:00:16. > :00:17.As the Great British Bake Off rises to a climax, This Week licks its
:00:17. > :00:21.fingers and scrapes the political bowl.
:00:21. > :00:23.The Prime Minister brings the conference season to an end and
:00:23. > :00:26.celebrates his birthday with a chocolate caterpillar. Our Mary,
:00:26. > :00:35.commentator and journalist Mary Ann Sieghart, judges the Cameron recipe
:00:35. > :00:38.for success. David Cameron gave a speech to rival Ed Miliband, but
:00:38. > :00:42.with so many mixed messages from the Conservative Party, what are
:00:42. > :00:46.voters to make of it? Is welfare taking too big a slice
:00:46. > :00:54.of the action? With an extra �10 billion of cuts added to the mix,
:00:54. > :00:57.comedian Ava Vidal thinks the plans are half-baked. The idea that
:00:57. > :01:01.George Osborne and David Cameron understand what it is like to be
:01:01. > :01:05.poor is laughable. They might as well say, let them eat cake.
:01:05. > :01:09.And is there anyone who likes apple pie quite as much as actor Jason
:01:09. > :01:17.Biggs? The star of American Pie swaps a love of baked goods, for
:01:17. > :01:22.grassroots politics. I thought this was behind me, but there is
:01:22. > :01:25.something about being here with you, No soggy bottoms on This Week.
:01:25. > :01:28.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, the Victorian workhouse of BBC
:01:28. > :01:31.current affairs, where the undeserving poor - that would be
:01:32. > :01:37.you, dear impoverished viewer - is served a thin gruel of political
:01:37. > :01:40.insight, and isn't interested enough to ask for more. It seems
:01:40. > :01:45.Victorian values are particularly close to the heart of our
:01:45. > :01:48.Chancellor, Gideon Osborne - boo! - who delighted the mob at his party
:01:48. > :01:51.conference this week by revealing a growth plan that harked back to a
:01:51. > :01:59.simpler, more innocent, less bureaucratic age, when pawn shops
:01:59. > :02:03.were all you needed to lighten the economic gloom. Good old Gidders
:02:03. > :02:08.has come up with a spiffing wheeze straight from the Old Curiosity
:02:08. > :02:11.Shop. If people in Hard Times are willing to trade cash for gold,
:02:11. > :02:14.then maybe they're desperate enough to give away their basic employment
:02:14. > :02:17.rights for shares, and sacrifice workplace security for 30 pieces of
:02:17. > :02:27.silver and a long-term stake in a company looking for a short-term
:02:27. > :02:31.way to fire them. Rumours he's about to offer a free TV licence to
:02:31. > :02:36.any parent willing to send their child up a chimney have yet to be
:02:36. > :02:39.confirmed. But it's only a matter of time. Speaking of those who know
:02:39. > :02:43.the price of everything and the value of absolutely nothing, I'm
:02:43. > :02:46.joined on our dark satanic sofa tonight by two characters sure to
:02:46. > :02:51.bring a sentimental tear to any Victorian eye, the Artful Dodger
:02:51. > :02:54.and Little Nell of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:02:54. > :03:04.of #manontheleft, Alan Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain, Michael "choo
:03:04. > :03:10.
:03:10. > :03:14.choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week, Michael?
:03:14. > :03:17.The deal between the UK and Scottish governments over a
:03:17. > :03:22.referendum. I had not seen this coming but it has been settled
:03:22. > :03:28.there will be only one question, either yes or No to independence.
:03:28. > :03:31.This seems to shoot Alex Salmond's Fox, because I think he wanted a
:03:31. > :03:34.three-part referendum in which probably most would have gone for
:03:34. > :03:38.devolution Max, which would have given him a marvellous solution, to
:03:38. > :03:43.go on blaming the English for all of the woes of Scotland, but with a
:03:43. > :03:47.lot of government authority and still have all the money. Now he is
:03:47. > :03:51.going to have a referendum in which, I suspect, he can only lose, in the
:03:51. > :03:55.sense that if the Scots vote No, this is contrary to his
:03:55. > :03:59.recommendation, and if they vote Yes, and Scotland its independence,
:03:59. > :04:03.that is when his problems begin, because Scotland severed from
:04:03. > :04:09.English money would be a difficult country to run. He is going for the
:04:09. > :04:13.popular vote north of the border. Allen, your moment. Of the letter
:04:13. > :04:18.that nine energy and energy infrastructure companies cent on
:04:18. > :04:23.Monday, including Siemens, the biggest electronics manufacturer in
:04:23. > :04:28.the world. They're worried about the Government's long-term policy.
:04:28. > :04:32.Given this is so important to the government's push to rebalance the
:04:32. > :04:39.economy, and important to my constituency, because Siemens plant
:04:39. > :04:44.to build there, this is worrying. The this is subsidies in taxpayers'
:04:44. > :04:50.money. They have their snouts in the trough, haven't they? What they
:04:50. > :04:54.are looking for his policy based on facts and evidence, and the huge
:04:54. > :05:00.amounts of money they are willing to invest are based on the fact
:05:00. > :05:04.that this policy will not change. That letter is a serious message.
:05:04. > :05:07.We are talking corporate wealth here, which brings me to the next
:05:07. > :05:10.subject, a different kind of welfare for different people.
