:00:21. > :00:25.Tonight, This Week hits the political beat with the Bill. It is
:00:25. > :00:31.not Super Thursday, but millions had the opportunity to vote for
:00:31. > :00:35.their local sheriff today and elect a new Police Commissioner. Has
:00:35. > :00:43.anyone bothered? Does anyone care? The Mirror's politically correct PC
:00:43. > :00:49.Plodd is on the case. It might look slippery around here. There's been
:00:49. > :00:54.more going on than meets the eye - there's been interrogations and a
:00:54. > :01:03.fair few evasions. Some gas customers think prices are
:01:03. > :01:05.criminally high. Martin Lewis names and shames the
:01:05. > :01:09.guilty culprits. Of course energy companies will try and charge as
:01:09. > :01:12.much as they can. Their job is to make money for shareholders. For me,
:01:12. > :01:15.it is the regulators and politicians who need to be in the
:01:15. > :01:19.doctor not doing enough to protect us. As Police Commissioners are
:01:19. > :01:26.elected and the BBC awaits the appointment of a new boss, how
:01:26. > :01:30.important is the chain of command? Fun Lovin' Criminal and former
:01:30. > :01:38.Marine Huey Morgan knows a thing or two about being in charge. Keep it
:01:38. > :01:46.going. Nothing to see here. Nothing happened here. Nothing! You're
:01:46. > :01:54.nicked! Welcome to This Week, no
:01:54. > :01:59.continental train journeys for us. We are the third-class carriage of
:01:59. > :02:06.BBC current affairs. We are joining tonight, bouncing off the studio
:02:06. > :02:11.walls, buzzing, totally wired, having spent the day sipping Blue
:02:12. > :02:18.Nun Frappucinoss and our new tax advisers, Starbucks and co-. They
:02:18. > :02:24.keep nearly 800 failing outlets dispensing the brown stuff out of
:02:24. > :02:28.the goodness of their hearts. Despite �3 billion of UK revenue
:02:28. > :02:32.they don't allow themselves to make a vulgar profit on which they might
:02:32. > :02:39.be taxed. Yes, their appearance this week before the Commons
:02:39. > :02:45.convinces us you don't need morales to fill out an empty tax aturn,
:02:45. > :02:51.just a filing cabinet in the Netherlands.
:02:51. > :02:55.We barely raised an eyebrow when we ordered a tax bill. It is their
:02:55. > :03:01.most popular brew. If you want to know more about corporate
:03:01. > :03:05.responsibility and paying less tax than Jimmy Carr, just Google it, as
:03:05. > :03:09.the old accountancy saying goes. It will pay you a tax-free iTune and
:03:10. > :03:16.you would be Amazons - there's no tax in there either. Speaking of
:03:16. > :03:20.those who need to wake up and smell the coffee. I am joined by two
:03:20. > :03:23.Westminster hot-shots, who will keep you up all nightlong. Think of
:03:23. > :03:29.them as the Mellow Birds and full- fat grande latte, with extra cream
:03:29. > :03:32.of late-night political chat. I speak of course of #manontheleft
:03:32. > :03:42.Alan 'AJ' Johnson and #sadmanonatrain Michael Choo Choo
:03:42. > :03:43.
:03:43. > :03:47.Portillo. I am glad you came back on time.
:03:47. > :03:54.Your moment? I think maybe the meeting today of the National
:03:54. > :03:59.Security Council to consider Syria. The national security council sound
:03:59. > :04:04.big and American, doesn't it. They seem to be moving towards a
:04:04. > :04:09.different position on Syria. The reason seems to be we are reached
:04:09. > :04:12."a Kosovo moment," a moment people demand something should happen.
:04:12. > :04:16.These are not good reasons for making policy. It is true horrible
:04:17. > :04:20.things are happening in Syria and they have a horrible dictator, who
:04:20. > :04:23.by the way does not support British interests, he supports terrorist
:04:23. > :04:27.organisation. We don't know a great deal about the opposition groups
:04:27. > :04:32.either. I don't think we want to get our hands into this particular
:04:32. > :04:35.mangle. I am suspicious about what is driving British foreign policy.
:04:35. > :04:41.One to watch and see what happens next. We cannot do anything without
:04:42. > :04:50.the Americans. We should watch them. A lovely moment from Wednesday.
:04:50. > :04:53.Lady Campbell, from sush on the has made an increasing contribution to
:04:53. > :04:59.Parliament, has found it increasingly difficult to speak and
:04:59. > :05:03.breathe. She wanted to reform a bill in the Lord on Wednesday. They
:05:03. > :05:06.amended Standing Order 12, which has existed since 1707, which said
:05:06. > :05:11.the only people who can speak on the floor of the House of Lords is
:05:11. > :05:16.a peer. They amended it so she could open and then have an
:05:16. > :05:20.assistant. There was not a single vote gepbs it. So the start of --
:05:20. > :05:25.against it. So, the start of House of Lords reform. They have a heart
:05:25. > :05:30.after all. Who would have thought it! More of Pippa's top tips for
:05:30. > :05:34.the festive season. I know you cannot wait for that. We love
:05:34. > :05:41.fruity German wine here on This Week. We have been getting through
:05:41. > :05:45.more than usual recently, not just to deaden the pain of Diane's
:05:45. > :05:49.absence, we have been using it to warm our cockles. There's no money
:05:49. > :05:56.left for the heating. We are not alone. Others are feeling the pinch
:05:56. > :06:06.too. We asked Money Saving Expert, Martin Lewis for his gas-powered
:06:06. > :06:17.
