:00:24. > :00:29.As the winter chill spreads across the UK and The Snowman returns to
:00:29. > :00:31.our screens, This Week is walking live on air. Frosty scenes in the
:00:31. > :00:37.House of Commons, as Cameron and Miliband clash over "shirkers",
:00:37. > :00:46."strivers" and and frozen benefits. Writer and journalist Owen Jones is
:00:46. > :00:50.hiding behind the curtains. Government are trying to turn some
:00:50. > :00:53.of the poorest people in society against each other, it is time
:00:53. > :00:56.Labour took on these bitter divisions.
:00:56. > :01:00.The Government warms to gay marriage, but bans it for the
:01:00. > :01:10.Churches of England and Wales. Journalist and commentator Medhi
:01:10. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.Hassan floats in a moonlit sky at night. All is not well in the Tory
:01:18. > :01:21.universe. Liberal Dave can't back down. It is all he's got to show
:01:21. > :01:24.for his compassionate Conservatism. And flying high and looking down on
:01:24. > :01:34.those below - the census shows that the mixed race population is the
:01:34. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:50.fastest growing in Britain. The magic of This Week returns.
:01:50. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:07.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. We had a major power cut. But we
:02:07. > :02:08.
:02:08. > :02:11.are going to do our best. An early Christmas present in the shape of
:02:11. > :02:13.Culture Secretary Maria Miller, who the Daily Telegraph have ever so
:02:13. > :02:15.thoughtfully gift wrapped and placed under the tree of the
:02:15. > :02:18.Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. For those unaware of
:02:18. > :02:21.this yuletide story, an update. Mrs Miller, MP for Basingstoke, is
:02:21. > :02:24.accused of claiming over �90,000 of taxpayers' money to fund the cost
:02:24. > :02:29.of a "second home" in South London, which also happens to be the
:02:29. > :02:31.primary residence of her parents. Despite a ruling that housing
:02:31. > :02:33.politicians' mums and dads is "specifically prohibited", Maria
:02:33. > :02:43.claims she's been given the all clear by an "independent" audit
:02:43. > :02:44.
:02:44. > :02:49.conducted by the Conservative Party, no less! Yet questions remain. Were
:02:49. > :02:52.the Fees Office ever aware that her parents were living in the attic?
:02:52. > :03:02.And why did her claims suddenly stop just as the expenses scandal
:03:02. > :03:04.
:03:04. > :03:08.broke? On this point, Maria is commendably clear: "Because I think,
:03:08. > :03:12.er, there was a lot of concern about the rules and a lot of
:03:12. > :03:16.concern about, you know, er, the whole issue. And it's something I
:03:16. > :03:22.felt that I didn't want to be sort of, er, mixed up in, the fact that
:03:22. > :03:26.I, er, I just made that decision." Sounds like her defence is pretty
:03:26. > :03:29.watertight. Move along now, nothing to see here.
:03:29. > :03:32.Speaking of those who struggle to get their story straight, I'm
:03:32. > :03:35.joined on the sofa tonight by a romance with the shelf life of
:03:35. > :03:39.Maria Miller's Cabinet career, the Harry Styles and Taylor Swift of
:03:39. > :03:43.late night political chat. I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan
:03:43. > :03:53."AJ" Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "you can blow my whistle
:03:53. > :03:55.
:03:55. > :04:01.anytime" Portillo. Your moment of the week, Michael. Maybe two
:04:01. > :04:08.moments. HSBC was fined �$1.9 billion, which might seem like a
:04:08. > :04:11.lot of money to be fined, but considering they had taken $7
:04:11. > :04:17.million the Mexican banknotes, presumably from Mexican drug
:04:17. > :04:25.dealers, who murder about 12,000 people a year, I thought that was,
:04:25. > :04:31.I thought they got off quite lightly. Three traders were
:04:31. > :04:34.arrested in this country over their possible involvement in the
:04:34. > :04:40.possible LIBOR interbank interest rate fixing. As part of the reforms
:04:40. > :04:50.of our banking system, we do need to see the full application of the
:04:50. > :04:56.
