:00:09. > :00:16.Tonight, as the sun finally comes out, This Week takes a sunny stroll
:00:16. > :00:20.around the Westminster garden. As the IMF struggles to spot green
:00:20. > :00:23.shoots of recovery, things aren't looking too rosy for the UK economy.
:00:23. > :00:29.But if jobs don't grow on trees, would employers be tempted to hire
:00:29. > :00:34.more if they could fire more? Britain's top advertising executive,
:00:34. > :00:39.Sir Martin Sorrell, wants to prune the red tape. We want to see more
:00:39. > :00:45.flexibility in the UK market. It is an example we see all around the
:00:45. > :00:48.world. It means faster growth and more jobs for the UK.
:00:48. > :00:50.With Greece continuing to wilt under the harsh glare of the
:00:50. > :00:54.bailout conditions, will the country be forced to uproot itself
:00:54. > :01:01.from the eurozone? The Guardian's Nick Watt is sewing
:01:01. > :01:06.the political seeds. Some people, including our Prime Minister,
:01:06. > :01:11.believe the grass is always greener in an English country garden. But
:01:11. > :01:17.the deputy groundsman differed and said, "Don't be beastly to the
:01:17. > :01:19.Europeans." And it's not all rosy in the
:01:19. > :01:24.welfare garden, as the Government considers cutting benefits to
:01:24. > :01:30.addicts. Is the stick really better than the carrot?
:01:30. > :01:34.Tabloid favourite and former addict Kerry Katona speaks from experience.
:01:34. > :01:43.Nobody could help me other than myself and that is what I did when
:01:43. > :01:46.I hit rock bottom. Here comes the sun.
:01:47. > :01:56.Here comes the This Week, I say. It's all right, doo doo doo doo doo
:01:57. > :02:03.
:02:03. > :02:05.It's hot. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week,
:02:05. > :02:08.a political Shangri-La deep in the heart of Westminster-on-Thames,
:02:08. > :02:11.just up the river from Staines. Boyakasha!!
:02:11. > :02:13.Although it seems we have some rather laid-back competition these
:02:13. > :02:19.days, specifically from the coalition chillax zone, previously
:02:19. > :02:22.known as Number 10 Downing Street. For those who can't be bothered
:02:22. > :02:25.keeping up with such things, let me enlighten you. According to a new
:02:25. > :02:27.book, when it comes to the work- life balance issue, our Prime
:02:27. > :02:30.Minister isn't just "very relaxed" about it, he's "positively
:02:30. > :02:40.horizontal" which means he's at least got something in common with
:02:40. > :02:43.
:02:43. > :02:47.the economy the rest of us live in. But at least we can all rest easy
:02:47. > :02:49.in our bean bags, safe in the knowledge that the ship of state is
:02:49. > :02:51.in the capable hands of the idle rich.
:02:51. > :02:54.Yes, at Call-me-DVD-Dave's gaffe it's weekend karaoke, snooker,
:02:54. > :02:57.tennis against a machine known as "the Clegger" all rounded-off with
:02:57. > :03:00.a decent Sunday lunch with three or four glasses of the old Blue Nun
:03:00. > :03:03.special cuvee, the PM's very own "chillaxative" so to speak.
:03:03. > :03:05.What need is there of red boxes when you're close to finishing
:03:05. > :03:08.level four of Fruit Ninja on your iPad?
:03:08. > :03:10.Speaking of those who avoid heavy lifting at all costs, I'm joined on
:03:10. > :03:14.the sofa tonight by two of Westminster's most proficient
:03:14. > :03:19.muttering idiots. The Ed Balls and Lucille Ball of
:03:19. > :03:24.late-night political chat. I speak, of course, of
:03:24. > :03:34.#manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo
:03:34. > :03:41.
:03:41. > :03:46.choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week? Mr aL-Megrahi died this week.
:03:46. > :03:49.He was released by a United Kingdom Government that wanted to count out
:03:49. > :03:52.to Colonel Gaddafi and by a Scottish Government that thought he
:03:53. > :03:57.had been wrongly convicted. He may indeed have been wrongly convicted.
:03:57. > :04:01.It is not for politicians to decide to let people out... And there was
:04:01. > :04:06.an appeal pending? There was an appeal pending. The idea that he
:04:06. > :04:12.was being let out on humanitarian grounds was absurd. You can't let
:04:12. > :04:18.out people because they might die - we are all dying! You are a cheery
:04:18. > :04:24.lad tonight(!) Has the heat gone to the brain? It was a sorry day for
:04:24. > :04:28.British politics. Politicians tried to convince us to give up our civil
:04:28. > :04:35.liberties to fight terrorism. When we get a convicted terrorist behind
:04:36. > :04:42.bars we let him go. Alan, your moment? It is today's net migration
:04:42. > :04:46.statistics. 166,000 and 2 52,000. 166,000 was the net migration
:04:46. > :04:51.figures in the last year of the Labour Government. That open-door
:04:51. > :04:57.policy that we are supposed to have had. It come down from the previous
:04:57. > :05:02.two years. 2 52,000 is the latest statistic. That is the net figure?
:05:02. > :05:06.The problem for David Cameron - I'm not criticising him for the figures
:05:06. > :05:10.- but he said he would bring that down to the tens of thousands and
:05:10. > :05:15.it's mission impossible for him. There is one in Number Ten ought to
:05:15. > :05:21.be thinking about how to get out of this. It is going to get worse.
