:00:19. > :00:21.# The Lord is my shepherd I shall not want... # Tonight, join the
:00:21. > :00:25.this week congregation for the vicar of Westminster as the Church
:00:25. > :00:30.of England says no to women bishops, is it out of touch with the rest of
:00:30. > :00:32.is it out of touch with the rest of society? We have some explaining to
:00:32. > :00:38.do. We have as a result of yesterday undoubtedly lost a
:00:38. > :00:44.measure of credibility. Religious commentator Anne Atkins disagrees
:00:44. > :00:54.with her leaders. This is hardly a disaster. It's barely even a blip
:00:54. > :01:00.
:01:00. > :01:03.in the course of 2000 years of Anne Leslie delivers her sermon.
:01:03. > :01:08.For decades, I've been covering the Israel Palestine situation. There
:01:08. > :01:14.was once I felt hope. It seems to have gone now.
:01:14. > :01:18.And rumour and strife in the NHS's true religion - football. Top
:01:18. > :01:24.gossip merchant Richard Bacon on the little devil inside all of us.
:01:24. > :01:30.You will never guess what I heard about Alan today? What do you mean
:01:30. > :01:38.I can't say it? It's all right. I'll just add the words "Innocent
:01:38. > :01:48.face" because that circumvents Libel Law. And This Week, who art
:01:48. > :01:51.
:01:51. > :01:54.on television, hallowed be thy name. Evening all. Twock This Week. Let
:01:54. > :01:57.me begin by saying how delighted I am personally that the top chap
:01:57. > :02:03.from the Royal Opera House has become our new boss here at the BBC.
:02:03. > :02:07.Of course, I was behind him long before there was even a vacancy
:02:07. > :02:15.when that other chap whose name I forget was doing the job for 54
:02:15. > :02:18.well paid days. But our new man's built to last. Sure I saw him in
:02:18. > :02:23.Billy Elliott or Mamma Mia!. Anyway, it won't be long before mornings
:02:24. > :02:30.begin at the BBC with a communal sing-song, perhaps something from
:02:30. > :02:35.Gilbert and Sullivan followed by a jocular dity, such as My Old Man's
:02:35. > :02:40.a Dustman, then hi who, hi who, it's off to work we go, with a
:02:40. > :02:47.spring in our step ready to face whatever Newsnight throws at us and
:02:47. > :02:52.there Ain't No Stopping Us Now. Gosh, he can sign that beautifully
:02:52. > :02:56.too. And if you're watching, Sir, there's an unpaid Blue Nun I need a
:02:56. > :03:00.word with you about. It's accumulated over the past ten years
:03:00. > :03:07.and they're turn ago bit nasty about it. But there's plenty of
:03:07. > :03:11.cash in the Kitty since Diane left and if there's any chance we could
:03:11. > :03:17.swap the Question Time schedule, you'd earn our undying great feud.
:03:17. > :03:22.The not that of the audience, and I think you will agree to watching
:03:22. > :03:27.tonight, it really is time for some fresh blood, I mean you have seen
:03:27. > :03:30.the material I have to work with? I'm not just talking about the
:03:30. > :03:35.script, that's Shakespearian compared with the panel which
:03:35. > :03:38.brings me to my guests tonight. Michael Portillo and Alan Johnson.
:03:38. > :03:44.They were both dead against you getting the job, by the way.
:03:44. > :03:48.belonged to a party for many years that was criticised heavily by the
:03:48. > :03:53.Church of England for not being concerned with the oppress and
:03:53. > :03:58.minorities and so this week the Church of England decided not to
:03:58. > :04:01.have women bishops. I reflected that my party had a woman leader 37
:04:01. > :04:06.years ago. Interesting. We'll come back to
:04:06. > :04:11.that. Alan? Well, this Government's keen on elected mayors but you
:04:11. > :04:15.would be forgiven for not realising that because they haven't put a lot
:04:16. > :04:19.of effort into selling the policy. Proposed? Yes, we had all the
:04:19. > :04:24.referendums of people saying no. Last Thursday, in amongst the
:04:24. > :04:27.dismal turnout for PCC elections, the Mayor of Bristol and three by-
:04:28. > :04:31.elections, the people of Hartlepool having had an elected mayor for ten
:04:31. > :04:36.years got the chance to say whether they wanted to keep it and they
:04:36. > :04:42.voted "No". So not only is the policy not going forward, but
:04:42. > :04:49.backwards. The fellow there, his name was Stuart. Drummond, yes.
:04:49. > :04:53.he'd been mascot of the local football team, a thoroughly nice
:04:53. > :04:58.person. Didn't you tell us last week John Prescott was going to win
:04:59. > :05:05.the police commissioners... As he did on the first vote. There was a
:05:06. > :05:09.supplimentary vote which... Don't you hate these votes!? They'll
:05:09. > :05:13.never catch on. If you are betting on elections, don't listen to Alan
:05:13. > :05:17.Johnson. It's not been a great for some women. The sales of Pippa's
:05:17. > :05:22.party tips book, yes, I say that again correctly, has despite our
:05:22. > :05:26.best efforts continued to plummet in sales and poor old go Nad was
:05:26. > :05:30.the first contestant voted out of the celebrity jungle even though
:05:30. > :05:40.most Tory ministers had a number on speed dial voting on her to stay
:05:40. > :05:47.