:04:56. > :05:02.criminal law and a few bankers in I think only the Co-Op Bank is left
:05:02. > :05:08.with a clean pair of hands. But you always ask me to be brief. I do.
:05:08. > :05:12.was looking forward to debating all of that, the LIBOR scandal, during
:05:12. > :05:18.the next general election. In 2010 it worked quite well, the leaders'
:05:18. > :05:23.debates. This week I hear the start of an income bebt David Cameron
:05:23. > :05:27.deciding that while he was in opposition he liked the idea of a
:05:27. > :05:30.televised debate, but now he's not to keen on the idea. I was there
:05:31. > :05:33.and what he said is something which is true, but it doesn't mean that
:05:33. > :05:37.we should not have a debate. That the debates have sucked the life
:05:37. > :05:41.out of the rest of the campaign that. For three or four days before
:05:41. > :05:46.the debate there was a big build-up to the debate. After the debate for
:05:46. > :05:50.three or four days it was the aftermath. And then you started it
:05:50. > :05:54.again. That's probably the result of three debates, and you not being
:05:54. > :05:58.involved. You need be the main question master. I like that man.
:05:58. > :06:02.The cheque's in the post. Thank you. So, we've learnt a little more
:06:02. > :06:04.about what kind of man Ed Miliband is this week. Apparently, he's no
:06:04. > :06:07.longer irritated at being compared to geeky plasticine character
:06:07. > :06:09.Wallace. He certainly won't be giving his wife sexy underwear or
:06:09. > :06:12.perfume for Christmas. And he's prepared to vote against the
:06:12. > :06:16.Government's 1% cap on benefits, all of which could cause him
:06:16. > :06:19.trouble in the long term. But it's the battlelines being drawn over
:06:19. > :06:29.so-called skivers and strivers that we're most interested in, so asked
:06:29. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:50.writer and journalist Owen Jones to If you were to believe the
:06:50. > :06:56.Chancellor, George Osborne, everybody on tax credits or benefit
:06:56. > :07:02.is a lazy good for nothing shirker, sitting on their sofas all day with
:07:02. > :07:08.their curtains closed, and watching Jeremy Kyle, with no intention of
:07:08. > :07:16.getting off their bums and into work. George Osborne's shirkers are
:07:16. > :07:21.the undeserving poor. I'm deeply disturbed by the
:07:21. > :07:24.psychology of a politician who uses the livelihoods of millions of
:07:24. > :07:28.working poor and unemployed people as a political football. That's
:07:28. > :07:38.exactly what Osborne is doing with his 1% cap on benefits. It's a real
:07:38. > :07:40.
:07:40. > :07:47.terms cut for the living standards of Britain's poorest.
:07:47. > :07:53.It is directing the resentment of low paid workers towards the
:07:53. > :07:56.supposedly luxurious conditions of the unemployed neighbours. Has
:07:56. > :08:04.there ever been such a deliberate attempt to turn people against each
:08:04. > :08:11.other? Thatcher would blush. George Osborne considers himself a masser
:08:11. > :08:21.strat gist, and attempted to set up a trap for Labour to walk into.
:08:21. > :08:31.
:08:31. > :08:34.Putting the indolent skivers George Osborne has got this badly
:08:34. > :08:39.wrong. Six out of ten of those who will suffer his cuts are in work.
:08:39. > :08:43.And the vast majority of those out of work are desperately trying to
:08:43. > :08:47.find it. Osborne claims these measures will help make work play,
:08:47. > :08:57.but given that the majority of people in poverty in Britain are in
:08:57. > :09:07.
:09:07. > :09:13.working house holds, this is Courage, defying the Blair ate old
:09:13. > :09:17.and defending the interests of the battered poor by saying they will
:09:17. > :09:20.vote against Osborne's cap. People shouldn't be punished because their
:09:21. > :09:26.employers pay them bad wages or they are unemployed and there is
:09:26. > :09:32.simply isn't the work out there. The problem for Miliband is that
:09:32. > :09:38.there was a Government and media- fuelled pandemic of hatred against
:09:38. > :09:42.scroungers and the opposition need to challenge it.