:05:21. > :05:26.have had the Minister on the Daily Politics the several times. He
:05:26. > :05:30.always says, "Oh no, we will still do it." We will have him on again.
:05:30. > :05:33.I doubt it very much. Now would you believe it, there's
:05:34. > :05:36.been a bit of name-calling in Westminster this week! Adrian
:05:36. > :05:39.Beecroft, the man tasked with overhauling Britain's employment
:05:39. > :05:41.laws, was accused by Vince the Cable of coming up with a "bonkers"
:05:41. > :05:44.proposal to make firing employees much easier, whilst Sir Adrian
:05:44. > :05:48.retorted that the Business Secretary was nothing more than "a
:05:48. > :05:51.socialist." What a ridiculous suggestion. Vince
:05:51. > :05:56.used to be a Glasgow Labour councillor.
:05:56. > :06:01.Oh. I see what he means. Anyway, there's only one way to settle
:06:01. > :06:04.this: Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! But before things get too messy,
:06:04. > :06:14.we've asked mad-man ad-man, Martin Sorrell, to give us his take of the
:06:14. > :06:31.
:06:31. > :06:35.I'm CEO of WPPP. We have 158,000 in 108 countries. The real challenge
:06:35. > :06:44.around growth and obviously jobs because with growth comes jobs. The
:06:44. > :06:51.Government has to put together a comprehensive and co-hee sieve plan
:06:51. > :06:55.-- cohesive plan. How is the Beecroft plan affecting
:06:55. > :07:00.flexibility? If it is easy to reduce it, it is easier to increase
:07:00. > :07:07.it. We get greater flexibility as a result. So people will put it
:07:07. > :07:14.crudely saying it enables people to fire more easily and the more
:07:14. > :07:20.positive side of it would be it will enable people to high more --
:07:20. > :07:25.hire more more easily. It is an attempt to get more jobs and growth,
:07:25. > :07:29.which is the central issue the Government faces. The economy in
:07:29. > :07:34.the world that was easiest to do that in was the United States.
:07:34. > :07:38.There you have much more flexibility in hiring and firing,
:07:38. > :07:45.in hiring and reducing labour forces. As a result, we can
:07:45. > :07:49.literally turn on a sixpence to do that. The American attitude to
:07:49. > :07:53.labour flexibility is much more constructed. One thing I would say
:07:53. > :07:58.that we have been affected by is the so-called TUPE legislation.
:07:58. > :08:08.That means that if we win a piece of business, the Agency that loses
:08:08. > :08:09.
:08:09. > :08:12.it, where people in that agency have been 24/7 or soley employed on
:08:12. > :08:15.that account, they have employment rights to transfer with the
:08:16. > :08:20.business to us as the winning agency. If we lost the piece of
:08:20. > :08:27.business, the winning agency would have to take those people on from
:08:27. > :08:31.our agency. That is inherently a little bit strange. On balance, I
:08:31. > :08:34.think Beecroft was in the right direction. What he was doing was
:08:34. > :08:44.trying to seek greater mobility, particularly - and this is very
:08:44. > :08:53.
:08:53. > :08:56.important - for smaller companies. Martin Sorrell. What an intro.
:08:56. > :09:00.glad you didn't cut your wrists listening to them! Are you saying
:09:00. > :09:05.if it was easier to fire people you would hire more people? If there
:09:06. > :09:09.was more flexibility in the market, the answer is yes. I think we saw
:09:09. > :09:12.that in America post-Lehman, particularly in the first, the
:09:12. > :09:19.second half of 2009. We didn't react as quickly as possibly we
:09:19. > :09:24.should have done to the first half of 2009 and the tough economic
:09:24. > :09:28.conditions. In America, the attitude obviously - look, from an
:09:28. > :09:33.ethical point of view, one doesn't like unemployment and the
:09:33. > :09:40.adjustment. The Americans, there was a film starring George Clooney
:09:40. > :09:43.which tried to describe what it is like in America. There's the same
:09:43. > :09:47.psychological impact and emotional impact. The Americans get over it
:09:47. > :09:53.much more quickly. Mobility is built into the structure of the
:09:53. > :10:00.economy, less homeownership, and they move much more flexibly.