:05:47. > :05:57.Isn't absence of female bishops really a problem? We've asked Anne
:05:57. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:26.The church in crisis rocked to its core on the brink of collapse from
:06:26. > :06:30.the headlines this week. You would think delay in appointing women
:06:30. > :06:34.bishops the worst thing to have happened in nearly 500 years in the
:06:34. > :06:38.Church of England. Cobblers. It's not a crisis, not even a rejection
:06:38. > :06:42.of women bishops. As with any family, the determination to
:06:42. > :06:45.discuss a difficult issue until we are all comfortable is proof of our
:06:45. > :06:49.commitment to one another. My first book in the '80s argued
:06:49. > :06:53.passionately for women's leadership in the church. Everyone in the C of
:06:53. > :06:58.E knows it will happen relatively soon. A significant minority still
:06:58. > :07:03.considers it wrong and if we ride rush shod over their views, we are
:07:03. > :07:06.not better from the world around us. The church should care for all its
:07:06. > :07:10.members. If that means being generous to those who don't agree
:07:10. > :07:20.with me so we can stay together, it's a Christian principle that
:07:20. > :07:32.
:07:32. > :07:38.Besides, being consecrated bishops won't make us any more important in
:07:38. > :07:42.the church than the tiniest newborn baby just baptised. A day may be a
:07:42. > :07:46.lifetime to journalist bus another few years to get this right for
:07:46. > :07:49.another two Millennia isn't long, is it?
:07:49. > :07:52.Politicians could learn from this. We like to think we live in a
:07:52. > :07:58.country where minorities are respected, but increasingly, if you
:07:58. > :08:01.want to wear a burka or turban, run a B&B or adoption agency, you have
:08:01. > :08:05.to conform to the majority view regardless of your own conscience.
:08:05. > :08:10.I don't share the traditionalist convictions, but I don't want to
:08:10. > :08:18.drive out those I disagree with. My fear is not that women will be seen
:08:18. > :08:28.in the house of bishops, it's that centres may not even be seen in the
:08:28. > :08:28.
:08:29. > :08:33.pewss driven out by conformity. My father as a young man of 21 was
:08:33. > :08:38.prepared to lay down his life for his principles, as an objector in
:08:38. > :08:43.the medical corpss he disobeyed the ordor bear arms so I grew up caring
:08:43. > :08:46.a lot about unpopular minorities being given freedom of conscience.
:08:46. > :08:54.I still care now. I don't want to be part of a church that blindly
:08:55. > :08:59.bows to the prevailing view and bullies those who can't change.
:08:59. > :09:04.Anne Atkins from her local church to our little local place of
:09:04. > :09:10.worship here in wefplt. Welcome. The outgoing Archbishop claims that
:09:10. > :09:18.blocking women makes your church look "Wilfully blind". He's talking
:09:18. > :09:24.about you. Not particularly me, but all of us. Talking about people
:09:24. > :09:29.who've opposed women bishops. not opposing having women bishops.
:09:29. > :09:33.You seem happy to go along with it? I'm passionately in favour of women
:09:33. > :09:37.bishops but not in favour of riding rough shod over those against whose
:09:37. > :09:40.conscience it is. That's what this is about. I mean, there's been a
:09:40. > :09:46.lot of misunderstanding and misreporting over the last few days
:09:46. > :09:51.on this. This is not - this is the church throwing out this particular
:09:51. > :09:56.measure as it is framed at the moment - not throwing out - we all
:09:56. > :10:00.know we'll have women bishops in this century, probably early in
:10:00. > :10:04.this century. It's only 2012, so plenty of time! Absolutely.
:10:04. > :10:08.outgoing Archbishop said "We have some explaining to do", talking
:10:08. > :10:13.about the church's attitude towards women? Well, the church is never
:10:13. > :10:18.going to make a lot of sense to the people outside it. Jesus made that
:10:18. > :10:22.very clear that Christians would be misunderstood. What evidence tuef
:10:22. > :10:25.that the layty who voted a representative of the
:10:25. > :10:28.congregations? They've been put there in order to represent the
:10:29. > :10:32.congregation. You made a mistake in your trailer when you said there
:10:32. > :10:40.wasn't a majority, there was in favour of consecrating women
:10:40. > :10:44.bishops. Tt way the church does... The... It was 64% of the layty but
:10:44. > :10:49.it wasn't two thirds. Yes. And the way we like to do things in the
:10:49. > :10:53.church is, we like to bring everyone with us. That's the point.
:10:53. > :10:58.If there is a significant minority against whose... You see, these
:10:58. > :11:04.aren't a bunch of two-headed misogynists who're saying we don't
:11:04. > :11:09.like women, these are people who in conscience, whether they are Anglo-
:11:09. > :11:11.Catholic or evangelical wing and a significant minority cannot
:11:11. > :11:15.reconcile this with their conscience, that's not the point.
:11:15. > :11:19.They are not saying we don't want women, they are saying it doesn't
:11:19. > :11:24.seem to be consistent with our faith. I don't agree with them but
:11:24. > :11:27.I want... I understand that. Are you saying the church hasn't lost
:11:28. > :11:31.credibility? Well it may have done but that's not what the church is
:11:31. > :11:35.primarily here for, it's not here for you to think it's a good thing.
