:00:22. > :00:27.Tonight This Week goes into Not quite a mission to the edge of
:00:27. > :00:32.space, but is the Prime Minister taking a risk with the United
:00:32. > :00:35.Kingdom, by agreeing a referendum on Scottish independence.
:00:35. > :00:39.Tommy Sheridan knows a thing or two about risky business. David
:00:39. > :00:44.Cameron's plans to keep the UK together are going to go into
:00:44. > :00:50.freefall over the next two years and he is going to have a bumpy
:00:50. > :00:56.landing when Scotland votes for independence.
:00:56. > :01:02.And the big balloon debate, jumping out is one thing, but is it time
:01:02. > :01:07.for the Chief Whip, Andrew Mitchell to be thrown out
:01:07. > :01:16.John Pienaar is mixing his metaphors in the kitchen.
:01:16. > :01:20.How is Cameron handling the heat in the kich kitchen? And is David
:01:20. > :01:28.Cameron risking a taunt of abuse by joining Twitter or are our
:01:28. > :01:31.politicians behind the times when it comes to selling their message.
:01:31. > :01:34.Alastair Campbell thinks politicians don't know know which
:01:34. > :01:37.way is up. The social media revolution is here,
:01:37. > :01:47.and it is real and it is not going away and the politicians have got
:01:47. > :01:56.to get with it. Rapper Sway is floating down into
:01:56. > :02:00.Into the the This Week Studio. 90,000 followers and more. Beat
:02:00. > :02:04.that Andrew. Good evening. Welcome to This Week,
:02:04. > :02:09.the headless and legless chicken of BBC current affairs and believe me,
:02:09. > :02:15.there are many shows vying for that title. Aren't there? Yes, you know
:02:15. > :02:17.who you are. After three weeks of over choreographed party
:02:17. > :02:21.conferences you try saying that at this time of night, we are back
:02:21. > :02:27.into the swing of things at Westminster. With our very first
:02:27. > :02:29.omnishambles of the new Parliamentary year.
:02:29. > :02:33.CHEERING Yes, everything was looking so easy
:02:33. > :02:39.this week. Unemployment down and inflation down. Retail sales up.
:02:39. > :02:47.And Vince Cable under house arrest, what bliss it was to be a Tory in
:02:47. > :02:50.coalition Government! Cue Call me Dave to step in and to commit the
:02:50. > :02:55.Government to ordering electricity companies to giving us the lowest
:02:55. > :03:00.energy tariff available. To say this came as a surprise would be an
:03:00. > :03:05.under statement, especially to the Department of Energy who was more
:03:05. > :03:11.in the dark about it all than it was about the three-day week, I am
:03:11. > :03:19.joined by two men whose combined sexual energy is enough to power a
:03:19. > :03:29.fully loaded milk float! Well, maybe not that much. The nuclear
:03:29. > :03:30.
:03:30. > :03:35.disaster and reactor of late night TV and Michael Portillo. Your
:03:35. > :03:38.moment of the week, Michael? Well, as the euro continues to come under
:03:38. > :03:42.strain. There are those who say the thing to do is create a political
:03:42. > :03:47.and economic union and they say that as though it was easy to do.
:03:47. > :03:51.Actually it would be much more complicated than building a single
:03:51. > :03:54.currency. A first step might be to put the banks into one European
:03:54. > :04:01.supervision, but the Germans today said they don't want to have their
:04:01. > :04:05.banks... They don't want the State banks. Another thing to do might be
:04:05. > :04:09.to have a eurozone veto on excessive budgets in different
:04:09. > :04:13.countries, but the French said they don't want to have a veto.
:04:13. > :04:17.So at the first step towards this terrific objective of European
:04:17. > :04:27.Union, either the Germans or the French used their veto which leaves
:04:27. > :04:27.
:04:28. > :04:34.us with the alternative which is that the euro will fall apart.
:04:34. > :04:39.You must be very disappointed it is going badly! Alistair, your moment?
:04:39. > :04:41.The moment I spent imagining the heads shaking inside Number Ten and
:04:41. > :04:46.the Department of Energy and Climate Change when David Cameron
:04:46. > :04:50.announced a policy that he cannot announce and just I just cannot
:04:50. > :04:54.fath hom how he can be in that position position where he
:04:54. > :05:02.announces something which he must know he cannot do.
:05:02. > :05:05.He began by saying, "I can announce today.". How often have we seen
:05:05. > :05:08.this as Prime Minister's Questions? There is this idea that he is
:05:08. > :05:11.making it up as he goes along, Michael.
:05:11. > :05:15.We are in the delicious situation where the Conservatives are calling
:05:15. > :05:18.for a State administer, price intervention by the State and
:05:18. > :05:21.Labour is calling for more competition? Hold on, what was
:05:21. > :05:25.interesting about the statement today, they had to dance around
:05:25. > :05:30.what Cameron said because they can't possibly sustain it.
:05:30. > :05:35.Right, speaking of Call me Dave, he bought a return ticket to Edinburgh
:05:35. > :05:41.this week and signed up Scotland to a referendum and independence.
:05:41. > :05:47.First Minister, Alex Salmond has as much chance of living the dream as
:05:47. > :05:57.as Scotland have of winning the World Cup! The vote isn't for a New
:05:57. > :06:07.Year and who know what is wee Jimmy and Jemima Cranky will be thinking.
:06:07. > :06:08.