:06:17. > :06:21.It's cold. Winter is coming and as always five of the big six energy
:06:21. > :06:24.companies have announced price hikes. Now, when I ask the users of
:06:24. > :06:29.my website, there are 14 million of them these days, p you were meeting
:06:29. > :06:33.a minister, what would you want them to tackle? The answer, number
:06:33. > :06:43.one, always petrol prices, right now, number two gas and electricity.
:06:43. > :06:44.
:06:44. > :06:50.So, it seems to me politicians, you need to get a grip.
:06:50. > :06:55.Negative energy news is rampant. This week alone, we have British
:06:55. > :07:01.Gas increasing prices tomorrow and of course allegations that the
:07:01. > :07:11.entire wholesale energy market is being perverted. It is's no wonder
:07:11. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:21.Just think about this for a moment - the way our energy system
:07:21. > :07:25.currently works, it is effectively a form of regressive taxation on
:07:25. > :07:32.those who lack financial confidence. That means people like me, who are
:07:32. > :07:36.affluent and plugged in pay less to boil this pan of walker than a
:07:36. > :07:40.struggling 80-year-old granny. MPs please don't oversimplify this.
:07:40. > :07:46.Recently I have tell you telling many constituents to switch. We are
:07:46. > :07:51.in a period of market flux. If you do a comparison, the one who are
:07:51. > :07:55.cheapest, it probably has not put up prices yet. Meaning many will
:07:55. > :08:05.move out of the frying pan into the fire. When the market is moving you
:08:05. > :08:05.
:08:05. > :08:10.should either fix or wait. Plus, politicians often use the
:08:10. > :08:14.wrong language when they talk about cutting your bills by switching.
:08:14. > :08:19.You see, bills have been going up about 20% year on year. That is
:08:19. > :08:23.about the same amount you save by switching. So overall, you are
:08:23. > :08:26.saving compared to what you would have paid. People are expecting to
:08:26. > :08:31.see their bills lowers - that doesn't happen. They think the
:08:31. > :08:35.whole thing is a con and they don't switch again when they need to the
:08:35. > :08:40.next time. So, what should the Government do? Well, it needs to
:08:40. > :08:45.make the system more simple and more transparent. That's the only
:08:45. > :08:49.way the competitive marketplace can work. If that fails, get rid of
:08:49. > :08:58.pricing from companies and let the regulator set it. With the average
:08:58. > :09:04.bill at �1,390 a year, this winter people will be choosing between
:09:04. > :09:10.heating and eating. Martin Lewis, from a cold house in
:09:10. > :09:13.Shepherd's Bush, to our freezing studio. Welcome to This Week. Why
:09:13. > :09:18.can't politicians get a better grip of energy prices? Because I think
:09:18. > :09:25.they are too scared to admit from a consumer, not a supply side, the
:09:25. > :09:29.competitive market place of -- has not worked. It worked on people
:09:29. > :09:34.having the willingness to move. There are a lot of us who do. We
:09:34. > :09:39.tend to be working-aged people. The middle classes, affluent....
:09:39. > :09:43.the ones in fuel poverty. That is the problem. So, actually we are
:09:43. > :09:50.effectively rewarding the people who need it least. It is the way
:09:50. > :09:54.banks work. They give loans to those who have good credit scores.