:05:10. > :05:13.Now, the Tory faithful drooled with delight in Birmingham this week, as
:05:13. > :05:17.one unknown Government minister after another took to the stage and
:05:17. > :05:20.told them just how they were putting the country back on track,
:05:20. > :05:23.though clearly not the West Coast Main Line track. But the one
:05:23. > :05:27.announcement that really had them licking their lips was news
:05:27. > :05:31.there'll be a further �10 billion cut to the welfare budget. But
:05:31. > :05:35.outside on the streets, not everyone is as thrilled. And we've
:05:35. > :05:45.asked one critic, comedian Ava Vidal, to give us her Take Of The
:05:45. > :06:09.
:06:10. > :06:13.Nothing seems to excite the Tories so much as cutting benefits. This
:06:13. > :06:17.week in Birmingham, the loudest cheers were reserved when it was
:06:17. > :06:20.announced that 10 billion will be slashed from the welfare bill. They
:06:20. > :06:26.will be targeting people on housing benefit and poorer people with
:06:26. > :06:30.large families. Nice! To listen to Conservative MPs, you would be
:06:30. > :06:34.forgiven for thinking that everybody on benefits is a no-good
:06:34. > :06:40.shirker. They spend all day at home in bed with the curtains drawn,
:06:41. > :06:45.watching television, playing video games. And it is all being funded
:06:45. > :06:50.by the taxpayer. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact,
:06:50. > :06:55.93% of new housing benefit claimants are employed. To portray
:06:55. > :06:59.them as undeserving of support, and pit them against first-time buyers,
:06:59. > :07:03.is intellectually dishonest. As a teenage mother, I had to rely on
:07:03. > :07:07.benefits for a short period of time, and I can tell you this, the whole
:07:07. > :07:11.process is humiliating. You are already made to feel like a
:07:11. > :07:14.scrounger, a drain on society, and whilst there are some people that
:07:14. > :07:17.take the Mick and take advantage of the system, the vast majority of
:07:17. > :07:25.benefit claimants were like me, people who needed a little bit of
:07:25. > :07:28.help to get back on their feet. Cutting help for the poor is
:07:28. > :07:32.madness. I have been working on this estate and in the surrounding
:07:32. > :07:36.area ever since last year's riots. Many of these young people want
:07:36. > :07:42.nothing more than a job and their independence. Housing benefit is
:07:42. > :07:45.not a lifestyle option. It is a necessity. Many of these kids are
:07:45. > :07:50.fleeing unsafe situations. They cannot just move back home that
:07:50. > :08:00.mummy and Daddy, like their middle class counterparts. Why won't the
:08:00. > :08:01.
:08:01. > :08:04.Government acknowledge that this is not their fault? What sort of
:08:04. > :08:08.people think that cutting the life support of the very poor is going
:08:08. > :08:11.to help anybody on an estate like this? It should not be the poorest
:08:11. > :08:15.who are bearing the burden of cutting the deficit, especially
:08:15. > :08:20.since it was those in the well-paid financial sector who caused all the
:08:21. > :08:25.problems in the first place. I am one of the lucky ones. I was able
:08:25. > :08:29.to carve out a career for myself, enabling me to pay back into the
:08:29. > :08:33.system. But that is only because I got hold when I needed it. This
:08:33. > :08:37.Government are pitting so-called Sherpas, those without work,
:08:37. > :08:40.against so-called strivers, those lucky enough to have a job. People
:08:40. > :08:44.do not choose to live a life on benefit, they have it thrust upon
:08:44. > :08:51.them, something that George and Dave would not know the first thing
:08:51. > :08:57.about. Ava Vidal joins us from that estate
:08:57. > :09:02.in south London. Welcome to the programme. Thank you. What do you
:09:02. > :09:05.make of the argument, Michael? is what a lot of people say and it
:09:05. > :09:10.is fairly easy to say, but I think the welfare state in this country
:09:10. > :09:15.is vastly too big. I think it is making the country uncompetitive.
:09:15. > :09:21.We spend 47% of our national income through the Government, whereas it
:09:22. > :09:24.was 38% in 1999 under Gordon Brown. We will go down as a country,
:09:24. > :09:30.declining year on year, losing competitive ness, particularly
:09:30. > :09:33.against emerging nations. Britain is in the lead about doing
:09:33. > :09:36.something about it. When you are spending over 100 billion on
:09:36. > :09:40.welfare, I do not think it is unreasonable to say you can cut 10%
:09:40. > :09:43.from it. And I do not agree with your basic point that welfare does
:09:43. > :09:46.not influence behaviour. I think it has fundamental influences on
:09:46. > :09:51.behaviour, and some of the examples that the Government was giving, for
:09:51. > :09:54.example, if you are in work you do not get housing benefit, but if you
:09:54. > :09:58.decide to leave your parents' house and put yourself out of work, you
:09:58. > :10:04.get housing benefit. That is a clear incentive to people to be out
:10:04. > :10:08.of work. It would be if it was true. It is not true. One in eight people
:10:08. > :10:13.on housing benefit are unemployed. The vast majority actually have a
:10:13. > :10:17.working adult in the house. It is fair enough to say it is an easy
:10:17. > :10:20.argument to make. This is an easy argument because it is the truth. I
:10:20. > :10:27.understand that people are concerned and want to cut the
:10:27. > :10:31.welfare bill, but I also do not see the same people attacking the
:10:31. > :10:34.bankers in the same way. In fact, they are the biggest welfare
:10:34. > :10:39.claimants of all, because they got bailed out. Do you think nothing
:10:39. > :10:46.has gone wrong with the welfare system? We have had since the end
:10:46. > :10:51.of the Second World War. It has grown under every government. It
:10:51. > :10:55.began as what was meant to be a hand up. My parents told me it was
:10:55. > :11:01.a hand up in tough times. People now think that for too many folk it
:11:01. > :11:09.is just a handout. A handout that never stops. That is the argument
:11:09. > :11:12.made on the other side. Does that not happen? Very rarely. You keep
:11:12. > :11:18.hearing about people making fraudulent claims. It is a very
:11:18. > :11:24.small minority. Not fraudulent claims. I was thinking more of
:11:24. > :11:29.people who simply get trapped into poverty because their lifestyles
:11:30. > :11:36.become welfare lifestyles. The people who cheat, I am not talking
:11:37. > :11:39.about them. Everybody must be against people who cheat. Obviously,
:11:39. > :11:43.that is a concern. People get trapped on benefits because they
:11:43. > :11:47.cannot afford to work. So why is the Government attacking people who
:11:47. > :11:51.have got no choice? They are taking away the benefits altogether, which
:11:51. > :11:55.will make things worse, as opposed to arguing for a living wage.
