:00:26. > :00:36.As 007 hits the big screen, Week has a feast of beautiful women,
:00:36. > :00:37.
:00:37. > :00:42.fast cars and lots of action. As the baddie makes a comeback, the
:00:42. > :00:47.BBC and his Director-General are on the firing line. John Sergeant has
:00:48. > :00:56.the scandal in his sights. What is it about the BBC management that
:00:56. > :01:04.makes them so difficult to understand? As England's badgers
:01:04. > :01:08.live to die another day, does Her Majesty's Government believe that
:01:08. > :01:18.shambles are forever. Anne McElvoy spies an opportunity. Good evening,
:01:18. > :01:26.
:01:26. > :01:33.Mr Neil. A long way to go before While James Bond continues to have
:01:33. > :01:39.his quota of beautiful women, are other women not getting their fair
:01:39. > :01:45.share? Shappi Khorsandi talks press disand our inability to live and
:01:45. > :01:55.let live. I am not interested in being a Bond girl, but a Neil girl.
:01:55. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:07.Now you're talking! The name's Week - This Week. A
:02:07. > :02:13.Evening all. Welcome to This Week. Ringing the bell for political last
:02:13. > :02:18.orders in a final round of froth and innuendo, with wildly
:02:18. > :02:28.inaccurate Westminster predictions. Andrew Mitchell, safe as houses -
:02:28. > :02:29.
:02:29. > :02:36.yeah! And tasteless crimes against high fashion and common decency.
:02:36. > :02:40.We're not the only programme being accused of highly questionable
:02:40. > :02:44.editorial decisions. National creep, Jimmy Savile, the BBC has in time-
:02:44. > :02:49.honoured fashion got a firing squad and is pulling the trigger on
:02:49. > :02:53.itself. Panorama led the way on Monday w the typically robust
:02:53. > :02:58.allegation into Newsnight. Given the BBC's love of self-flagellation
:02:58. > :03:06.and the urge to purge, it was only the start. As we speak tonight,
:03:06. > :03:10.Blue Peter has launched an urgent investigation to Newsround. Homes
:03:10. > :03:16.Under The Hammer are investigating cash in if attic. I am leading a --
:03:16. > :03:21.Cash In The Attic. I am leading an investigation into my behaviour on
:03:21. > :03:26.the Sunday Politics. They are investigating why This Week dropped
:03:27. > :03:31.Diane Abbott from the sofa. There's no mystery about it - as always,
:03:31. > :03:37.with Diane, it was all about the Benjamins! Speaking of those, who
:03:37. > :03:41.are next in line to be droped in the preverbial by the Director-
:03:41. > :03:51.General, I am joined by a fraud and a fraudster, both living in total
:03:51. > :03:57.
:03:57. > :04:05.denial. Let's call them the Conrad Blacks - AJ Johnson and sad man on
:04:05. > :04:09.a train, Michael Cho-cho Portillo. A terrible week for the Government
:04:09. > :04:18.which made a mess of one thing after the other. All the flak moved
:04:18. > :04:24.on to the BBC. It would have been a good time for the Government to go
:04:24. > :04:27.quiet and all the preverbial what not hitting the fan. The Culture
:04:27. > :04:32.Secretary intervenes to remind the BBC there is a question of public
:04:32. > :04:39.trust. You would have thought that the BBC and public would not need
:04:39. > :04:43.reminding of what deep do--do the BBC found themselves in. Patten was
:04:43. > :04:45.able to write a fierce letter, saying the Government would not
:04:45. > :04:48.want to question the independenceance of the BBC. You
:04:48. > :04:52.wonder what it is about the Government that when it sees a
:04:52. > :04:57.clear run, when it sees an opportunity to stay out of the
:04:57. > :05:02.spotlight, stay out of the flying stuff, you know, it immediately
:05:02. > :05:08.inserts itself in the way of all the flying stuff. Very interesting.
:05:08. > :05:13.Alan, your moment? I hope you will explain why you have put these
:05:13. > :05:16.horrid ties on us! There's nothing wrong with my tie.
:05:16. > :05:19.It's rather posh! That's enough. There'll be a
:05:19. > :05:25.competition. Anyone in public life, who thinks
:05:25. > :05:31.you can go in front of a select committee without being briefed and
:05:31. > :05:35.without being rehearsed is in for a shock. My colleagues and Michael's
:05:35. > :05:39.ex-colleagues who are sometimes very gentle and nice people turn
:05:40. > :05:44.into demons in that room. I just thought that was an example - leave
:05:44. > :05:50.aside whether it was the BBC or someone else - walking in there,
:05:50. > :05:58.apparently unaware of what was coming. It was horrible to watch.
:05:58. > :06:05.They all have a fantasy the MPs - it goes back to... Of the Watergate
:06:05. > :06:12.investigate. Of the mid-1950s. is interesting you both choose the
:06:12. > :06:17.BBC as your moment of the week which shows we are still in the
:06:17. > :06:21.news. Newsnight was rocked by some shocking events, not the
:06:21. > :06:24.investigations by its best friends at Panorama. Much worse than that -
:06:24. > :06:29.Jeremy Paxman has been on air without a tie!