:09:54. > :10:00.Energy is not a public good, but it is getting on to a public good. We
:10:00. > :10:07.are coming to a crisis point. �1400 a year, average energy price. Part
:10:07. > :10:14.is because our stock of terribly insulated houses. Average income is
:10:14. > :10:19.�26,000 - that is a huge chunk after tax income. When I first
:10:19. > :10:22.started, 10 years or so, energy was a big bill alongside phones. Energy
:10:23. > :10:26.is up there with council tax, after your mortgage or rent, it is the
:10:26. > :10:31.biggest bill you have got. If you cannot afford to turn on the
:10:31. > :10:36.heating that is a health danger. Why is it beyond the wit of
:10:36. > :10:41.politicians, under all Governments of recent times to arrange a system
:10:41. > :10:46.where the poorest in society just get the lowest tariff? You have to
:10:46. > :10:50.remember, Martin is right about politicians not concentrating on
:10:50. > :10:55.this. Prices were going down for a long period. I was responsible for
:10:55. > :11:00.this in DTI when we were a net importer of gas rather Thanet
:11:00. > :11:04.exporter for the first time. Then we were concentrating on new build,
:11:04. > :11:10.how do we get more gas into the system? We have the pipelines from
:11:10. > :11:14.the Netherlands and Norway. That was the priority. Prices fell,
:11:14. > :11:21.because for a while there was more competition and world prices were
:11:21. > :11:25.falling too. Now they are rising and we are suffering. When rising
:11:25. > :11:29.prices - why can't we arrange for the poorest in society just to get
:11:29. > :11:36.the lowest tariff? This is what David Cameron famously promised of
:11:36. > :11:40.the Energy Bill. Can you answer the question? Because n a way there is
:11:40. > :11:44.an income patibility, that you will give the lowest price to a set of
:11:44. > :11:50.people and have competition. I don't think politicians are yet
:11:50. > :11:54.given up on competition. You could have one to provide the lowest
:11:54. > :12:00.tariff. I'm not sure I see that. If you declare that the lowest tariff
:12:00. > :12:03.must go to the poorest... You mean the lowest within any particular
:12:03. > :12:07.supplier? That doesn't help. You have the problem that the older
:12:07. > :12:11.people will not switch to a cheaper supplier. You could mandate that
:12:11. > :12:15.they had to provide the lowest tariff. What is fascinating is I am
:12:15. > :12:18.not sure the Prime Minister meant to say what he said. He said
:12:18. > :12:23.exactly what the public want. I was polled on this on the site. We said
:12:23. > :12:32.to people, look, what do you want - the range of tariffs we have now,
:12:32. > :12:38.where there is a difference. �13.90 on the average. -- �1390, or do you
:12:38. > :12:43.want a few tariffs, so the cheapest will not be as cheap or one tariff?
:12:43. > :12:47.80% of people didn't want what we have now. A huge number said, just
:12:47. > :12:53.give me one tariff. They wanted regulated tariffs. That is what the
:12:53. > :12:59.pub lib want. I can understand that -- Public want. I can understand
:12:59. > :13:03.they may want a variety of tariffs, but I would have thought most
:13:03. > :13:10.domestic consumers simply want the lowest price. Why do they need a
:13:10. > :13:17.variety of tariffs? There is always going to be some, whether you want
:13:17. > :13:20.to fix and lock into today's rate or a variable. What we have is a
:13:20. > :13:26.competitive marketplace, or supposedly, where it works for the
:13:26. > :13:30.people who take advantage of it. What interests me is you hear
:13:30. > :13:36.politicians and they try and spin it back towards the companies. My
:13:36. > :13:46.view is simple - we privatised, we sold it. The company's jobs is to
:13:46. > :13:51.
:13:51. > :13:55.It's not a free market by any means. Are the regulators up to the job?
:13:56. > :13:59.No, it needs much stronger regulation. In particular, we have
:13:59. > :14:04.heard this week about The Guardian, a kind of LIBOR fixing scandal
:14:04. > :14:08.which is being investigated. That's criminality in effect, isn't it?
:14:08. > :14:14.Yes. That is illegal fixing. I'm wondering since we haven't got a
:14:14. > :14:18.free market in energy, whether the regulator is good enough to create
:14:18. > :14:23.a fair market. No, is the answer to that. I think politicians are
:14:23. > :14:29.reaching the point they are beginning to lose faith in the
:14:29. > :14:33.ability to produce the best deal for consumers. It's a psychological
:14:33. > :14:36.and philosophical moment if that is what you conclude. For the last 20
:14:36. > :14:42.years, it's based on the idea that competition would give people a
:14:42. > :14:46.deal. In most things in life, that is what happens, at the shops, with
:14:46. > :14:56.the telephones, if you fly on airline, competition's brought down
:14:56. > :14:59.prices. What's happening with the prices, they would be rising more
:14:59. > :15:04.if it wasn't for competition? partly international pricing, we
:15:04. > :15:10.need to insulate our stock of houses in this country much better.
:15:10. > :15:14.Also, people simply don't understand. You go on to a
:15:14. > :15:18.comparison site, plug in your details and tell tell you who is
:15:18. > :15:22.cheapest, it's that simple. It's a little daunting perhaps for someone
:15:22. > :15:32.in their late 70s, the most vulnerable people on a state
:15:32. > :15:36.
:15:36. > :15:41.pension? So the idea for supporting that is switching collectively. The
:15:41. > :15:45.Labour Party's got one I believe. The price you get if you use that
:15:45. > :15:52.will not be as cheap as a comparison. The second problem we
:15:52. > :15:58.have with it is I looked at one and the people who provided me said you
:15:58. > :16:03.can collectively get it cheaper, but then you won't be told you will
:16:03. > :16:08.go back on the variable. I refused to do it because if you can't be
:16:08. > :16:13.told your price is going up, what is the point in getting involved so
:16:13. > :16:16.energy companies won't play ball with collective switching.
:16:16. > :16:20.discussion about this is complicated enough without looking
:16:20. > :16:24.at the tariffs behind it With the collective switch, find someone you
:16:24. > :16:29.trust who says do this. I wanted to be one of those people but I
:16:29. > :16:34.couldn't find a tariff good enough to be able to stay it. My data is
:16:34. > :16:38.one of the things where you get someone like me or someone run ago
:16:38. > :16:42.website could say, fill in this form, we'll get your data from the
:16:42. > :16:48.energy company, we'll use that to analyse your bills but again, it
:16:48. > :16:51.won't help the 75-year-old who finds it all too complicated which
:16:51. > :16:57.is the problem. There are votes for this on the Conservative Party
:16:57. > :17:00.which comes up with a credible policy. It matters so much? Yes.