:10:00. > :10:03.Literally, I said on the film, they can turn on a sixpence. Within six
:10:03. > :10:07.months, we were fully adjusted in the United States. It is still
:10:07. > :10:10.taking us three to four years on time to adjust in the European
:10:10. > :10:15.economy. Are the people that you employ here in Britain, that you
:10:15. > :10:22.would like to fire, but can't? is less so to be fair a British
:10:22. > :10:30.issue. It is more a French, Italian and Spanish issue. Let me give you
:10:30. > :10:34.an example. In France one of our CFOs stole 25,000 euros from us. We
:10:34. > :10:38.took - he admitted the crime. He hired a lawyer after he had been
:10:38. > :10:44.dismissed, took us to court and won in court. You can't run - the judge
:10:44. > :10:49.said it wasn't a bad crime. We asked the judge what constitutes a
:10:49. > :10:54.good crime, or a bad crime? So three years after a lot of struggle
:10:54. > :10:58.in the courts we won on appeal. That labour market inflexibility is
:10:58. > :11:01.a serious issue. We in the West have to understand there has been a
:11:01. > :11:04.shift in the balance of power economically. We have to decide
:11:04. > :11:07.whether that is something we are willing to tolerate or not. If we
:11:07. > :11:11.are not prepared to tolerate it, we have to change the structure to
:11:11. > :11:14.make it easier for companies to adjust their structure. One final
:11:14. > :11:17.point: If the British economy is flat, there are parts of it that
:11:17. > :11:21.are growing and parts that are declining. We have to get into the
:11:21. > :11:26.habit of trying to shift resources, whether it be labour or capital or
:11:26. > :11:30.whatever, into those parts that are growing. The final, final point is
:11:30. > :11:34.that small, what Beecroft was on about, if you read the report - and
:11:34. > :11:38.I have read sections of it - was about helping small companies. They
:11:38. > :11:41.are the engines of growth. It is not so much the big companies. The
:11:41. > :11:45.SMEs are the companies that you have to stimulate to grow. They
:11:45. > :11:51.wanted to get rid of the red tape. There is a crisis of social
:11:51. > :11:55.democracy across Europe when it comes to unemployment? We have 16
:11:55. > :12:02.million people unemployed in the eurozone. Young people can't get
:12:02. > :12:06.jobs. 52% unemployed, 18-year-olds in Spain. We treat labour,
:12:06. > :12:10.particularly in Europe, as highly- regulated and highly-taxed, so
:12:10. > :12:16.people don't get jobs? We are different to the rest of Europe.
:12:16. > :12:23.I'm with Comrade Cable on this. When I was doing Vince's job, when
:12:23. > :12:26.I was doing his job, I met people like Martin. I spent half my time
:12:26. > :12:30.with businesses telling me to deregulate and half my time with
:12:30. > :12:34.businesses telling me to regulate because they felt there was a
:12:34. > :12:37.competitive advantage. On this particular issue, you are right,
:12:37. > :12:39.unemployment is a big issue. The thought that after all that we have
:12:39. > :12:44.been through with the banking crisis, the problem in our economy,
:12:44. > :12:49.which is a lack of demand, that the answer is to fire at will. First of
:12:49. > :12:52.all, I want to know why a venture capitalist, who is a major donor to
:12:53. > :12:57.the Conservative Party is drawing up their policys? It is like us
:12:57. > :13:03.asking Bob Crow to do a report for us on the railways! That is bizarre.
:13:03. > :13:09.Secondly, if Cameron has decided to bury this, he is right. What
:13:09. > :13:13.Cameron and Osborne were trying to do - they were the ones who
:13:13. > :13:17.proposed every worker had the right to request flexible working. We had
:13:17. > :13:22.introduced it for parents of children up to age six and disabled
:13:22. > :13:25.children up to 18. I remember an article by George Osborne, "We are
:13:25. > :13:29.now the progressive party." It militated against that. Cable's
:13:30. > :13:34.right. I have not met a single - I have met business people like
:13:34. > :13:40.Martin, who is a great advert for British business, saying we need a
:13:40. > :13:45.flexible labour market - and we do. The Beecroft proposal - this is the
:13:45. > :13:54.big issue. The Beecroft proposal to fire anyone, which he himself says
:13:54. > :13:59.could mean some employers firing What would do you about the TUPE
:13:59. > :14:04.stuff? It's different stuff. You say about advertising. It's part of
:14:04. > :14:07.the Beecroft... TUPE was introduced specifically to prebgt those groups
:14:07. > :14:11.of workers like cleaners in organisations who were farmed out
:14:11. > :14:17.to a private company. These are the most defenceless vulnerable workers
:14:17. > :14:20.in the market. You get some kind of protection. Let me bring Michael in.
:14:20. > :14:25.I agreed with Martin who I thought made his case in a very moderate
:14:25. > :14:29.way. He didn't advocate the firing at will. But a couple of things
:14:29. > :14:32.that he did raise, I think it is extraordinary that these preserve
:14:32. > :14:36.rights apply in the case of the advertising agencies, that seems
:14:36. > :14:40.bizarre. You quoted a French case about Tribunals but the British
:14:40. > :14:43.cases of Tribunals seem to be absolutely bad enough, which is
:14:43. > :14:49.that an employee who has been dismissed can tie up the employer
:14:49. > :14:51.in years of litigation with immense legal costs, unbelievably
:14:51. > :14:54.disproportionate settlements at the end and it seems that there is an
:14:54. > :14:57.area where you might say look, if you are going to get rid of an
:14:57. > :15:01.employee it's going to cost you some money, but at least you get a
:15:01. > :15:05.guarantee if you are you are willing to pay that it doesn't take
:15:05. > :15:10.to you a Tribunal and that gets tieed up with lawyers for years.
