:00:10. > :00:14.From London, the greatest city in the world, the This Week Late Show,
:00:14. > :00:17.with Andrew Neil. On tonight's show, Michael Portillo
:00:17. > :00:20.and Jacqui Smith. Lib Dem leading lady Shirley Williams, political
:00:20. > :00:30.heavyweight Andrew Rawnsley, opinion maker Janet Daley, and star
:00:30. > :00:32.
:00:32. > :00:42.of screen and stage, actor Simon And now, Paisley's former U12
:00:42. > :01:11.
:01:11. > :01:15.synchronised swimming champion, Evenin' all. Welcome back to This
:01:15. > :01:17.Week and a new political year. So let's kick things off with a
:01:17. > :01:20.whimper, in Brighton, where the nation's remaining Liberal
:01:20. > :01:23.Democrats huddled together for warmth under the pier this week,
:01:23. > :01:28.trying in vain to see the sunny side of coalition government, and
:01:29. > :01:34.the funny side of Danny Alexander. Bring back Sarah Teather, I say.
:01:34. > :01:37.All is forgiven! Well, nearly all. Anyway, the increasingly "boutique"
:01:37. > :01:40.Lib Dem festival of free love, free muesli and sky-high tuition fees
:01:40. > :01:47.stumbled to its climax yesterday, with Nick Clegg's conference call-
:01:47. > :01:50.to-arms. The self-styled Deputy PM told delegates it was not all quiet
:01:50. > :01:57.on the Lib Dem Front and urged his poll-shocked foot-soldiers to throw
:01:57. > :02:00.themselves over the top once more. A tall order, he admitted, given
:02:00. > :02:03.they're stuck in the coalition trenches, covered in double-dip mud,
:02:03. > :02:10.thanks to the quartermaster at Allied Command, General Boy George
:02:10. > :02:13.Osborne. But Corporal Clegg insisted retreat was not an option,
:02:13. > :02:16.inspired them with memories of generations of Liberals marching
:02:16. > :02:26.towards the sound of gunfire, and urged them to return to their
:02:26. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:30.constituencies to prepare for more abuse and vitriol. Yes, it's the
:02:30. > :02:34.charge of the Lib Dem brigade, almost certainly to be followed by
:02:34. > :02:40.the tomb of the unknown Lib Dem leader, if Vince Cable has anything
:02:40. > :02:44.to do with it. Speaking of mere footnotes in political history, I'm
:02:44. > :02:47.joined on the sofa tonight by two of the more unmemorable answers to
:02:47. > :02:54.obscure pub quiz questions, the fifth Beatle and second man on the
:02:54. > :03:04.moon of late night topical chat. I speak, of course, of #jacqu-i-am,
:03:04. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:16.Jacqui Smith, and #sadmanonatrain, Michael "choo choo" Portillo.
:03:16. > :03:22.Your moment of the week? Events in Spain, demonstrations, emergency
:03:22. > :03:25.budget, talk of Catalonia breaking away. The public spending cuts and
:03:26. > :03:29.so on have no prospect of success whatsoever and will simply drive
:03:29. > :03:35.the Spanish economy into a downward spiral because they cannot devalue
:03:35. > :03:40.their currency because they are in the euro. And the brilliant irony
:03:40. > :03:44.of all of this is that the vain politicians who created this euro
:03:44. > :03:51.thing are not drawing Europe together, but driving it apart.
:03:51. > :03:55.Indeed, may be driving Spain apart with Catalonia. Exactly. Greeks
:03:55. > :04:04.hate Germans and Catalans hate custodians. This is all going
:04:04. > :04:09.swimmingly. Jackie. In February 2008 I signed the extradition order
:04:09. > :04:15.for Abu Hamza to go to the US, which was already several years
:04:15. > :04:21.into the saga of Abu Hamza. This week, it seems we, touch wood, have
:04:21. > :04:25.had the final judgment. He has appealed again. He has, and there
:04:25. > :04:29.is a stay from the High Court. It was interesting that Lord Chief
:04:29. > :04:34.Justice Judge today for us -- expressed his frustration with the
:04:35. > :04:39.fact that it had taken as long as it has taken. And did the Queen
:04:39. > :04:43.ever talk to you about Abu Hamza? am a privy councillor and the first
:04:43. > :04:49.rule of Privy Councillors, don't talk about Privy Council. She has
:04:49. > :04:53.not lost her touch. Good to see a member of the establishment here.
:04:53. > :04:56.Now, you would have had to be living in a dark, empty, desolate
:04:56. > :04:59.place, not unlike Diane's bank account after that recent BBC Trust
:04:59. > :05:01.ruling, for gate-gate to have passed you by. The policeman who
:05:01. > :05:04.stopped Andrew "Thrasher" Mitchell cycling through the gates of
:05:04. > :05:08.Downing Street claims the Chief Whip called him an "F-word pleb",
:05:08. > :05:12.and only in class-bound Britain could you get into more trouble for
:05:12. > :05:16.using the P word than the F word. But was Thrasher's rant just the
:05:16. > :05:21.behaviour of a frustrated man who'd had a bad lunch at the Cinnamon
:05:21. > :05:25.Club en route to the Carlton Club? Or a peek at the real, darker,
:05:25. > :05:35.nastier side of the Tory party? This is the Sunday Telegraph's
:05:35. > :05:49.