:17:00. > :17:04.That's why David Cameron has been berated for what he said and I
:17:04. > :17:08.believe that possibly what he said wasn't extremely well thought out,
:17:08. > :17:14.but at least he's connecting with what is worrying people. That's
:17:14. > :17:18.Martin's point and a key concern, I hope politicians realise that.
:17:18. > :17:24.Whenever I say I'm going to meet a minister, what should I like to
:17:24. > :17:27.talk about, 50% is petrol prices, the other 50% is this, this is
:17:27. > :17:33.number two, petrol. If you are stuck at home with nothing better
:17:33. > :17:38.to do than to finish that bottle, watch us waffle and scratch your
:17:38. > :17:46.electronic tag. Fear not Mr Qatada, things are about to get more
:17:47. > :17:56.rock'n'roll. Ex-marine and Fun Lovin' Criminal is ordering the
:17:57. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:02.chain of command. Tonight's Pippa top tip - toast. You need some
:18:02. > :18:07.bread which you can buy from Harrods with money and a toaster
:18:07. > :18:12.which is also available at Harrods on daddy's credit card. You put the
:18:12. > :18:19.bread in the toaster and hey presto, out pops the toast. Amazed. Next
:18:19. > :18:24.week, how to plug in the toaster. We think of ourselves as law-
:18:25. > :18:33.abiding folk. Alan never kicked a dog on his delivery rounds, did
:18:33. > :18:38.you...Er Yes. You are nicked. Michael's crimes are only sartorial,
:18:38. > :18:43.but Theresa law and order May had to tell the Commons get that Abu
:18:43. > :18:53.Qatada couldn't be kicked out of Britain again. We went on the
:18:53. > :19:02.
:19:02. > :19:07.Evening all. When you're a copper, you're never off duty, always on
:19:07. > :19:11.the lookout for the good folk of your parish. My beat is the village
:19:11. > :19:16.of Westminster. You'd think it was rather quiet and nice, slippy
:19:16. > :19:21.around here, but you would be surprised.
:19:21. > :19:24.Back in the day, nobody had to go to a polling booth to pick a Police
:19:24. > :19:29.Commissioner, but now, in this modern era, some people have to
:19:29. > :19:32.vont who's going to be my boss. David Cameron's dream of a lot of
:19:32. > :19:42.law and order zealots could turn into a nightmare if the Labour lot
:19:42. > :19:48.
:19:48. > :19:54.use it as a platform against his police cuts. What misdemee north-
:19:54. > :19:58.west have I found? Who'll make the identity parade? The boss of one of
:19:58. > :20:01.the country's most respected institutions - I'm not talking
:20:01. > :20:08.about the police - had to resign. I'm talking about the boss of the
:20:08. > :20:11.BBC, one of his successors, George Entwistle was sent on his way after
:20:11. > :20:16.Amateur Night was found guilty of a double offence. In light of the
:20:16. > :20:20.fact that the director general is also the Editor in Chief and
:20:20. > :20:23.ultimately responsible for all content, and in light of the
:20:23. > :20:28.unacceptable journalistic standards of the Newsnight film broadcast on
:20:28. > :20:33.Friday, 2nd November, I have decided that the honourable thing
:20:33. > :20:38.to do is to step down from the post of Director General.
:20:38. > :20:42.Fair cop Entwistle. Except his double bubble �450,000 haul was
:20:42. > :20:46.judged daylight robbery. Oi, George, put that swag down!
:20:46. > :20:51.It's difficult to justify the level of payment that has been talked
:20:51. > :20:56.about and I do hope that the level of concern about this is being
:20:56. > :21:01.noted by the BBC Trust and indeed by Mr Entwistle himself. George
:21:02. > :21:08.Entwistle should reflect on this and only take that to which he is
:21:08. > :21:12.entitled under his contract. Today, the wrongly implicated Lord
:21:12. > :21:17.McAlpine made clear that he's after the BBC and those who wrongly named
:21:17. > :21:23.him on Twitter. To call someone a paedophile is to consign them to
:21:23. > :21:28.the lowest circle of hell and while they're still alive. Is that where
:21:28. > :21:36.you've been? Absolutely. I think it describes pretty much what happened
:21:36. > :21:41.to me in the first few days of this event. It gets into your bones, it
:21:41. > :21:49.gets into... It makes you angry. That's extremely bad for you to be
:21:49. > :21:56.angry. It gets into your soul and you just think there's something
:21:56. > :22:01.wrong with the world. Excuse me, Sir, I'm just checking
:22:01. > :22:10.you are not committing a major felony. Could I see your TV licence,
:22:10. > :22:15.please? �145.50, that'll do nicely. On your way now.
:22:15. > :22:20.But there's one real bad boy that everyone in the village would love
:22:20. > :22:24.nicked but he's very good at escaping the long arm of the law.