:15:10. > :15:15.What is wrong with no-fault dismissal. It's too crude and it's
:15:15. > :15:24.too heartless. What change would you make? I think the changes that
:15:24. > :15:30.I make is, I probably at the end of the day in terms of of retkupbdancy
:15:30. > :15:34.payments be less fixed, liberal and give as a result more flexibility
:15:34. > :15:38.in the structure. The problem is this, if you are thinking about the
:15:38. > :15:43.allocation of resources between say western Europe, the United States,
:15:43. > :15:47.Asia, Latin America, you are naturally drawn to those higher
:15:47. > :15:52.tkproet -- growth where ares where the risk-reward ratio is more
:15:52. > :15:57.balanced. I can't find a client that it really wants to increase
:15:57. > :16:06.their capacity in western Europe. UK is slightly different, I take
:16:06. > :16:13.Alan's point. It is more flexible. Our labour taxes are not nearly as
:16:13. > :16:17.high. When we - we pay 1.2 billion dollars a year in social taxes, 800
:16:17. > :16:21.million by the company. That's still low by French and German
:16:21. > :16:26.standards. The highest per head is France, actually at 45,000. The low
:16:26. > :16:30.ses China at 4,000 which gives you an idea of where it's going to go.
:16:30. > :16:35.It's going to even out over time. The UK is better, you are right,
:16:35. > :16:38.the consultation processes put a rigidity in the process that makes
:16:38. > :16:44.it difficult and you are naturally concerned about the risks and the
:16:44. > :16:48.risks of incrossing capacity. I can't find a CEO or CMO who doesn't
:16:48. > :16:52.want to expand on the other hand in Asia and Latin America and the
:16:52. > :16:55.phaoes. If we want to stimulate growth we have to change the
:16:55. > :16:59.mindset a bit. Coming back, one of the things you didn't include in
:16:59. > :17:02.the film, I was asked what is the one thing the government can do?
:17:02. > :17:06.It's scandalous, youth unemployment is scandalous because if the
:17:06. > :17:11.general rate in unemployment is 8- 9%, it's double in terms of youth.
:17:11. > :17:17.What we have to do is steupl lit - I was -- stimulate. We should
:17:17. > :17:24.subsidise youth employment. National insurance... That's what I
:17:24. > :17:28.mentioned. That's what Lagarde was suggesting. It may be right, it may
:17:28. > :17:32.be wrong to make the supply of labour more efficient, the real
:17:32. > :17:37.reason this economy is not grow something nothing to do with supply,
:17:37. > :17:41.there's no demand. That's the real problem. Not Beecroft. That's the
:17:41. > :17:45.real problem. I entirely agree. However, within whatever situation
:17:45. > :17:47.you have got employers are going to be more or less willing to take
:17:47. > :17:50.people on and I perfectly understand that you would be
:17:50. > :17:54.frightened of taking people on if you thought that if toud let them
:17:54. > :18:00.go in six months, let's say a year, they were going to tie you
:18:00. > :18:03.newspaper a a Tribunal. That's where I agree with Vince Cable. He
:18:03. > :18:06.said that what we need is a plan. What we got from the coalition
:18:06. > :18:12.government is addressing the rate of increase in spending but we
:18:12. > :18:16.haven't got a consistent plan that lifts people's eyes and Hearts and
:18:16. > :18:20.eyes to the horizon, rather than looking at their boots. We need a
:18:20. > :18:26.plan. We haven't got it. Thank you very much.
:18:26. > :18:31.It's late in the day. Michael and Alan may be our own double dip
:18:31. > :18:36.recession but this is no time for faint Hearts or plan Bs. We are
:18:36. > :18:40.sticking with plan A and discussing addiction with Kerry Katona. For
:18:40. > :18:45.those of whou can't get enough of This Week you can get your fix on
:18:45. > :18:51.the Twitter or the interweb and new at a new rip-off price the brand
:18:51. > :18:55.new the Fleecebook. Olympic fever is owe pigsly here --
:18:55. > :18:58.officially here. The flame has been touring all over British soil this
:18:58. > :19:02.week and the time has come to throw all the rules about BBC
:19:02. > :19:08.impartiality to the wind and make it career on this show we are
:19:08. > :19:13.backing Spain for gold. Have you been messing around with the - have
:19:13. > :19:20.you changed the autocue! Never mind, I apologise. We called in our own
:19:20. > :19:30.own sporting hero. The Surrey under-16 egg and spoon champion of
:19:30. > :19:30.
:19:30. > :20:10.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 40 seconds
:20:10. > :20:16.1983, tpheubg Watt for his roundup You know, it's quite an effort
:20:16. > :20:20.keeping alive the flame. It feels sometimes like you are going around
:20:20. > :20:26.in circles. David Cameron felt a bit like that this week when he
:20:26. > :20:30.went to three sum mitts in just one week. We need decisive plans to
:20:30. > :20:35.help get the European economies moving. If we are not going to keep
:20:35. > :20:43.coming back to meetings like this we need to deal with longer term
:20:43. > :20:51.issues at the heart of running a skaesful -- successful single
:20:51. > :20:55.currency. His deputy, Nick Clegg, who keeps alive the flame of
:20:55. > :21:02.European Union sympathied with those leaders when he said we are
:21:02. > :21:09.all in it together and we all have to help the euro. No one should
:21:09. > :21:19.labour under the false hope that somehow Greece leaving the eurozone
:21:19. > :21:30.
:21:30. > :21:34.can provide instant relief to the Now that the torch has arrived, the
:21:34. > :21:43.eyes of the world oren Britain. Yes, the IMF pitched up in town this
:21:43. > :21:48.week for our annual economic health check. When I think back myself of
:21:48. > :21:53.May 2010 when the UK deficit was at 11% and I try to imagine what the
:21:53. > :22:02.situation would be like today if no such fiscal consolidation programme
:22:02. > :22:07.had been decided. I shiver. George glowed when Christine gave him that
:22:07. > :22:09.vote of confidence. But Ed Balls said that the Queen of the IMF had
:22:09. > :22:13.awarded the Chancellor a wooden spoon after warning that Britain
:22:13. > :22:17.may have to draw up a plan B involving tax cuts to revive the
:22:17. > :22:21.economy. We have a recession made in Downing
:22:21. > :22:24.Street, the IMF has been saying for months it's not working, change
:22:24. > :22:28.course. Now is the time to change course.
