:00:17. > :00:20.SONG: Diamonds Are Forever. Tonight on This Week: As Britain's
:00:20. > :00:25.biggest Diamond loses his sparkle - and his job - politicians argue
:00:25. > :00:27.over how to clean up the City. American author and former City
:00:27. > :00:35.Girl, Barbara Stcherbatcheff, tells us why banking is so full of
:00:35. > :00:41.imperfections. Clearly there's a lot that needs to change about City
:00:41. > :00:44.culture. If women were in charge, we might be in less of a mess.
:00:44. > :00:49.At Westminster, politicians are not just trying to cut bankers down to
:00:49. > :00:56.size, but announcing major cuts to the Army. The Sun's Jane Moore is
:00:56. > :01:02.judging whether the news can be polished. Just as Dave's inner Tory
:01:02. > :01:04.seems to be breaking free, it's been put back under lock and key.
:01:04. > :01:07.And some things are just more precious than diamonds, as
:01:07. > :01:17.scientists make an historic discovery about the universe. 24-
:01:17. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:28.carat Professor, Brian Cox, is bedazzled. Diamond probably aren't
:01:28. > :01:32.
:01:32. > :01:35.forever, because even protons decay. Diamonds are forevahhhh... Evenin'
:01:35. > :01:39.all. Welcome to This Week, the Diamante jewel in the BBC's
:01:39. > :01:41.political crown. And welcome to a new age of science and
:01:41. > :01:44.enlightenment, because tonight, dear viewer, we can confirm the
:01:44. > :01:48.existence of something that, until now, has avoided all attempts at
:01:48. > :01:52.discovery. There has been speculation for years, but firm
:01:52. > :01:54.evidence was stubbornly hard to come by. No I'm not talking about
:01:54. > :02:03.the "Greed particle", which explains why Barclay's gave a new
:02:03. > :02:06.meaning to fixed interest. Boom- boom. That's been around for years.
:02:06. > :02:08.No, I'm talking about something far harder to spot. But yesterday when
:02:08. > :02:11.Bob Diamond "isn't forever after all" appeared before the Treasury
:02:11. > :02:14.Select Committee, we finally witnessed what had been up until
:02:14. > :02:16.now only a theoretical possibility. Yes, for a few flickering moments,
:02:16. > :02:18.and using highly calibrated journalistic instruments
:02:18. > :02:20.specifically designed to measure things of infinitesimal size, there
:02:20. > :02:23.was the faintest glimpse of something that has eluded
:02:23. > :02:33.Westminster observers since the beginning of time itself - an MP's
:02:33. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:36.backbone, in close proximity to a banker. Sceptics claim that until
:02:36. > :02:39.the phenomena is replicated on a larger scale, it's far too early to
:02:39. > :02:44.tell whether this was a genuine backbone or merely the traditional
:02:44. > :02:48.sighting of an MP showing off because they're on the telly.
:02:48. > :02:51.Speaking of those who have no need to grow a pair, I'm joined on the
:02:51. > :02:58.sofa tonight by two men who often cause Bob Diamond to be physically
:02:58. > :03:00.ill. Me too! The big boy, and big hair, of late night political chat.
:03:00. > :03:02.I speak, of course, of #rivieragigolo Alastair "did I
:03:02. > :03:11.mention my diaries?" Campbell. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo-choo"
:03:11. > :03:15.Portillo. Welcome to you both. Thank you Andrew. Your moment of
:03:15. > :03:21.the week? I think the decision of the Bank of England to print
:03:21. > :03:29.another �50 billion worth of stuff today. This takes it up to �375
:03:29. > :03:34.billion. It reminds me of, you know in those American ER films where a
:03:34. > :03:39.body comes in on a stretcher and they say, "Clear!" and they put on
:03:39. > :03:43.a couple of electrodes and it has a spasm. This is about the fourth
:03:43. > :03:52.time these electrodes have been applied to the British economy.
:03:52. > :03:57.the body is still stiff. There is quivering from the legs but no sign
:03:57. > :04:01.of life. Alastair? My moment of the week was the joy in Spain at the
:04:01. > :04:06.winning the euros and the next morning weigh up to the economic
:04:06. > :04:11.reality, but just showing that sport can give a country a massive
:04:11. > :04:15.lift. For a fleeting moment. For a few brief moments. It was
:04:15. > :04:18.extraordinary. Amazing. outpouring in Madrid. Great scenes
:04:18. > :04:20.in Madrid. Now, that Diamond geezer from
:04:20. > :04:24.Barclays won't easily forget this week. First, he was forced to
:04:24. > :04:27.resign, then forced to learn the first names of a bunch of lowly MPs
:04:27. > :04:31.on the Treasury Select Committee. But is the root of his problem not
:04:31. > :04:34.rate fixing but too much testosterone? You only have to look
:04:34. > :04:37.at our sofa to know what a problem that can be. And former city girl
:04:37. > :04:47.Barbara Stcherbatcheff thinks it's a big problem in the Square mile,
:04:47. > :04:48.
:04:48. > :04:51.so we've asked her for her take of the week.
:04:51. > :04:55.# A kiss on the hand may be quite Continental
:04:55. > :05:00.# But diamonds are a girl's best friend... #
:05:00. > :05:05.When I worked in the City, many of these diamond would have been
:05:05. > :05:10.within my means. Now all I can do is look. I worked in London's
:05:10. > :05:13.financial centre for five years, surrounded by the fast cars, fancy
:05:13. > :05:18.lifestyles and champagne that many people envy. Sounds great, right?