:06:29. > :06:35.Some have wondered whether his belt and laces have been taken away too!
:06:35. > :06:41.We nipped into.... Well, it is serious. We nipped into Jeza's
:06:41. > :06:50.locker, obviously Panorama gives the keys and pill fered some of his
:06:50. > :06:58.finest pieces of Pollyiest ta! -- of material. At least, the BBC's
:06:58. > :07:02.Director-General, God bless you, Sir, God bless you, wore a tie when
:07:02. > :07:07.he appeared before the Commons select committee this week. The DJ
:07:07. > :07:12.told him he knew next to nothing of the investigation into Jimmy Savile,
:07:12. > :07:18.even though at the time he was director of vision.
:07:18. > :07:28.That's television to you and me. We asked former BBC stalwart, John
:07:28. > :07:35.
:07:35. > :07:39.Sergeant, to give us his take of When I first became a BBC reporter
:07:39. > :07:44.more than 40 years ago, someone said to me, but you don't write
:07:44. > :07:49.your scripts do you? When I said I did, he said, "But, someone tells
:07:49. > :07:58.you what to write, don't they?" he simply would not believe it when I
:07:58. > :08:00.said, that's not the case. So, I wasn't surprised at the
:08:00. > :08:05.incredulous, mystifyed response from some people to the evidence
:08:05. > :08:10.given to the parliamentary committee by the Director-General,
:08:10. > :08:14.George Entwistle. Appalling, absurd, incompetent - he should resign,
:08:14. > :08:21.they said. But on the basis of what he said on Monday, the Director-
:08:21. > :08:31.General should certainly not resign. He was simply explaining how the
:08:31. > :08:34.
:08:34. > :08:39.D It may seem complicated and in many ways it is. Being responsible
:08:39. > :08:45.for 2,000 journalists is never going to be easy or simple. The
:08:45. > :08:49.Director-General is the Editor in Chief. But if he, or she, becomes
:08:50. > :08:55.too closely involved t staff may become frightened, making them too
:08:55. > :08:58.careful, or too cautious. During the Second World War, the
:08:58. > :09:03.British Army gave its tank commanders, particularly, as much
:09:03. > :09:07.free reign as possible. They called the shots. It made them more
:09:07. > :09:15.confident. It made them more effective. This system of command
:09:15. > :09:20.and control was adopted by the BBC. The bosses here are always careful
:09:20. > :09:25.about not intervening too much. When George Entwistle took the view
:09:25. > :09:33.that the Newsnight investigation might not be broadcast, it wasn't
:09:33. > :09:39.surprising that he didn't inquir further. The BBC management have
:09:39. > :09:46.one objective - to maintain the independence of the BBC.
:09:46. > :09:50.This unique organisation has developed its own way to deal with
:09:50. > :09:56.any eventuality. What other media company would allow one group of
:09:56. > :10:01.journalists, in Panorama, to report on another group, in Newsnight,
:10:01. > :10:07.without even allowing the Director- General to see the report before it
:10:07. > :10:12.was broadcast? So, does that mean the BBC system is perfect? Of
:10:13. > :10:16.course not. Mistakes, sometimes serious ones, as on this occasion,
:10:16. > :10:21.are made. Newsnight should have run that report. And most important of
:10:21. > :10:25.all, for years and years, Jimmy Savile should not have been invited
:10:25. > :10:35.here to Television Centre, as an honoured guest, he should have been
:10:35. > :10:41.arrested. And from the BBC to, well, the BBC.
:10:41. > :10:45.John Sergeant, welcome. I knew we would get you on eventually. Is
:10:45. > :10:53.John Simpson, the famous BBC world affairs editor, is he right when he
:10:53. > :10:57.says this is the worst crisis in the BBC for 50 years? Is that
:10:57. > :11:01.wrong? I know Chris Patten said it was the worst in his career, which
:11:01. > :11:05.I find very difficult to understand. I really think that if you think of
:11:05. > :11:10.the row that there was over sexing up the document and the Iraq war -
:11:10. > :11:15.that was - that was a clash between the BBC and the Government. That
:11:15. > :11:21.resulted in one Director-General going and a real moment, and a
:11:21. > :11:26.chairman going. So the idea this is the worse crisis. What is horrible
:11:26. > :11:30.is this ghastly affair of Savile. It is endless behaviour which the
:11:30. > :11:34.BBC and these other institutions seem to have either ignored or in
:11:34. > :11:39.fact covered up. That is serious. That is very serious. Michael, do
:11:39. > :11:42.you think it is the worst crisis for 50 years? No, I agree, I think
:11:42. > :11:47.the Hutton was the big one for exactly the reasons John Sergeant
:11:48. > :11:54.says. Nonetheless, I think it is a big problem and I think John just
:11:54. > :11:57.now made a very interesting explanation of George Entwistle's
:11:57. > :12:02.answers. Most people will not perceive it in that way. Most
:12:02. > :12:06.people will think it is extraordinary that when the BBC was
:12:06. > :12:10.going to broadcast tributes to Jimmy Savile and he was informed
:12:10. > :12:14.there was an investigation into Jimmy Savile, most people find it
:12:14. > :12:19.extraordinary he did not ask the question. What should it have been?