:22:24. > :22:28.Qatada is a dangerous man, suspected terrorist accused of
:22:28. > :22:32.serious ciems in his home country of Jordan. The British Government's
:22:32. > :22:35.obtained from the Jordanian government ashurns not just in
:22:35. > :22:40.relation to the dream of Qatada himself but about the quality of
:22:40. > :22:44.the legal processes that would be followed throughout his trial --
:22:44. > :22:48.assurances. We will therefore seek leave to appeal today's decision.
:22:48. > :22:52.This is an extremely serious and worrying judgment that means that
:22:52. > :22:56.from tomorrow, Abu Qatada will be back on Britain's streets. I think
:22:56. > :22:59.people will be horrified across this country to learn that that is
:22:59. > :23:04.the case. And the chief super's wasting police time by pretending
:23:04. > :23:08.it's nothing to do with him, that he's an innocent bystander and
:23:08. > :23:11.powerless to make an arrest. completely fed up with the fact
:23:12. > :23:16.that this man is still at large in our country. He has no right to be
:23:16. > :23:20.there, we believe he's a threat to our country... Fed up, frustrated?!
:23:20. > :23:27.He wants to try being a copper on frozen pay, a worse pension with
:23:27. > :23:31.the threat of a P45 hanging over you!
:23:31. > :23:36.The art of good policing is of course the deployment of forensic
:23:36. > :23:46.questioning to obtain a full and frank confession. Do you pay your
:23:46. > :23:47.
:23:47. > :23:51.tax? I dunno... Be forensic! Do you pay your FULL tax? Still don't know.
:23:51. > :23:54.Forensic, forensic, or maybe we should use the rougher technique of
:23:54. > :24:01.the Public Accounts Committee when they investigated Starbucks, Amazon
:24:01. > :24:05.and Google over what tax the corporations do or do not pay.
:24:05. > :24:14.entire activity is here, yet you pay no tax here and that really
:24:14. > :24:20.riles us, it riles us. Can I clarify. We do pay corporation tax,
:24:20. > :24:25.for Amazon. A tiny bit in relation to your sales, a tiny bit, you
:24:25. > :24:30.won't tell us your sales? We have paid in excess of �100 million in
:24:30. > :24:36.payroll taxs in the last five years, tens of millions in business rates.
:24:36. > :24:46.A view on the street in middle earners who pay taxs is that these
:24:46. > :24:55.
:24:55. > :25:00.corporations don't seem to be I told you. It might look slippy
:25:00. > :25:06.but there's never a quiet week in Westminster Green. Keep safe. Good
:25:06. > :25:10.night. He was then arrested for driving
:25:10. > :25:14.dangerously with a bike and for impersonating a policeman. We are
:25:14. > :25:19.going to bail him out tomorrow if we have some money left. Miranda
:25:19. > :25:22.Green of the Lib Dems joins us here. Always good to see you here. These
:25:22. > :25:26.elections for the Police and Crime Commissions took place today. Looks
:25:27. > :25:32.like the turnout was low, maybe historically low. Does it matter
:25:32. > :25:37.that the turnout was low, does it affect them? I think it's extremely
:25:37. > :25:42.serious, yes. I don't think it's a good idea to invent huge new tiers
:25:42. > :25:47.of voting systems in which nobody's interested in participating. I
:25:47. > :25:50.think this is quite a major error, in my view. Might it be that if
:25:50. > :25:54.these people take their positions and there's maybe controversy about
:25:54. > :25:58.them about the way they do things that next time around we'll take
:25:58. > :26:02.more interest in them? Perhaps that will happen. Since this game has
:26:02. > :26:08.been started, we have to hope that it develops in a positive way, but
:26:08. > :26:11.I do think that there are other priorities. I think making this
:26:11. > :26:14.large experiment and extending democracy into the Public Services
:26:14. > :26:17.without making the case for it first, without doing the groundwork,
:26:17. > :26:23.was not wise. It's maybe not just a case, Alan,
:26:23. > :26:31.of a low turnout, it could be a miniscule turnout. That has to
:26:31. > :26:36.devalue them, I would have thought? There are reports about 10%, some
:26:36. > :26:42.saying 5%. 5%! That was the last thing that I heard as we came in.
:26:42. > :26:45.It matters. If there was a question on a ballot paper that said, vote
:26:45. > :26:48.for saying that this is an entire waste of time and a position that
:26:48. > :26:54.nobody wants, that would have won the day. I think really all the
:26:54. > :26:59.political parties are going to have to think about this again. Maybe it
:26:59. > :27:07.will work. It might grow on us? doubt it very much. Off policy here.