:09:42. > :09:52.Osborne has exposed the inhumanity of the Tory Party determined to
:09:52. > :09:56.
:09:56. > :10:02.make the poorest pay for the economic calamity it has unleashed.
:10:02. > :10:07.Owen Jones in his little flat in London. Welcome back to the
:10:07. > :10:11.programme. Labour suggests this, Ed Miliband is walking into a trap set
:10:11. > :10:15.by the Chancellor, but he knows that and he's prepared to take the
:10:15. > :10:21.Chancellor on. Agree or disagree? Agree, he's going to take him on,
:10:21. > :10:24.but I don't think it's a trafplt there is a MORI poll which shows
:10:24. > :10:27.that the majority of people believe benefit shouldn't be cut. What he
:10:27. > :10:34.is talking about here is something which wasn't done in the recession
:10:34. > :10:38.of the '80s or the '90s. I find it distasteful that you are trying to
:10:38. > :10:48.divide people in the way that Owen suggests. But you are saying to
:10:48. > :10:53.somebody who has just lost his job at Comet, average page �480. 4% in
:10:53. > :10:57.2016. You are saying to this person you are going get a �4.71 rise. You
:10:57. > :11:04.are now going on jobseeker's allowance, that's �17 a week. You
:11:04. > :11:08.are going to get a 71p rise. It just zrpbgts it is not fair on any
:11:08. > :11:16.basis. So by how much should benefits go up? I think benefits
:11:16. > :11:21.should go up in line with inflation. I would listen to an argument that
:11:21. > :11:25.says that because we are in these times inflation should be averaged,
:11:26. > :11:30.something like that, but to say crudely that because there's a 1%
:11:30. > :11:35.cap on public sector pay, and incidentally if you are in work you
:11:35. > :11:37.might do a few extra hours overtime. You might go on night shift and get
:11:37. > :11:42.night allowance. There's ways to earn more money when you are in
:11:42. > :11:46.work, even with a cap on pay. And that has to apply to some of the
:11:46. > :11:50.most valuable people in society. Forget the 60% in work. I don't
:11:50. > :11:57.take this issue about all the people out of work are shirkers.
:11:57. > :12:03.Unemployment is 12.2% in my constituency. Comet have just lost
:12:03. > :12:06.jobs. BAE. Seven. Seas moving abroad because of the economy.
:12:06. > :12:13.These are private sector jobs. These people shouldn't be treated
:12:13. > :12:17.in this way or demonised. Alan says it is not even a trap. That's one
:12:17. > :12:27.bit I do possibly agree with. It has now emerged that quite a lot of
:12:27. > :12:30.the people who are going to get the 1% rise are in work. However, I do
:12:30. > :12:33.think that the situation is more complicated than Alan says. The
:12:33. > :12:39.public sector workers have had their pay frozen for a period of
:12:39. > :12:43.time and now it is rising by 1%. Last year there was no freeze to
:12:43. > :12:48.benefits. Benefits went up by quite a generous amount. I think the
:12:48. > :12:53.Chancellor has made a case for moving tax thresh holds up by less
:12:53. > :12:56.than the rate of inflation. Benefit rates along with it. Yes, I do
:12:56. > :12:59.think at the margins the fact that the Chancellor is trying to make it
:12:59. > :13:06.no more attractive to be out of work than it is already, I think
:13:06. > :13:12.that does play. In the past five years, benefit have gone up by 20%.