:05:18. > :05:21.For the guys, absolutely, but there's a dark side to all the fun
:05:21. > :05:25.and games. Unfortunately, this latest scandal with Barclays and
:05:25. > :05:29.LIBOR appears to be the tip of the iceberg. It is amazing some of
:05:29. > :05:33.these traders involved appear not to fear getting caught. It only
:05:33. > :05:36.goes to show the sheer arrogance and pig-headedness in that
:05:36. > :05:42.permeates much of London's financial community.
:05:42. > :05:46.# There may come a time when a wife needs a lawyer
:05:46. > :05:50.# But diamonds are a girl's best friend... #
:05:50. > :05:55.Two issues have contributed to such a destructive environment. The
:05:55. > :05:59.first is something we can probably do something about - the business
:05:59. > :06:04.model. The short-term risk-taking culture which fuels excessive
:06:04. > :06:09.gambling in the sector. This can be corrected. But the second issue is
:06:09. > :06:16.much harder to office, and that is greed. They say trading is a man's
:06:16. > :06:20.game, but I don't believe the hype. Everybody knows that women are more
:06:20. > :06:29.intuitive, less aggressive and egotistical, which means they tend
:06:29. > :06:34.to be more consistent traders who don't rack up huge losses. How many
:06:34. > :06:37.rogue or disgraced traders do you know who are women in zero.
:06:37. > :06:42.Statistically they are better traders. Researchers at Cambridge
:06:42. > :06:47.found a link between trading and testosterone that those with too
:06:47. > :06:57.much testosterone became drunk with success, so overconfident they
:06:57. > :06:59.
:07:00. > :07:03.could no longer properly make sound decisions. The City now condones or
:07:04. > :07:08.even demands male traits. The pressure to conform sun relenting.
:07:08. > :07:18.As a woman in the Square Mile you either buy into it or you leave.
:07:18. > :07:18.
:07:18. > :07:22.Just like I did. Barbara Stcherbatcheff in the 77 diamond
:07:22. > :07:27.studio of central London. She is in our little diamond studio now.
:07:27. > :07:33.Welcome. So you think it is all down to a male macho culture, is
:07:33. > :07:37.that the real reason? I wouldn't oversimplify it. I would think that,
:07:37. > :07:42.my book describes City culture in great depth. There are 200 books on
:07:42. > :07:47.the chef about the City and how it caused the credit crunch and all
:07:47. > :07:53.this, but mine is the real one that gets to the pig-headedness that
:07:53. > :07:56.permeates the financial industry in London. Maybe that it is behind
:07:56. > :08:02.some of the bad behaviour we've seen. Do you think it is related to
:08:02. > :08:09.the City this kind of macho culture? Yeah, I do. You do? You
:08:09. > :08:14.should try a tabloid newsroom! A good point. Especially when it is
:08:14. > :08:18.run by a woman. That's the point in a way. I will come to you on that.
:08:18. > :08:23.Often for the women to get on in these macho cultures, whether it is
:08:23. > :08:29.a City trading floor or a tabloid news floor, the women have to
:08:29. > :08:36.behave like men. I don't think they do. You didn't behave like a man
:08:36. > :08:42.did you? I was very much one of the guys. I like adrenaline sports. As
:08:43. > :08:47.long as you can dish it out. That's the way to get on, to be like them.
:08:47. > :08:51.It is. No-one ever treated me badly in the City. Journalists are always
:08:51. > :08:55.trying to tell me that you are blonde and you are I don't think,
:08:55. > :08:59.people treated you so badly. That's not the way it works now days. It
:08:59. > :09:03.is just sort of like, you would have this extreme macho culture,
:09:03. > :09:07.but there is other male-dominated industries, medicine and
:09:07. > :09:11.architecture. They don't behave like that. They don't spend 50
:09:11. > :09:16.grand... Did you have to do all that shouting and screaming? Is
:09:16. > :09:21.there no other way you can be on a trading floor and behave like that?
:09:21. > :09:26.Some of the best traders sit there quietly all day long in front of
:09:26. > :09:31.their screen. That's posturing. you buy the testosterone arguments?
:09:31. > :09:35.I think I have a more economic analysis. If you incentivise people
:09:35. > :09:38.to make as much money as they possibly can, if you have a no
:09:38. > :09:44.moral code that surround the thing, if you have almost no chance that
:09:44. > :09:48.people are going to be named and shamed and and disgraced. If you
:09:48. > :09:53.have almost zero chance that they are going to be prosecuted, even if
:09:53. > :09:59.the bank was bankrupted it would be allowed to fairblgs it leads to
:09:59. > :10:04.catastrophic behaviour. There is no great puzzle to this. Which you
:10:04. > :10:08.might get if there were a lot more women on there trading floor.
:10:08. > :10:12.think having more women on the trading floor might be a civilising
:10:12. > :10:19.force. I don't think that having more women in the City is the
:10:19. > :10:23.salvation of the City. I think that there is maybe greed and
:10:23. > :10:28.deceitfulness this is factor in what we've seen in the past week.