:05:49. > :05:54.Janet Daley and her Take of the Someone has to tell the truth about
:05:54. > :05:58.the nasty party. As someone who has defended Conservatives arguments
:05:58. > :06:03.for so many years, I thought it was time to come clean. The Tories can
:06:03. > :06:07.be bloody difficult people to like. As I watched the Andrew Mitchell
:06:07. > :06:12.debacle unfold, something snapped. This was not an inexplicable,
:06:12. > :06:16.deranged, uncharacteristic lapse of behaviour. It was just an extreme
:06:16. > :06:26.example of something that those of us who travel in Tory circles have
:06:26. > :06:30.
:06:30. > :06:33.It is certainly true that most people who associate with
:06:33. > :06:37.Conservatives do not generally find themselves being sworn at, or
:06:37. > :06:42.referred to as clubs. Those of us who were not in that small inner
:06:42. > :06:46.circle of known from childhood into modes or reliable sycophants tend
:06:46. > :06:56.to find we are dismissed, snob, or become invisible when confronted
:06:56. > :07:07.
:07:07. > :07:11.with people who no longer consider Thank you very much. Oddly enough,
:07:11. > :07:16.it is the Tory modernisers, perhaps because they are more likely to be
:07:16. > :07:19.toffs than striving achievers, who are the worst. In fact, it is not
:07:19. > :07:24.the aspirational Thatcherite, state-educated Tories who look over
:07:24. > :07:27.your shoulder when you are talking to them. It is the snotty,
:07:27. > :07:34.condescending, one nation paternalists who are only
:07:34. > :07:39.interested as long as you are as faithful as a labrador. I sometimes
:07:39. > :07:42.wonder if the Tory leadership was so anxious to be likeable, realised
:07:42. > :07:46.that the answer does not lie in embracing unpopular
:07:46. > :07:54.environmentalism, unaffordable overseas aid policies, but in
:07:54. > :07:58.addressing the problem of their own deeply unpleasant social manners.
:07:58. > :08:03.Believe it or not, the great mass of voters, whom most of these
:08:03. > :08:07.politicians will never meet, pick up the vibrations of a hint of
:08:07. > :08:11.contempt for the anxieties and concerns of ordinary people on
:08:12. > :08:16.immigration, say, of disrespect for senior politicians of a previous
:08:16. > :08:20.generation, who are not sufficiently cool and modern. The
:08:20. > :08:25.real lesson of Blairite politics which the Cameron project seems not
:08:25. > :08:29.to have absorbed is the need for open friendliness and receptiveness
:08:29. > :08:33.to sincere argument, even from people who are not your usual sort.
:08:33. > :08:40.I wonder if Mr Cameron and his friends will ever feel really
:08:40. > :08:47.comfortable with that. Janet Daley joins us in our little
:08:47. > :08:52.dining room. Janet, how could it come to this? Good question. What
:08:52. > :08:56.has gone wrong with you and the Tories? This has been going on, not
:08:57. > :09:03.just with me, because it was the consensus in my newsroom and a lot
:09:03. > :09:08.of other journalists, judging by the Twitter campaign. This is the
:09:08. > :09:13.consensus of the Telegraph newsroom? Not officially. It is a
:09:13. > :09:18.lot of people who e-mailed me, texted and rang to say, I have had
:09:18. > :09:25.almost identical experiences to this. It is not about politics,
:09:25. > :09:33.oddly enough, because the political arguments, we are fine with. It is
:09:33. > :09:37.the man has, the arrogance, the supercilious attitude, of people...
:09:37. > :09:42.This is a generation of Tory leaders who seem to feel rather
:09:42. > :09:46.like people did in the 1950s, that you are born for office, and you
:09:46. > :09:52.have a kind of divine right to office, and anyone who does not
:09:52. > :09:59.give you uncritical, unconditional support must be beyond the pale.
:09:59. > :10:05.you feel better that you have got this off your chest? Oh, yes.
:10:05. > :10:12.Sleepless nights? Just exasperation. What about sleepless afternoons
:10:12. > :10:17.after that lunch? I did not eat it. That was for television purposes.
:10:17. > :10:26.You gave the game away. Michael, do you agree that the Tories are
:10:26. > :10:31."bloody difficult to like"? I said they can be. They can be. I think
:10:31. > :10:35.people like Oliver Letwin, Francis Maude, Michael Gove, have some of
:10:36. > :10:40.the loveliest manners of people I have ever met in politics. She does
:10:40. > :10:43.not agree about Francis Maude. slightly gives the game away by
:10:43. > :10:50.saying in the middle of the film that these are people who do not
:10:50. > :10:54.feel they have any use for her any more. This, I see. That was a joke.