:22:28. > :22:35.Since packing away his Bullingdon tales, David Cameron has thought of
:22:35. > :22:41.himself as a gentleman prime Minister who relaxes by beating the
:22:41. > :22:46.skaf clegger-tennis machine and playing the odd game of Fruit Ninja
:22:46. > :22:52.on his iPad. But he broke a Cardinal rule this week. He allowed
:22:52. > :23:02.a swot from a minor Oxford college to get under his skin. If we
:23:02. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:10.listened to the muttering idiot sitting opposite me... The prime
:23:10. > :23:15.Minister will please wrau the word "it kwrot" -- idiot. In fact, there
:23:15. > :23:19.was a grating prime Minister's questions all round.
:23:19. > :23:22.Can the prime Minister tell us what impression he thinks it gives about
:23:22. > :23:27.his government that he commissions advice from a multimillionaire who
:23:27. > :23:32.recommends making it easier to sack people on low pay, at the same time
:23:32. > :23:35.as giving people like him tens of thousands of pounds in a
:23:35. > :23:40.millionaires tax cut? I tell whau we would do on this side of the
:23:40. > :23:44.House. We commission a report, we accept the bits we agree with,
:23:44. > :23:54.reject the bits we don't agree with. He takes instructions from his
:23:54. > :24:02.
:24:02. > :24:06.trade union pay Masters and cannot Yes, there was some extraordinary
:24:06. > :24:10.competitors on the track, people we hadn't heard of until a few weeks
:24:11. > :24:16.ago and one goody-two-shoes who thought the Olympics would be yet
:24:16. > :24:20.another step on his glorious ride to the top. Yes, our Olympics
:24:20. > :24:24.Minister Jeremy Hunt probably watched with care aeuz his former
:24:24. > :24:29.special advisor Adam Smith gave evidence to the Leveson Inquiry. Up
:24:29. > :24:36.too was the supersmooth Fred Michel, the lobbyist whose e-mails with
:24:36. > :24:40.Adam Smith proved perhaps a little too cosy. Is this the case, you
:24:40. > :24:45.believe that actually this is a communication with the Secretary of
:24:45. > :24:55.State through the mouth of Mr Smith? I believe that whatever Mr
:24:55. > :24:56.
:24:56. > :25:01.Smith tells me represents the view of the Secretary of State, yeah.
:25:01. > :25:09.Yes, the end is nearly in sight, yes! Thank you, thank you.
:25:09. > :25:19.Congratulations. What a great win. Oh, no!
:25:19. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:31.The flame's got out. Quick! And a big thanks for Nick's fellow
:25:31. > :25:38.owe Olympicens. We are joined by pheur and tka Green -- pheur and
:25:38. > :25:42.tka Green. -- Miranda. It's a terrible background horror. Alexis
:25:42. > :25:45.Tsipras should be a natural for your sofa with his no tie approach
:25:45. > :25:50.to showing that he is a new breed of politician who is not going to
:25:50. > :25:54.take lessons from the rest of Europe on how Greece should run
:25:54. > :25:58.itself. It's very worrying. Then you can do without the money.
:25:58. > :26:01.It's a relent last backdrop and the failure to resolve it one way or
:26:01. > :26:05.the other is a drag on every economy in the continent and even
:26:05. > :26:10.Mr Obama is worried that it's a drag on the ufrplt S economy.
:26:10. > :26:15.not just the same. Things are getting worse all the time. Thure
:26:15. > :26:18.is falling now, mark he is are -- markets are being hit across Europe.
:26:18. > :26:26.The likelihood of Greece going out increases every day. The fear of a
:26:26. > :26:30.run on the banks is onmipresent and everybody is talking nonsense and
:26:30. > :26:33.double Dutch. Christine Lagarde is kind of saying on the one hand it's
:26:33. > :26:36.very good that we embarked on the austerity programme. On the other
:26:36. > :26:40.hand we have to do something about growth. The prime Minister who
:26:40. > :26:44.believes in austerity is advocating growth for everybody else. He is
:26:44. > :26:48.telling the Germans they should be issuing euro bonds. That is a load
:26:48. > :26:54.of nonsense, that really is... never going to happen. That's the
:26:54. > :26:57.way to perdition in a hurry. It is getting worse, the nations of
:26:57. > :27:04.Europe are deeply divided and lots of them are saying different things
:27:04. > :27:07.on different days of the week. Mrs Merkel bluffing when it comes
:27:07. > :27:17.to Greek exit or do you think the Germans are prepared to let them
:27:17. > :27:21.go? What's going on is a bit of, sort of prop prop -- propoganda - I
:27:21. > :27:24.watched Michael's programme do you want the euro or the drachma, it
:27:24. > :27:27.didn't whether they were unemployed or millionaires, they wanted the
:27:27. > :27:31.euro. There is a bit of positioning. They had this conference in the
:27:31. > :27:36.week, do you remember, European Union Ministers, about contingency
:27:36. > :27:41.plans for gross coming out of -- Greece coming out of the euro. A
:27:41. > :27:46.lot of that is about getting the message to the Greek people...