:11:35. > :11:39.It's got a far greater... I'm not a member of the Church of England but
:11:39. > :11:43.I did have lunch with the new Archbishop of Canterbury yesterday,
:11:43. > :11:51.he's deeply worried by this and thinks it's really serious. Yes.
:11:51. > :11:54.And you don't? In the course of 2000 years, no. 50 years ago we
:11:54. > :11:58.were exercised about substanciation, we thought it was terribly
:11:58. > :12:01.important, now we don't give it the time of day. 50, 100 years of time,
:12:01. > :12:05.this will not seem very important. That's because there will be women
:12:05. > :12:08.bishops, it will take you a long time to catch up? So what, the
:12:08. > :12:13.church is not here to gain credibility in the world, we have
:12:13. > :12:18.far more important fish to try. Like credibility and no-one turns
:12:18. > :12:23.up to your congregation? The church world Wild is growing all the time.
:12:23. > :12:27.I'm talking about the Church of England. Churches have been
:12:27. > :12:32.closed,... That's not because we haven't got women bishops. Jesus
:12:32. > :12:35.warned us that the rich, the developed world, harder for a camel
:12:35. > :12:38.to go through the eye of a needle and all that, we always knew it
:12:38. > :12:42.would be like this. People don't think too much about the more
:12:42. > :12:46.important things. It's not because we haven't got women bishops that
:12:46. > :12:52.women aren't coming to church. the Church of England out of step
:12:52. > :12:55.with the rest of society? No. I thoroughly approve of lack of
:12:55. > :13:00.conformity. I think Anne is making a good case for lack of conformity
:13:00. > :13:03.and of all the institutions in all the world that should not conform
:13:03. > :13:07.with the fashions of the rest of society, they are churches. One
:13:07. > :13:12.might say the Church of England has already conform add lot because its
:13:12. > :13:17.leader 147 is in favour of women bishop -- leadership. The Roman
:13:17. > :13:20.Catholic Church holds out on things like celebacy and a completely male
:13:20. > :13:24.priesthood. So they are not bowing to fashion at all. The Church of
:13:24. > :13:29.England leadership wants to bow to fashion but I think it really a
:13:29. > :13:34.very good thing that not everyone wants that. Anne made a point in
:13:34. > :13:37.her film about obliging people who run B& bfs or obliging people who
:13:37. > :13:40.run clinics on whatever, abortions or whatever, obliging all these
:13:40. > :13:45.people to conform to the fashionable change in society, I
:13:45. > :13:55.think she makes a very good point - - B&B. Do you think it undermines
:13:55. > :14:01.
:14:01. > :14:06.What they've done here is set a lower moral standard, than
:14:06. > :14:11.practically every other institution apart from some golf course in
:14:11. > :14:14.Scotland. And the Roman Catholic Church. My colleague said in
:14:14. > :14:20.Parliament, you would set a stain glassed ceiling, which is a good
:14:20. > :14:27.term for this. In terms of how the public view this, allowing women to
:14:27. > :14:31.be ordained 22 years ago and not allowing them, on the basis of an
:14:31. > :14:37.archaic system. Ann sounded like Tony Benn defending our slaughter
:14:37. > :14:40.at the polls - we got a few million votes. What is wrong with the
:14:40. > :14:45.discussion, is you are talking about the Church of England as a
:14:45. > :14:51.political party. If it were, this would be ridiculous, for the
:14:51. > :14:57.leadership. But you are not a political party. To have 22 seats
:14:57. > :15:01.in the Lords - guaranteed. They must be male seats. The two models
:15:01. > :15:04.are the family and an army. You take a family. We have quite a
:15:04. > :15:10.large family. We have five children. There are seven of us. If there is
:15:10. > :15:14.one member of that family who is unhappy with a family decision, we
:15:14. > :15:18.discuss it and down to our nine- year-old. My husband got a new job
:15:18. > :15:22.and wanted to move. One member of our family was deeply unhappy, we
:15:22. > :15:28.would not do it. That is why it is so important. The other model of an
:15:28. > :15:33.army - if you are at war, which the Church militant is at war all the
:15:33. > :15:38.time, if you like. There are more important things, even than sexual
:15:38. > :15:43.equality. If you imagine during the Blitz if we decided sexual equality
:15:43. > :15:47.was more important than winning the war and put a woman in front of --
:15:47. > :15:51.in charge of a bunch of men who would not follow her orders - it is
:15:51. > :15:57.not the most important thing. Church of England is like Britain
:15:57. > :16:02.in the Blitz - it is so busy fighting this invisible war that it
:16:02. > :16:07.cannot have women bishops? What is the Church for? It is not to please
:16:07. > :16:12.the media. It is to preach the gospel. The question is not, do we
:16:12. > :16:17.need more women bishops? The question is, do we need any bishops
:16:17. > :16:21.at all? It is the parish clergy doing the work we need. In a sense,
:16:21. > :16:26.this is much less important. Church of England is a state
:16:26. > :16:33.institution. It is part of our constitution and because of the way
:16:33. > :16:38.you voted, or your church has voted, in the 21st century, only male
:16:38. > :16:44.bishops will get an automatic seat in our Parliament.