:12:19. > :12:23.The question should have been - what does this concern? How serious
:12:23. > :12:31.is this? Even though you may be pulling it, is there enough in it
:12:31. > :12:35.to make me worried I am doing all tributes over Christmas? Exactly.
:12:35. > :12:43.The big question is not... I am going to retract that. They are
:12:43. > :12:50.both big questions. Why Newsnight was pulled. The other is why were
:12:50. > :12:56.the tributes broadcast? Leerveing aside all of these allegations, he
:12:56. > :13:01.was the most talentless idiot on television ever. I don't think it
:13:02. > :13:04.is the biggest crisis. On balance, I think Newsnight was probably
:13:04. > :13:09.pulled not because of the Christmas tribute programmes but because
:13:09. > :13:14.there was a fear they would not be able to stand it up. I think John's
:13:14. > :13:18.analysis was very interesting as to how the BBC worked. It is the first
:13:18. > :13:23.time I have understood Entwistle's position. He was criticised for
:13:23. > :13:26.lack of curiousty. What John is saying is this crucial point about
:13:26. > :13:32.independence leads to a certain timidity in the organisation by the
:13:32. > :13:37.people at the top, which could be portrayed as timidity. What they
:13:37. > :13:42.tend to do, is if there is a possibility of avoiding a decision,
:13:42. > :13:45.the wise BBC boss does not then move in. He doesn't think, oh, well
:13:45. > :13:48.I better get involved any way because I might have to make a
:13:48. > :13:52.decision. Their instincts are, right, if it may not be broadcast
:13:52. > :13:56.and that is what Entwistle said, people did not understand that.
:13:56. > :14:00.They thought, well surely he would be interested in a Jimmy Savile
:14:00. > :14:04.sorry. No, he wouldn't. He is thinking of other things. People
:14:04. > :14:07.say, there is an investigation going on. Do I have to deal with it
:14:07. > :14:12.now? I don't. Let's move on. If you are not in an organisation like the
:14:12. > :14:17.BBC, you cannot believe that. Gosh, wouldn't that be interesting,
:14:17. > :14:21.fascinating? No, not for him Head of Vision. Not at all interesting.
:14:21. > :14:28.Would the Christmas schedules be so important, that he would
:14:28. > :14:32.immediately think, "My, goodness this could wreck my Christmas
:14:32. > :14:37.schedule." The BBC has hours it could replace it with instantly.
:14:37. > :14:40.The thought that, oh, my goodness me, my lovely work will be ruined.
:14:40. > :14:44.That is why I said in the piece how difficult it is for people to
:14:44. > :14:49.understand this. If you are not part of it you don't see the whole
:14:49. > :14:52.organisation, it does seem mysterious.
:14:52. > :14:56.Every media organisation, worth its salt, should get into trouble every
:14:56. > :15:01.now and then. The problem is, how do you handle it? The structure of
:15:01. > :15:06.the BBC makes it difficult. It is so big - the way we have handled it
:15:06. > :15:10.- it feels out of control. No-one seemed to know the whole picture.
:15:10. > :15:20.No-one knows where the story is going. That has made it worse for
:15:20. > :15:23.
:15:23. > :15:27.The way it has come out the editor of Newsnight appears to have been
:15:27. > :15:32.hanged. We have not heard his version of the story. So the
:15:32. > :15:38.Director General is put in a weird position where he implies that here
:15:38. > :15:45.is the guy who is going to tape the rap for this. But if he overdoes
:15:45. > :15:51.that, people are going to say, hang on a moment, he hasn't even given
:15:51. > :15:57.his evidence to the inquiry. You can't say, you know what? I called
:15:57. > :16:01.this guy in and he went through it Immediately shown the door Appears
:16:01. > :16:05.that at the end for's blog was challenged the day after it was
:16:05. > :16:09.first published and it was first published on October 4th and Chris
:16:09. > :16:14.Patten wasn't informed until October 21st, so this looks very
:16:14. > :16:19.incompetent. I was reminded of this today, that all large organisations
:16:19. > :16:24.are very incompetent. I was reminded today because someone is
:16:24. > :16:30.selling administratery arch and when I was Secretary of State for
:16:30. > :16:34.defence I was accused of selling Admiralty Arch. Ways in Japan at
:16:35. > :16:40.the time. It asked my press officer and it took them 48 hours for them
:16:40. > :16:44.to discover that we didn't even own Admiralty Arch. Let me try to
:16:44. > :16:49.inject some reality into this. Your moments of the week were on the BBC.