:06:08. > :06:11.Here is Tommy Sheridan. This is his You know in two years time, the
:06:11. > :06:16.people of Scotland are going to have their democratic right to vote
:06:16. > :06:21.for independence. The pundits in Westminster and the political
:06:21. > :06:29.allies of Britain have written us off. We think they are in for a
:06:29. > :06:34.shock. Mr Cameron and his clan have been
:06:34. > :06:38.forced into a referendum on Scotland's future. They think they
:06:38. > :06:47.can win it, but I think he is going to o to go down as the Prime
:06:47. > :06:51.Minister that lost the Union. Because Mr Cameron screwed over the
:06:51. > :07:01.Liberal Democrats with the referendum on voting reform and I
:07:01. > :07:11.think he thinks ebb screw over the -- he can screw over the Scots. We
:07:11. > :07:21.
:07:21. > :07:26.are a canny bunch and we are fed up Like a lot of socialists in
:07:26. > :07:31.Scotland, I wasn't always for independence, but the British road
:07:31. > :07:35.to socialism is unfortunately further off the agenda than ever
:07:35. > :07:40.now and more and more people in Scotland realise if they want a
:07:40. > :07:44.fairer, for equitable country it is going to be as an independent
:07:44. > :07:52.country and that's why in two years I think more and more people are
:07:52. > :07:56.going to embrace that change. Over the last decade the people of
:07:56. > :08:00.Scotland have voted for patients that reject privatisation of our
:08:00. > :08:07.public services. That support a publicly owned National Health
:08:07. > :08:11.Service. That object to nuclear weapons. That's why over this next
:08:11. > :08:17.two years, as the arguments unfold more and more Scots will realise if
:08:17. > :08:25.they want a better and a fairer Scotland, they are going to have to
:08:25. > :08:31.vote for independence in 2014. Despite Scotland's unparalleled
:08:31. > :08:40.contribution to science, literature, we are often cast by the
:08:40. > :08:44.southerners as nothing more than what gas munching -- hagas munching
:08:44. > :08:54.kilt wearing ba bareians, I tell you what, we might just surprise
:08:54. > :08:56.
:08:56. > :09:02.you in two years time in more ways What a horrible sight.
:09:02. > :09:08.It is just as well we are after the watershed! Tommy Sheridan there. He
:09:08. > :09:11.joins us now in Westminster. Highlander. The staff were pleasant
:09:11. > :09:15.and helpful. I am sure they were. What will
:09:15. > :09:19.happen between now and 2014 to make a majority of Scots vote for
:09:19. > :09:25.independence? Well, there is going to be hopefully a mature debate,
:09:25. > :09:29.Andrew. There will be less of the simpleised mudslinging that you are
:09:29. > :09:35.not big enough, you are not strong enough and not intelligent enough
:09:35. > :09:38.to stand on your two feet and more arguments about whether we can
:09:38. > :09:42.maybe Scotland a better place, when the arguments are heard, people
:09:42. > :09:47.will be convinced there is two political agendas, there is the
:09:47. > :09:53.agenda which is Westminster-led which is privatisation, more and
:09:53. > :09:56.more selling off of the family silver and in Scotland, we are
:09:56. > :10:01.becoming a different country anyway because we voted for parties that
:10:01. > :10:04.want to protect our Health Service, we voted for parties that are
:10:04. > :10:09.opposed to nuclear weapons and illegal wars. Scotland is becoming
:10:09. > :10:13.more and more different and as the arguments are heard more and more
:10:13. > :10:17.people will say, "Hey, I think it is time for change." Particularly
:10:17. > :10:22.among young people. The polls don't bear that out. The
:10:22. > :10:26.polls don't tell you what is going to happen in two years time. But we
:10:26. > :10:32.have been having this debate in Scotland since the 1970s and the
:10:32. > :10:39.percentage of people who want independence does not change?
:10:39. > :10:44.I don't agree with you... Well, the stakes are around 23%. Well, people
:10:44. > :10:48.like me who were involved in the Labour Party for many years and the
:10:48. > :10:52.Labour movement, then around about the 80s and the likes of Tony Benn
:10:52. > :10:58.a man of great principle, we thought there is a British road to
:10:58. > :11:01.social justice justice. There is a British road to socialism. Just
:11:01. > :11:05.frankly after Alistair's friend Tony took over the Labour Party and
:11:05. > :11:12.expelled clause four from it, there was no prospect of a British road
:11:12. > :11:17.to socialism and more and more people realised if you really want
:11:17. > :11:22.a more equitable campaign. Is that what Alex Salmond is
:11:22. > :11:25.campaigning for? Me and Alex will have a difference of... What is the
:11:25. > :11:27.Scotland that is going to be after ap referendum if you win?
:11:27. > :11:31.people of Scotland will decide, Alistair.
:11:31. > :11:34.They have to decide beforehand. Your vision of what independence
:11:34. > :11:37.will lead to is different to his. You want The Queen out of the way.
:11:37. > :11:41.You want the pound out of the way. You want NATO out of the way.
:11:41. > :11:44.Here. Here. He is saying you are getting none
:11:44. > :11:47.of that. The Scottish people, the reason why the polls are going down
:11:47. > :11:51.this week is because the Scottish people are starting to realise
:11:51. > :11:54.actually this is vote for anything and now that you are having to
:11:54. > :11:59.answer serious questions, you are not going to, you get the right
:11:59. > :12:04.answers, you have been banging on about the pound pound, for example.
:12:04. > :12:07.What Alex and I agree on is the people of Scotland should decide
:12:07. > :12:11.what an independent Scotland should look like. Me, I want a republic.