:16:44. > :16:48.So what? That's not fair. Are you telling me it is fair... It would
:16:48. > :16:52.be less fair, if 26 of the positions in it are exclusively
:16:52. > :16:56.given to men. Andrew, you are bringing in so many questions about
:16:56. > :17:06.the House of Lords, about the place of the Church. Maybe the Church
:17:06. > :17:08.
:17:08. > :17:17.should not be establish -- established. There are pros and
:17:17. > :17:22.there are cons. Which side do you come out on Having been married to
:17:22. > :17:27.a parish vicar, it would be sad, we lived in an inner city vicarage.
:17:27. > :17:30.People turned to us in a way that they would not if you were a
:17:30. > :17:36.disestablished church. For society and for the underbelly of society,
:17:36. > :17:39.I think it would be a shame, but I think there are arguments for it.
:17:39. > :17:43.think it plays the most important part in establishing the culture of
:17:43. > :17:48.the United Kingdom. Which includes tolerance and
:17:48. > :17:53.moderation and one of the lessons it is teaching us here is that the
:17:53. > :17:58.will of the majority doesn't just always break through, that you can
:17:59. > :18:03.respect the position of minorities as well. I think Ann is right, that
:18:03. > :18:06.in history, this is a small moment. Briefly, does it undermine the
:18:06. > :18:10.Church's position as the established church in England?
:18:10. > :18:15.I think it does. It's the biggest decision which has been made by the
:18:15. > :18:20.Church - the only one which I can remember which has led the
:18:20. > :18:27.headlines. It is not the biggest. Just because the journalists are
:18:27. > :18:33.following it - look, the question is not if we are going to have
:18:33. > :18:36.women bishops. How will we protect them against it and keep them in
:18:36. > :18:41.the Church of England? That is what the debate is about and what the
:18:41. > :18:47.media is missing. Thank you. Now, according to some alarming
:18:47. > :18:52.research published this week, half of all airline pilots have admitted
:18:52. > :18:56.falling asleep at the controls. The figure is higher for BBC Director-
:18:56. > :19:01.Generalsch before you slump forward on the remote, keep your hands
:19:01. > :19:08.firmly on your joy strike! We'll soon be joined by Richard Bacon,
:19:08. > :19:16.who will take gossip very seriously indeed. For those of you who live
:19:17. > :19:22.in diet and innuendo you can face us on Twieter and the good old
:19:22. > :19:26.interweb. Attentions were turned towards the Middle East. Hillary
:19:26. > :19:30.Clinton brokered a ceasefire with the Egyptian President, not before
:19:30. > :19:35.many suffered injuries and death. David Cameron left these shores to
:19:35. > :19:40.renegotiate the EU budget. We turned to Ann Leslie, she has seen
:19:40. > :19:50.a conflict or two in her time. This is her international round-up of
:19:50. > :20:00.
:20:00. > :20:05.the week. It does contain some Hello. Here I am, at the bar, in
:20:05. > :20:15.the club which is a favourite watering hole. Here of an evening,
:20:15. > :20:16.
:20:16. > :20:24.they gather to gossip and, after a jar or two, show off with tales of
:20:24. > :20:27.daring and I have covered a war or two, in dangerous places. I was
:20:27. > :20:35.rather amused by something an American WAG said about war - he
:20:35. > :20:39.said, war is a way of teaching Americans about geography. We Brits,
:20:39. > :20:45.having owned half the world, are not so bad on the geography. The
:20:45. > :20:50.fact is our readers and viewers actually cannot really cope with
:20:50. > :20:54.more than one bloody international story at a time. And who can blame
:20:54. > :21:04.them? For months, Syria was the big story.
:21:04. > :21:05.
:21:05. > :21:08.Now it has been elbowed out of the headlines by, as so often, the
:21:08. > :21:14.Israel-Palestine issue. Good morning, Gaza.
:21:14. > :21:18.This was the wake-up call sent in by Israel.
:21:18. > :21:24.We're getting tougher, more solid and when they kill the parents of a
:21:24. > :21:29.boy, he will look for revenge. These scenes have sent shivers of
:21:29. > :21:36.fear across Israel. A bus bomb in the country's commercial heart, Tel
:21:36. > :21:40.Aviv. This is a bus, filled with people, in the centre of Tel Aviv,
:21:40. > :21:45.which somebody tried to kill, by putting a bomb inside. Who would
:21:45. > :21:50.not be horrified to see this type of picture. I was often rather
:21:50. > :21:57.nervous travelling in Israeli buses because they are prime terrorist
:21:57. > :22:01.targets. OK, so now a ceasefire has been agreed. It will endure? My
:22:01. > :22:08.experience of ceasefires throughout the world is that both sides, all
:22:08. > :22:14.sides, tend to like them rather to begin with, if only because it
:22:14. > :22:18.enables them to have a spot of R and R and stock up on food and
:22:18. > :22:23.fresh weaponry. Then when all sides are nicely refreshed, they start
:22:23. > :22:27.fighting again. Now, I do hope I am wrong this time. The people of this
:22:27. > :22:31.region deserve a chance to live free from fear and violence and
:22:31. > :22:41.today's agreement is a step in the right direction that we should
:22:41. > :22:47.build on. The problem is war is hideously photo again nick and we
:22:47. > :22:53.reporters regularly bombard our audience here with harrowing
:22:53. > :22:56.pictures of dead babies and weeping mothers. The trouble is, all this
:22:57. > :23:05.provides wonderful propaganda for all sides to exploit. For example,
:23:05. > :23:15.once in Africa, I heard a cameraman sheikhing at an aid worker -- -
:23:15. > :23:18.