:10:28. > :10:33.Maybe those are arguably more male characteristics. There are more
:10:34. > :10:38.women in tabloid newsrooms now than there are 30 years ago. Has that
:10:39. > :10:42.made a change to the atmosphere, do you think? I'm not in tabloid
:10:42. > :10:46.newsrooms any more, but I don't think it has. A dominant culture
:10:46. > :10:50.takes a long time to change and move to a difficulty position. The
:10:50. > :10:55.little I know about the way City trading operates, that is a culture
:10:55. > :10:58.that even what's going on now it will be very hard to shift it. You
:10:58. > :11:05.say that you didn't feel badly treated because you were young and
:11:05. > :11:11.blonde and the rest of it, but when we talk about the testosterone-
:11:11. > :11:15.filled atmosphere, isn't that not a difficult place for a young woman
:11:15. > :11:20.to be? Absolutely. People read my book and they are inspired to go
:11:20. > :11:24.into the City, because they realise it is not that bad. It is not the
:11:24. > :11:30.rough and tumble place that it is made out to be. However, you goat a
:11:30. > :11:36.stage when it gets to be too much. It is like the pressure to go out
:11:36. > :11:41.drinking every single night. The pressure, it is like the demands of
:11:41. > :11:47.the industry are kind of, it is sort of condones and even demands
:11:47. > :11:51.male traits after a certain period of time. So maybe that's
:11:51. > :11:55.contributing to the sort of LIBOR scandal that we are seeing. Do we
:11:55. > :12:00.know that all the people involved in the LIBOR scandal are men?
:12:00. > :12:09.don't. No-one's been named have they? They are likely to be, as
:12:09. > :12:14.traders are overwhelmingly male. is about 85%. There you go. Wasn't
:12:14. > :12:18.something that made it more macho for the British that Bob Diamond
:12:18. > :12:22.was an American. I think it is easier to attack him because he is
:12:22. > :12:27.an American. I it won't Barclays first, because Barclays, if they
:12:27. > :12:31.were acting independently, wouldn't be able to manipulate anything in
:12:31. > :12:36.the market. Sure. But Fred Goodwin was the one who took all the het
:12:36. > :12:40.when the crash happened. I always felt... Bob Diamond talked a lot
:12:40. > :12:44.about the culture of Barclays. I would subject Michael that in a
:12:44. > :12:48.bank like Barclays, which is both retail and investment, there isn't
:12:48. > :12:52.a single culture. The kind of culture you need for a retail bank
:12:52. > :12:56.to be successful and honest and upright is entirely different from
:12:56. > :13:00.the casino bank culture of the investment bankers. Absolutely. The
:13:00. > :13:06.bit that he ran before he became chief executive of Barclays was the
:13:06. > :13:11.casino element. By the way, I think this crisis is 30% about morality
:13:11. > :13:15.and 70% about competence. A lot of this is about how badly banks do
:13:15. > :13:19.their job. How badly they are able to control behaviours. How badly
:13:19. > :13:25.they are able to service their customers. In the other part of the
:13:26. > :13:30.room, what you've got going on is RBS and its subsidiaries unable to
:13:30. > :13:36.access their money. And in Ulster tonight they still can't do that.
:13:36. > :13:42.The Americans are less squeamish about sending people to jail. They
:13:42. > :13:46.even have the prep walk. Under Reagan there were squillions of
:13:46. > :13:49.them. We are more squeamish about that. If we are going to have
:13:49. > :13:55.American Trading Standards on the trading floor, should we also have
:13:55. > :14:02.American standards of regulation and criminal sanction? I think the
:14:02. > :14:06.SAC has a reputation for hiring smarter people, a job at the SAC is
:14:06. > :14:13.paid extremely well. It is prestigious. It is like working for
:14:13. > :14:17.the FBI. The FSA is not the same. You have to sort of, if you want
:14:17. > :14:26.people working there who can discover these kind of ethical or
:14:26. > :14:30.criminal breaches, you need to pay It was really shocking that when
:14:30. > :14:33.the FSA and its sister company many the US announced the fine, the
:14:34. > :14:38.regulators over here said the presumption was that they wouldn't
:14:38. > :14:42.be able to prosecute. Prima facie, there's clearly been conspiracy to
:14:42. > :14:45.commit fraud. How prima facie you can conclude there hasn't been a
:14:45. > :14:48.crime, there's nothing worth investigating or prosecuting.
:14:48. > :14:52.not forget, if it hadn't been for the American regulators, this
:14:52. > :14:56.wouldn't have come about in the first place. They started the
:14:56. > :15:01.investigation. When you said the authority are squeamish, I don't
:15:01. > :15:07.think that's right. You also said there was no money. Our resources
:15:07. > :15:12.are income petnt and have the wrong attitude -- incompetent. There's
:15:12. > :15:16.prima facie a crime and it must be pursued. I noticed that at within
:15:16. > :15:19.stage in private brief ition, Bob Diamond implyed that Paul Tucker of
:15:19. > :15:24.the Bank of England has given the nod and wink to the fixing of the
:15:24. > :15:28.interest rates when he appeared at the Select Committee there was very
:15:28. > :15:31.little hint of that. One might think that if a person had
:15:31. > :15:36.knowledge of something in 2008 and if that thing subsequently turned
:15:36. > :15:41.out to be a crime, it wouldn't turn out to be a good thing to admit
:15:41. > :15:48.knowledge of it. To you miss this City? No, to be honest, I've been
:15:48. > :15:52.here eight years and it's lost a lot of its swagger. I mean, people
:15:53. > :15:57.have left in droves because of, you know... You are glad you are not
:15:57. > :16:03.there any more? Yes, because of the obvious reasons. The money's gone,
:16:04. > :16:09.it's the regulation that's getting to be excessive and, you know, it's
:16:09. > :16:14.not the powerhouse it used to be. We'll have to leave it there.