:12:11. > :12:17.Me, I want us out of NATO. I don't think we should be in the European
:12:17. > :12:22.Union. Your agenda can never win for the
:12:23. > :12:27.Labour Party. We will be able to argue in 2016 for that type of sort
:12:27. > :12:30.of a mixed market type of approach. I will be able to argue for a
:12:30. > :12:34.socialist approach. The most important thing is the people of
:12:34. > :12:40.Scotland will decide for themselves because we are big enough and
:12:40. > :12:46.mature enough. Let me bring in our Spanish person
:12:46. > :12:49.here. You are a fan of Alex Salmond. Whose side are you on here? Well, I
:12:49. > :12:54.think Alex Salmond is not to be under estimated. It is not
:12:54. > :12:59.impossible that he could per persuade the Scottish people. The
:12:59. > :13:05.absence of a substantial figure in any other party who made his or her
:13:05. > :13:10.career in Scotland is a big problem, alhee alAlistair Darling is going
:13:10. > :13:15.to lead the unionist campaign, he chose to lead his career outside of
:13:15. > :13:20.Scotland. The irony is if Scotland does achieve independence, it is
:13:20. > :13:24.the thing that will save Scotland from socialism because socialism is
:13:24. > :13:29.only made possible on the fantastic scale in which it is applied in
:13:29. > :13:35.Scotland today by English subsidy. Only 12% of Scots pay more in than
:13:35. > :13:38.they take out. If Scotland was on its own, Scotland would have to
:13:38. > :13:47.become a Celtic Tiger. Would have to become a low tax economy and do
:13:47. > :13:57.what Ireland did before and half of Alex Salmond knows that. So... I
:13:57. > :13:59.
:13:59. > :14:06.teeter on being the brink of a Tory Scottish Nationalist.
:14:06. > :14:12.Go to the Better Together Campaign. We welcome the support for status
:14:12. > :14:16.quo. Your quigs are re-- figures are ridiculous in relation to the
:14:16. > :14:20.12% and don't count public sector workers. Thousands and and
:14:20. > :14:26.thousands of public sector workers who pay tax and you just exclude
:14:26. > :14:31.them. The truth is Scotland is sustainable as a mixed market,
:14:31. > :14:35.small country economy. I think it is also sustainable as a socialist
:14:35. > :14:41.economy because I think we could publicly own our oil and publicly
:14:41. > :14:46.own our electricity and gas could publicly own our railways. That's
:14:46. > :14:51.the model that we should pursue. want to ask you this. Putting aside
:14:51. > :14:54.your views of why you want independence, will it be decided on
:14:54. > :15:04.whether or not Scots think they would be better off if they leave
:15:04. > :15:07.
:15:07. > :15:10.I think that's part of it. Alex Salmond is a canny politician. All
:15:10. > :15:14.the polls you talk about, they are predicting a Labour victory in the
:15:14. > :15:18.Scottish Parliament elections. What happened was the SNP didn't just
:15:18. > :15:22.win, they won an overall majority, that wasn't supposed to happen at
:15:22. > :15:26.all under the Scotland Act. I would be very, very careful about
:15:26. > :15:29.overplaying the polls. What I think will happen over the next two years
:15:29. > :15:35.which will persuade Scots to vote for independence is the British
:15:35. > :15:38.economy is going into a nose-dive, more and more Public Services will
:15:38. > :15:41.be slashed in order to feed the austerity programme and more and
:15:41. > :15:44.more Scots will be saying to themselves, this mob are saying
:15:44. > :15:48.we'll be worse off if we go for independence, but how much worse
:15:48. > :15:52.off can we be, we are in a mess just now. Is it all economics,
:15:52. > :15:56.Alastair, or was there a renaissance of Britishness during
:15:56. > :15:59.the Olympics, which includes the Scots who won the medals. It was
:15:59. > :16:03.Alex Salmond's nightmare to see them in the Union Flag. It could be
:16:03. > :16:07.more than just economics. Is there life many the old dog yet of
:16:07. > :16:10.Britishness? Yes, I think there is. I certainly think ultimately people
:16:10. > :16:12.will decide whether it's better for them and their families and the
:16:12. > :16:16.economics of that will be very important. It's good that Alistair
:16:16. > :16:20.Darling is leading the campaign because he'll tear the arguments
:16:20. > :16:24.apart, some of them. Emotion does play a big part in this. But I
:16:24. > :16:29.think that the reason - I know why Salmond's decided to play it long -
:16:29. > :16:32.but I think two years is a long time for Tommy to promote one
:16:32. > :16:37.vision of an independent Scotland, Salmond to do another. There's a
:16:37. > :16:41.Tory businessman out this week saying he supports it because he
:16:41. > :16:44.thinks Scotland will back a tax haven like Switzerland. The public
:16:44. > :16:51.will get confused and Tommy's point about the economy and you say going
:16:51. > :16:56.to a nose-dive, I think people will feel reluctant to go it alone when
:16:56. > :16:59.you have had Alex Salmond saying we are going to be Ireland and Iceland
:16:59. > :17:03.and Norway, he never says we are going to be Scotland economically
:17:03. > :17:07.independent and you don't want the pound being set by the Bank of The
:17:07. > :17:10.detested England do you, but he now does and it's confusing as to what
:17:10. > :17:14.you are all saying. It's interesting, you hear all this talk
:17:14. > :17:18.about the countries going into nose-dive and Iceland and Ireland.