:23:18. > :23:24.shrieking at an aid worker, "Get me a dead baby now." This is Syria's
:23:24. > :23:28.hell - a ruthless air campaign and the carnage it reaps. And of course,
:23:28. > :23:33.the Syrian conflict goes on. But what, if anything, is the West to
:23:33. > :23:39.do about it? On the basis of the assurances I've reeveed and my
:23:40. > :23:44.consultations with -- I received and my consultations with ministers
:23:44. > :23:49.yesterday, to recognise the Syrian revolutionary forces as the sole
:23:49. > :23:54.representative of the Syrian people. Some people say, how can we stand
:23:54. > :23:58.by and not go in and rescue these dying babies and their weeping
:23:58. > :24:03.mums? Well, this foreign correspondent says we must simply
:24:04. > :24:08.stay out of this. If we in of the West go blundering into this
:24:08. > :24:12.complicated with our guns, our bombs and deluded good intentions,
:24:13. > :24:21.I can tell you that those harrowing scenes will not stop, they will
:24:21. > :24:26.continue and they will get worse and we, in the West will get the
:24:26. > :24:31.blame. Another reoccurring theme, as we
:24:31. > :24:37.know in politics s that Tories, constantly having tussles in
:24:37. > :24:42.Brussels and that is where Cameron is trying to renegotiate the EU
:24:42. > :24:46.budget. Well, dream on, in my view. Incidentally I covered the
:24:46. > :24:52.Maastricht negotiations and was at the signing of the treaty and I
:24:52. > :24:55.said then, it will all end in tears. People say, oh, well, Europe won't
:24:55. > :25:02.break this particular prime minister. I don't think so. I think
:25:02. > :25:05.the EU will break itself, but not immediately. Of course, like any
:25:05. > :25:10.politician who gets some small concession, they come home and they
:25:10. > :25:14.proclaim it a victory. We're going to be negotiating very
:25:14. > :25:24.hard for a good deal for Britain's taxpayers and for Europe's
:25:24. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:29.taxpayers and keep the British relate -- rebate. What more of the
:25:29. > :25:37.sight of Barack Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi and looking, like I might
:25:37. > :25:41.say, looking like a love-struck puppy. # And they call it puppy
:25:41. > :25:47.love # Oh, I guess they'll never know #
:25:47. > :25:57.Not all foreign stories about doom and disaster. Now, where's my
:25:57. > :26:00.
:26:00. > :26:07.Actually, it was vodka! Ann Leslie there. Thank you for
:26:07. > :26:12.joining us on the This Week sofa. Has Mr Cameron entered these budget
:26:12. > :26:17.negotiations with almost no room for negotiation? His negotiating
:26:17. > :26:26.position is not that, it has to be his end position - it's no increase
:26:26. > :26:32.in the wupblgt? I was surprise -- budget? I was surprised to see him
:26:32. > :26:36.surprised to hear him say, no removal of the rebate, as if he
:26:36. > :26:41.fears this is a possible outcome. This is a rebate Margaret Thatcher
:26:41. > :26:45.secured 20 years ago. I assume these talks will simply have to end
:26:45. > :26:50.with deadlock and they will have to come back another day. How did the
:26:50. > :26:55.Lib Dems feel? They are meant to be the pro Europe party. Labour has
:26:55. > :27:01.backed a cut in the budget. The Commons voted for that. The mood is
:27:01. > :27:04.incredibly Euro-sceptic. If he does not get... How do you play it?
:27:04. > :27:09.I think, actually, it's annual important season for this whole
:27:09. > :27:12.issue. As we know, the Prime Minister has said he'll make a big
:27:12. > :27:16.speech before Christmas, in which he promises some sort of referendum,
:27:16. > :27:20.the detail is yet to become clear. We don't even have a date for the
:27:20. > :27:24.speech? Right, the Labour Party is trying to have it both ways on
:27:24. > :27:30.Europe I think in a rather irresponsible manner. Someone has
:27:30. > :27:33.to make the case for the European Union and Britain's, not just
:27:33. > :27:38.continued membership, but centrality of it. That has to fall
:27:38. > :27:45.to the Lib Dems because they have nothing to lose on the issue. He's
:27:45. > :27:50.trying to have it both ways. speech was very, very pro EU. You
:27:50. > :27:55.wait a long time to get a bad speech from David Cameron and he
:27:55. > :28:02.delivered one on Monday. This Yohanes Scarlet school of
:28:02. > :28:07.negotiation, where he -- this Arthur Scargil school of
:28:07. > :28:13.negotiation - where he talks, he has charm, which you need and
:28:13. > :28:19.persuasion, but to go in with that rhetoric.... The House of Commons
:28:19. > :28:25.has voted for a reduction and he knows the Conservative's position
:28:26. > :28:28.is for an increase, well above inflation. With Labour voting for a
:28:28. > :28:34.reduction. Isn't Mr Cameron in Brussels, with the full backing of
:28:34. > :28:38.the Labour Party to get at least a freeze? I am talking about the way
:28:38. > :28:46.you negotiate. If you lose friends around that negotiating table,
:28:46. > :28:49.Michael is right, he has a very difficult negotiating task. He's
:28:49. > :28:59.got a tough job and tough enough job, as it is, without making it
:28:59. > :29:03.