:16:49. > :16:54.We are talking about the BBC and Jimmy Savile. Can I remind you and
:16:54. > :16:58.our viewers that the real story isn't the BBC in this. The biggest
:16:58. > :17:06.casualty of the BBC taking centre stage is that this is a story about
:17:06. > :17:11.the evil abuse of an evil man and other people were almost certainly
:17:11. > :17:14.complicit. What temperature BBC did with e-mails to Newsnight or
:17:14. > :17:19.Panorama, it pales into insignificant compared to what Mr
:17:19. > :17:22.Savile was up to. Absolutely. There's a frenzy here. Mark
:17:22. > :17:28.Thompson is supposed to not take up his new job in New York. I read
:17:28. > :17:33.tonight that that is not true. But you are right there was speculation.
:17:33. > :17:37.George Entwistle is suddenly calling for his head, Patten
:17:37. > :17:40.calling for his head. At the heart of this is a vile and evil man. The
:17:40. > :17:45.allegations against him and the more we learn about it the more
:17:45. > :17:50.evil and nasty he was. It wasn't just a cultural thing from the
:17:50. > :17:55.early 1970s. It was far more evil than that. The newspapers are
:17:55. > :18:00.putting bell oes into this. They got a kicking at Leveson. They
:18:00. > :18:06.think at the BBC we enjoyed that too much and now it is our turn.
:18:06. > :18:11.The what if George Entwistle had come across as a dynamic and
:18:11. > :18:16.amazing charisma character saying, don't worry, I will sort this out.
:18:16. > :18:22.They would have taken him apart wouldn't they? Who is this arrogant
:18:22. > :18:27.man who walks in and says, "Ly sort this out." He's only been there 11
:18:27. > :18:31.days. We know that in Broadcasting House and other buildings it is BBC
:18:31. > :18:35.journalists who are taking up the knives and the axes and every
:18:35. > :18:40.weapon they can lay their hands on, because they are not that fond of
:18:40. > :18:45.their management. In the best traditions of tabloid journalism,
:18:45. > :18:51.what senior heads will roll. don't know. I hope it is not the
:18:51. > :18:58.Director General or the chairman. Michael? If I can say I hope not, I
:18:58. > :19:02.will say I hope not. John? The news managers are have got a case to
:19:02. > :19:06.answer. If this independent inquiries finds e-mails, there's a
:19:06. > :19:12.lots that could come out. On the face of it, the Director General
:19:12. > :19:19.and the chairman, they are well in the clear. You say that John but
:19:19. > :19:24.these two said from in the clear. said Andrew Mitchell should go!
:19:24. > :19:28.head of the, the head is lying at the bottom of the guillotine within
:19:28. > :19:32.24 hours, so there could be some worried people tonight. John, thank
:19:32. > :19:36.you. Good to see you. It may be late, but don't disappear
:19:36. > :19:44.into thin air like Alex Salmond's legal advice. It turns out it was
:19:44. > :19:47.written in invisible ink. Very clever. Stick with us in full view,
:19:47. > :19:50.because coming up, comedian Shappi Khorsdandi is in the wings
:19:50. > :19:53.anxiously waiting to find out what the hell we're talking about next!
:19:53. > :19:56.And given that it's open season on the BBC at the moment, why not
:19:56. > :20:03.shoot some This Week fish in a barrel, on The Twitter, the
:20:03. > :20:06.overvalued Fleecebook, and the Interweb. Everyone else is. Why
:20:06. > :20:09.shouldn't you? Now, they say if you want a friend
:20:09. > :20:12.in Washington, get a dog. I guess the same could be said about
:20:12. > :20:14.Westminster, because loyalty can be hard to find here as well. Although
:20:14. > :20:17.perhaps call-me-Dave showed a little too much towards Andrew
:20:17. > :20:22.Mitchell before the chief snob's Cabinet career was eventually put
:20:22. > :20:25.down last Friday. Sorry, I mean "went to live on a farm" Well, as
:20:26. > :20:28.you know, we're always on the scent for a good story, so we turned to
:20:28. > :20:38.The Economist's Anne McElvoy and her faithful friend, Peter the
:20:38. > :20:59.
:20:59. > :21:06.French bulldog, for their roundup It is a very stressful day for
:21:06. > :21:10.Peter the French bulldog and for me drafted in as the new incarnation
:21:10. > :21:16.of Barbara Woodhouse this week. Peter is about to be put through
:21:16. > :21:22.his paces at the Westminster dog of the year show. The dogs we'll be
:21:22. > :21:29.judging on that and not their MP owners.