:13:12. > :13:17.Wages have gone up by 10%. So isn't it time to redress that balance a
:13:17. > :13:21.bit? I don't accept the logic which this Government has embraced with a
:13:21. > :13:26.passion, which is. This you've been mugged and therefore your neighbour
:13:26. > :13:32.should be mugged as well. There is a real problem predating the crisis
:13:32. > :13:36.with people's real wages declining. Four years before Lehman Brothers
:13:36. > :13:41.came crashing down, the bottom half of pay stagnated, but the bottom
:13:41. > :13:45.third it started to decline. The issue we have in this country over
:13:45. > :13:50.the next ten years according to the Resolution Foundation, if you are
:13:50. > :13:54.in the bottom 10%, your income is set to decline by 15% overall. What
:13:54. > :14:00.we are seeing with this particular possible, it's the first time since
:14:00. > :14:05.1931 where the real income of the poorest is set to fall as a
:14:05. > :14:11.deliberate act of Government policy. That's unprecedented. No, it is not
:14:11. > :14:16.unprecedented. It was precedented in 1931. It was precedented in 1931
:14:16. > :14:22.by a Labour Government, because it was a very difficult time. I don't
:14:22. > :14:28.think Alan has smelt the coffee either. What happened in 1931? This
:14:28. > :14:32.is why Labour thankfully learnt from their past mistakes. In 1931 a
:14:32. > :14:35.Labour Government was toppled after attempting to impose those cuts and
:14:35. > :14:40.the Prime Minister ended up in coalition where the Conservatives.
:14:40. > :14:43.What we learnt from the early 1930s, I hoped, as a left, if you like
:14:43. > :14:48.sshes that you don't suck demand out of the economy and you don't
:14:48. > :14:56.make the poorest pay for an economic crisis they had nothing to
:14:56. > :15:00.Why should benefits rise more than wages? The issue is again, this
:15:00. > :15:05.divide and rule tactic where you say, look, the unemployed are doing
:15:05. > :15:07.better than you, which isn't true and if you compare benefits here to
:15:07. > :15:13.other countries, they are comparatively lower, the issue we
:15:13. > :15:18.have to argue for is to take on declining wages not least because
:15:18. > :15:23.Tax Credits, which are included in the benefits cap. The foint make
:15:23. > :15:27.there are, Tax Credits are a lifeline for millions, but they are
:15:27. > :15:30.a subsidy for pay because businesses aren't paying their
:15:30. > :15:34.workers properly. We have to tackle low pay as well and fight for
:15:34. > :15:39.better wages, not least because the taxpayer picks up the bill for low
:15:39. > :15:44.wages. Is it the case that you would find the savings somewhere
:15:44. > :15:48.else or is your case the Government should borrow more? You think the
:15:48. > :15:53.Government could borrow more? want to bring down spending, and
:15:53. > :15:59.there are different ways of doing it. Housing Benefit - the taxpayers
:15:59. > :16:03.are angry and right to be about the amount wasted on Housing Benefit.
:16:03. > :16:07.That's a subsidy for landlords charging extortionate rates. We
:16:08. > :16:12.should be arguing for a... This is the thing the Government have tried
:16:12. > :16:17.to do something about. They have tried to cap Housing Benefit which
:16:18. > :16:20.kicks the tenant. We need to build houses which would stimulate the
:16:20. > :16:24.economy and bring down the Housing Bill. That is not being proposed by
:16:24. > :16:27.this Government. We are seeing a cap which would end up with
:16:27. > :16:32.thousands of people driven out of their homes. Are you sure this
:16:32. > :16:37.isn't a trap, Alan? The New Labour experiment always tried to be much
:16:37. > :16:42.more broad-based than the traditional Labour tribe and it did
:16:42. > :16:45.so by being on the side of aspiration. Although it never
:16:45. > :16:50.really delivereded, it had the rhetoric of welfare reform and
:16:50. > :16:55.staying at home and doing nothing is not an alternative if there is a
:16:55. > :17:01.job available? We introduced the minimum wage, Tax Credits, dragged
:17:01. > :17:05.2.6 million pensioners out of abject poverty and children out of
:17:05. > :17:10.poverty. It was always our aim to look at the disadvantaged and make
:17:10. > :17:16.sure that you didn't leave them floundering. So of course he meant
:17:16. > :17:20.it as a trap but this is the great strategist who convinced Cameron to
:17:20. > :17:25.appoint Andy Coulson the great strategist who thought you could
:17:25. > :17:30.put a tax on pasties and caravans. I don't care what focus groups are
:17:30. > :17:35.saying, it's wrong, I feel it there, it's wrong. I sense that's what Mr
:17:35. > :17:45.Miliband will be saying too. I wonder if Mr Osborne calculated Mr
:17:45. > :17:46.