:29:03. > :29:08.It's an extraordinary moment for Europe being unable to resolve
:29:08. > :29:12.these quite fundamental schisms. It's extraordinarily stressful for
:29:12. > :29:16.a Prime Minister seriously. Every Prime Minister more or less finds
:29:16. > :29:19.him or herself in the same position which is that there is no way of
:29:19. > :29:22.getting agreement with the others because we have a fundamentally
:29:22. > :29:26.different position. Because they find themselves socially with the
:29:26. > :29:30.28 leaders, it's awfully difficult to go every time and always be the
:29:30. > :29:33.person who prevents everything happening and being unpopular. They
:29:34. > :29:37.always want to give something and the tension between what they try
:29:37. > :29:42.to do socially with the leaders of Europe and what they have to do
:29:42. > :29:47.with politics at home is upsetting and stressful. These are every
:29:47. > :29:52.seven years, so it's only Thatcher, Blair, Major and Blair that have
:29:52. > :29:56.done it before. But take the rebate. It's tied to the agricultural
:29:56. > :30:01.policy which we want to get rid of. There was a good case for reducing
:30:01. > :30:06.the rebate seven years ago because we reduced the cap. It's still too
:30:06. > :30:12.high. You did reduce it then you didn't get a cut. We did. We got it
:30:12. > :30:16.down to 40%. It's the 21st century and the European budget... But it
:30:16. > :30:21.was a move forward and that rebate is collaborated with the
:30:21. > :30:24.agricultural budget, so if it goes, we succeed in that which is a
:30:24. > :30:31.primary aim and should be, actually the rebate will go down. There was
:30:31. > :30:36.a good reason for the rebate in 84, it becomes less of a good argument
:30:36. > :30:39.20-odd years later or 30 odd years later. The situation in Gaza, the
:30:39. > :30:43.media, commentary and politicians are always talking about we need a
:30:43. > :30:46.ceasefire, then we need to get back to peace negotiations and there
:30:46. > :30:49.needs to be a long-term settlement. Isn't the reality on the ground
:30:49. > :30:55.that for both sides, this is a situation just to manage, just to
:30:55. > :30:58.get through this, there's no possibility of a comprehensive
:30:58. > :31:01.peace agreement? Of course there is a possibility of a comprehensive
:31:01. > :31:06.peace agreement because everyone knows what it would be, what you
:31:06. > :31:10.mean is there is no leadership on either side to get to that.
:31:11. > :31:15.desire? Yes and no leadership. There's only bun one leader who
:31:15. > :31:19.might have been braid enough and that was Ariel Sharon and he went
:31:19. > :31:23.into a coma. Binyamin Netanyahu is not the man to do it. The
:31:23. > :31:27.Palestinians are heavily divided between the Palestinians in the
:31:27. > :31:32.West Bank and those in Gaza, so there's no leadership there, so no
:31:32. > :31:35.opportunity whatsoever of going towards peace. There's bun a bright
:31:35. > :31:39.spot though, the role of Egypt because there was a worry that the
:31:39. > :31:43.new Egypt might be adding fuel to the flames of the Palestinian anger,
:31:43. > :31:47.but actually Egypt's play add very important role in damping things
:31:47. > :31:51.down this week so it's good if that continues. That's partly because
:31:52. > :31:57.the Israelis announced the mobilisation of 75,000 troops last
:31:57. > :32:02.Friday night and the President of Egypt knows the Army's in no
:32:02. > :32:06.condition to to anything about the situation in Gaza? Yes and I also
:32:06. > :32:11.think actually a mass seemed to come out of this with more to
:32:11. > :32:16.celebrate which worries me. I think Abbas over on the West Bank needs
:32:16. > :32:21.to be... Do you think so. It's been written out the script. Exactly,
:32:21. > :32:25.which is why Hillary Clinton made a special effort to give them some
:32:25. > :32:31.credit. I would suspect that Hamas has only signed a truce because
:32:31. > :32:37.it's been very heavily degraded during its military operation.