:21:29. > :21:33.It has been a testing time for others too. Cameron and Co were
:21:33. > :21:38.derided by Norman Tebbit, that dear old Rottweiler of the Tory Party,
:21:38. > :21:43.as a dog of the coalition Government. The attack dogs were
:21:43. > :21:48.released on George Entwistle. Would coo it be that the pedigree
:21:48. > :21:51.executive pack had lost its nose for a story in the sad story of
:21:51. > :21:58.Jimmy Savile? I don't know the answer to that question. Have you
:21:58. > :22:05.not asked that question? Are you going ask that question? I will.
:22:06. > :22:11.Are there any questions you would like to be prompted to ask that you
:22:11. > :22:16.haven't asked yourself? Did someone bark an order from above or, as one
:22:16. > :22:21.of the reporters suggested, was it a long political chain which got
:22:22. > :22:25.yanked? Committee still don't know the truth, but the BBC's top dog
:22:25. > :22:30.talked about processes and structure which is somehow
:22:30. > :22:34.prevented him from asking what on earth was going on. You are told
:22:34. > :22:39.that one of the flagship investigative programmes on the BBC
:22:39. > :22:44.is looking into one of the most iconic figures that you are going
:22:44. > :22:53.to issue huge tributes to and you didn't want to know? What was in my
:22:53. > :23:03.mind was this determination not to show an undub interest. But we are
:23:03. > :23:10.
:23:11. > :23:15.all interested now in the story of But we old Westminster newshounds
:23:15. > :23:20.now it is never long in the BBC feud before the politician try to
:23:20. > :23:25.dig Apple juicy bone. And who is this? The freshly minted Culture
:23:25. > :23:28.Secretary Maria Miller bounding on to the scene. These are very
:23:28. > :23:33.serious allegations and it is absolutely right the Government
:23:33. > :23:36.reflects the deep level of public concern. Meanwhile David Cameron's
:23:36. > :23:41.been undergoing critical gaze for his change of temperament. You know
:23:41. > :23:46.what it is like, you threat kids persuade tow get one of those
:23:46. > :23:51.fluffy new Conservatives and before you know it they are snapping at
:23:51. > :23:53.your ankles and.. We teed to be tough as the foundation of
:23:53. > :23:58.effective criminal justice is personal responsibility. Committing
:23:58. > :24:02.a crime is always a choice. That's why the primary, proper response to
:24:02. > :24:06.crime is not explanations or excuses, it is punishment,
:24:06. > :24:09.proportionate, meaningful punishment. When it comes to
:24:09. > :24:12.dealing with those difficult foreign breeds we had a bit of a
:24:12. > :24:15.tuls. On the thorny issue of prisoner's votes the Attorney
:24:15. > :24:20.General, the constitutional watchdog, warned that we might end
:24:20. > :24:26.up in the doghouse if we ignore European legislation. But Mr
:24:26. > :24:29.Cameron said he didn't accept Strasbourg's ruling. Peter? Good
:24:30. > :24:34.dog. What a good dog. No-one should be in any doubt prisoners are not
:24:34. > :24:38.getting the vote under this Government. But it wouldn't be a
:24:38. > :24:42.week at Westminster without on amny vor shambles and the badger cull
:24:42. > :24:46.turned into the big controversial story that wasn't. Today I have
:24:46. > :24:51.received a letter from the President of the N fufplt on behalf
:24:51. > :24:56.of the companies co-ordinating the culls. Explaining why they do not
:24:56. > :25:00.feel they can go ahead this year and requesting that they be
:25:00. > :25:05.postponed until next summer. In these circumstances, it is the
:25:05. > :25:09.right thing to do. All this was good news for the underdog, Ed
:25:09. > :25:15.Miliband, who was hounding his prey at Prime Minister's Questions.
:25:15. > :25:21.Fetch. And that is what he said before he became Prime Minister. We
:25:21. > :25:26.must provide the modern Conservative alternative. Clear,
:25:26. > :25:31.competent... LAUGHTER Inspiring. LAUGHTER Mr Speaker, where did it
:25:31. > :25:35.all go wrong? CHEERING I tell you, I are tell you what has happened
:25:35. > :25:44.under the Government under the last week. Inflation down, unemployment
:25:44. > :25:47.down. Crime down, waiting lists down. Borrowing down.
:25:47. > :25:54.The omnishambles a building attack line for Mr Miliband but it doesn't
:25:54. > :25:58.tell us anything about how he would good he would be at running any.
:25:58. > :26:05.After this action the Andrew Mitchell affair seemed like a very
:26:05. > :26:10.long time ago 2009 Mr Mitchell's dog won Westminster dog of the year.
:26:10. > :26:14.She was imPresident Sarkozyably behaved, unlike her master. Last
:26:14. > :26:19.week we had a Government Chief Whip who was educated at Rugby public
:26:19. > :26:29.school and this week we have one who was educated at Eton. Can the
:26:29. > :26:31.
:26:31. > :26:34.Prime Minister give us an update on his campaign to spread privilege?
:26:34. > :26:39.At Westminster it is the winning and not the taking part that counts.