:27:46. > :27:50.use an overused word this week it would be bonkers not to have
:27:50. > :27:53.contingency plans. I would have think would you have been so public
:27:53. > :27:58.about announcing you are preparing contingency plans unless you wanted
:27:58. > :28:03.to get a message across. Germans are at the end of their
:28:03. > :28:08.tether. They've had it with Greece. When Mr Clegg says no rarbgsal
:28:08. > :28:12.person -- rational person can want Greece to leave, what does he mean?
:28:12. > :28:22.Is he saying you are bonkers if you want Greece to leave? Whether
:28:22. > :28:22.
:28:22. > :28:25.Greece should leave or stay is a fine judgment and neither argument
:28:25. > :28:28.for or against is bonkers. I think what he was trying to do was a
:28:28. > :28:30.Christine Lagarde, you know, you played the clip of her saying she
:28:30. > :28:33.shivers if she thinks what would have happened out an austerity
:28:33. > :28:36.programme. What Clegg was trying to say was anyone who thinks for their
:28:36. > :28:40.own political reasons and because of their own political
:28:40. > :28:44.preoccupations the demise of the sure a good thing that they should
:28:44. > :28:47.cheer... It was Greece, Greece can leave the euro and the euro can
:28:47. > :28:53.survive. Sure. That's a different issue. Sure, but what he was trying
:28:53. > :28:56.to say was that, as Michael pointed out, this toelt disaster on our --
:28:56. > :29:00.total disaster with our largest trading partner is really, really
:29:00. > :29:03.bad for the UK economy. It's quite right that people have been
:29:03. > :29:09.pointing out today that problems in our own construction sector, as you
:29:09. > :29:18.have been saying, a lot to do with demand here, but nevertheless,
:29:18. > :29:25.these cataclysmic events will have If you have the Prime Minister
:29:25. > :29:30.saying it is time the eurozone should make up or break up, when
:29:30. > :29:34.you have Mr Clegg saying no rational personal can talk about
:29:34. > :29:39.break-up, I would call that friction? I don't think that is
:29:39. > :29:49.right. The entire coalition is in favour of the euro surviving with
:29:49. > :29:54.all its members. I find that a curious position. You think Mr
:29:54. > :29:58.Cameron still thinks that all the stops should be pulled out to keep
:29:58. > :30:03.Greece in the eurozone? That is not what he says. That is what he is
:30:03. > :30:07.saying. When did he say that? said they have to make up or break-
:30:07. > :30:13.up. That is a description of the situation. You disagree with that.
:30:13. > :30:18.That is what he is saying. If one member falls out the eurozone,
:30:18. > :30:23.there is a break in the eurozone. It is the exposure of UK banks to
:30:23. > :30:29.Greece. Yeah. UK banks are not exposed to Greece, they are not. It
:30:29. > :30:33.is a small amount, about six billion. Very small. They are much
:30:33. > :30:39.more exposed to Spain. I understand people being frightened about
:30:39. > :30:42.Greece coming out. If people in Portugal and Greece start demanding
:30:42. > :30:46.they take their money out of the banks, we will be in terrible
:30:47. > :30:50.trouble. It seems to me the Greeks have a much better chance of being
:30:50. > :30:53.out and the euro has a better chance of the Greeks being out. If
:30:53. > :31:01.only we could get ourselfs from here to there. Nobody know what is
:31:01. > :31:08.the knock on cost also be in terms of GDP hit. The country that has a
:31:08. > :31:12.lot to worry about is France. It's got huge exposure to the Club Med
:31:12. > :31:17.companies. Let's move back to the domestic front and Leveson. How
:31:17. > :31:22.damaging is it for the Prime Minister that he removes Vince
:31:22. > :31:27.Cable from the BSkyB process because he's clearly biased against
:31:27. > :31:34.the takeover and replaces him with Mr Hunt who is clearly biased in
:31:34. > :31:36.favour of the takeover? It is pretty bad. I think this constant
:31:36. > :31:42.drip-drip from Leveson is very serious in terms of not just the
:31:42. > :31:47.Prime Minister's judgment, but also there is this question of character
:31:47. > :31:51.which is fundamental in politics. I think those who dismiss this whole
:31:51. > :31:56.Leveson Inquiry as a SW1 Westminster story are missing the
:31:56. > :32:01.point. A lot of people say to me, it is you, you are obsessed with it.
:32:01. > :32:11.Of course. There is a recession on. I don't dismiss it. I don't think
:32:11. > :32:12.
:32:12. > :32:17.this is a killer fact. I think any minister is entitled to express his
:32:17. > :32:25.opinion whilst he is in Cabinet. Once Jeremy Hunt had been appointed
:32:25. > :32:30.after he had expressed that opinion, did he behave in a quasi-judicial
:32:30. > :32:35.way? The special adviser didn't. That is the difficulty. The special
:32:35. > :32:42.adviser was not acting in that way. It is inconceivable that a special
:32:42. > :32:45.adviser, who is appointed almost as your friend - they are... Your
:32:45. > :32:49.extra limb. Your special adviser can be doing all of that without
:32:49. > :32:53.you being aware of it? Smith seems to have got away quite lightly
:32:53. > :32:58.today. He is back on tomorrow. there is a second stage of it. This
:32:58. > :33:03.is where Hunt... It is drip-drip rather than the killer facts so far.