:16:14. > :16:20.Thanks for being with us. It may be too late for Bianca Jagger to crack
:16:20. > :16:25.a smile but not too late for you to crack open a bottle of the Bollie
:16:25. > :16:31.blue stuff. We have spotted a superstar, dazzling with the size
:16:31. > :16:38.of the brain like a planet. Brian Cox will be testing the theory of
:16:38. > :16:46.the size of the studio. You can sign up and join the Guinea pigs on
:16:46. > :16:52.the Twitter, fleecebook and... Hang on, dude I owe you big time. Come
:16:52. > :17:00.on, big boy, I'll open a bottle of the Blue Nun. Oh, sorry, just
:17:00. > :17:03.signing a few e-mails to my tax avoidance advisers. There's been a
:17:03. > :17:09.shocking revelation from our very own Deputy Prime Minister. In a
:17:09. > :17:14.peach this week, I saw it and heard with my own ears, Nick Clegg said
:17:14. > :17:18.he feels lobotomized by the weight of Government. It's not a secret if
:17:18. > :17:28.you tell everybody, but I think we knew that already. We sent Jane
:17:28. > :17:38.
:17:38. > :17:42.Moore to unearth more hidden gems Breaking into a bank is tough
:17:42. > :17:52.enough. Getting away with the cash is harder still.
:17:52. > :17:56.Unless of course you work in one. Normally, politicians lake to hide
:17:56. > :18:01.uncomfortable secrets behind closed doors in the deepest, darkest
:18:01. > :18:06.recesses they can find. But these days, there's no hiding
:18:06. > :18:10.place. What with the Leveson Inquiry on a
:18:10. > :18:18.week off, Ed Miliband clearly feels there's something missing in our
:18:18. > :18:23.lives, so he's demanded a full- blown judge-led inquiry into the
:18:23. > :18:28.Barclays scandal. Number eight should do it, I reckon. The British
:18:28. > :18:32.people will not tolerate anything less than a full, open and
:18:32. > :18:37.independent inquiry. Did he ask you about it? No, me neither. Clearly
:18:37. > :18:41.Health and Safety trying to repeat his success in leading the agenda
:18:41. > :18:46.over phone-hacking, but Cameron said he would not be bounced into
:18:46. > :18:54.making a decision. Then 48-hours later, promptly announced there
:18:54. > :19:01.would be an inquiry. But, led by an His is a party bankrolled by the
:19:01. > :19:06.banks. If he fails to order a judge-led inquiry, people will come
:19:06. > :19:11.to one conclusion. He simply can't act in the national interest.
:19:11. > :19:16.party opposite want to talk about absolutely everything apart from
:19:16. > :19:20.their record of 13 years in Government. I have to say, Mr
:19:20. > :19:24.Speaker, we may have found the particle, Labour haven't found a
:19:24. > :19:28.seasons of shame. One man who found a sense of shame,
:19:28. > :19:34.well on behalf of his pane myway, was Barclays boss Bob Diamond.
:19:34. > :19:38.After days of clinging on to his job, he resigned. It looked as
:19:38. > :19:45.though the buck might finally be stopping with him. Then rumours
:19:45. > :19:50.swept Westminster that the Bank of England had asked Barclays to lower
:19:50. > :19:57.Libor. Suddenly, diamonds testimony to MPs
:19:57. > :20:02.became a jewel in the news schedule. Either you were complicit in what
:20:02. > :20:08.was going on or you were grossly negligent or you were grossly
:20:08. > :20:13.incompetent. That's the only conclusion? Sorry, I agree and I've
:20:13. > :20:17.agreed from the finning that the -- beginning that the information was
:20:17. > :20:23.wrong. It's hard to give another answer than that. It turns out to
:20:23. > :20:33.lack much sparkle. Despit the best efforts of John Mann to rough him
:20:33. > :20:38.
:20:38. > :20:41.up, Bob Diamond turned out to be a For years David Cameron tried to
:20:41. > :20:47.lock away his party's political in- fighting over Europe behind thick
:20:47. > :20:53.steel doors. But this week, the vault burst wide-open when nearly
:20:53. > :20:58.100 Conservative MPs demanded a referendum about the rather
:20:58. > :21:02.polarising issue. Life outside the EU holds no
:21:02. > :21:07.terrors. As I believe globalisation will increasingly force countries
:21:07. > :21:10.to cooperate more closely on the basis of functional commonality
:21:10. > :21:13.rather than geographical proximity. Dave wouldn't be the first Prime
:21:13. > :21:18.Minister to be held hostage by his party over Europe. At first, he
:21:18. > :21:26.seemed to shake himself free of it. And then promptly handcuffed
:21:26. > :21:30.himself right back up again. Shhhh...