:26:39. > :26:44.So I'm nabbing a bit of Peter's reflected glory and David Cameron's
:26:44. > :26:47.also trying to borrow some glory from those upward growth figures
:26:47. > :26:55.today. Just maybe it is his chance to gets back ahead of the political
:26:55. > :26:59.pack. Michael, the growth figures for the
:26:59. > :27:03.third quarter were a bit better than expected. Technically we've
:27:03. > :27:07.come out of the double dip. Should we get excited about this
:27:07. > :27:12.snoofrpblts I think we should probably. Not that the economic --
:27:13. > :27:16.should we get excited about this? think we should probably. If
:27:16. > :27:20.narrative of the opposition until now has been powerful. Here we are
:27:20. > :27:23.in recession, back in recession, three quarters of recession all of
:27:23. > :27:27.that a over now. The 1% is a pricked number, because it takes
:27:27. > :27:32.the economy back to where it was a year ago. That doesn't sound
:27:32. > :27:37.spectacular but it does undo the three quarters of recession. So it
:27:37. > :27:40.is a good number. The employment figures last year, last week, were
:27:40. > :27:43.good. I think the great thing about the Government is the austerity
:27:43. > :27:46.programme and the fact that it has stuck at the austerity programme. I
:27:46. > :27:49.think the austerity programme is right. I think eventually the
:27:49. > :27:53.austerity programme will be rewarded by a sort of success. When
:27:53. > :27:58.I say sort of success, it dependents on what happens in the
:27:58. > :28:02.euro and I think the euro is more likely to collapse than not. Alan,
:28:02. > :28:08.the 1% growth in the third quarter is clearly a blip in the sense that
:28:08. > :28:12.that's an annual rate of 4% and the economy isn't going to grow at 4%
:28:12. > :28:17.this year, next year or the year after. If it is back to growth, it
:28:17. > :28:22.is anaemic. This is the political question, is the Labour lead big or
:28:22. > :28:25.strong enough to survive any kind of economic recovery? Well, it
:28:25. > :28:29.would be a foolish Labour politician that felt that that was
:28:29. > :28:35.the case, because it is going to be about the commitment I disagree
:28:35. > :28:40.with Michael, because our criticism in 2010 and 2011 didn't imagine we
:28:40. > :28:45.were going to go back into another recession. Alistair Darling, we
:28:45. > :28:50.were always going to say we were bump along the bottom. The other
:28:50. > :28:55.thing it doesn't feel, up in the North we've had terrible news on
:28:55. > :29:01.jobs today. Now the news in Southampton and Dagenham about Ford.
:29:01. > :29:05.If you took every Treasury official out and every Treasury Minister and
:29:05. > :29:12.put sacks of Maris Piper notes the Treasury, eventually growth would
:29:12. > :29:15.return. There would be gloth the economy. -- growth in the economy.
:29:15. > :29:20.The question is how much damage is done in the meantime to the
:29:20. > :29:25.underlying economy and to people's lives? I want to come back to the
:29:25. > :29:31.question, the Conservatives' problem surely is this. Growth
:29:31. > :29:34.could be so anaemic that only pundits in TV studios notice it.
:29:34. > :29:39.Ordinary folk, particularly the further north you go, as Alan says,
:29:40. > :29:44.don't. So the Torys could have a voteless recovery. That's the
:29:44. > :29:48.political danger. The economic danger is that the economic
:29:48. > :29:53.recovery is so anaemic that public borrowing just goes up and up and
:29:53. > :29:56.in particular the national debt reaches such a size that the
:29:56. > :30:00.markets refuse to lend to the British Government at the present
:30:00. > :30:03.low rates and then you convert a problem which at the moment is
:30:03. > :30:13.perfectly manageable into a cries which is is unsustainable. In other
:30:13. > :30:27.
:30:27. > :30:32.words you become a Spain or an The growth figures -%, as I said.
:30:32. > :30:36.But in recent days, unemployment has gone down, retail sales have
:30:36. > :30:40.gone up. People like me have been saying the deficit is rising again.
:30:40. > :30:45.It is, but not as much by the original figures that we used
:30:45. > :30:49.during the party conference season. Again, I just wonder, if I was a
:30:49. > :30:53.Labour strategist, I look at my leader, I am ten points ahead of
:30:54. > :30:58.the Tories. There was a good Labour conference, but is it strong enough
:30:58. > :31:03.to survive a recovery? We're along way from an election. You are not
:31:03. > :31:06.going to answer that, are you? are right. It has been a good week
:31:06. > :31:12.for the Government. Two weeks if you go back to the statistics. Is
:31:12. > :31:16.there a thought in the public's mind about competence of the
:31:16. > :31:22.Government that overrides that good news and means that it just falls
:31:22. > :31:27.flat and that would be a worry. They have to find some competence.
:31:27. > :31:34.I'll have one more go. Is Mr Balls an asset or liability on policy?