:33:03. > :33:05.Will Mr Hunt survive, "yes" or "no"? He will have to be moved from
:33:05. > :33:10.his present position because Leveson will report and he can't
:33:10. > :33:17.report to him. Will he? He should not survive. Cameron should be more
:33:17. > :33:21.ruthless with his friends. No, he won't survive. Sorry Mr Hunt. Mr
:33:21. > :33:27.Cameron's temper. Downing Street says it shows he is human. Does it?
:33:27. > :33:37.Is it a problem? I think it's unwise of him to let go like that.
:33:37. > :33:37.
:33:38. > :33:44.I think he has a bit of a flair for emanyty, particularly at PMQs --
:33:44. > :33:51.emnity, particularly at PMQs. Look at the way he insulted Nadine Doris.
:33:51. > :34:01.She is a particular issue. We can't see it when we do PMQs live every
:34:01. > :34:05.Wednesday. I am told that Ed Balls is a constant niggle? For Blair,
:34:05. > :34:10.Blair had John Bercow. On the frontbench, they are always there
:34:10. > :34:15.to try and put you off. They are always doing things like that.
:34:15. > :34:25.Perhaps this passes as light- hearted wit, but it doesn't come
:34:25. > :34:26.
:34:26. > :34:30.over well to the public. David Cameron's lack of statesmanship in
:34:30. > :34:33.those circumstances doesn't go down well with the public. He has a
:34:34. > :34:38.talent for scorn. The benches behind him love it. All right.
:34:38. > :34:44.Let's go on to the real question of the week. Is it true you have
:34:44. > :34:49.ambitions to be London Mayor? You don't? No. But don't rule
:34:49. > :34:53.anything out. My allegiance is to Hull. You will - you have to stand
:34:53. > :34:57.down as MP before the next election to run for Mayor? I would think so.
:34:57. > :35:03.You thinking about it? No. I thought about it last time. I had
:35:03. > :35:07.just been elected. We told you there had been a Johnson running?
:35:08. > :35:14.You did. You are tempted? No, you don't rule anything out. I don't
:35:14. > :35:24.know what the situation will be in 2016. You heard it here first.
:35:24. > :35:33.
:35:33. > :35:36.LAUGHTER Very interesting. Now, we know how hard it is to kick
:35:36. > :35:38.a bad habit here on This Week. Whether it's jacking-up on Alan
:35:38. > :35:41.Johnson, or mainlining Michael Portillo, our conversational drugs
:35:41. > :35:44.of choice are not big, or clever. But with the Work and Pensions
:35:44. > :35:46.Secretary giving Jobcentres the power to cut welfare benefits to
:35:46. > :35:49.alcoholics and drug addicts in the hope they'll enroll on treatment
:35:49. > :35:52.programmes, we have to wonder who's been smoking the whacky-backy and
:35:52. > :35:55.whether we need to stage an intervention on Iain Duncan Smith's
:35:55. > :36:05.behalf? That's why we've decided to put addiction in this week's
:36:05. > :36:05.
:36:05. > :36:11.Spotlight. The Festival season is about to
:36:11. > :36:15.kick-off and figures show party people are turning to austerity
:36:15. > :36:19.drugs such as horse tranquillisers to make the muddy fields more
:36:19. > :36:23.manageable. Politicians have been gathering advice from former users
:36:23. > :36:28.on how best to tackle Britain's addiction problem. For me what's
:36:28. > :36:33.more significant is the way that we socially regard the condition of
:36:33. > :36:38.addiction. It is something that I consider to be an illness and
:36:38. > :36:42.therefore more a health matter than a criminal or judicial matter.
:36:42. > :36:46.how can Government convince alcoholics and drug addicts finally
:36:46. > :36:51.to kick the habit? Iain Duncan Smith thinks the welfare system
:36:51. > :36:55.could play a role and taking away benefits may do the trick. Is it
:36:55. > :36:58.realistic to think that those with the dependency problem will respond
:36:58. > :37:03.to the stick rather than the carrot?
:37:04. > :37:09.The doctor said to me, for depression go to the gym, exercise.
:37:09. > :37:17.My exercise was a few lines of cocaine and a kebab! I wonder if
:37:18. > :37:22.Kerrie has her doubts. Kerrie joins us now. Welcome.