:21:30. > :21:33.Just as I believe it would be wrong to have an immediate in-out
:21:33. > :21:38.referendum, so it would also be wrong to rule out any type of
:21:38. > :21:45.referendum for the future. Of late, political pundits have
:21:45. > :21:49.suggested that Dave is digging deep to find his inner Tory, but opt day
:21:49. > :21:54.his Defence Secretary announces 0,000 job cuts in the Army, sounds
:21:54. > :21:58.lake that inner Tory is being stashed away again.
:21:58. > :22:02.These withdrawals and emergencyers unwelcome as I know they will be in
:22:02. > :22:07.the units affected are fair and balanced and have been carefully
:22:07. > :22:17.structured to minimise the impact of the regular manpower reduction
:22:17. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:30.and maximise the military Normally politicians like to keep
:22:30. > :22:34.what they think will be locked awe way in a safety deposit box so it's
:22:34. > :22:39.refreshing the end the week with a couple of them prepared to tell it
:22:39. > :22:44.like it is. The first - Ken Clarke.
:22:44. > :22:50.We'd been engaged in a war with drugs 30 years, we've not achieved
:22:50. > :22:54.very much progress. The second, Nick Clegg. He talked about being
:22:54. > :23:04.lobotomize by the weight of Government. We know what you mean,
:23:04. > :23:04.
:23:04. > :23:14.mate, and that's just observing it. That's cracked it. I'm in!
:23:14. > :23:14.
:23:14. > :23:24.This is what bankers get up to behind closed doors, is it?!
:23:24. > :23:27.
:23:27. > :23:33.I hope that's a 1994 chateau red. Only ram for one, I'm afraid. Bye!
:23:33. > :23:37.I found the 93 a better year myself. What did you make of Bob Diamond's
:23:37. > :23:41.appearance at the committee? demonstrated that committees are
:23:41. > :23:44.come plaitly useless I think. It always happens, they've learned
:23:44. > :23:49.their two or three questions, they don't work as a team, they don't
:23:49. > :23:52.pick up on each other's questions and follow through or pin the man
:23:52. > :23:56.down. Every time someone appears at the Select Committee, there's a
:23:56. > :23:59.kind of anticipation. I always say, don't hold your breath, no will
:23:59. > :24:02.happen, the Select Committee will not manage to pin this person down
:24:02. > :24:05.at all. Now it's seriously proposed that banking should be looked into
:24:05. > :24:10.by a Parliamently committee. I think it's a joke.
:24:10. > :24:14.The one thing they did come out is that Bob Diamond did not have a
:24:14. > :24:18.convincing reason for not knowing about the rate rigging? Yes, but
:24:18. > :24:22.can I also pick up on what Michael said. I agree with this point about
:24:22. > :24:26.how the Conservatives are trying to say that a Parliamentary Committee
:24:26. > :24:30.can do such a big job they seem to be proposing and I think some
:24:30. > :24:35.Select Committees are pretty good but I thought that yesterday did
:24:35. > :24:39.show that a committee is not going to do the job. It's going to be a
:24:39. > :24:42.committee of Parliamentarians which will become... Do you want another
:24:42. > :24:50.Leveson? I've been saying this since the crisis. You have had
:24:50. > :24:54.Chilcot for Iraq, Leveson for the press. Chilcot's not reported?
:24:54. > :24:57.the financial has had huge impacts and we have not had the reckoning
:24:57. > :25:02.that the public want. Do judges know any more about banking than
:25:02. > :25:12.they do about the media? Took Leveson sucks months to work out
:25:12. > :25:17.that reporters don't write their own headlines. I think Leveson has
:25:17. > :25:20.shone a light on parts of the press in a relationship with politics
:25:21. > :25:24.that's been a gad thing for the public. The banking thing is just
:25:24. > :25:29.so big and it's had such an impact and we still don't really know what
:25:29. > :25:35.happened and what caused it. I agree with Michael. I think the
:25:36. > :25:40.idea that Andrew Tyrie may be a good bloke and get Parliamentarians
:25:40. > :25:44.together but it's so easy to say a judge won't do any better but an
:25:44. > :25:48.inquiry has to go to the heart of what's happening. Parliamentary
:25:48. > :25:55.Committees never work as a team. They don't have the time to do this
:25:55. > :25:59.job. And now, the issue is hugely part zafpb. Yes. We saw the
:25:59. > :26:03.exchanges in the House of Commons today -- partisan. Come plaitly
:26:03. > :26:08.partisan. George Osborne, if you look at the House of Commons today
:26:08. > :26:12.and saw the interview he gave to the Spectator, he looks as though
:26:12. > :26:15.his main priority is to get Ed Balls, a political strategy.
:26:16. > :26:19.Totally. That would be a reasonable objective, but what seemed to be in
:26:19. > :26:25.the House of Commons today was that the Chancellor did not seem to be
:26:25. > :26:29.able to produce any evidence that implicated Balls. How z is it to
:26:29. > :26:33.led Ed Balls get on your nerves, Alastair? I was saying to makele,
:26:33. > :26:38.he's brilliant at the nodding at the frontbench and winding them up,
:26:38. > :26:41.but I thought Ed Balls had... he get on your nerves? From time to
:26:41. > :26:44.time, but he's an effective Shadow Chancellor and Osborne, he had
:26:44. > :26:49.literally no evidence whatsoever and he stands up in the House of
:26:49. > :26:53.Commons and, you said it's a political strategy, Michael earlier
:26:53. > :26:56.mentioned the quantitive easing, there is no seasons of the economic
:26:56. > :27:01.strategy the country needs. Osborne I think has been totally exposed as
:27:01. > :27:05.a not very good tactician and he parades has the great strategist.