:17:46. > :17:50.Miliband would waeck walk into his "Trap". -- walk into his "Trap".
:17:50. > :17:53.What Mr Osborne thought was that at the east Mr Miliband would be in a
:17:53. > :17:57.dilemma and that's exactly what he's been in, as I understand it.
:17:57. > :18:01.It's taken him a week to decide what his policy is. On the first
:18:01. > :18:06.day it was perfectly clear that 60% of the people affected were those
:18:06. > :18:11.in work. But on the day, he and Ed Balls devised these form lay about
:18:11. > :18:16.we can't tell yet, we'll have to see what's on the bill. Absolute
:18:16. > :18:19.rubbish, it's taken the Labour Party a week to come up with a
:18:19. > :18:22.decision which I think at the very least is going to weaken their
:18:22. > :18:26.opposition because the Government can always say to them that they
:18:26. > :18:30.didn't have a very clear position to begin with. By the way, the
:18:30. > :18:33.argument somewhat depends on pinning this on a really evil
:18:33. > :18:37.wicked Conservative Government. Of course these are not the facts of
:18:37. > :18:41.the matter at all. We have a coalition Government and an
:18:41. > :18:44.opposition that's taken a week to decide that it's the wrong thing to
:18:44. > :18:49.do. I accept that and certain figures within the Shadow Cabinet
:18:49. > :18:51.oppose this decision. They wanted to end up supporting the cap and I
:18:52. > :18:57.wonder why such people end up in the Labour Party but there we have
:18:57. > :19:01.it. I ask you this, Michael, are you not uncomfortable, not least
:19:01. > :19:06.given the One Nation tradition of the Conservative Party, at the
:19:06. > :19:15.rhetoric which is dividing the non- disabled people against disabled
:19:15. > :19:17.people and private sector workers against public sector workers.
:19:18. > :19:22.uncomfortable with what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in
:19:22. > :19:28.the Autumn Statement, no. What he said about the cur trains drawn?
:19:28. > :19:31.Yes, what he said is true of a certain section of the population,
:19:31. > :19:36.I don't know how tiny or large, it doesn't apply to the entire
:19:36. > :19:41.argument because we are talking about people who're taking in-work
:19:41. > :19:45.benefits. You would be making a mistake if you don't think many
:19:45. > :19:49.British voters agree with what the Chancellor said. They will have
:19:49. > :19:55.evidence in their neighbourhoods that this is the case. This poll
:19:55. > :19:59.showed 69% of people either supported increasing above
:19:59. > :20:03.inflation. You can always be generous with taxpayers' money and
:20:03. > :20:06.both of you have been this evening. Most people are desperately
:20:06. > :20:11.striving for work, if you like. When we talk about the tiny
:20:11. > :20:19.proportion of people, this idea in the Daily Mail you get of people
:20:19. > :20:23.made of wide-screen TVs watching Jeremy Kyle, you... The welfare
:20:23. > :20:25.state has produced an effect that beverage feared but discounted
:20:25. > :20:30.which is that it's discouraged certain people from working and
:20:30. > :20:33.that's an important issue, one that is recognised by the Liberal
:20:33. > :20:37.Democrats, Conservatives and the Labour Party. An interesting thing.