:17:18. > :17:20.Iceland has used it to its advantage, it's rewritten its
:17:20. > :17:26.constitution, it's began to rediscover Public Services and it's
:17:26. > :17:30.putting some bankers who caused the problem into geo which is great.
:17:30. > :17:35.How many countries in the world now aren't bankrupt? America is
:17:35. > :17:38.bankrupt, the most powerful nation on the earth and it's bankrupt. So
:17:38. > :17:41.this idea that you somehow can't stand on your own two feet because
:17:41. > :17:44.of the economic problems is nonsense. What will happen more and
:17:44. > :17:48.more is people are going to realise, wait a wee minute, if you look at
:17:48. > :17:52.what's happening in Westminster, they are privatising the Health
:17:52. > :17:57.Service, we in Scotland want to retain a public Health Service and
:17:57. > :18:01.Public Services. The only way to do that is to vote for independence.
:18:01. > :18:05.Holyrood already controls the Health Service so why do you need
:18:05. > :18:09.independence? Because Westminster is cutting the block grant to try
:18:09. > :18:14.and force the Scottish Parliament to implement cuts which will
:18:14. > :18:18.undermine our Health Service. We are out of time! Excuse me, I
:18:18. > :18:24.want to ask you - everything runs out - we've run out of tiefplt yes
:18:24. > :18:29.or no, will Scotland vote for independence? No. No. You will say
:18:29. > :18:35.yes? Absolutely. Run out of time. Tommy Sheridan, thank you for being
:18:35. > :18:39.with us. It's late, past yours and our bedtime. Grab a torch and spade
:18:39. > :18:49.and go and dig up Jimmy Savile's grave or stick with us as we dig
:18:49. > :18:51.
:18:51. > :18:56.ourselves into a political hole - we probably just did with that joke.
:18:56. > :19:00.Call me Dave is still refusing to divulge his personal e-mails and
:19:00. > :19:04.texts to Rebekah Brooks, wouldn't we like to see those, we believe in
:19:04. > :19:09.full disclosure, so if you want to engage with the adult mind of the
:19:09. > :19:13.average Blue Nun drinker, you can do so on the Twitter or the tax
:19:13. > :19:16.free Fleecebook and the good old interweb. Now, it's been a week of
:19:16. > :19:21.hydra that and nail-biting competition. That's just the Great
:19:21. > :19:25.British Bake Off final! We don't really want to see too much of
:19:25. > :19:29.Alastair's crust and nothing of Michael's soggy bottom, but we have
:19:29. > :19:33.been glueed to the warm and friendly contest, we have hardly
:19:33. > :19:37.had a chance to check on the highs and lows of Westminster. We turned
:19:38. > :19:47.to an expert and turned to Five Live's John Pienaar to see what's
:19:48. > :19:58.
:19:58. > :20:03.I love this show. Don't you? It's like the Olympics, except welcome
:20:03. > :20:07.all join in, if only you could cook. Genuinely nice people in fierce
:20:07. > :20:12.competition, just like Westminster. Watch this. What a moment to be
:20:12. > :20:18.whipping up - thank you very much - get on with it you (BLEEP) pleb,
:20:18. > :20:22.you best know your (BLEEP) place, who wrote this, Gordon Ramsay, no,
:20:22. > :20:25.it's the Chief Whip who's in trouble, he'd be in worse trouble,
:20:25. > :20:31.except David Cameron won't let anyone pit his kitchen Cabinet. Ed
:20:31. > :20:35.Miliband did his best to stir it up a bit by goading Cameron to sack
:20:35. > :20:42.the Chief Whip. According to the official police report and I quote
:20:42. > :20:49."A man claiming to be the Chief Whip called the police plebs, told
:20:49. > :20:55.them they should know their place and use other abusive language --
:20:56. > :20:59.used other offensive language.". Did the Chief Whip use those words?
:20:59. > :21:03.What he did and said was wrong and he should apologise. Good to see
:21:04. > :21:07.the Cabinet in their place supporting him in public but in the
:21:07. > :21:11.newspapers, what are they saying in private. His position is untenable,
:21:11. > :21:16.in other words, he's toast. He may be toast, but it looks like he's
:21:16. > :21:23.got stuck in the toaster. The MPs that Andrew Mitchell is meant to be
:21:23. > :21:28.keeping in line know he's left a bad taste in the public's mouth.
:21:29. > :21:32.And drew Mitchell - but losing him now would be like giving the game
:21:32. > :21:37.to Labour and the Police Federation -- Andrew Mitchell. Like James in
:21:37. > :21:47.the Bake Off final with his disastrous chiffon cake, Andrew
:21:47. > :21:49.
:21:49. > :21:55.Mitchell can't win. Ah, Scottish dumplings, Welsh rare
:21:55. > :22:00.bit, Ulster breakfast and English tea. Two years from now, shortbred
:22:00. > :22:05.from Scotland could be a foreign delicacy. Don't underestimate Alex
:22:05. > :22:08.Salmond, he's a MasterChef champion in a kitchen. One in-out question
:22:08. > :22:12.in the Scottish referendum and mark that down to David Cameron. The
:22:12. > :22:14.nationalists have two years to turn around the polls and 16 and 17-
:22:14. > :22:22.year-olds are supposed to be getting the votes. Now that is one
:22:22. > :22:27.for the old MasterChef of the SNP, to work with! I used to have in my
:22:27. > :22:30.notes which no doubt came from the special advisers saying, do not
:22:30. > :22:38.look triumphalist, so in this press conference, I'm doing my absolute
:22:38. > :22:41.best not to look triumphalist. You want to be the Prime Minister
:22:41. > :22:45.that keeps the United Kingdom together, but I believe in showing
:22:45. > :22:48.respect to people in Scotland, the people of Scotland voted for a
:22:48. > :22:52.party that wanted to have a referendum on independence. I've
:22:52. > :22:57.made sure, showing them respect, that we can have that referendum.