:11:55. > :12:01.is a difficult one for Labour. I remember Tony Blair, before
:12:01. > :12:07.becoming Prime Minister, talking about the welfare bill being a bill
:12:07. > :12:11.for failure. He criticised the Tories, up to 97. But under Labour,
:12:11. > :12:17.the welfare bill rose, even for working-age people, it rose. And
:12:17. > :12:23.yet you had 10 years of growth. Let's be clear, welfare reform
:12:23. > :12:30.started under Labour. I was Work and Pensions Secretary when we had
:12:30. > :12:37.seen incapacity benefit rise between 79 and 97 p from 700,000 up
:12:37. > :12:41.to 2.6 million. We had to stop the flow on to that, which was enormous,
:12:41. > :12:46.and would have taken us up to something like 4 million incapacity
:12:46. > :12:49.benefit, and then do something about the stopper. When you do
:12:49. > :12:53.something about people who have been on incapacity benefit for some
:12:53. > :12:57.time, they knock your door down to get some help. We changed the law,
:12:57. > :13:00.so if they put their toe in the water, these are people with
:13:00. > :13:04.illnesses, serious illness sometimes, but they want to get
:13:04. > :13:08.into work. If it went wrong, they would not have to go to the back of
:13:08. > :13:14.the queue and come through the incapacity benefit system again.
:13:14. > :13:17.these reforms are a continuation of what you started? Yes. But there is
:13:17. > :13:21.the introduction of time-limited benefits, which I would not agree
:13:21. > :13:28.to. Secondly, the point being made is the representation of these
:13:28. > :13:33.people as if they are all in string vests, looking out the window. How
:13:33. > :13:37.do we know they are not? Because we live with them. I was brought up in
:13:37. > :13:41.that situation. Because we see them in our constituency. You say that
:13:41. > :13:44.you live with them. How come all of the focus groups and opinion polls
:13:44. > :13:49.show that these reforms that the Tories are talking about are even
:13:49. > :13:52.more popular with Labour voters than with Tory voters? What you
:13:52. > :13:57.want to talk about, what is popular with voters, which is why they
:13:57. > :14:00.return to this over and over again this week? Do you want to talk
:14:00. > :14:04.about that, or about the real problem, how to get people back
:14:04. > :14:09.into work? But the population is not just about pursuing popular
:14:09. > :14:12.politics. There has been a change in public opinion. Why? Precisely
:14:12. > :14:15.the point you made a moment ago, that people are living with this
:14:15. > :14:18.and seeing it, and their observation of what they are seeing
:14:19. > :14:23.has led to a change in public opinion, because they think lots of
:14:24. > :14:33.people are either cheating, or they are being brought down by welfare.
:14:34. > :14:39.
:14:39. > :14:49.I would say public opinion is changing because of the deem
:14:49. > :14:49.
:14:49. > :14:54.onisation of people on benefits. He was speaking of people under 25
:14:54. > :14:59.living in council flats. Do you think it's fair that someone who
:14:59. > :15:04.has never worked can have a flat or a house paid for by the rest of us
:15:04. > :15:09.when someone who does work can't afford to rent a similar property?
:15:09. > :15:13.What I think is not fair is that somebody who has never worked would
:15:13. > :15:19.never have the chance to go to university because the fee have
:15:19. > :15:26.been hiked so far, they won't get EMA or anything to help improve
:15:26. > :15:36.their lives. If you remove the benefits... But people who work
:15:36. > :15:39.