:20:38. > :20:43.You have now got the kind of dividing line you like. Labour is
:20:43. > :20:46.taking what might be described as your left-wing position on this, so
:20:46. > :20:51.the Tories will stick with what they are doing. This is a test of
:20:51. > :20:59.your view of what the Labour Party should stand, if you can't carry
:20:59. > :21:03.the public on this, your hard left view of where Labour should be can
:21:03. > :21:08.crumble? It's standing up for people in society. Never mind the
:21:08. > :21:15.language, what is the answer to the question, this is a test? It is and
:21:15. > :21:19.it shouldn't be put to the Labour Party only, we need a grass roots
:21:19. > :21:24.argument. We need political space. At the moment, the debate on
:21:24. > :21:27.welfare's so toxic. Unless we have an afement to challenge that debate
:21:27. > :21:30.that, toxicity, this tuitions between people, tling be very
:21:30. > :21:36.difficult for the Labour Leadership to make the case and I accept that
:21:36. > :21:40.-- it will be very difficult. Come back and see it when it's
:21:40. > :21:46.worked out. Thank you. According to the latest this week
:21:46. > :21:51.census, viewers from a mixed drinks background are our fastest minority
:21:51. > :21:54.growing group. In honour of the Blue Nun melting pot, waiting in
:21:54. > :21:57.the wings with one she made earlier, Konnie Huq is here to talk about
:21:57. > :22:01.the changing face of the nation. For those of you still coming to
:22:01. > :22:09.terms with change and with drink, you can always bang on about the
:22:09. > :22:12.good old days on the Twitter, the Facebook and the last century
:22:12. > :22:16.interweb. Tonight I said we had problems, there was a power cut in
:22:16. > :22:22.our part of Westminster in this particular Millbank studio. We put
:22:22. > :22:26.a lot of effort into trying to put things up again, the Director
:22:26. > :22:36.General came round, he put the shilling in the metre, that helped
:22:36. > :22:37.
:22:37. > :22:43.us, though he was surprised to find it took more than a shilling. There
:22:43. > :22:46.is a piece we wanted to get out of the computer but we couldn't get it
:22:46. > :22:50.out. We were supposed to be covering gay marriage, the argument
:22:50. > :22:54.about drugs, Europe and also about the career prospects of Marie
:22:54. > :22:59.Miller who I mentioned at the start of the programme, the Culture
:22:59. > :23:04.Secretary. We can show you a bit of some of that. Gay marriage hit the
:23:04. > :23:08.headlines today, a huge argument not just about should it be
:23:08. > :23:13.legalised but whether or not churches should be legally banned
:23:13. > :23:20.from doing it all together. This is what Mary had to say on gay
:23:20. > :23:26.marriage. The legislation will exples sitly
:23:26. > :23:30.state that it will be illegal for the churches of England and Wales
:23:30. > :23:34.to marry same-sex couples. If there's any church, synagogue or
:23:34. > :23:43.mosque that doesn't want to conduct a gai marriage, it will absolutely
:23:43. > :23:48.not be forced to hold it -- gay marriage. These proposals are an
:23:48. > :23:53.outrage. Might be better to leave the institutions to manage their
:23:53. > :24:00.own. This commands widespread support in the country.
:24:00. > :24:02.That was some clips from Parliament on the gay marriage debate. Prime
:24:03. > :24:06.Minister's Questions was pretty lively this week. We covered it
:24:06. > :24:10.live on the Daily Politics. It concentrated on frontbench
:24:10. > :24:14.exchanges between what we were just having a debate about here, about
:24:14. > :24:18.the uprating of benefits by only 1% and Labour's decision to oppose
:24:18. > :24:23.that. Here is a flavour of the exchanges at Prime Minister's
:24:23. > :24:27.Questions. I want to ask him about the people
:24:27. > :24:30.who're doing the right thing and finding work. Now, last week, in
:24:30. > :24:34.his Autumn Statement, the Chancellor decided to cut Tax
:24:34. > :24:37.Credits and benefits. He said it was the shirkers, the people with
:24:37. > :24:42.the curtains drawn who'd be affected. Can the Prime Minister
:24:42. > :24:49.tell us how many of those hit are actually in work?