:22:57. > :23:00.They are not rising, you know, they are not rising. A lot rests on this.
:23:00. > :23:05.The shape of the British economy, balance of political power across
:23:05. > :23:08.England and Wales, the future of the union, David Cameron is a
:23:08. > :23:11.committed unionist, but Labour stands to lose most if all those
:23:11. > :23:19.Scottish seats melt away. It will probably come down in the end to
:23:19. > :23:22.where the Scots feel better off. All of this looks simple compared
:23:22. > :23:27.to finding out how and why Jimmy Savile got away with what he did.
:23:27. > :23:30.The BBC, hospitals, the police. There's a long list of institutions
:23:30. > :23:34.in the frame and an even longer list of inquiries to say nothing of
:23:34. > :23:40.the attitudes of past decades. Ed Miliband wanted more.
:23:40. > :23:45.These are horrific allegations. Now, I think in order to do right by the
:23:45. > :23:50.victims, I don't think the BBC can lead their own inquiry. If politics,
:23:50. > :23:54.or for that matter the Bake Off was a popularity contest, Theresa May
:23:54. > :23:58.would have it sorted out hot on a tray, especially with the Tory
:23:58. > :24:04.right-wing. They loved her announcement about repatriating
:24:04. > :24:07.powers over justice. We will opt out of all pre-Lisbon police and
:24:07. > :24:11.criminal justice and then negotiate with the commission and other
:24:11. > :24:15.member states to opt back into those individual measures which it
:24:15. > :24:19.is our national interest to rejoin. If that wasn't sweet enough, there
:24:19. > :24:23.was the announcement finally about the expedition of Gary McKinnon,
:24:23. > :24:28.what a mess! The Americans wanted him back there to face trial for
:24:28. > :24:33.hacking into Pentagon and defence department compute,, an independent
:24:34. > :24:37.report found that the expedition -- extradition system was fair, much
:24:37. > :24:42.of Fleet Street asked Theresa May to stand up to the pushy powers of
:24:42. > :24:47.Washington. What to do? Sometimes the discreet, the wise, the
:24:47. > :24:51.politically astute move is to serve up something sweet.
:24:51. > :24:59.I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such
:24:59. > :25:03.a high risk of him ending his life that a decision to extradite would
:25:03. > :25:06.be incompatible with his human rights. I have therefore withdrawn
:25:06. > :25:11.the extradition order against Mr McKinnon. The US were perfectly
:25:11. > :25:15.within their rights and it was reasonable of them to seek his ex
:25:15. > :25:20.tradition. We do not know whether Gary McKinnon will ever have to
:25:21. > :25:24.face justice. Bakers, that is it, that's time. I
:25:24. > :25:30.mean it. Keeping ahead of the competition is about style, as much
:25:30. > :25:33.as substance, making every litling thing go as far as possible.
:25:33. > :25:38.This week's fall in unemployment took some of the edge off Labour's
:25:38. > :25:44.attack. What do you think? really does look stunning. We have
:25:44. > :25:54.a lovely shine on top. Should be praised for the look of it. Very
:25:54. > :25:54.
:25:54. > :26:04.professional. Well done. Thank you, Mary. Still, all's fair in love,
:26:04. > :26:04.
:26:04. > :26:07.war and baking. Maybe a bit of salt in the sugar bowl.
:26:07. > :26:11.That was John Pienaar, with You Make A Cake in Wandsworth. He
:26:11. > :26:14.brought the cakes back and we've been eating them today. Miranda
:26:14. > :26:19.Green, good to see you. Do the Liberal Democrats care whether the
:26:19. > :26:24.Chief Whip stays or goes? I think it's a bit of an awful distraction
:26:24. > :26:27.for the Government. As John was saying in his film, you have the
:26:27. > :26:32.awkward situation where the more the Labour Party call for him to go,
:26:32. > :26:39.the more David Cameron's forced to hold on to him against his better
:26:39. > :26:42.judgment one hopes. Do their care? We, -- well, you know, anything
:26:42. > :26:46.that distracts from what the Government's trying to do, you have
:26:46. > :26:50.a whole conference season, if you are back to this again it's not
:26:50. > :26:53.great. It's remarkable how to story's going. Forget the rights
:26:53. > :26:57.and wrongs, if you were in your old jb and the Prime Minister was in
:26:57. > :27:04.this position, wouldn't you be telling him, don't sacrifice him
:27:04. > :27:09.and give the media or the opposition a scalp? It's got to the
:27:09. > :27:12.stage where everyone's got a say in this, they've had a say, David
:27:12. > :27:16.Cameron has, the police have and Ed Miliband has. I thought when the
:27:16. > :27:19.police were in his constituency, I felt they were pushing it too far,
:27:19. > :27:27.I felt, and it strives me that David Cameron is not going to get
:27:27. > :27:30.rid of him, so unless anything new emerges, I suspect it won't go away.