:15:39. > :15:46.can't afford to go to university either and they can't afford to buy
:15:46. > :15:52.a house. 40% of the benefits bill goes to pensioners. We are talking
:15:52. > :15:58.about the �80 billion that goes to people of working age. Michael made
:15:58. > :16:02.the point that taking 10% off that doesn't seem to be fair. The other
:16:02. > :16:07.point is the number of people receiving housing benefit who are
:16:07. > :16:11.in work. In if a young kid decides to get on their week, to quote
:16:11. > :16:16.Norman Tebbit, and they get work, but the pay is so poor that they
:16:16. > :16:24.have to claim housing benefit, putting them into a position of
:16:24. > :16:28.removing that. There is quite a large percentage in this situation
:16:28. > :16:33.of new claimants, it is the caricature. It is Cameron's
:16:33. > :16:38.caricature. It is not fact. Where Iain Duncan Smith is in this
:16:38. > :16:43.argument, who used to have a good bit of credibility on this, did IDS,
:16:43. > :16:50.because he was away from the old Peter Lilley, "I've got a little
:16:50. > :16:55.list" stuff and helping people to get people back into work, the vast
:16:55. > :16:58.majority of whom would accept that help. The bits I heard were rather
:16:58. > :17:02.specific. They were about age limiting the age at which you can
:17:02. > :17:07.start claiming housing benefit. I do think if you are helping young
:17:07. > :17:11.people into the welfare system very early, that's a bad thing to do.
:17:11. > :17:17.One of the secure barriers you have is people's age. One thing you
:17:17. > :17:21.can't adapt so to is your age, so that seem as good thing. And if you
:17:21. > :17:25.are on benefit and you decide to increase the size of your family,
:17:25. > :17:29.that is not something necessarily that the state should have to fund.
:17:29. > :17:35.If you were in work you would have to make that decision, can I afford
:17:35. > :17:40.to add to my family. These seem specific and non-generalised.
:17:40. > :17:44.want to say by using age, that's assuming that every person in this
:17:44. > :17:48.country in a certain age is in the same position, and that isn't right.
:17:48. > :17:53.Most of the kids who live on the estate don't come from the
:17:53. > :17:57.background that Mr Cameron and George Osborne come from. They have
:17:57. > :18:02.no parents. But Bill Clinton did welfare reforms in America and he
:18:02. > :18:06.comes from the same background as people on the estate. He also went
:18:06. > :18:10.to Oxford University. He ma made his opportunities. He had the
:18:10. > :18:16.opportunity to do that. He made the opportunity. The kids on that
:18:16. > :18:21.estate won't have an EMA. But will they make opportunities if they can
:18:21. > :18:25.live indeaf lit on welfare? believe that some people will.
:18:25. > :18:28.Some? A small minority of people do take the Mickey and bleed the
:18:28. > :18:34.system, but the vast majority of people do not want to go on
:18:34. > :18:39.benefits. Going on benefits is not an easy thing to do. It is a
:18:39. > :18:42.humiliating process. Thank you for being with us. Thank you.
:18:42. > :18:45.Now, if the Tory conference can greet a picture of Louise Mensch
:18:45. > :18:49.with a chorus of boos, which they did, and even scoff at a picture of
:18:49. > :18:52.Andrew Mitchell, whose jaikit, as they say in Glasgow, is hingin by a
:18:52. > :18:56.shooglie peg, then surely we can welcome our next guest with our own
:18:56. > :19:00.This Week "tumbler of booze". So top up the Blue Nun and raise it
:19:00. > :19:04.aloft, because coming up: the man who made us all think twice about
:19:04. > :19:09.ordering a second helping of apple pie, actor Jason Biggs, who will be
:19:09. > :19:11.talking grassroots action and American politics. And for those of
:19:11. > :19:20.you happy to pontificate rather than agitate, there's plenty of
:19:20. > :19:23.opportunity on the Twitter, the Fleecebook, and the Interweb.
:19:23. > :19:25.Now, whether it's Tarzan Heseltine, King of the Jungle, or Michael
:19:26. > :19:29.Portillo, King of the Swingers, political parties have always had
:19:29. > :19:32.their conference darlings. This year Boris Johnson sent the Tory
:19:32. > :19:36.faithful into raptures, while Andrew Mitchell turned them into a
:19:36. > :19:38.lynch mob. But unlike Mr Mitchell, we thought we should actually
:19:38. > :19:48.bother turning up to take our punishment, and so sent journalist
:19:48. > :19:55.
:19:55. > :19:58.Mary Ann Sieghart to Birmingham for I'm in Birmingham for a big annual
:19:58. > :20:04.event that gets every Politico's mouth watering. People have come
:20:04. > :20:14.from all over the country to page part. No, it is not the Tory Party
:20:14. > :20:19.
:20:19. > :20:22.conference. It's national chocolate Putting together the perfect box of
:20:22. > :20:25.chocolates is a delicate matter. It is tempting to go for a mix, so
:20:26. > :20:30.you've got something that appeals to the palate of traditionalist who
:20:30. > :20:40.is want the purest Tory cocoa solids. And also something that
:20:40. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:46.appeals to the public who prefer good old Dairy Milk.
:20:46. > :20:51.That's what David Cameron's been doing this week. He gave a speech
:20:51. > :20:55.of the electricliest soft centre, while the hard nuts in his cabinet
:20:56. > :20:58.were talking about beating up burglars. No wonder only 10% of
:20:58. > :21:03.voters say they are very clear about what the Prime Minister
:21:03. > :21:06.stands for. The economy isn't helping. This week the IMF produced
:21:07. > :21:13.the most downbeat report on Britain's prospects. The Chancellor
:21:13. > :21:19.dressed like an undertaker and sounded like one too. He added the
:21:19. > :21:24.barest stinkling of sugar: economy is healing. That healing is
:21:24. > :21:29.taking longer than we hoped, because the damage was greater than
:21:29. > :21:35.we feared. But let the message from this conference be clear. We will
:21:35. > :21:41.finish the job that we have started. APPLAUSE
:21:41. > :21:47.Tory MPs and activist it is are feeling restless and discontented.