:27:05. > :27:12.On the inquiry on the fixing of LIBOR and all the things that Suhr
:27:12. > :27:22.ronded it. Yes. There aren't Tory skeletons in the cupboard, this is
:27:22. > :27:23.
:27:23. > :27:27.all for the Labour, not the Tories. -- surrounded it. There's been
:27:27. > :27:33.criminal activity... That's entirely different. That was the
:27:33. > :27:37.rate-fixing of LIBOR in 005-2006, traders trying the make money.
:27:38. > :27:41.he's trying to link the issues. no, no, he was talking about, was
:27:41. > :27:46.there a policy in 2008 in the autumn when the wholesale markets
:27:46. > :27:51.were drying up. Was there an spwst in the market in the interest
:27:51. > :27:58.rates? To artificially depress the LIBOR rate. There's not a shred of
:27:58. > :28:03.evidence for that. A tonne of evidence. Where is it Start with
:28:03. > :28:07.Tucker. Jay what does it show in relation to Ed Balls or anybody
:28:07. > :28:10.else? They have an interest in the LIBOR interest rate, why wouldn't
:28:10. > :28:16.they at a tame of global economic crisis. They are saying to Barclays,
:28:16. > :28:21.we have an interest in you posting a lower interest rate than market
:28:21. > :28:28.circumstances would dictate. Read the memo. I've read it. You say
:28:28. > :28:37.That's what it says. Osborne's trying to put Ed Balls in the frame
:28:37. > :28:43.and Gordon Brown. That is what he is doing, trying to make that
:28:44. > :28:48.extrapolate. When Mr Tucker Dell - tells Bob Diamond that... It would
:28:48. > :28:51.be very interesting to know. People who've been asked and responded
:28:52. > :28:54.about it, this is my point about Osborne, I can't imagine and when
:28:54. > :28:57.Michael's in Government or when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, to
:28:57. > :29:02.have a Chief Executive stand up in the House of Commons with not a
:29:02. > :29:06.shred of evidence... My point is nothing to do with Mr Osborne.
:29:06. > :29:10.is. That's what he's gone to. is a policy being followed by the
:29:10. > :29:13.Government in 2008 to do something about LIBOR. Or by the Bank of
:29:13. > :29:16.England possibly. The Bank of England saying it was under
:29:17. > :29:19.pressure from the Government and that's what the investigation
:29:19. > :29:23.should concentrating on doing. you saying the MPs that you have
:29:23. > :29:30.seen at each other are the best people to do that and the judges
:29:30. > :29:34.will get... That won't be for me to This latest round of defence cuts.
:29:34. > :29:37.How serious are they? Serious. Personally I find it hard to
:29:37. > :29:42.understand, because what was demonstrated by Iraq and
:29:42. > :29:46.Afghanistan is we don't have enough troops on the ground to run two
:29:46. > :29:50.campaigns simultaneously. We lost both. We failed to hold Basra and
:29:50. > :29:53.we failed to hold Helmand. So you might think, well the response to
:29:53. > :29:58.that ought to be to have more boots on the ground and to see whether
:29:58. > :30:02.you could make the savings from equipment that we never use. For
:30:02. > :30:08.example nuclear weapons. Never use them, never will use them, a big
:30:08. > :30:13.waste of money. Aircraft carriers. If we are doing without them for
:30:13. > :30:18.ten years, why not in perpetuity. I would have thought the focus in the
:30:18. > :30:25.defence review would be to get rid of expensive people, but it has
:30:25. > :30:30.done the opposite. Can you explain, it came out in Question Time, the
:30:30. > :30:38.Israelis, who've a procurement budget the same size as Britain's
:30:38. > :30:45.we have 2,500 people doing defence procurement and the Israelis have
:30:45. > :30:50.450. I didn't know that figure. I didn't know the Israeli figure.
:30:50. > :30:54.you ran the British department! knew the British figure. I was
:30:54. > :30:58.recently reading the memoirs of Bomber Harris, who ran the air
:30:58. > :31:03.campaign during the Second World War. He said there was a particular
:31:03. > :31:13.civil servant in the Air Ministry who was worth two division as day
:31:13. > :31:13.
:31:13. > :31:17.to the Air Ministry. If you have that many soiths, the way they
:31:17. > :31:21.entertain themselves is changing their decisions and making every
:31:21. > :31:26.project expensive. If there's a single proper policy for the
:31:26. > :31:31.Ministry of Defence it should be to eliminate so many civil servants.
:31:31. > :31:38.And the big question: has Nick Clegg been lobotomised? I don't
:31:38. > :31:43.think so. Lo not mization is a very serious -- lobotomisation is a very
:31:43. > :31:47.serious operation, carried out very rarely these days. He was talking
:31:47. > :31:54.that the demands of Government are such that you hardly ever have a
:31:54. > :31:59.minute to think. I see. I thought you meant he was feeling battered
:31:59. > :32:04.and beleaguered. I want to make my usual defence of Nick Clegg. They
:32:04. > :32:08.are solid on the Government policy of maintaining austerity, a and
:32:08. > :32:13.that's which stands between us and disaster today. Mr Clegg will be
:32:13. > :32:17.very pleased. So will Mrs Clegg. But the economy is not getting
:32:17. > :32:20.fixed. We know your view on that. It may even be right!