:27:30. > :27:34.The big problem is when the police are off side. If there's one group
:27:34. > :27:39.of people you really don't want off side for a long time it's the
:27:39. > :27:42.police. The police or the Police Federation? It's the police. The
:27:42. > :27:45.Olympics, when I was there one dairbgs I was amazed at this
:27:45. > :27:47.policeman who I never met in my life before and he said to me,
:27:47. > :27:51.there are things about the Government that you would not
:27:51. > :27:54.believe and he was saying things I cannot say tonight about pensions,
:27:54. > :27:59.conditions, about a sense that they are not respected by the Government.
:27:59. > :28:04.I think that's kind of out there with the police and this is just
:28:04. > :28:08.underlining that. Of course, in a politically very toxic kind of way.
:28:08. > :28:11.For Labour, it's the gift that keeps on giving. Perfectly
:28:11. > :28:15.understandable Labour's going the right thing. That's what
:28:15. > :28:19.oppositions do. The media sees a story, it won't give up and it
:28:19. > :28:22.resonates, we see everything through a glass prism in Britain.
:28:22. > :28:27.This is a perfect story for it. I suggest the story wouldn't have the
:28:27. > :28:31.legs it's got if his own side weren't so disloyal about him too.
:28:31. > :28:35.He has very few friend on the Tory side in That's right. There was a
:28:35. > :28:39.briefing about it at the Party Conference. At a meeting this week
:28:39. > :28:42.at Conservative backbenchers, the meeting was obviously well
:28:42. > :28:46.orchestrated. Four MPs spoke against him and a large number
:28:46. > :28:49.spoke in favour of him. I think that's also now out of the way. I
:28:49. > :28:53.agree with Alastair, everybody's had their say, the people's not
:28:53. > :28:59.going to get rid of him. We'll move on to something more important -
:28:59. > :29:05.Europe. Miranda, let's replease recently, Mr Gove talking about
:29:05. > :29:09.life outside the EU unless the Europeans give us back lots of our
:29:09. > :29:13.powers, it's David Cameron saying but not implying I'll give you a
:29:13. > :29:17.referendum. The Government policy or Conservative side to opt out of
:29:17. > :29:21.EU measures on law and order and others. What is your party making
:29:21. > :29:25.on all of this? Clearly those are not positions that are Liberal
:29:25. > :29:31.Democrat positions, are they. I worked out. Jolly good. That's
:29:31. > :29:36.why they pay you the big bucks. They do?! I think what it seems to
:29:36. > :29:39.me is that this is the moment when fear of UKIP in the Tory party
:29:39. > :29:44.starts to effect the British national interest. I don't see how
:29:44. > :29:48.you can look at this proposition on opting out of EU justice powers and
:29:48. > :29:54.take it seriously. You are talking about people smuggling, drug
:29:54. > :29:57.trafficking, money laundering, fraud, all the things on which we
:29:57. > :30:01.really rely, like anti-terrorism. Today we are reminded that the
:30:01. > :30:07.number of children, sex slaves et cetera being trafficked into this
:30:07. > :30:11.country is rising. We need these powers. How do you do it? You have
:30:11. > :30:15.to fight terrible rear guard actions within the coalition don't
:30:15. > :30:20.you. One thing I believe Nick Clegg and David Cameron agree on is the
:30:20. > :30:27.desirability of trying to keep the financial contributions to the EU
:30:27. > :30:31.ch U budget down. Anything else? They agree on the other EU policies,
:30:31. > :30:35.but how you should negotiate from within the EU. You have to be in
:30:35. > :30:38.there arguing your case inside. With the exception of Ken Clarke,
:30:38. > :30:42.the Tories in Parliament are a wholly Euro-Sceptic party and if
:30:43. > :30:47.anything they are more than that, Mr David Cameron's under huge
:30:47. > :30:55.pressure and he doesn't quite know what to do, I would suggest, which
:30:55. > :31:00.is why kind of words like a fresh mandate, not saying referendum,,
:31:00. > :31:07.but what does he do? The Cabinet is Euro-Sceptic to a man, with the
:31:07. > :31:11.exception of Ken Clarke, but that's not the same as saying they want to
:31:11. > :31:14.leave the European Union. This lot are not going to give the British
:31:14. > :31:17.public a vote on saying in or out. They'll stir things up, hinting
:31:17. > :31:21.that there might be a referendum and they might put their foot down.
:31:21. > :31:24.Where does that lead to? It will lead to another lot of
:31:24. > :31:30.disappointment because people are not going to get a referendum any
:31:30. > :31:36.time soon. By that, I mean, the con's position is we can't have a
:31:36. > :31:41.referendum until the eurozone issue's settled down -- Cameron.
:31:41. > :31:45.Way through the next election? the decade I don't think. It will
:31:45. > :31:49.be postponed. It takes you to the strategic question, is David
:31:49. > :31:52.Cameron about positioning the party on the middle ground which is the
:31:52. > :31:56.point at which he won the leadership of the Conservative
:31:56. > :32:02.Party. And his speech suggested he wants to be. Or is he now, not only
:32:02. > :32:07.with the euro thing, but also with the burglars charter, appealing for
:32:07. > :32:15.the vote on the right. You might say he's trying to do both, but
:32:15. > :32:23.actually, the signal is confused. What should Labour do on the Europe
:32:23. > :32:30.issue? They must be sensible. must be some voices saying, "We
:32:30. > :32:36.could scorch the Tories." My worry about Cameron, he is stumbling
:32:36. > :32:43.along. To have Michael Gove saying that he doesn't mind if we come out
:32:43. > :32:47.of Europe and for there to be no pence of sush -- Spence of push
:32:47. > :32:52.back back -- sense of push back from Cameron.