:21:47. > :21:51.They want their taste buds tickled with Tory treats. That's what the
:21:51. > :21:57.Justice Secretary gave them. None of us really know how frightening
:21:57. > :22:00.it would be if confronted bay burglar in the middle of the night.
:22:00. > :22:05.Even if a householder faced with that situation uses noors in the
:22:05. > :22:07.cold light of day might seem over the top, unless their response is
:22:07. > :22:14.grossly disproportionate, the law will be on their side.
:22:14. > :22:19.APPLAUSE There were so many flavours on
:22:19. > :22:26.offer this week that it was hard to get a cohernt sense of what was
:22:26. > :22:30.going on. I left not sure what party this is these days. There was
:22:30. > :22:35.Michael Gove, the Milky Bar Kid, gaving a spaech on education that
:22:35. > :22:40.any Blairite Labour reformer could have given. In England, if you are
:22:40. > :22:47.born poor, you are overwhelmingly likely to go to a poor school and
:22:47. > :22:50.to stay poor. It is a scandal. It's a reproach to all our consciences
:22:50. > :23:00.that there are so many young people who are never given the chance to
:23:00. > :23:05.go to university. And I'm pledged to end it.
:23:05. > :23:11.# Only the crumblyest, flakiest chocolate, tastes like chocolate
:23:11. > :23:15.never tasted before. # Sorry, I got distracted. Some of
:23:15. > :23:22.those flavours will have left a bitter taste in David Cameron's
:23:22. > :23:27.mouth though. The pleb-hating walnut - Chief Whip, sorry, Andrew
:23:27. > :23:34.Mitchell, didn't show his face this week. Though when a video image was
:23:34. > :23:41.projected at the conference, the audience jeered him. And what about
:23:41. > :23:45.Ann Widdecombe getting apoplectic about gay marriage. Let's stand up
:23:45. > :23:48.to the bigots. Let's protect marriage, work for a free society,
:23:48. > :23:53.because there was a time when no Conservative would ever have done
:23:53. > :24:00.anything else. But the highlight of the week for
:24:00. > :24:05.many was the delectable Boris Johnson, the Milk Tray of the
:24:05. > :24:15.Conservative Party. He is the naughty indulgence that members and
:24:15. > :24:17.
:24:17. > :24:22.I believe in miracles # Where you from, you sexy thing #
:24:22. > :24:27.Boris was on his best behaviour this week, saying hardly anything
:24:27. > :24:35.that could be construed as misloyal. While on the outside he was loyal
:24:35. > :24:39.to his leader, everybody knew that that shrewd coating hides an
:24:39. > :24:43.ambitious inner. I was please to do so see thaw have called me a blonde
:24:43. > :24:47.haired mop. If I'm a mop, Dave, then you are a broom. A broom that
:24:47. > :24:52.is cleaning up the mess left by the Labour Government, and a fantastic
:24:52. > :24:56.job you are doing. And to the leader's speech. Cameron was at
:24:56. > :25:02.pains to point out he was a serious man for serious times. But also
:25:02. > :25:05.that he was determined not to relinquish the centre ground to Ed
:25:05. > :25:11.Miliband's new one nation late. We've been led by the daughter of a
:25:11. > :25:14.grosser, the son of a music hall perform per, bay Jew when Jews were
:25:14. > :25:19.persecuted, bay woman when women were sidelined. We don't look at
:25:19. > :25:24.the label on the tin. We look at what's in it. Let me put that
:25:24. > :25:31.another way. We don't preach about one nation but practise class war,
:25:31. > :25:35.we just get behind people who want to gets on in life. APPLAUSE
:25:35. > :25:40.Let's get O'Brien on the rise, deficit paid down, tough decisions
:25:40. > :25:48.taken, growth fired up, aspiration backed all the way. We know what it
:25:48. > :25:51.takes to win, so let's get out there and do it.
:25:51. > :25:56.David Cameron understands that the sweet spot of the electorate lies
:25:56. > :26:00.right in the middle. But it is not enough just to say it once a year
:26:00. > :26:03.at party conference. You've got to follow it through in Government and,
:26:03. > :26:13.unlike this week in Birmingham, make sure that everybody around you
:26:13. > :26:14.
:26:14. > :26:17.is saying the same thing too. Mary Ann Sieghart. I'm sure she
:26:17. > :26:21.will bring the chocolates back to share with us.
:26:21. > :26:24.There's been a development on the Andrew Mitchell story which seems
:26:24. > :26:28.to be determined not to die. Tomorrow's Daily Telegraph, famous
:26:28. > :26:32.right of centre newspaper, is calling on Mr Mitchell to resign
:26:32. > :26:39.for the sake of his party. He should do the seent thick and stand
:26:39. > :26:44.down. What's your reaction? -- do the decent thing and stand down.
