn't have been discovered at all. But now at
:38:49. > :38:53.least whether they're doing shows or musicals or gigs they're now
:38:53. > :38:58.working as professional singers now. Sometimes the people who do best
:38:58. > :39:03.aren't the ones who win. Exactly. The losers, exactly. I don't think
:39:03. > :39:07.you have to win to do well. You get the exposure. Yeah. If you are any
:39:07. > :39:13.good. To that extent it's an indicater of talent then.
:39:13. > :39:17.Definitely. Have you spotted any political talent? Oh, political
:39:17. > :39:22.talent. I would say that the front bench would make a great boy band.
:39:22. > :39:28.They're all very young, aren't they? Vince Cable? There's no Tom
:39:28. > :39:32.Jones, though. Not really. What about William Hague? No. I don't
:39:32. > :39:36.think so. People feel there isn't that much political talent around
:39:36. > :39:41.these days. They may be wrong, I tell you why I think they may be
:39:41. > :39:45.wrong, the 2010 intake of MPs into the Commons on the Labour and
:39:45. > :39:49.Conservative side, the Lib Dems didn't really get any new people,
:39:49. > :39:54.but on the two big parties, it's actually I think very impressive.
:39:54. > :39:59.It's awesome. Also a third of the House of Commons after 2010 was a
:39:59. > :40:05.new intake. So you had a great many new faces on both sides. They are
:40:05. > :40:08.very impressive. They've cut their teeth before they came in, they've
:40:08. > :40:12.got opinions and they're not going with the flow. Can I pick up the
:40:12. > :40:16.point about the mayoral election. The thing about these talent shows
:40:16. > :40:20.like The Voice is that of course the BBC, ITV, which ever it is,
:40:20. > :40:23.gives an opportunity to a range of people that you never set eyes on
:40:23. > :40:26.before. In the mayoral elections that was meant to happen as well,
:40:26. > :40:32.but what the BBC is doing is it's only showing the candidates from
:40:32. > :40:37.the three main parties. That's got to change. The debate I did we had
:40:37. > :40:41.four and we had recorded contributions from the other
:40:41. > :40:44.parties. Don't get defensive. just explaining. It's a general and
:40:44. > :40:47.substantial point that throughout the mayoral election the BBC is
:40:48. > :40:50.giving air time to the principle candidates representing the
:40:50. > :40:54.traditional parties and is not giving the same air time to the
:40:54. > :40:58.others. That never happens in elections. Sky and ITV have done
:40:58. > :41:01.the same. That's the point, I am asking for the mould to be broken.
:41:01. > :41:04.If we are going to have political talent and elections which are
:41:04. > :41:08.meant to be a new thing in politics then the BBC has to adapt and it
:41:08. > :41:11.has to recognise that we are not just giving air time to the main
:41:11. > :41:15.political parties because we are trying to do something new. Are you
:41:15. > :41:19.going to run in Birmingham? there is a yes vote, yes I am going
:41:19. > :41:22.to run. I think in terms of breaking the moulds, I think
:41:22. > :41:26.political parties and I think it was in the coalition agreement,
:41:26. > :41:30.that they would pay for some open primaries, actually going the way
:41:30. > :41:35.candidates is elected, open this much wider. Do you stand down as an
:41:36. > :41:39.MP to run or do you stand down if you win? There is nothing in the
:41:39. > :41:44.legislation and I think Boris and Ken went on for sometime before
:41:44. > :41:50.they stood down. Have you spotted talent yourself? I have actually.
:41:50. > :41:59.Do you know Daniel Bedingfield, Natasha, I found them and mentored
:41:59. > :42:05.them and helped them get record deals, spotted Myleene. The girl on
:42:05. > :42:10.The Voice, Ruth Brown, who was phenomenonal last week, she is only
:42:11. > :42:14.19. I worked with her a few years ago but her mother thought she was
:42:14. > :42:19.too young and she had to concentrate on her studies. I think
:42:20. > :42:23.she's going to win the whole thing. You are about to do a concert with
:42:23. > :42:27.Pete Waterman, you are going to celebrate talent you have both
:42:27. > :42:31.spotted over 25 years. I was one of the talents he spotted 25 years ago.
:42:31. > :42:36.Now he is bringing all the talent from the 80s, putting on a huge
:42:36. > :42:40.concert in Hyde Park called The Hit Factory Live. It's like a big class
:42:40. > :42:44.reunion. A sensitive question to finish with here. You are one of
:42:44. > :42:49.Simon Cowell's best friends. Can you clear something up? You can say
:42:49. > :42:59.no if you don't want to answer this. Does he really use black toilet
:42:59. > :42:59.
:42:59. > :43:03.paper? I have seen it, yes. Sorry. You wouldn't get that kind of fact
:43:03. > :43:09.on Newsnight, would you? That's why This Week is different. Thank you
:43:09. > :43:12.very much. Good to see you. Good luck with the tour.
:43:12. > :43:15.That's your lot for tonight folks. It's certainly past your bedtime
:43:15. > :43:19.and if the pictures at this week's Leveson Inquiry are to be believed,
:43:19. > :43:22.it's well past Old Man Murdoch's. Nurse, some Blue Nun cocoa and a
:43:22. > :43:26.copy of my book "Full Disclosure" for the elderly gent in the
:43:26. > :43:31.Penthouse Ward! Both of these will certainly put him to sleep.
:43:31. > :43:36.Nighty night - don't let the the old guy's false modesty bite. #
:43:36. > :43:42.I've been sitting here all day thinking