:10:54. > :10:57.But it is fundamental. The Tory party made a decision five years
:10:58. > :11:02.ago in opposition that allying itself with the Daily Mail and the
:11:02. > :11:06.Daily Telegraph and the right wing columns was the passport to getting
:11:06. > :11:12.30% of the vote and no more. And what they had to do, if they were
:11:12. > :11:16.going to get 37%, or 42% to win an election, was brought on their
:11:16. > :11:24.appeal. So it is absolutely true. They made a strategic decision to
:11:24. > :11:29.leave people like you behind. is not actually empirically true.
:11:30. > :11:33.Jacqui is going to be neutral and measured. So does that mean if we
:11:33. > :11:36.go to the Guardian they are talking about how charming the Tory
:11:37. > :11:45.politicians are because of the way they treat them? I am not sure that
:11:45. > :11:49.is true. David Cameron, there was an election in 97, in 2001, and in
:11:49. > :11:53.2005. When David Cameron changed the strategy, which was no longer
:11:53. > :11:59.to be the mouthpiece of the Daily Mail - I know you are not from the
:11:59. > :12:04.Daily Mail - when he changed the strategy, he got 37%, the best
:12:04. > :12:13.result for 20 years. And the most discredited government in post-war
:12:13. > :12:23.history was what he was up against. 37%! Do you believe that Kadlec
:12:23. > :12:29.thrasher Mitchell used the word "pleb"? I do not know. OK, you do
:12:29. > :12:37.not know. Do you think his behaviour is characteristic of
:12:37. > :12:40.Cameron's ministers? No. You don't! Why did you go through all this?
:12:40. > :12:46.said in the original piece that gave rise to this, this was an
:12:46. > :12:49.extreme example. This was not deranged, out of the ordinary
:12:49. > :12:53.behaviour, but an extreme example of the kind of behaviour that
:12:53. > :12:57.certain Tory ministers are manifest. The importance of that behaviour is
:12:57. > :13:01.that it shows the contempt that Michael was just very articulately
:13:01. > :13:06.expressing, towards the mass of popular opinion in this country,
:13:06. > :13:10.which has now, unfortunately for David Cameron, manifested itself as
:13:10. > :13:15.far more to the right, to use a cliche, then David Cameron was
:13:15. > :13:19.bargaining for. So now that virtually the entire country is
:13:19. > :13:25.Euro-sceptic, does not believe we should be paying, for example, 0.7%
:13:25. > :13:29.of GDP in overseas aid, that it has become very jaundiced about mass
:13:29. > :13:34.immigration, all of these things, David Cameron finds himself left
:13:34. > :13:38.behind. And he has deliberately repudiated not just right-wing
:13:38. > :13:44.newspapers, but elder statesman of the party who were held in high
:13:44. > :13:54.regard. Now we're getting to the heart of it. This is because you do
:13:54. > :14:00.
:14:00. > :14:06.not like the policies of the That's exactly what I said.
:14:06. > :14:11.should make a minute point. Did you tap my arm there? I did.
:14:11. > :14:16.Knowing the four of us as I do. I expect anyone of us, if confronted
:14:16. > :14:20.by a stuck-up official who decided that this gate could not open or
:14:20. > :14:23.that gate could not open. Or we were going through the airport and
:14:23. > :14:31.faced by people who think it is their job to tell you the things
:14:31. > :14:38.that we can't do, I expect anyone of us if you had had a befy, that
:14:38. > :14:44.the response would be... Oh! Excuse me, you are not the former Home
:14:44. > :14:48.Secretary! Neither are you! Both of you, shut up. People may be
:14:48. > :14:52.frustrated, Michael, but I don't think you would have behaved in the
:14:52. > :14:55.way in which Andrew Mitchell behaved. You certainly wouldn't
:14:55. > :15:01.have done it as a Government minister at the gates of Downing
:15:01. > :15:04.Street, to a police officer! That's what's really terrible about this.
:15:04. > :15:07.It is an attitude to other people, to public service.
:15:07. > :15:11.Do you not believe that one of the things that has changed about
:15:11. > :15:16.Britain, for the worse is that we now have people all the time in
:15:16. > :15:22.uniform in official positions, telling citizens what they can't do.
:15:22. > :15:30.Oh, Michael... I think it is a sad state of affairs. We are not
:15:30. > :15:34.talking about... Excuse me, there is no point talking at the same
:15:34. > :15:38.time. One of the problems with this, we are not talking about a
:15:38. > :15:43.bureaucratic security guard, we are talking about a police officer who
:15:43. > :15:47.is part of the diplomatic protection group. Therefore, Janet
:15:47. > :15:50.said earlier, she did not know whether or not Andrew Mitchell used
:15:50. > :15:55.word "pleb", but according to the police officer's log, he was clear
:15:55. > :15:58.he had used the word "pleb". So there is a difficult situation
:15:58. > :16:05.here. You believe Andrew Mitchell or the police officer.
:16:05. > :16:10.I have to move it on. That is how TV works. Not like newspapers! How
:16:10. > :16:15.deep are David Cameron's problems with his party? Especially the
:16:15. > :16:18.backbenchers? The people you are to meet at the Tory conference?
:16:18. > :16:22.Serious. Lots of Tories talk to me. The
:16:22. > :16:28.danger is you could get killed in the scrum of discontented Tories
:16:28. > :16:31.talking to you. They are not all on the backbench es, I have to say.