:24:49. > :24:53.The fact is this, that welfare - I will answer - welfare needs to be
:24:53. > :24:57.controlled and everyone, everyone who is on Tax Credits will be
:24:57. > :25:01.affected by the changes because we have to get on top of the welfare
:25:01. > :25:05.Bill. That is why we are restricting the increase on out of
:25:05. > :25:11.work benefits and it's also the reason why we are restricting in-
:25:11. > :25:14.work benefits, but what we've also done is increase the personal
:25:14. > :25:17.allowance because on this side of the house we believe in cutting
:25:17. > :25:21.people's taxes when they are in work.
:25:21. > :25:24.Now, I notice he wants to get away from what the Chancellor of the
:25:24. > :25:29.Exchequer said last week. We know what the Chancellor was trying to
:25:29. > :25:37.do, he was trying to play divide and rule. This is what he said. He
:25:37. > :25:43.said his changes "Were all about people living a life on benefits,
:25:43. > :25:49.still asleep while their neighbours go out to work." but, Mr Speaker,
:25:49. > :25:52.it turned out it just wasn't true. It is a tax on strives. Will the
:25:52. > :25:57.Prime Minister now admit the Chancellor got it wrong and the
:25:57. > :26:01.majority of people hit are working people? I'm surprised the Shadow
:26:01. > :26:07.Chancellor is shouting again. I'm surprised he's shouting again this
:26:07. > :26:15.week. Because we learnt last week, like bullies all over the world, he
:26:15. > :26:22.can dish it out but he can't take I've heard everything when the boy
:26:22. > :26:30.from the Bullingdon club lectures people on bullying! Absolutely
:26:30. > :26:32.extraordinary. Have you wrecked a restaurant recently?!
:26:32. > :26:37.Prime Minister's Questions had everything about it. You wonder
:26:37. > :26:41.what the rest of the world thinks if they were watching.
:26:41. > :26:47.David Cameron's I'm sure never wrecked a restaurant. Miranda Green
:26:47. > :26:52.is with us. I never have, I never would. Oh, really?! We'll see about
:26:52. > :26:56.that. Gay marriage. Or equal marriage. Are the Lib Dems proud to
:26:56. > :27:02.be part of a coalition that is doing something or disappointed
:27:02. > :27:06.that it's not doing enough? No, I think genuinely proud. I also think
:27:06. > :27:12.on this issue actually that there are a couple of interesting things
:27:12. > :27:16.going on. I think it's a massive mistake to search for pure motives.
:27:16. > :27:21.Well, in life generally actually. Some of the criticism being hurled
:27:21. > :27:24.at David Cameron that he's only doing this because it's part of his
:27:24. > :27:27.detoxification strategy, if we get progress on a major issue of
:27:27. > :27:32.equality, let's take it or pocket it, don't question why. Where are
:27:32. > :27:36.you on this, Alan? Are you disappointed that there are these
:27:36. > :27:39.opt-outs for the Church of England? Disappointed but I suppose there's
:27:39. > :27:44.an issue there going by the consultation that they wanted to
:27:44. > :27:46.make sure that nobody could claim that it was an equalities issue
:27:46. > :27:50.here and they couldn't be dragged through the courts. I thought over
:27:50. > :27:53.the weekend that actually the Government were getting their act
:27:53. > :27:57.together. We have seen so many policies we believed in but didn't
:27:57. > :28:00.seem to have the energy to go out and support. Over the weekend when
:28:00. > :28:04.Michael Gove, Boris Johnson and then John Major, it looked like
:28:04. > :28:08.there was a coordinated action here to get this through. The Church of
:28:08. > :28:11.England stuff kind of I think diminished that a little bit. That
:28:11. > :28:14.was a surprise at the end but we'll vote for it and it will go through
:28:15. > :28:18.I'm sure. I think there is a majority in Parliament. Putting
:28:18. > :28:21.aside the substance, Michael, is the Prime Minister right to make so
:28:21. > :28:25.much of this, because he does seem to be leading from the front on
:28:25. > :28:29.this, which is not necessarily that popular either with a lot of his