:31:34. > :31:38.He's an asset. He's an asset on the basis that, where Cameron and
:31:38. > :31:42.Osborne have gone wrong, where I disagree with Michael profoundly,
:31:42. > :31:46.is what they said would happen. This austerity package was supposed
:31:46. > :31:51.to lead us away from the danger zone. They would be unwise to go
:31:51. > :31:55.back to that. We are still in the danger zone. What they said would
:31:55. > :31:59.happen, hasn't happened. Votes for prisoners came back again. We are
:31:59. > :32:03.sure it must have been the Attorney General's department, leaking to
:32:03. > :32:07.the Guardian, that we would have to do something on votes for prisoners.
:32:07. > :32:11.The Prime Minister, making policy on the hoof again - saying to the
:32:12. > :32:17.House of Commons, at Question Time, if you want another vote against
:32:17. > :32:24.prisoners, I'm your man. You can have one - vote as much as you like.
:32:24. > :32:28.I'll make a prediction, which is some prisoners will.... That is the
:32:28. > :32:34.Attorney General's idea. Some prisoners will get the vote. Will
:32:34. > :32:42.that be the right thing to do? not all that keen on them getting
:32:42. > :32:46.the vote. I agree with the Attorney General that you have obey laws.
:32:46. > :32:51.There is a way through, that you give some the vote and not others.
:32:51. > :32:56.If there's a way through like that, for heavens sake, take it. I know
:32:56. > :33:00.quite a bit about this. The Strasbourg court was against the
:33:00. > :33:07.ban. The appetite in the Commons for giving prisoners any kind of
:33:07. > :33:17.vote, even with conditions and criteria, you know this? I was
:33:17. > :33:17.
:33:17. > :33:27.against that and voted gepbss it. What we were hoping to -- against
:33:27. > :33:28.
:33:28. > :33:33.What we were hoping to do, is that Cameron did that the way he did.
:33:33. > :33:36.Not a hostage to fortune. But also, so publicly disagreeing with his
:33:36. > :33:42.Attorney General, who must have given him advice before he stood up
:33:42. > :33:46.and said what he said. So, I think I don't want prisoners to get the
:33:46. > :33:53.vote. I somewhere along the line there'll be a compromise.
:33:53. > :33:59.Mitchell did not live to fight another day, contrary to your
:33:59. > :34:04.prediction. I said he would go. It's childish, but very important.
:34:04. > :34:09.Did you get legal advice? Have you got written legal advice? You can
:34:09. > :34:17.play back from two weeks ago. Yes, I said. The badgers live to fight
:34:17. > :34:24.another day, don't they? Will this cull ever happen? I think it is
:34:24. > :34:30.50/50. Things are looking good for the badgers. They have survived
:34:30. > :34:37.another season. Some have described it as a sett-back!
:34:37. > :34:42.Oh, no, that brought this item to an end. You have seen one glance at
:34:42. > :34:47.our sofa, tells you anything is welcome here. We are not fussy.
:34:47. > :34:54.Michael and Alan may not share the same politics, but they are happy
:34:54. > :34:58.to share a FTSE under the coffee table. I have watched them. -- a
:34:58. > :35:02.footsy under the coffee table. I have watched them. Discrimination
:35:02. > :35:12.in football is still an issue. This week, we are putting prejudice in
:35:12. > :35:20.
:35:21. > :35:26.When Alex Ferguson threatened to deal with Rio Ferdinand for not
:35:26. > :35:31.wearing anty racism T-shirt, it seems all men are not born equal.
:35:31. > :35:37.Rio is protesting at a lack of action on press dis. Luckily Sir
:35:37. > :35:43.Alex has not held it against him. always think that the union is
:35:43. > :35:51.stronger than an individual. It's important that he bears his
:35:51. > :36:01.grievances to the right people. Someone else who is not a racist
:36:01. > :36:04.
:36:04. > :36:08.and can prove it in a court of law is comedian Frankie Boyle.
:36:08. > :36:15.A glamour model and her fiancee were dismissed as not the type of
:36:15. > :36:19.people who should be getting married at a posh hotel. Never mind,
:36:19. > :36:24.Pauline. Try the vicar of Babestation!
:36:24. > :36:34.The Supreme Court - modern day suffragettes challenged Birmingham
:36:34. > :36:38.
:36:38. > :36:48.council over pay inequality and a great granddaughter of pan hurst
:36:48. > :36:51.
:36:51. > :36:56.came to Westminster. Is the only Sofa? And we are joined by Shappi
:36:56. > :37:03.Khorsandi. Welcome back to the programme. Thank you. Lovely to sit
:37:03. > :37:08.down. Glad you can take the weight of your feet. There cannot be many
:37:08. > :37:16.Iranian female comedians on the British circuit. There are loads.