:16:31. > :16:37.There are frontbenchers who are seriously unhappy with the way that
:16:37. > :16:42.David Cameron and his people, not just David Cameron himself, but his
:16:42. > :16:45.people, how they behave towards them there. Is a contempt, a
:16:45. > :16:51.supercilliousness, a resistance to criticism, I'm sorry to say.
:16:51. > :16:56.Criticism is unacceptable. People say that if they utter a word of
:16:56. > :16:59.criticism they are out. They are sent to Coventry. That is extremely
:16:59. > :17:05.unpleasant. Let me get Michael Portillo's
:17:05. > :17:12.reaction to that? I think there might be a lot of truth in that. I
:17:12. > :17:16.dare say that John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown felt an
:17:16. > :17:20.exaspiration with backbenchers as they have little understanding of
:17:20. > :17:24.what are the difficulties of holding power. So if you are going
:17:24. > :17:27.to say that the backbenchers are concerned about the behaviour of
:17:27. > :17:34.the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister may have concerns about
:17:34. > :17:39.the behaviour of the back benchers. It is fair to provide balance, I
:17:39. > :17:42.think it was lovely in Janet's log that New Labour ministers were
:17:42. > :17:45.charming and remembered him, but it was not always the case that New
:17:45. > :17:49.Labour ministers were not charming to each other.
:17:49. > :17:53.Before you go tonight. In the interests of public service
:17:53. > :17:56.broadcasting at its finest, are you prepared to name and shame?
:17:56. > :18:06.Absolutely not. Oh! A waste of time having you on,
:18:06. > :18:09.
:18:09. > :18:14.then, really. No names, no... would like to say, even though it
:18:14. > :18:18.has been disagreeing to have Janet here, she has been charming.
:18:18. > :18:23.If Michael would zip it. I would be able to say thank you very much for
:18:23. > :18:31.being on This Week. My pleasure. It may be late. It is
:18:31. > :18:36.late, dam you Crimewatch update, damn you! But that lickior will not
:18:36. > :18:41.pickle itself. Coming up, master of the spoken word, Simon Callow, who
:18:41. > :18:46.will be bowing and scraping before us all. Talking the language of
:18:46. > :18:51.deference. For those of you who fail to show us any respect,
:18:51. > :18:57.whatsoever, like our new Director- General, George, blow your own
:18:57. > :19:03.whistle, why don't you join him and abuse us via the Twitter, the
:19:03. > :19:10.fleece book and the internet. Now, it is tough at the top. I can
:19:10. > :19:16.tell you that. History, never mind. Any way, it is very tough, but also
:19:16. > :19:21.tough if you are Nick Clegg. Boom! Boom! One minute riding high. The
:19:21. > :19:25.world is your oyster. Two years later you are saying sorry for a
:19:25. > :19:30.policy you knew you could never deliver, but you thould would
:19:30. > :19:35.deliver you a barrel load of simple-minded student votes. Yes,
:19:35. > :19:41.it's been quite a week for the Deputy Prime Minister. Never one to
:19:42. > :19:51.miss a grovelling apology, we spent Robinson to Brighton for our round-
:19:52. > :20:08.
:20:08. > :20:14.He knew before he had been in Brighton three hours that they
:20:14. > :20:21.meant to murder him. I thought re- reading Graham Green's classic
:20:21. > :20:27.novel about Pinkie, a boy gangster in the Brighton underworld was as
:20:27. > :20:32.good as any for preparing for Nick Clegg and his party politics.
:20:32. > :20:39.Nick Clegg looks hunted by terrible opinion polls breathing down his
:20:39. > :20:45.neck. Double crossers in the Blue gang and rivals in his own. Hello,
:20:45. > :20:47.Vince. Even party members, norm aeth the most polite, voice their
:20:48. > :20:52.grievances. We were the party not to break
:20:52. > :20:57.promise. The first thing we did was to break a promise. People find it
:20:57. > :21:02.difficult to forgive. People are disstressed, angry. They have come
:21:02. > :21:06.here upset. They think you are too right-wing.
:21:06. > :21:10.On the mean streets of the political underworld it is normally
:21:10. > :21:14.considered a bad idea to ever admit to doing anything wrong. Apologies
:21:14. > :21:18.are for losers, but the Lib Dem thought he would not get a hearing
:21:18. > :21:22.from the voters for anything else he wanted to say until he fesed up
:21:22. > :21:26.to something big. # We made a promise before the
:21:26. > :21:29.election # That we would vote against any
:21:29. > :21:33.change of fees # Vote against any right of fees
:21:33. > :21:38.# It was a pledge made with the best of intentions
:21:38. > :21:40.# The best of intentions # But we shouldn't have made a
:21:40. > :21:43.promise # We were not absolutely sure we
:21:43. > :21:48.could deliver # Only time and many opinion polls
:21:48. > :21:53.will tell if it works that apology from the tuition fees pledge. At
:21:53. > :21:59.least the musical spoof have done him a favour by ensuring that many
:21:59. > :22:03.more have got tonne hear it. The song entered the charts at number
:22:03. > :22:07.143. It is something it proved popular here in Brighton.