:32:52. > :32:59.It was done through a special advisor. Wouldn't you all be like
:32:59. > :33:03.headless chickens in 2014 if UKIP come first and your lot come fifth?
:33:03. > :33:08.You have to with stand it. This is right. You have to keep
:33:08. > :33:13.arguing for what you think is in the the national interests.
:33:13. > :33:18.That's not going to happen. Greens have won in the European
:33:18. > :33:23.elections before. Yes, you may sacrifice 4% of the
:33:23. > :33:29.national vote to UKIP in a general election, but it is important to go
:33:29. > :33:35.for 10 or 15% in the middle ground of politics.
:33:35. > :33:39.My hope is Cameron, he is there there long enough to know he has to
:33:39. > :33:43.do a lot of work at that level with the other leaders and the idea of
:33:43. > :33:47.Britain being out of that is catastrophic.
:33:47. > :33:53.The voice of moderation is William Hague. He has gone native in the
:33:53. > :33:59.Foreign Office and the Tory Euro- sceptics are furious. Is Theresa
:33:59. > :34:06.May in danger of becoming a descent Home Secretary? She has shown great
:34:06. > :34:11.resilience. We have been using the word, "Under estimating." I thought
:34:11. > :34:15.the decision on McKinnon was wrong. It is terrible to see a politician
:34:15. > :34:20.trying to decide an issue about that. It was another hit with the
:34:20. > :34:28.Conservative Party. Miranda, good to see you again.
:34:28. > :34:34.It is not so long since Call me Dave declared too many he tweets
:34:34. > :34:42.make a twit. The Prime Minister's U-turn on Twitter makes him very
:34:42. > :34:46.much part of the twit gang. Hey, Call me Dave, welcome. We are all
:34:46. > :34:52.twits here. The way politicians get their message across is changing.
:34:52. > :34:56.Not everyone is keeping up! No names! We asked a man with far
:34:56. > :35:01.too much time on his hands, Alastair Campbell to give us 140
:35:01. > :35:11.reasons why politicians need to get with it. We put political
:35:11. > :35:14.
:35:14. > :35:20.# I'm in with the in crowd # I go with the in crowd #
:35:20. > :35:23.David Cameron has joined the Twitter revolution swi not a bad
:35:23. > :35:28.move because now there are ten million people in Britain on
:35:28. > :35:32.Twitter and just nine people reading a newspaper every day.
:35:32. > :35:39.The only thing is I am not sure that he really gets it. I looked at
:35:39. > :35:42.his account, he follows 35 people on Twitter 32 Tory MP, one Tory MSP,
:35:42. > :35:45.one Tory mayor, we can guess who that is, and the official Tory
:35:45. > :35:50.account! It is not really what Twitter is about!
:35:50. > :35:54.What it is about, is genuine engagement, not the political
:35:54. > :35:57.leaders talking to the plebs, but genuine interaction between
:35:57. > :36:00.politician and public. And what it means for the politicians is you
:36:00. > :36:04.have got to let go of control and this is a control freak speaking
:36:04. > :36:09.here! You can't control where the message lands. You can only control
:36:09. > :36:13.what you say and what you do. As to where it goes, it can go anywhere.
:36:13. > :36:18.The truth is that none of the parties in Britain have used social
:36:18. > :36:21.media very well. But They are going to have to. It was a big factor in
:36:21. > :36:26.the Arab Spring. It is huge in the current American presidential
:36:26. > :36:32.election and the chances are the 2015 election campaign in the UK
:36:32. > :36:37.will be the first genuine social media election. That was Alastair
:36:37. > :36:41.Campbell there and there is two of them. We cloned him. He he is still
:36:41. > :36:46.here. Sway. Welcome. Good to see you sir.
:36:46. > :36:50.Tell us how important social media is for you? I think social media is
:36:50. > :36:55.a great thing. It allows me to engage with the fans. It allows me
:36:55. > :36:59.to find out what they like about my music. It helps me know the
:36:59. > :37:04.direction of the kind of campaigns I should be going on and it reveals
:37:04. > :37:08.to me the kind of areas around the world that are into my music and
:37:08. > :37:15.where I should be touring. Would it be true to say it is not
:37:15. > :37:21.just a hobby or a luxury, it is an essential part of zg what you do --
:37:21. > :37:25.part of doing what you do? My my Twitter followers, I have been
:37:25. > :37:29.fortunate to have loyal followers and intelligent followers who give
:37:29. > :37:34.me genuine feedback about my music and I wake up in the morning, I say
:37:34. > :37:38.a prayer, I might speak to a friend and gi to Twit -- and I go to
:37:38. > :37:42.Twitter. To catch up what they have been
:37:42. > :37:46.saying and doing overnight? They give me so much positive energy
:37:46. > :37:50.about my music that if I get like a positive phrase from somewhere, I
:37:50. > :37:52.like to tweet that. People retweet it. It builds up a good
:37:52. > :37:57.communication. It is a generational thing. There
:37:58. > :38:02.is a generation now coming up which has known nothing but social media.
:38:02. > :38:06.For them it is like falling off a log. It is difficult particularly
:38:06. > :38:13.when politician are from an older generation to work out what it is
:38:13. > :38:18.about. He thinks, by that I mean Mr Portillo, he thinks that Twitter is
:38:18. > :38:25.a waste of time. Tell him why he is wrong. It might be a waste of time
:38:25. > :38:29.for Mr Portillo, but for me... There is a quicker way to
:38:29. > :38:34.communicate with 100,000 people, you know, from your phone then you
:38:34. > :38:39.know so be it, but I find Twitter to be nice for me.