:27:07. > :27:10.If you are going to introduce an elective mayor, you have to
:27:10. > :27:15.introduce one. We didn't have this, we didn't have a proper
:27:15. > :27:19.consultation period on this. It's not just police, but people in
:27:19. > :27:23.Local Government and all political parties who felt this was being
:27:23. > :27:27.foisted upon an unwilling police force when you could have made
:27:27. > :27:31.changes to police authorities that needed reform. Just because the
:27:31. > :27:35.police didn't like it? Not just the police. Why didn't the Government
:27:35. > :27:40.have the courage of its own policy? It's almost what it did with
:27:40. > :27:45.elected mayors, it says it should have them, then called the
:27:45. > :27:50.referenda and didn't do anything about it and didn't encourage
:27:50. > :27:54.anything? It's all very unfortunate. This was a very promising idea but
:27:54. > :27:57.it's severely damaged by this. It might have held the election on the
:27:57. > :28:03.same day as other elections which might have disguised the turnout.
:28:03. > :28:10.But the Liberal Democrats didn't want that. I know. It's your fault!
:28:10. > :28:15.Everything is, as you know! As we know! It's a default position. I
:28:15. > :28:17.mean, particularly since these are new elections, I mean most people
:28:17. > :28:22.don't know what the Police Committee is or anything like that,
:28:22. > :28:25.so they are unfamiliar with this concept. It should have been on a
:28:25. > :28:31.day when there were other elections? It probably would have
:28:31. > :28:34.helped. I tend to agree with Alan and I think that there are
:28:34. > :28:37.unfortunately devaluations of voting in democracy if you have
:28:37. > :28:41.multiple elections that people aren't interested in and I'm
:28:41. > :28:45.worried about that. The London Mayor position was not that popular
:28:45. > :28:54.when it was first started. Now after the general election it's
:28:55. > :28:57.probably the biggest election in I think when it comes to today's,
:28:57. > :29:01.because it's not happening in London, actually, that's been a
:29:01. > :29:08.problem for the coverage and the build-up for the campaign, because
:29:08. > :29:13.none of the media, who are all London-based, are voting. We know
:29:13. > :29:17.how London-centric the media is in this country. That is a problem. We
:29:17. > :29:22.are guilty of that. The big question is, will this win in
:29:22. > :29:29.Humberside? I hope so. The polls are closed. The polls are closed.
:29:29. > :29:33.You ought to give Prezza a medal. If anyone raised the profile of
:29:33. > :29:39.this it was the fact that John Prescott was standing. You said you
:29:39. > :29:43.thought the turnout might be very low in Humberside? Very low in Hull
:29:43. > :29:49.and I guess the rest of Humberside as well. Where you have a character
:29:49. > :29:57.and a lot of interest because of John's standing, it's low. Goodness
:29:57. > :30:06.knows what it will be elsewhere. that tulgt Lib Dems wanted devow --
:30:06. > :30:10.thought the Lib Dems wanted devolution of power. I tend to
:30:10. > :30:15.think that when you are sort of looking at all the structures of
:30:15. > :30:20.democracy you have to weigh up what is more important. I am sure we'll
:30:20. > :30:24.come on to talk about Abu Qatada. Issues to do with the rule of law,
:30:24. > :30:32.human rights, introducing a set of elections for something - is that a
:30:32. > :30:37.priority? I think you have to look at what is more important to thing.
:30:37. > :30:40.If you sat down and designed democracy you would say you want it
:30:40. > :30:48.accountable. We are not used to this idea because we have never had
:30:48. > :30:53.it. It is a good idea. How will we judge the success? Let's take for
:30:53. > :30:59.granted the turnout was very low. They are in place. How will they
:30:59. > :31:02.become a success? How will we judge them? If the public in Humberside
:31:03. > :31:07.or anywhere else feel they have a greater say in how the police
:31:07. > :31:12.operate because they have an elected Police Commissioner? It if
:31:12. > :31:15.is a position which proves to be worthy of one of our former Deputy
:31:15. > :31:23.Prime Ministers, that will tend it up there.
:31:23. > :31:27.Aaron Heslhurst is not standing! -- - Michael Hesseltine is not
:31:27. > :31:34.standing! Mr Qatada - not on a plane back to
:31:34. > :31:37.Jordan - free once again - discuss. I think May may's problem is she
:31:37. > :31:41.said, in fact there was a big media operation in April, that he would
:31:41. > :31:46.be gone by the end of the month. Of course the date was wrong, which
:31:46. > :31:50.allowed him to appeal against the European Court decision. The grand
:31:50. > :31:54.chamber did not agree with that. That is one hurdle that actually
:31:54. > :31:59.there was a mistake, but she got away with it. Let's see what she
:31:59. > :32:05.has done right - she is right to try and get rid of Qatada. I
:32:05. > :32:11.couldn't do it. There one bit here, the difference between me and ther
:32:11. > :32:16.reis a is she does not like the European Court of Human Rights. I
:32:16. > :32:23.think that is a ridiculous position to be in. Article Three says you
:32:23. > :32:27.shouldn't be tortured. Artle Six says a right to a fair trial, ie,
:32:27. > :32:31.witnesses against you... So he should not go back? So the court
:32:31. > :32:34.was right? There are two important things which have happened. The
:32:34. > :32:39.European Court accepted the memorandum of understanding Jordan
:32:39. > :32:44.that he would not be tortured. That is Article three out of the way.