:22:07. > :22:14.# I'm sorry # I'm so, so, sorry
:22:14. > :22:17.# It's very hard to say that I'm sorry. # In the treacherous razor
:22:17. > :22:20.slashing world of politics, the people you must have to fear are
:22:20. > :22:26.not the enemies, but your supposed friends.
:22:26. > :22:30.I make no apology... Naughty Vince! He had a policy to announce, a new
:22:30. > :22:33.business bank, but the main interest in his speech amongst the
:22:33. > :22:38.colleagues was how he would advertise himself as a replacement
:22:38. > :22:47.leader of the gang. Ka I also made sure that I have
:22:47. > :22:56.good communications with politicians across the spectrum.
:22:57. > :23:01.Sorry, I think there is an urgent message here. Please, Ed, not now,
:23:01. > :23:08.this is not the time. You may find this hard to believe,
:23:08. > :23:13.but that was one of the better platform jokes of the week. It
:23:13. > :23:21.ashroud Vince to present himself as a man who could do business can the
:23:21. > :23:24.Red Gang. Compare and contrast with Danny, the Cut, Alexander.
:23:25. > :23:29.Labour don't like us talking about their record in office, but the
:23:29. > :23:32.country can never be allowed to forget their mistakes in banking,
:23:32. > :23:42.regulation, in the public finances falsely promising the British
:23:42. > :23:46.
:23:46. > :23:50.people they could end boom and bust. The conference defeated, the
:23:50. > :23:55.leadership over secret trials, but in the end tp was not that big a
:23:55. > :23:59.trial for Nick Clegg. A lot of Lib Dem MPs remained convinced that
:23:59. > :24:04.Vince Cable is the cure for their difficulties, some of the party
:24:04. > :24:08.grandees are angry with Vince Cable for showing too much lug. Despite
:24:08. > :24:11.the traumas of coalition, many Lib Dems like the idea of being a party
:24:11. > :24:15.of power. If voters want a party of
:24:16. > :24:21.opposition, a stop the world I want to get off party, they have lots of
:24:21. > :24:31.options, but we are not one of them. There is a better more meaningful
:24:31. > :24:32.
:24:32. > :24:37.future waiting for us... APPLAUSE There is a better, more meaningful
:24:37. > :24:41.future waiting for us. Not as the third party, but as one of three
:24:41. > :24:45.parties of Government. So, Nick Clegg was not measured
:24:46. > :24:50.after all. To be honest, I never really thought he would be, but if
:24:50. > :25:00.the economy is tanking and the party's prospects still look bleak
:25:00. > :25:10.
:25:10. > :25:15.next year, well, then, he really had better watch his back.
:25:15. > :25:18.David Cameron, his party rested on many fronts, has a tricky
:25:18. > :25:22.conference ahead, so I guess that the happiest of the gang leaders
:25:22. > :25:32.should be Ed Miliband, he has the opinion poll lead. His challenge,
:25:32. > :25:43.
:25:43. > :25:49.to show that he knows what to do Bugs, y Rawnsey there.
:25:49. > :25:53.Shirley Williams. Welcome. Hello.
:25:53. > :25:58.I am bony. You will find me hard to bite.
:25:58. > :26:03.We would never bite you, Shirley girl. You live to fight another day,
:26:03. > :26:08.your leader? Yes, he did. Even the Guardian had to swallow some
:26:08. > :26:12.objections and to its great despair, that they were then mostly sticking
:26:12. > :26:16.with him. They are a love the Lib Dems, they are sticking together.
:26:16. > :26:24.They are not going to be used to murder.
:26:24. > :26:32.Is Vince Cable the responsible now? No, but he doesn't intend to be.
:26:32. > :26:37.Age will not stop him becoming the leader? No. Nor did it William glad
:26:37. > :26:44.zone, don't forget, who I think was Serbing at 84.
:26:44. > :26:51.Do you grow with Paddy Ashdown that cleling Clegg -- Nick Clegg is the
:26:51. > :26:59.greatest leader in 100 years? not really.
:26:59. > :27:03.So, is he not, though, is it not just a case of he lives to fight
:27:03. > :27:08.for another year? If things have not improved by the next conference,
:27:08. > :27:13.he could anybody real trouble? first of all, I think they will
:27:13. > :27:16.have done. I think that several things will have happened that will
:27:17. > :27:21.have helped with the Liberal Democrats. The main one is the
:27:21. > :27:24.reform of the banking system. We have not heard a lot about the
:27:24. > :27:28.Vicker's report, but I think that is importance.