:32:20. > :32:23.Now, This Week isn't exactly rocket science. It's a pretty simple
:32:23. > :32:25.equation: Michael + Alistair + Blue Nun = on-screen chemistry! Yet
:32:25. > :32:31.Albert Einstein actually claimed politics was more difficult than
:32:31. > :32:35.physics. I suppose the existence of the Miliband brothers disproves the
:32:35. > :32:37.theory of relativity. John Prescott disproves the theory of evolution.
:32:37. > :32:47.Alastair Campbell's diaries disprove the theory of accurate
:32:47. > :32:50.
:32:50. > :32:53.recall. That is not true! Michael Portillo's quiff disproves
:32:53. > :32:55.the theory of gravity. But we decided it was time to test the
:32:55. > :33:05.hypothesis and put political science under this week's
:33:05. > :33:15.
:33:15. > :33:19.Eur ech ka! After 50 years of predict and seek, the Higgs boson
:33:19. > :33:24.particle has been found. The British photographer who began the
:33:24. > :33:27.search couldn't hide his joy. would like to add my
:33:27. > :33:35.congratulations to everybody involved in this tremendous
:33:35. > :33:40.achievement. For me it's really an incredible thing that has happened
:33:40. > :33:45.in my lifetime. The Prime Minister was quick to congratulate the team
:33:45. > :33:50.at CERN and dismiss the accusation that science isn't given the
:33:50. > :33:54.respect or money it deserves. should congratulate everyone
:33:54. > :33:59.involved. In Government's commitment to the science budget,
:33:59. > :34:03.while we've had to make difficult cuts, we preserved the science
:34:03. > :34:07.budget. With only a single Member of Parliament from a science
:34:07. > :34:14.background r our politicians failing to understand the world
:34:14. > :34:18.around them? Perhaps with geek chic, we need a scientist at Westminster.
:34:18. > :34:23.It is like saying we want to explore that ocean but we don't
:34:23. > :34:30.know where the land is. We have now found the land. We don't know
:34:30. > :34:34.what's on that land yet, but at least we know where it is.
:34:34. > :34:40.Professor Cox is with us now. Welcome to This Week. It's been a
:34:40. > :34:45.great week for scientists. Explain to us simpletons why we,
:34:45. > :34:50.particularly these two, who are very simple, I should put in a
:34:50. > :34:55.warning. It is late at night. Most ofous audience is drunk! Simply,
:34:55. > :34:59.the theory is that empty space is not empty. It is rammed full of
:34:59. > :35:04.things called Higgs particles. We get our mass, the particles that
:35:04. > :35:07.make up everything in the universe, your hand, this table, get their
:35:07. > :35:11.solidity by bouncing off the Higgs particles, which sounds like a
:35:11. > :35:16.bizarre thing to say, except we now know that is correct. Who could
:35:16. > :35:22.ever have thought that was the case? Well, Peter Higgs and a few
:35:22. > :35:26.others. I get that. But why would you ever think that? It was a
:35:26. > :35:29.mathematical prediction based on an aesthetic judgment about the
:35:29. > :35:38.equations that we had which described how the universe works.
:35:38. > :35:41.It is one of the best examples, the if not the best I know, the
:35:41. > :35:47.unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics in the sciences. It is
:35:47. > :35:54.not known why it should be a guide to reality, but in this case, not
:35:54. > :36:00.only have we found that the vacuum of space are filled with Higgs
:36:00. > :36:04.particles, but 08 countries have tested that hypothesis and found it
:36:04. > :36:07.to be true. David Cameron and others launched a congratulatory
:36:08. > :36:11.statement. Do you think he had any idea what he was congratulating the
:36:11. > :36:16.science community about? I don't know. There's been a lot of it in
:36:16. > :36:22.the press. It's a positive time, because as you thingsed in the
:36:22. > :36:26.introduction, Britain has not been great, certainly its political
:36:26. > :36:29.class has not been great at understanding science and
:36:29. > :36:34.supporting it. We are one of the lowest spending countries in terms
:36:35. > :36:42.of R&D and yet we are one of the most successful countries. We had
:36:42. > :36:47.the best Science Minister we ever had in David Sainsbury. And he
:36:47. > :36:50.doubled the contributions to the Labour Party too;; Is it a cause
:36:50. > :36:56.for worry that there is almost a total lack of scientific knowledge
:36:56. > :37:00.in the Commons? Only one MP has worked in science. There are many
:37:00. > :37:05.reasons why that bad. Policys should be based on evidence. What
:37:05. > :37:10.you are talking about that is the scientific method. The number is
:37:10. > :37:15.something like 44% of our GDP is based on knowledge-intensive
:37:15. > :37:20.services and industry, which rests on the University sector and on the
:37:20. > :37:23.science budget that. Train through the economy, the route to growth I
:37:23. > :37:28.would contend rests on the university sector and the research
:37:28. > :37:34.and science budgets. If people don't back that philosophically and
:37:34. > :37:38.politically, we are in trouble. of MPs have previously worked in
:37:38. > :37:44.banking and accountancy. None the science. That's pretty shocking, is
:37:44. > :37:53.it not? Does medicine count? Good point. We did produce a Prime
:37:53. > :37:58.Minister who was qved. Qualified? Yes, a chemist.