:26:44. > :26:51.What's your reaction? I find it quite unlikely he used the word
:26:51. > :26:55.pleb. I notice the police reports were leaked to the press. That
:26:55. > :27:00.having been said, what's very depressing for him and the Prime
:27:00. > :27:05.Minister is that this story has run and run. Certain people have an
:27:05. > :27:10.interest in this story running and running, the Labour Party and parts
:27:10. > :27:15.of the press. It becomes a serious problem when the Chief Whip's
:27:15. > :27:20.position is a running story. But at Birmingham, in the evening at the
:27:20. > :27:26.various parties, Cabinet Ministers were openly talking about how he
:27:26. > :27:30.could be encouraged to resign. That's not just the media. That's
:27:30. > :27:36.not the police. That's the Tories. I said a number of people have kept
:27:36. > :27:41.it running, including people in his own party. How do you see it Alan?
:27:41. > :27:45.The problem is he didn't say, if he said he didn't use the word pleb,
:27:45. > :27:51.he accepted there was an altercation, but he didn't tell us
:27:51. > :27:56.what words he did use. That's his big problem. If he is going to make
:27:56. > :28:01.statements, he needs to say what the words are were. It all looked
:28:01. > :28:04.as if it was quiet, that he was out of the woods. And because of the
:28:04. > :28:07.Conservative Party conference, where you would think, a Labour
:28:07. > :28:10.Party conference might have put more pressure on him but the
:28:10. > :28:16.Conservative Party conference, it is extraordinary. It does look as
:28:16. > :28:20.if his goose is cooked. You thing so? I think so. The Cameron's
:28:20. > :28:24.speech, what did you make of it? Thought it was exactly the speech
:28:24. > :28:28.that was need. I wish he had been talking in those terms for the last
:28:28. > :28:33.six months. The issues he addressed, the competitiveness of Britain, the
:28:33. > :28:36.size of the state, the need to reduce the size of the state to
:28:36. > :28:42.make us more competitive, I thought these were exactly the right issues.
:28:42. > :28:46.To say that it was sink or swim. He has a real sense of the country
:28:46. > :28:50.being in peril. It is not understood outside and which is
:28:50. > :28:54.certainly ignored by Labour's idea that this is a moment, because we
:28:54. > :29:00.are only having to pay 2% on Government borrowing, this is the
:29:00. > :29:03.moment to borrow more. That's it not the way the Government sees it.
:29:03. > :29:08.The speech was in a way a compliment to Ed Miliband, because
:29:08. > :29:13.so many of the themes that Mr Cameron chose to address had been
:29:13. > :29:16.raised the previous week by the Labour leader. In that way it was
:29:16. > :29:21.curiously defensive. I do agree, you would wait a long time for a
:29:21. > :29:26.bad speech from Cameron. It it was kind of speech he needed to make,
:29:26. > :29:33.but he needed to make two it years in when none of what he said would
:29:33. > :29:38.happen is even beginning to Han. His problem is borrowing's up. His
:29:38. > :29:41.problem is that his gamble, a big Guam tbl I think, is not paying off
:29:41. > :29:51.Those circumstances he made exactly the right speech for the right time
:29:51. > :30:00.
:30:00. > :30:05.You have to understand that if you change the policies, things will
:30:05. > :30:10.get a great deal worse. He took on the Business of being posh, the
:30:10. > :30:14.privilege, he took it head-on. He has not done that before. He could
:30:14. > :30:19.not bring himself to mention that he had gone to Eton, but he did say
:30:19. > :30:24.he had gone to a posh school. Will that make a difference, have an
:30:24. > :30:28.impact? Like the point about Andrew Mitchell, it would have been better
:30:28. > :30:32.if he had said Eton. And it would have been better if instead of
:30:32. > :30:39.saying he wanted to spread privilege, if he had said he wanted
:30:39. > :30:42.to spread opportunity for success. I think he needs to go back over
:30:42. > :30:46.the ground again. As we have discussed on the programme before,
:30:46. > :30:52.the problem is not only that he comes from Eton, which ought not to
:30:52. > :30:57.be a problem at all. It is the composition of the Cabinet which
:30:57. > :31:00.looks too privileged. But this is a running sore. We have just heard
:31:00. > :31:04.someone on the programme going on and on about how these people
:31:04. > :31:09.cannot understand the working class. Coming back to Andrew Mitchell,
:31:09. > :31:15.that is where it is a poignant narrative, because his story
:31:15. > :31:18.reminds everybody of their problem. It does. He did not mention the
:31:18. > :31:23.police in his speech, maybe because of that, but he should have
:31:23. > :31:27.mentioned them. He was talking about the Olympics, the NHS, the
:31:27. > :31:31.armed forces and all the rest, and the police made a huge contribution
:31:31. > :31:36.to the Olympics. They have just had two people killed. The fact that he
:31:36. > :31:40.did not mention them looked a bit spiteful. There is an altercation
:31:40. > :31:46.between Cameron and the police at the moment. Boris went to
:31:46. > :31:50.Birmingham, and he behaved. And, as one senior Tory said to me, he
:31:50. > :31:55.behaved. That means he is really serious about being the next Tory
:31:55. > :31:59.leader. If you took a two month period, I do not think you could
:31:59. > :32:02.oche and he has behaved. He has attacked most elements of
:32:03. > :32:06.Government policy and taken every populist Avenue that he could. He
:32:06. > :32:09.is here to defend the middle classes, or whatever, it is a
:32:09. > :32:14.disgrace that the Government has not made up its mind about airport
:32:14. > :32:19.provision in London. He has had quite a few attacks. On the subject
:32:19. > :32:27.of Boris, I might as well just walk off into the sunset. You have done
:32:27. > :32:35.that a few times already. I cannot understand this obsession with
:32:35. > :32:40.Boris. What did he do to you? Come on, you can tell us. It will not go
:32:40. > :32:46.further. What did he do? You were not even in the same bunk at school.