:38:39. > :38:43.Michael? I think that Twitter does not change the attitude that people
:38:43. > :38:46.have to politicians so the Prime Minister tweeting, the Prime
:38:46. > :38:49.Minister is not going to be believed. The Prime Minister is not
:38:49. > :38:54.going to be liked anymore than he is believed or is liked when he
:38:54. > :38:57.chune kates from -- communicates through television. Most people's
:38:57. > :39:03.impression of television are still perceived through television
:39:03. > :39:09.because they don't ever meet the fella. I agree social media has an
:39:09. > :39:13.enormous secondary effect or a second-hand effect in politics so
:39:13. > :39:18.you make a gaffe and it goes on YouTube or is retweeted there is a
:39:18. > :39:20.huge echo, but the potential for someone in the position of the
:39:20. > :39:25.Prime Minister who is an established figure at a time when
:39:25. > :39:30.politicians don't enjoy a lot of trusts his -- trust, his
:39:30. > :39:36.communities are limited. Positive stuff gets retweeted.
:39:36. > :39:41.Barack Obama has 21 million followers. If he puts up a link and
:39:41. > :39:44.even if 10% have a read, that's going to get a bigger reach than
:39:44. > :39:47.him being on television. The thing about David Cameron, he thinks he
:39:47. > :39:52.has to be on television all the time and he keeps popping up on
:39:52. > :39:57.television in a non strategic way. This issue today. This issue
:39:57. > :40:01.tomorrow. Never joining it tomorrow. If you use Twitter properly and the
:40:01. > :40:05.public are good at working it out, I have 180,000 followers and John
:40:05. > :40:10.Prescott has lots of followers and both he and I use it in a similar
:40:10. > :40:17.way. Alex Salmond Has only got 27,000 followers and it is because
:40:17. > :40:20.it is just an extens of his press office and I think if you are, I
:40:20. > :40:25.know you are in a different position, if I was an elected
:40:25. > :40:30.politician now I would see Twitter in the way you do.
:40:30. > :40:35.People who want our vote are going to have to use social media? I have
:40:35. > :40:37.to disagree with you and say that like if the Prime Minister was to
:40:37. > :40:42.be tweeting more often, I don't follow the Prime Minister on
:40:42. > :40:47.Twitter, I don't know if he tweets often, but if he was to maybe
:40:47. > :40:51.people would see him for as a person as opposed to a political
:40:51. > :40:55.figure. Maybe if he tweeted what he was doing at the week, people could
:40:55. > :40:58.relate to him more as opposed to him about the law and different
:40:58. > :41:04.strategies of the country. People want to see a person and that's
:41:04. > :41:10.what makes Twitter so... Barack Obama tweeted a picture of a T-
:41:10. > :41:14.shirt somebody was wearing at within of his rallies. It was an
:41:14. > :41:18.interesting way. The T-shirt had a message and it got out there.
:41:19. > :41:23.Are you really saying that come the next election, I mean, don't forget
:41:23. > :41:26.there was a lot of talk about how important social media was going to
:41:26. > :41:33.be in the last election, in 2010? It was important.
:41:33. > :41:37.It was steam TV debates that dominated the electoral - are you
:41:37. > :41:40.going to say that social media is going to be more important in 2015
:41:40. > :41:43.than the national press and network TV? They are coming together as
:41:43. > :41:50.part of the same thing. You take the American presidential debate.
:41:50. > :41:57.The first one, 10.3 million tweets during 90 minutes and when people
:41:57. > :42:02.said "Obama lost and Romney won." They did it based on what people
:42:02. > :42:07.were saying on Twitter. That's the new world of social
:42:07. > :42:12.media. It seizes to be a differential thing. Things come
:42:12. > :42:17.from on high and it is a two-way process and you are part - it is
:42:17. > :42:24.part of you getting words and ideas and people reacting? I found
:42:24. > :42:28.Alistair and Sway very persuasive and it has been an education.
:42:28. > :42:32.Are you going to go on Twitter? might!
:42:32. > :42:38.Result! We did it! Many, many people asked it.
:42:38. > :42:43.Follow me at Sway UK. If he doesn't follow you, we will
:42:43. > :42:50.have him followed by two Glaswegians!
:42:50. > :42:54.You wouldn't want that to happen. What are you up to, sway? I am
:42:54. > :42:58.working on my new single. It fe fures Mr Hudson -- features Mr
:42:58. > :43:01.Hudson. Make sure you follow me on Twitter.
:43:01. > :43:04.If I follow you, can I get your followers? I am sure they will
:43:04. > :43:13.follow you as well. You can keep the energy up. Are you into hip-hop
:43:13. > :43:22.yourself? Hip-hop, I invented it! Thanks for being with us. Good luck
:43:22. > :43:26.with the new single. That's your lot. It is swingers night at
:43:26. > :43:34.Annabel's and although Tommy cried off, the rest of us are looking
:43:34. > :43:38.forward to it. Michael brought his two foot loofer with him, no wonder
:43:38. > :43:42.Alistair is looking worried. We leave you with two men who are
:43:42. > :43:48.trying a little too hard to give the impression that they don't like
:43:48. > :43:55.each other! Nightie-night, don't let the presidential tension bite!
:43:55. > :44:05.# I have been waiting so long # I finally found someone