:27:28. > :27:34.Is not the danger of that, even if things do come right. The economy
:27:34. > :27:39.has a bit of a spring in its step. That you have the banking reforms,
:27:39. > :27:44.all of the rest of it, you will not get the credit for it, the Tories
:27:44. > :27:49.will grab the credit or there is no credit. Either way you lose? I am
:27:49. > :27:55.not sure of that. I have been a very long time, as you may recall,
:27:55. > :28:01.in the Lib Dems since' 81. They have seen the polls fall to single
:28:01. > :28:05.figures, go right up to high double figures. Many of us are used to the
:28:05. > :28:09.sky-rocketing of modern politics. Vince Cable said he thought that
:28:09. > :28:15.the next election would be another hung Parliament. He may not be
:28:15. > :28:20.wrong? It could be? I think he may well be right. When you listen to
:28:20. > :28:25.what your party wanted at Brighton, a mansion tax, maybe some kind of
:28:25. > :28:29.wealth tax, tougher inheritance laws, a lot more Government
:28:29. > :28:36.intervention on a whole range of things, you would be better off in
:28:36. > :28:42.bed, if there is a hung Parliament again with you not be better off
:28:42. > :28:45.with Labour? No. If you assume that the politics will be a coalition,
:28:45. > :28:51.then the last place one wants to anybody is bed.
:28:51. > :28:55.But you are closer to Labour than the Tories? So is your party?
:28:55. > :29:00.party, the rank and file probably is, but hang on, Labour is
:29:00. > :29:06.currently, Jacqui Smith will jump on me. I will come to her now.
:29:06. > :29:10.She is good at jumping on me. She does it nicely, unlike some you
:29:10. > :29:14.have on your programme, but Labour is in a state it is not clear which
:29:14. > :29:18.of the two parties it is. The Conservative Party, the same thing.
:29:18. > :29:22.We heard Janet Daley. The Conservative Party is not unified.
:29:22. > :29:26.It has a strong right-wing, that is resisted by David Cameron. Not just
:29:26. > :29:29.by him. The case for the Labour Party they have to go through a
:29:29. > :29:33.difficult transition, which they have not addressed, that is how on
:29:33. > :29:43.earth to create an economy that Labour can live with and that the
:29:43. > :29:48.blasted markets will take seriously. Could you do a deal with Nick Clegg,
:29:48. > :29:52.if it is a hung parliament? If you took an election tomorrow, Labour
:29:52. > :29:56.would be the largest party, but you may have to do a deal with the Lib
:29:56. > :30:05.Dems. Could you do a deal with Nick Clegg, or would they have to change
:30:05. > :30:08.the leader to more Labour-friendly Vince Cable? Labour will be
:30:08. > :30:12.fighting the next general election to win a majority government and
:30:12. > :30:16.that will be the priority, and that is where people have focused their
:30:16. > :30:20.attention. The answer to your question is, if that is the
:30:20. > :30:24.situation we are confronted with by the election, then, in a similar
:30:24. > :30:28.way to last time, Labour, the Tories saw anybody will need to
:30:28. > :30:36.work out what they think is best for the country in terms of forming
:30:36. > :30:41.a government. It is not what is best for the country, but how you
:30:41. > :30:44.can stay in government. Nick Clegg felt he could not do a deal with Mr
:30:44. > :30:50.Brown last time. Do you think Labour will feel, in similar
:30:50. > :30:53.circumstances, it cannot do a deal with Nick Clegg and will need Vince
:30:53. > :30:57.Cable? Everything Nick Clegg has done this week makes it more
:30:57. > :31:02.difficult. He made a speech in which he argued that they were now
:31:02. > :31:06.the party of power. Therefore, the only way they can be the party of
:31:06. > :31:10.power is to be the party of coalition. He then very clearly set
:31:10. > :31:16.out, in terms of any personal attacks, to lay them much more
:31:16. > :31:22.strongly against Labour politicians than against Tory politicians.
:31:22. > :31:27.was to balance Vince Cable. If Nick Clegg is the leader and the one who
:31:28. > :31:33.needs to do the deal, he said he was between Ed Balls and Liam Fox.
:31:33. > :31:37.So you would not like to do a deal with Nick Clegg. What about Vince
:31:37. > :31:41.Cable? I think the way in which he has behaved and talk personally
:31:41. > :31:45.about Labour politicians make it difficult, and more significantly,
:31:45. > :31:51.the policies he pursued when he had the opportunity and Government.
:31:51. > :31:57.What about Vince Cable? He was a Labour councillor in Glasgow before.
:31:57. > :32:01.Shirley also used to be in our party. She is a bit too left-wing
:32:01. > :32:05.for you. I would be happier doing a deal with her than any of the
:32:05. > :32:11.others. We are singing from a bitter of the same hymn sheet at
:32:11. > :32:15.the moment. Glad to hear it. Michael, despite all of the stuff
:32:15. > :32:19.that Nick Clegg was going to face leadership problems at Brighton, he
:32:19. > :32:26.has actually emerged more solidly, in his leadership, and with more of
:32:26. > :32:30.a united party than Mr Cameron has. I thought Nick Clegg made a really
:32:30. > :32:37.good speech. I thought all the arguments he made were exactly the
:32:37. > :32:40.right ones. Did you watch on BBC Two? Have only seen extracts.
:32:40. > :32:50.you have not seen the full speech. I was just wondering if you were
:32:50. > :32:54.
:32:54. > :33:01.watching us. I had more important things to do. Carry on, Shirley.