:32:37. > :32:41.agree, but... It's lost a lot of its weapons. But the talks going on
:32:41. > :32:43.prior to the strike on Gaza were actually getting to those, you know,
:32:43. > :32:47.they've actually got what they would have got from the
:32:47. > :32:50.negotiations in the first place without giving an end date. The
:32:50. > :32:54.Israelis in the negotiations want add ceasefire over a period and
:32:54. > :32:58.they haven't got that. There were other issues the Israelis didn't
:32:58. > :33:01.get. I think the Israelis will be pleased that they've taken out what
:33:02. > :33:06.was one of the most dangerous terrorists and that may have been
:33:06. > :33:09.the whole aim of it. Staying with the Middle East and
:33:09. > :33:14.finishing up on Syria. Significant that William Hague says we
:33:14. > :33:18.recognise the rebels now as the sole representative of the Syrian
:33:18. > :33:22.people? I think so. He was very careful to say that this was a long
:33:22. > :33:26.way short of changing the decision on arming the rebels. Yes. But it's
:33:26. > :33:31.still a very significant moment. They don't have full backing of all
:33:31. > :33:36.Syrian's opposition groups, so that is at least one major Western
:33:36. > :33:40.nation choosing to put its eggs in a particular Syrian basket. Was tit
:33:40. > :33:43.sensible thing to do? I think it's a gamble. I don't know what
:33:43. > :33:48.justifys the gamble. I think the Government took a gamble over Libya
:33:48. > :33:52.and that paid off. It may be that this gamble pays off, it may be
:33:52. > :33:57.that Al-Sadr is on his way out and therefore we'll get some credit --
:33:57. > :34:01.Assad. If I were there, I would need a lot of persuasion that I
:34:01. > :34:05.knew enough about the opposition to want to recognise it. Final word to
:34:05. > :34:10.you Alan? Not sure Libya did work out successfully. I backed it, but
:34:10. > :34:15.looking at what's happening now in Libya, you make the same mistake
:34:15. > :34:19.and there are the wrong forces in that coalition. Difficult to tell.
:34:19. > :34:23.William Hague knows more about the information and the intelligence on
:34:23. > :34:27.this, but it's a gamable. Thank you very much.
:34:27. > :34:33.Now having two fish wives on the sofa means we get to hear our fair
:34:33. > :34:39.share of gossip. Michael told nae Alan's (tell you later) anyway,
:34:39. > :34:43.hope it's healing nicely Alan, sounds nasty! Only when I laugh!
:34:43. > :34:49.When rumours are rife on social media, is tittle-tattle too often
:34:49. > :34:59.mistaken as fact? Keep it on the QT, This Week we are putting gossip in
:34:59. > :35:08.
:35:08. > :35:12.When the Internet jungle drums wrongly accused Lord McIcal pine of
:35:12. > :35:20.being a paedophile, the consequences were serious. It gets
:35:20. > :35:30.into your bones, makes you angry. - - Lord McAlpine. That's extremely
:35:30. > :35:31.
:35:31. > :35:37.bad for yourbgs getting angry. lawyer's promised action. It's not
:35:37. > :35:40.stopped gossip surrounding Lyndon cross bi. What did he say in the
:35:40. > :35:46.meetings with Boris? Whilst football was a buzz with
:35:46. > :35:52.speculation before the sacking of Chelsea boss, Roberto demate owe,
:35:52. > :36:00.perhaps hastening his demise. responsible for the result and
:36:00. > :36:05.performance. I should take the blame. Rumours of streaking
:36:05. > :36:10.journalists on Rihanna's tour plane helped her top the charts this week.
:36:10. > :36:17.So, will the rumour mill grind to a halt now we know the damage it can
:36:17. > :36:22.wreak, or is tittle-tattle always just too good to resist? # I heard
:36:22. > :36:28.it through the grapevine... # We are joined by world famous
:36:28. > :36:38.gossip columnist Richard Bacon. Has this been a watershed week in terms
:36:38. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:45.of all this unsubstantiated online gossip? Yes. By the way, Lord
:36:46. > :36:49.McAlpine described why he doesn't like Chris Patten, but that's a
:36:49. > :36:53.side issue. It's been a watershed moment for a number of reasons. One,
:36:53. > :36:55.I think Twitter is essentially quite cruel. If you are not a
:36:55. > :36:58.famous person, if you are not a politician, if you are not
:36:58. > :37:01.promoting a business, I think it gives you the impression that you
:37:01. > :37:05.are only talking to your friends and a lot of people only follow
:37:05. > :37:11.their friends and their friends follow them. There will be lots of
:37:11. > :37:16.people who named Lord McAlpine and connected him to that horrible
:37:16. > :37:19.story in the pub with their friends. No action will be taken. I think a
:37:19. > :37:25.lot of people thought Twitter was the same thing and this week they
:37:25. > :37:35.learnt that it's not. Do you feel sorry for the ones that are now in
:37:35. > :37:41.the McAlpine firing line? Sally Bercow, for example? No. She called
:37:41. > :37:46.Lord McAlpine a "Big bully?" and adding innocent face to a libel
:37:46. > :37:50.doesn't get around the law, we learnt that too. She should know
:37:50. > :37:53.better, she had 50,000 followers. She understands that Twitter is
:37:53. > :37:59.essentially broadcasting but I think a lot of people didn't know
:37:59. > :38:02.that. There is an argument, I don't necessarily agree with it, but
:38:02. > :38:07.there is an argument that says Newsnight start add rumour and some
:38:07. > :38:10.people on Twitter who maybe don't understand libel repeat add rumour
:38:10. > :38:15.that somebody else started. I know repeating a libel isn't a defence
:38:15. > :38:22.but I can sort of see why it happened. A lot of Tweets relished
:38:22. > :38:27.it. They loved it. They loved the fact that a Thatcherite Tory had
:38:27. > :38:30.been named? Yes. Michael, where are you on this On that last point, you
:38:30. > :38:33.are absolutely right. The wishful thinking point goes all the way
:38:33. > :38:40.back to the BBC and back to Newsnight, it was wishful thinking,
:38:40. > :38:45.part of what happened there. Of course, people have gossiped across
:38:45. > :38:51.the centuries. I've gossiped. I've never gossiped on Twitter because I
:38:51. > :38:54.don't Tweet. So to that extent, I can see that some people who've
:38:54. > :38:59.Tweeted must feel they are hard done by because what they've done
:38:59. > :39:02.is what people have done over the centuries but it's a different kind
:39:02. > :39:05.of publishing. On the other hand, there are some people who're
:39:05. > :39:11.manufacturing malice, they've got factories manufacturing malice and
:39:11. > :39:16.they have to be hit really hard indeed. So if it has been a
:39:16. > :39:21.threshold moment for the latter activity, it's been good.