:32:44. > :32:49.That is why Theresa May didn't go to appeal. If you look at the
:32:49. > :32:54.judgment, they are very clear that in the code that the Jordanian
:32:54. > :32:57.courts operate through, there is still the need for an amendment to
:32:57. > :33:01.ensure that witnesses will not have been tortured. This is an
:33:01. > :33:06.interesting point. It means there's one more thing the Jordanians could
:33:06. > :33:09.do to put this right. It means there is one thing that was missed
:33:09. > :33:14.in the negotiations between the Jordanians and the British. I don't
:33:14. > :33:18.know why that was missing. Should we take pride that our judicial
:33:18. > :33:22.system is so robust it cannot be bullied by Home Secretaries or
:33:22. > :33:25.Prime Ministers? Well, as a principal, we should. This is a
:33:25. > :33:30.really unpleasant case because he's a very unpleasant man who everyone
:33:30. > :33:36.wants to see gone. You have to, obviously, observe due process and
:33:36. > :33:39.luckily, as Michael points out and Alan points out, it looks as if
:33:39. > :33:46.there is a question of Jordanian law which gives some hope. The
:33:46. > :33:52.question is how long it could take of course. This could go on and on
:33:52. > :33:57.and on. There was an incredibly moving interview conducted in the
:33:57. > :34:02.BBC. We know the BBC has screwed up on this, but I get the impression
:34:02. > :34:05.it is a robust, rude wake-up call for social media as well, Michael?
:34:05. > :34:11.I think the really important thing is you will not be able to control
:34:11. > :34:17.what is out there in the social media, but you need to dig a trench,
:34:17. > :34:21.so the sewerage which is out there does not penetrate the respectable
:34:21. > :34:30.media, whether the BBC or respectable journalists or Twitter
:34:30. > :34:35.or blogs. The calamity of the Newsnight case and that of Phillip
:34:35. > :34:39.Schofield is they allowed it to inspect the social media. That laz
:34:39. > :34:43.been a tragedy, but the fact it has -- that has been a tragedy, but the
:34:43. > :34:49.fact it has happened makes us understand we must stop the gossip
:34:49. > :34:54.and the nonsense getting into respectable media. Thank you. Now,
:34:54. > :34:59.like any crack military unit we all know our job here on This Week. I
:35:00. > :35:05.am under orders to pick up the Blue Nun. Alan will pick up the dry
:35:05. > :35:11.cleaning. Michael is under orders to stop talking to strangers on
:35:11. > :35:15.trains. What happens when hierarchy goes capoot? Those giving the
:35:15. > :35:22.orders lose their authority - this week we have ordered the chain of
:35:22. > :35:25.commander r into the spotlight. -- chain of command into the
:35:25. > :35:31.spotlight. In the world of rock'n'roll, there
:35:31. > :35:41.is always a clear pecking order. The front man comes first and the
:35:41. > :35:42.
:35:42. > :35:48.drummer trails in his wake with the kit and the van. General Petraus
:35:48. > :35:54.stepped down after an affair. Causing command in control problems
:35:54. > :36:04.for the Commander-in-Chief.Vy evidence at this point, from what I
:36:04. > :36:05.
:36:05. > :36:10.have seen that the information was disclosed. In the BBC, military
:36:10. > :36:14.rigid management style led to chaos at Newsnight. It seemed no-one knew
:36:14. > :36:19.who was in overall editorial control.Vy To be, as Director-
:36:19. > :36:24.General, very clear on who is running the news operation and
:36:24. > :36:28.ensuring that the journalism we put out passes muster. What will happen
:36:28. > :36:32.now that Police Commissioners have been elected to circumvent the
:36:32. > :36:36.chain of command and give the public a say over how they are
:36:36. > :36:45.policed? When it comes to giving orders, is it helpful to have a
:36:45. > :36:49.specific pecking order, or is it too shackling to work? And that is
:36:50. > :36:55.how This Week operates - by and large. Huey Morgan, week. You have
:36:55. > :36:58.been in the US military, you have been in a rock'n'roll band - both
:36:58. > :37:04.need a clear chain of command, don't they? Absolutely! It is
:37:04. > :37:09.important that you know where you can go to directly and a lot of
:37:09. > :37:14.times in situations that we were just watching, there's a kind of am
:37:14. > :37:21.bigty that no-one really knows where to go and who to talk to and,
:37:21. > :37:27.obviously the top dog has to take, and sit on the sword. Painful! But
:37:27. > :37:32.in the rock'n'roll band, why is it always the front man which has the
:37:32. > :37:38.final say? I never had the final say. In my mu band I have a final
:37:38. > :37:42.say, it is Huey and the New Yorkers. When I was in the Fun Lovin'
:37:42. > :37:52.Criminal, there were three of us. used to be a drummer in a band. We
:37:52. > :37:54.