:32:46. > :32:49.What did he do? I think we are discussing a series Prime Minister
:32:49. > :32:54.taking serious measures about serious issues. By contrast, Boris
:32:54. > :33:00.is not dealing with anything serious. Something happened, didn't
:33:00. > :33:04.it? Boris could not have made that speech. It was the Blonde ambition
:33:04. > :33:09.tour. He is the closest thing to Silvio Berlusconi in British
:33:09. > :33:14.politics. He makes people laugh and smile. I still reckon it is a long
:33:14. > :33:21.shot that he will become Tory leader, but if he did, would Labour
:33:21. > :33:27.be worried? He has an appeal that goes beyond normal politicians.
:33:27. > :33:30.That is true. Would we be worried? No. I think for the reasons that
:33:30. > :33:35.Michaels says. Michael was in parliament with him. From where I
:33:35. > :33:40.was sitting, Boris did not seem to be that good in that situation. He
:33:40. > :33:43.is a good fun character and all the rest of it. Cameron is safe.
:33:43. > :33:47.Firstly, Boris does not have a seat, and if he stood down as London
:33:47. > :33:52.mayor and tried to get a seat before 2015 that would be strange
:33:52. > :33:56.and would damage them in London. After 2015, he might be the next
:33:56. > :34:01.leader, but he is not going to depose Cameron. And if he is not,
:34:01. > :34:06.nobody will. And the Lib Dems are completely written out of the
:34:06. > :34:12.script by Mr Cameron. He did not mention his coalition partners.
:34:12. > :34:17.is an extraordinary situation. Both Mary Ann Sieghart was talking about
:34:17. > :34:23.confusion. There is a confusion. The strategy was to move the
:34:23. > :34:27.Conservative Party to the centre ground. To have a Minister of
:34:27. > :34:30.Justice saying, if you lay out a burglar on the floor and he is
:34:30. > :34:36.unconscious that is all right, but if you stab him, that is not all
:34:36. > :34:40.right. It is so beneath the dignity of a minister of the Crown. Lord
:34:41. > :34:44.Chancellor, for goodness sake. Oh, no, he is not... Of
:34:44. > :34:47.It's been a long three weeks. Conference season brings all sorts
:34:48. > :34:51.of creatures out of the woodwork, not just the termites sitting on
:34:51. > :34:53.our sofa. Here at This Week we've reacquainted ourselves with the
:34:53. > :34:56.murky underworld of the party faithful and been extremely
:34:56. > :35:00.impressed by their dedication. Of course there's no such enthusiasm
:35:00. > :35:04.here. Alan and Michael have been trying to sneak out for a Balti all
:35:04. > :35:07.evening. Ah, loves young dream! So in honour of those trodden
:35:07. > :35:17.underfoot, we've decided to celebrate the unsung earthworms of
:35:17. > :35:26.
:35:26. > :35:31.politics and put the grassroots Because its grassroots politics,
:35:31. > :35:35.folks. A new film tells the true story of a political activist
:35:35. > :35:41.fighting for a seat on Seattle City Council and inspiring everyone
:35:41. > :35:48.around him. But after three weeks of party conferences, come the same
:35:48. > :35:51.be said in the UK? Well, it did not take much for the Tory rank and
:35:51. > :35:57.file to see the light. I honestly think it is the Messiah that
:35:57. > :36:04.Britain needed. Cameron is the Messiah? The Messiah that Britain
:36:04. > :36:07.needed. Stateside, the Obama campaign accused Romney of causing
:36:07. > :36:13.a grassroots outcry with his pledge to cut the public broadcasting
:36:14. > :36:18.budget. Big, yellow, a minister our economy. Mitt Romney knows that it
:36:18. > :36:26.is not Wall Street you have to worry about, it is sesame Street.
:36:26. > :36:31.Mitt Romney, taking on our enemies, no matter where they nest.
:36:31. > :36:34.Grassroots anger can be a dangerous thing. The Greek protests against
:36:34. > :36:40.Angela Merkel proved that when politics fails, things can easily
:36:40. > :36:43.spin out of control. So, do the little people really matter when it
:36:43. > :36:51.comes to the big decisions, or will the grass roots always lose the
:36:51. > :36:56.battle against the giant political weeds.
:36:56. > :37:00.We are joined in the studio by Jason Biggs. Welcome to London and
:37:00. > :37:04.welcome to our studio. You have done this movie about the grass
:37:04. > :37:11.roots movement, people who were not involved in politics deciding to
:37:12. > :37:21.run for office in Seattle. That is right. It is based on a true story,
:37:21. > :37:27.the 2001 Seattle city council election. There was a guy who
:37:27. > :37:32.decided to run against a long-time incumbent on pretty much a single
:37:32. > :37:42.platform, at least initially, which was to extend the monorail. For
:37:42. > :37:44.
:37:45. > :37:49.green reasons and sort of anti- corruption reasons. My character
:37:49. > :37:55.reluctantly becomes his campaign manager. And do you learn in this
:37:55. > :37:58.that you can come from nowhere and take on the big party machines?