:33:01. > :33:06.Would Michael said his music to my ears. It was amazing house allowed
:33:06. > :33:12.say anything. Nick Clegg is always polite, never cause anybody a pleb.
:33:12. > :33:20.He gets bashed all over the place and comes up smiling. I will have
:33:20. > :33:24.to bring in Michael. I watched it. Can I say something? What I was
:33:24. > :33:26.going to say was that nothing would delight Nick Clegg more than this
:33:26. > :33:30.discussion, where you are postulating that at the next
:33:30. > :33:35.election the only people who will continue to be in power who are in
:33:35. > :33:38.power at the moment are the Liberal Democrats. This is an extraordinary
:33:38. > :33:41.proposition because on the whole the view is that the Lib Dems are
:33:41. > :33:44.about to be massacred at the general election. But I agree it is
:33:44. > :33:49.possible that the dice will fall in such a way that the Lib Dems are
:33:49. > :33:52.the one continuity between this and the next Government. The other
:33:52. > :33:56.point is that there are two-and-a- half years to go until the general
:33:56. > :33:59.election and the thing that was missing from Nick Clegg's speech,
:34:00. > :34:06.which was impressive in terms of the arguments, the thing that is
:34:06. > :34:10.missing is any programme for the next two-and-a-half years. We have
:34:10. > :34:20.to leave it there. I wanted to ask if you thought Nick Clegg would
:34:20. > :34:25.still be leading the party into the next election. Yes or no? Yes.
:34:25. > :34:31.Yes. What a pleasure to have you here. Finally to get some quality
:34:31. > :34:35.on the programme! Pleased to see that. Now, what did the Romans ever
:34:35. > :34:38.do for us? There's just so much to admire from such a great
:34:38. > :34:41.civilisation. Former Home Secretary Jacqui Smith has a soft spot for
:34:41. > :34:46.public executions. Michael's ringside seat at the Olympic Greco-
:34:46. > :34:50.Roman wrestling didn't go unnoticed. And I've never turned down an
:34:50. > :34:53.invitation to a toga party in my life. But with Thrasher Mitchell
:34:53. > :34:56.raising the spectre of a society once again divided into plebs and
:34:57. > :35:06.patricians, we decided to put the language of deference in this
:35:07. > :35:10.
:35:10. > :35:14.week's Spotlight. I am clear about what I said and
:35:14. > :35:20.did not say. I want to make absolutely clear that I did not use
:35:20. > :35:24.the words that have been attributed to me. Whether he said it or not,
:35:24. > :35:34.Andrew Mitchell's rant brought an ancient Roman word into modern-day
:35:34. > :35:35.
:35:35. > :35:38.Westminster and on to the front The BBC's Frank Gardner also failed
:35:38. > :35:43.to show due deference this week, breaching royal protocol and
:35:43. > :35:49.spilling the beans on Her Majesty's concerns about terror suspect Abu
:35:49. > :35:54.Hamza. She spoke to the Home Secretary at the time and said,
:35:54. > :36:00.surely this man must have broken some laws. Why is he still at
:36:00. > :36:05.large? British Prime Minister, David Cameron. And David Letterman
:36:05. > :36:15.refused to doff his cap to our very own Prime Minister. He teased him
:36:15. > :36:20.when he struggled to remember his schoolboy Latin. The literal
:36:20. > :36:27.translation of Magna Carta? Again, you are testing me. It would be
:36:27. > :36:37.good if you knew this! Yes, it would be. Proving that an expensive
:36:37. > :36:37.
:36:37. > :36:41.education is not always money well I hear that the cameras are
:36:41. > :36:45.speaking to Eton tonight and asking for their money back, which will be
:36:45. > :36:54.a look after all these years. -- the Camerons. We are joined by
:36:54. > :36:58.Simon Callow. Nice to see you. to be here. Has difference to power
:36:58. > :37:02.and social status come to an end? It has declined rapidly in my
:37:02. > :37:06.lifetime. I remember -- remember when it was possible for someone,
:37:06. > :37:11.on a bus for example, to just look at someone and it would quell them.
:37:11. > :37:15.There was a language of authority which everybody possessed. That has
:37:15. > :37:20.absolutely gone completely. And now they would come and whacked you.
:37:21. > :37:24.Exactly. Certainly in the world and which I move, theatre and so on,
:37:24. > :37:29.there has always been a very diminished sense of status in that
:37:29. > :37:36.way of deference. For example, titles and so on are always dropped
:37:36. > :37:41.in the theatre. They are dropped on this show, too. We never use them.
:37:41. > :37:46.You are lucky if you get spoken to if you are Michael Portillo!
:37:46. > :37:51.Speaking deferentially to people in power, is that also in decline?
:37:51. > :37:55.do not meet many people in power, to be candid. You are one of the
:37:55. > :38:01.most powerful people I have ever met. You are always deferential to
:38:01. > :38:04.me. When I was a kid, you were always polite to a policeman.