:37:54. > :38:00.never had any say. Why does the drummer never get a say? Dave
:38:00. > :38:07.Clarke Five. I think all good creative places that people don't
:38:07. > :38:12.take sides and things like that. Did the band fall apart, a lot of
:38:12. > :38:18.bands fall apart when the chain of command fell apart? People didn't
:38:18. > :38:21.want to put up with...Vy Seen a lot of instances where a band has a
:38:21. > :38:25.lead singer and they would be the song writer and the producer and
:38:26. > :38:30.all that stuff. I was lucky enough to have a partner. You could gang
:38:30. > :38:35.up on other people. We couldn't on the drummer because we were all in
:38:35. > :38:39.it together. You did gang up on the drummer? He is the drummer in Huey
:38:40. > :38:48.and the New Yorkers. He is good. When the chain of command is too
:38:48. > :38:58.complex, that is when things go wrong too. Yes remember when we had
:38:58. > :39:04.John Sergeant and he was clear Chief, maybe that should change a
:39:04. > :39:10.bit. This lack of curiousty was explained to me more clearly by
:39:10. > :39:15.Jonathan anyone else. In a sense, it was a confused chain of command,
:39:15. > :39:19.because the DG is the Editor in Chief, but he's not meant to get
:39:19. > :39:24.involved in major editorial decisions. That seemed to be the
:39:24. > :39:29.problem. We are talking about chain of command too much and not about
:39:29. > :39:33.leadership enough.Ing Interest. When Margaret Thatcher was Prime
:39:33. > :39:38.Minister, the chain of command is complicated and that kind of thing.
:39:38. > :39:42.Everybody from the top to the bottom knew what was the aspiration
:39:42. > :39:45.of the Government, what was the direction of travel. Every time a
:39:45. > :39:50.piece of paper was put to a minister, they gave you three
:39:50. > :39:54.options. They always knew which to choose because there was a
:39:54. > :40:01.consistency. A party line? Yes, a party line. I don't mo what it was
:40:01. > :40:07.like under Nelson, but Nelson said to every captain, no captain shall
:40:07. > :40:12.do ill if he mixes closely with the enemy, if he takes on the enemy.
:40:12. > :40:16.Absolutely clear instruction. I mention Nelson, because he was not
:40:16. > :40:20.only in a relationship with a married woman, when he himself was
:40:20. > :40:27.marriedch he had a child by that woman. Thank God there were no
:40:27. > :40:32.papers to expose him and he continued to be our Commander-in-
:40:32. > :40:35.Chief. Was there a pecking order? Yes. There is a kind of pecking
:40:35. > :40:39.order there, in the sense that the major offices of state, the
:40:39. > :40:41.Chancellor in particular, you are supposed to be equal. We all get
:40:41. > :40:44.the same salary, apart from the Prime Minister, but there is a
:40:44. > :40:49.chain of command there. I agree with Michael, leadership is
:40:50. > :40:53.important. In fact, I made a speech the other week - when I went to DWP,
:40:53. > :40:57.they were talking about Michael as employment secretary because he was
:40:57. > :41:01.clear about what he wanted to do. I think actually Michael, the Civil
:41:01. > :41:07.Service will respond to that if you show that kind of leadership. Can
:41:08. > :41:16.we talk about Agent Shirtless by the way? I want to explain this....
:41:16. > :41:20.If you look at, we were talking about Nelson, there was he who went
:41:20. > :41:25.on to become the President of the United States.
:41:25. > :41:30.Television is what it was and there was not bloggers. He didn't get
:41:30. > :41:36.caught out there. The Petraus scandal is a great that Washington
:41:36. > :41:40.throws up. We are in the middle of a scandal here. It is hard to keep
:41:40. > :41:45.tabs on both of them. Isn't there a sense that there is a command of
:41:45. > :41:49.chain issue there. He was seen both in the military to be at the top of
:41:49. > :41:54.the chain of command and was respected. So there is a huge sense
:41:54. > :42:00.of feeling let down by the chain of command. What he did, when this all
:42:00. > :42:04.came out, was the honourable thing to do, was to step down. I mean,
:42:04. > :42:10.with... In, obviously the consequences of his actions are yet
:42:10. > :42:18.to be seen. We don't know what this lady was privy to, but I don't
:42:18. > :42:23.think it was anything that big. Just made him vulnerable. I am
:42:23. > :42:28.pretty sure everybody is looking at his e-mail. Are you better at
:42:28. > :42:34.giving orders or taking them? Taking. Giving. I give orders, but
:42:34. > :42:38.I take them. I'm married! You should be a politician.
:42:38. > :42:44.They gave straight answers, you gave the politicians' answer. You
:42:44. > :42:50.have a new band. Huey and the New Yorkers. I am giving the money
:42:50. > :42:54.interest my record sales to a veterans' charity. I was a Marine.
:42:54. > :43:00.These wars have been so long and these guys are coming back and not
:43:00. > :43:05.being looked after. If I can do any bit to help them, I can. Well done,
:43:05. > :43:11.Sir. That is it. We are giving Annabelle's a miss tonight. We'll
:43:11. > :43:18.hit the open road to Hull. Alan has booked the minicab. Charles Clarke
:43:18. > :43:25.is behind the wheel. We have promised John Prescott we'll be
:43:25. > :43:31.there in time for breakfast. It is a return faree for Charles. At
:43:31. > :43:39.least one minister will be quids in tomorrow. We will leave you with a