:37:59. > :38:08.What the Phil Mears, more than anything, it is a David versus
:38:08. > :38:13.Goliath story. -- what the movie is. Nowadays, it is inspiring, to say
:38:13. > :38:18.the least. It is interesting, too. To hear you talk about the goings-
:38:18. > :38:23.on politically in the UK, and you alluded to the presidential
:38:23. > :38:28.campaign in the States, this is what is in your face. This is big,
:38:28. > :38:31.broad politics that are happening, and this is what we are fed all of
:38:32. > :38:41.the time and what we talk about, understandably. But there is
:38:42. > :38:42.
:38:43. > :38:49.another level of politics that, frankly, I think, affects people.
:38:49. > :38:55.More of a direct impact. Exactly. So you think we are wasting our
:38:55. > :39:01.time. Complete the. You get paid to be here? It is the BBC, so you
:39:01. > :39:07.can't be getting paid much. Could you speak into the camera and say
:39:07. > :39:11.that. You know a lot already. think even the US taxpayers are
:39:11. > :39:16.paying you at this point! We will take money from anywhere. Are there
:39:16. > :39:21.any lessons in the movie? Grassroots issues are often about
:39:21. > :39:31.single issues, and his is often difficult to sustain a single issue
:39:31. > :39:36.
:39:36. > :39:42.-- it is often difficult to sustain. With this story, they became so
:39:42. > :39:48.enveloped by the process and excited and inspired by it, that it
:39:48. > :39:55.became a bigger thing. They realised the magnitude of what they
:39:55. > :39:59.were doing. Did they win? Do you want me to give it away? No, don't.
:39:59. > :40:04.If they did not at least come close, it would not have been an
:40:04. > :40:07.interesting story. Say no more, all we will get complaints. I would
:40:07. > :40:14.suggest that the grass roots of American politics is a lot
:40:14. > :40:19.healthier. There is no grass roots here. In America, eight on the
:40:19. > :40:23.right you have the Tea Party, which has almost taken over the
:40:23. > :40:29.Republican Party as a grassroots movement. And occupy wall Street
:40:29. > :40:33.was a lot stronger on the left than whatever it was called here.
:40:33. > :40:36.think you are right, broadly speaking. There are exceptions. In
:40:36. > :40:40.the mayoral elections come we had a couple of people coming through who
:40:40. > :40:44.were not on the party ticket. We were discussing outside that there
:40:44. > :40:47.was an election in the constituency of Kidderminster 10 years ago, when
:40:48. > :40:53.a doctor won it on the basis of saving the local hospital, Richard
:40:53. > :40:57.Taylor. That was one individual. am saying there are very few
:40:57. > :41:01.examples. What is such a pity is that we are just about to elect
:41:02. > :41:05.police commissioners, a new thing in this country, and unfortunately
:41:05. > :41:09.the parties have taken that over. On the whole, it does not look like
:41:09. > :41:15.charismatic individuals thrown up by the grassroots are going to make
:41:15. > :41:20.it. I doubt whether anyone could be elected as American President as a
:41:20. > :41:25.grassroots on that kind of campaign, just as it very rarely happens in
:41:25. > :41:29.Parliament. But it happens at local council level and Meryl the full.
:41:29. > :41:34.Political parties have not taken over the police commissioners, they
:41:34. > :41:38.have just put up their candidates. Some very important candidates have
:41:39. > :41:44.stepped down because they have said they do not want to be political.
:41:44. > :41:51.Give me a real grassroots movement in this country. The one that saved
:41:51. > :41:57.the Carlisle railway 20 years ago. That is all that he can do! It is
:41:57. > :42:01.interesting, because in America... Do not laugh, it only encourages
:42:01. > :42:05.him! In America, you can make no political impact unless you only
:42:05. > :42:11.have a ton of money. But in your movie, that is not true. Well, in
:42:11. > :42:16.the story that we tell, it is not true. But in the broad political
:42:16. > :42:21.spectrum in the States, it is very much true. I think in general,
:42:21. > :42:25.still, it is true that you need a well financed campaign to make
:42:25. > :42:31.anything happen. Obama had a bit of a grassroots movement going for him
:42:31. > :42:41.in the last election. For a presidential candidate, if you look
:42:41. > :42:43.
:42:43. > :42:48.at his resume, he leapfrogged a lot. He had things going on online.
:42:48. > :42:58.does not have that this time. was the underdog. You have a lot
:42:58. > :42:58.
:42:58. > :43:04.more going for you. We know that he won, but did he win again? Do not
:43:04. > :43:09.say a word! You're giving the game away. Thank goodness we have come
:43:09. > :43:14.to the end, or nobody would go to see the movie. Good luck. When is
:43:14. > :43:18.it coming out? It is now at the London Film Festival and nationwide
:43:18. > :43:21.on 9th November. Thank you for having the.
:43:22. > :43:24.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because it's
:43:24. > :43:30.Batter-a-Burgler night at Annabel's. And Michael finally gets to show
:43:30. > :43:33.everyone his grossly disproportionate cha-cha. But we
:43:33. > :43:37.leave you tonight with our Prime Minister, who was accidentally-on-
:43:37. > :43:39.purpose filmed this week, with his limo hiding round the corner and