:37:16. > :37:20.What causes you the biggest problem in this job - is it your gender or
:37:20. > :37:28.ethnicity? Neither. I don't wake newspaper the morning and go, oh,
:37:28. > :37:33.my gosh, I'm a female, stand-up, Iranian comic again! You get asked
:37:33. > :37:41.about it by journalists again and again. We're just like a herd!. The
:37:41. > :37:47.same questions, again and again! have to say it is the skinny, male,
:37:47. > :37:52.white ginger comedian is never hauled up to talk about the press
:37:52. > :37:57.dishe suffers. People will look at what you -- prejudice he suffers.
:37:57. > :38:02.People will look at you on the stage.... Is it not a big deal
:38:02. > :38:07.then? It is not something I analyse. Sometimes people have said,
:38:07. > :38:12.especially on Twitter t trolls - they keep our bridges safe. They go,
:38:12. > :38:18."Oh, you are only on TV because you are a woman and from Iran." These
:38:19. > :38:25.are the two key things people need in soe business. My mother has just
:38:25. > :38:29.been booked for Live At The Apollo. You cannot analyse it - you cannot
:38:29. > :38:35.say I'm not getting this job because I'm this or that. You have
:38:35. > :38:39.to get on with what you have to do. Being a comedian does that give you
:38:39. > :38:44.more latitude? When you are a comedian, you are in a room with
:38:44. > :38:48.people - you are creating an atmosphere. You are having a chat.
:38:48. > :38:51.They know your intention by being there live. All these comedians who
:38:51. > :38:58.get hauled up for being racist, it is rarely by the people who are in
:38:58. > :39:02.the room with them. You know yourself, if you are at a dinner
:39:02. > :39:09.party and people get your intention is not malicious. Frankie Boyle -
:39:09. > :39:14.well he won the case against the Mirabalais. What a waste that was -
:39:14. > :39:24.- against the Mirror. What a waste of time that was. I
:39:24. > :39:30.could have given it to his favourite charity or donal --
:39:30. > :39:38.Donald Trump's favourite charity! In general, in Britain, where are
:39:38. > :39:45.we now? We all think we have made great strides on things like racial
:39:45. > :39:49.discrimination and predgedils -- prejudice. Do we still have great
:39:49. > :39:58.strides? If we look at other countries that are not as toll rent
:39:58. > :40:05.as us and the fact it is up for debate is.... Are you not joking?
:40:05. > :40:12.That we are not tolerant. I think it is good. I thought she
:40:12. > :40:20.was a comedian. I thought she was here to tell jokes. Don't you think
:40:20. > :40:28.most prisoners would vote Tory? There is prejudice on class. You
:40:28. > :40:38.have the toffs talking about chavs. Just because I am a Tory he thought
:40:38. > :40:43.I went to a leading public school. That is prejudice. Harrow Road
:40:43. > :40:49.Primary School. You have the wrong Harrow!
:40:49. > :40:54.We still seem to tolerate a class prejudice.
:40:55. > :41:01.I hate the term "chav". I hate the way that that was turned into some
:41:01. > :41:07.kind of depiction of the working class I did not recognise at all.
:41:07. > :41:13.It was probably comedians! It was not. Take that back. I thought
:41:14. > :41:21.Michael went to Harrow. You are in no control of where you went to
:41:21. > :41:28.school. Equally, being prejudicial because someone is a toff. When I
:41:28. > :41:32.was an MP. A lady wrote to me and said "do you know how I don't like
:41:33. > :41:37.a foreigner like you being an MP. She said, if it is a part of an
:41:37. > :41:43.exchange programme. While you are here, one of our people is in your
:41:43. > :41:49.country, that would be a good idea. People are bonkers though. People
:41:50. > :41:57.say bonkers stuff to you. Not on this programme. You cannot
:41:57. > :42:06.take something someone says. You have to ride it out. I have to say,
:42:06. > :42:16.it is not taken as seriously as it should be. We have Milf and Cougar
:42:16. > :42:26.banded around. They are used to say a mum's age.Um mi mummy sound like
:42:26. > :42:27.
:42:27. > :42:34.you are -- Yummy Mummy sound like you are covered in chocolate. I am
:42:34. > :42:39.at the Soho theatre, discussing words like Milf and cougar. What
:42:39. > :42:46.fun! The lawyers have told me to bring the programme to an end!
:42:46. > :42:54.That's your lot for tonight. Not for us - because, it is Pippa
:42:54. > :43:00.Middleton's party, planning dinner at a restaurant tonight. Looking
:43:00. > :43:04.for a walk-on part in made in Chelsea. We are finding out whether
:43:04. > :43:08.you pass the Blue Nun to the right or the left. Me, I just drink it.
:43:08. > :43:15.Hopefully Pippa can put them straight. Good old Pippa. Newsnight
:43:15. > :43:23.may be down, but it is not out. Jeremy Paxman may have miss placed
:43:23. > :43:31.his tie again, but Conrad Black has clearly myself judged -- miss
:43:31. > :43:36.judged his opponent. You have been convicted. Will you stop this
:43:36. > :43:45.prejudice. You are a criminal. not a criminal. You are a convicted