:39:21. > :39:26.agree? I think Sally Bercow was taking on what everyone was saying,
:39:26. > :39:30.including television stations like the BBC and like ITV's good
:39:30. > :39:37.monthing. But she breached another injunction after that, didn't she?
:39:37. > :39:43.Let's not go on about it? Yeah... These names were being banded
:39:43. > :39:48.around. The Daily Telegraph did a piece with the first ones, rather
:39:48. > :39:53.unwittingly to reveal it was Lord McAlpine. Lord McAlpine was
:39:53. > :39:58.incredibly dignified in the way he dealt with this. He was. For him to
:39:58. > :40:04.be so magistrate none mouse about that, estron the extent of the
:40:04. > :40:12.libel damages he's claiming from certain organisations -- for him to
:40:12. > :40:16.be so magnanimous about that, even the extent of the libel damages.
:40:16. > :40:23.he right to pursue the people who libeled him on Twitter? I think
:40:23. > :40:29.those people with small numbers of followers, he's asking for a bit of
:40:29. > :40:34.an apology. A tokeling? Yes, a slap on the wrist. It's clever? Yes, I
:40:34. > :40:37.think yes it's worth doing it because it's turning it into a
:40:37. > :40:41.watershed moment and I think people's attitudes about Tweeting
:40:41. > :40:48.and more crucially, re-Tweeting libelous comments will change as a
:40:48. > :40:54.result of this. It's a nice remind they're some to have -- of the big
:40:54. > :41:00.figures from the Thatcher era had a deft touch. Some have still got it.
:41:00. > :41:04.Obviously not all! Daft political touch. Do you think
:41:04. > :41:11.in the Twittersphere and social media in general, dining we'll see
:41:11. > :41:14.a pulling back from the nastyness? I hope so. I made a documentary
:41:14. > :41:20.about international trolls earlier this year. I would like that very
:41:20. > :41:25.much. One of the solutions I think should be, which doesn't include
:41:25. > :41:30.state intervention, if people were compelled to use their photo and
:41:30. > :41:34.real name, a lot of that nastyness would dissipate because people are
:41:35. > :41:39.emboldened by anonymity. If we could get rid of that, it would all
:41:39. > :41:42.change. They use the anonymity don't they? They do. You said
:41:42. > :41:47.earlier Michael we have seen this for years, but I think Twitter and
:41:47. > :41:51.social media and fore-cum-s on the Mail and the Guardian, there is a
:41:51. > :41:57.strange alchemy between a person, keyboard and anonymity which has
:41:57. > :42:03.brought out a side of human nature which we have never seen before.
:42:03. > :42:07.Actually, you see it in a car, someone makes gestures and yells
:42:07. > :42:10.obscenities at people that somehow the car protects them. So much more
:42:10. > :42:14.then if you are at a screen and on a keyboard, of course you feel
:42:14. > :42:21.distant from the people that you are dishing it out to. That's a
:42:21. > :42:26.brilliant analogy, it trns you into an irrational monster. But people
:42:26. > :42:30.would always write it on toilet walls and stuff. They send it to
:42:30. > :42:35.you though, they want you personally to see it unless someone
:42:35. > :42:41.knows which toilet you use all the time, that's less effective, you
:42:41. > :42:47.know. The other watershed moment I think is, well not watershed but it
:42:47. > :42:51.was interesting this week BBC and ITV, that Phillip Schofield stunt
:42:51. > :42:56.and I think ITV have handled it well. They don't get the attention
:42:56. > :43:03.of the BBC do they, they really don't? That's my point. If you had
:43:03. > :43:07.done that, or a presenter on BBC Breakfast would have done that, the
:43:07. > :43:11.presenter would have resigned. I'm not saying I think that's what
:43:11. > :43:19.should happen at ITV... But they are judged differently? Exactly.
:43:19. > :43:24.Good to have you, Richard. Pleasure. That's it for - from us. We have
:43:24. > :43:29.marked each other's cards for the Viennese waltz. We will leave you
:43:29. > :43:34.with the sight that viewers of a gentle disposition may find
:43:34. > :43:40.disturbing, secret footage of a certain Michael Portillo getting in