:37:22. > :37:26.you. Tell me, when it comes, given what you have been through, when it
:37:26. > :37:32.comes to drugs, alcohol, and so on, do you ever get the impression that
:37:32. > :37:37.politicians don't have a clue? feel from my personal experience
:37:37. > :37:40.that politicians in a certain way look down at addiction and
:37:40. > :37:44.alcoholism. It's something they kind of want to hide or brush under
:37:44. > :37:49.the carpet rather thanksgiving out a helping hand. No-one wants to
:37:49. > :37:53.deal with the fact that people have problems. And what do you think is
:37:53. > :37:58.the best strategy? Is it carrot or stick? I definitely think you need
:37:58. > :38:02.to give them a helping hand. I don't think by telling them - you
:38:02. > :38:05.can't receive your benefits, it is either your benefits or drugs. That
:38:05. > :38:10.won't work. Addiction is an addiction. People don't wake up
:38:10. > :38:16.going, "Today, I want to be a drug addict." These things happen for a
:38:16. > :38:23.reason. There is a story behind it. I think it should be encouraged by
:38:23. > :38:28.helping them and encouraging them to go to rehab, and working away at
:38:28. > :38:33.how to get them off the addiction. These people who take drugs, as I
:38:33. > :38:39.did, I had low self-esteem, I was in four walls, cocaine was my only
:38:40. > :38:48.friend. I was embarrassed by being on drugs. I had no-one else to turn
:38:48. > :38:53.to. Cocaine was my only friend. think saying if you carry on like
:38:54. > :38:57.this, we will take away your benefits, that would encourage you
:38:57. > :39:01.to get treatment? I think, if someone said that to me and I was
:39:02. > :39:06.in a situation of going through bankruptcy, I had four kids to feed
:39:06. > :39:13.as well, being dictated to like that, as addiction, it can't be
:39:13. > :39:18.right, OK, I will stop. If that was the case, everyone would stop. This
:39:18. > :39:23.can encourage crime. Some parents have got nothing, they have
:39:24. > :39:28.children to feed - prostitution, theft. It can go crazy. You can see
:39:28. > :39:33.why people get upset, you are getting welfare benefits, the rest
:39:34. > :39:39.the tax papers are paying and a lot of it goes on drugs. I don't quite
:39:39. > :39:44.see withdrawing these benefits means you are waking up to your
:39:44. > :39:50.circumstances? Kerrie wants the Government to offer help. -- Kerry
:39:50. > :39:54.wants the Government to offer help. If people are refusing the basic
:39:54. > :39:57.things to help themselves, why should we go on subsidising them?
:39:57. > :40:01.What is the treatment you will be offering them? The treatments that
:40:01. > :40:04.are available that the Government does offer. It says here is
:40:04. > :40:08.rehabilitation, here are courses. If you refuse to take them, we
:40:08. > :40:13.won't go on paying your benefit. This point about if they don't get
:40:13. > :40:18.the benefit, they will go stealing. I don't think benefits we paid,
:40:18. > :40:23.they won't pay for your cocaine habit. I understand all that. There
:40:23. > :40:27.is a story... Benefits are not designed to pay for the cocaine
:40:28. > :40:32.habit either. I know. A lot of the people on benefits, it is not they
:40:32. > :40:35.have decided to be an addict, they are under pressure because of loss
:40:35. > :40:39.of jobs... This is adding more pressure to go on the treatment.
:40:39. > :40:42.These arguments seem to go round in circles through the generations
:40:42. > :40:46.when it comes to a political response to drug addiction and
:40:46. > :40:50.treatment. I wouldn't discount anything Iain Duncan Smith said out
:40:50. > :40:56.of hand. I think he genuinely cares... He thinks about these
:40:56. > :41:03.things. He does. My experience was, the most effective scheme I saw for
:41:03. > :41:06.drug addicts - it is a different issue about alcoholism - was we
:41:06. > :41:11.started to prescribe, the Government gave them heroin,
:41:11. > :41:15.reduced the amounts - they had to agree to come on this programme -
:41:15. > :41:18.reduced the amounts gradually, encompass that with a lot of help
:41:18. > :41:23.and support, had an employer at the end of it that would give them a
:41:23. > :41:27.job and it had amazing results. A bad headline, Government
:41:27. > :41:33.prescribing drugs, but it has to have that all-round approach.
:41:33. > :41:39.Michael's - it is crude to say that you just take the benefit away. The
:41:39. > :41:45.next step is what? The next step is they could be in prison. They will
:41:45. > :41:50.get more drugs than ever in prison! And they are probably cheaper. Did
:41:50. > :41:57.it take a while for your treatment to work? What treatment did work?
:41:57. > :42:02.spent - I must have spent �100,000 going to rehab, or doing a course.
:42:02. > :42:10.These were private clinics which most people wouldn't have the money
:42:10. > :42:13.for? That didn't work. I went to the Priory, to Arizona, I came out
:42:13. > :42:19.a stone heavier with prescription medication, which was masking my
:42:19. > :42:23.problem. The only thing that worked for me was I went to bootcamp in
:42:24. > :42:29.2010 which was military-based exercise for six hours a day,
:42:29. > :42:33.eating healthily for two weeks and I was in bankruptcy, I was getting
:42:33. > :42:38.divorced, I lost my house, I had a cocaine addiction, I was drinking,
:42:38. > :42:48.I almost lost my four children. Those two weeks of pure exercise
:42:48. > :42:48.
:42:48. > :42:54.for me with blood, sweat and tears, at the end of them two weeks, the
:42:54. > :42:59.endorphines was the first natural high I... Is everything good now?
:42:59. > :43:04.have to get up and do the school run! You don't have to deal with
:43:04. > :43:10.these two every week. I'm glad I'm going. Thank you for being with us.
:43:10. > :43:12.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us because it's Social
:43:12. > :43:15.Mobility Night at Annabel's and Nick Clegg's demonstrated his
:43:15. > :43:18.noblesse oblige, by sticking us all on the paying guest-list. Kerry's
:43:18. > :43:22.agreed to be Michael's plus-one and Michael's agreed to let the
:43:22. > :43:25.bouncers frisk him - twice. But we leave tonight with a man