:38:04. > :38:11.but police were always polite to you and that is not always the case
:38:11. > :38:16.now. There is a general feeling, mentioned earlier, that there are
:38:16. > :38:19.many more people who seem to have power over us, the right to tell
:38:19. > :38:23.you what to do. There is a general feeling now that they have to be
:38:23. > :38:26.protected, like the people at Customs, who are often
:38:26. > :38:30.extraordinarily bossy and aggressive. They are protected by
:38:30. > :38:38.signs saying, you must not be aggressive to these people. You see
:38:38. > :38:42.it everywhere. You follow the use of words quite carefully. Plebeian
:38:42. > :38:46.has ancient roots going back to Roman times. It does not mean
:38:46. > :38:55.working class, as I am sure we have established. They were landowning
:38:55. > :39:03.people. They could be more powerful than the Senate when plebiscites
:39:03. > :39:08.came in. I was going to say, has the word been used in modern
:39:08. > :39:14.discourse, modern politics? I don't know about politics, but in the
:39:14. > :39:21.playground it was in use in my childhood, plebs. But now
:39:21. > :39:24.apparently it means much more, don't be such a fool. Someone said
:39:24. > :39:28.that a player be is somebody who had a cucumber replaced for his
:39:28. > :39:33.brain. -- a pleb. It is not to do with class, it just means stupid.
:39:33. > :39:41.Presumably that was what he was saying, Mitchell. It is not a nice
:39:41. > :39:46.word at the best of times, but did and did become particularly toxic
:39:46. > :39:51.with Thrasher Mitchell because of the Cameron Government existing
:39:51. > :39:56.image problem? So toxic that one could imagine that somebody had
:39:56. > :39:59.invented it. It is said it is a word that Andrew Mitchell users and
:39:59. > :40:02.I daresay that is true but I have struggled to see why he would have
:40:02. > :40:07.used it in that context. Back to the point about deference, there is
:40:07. > :40:12.still plenty of difference. Massive difference to the Royal Family,
:40:12. > :40:15.enormous difference to celebrities. The number of times I get barged
:40:15. > :40:19.aside because policemen are shuffling through David Beckham, or
:40:19. > :40:23.Victoria Beckham. There is masses of that. I think on the whole
:40:23. > :40:27.people are still quite polite to each other. What I think we lack in
:40:27. > :40:30.English, and I would like to be invented, is the polite form of
:40:30. > :40:38.address that you have in most European languages. We do not have
:40:38. > :40:42.this. Lots of people come and talk to me, and I have more and more
:40:42. > :40:48.taken to calling people "Sir" how do you deal with somebody who comes
:40:48. > :40:56.up to and says, it is nice of you to say that? But that is a double-
:40:56. > :41:02.edged sword. In America, it is aggressive. The Americans say ma'am,
:41:02. > :41:06.rather nicely, which we would not do. It is surprising what can get
:41:06. > :41:11.you into trouble. Not that long ago, using the F-word would have got him
:41:11. > :41:14.into trouble but now it is the other word. But that is because it
:41:14. > :41:21.tells you something more, plays into something people already think
:41:21. > :41:29.about this Government, the whole idea that when he gets angry David
:41:29. > :41:35.Cameron turns into Flashman at the dispatch box. Flashman went to
:41:35. > :41:40.rugby, which was Andrew Mitchell's school. You are doing a show on
:41:40. > :41:45.Dickens at the moment. Abusive language, words that are not
:41:45. > :41:50.acceptable, they change over time, don't they? They certainly do.
:41:50. > :41:57.Dickens is not strong on invective. But Shakespeare is wonderful on
:41:57. > :42:05.invective. You cannot beat what one of the witches so as to the mother.
:42:05. > :42:08.-- says to another which. Part of the difference was shown by the BBC
:42:08. > :42:13.this week when they apologised for one of their correspondence
:42:13. > :42:19.revealing what the Queen had said to him. Was the BBC right to do
:42:19. > :42:27.that? I think they were. On a journalistic basis, I was surprised
:42:27. > :42:30.Frank Gardner reveal his source. -- revealed his source. But also
:42:30. > :42:35.because if we are going to have a monarchy and have a relationship
:42:35. > :42:40.with the Queen, you really do need to keep those things confidential.
:42:40. > :42:46.You think the BBC was right to apologise? Absolutely. What are you
:42:46. > :42:52.doing at the moment? The mystery of Charles Dickens, a one-man play
:42:52. > :42:59.examining his life, his brain, his heart, his soul, his work. You have
:42:59. > :43:03.read the new biography? I wrote a new biography! Great to have you.
:43:04. > :43:07.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because we're off
:43:07. > :43:11.to Annabel's, where it's Swear At A Pleb night. But no such good, clean
:43:11. > :43:14.sport for us. We're off to drown our sorrows and fill the Sarah
:43:14. > :43:17.Teather-shaped hole in our hearts. Yes, This Week's favourite pocket-
:43:17. > :43:20.rocket joke machine was cruelly dropped in the recent ministerial
:43:20. > :43:29.reshuffle, and we fear the Lib Dem conference will never be the same
:43:29. > :43:39.again. So let's just remember the good times and the punchlines.
:43:39. > :43:40.
:43:40. > :43:44.Nighty-night. Don't let the sound I thought I would not keep you for
:43:44. > :43:49.too long because I want to get back to my hotel room to watch Strictly.