:37:58. > :38:02.Hadron collider required the co- operation of Governments around the
:38:02. > :38:07.world. Don't you think it is remarkable that there was the
:38:07. > :38:13.understanding across the plan thaet this needed to be done? CERN was
:38:13. > :38:17.set up in the 1950s as one of the projects that would pursue
:38:18. > :38:21.knowledge for peaceful means. It is not as expensive as people think.
:38:22. > :38:26.CERN's entire budget out of which it built the large Hadron collide
:38:26. > :38:30.ser less than the budget of a medium-sized European university.
:38:30. > :38:35.You are talking about one extra university in the world which does
:38:35. > :38:39.a unique thing, to explore the early universe. Who is going to win
:38:39. > :38:44.the Nobel prize? I would expect there'll be a British noble el
:38:44. > :38:50.prize. Kite well be Peter Higgs, but the people who designed the
:38:50. > :38:54.machine, a lots of them were led by a British physicist. Lynn Evans
:38:54. > :38:59.would have a good claim to it. you think the harsh truth is that
:38:59. > :39:07.if scientists are to have the same access to Downing Street as bankers,
:39:07. > :39:14.you have to donate more money to political parties? We spent more
:39:14. > :39:20.money bailing out the banks than we have spent on science since Jesus.
:39:20. > :39:28.Just a drip of that budget would transform our economy. Why don't
:39:28. > :39:32.you stand for Parliament? Not much happens there does it? Don't you
:39:32. > :39:37.have to be Prime Minister at least until you can get anything done.
:39:37. > :39:42.Lord Sainsbury did. And he is a Lord. The only scientific knowledge
:39:42. > :39:47.in Parliament is in the House of Lords. It is going to be an
:39:47. > :39:53.interesting feature of Lords reform that when we move to choosing it by
:39:53. > :39:57.party list system, on a regional basis, all that scientific
:39:57. > :40:01.knowledge will go. Absolutely. The House of Lords reform is a
:40:02. > :40:05.catastrophe. It is an catastrophe and the worst of it is the method
:40:05. > :40:10.that's been chosen for the election, the one that hands all the power to
:40:10. > :40:15.the political parties and removes all power from the voters. I think
:40:15. > :40:20.the plan has been lobotomised a bit. Where you do stand on the plan?
:40:20. > :40:24.a great fan. I've never been a great fan of the Lords full stop.
:40:24. > :40:29.If you had proper devolution around Britain, and Europe treated
:40:29. > :40:33.properly with a proper partnership with Britain, could have a strong
:40:33. > :40:37.House of Commons and a completely different system. But under the
:40:37. > :40:41.present system for the House of Commons it is open for people with
:40:41. > :40:45.scientific knowledge to offer himself for Parliament. It is all
:40:45. > :40:49.very well for blaming Parliament and the Conservative Party, but it
:40:49. > :40:53.is open to scientists to put themselves forward. You might speak
:40:54. > :40:58.on evidence and it would make it difficult to get elected. That's a
:40:59. > :41:03.good point is. British science on a bit of a roll at the moment? Are we
:41:03. > :41:08.doing well? Are we, in that famous Foreign Office phrase, punching
:41:08. > :41:13.above our weight? Every statistic tells the us that we are the most
:41:13. > :41:20.efficient in the world by a long way, although we spend less than
:41:20. > :41:28.any other nation in GDP. We won two Nobel prizes in physics two years
:41:28. > :41:33.ago for the discovery of graphine. The Government has put �50 million
:41:33. > :41:37.into the research. David Cameron is not entirely speaking fictitiously
:41:37. > :41:42.when he says he is backing science. There is some evidence that it is
:41:42. > :41:46.beginning to sink in. Does this mean our universities, which face
:41:46. > :41:49.great competition from the much better funded American universities,
:41:49. > :41:54.and the rise of Chinese universities in the Far East, are
:41:54. > :41:59.they still holding their own? you look at the Shanghai ratings we
:41:59. > :42:05.do very well indeed. The I think it is because you can't buy a
:42:05. > :42:08.university system. It rests on hundreds of years actually of
:42:08. > :42:13.strong foundations. We've got that. It is one of the great assets of
:42:13. > :42:17.this country. We need to protect it. That's fine. We've had a lot of
:42:18. > :42:22.praise for science, rightly. I have a bone to pick with you. When I was
:42:22. > :42:32.a kid, science held out the prospect for me of a jet pack and I
:42:32. > :42:33.
:42:33. > :42:39.still haven't got one. You can get those? You can? We even have
:42:39. > :42:44.teledeportation. Deportation. me up, Scotty! So we could have a
:42:44. > :42:51.jet pack now? We've got jet packs. They are not not very practical.
:42:51. > :42:59.don't care about that. And we are, the one when I saw Star Trek, the
:42:59. > :43:03.one thing I thought we would never have is telePorthation. Over a
:43:03. > :43:06.subatomic level, it's been done. Brian, thank you very much for
:43:06. > :43:09.being with us. That's your lot for tonight, folks.
:43:09. > :43:12.But not for us, because it's M6 Toll Road Pre-Olympic Panic Night
:43:12. > :43:15.at Annabel's. No doubt the police will arrive en masse to cordon the
:43:15. > :43:18.whole place off after Michael is reported making some highly
:43:18. > :43:20.suspicious moves on the dancefloor. But we leave you tonight with