:28:30. > :28:33.backbenchers, or with the grass roots of this party. At a time when
:28:33. > :28:36.he's not that popular either because his economic policy isn't
:28:36. > :28:40.working? One misconception is the idea that David Cameron has chosen
:28:40. > :28:44.to pick up a subject for which there was no clamour, no vested
:28:44. > :28:49.interest that was lobbying for it. Whilst in a limited way that was
:28:49. > :28:52.true, what is clear is that same- sex marriage is sweeping the
:28:52. > :28:56.western world, and the idea that you could have had a vote in
:28:56. > :28:59.Washington state, a referendum to legalise single sex marriage and
:28:59. > :29:04.that the issue wouldn't have been raised here is absurd. So David
:29:04. > :29:09.Cameron had a choice. He could either be enthuse castic or he
:29:09. > :29:14.could try to block it or he could be hostile -- enthusiastic. The
:29:14. > :29:17.last two options seem not to have been open about it. He had to be
:29:17. > :29:20.enthusiastic. The Republicans in the United States have demonstrated
:29:21. > :29:25.to us that if you spend all your time appealing to your grass roots,
:29:25. > :29:30.you will not win the general election. On the social issues?
:29:30. > :29:35.There are vastly more gay people out there and an even broader group
:29:35. > :29:39.of people who're proponents of gay rights. And these people who
:29:39. > :29:42.haven't voted Conservative for the last 40 years, they are far more
:29:42. > :29:46.numerous than members of Conservative Party. As an election
:29:46. > :29:50.strategy, it makes a lot of sense and it's a Neon sign that you put
:29:50. > :29:54.up that says the Conservative Party has changed and then people see
:29:54. > :30:03.this and say, that is interesting, I wonder what else is new about the
:30:03. > :30:08.A Royal Commission looking at drugs will be a total waste of time and
:30:08. > :30:12.money. Agree or disagree. Disagree strongly. If you look at what's
:30:12. > :30:16.happening globally, if you look at the drug wars in Mexico. Tens of
:30:16. > :30:19.thousands of people being murdered, both in the exporter countries of
:30:19. > :30:24.drugs and in the consumer countries like ourselves and the US.
:30:24. > :30:29.Something has to change, because this idea that we are fighting a
:30:29. > :30:34.worldwide war against this enemy, well, we're losing it. We have to
:30:34. > :30:38.reconsider for the good of the supplier nation it is and our own
:30:38. > :30:42.crime problems and health problems. You don't seem to be as reformist
:30:42. > :30:48.on drugs in power as it was in opposition. This is one of those
:30:48. > :30:52.issues where you have to be several decades ahead. The Royal
:30:52. > :30:57.Commission... And then when you get in power, you don't do anything.
:30:57. > :31:01.Jeremy Browne is a really good egg. He's been on television this week
:31:01. > :31:05.non-stop saying they are not going to have a Royal Commission. Harold
:31:05. > :31:10.Wilson always had a Royal Commission on everything, and it
:31:10. > :31:15.gave it a bad name, because it was a good way of kicking things into
:31:15. > :31:20.touch. Alan, a good or a bad thing. If you look at the statistics, the
:31:20. > :31:23.use of drugs is coming down. This report was suggesting the opposite.
:31:23. > :31:30.Not just about legislation and criminalisation. It is about
:31:30. > :31:33.education. It is about health, it is about offenders going on a drugs
:31:34. > :31:41.rehabilitation programme as part of their sentence. It is about even
:31:41. > :31:46.prick heroin to drug easers. You give them smaller amounts, for
:31:46. > :31:52.people who cannot get off drugs in any other way. And the report says
:31:52. > :31:58.we are losing the war on drugs. Sorry? Even among young people drug
:31:58. > :32:03.use was less.. But legal highs among young people is a massive
:32:03. > :32:07.problem. That's because they are legal. This report says make them
:32:07. > :32:11.all legal. Where are you on this Michael? I think a Royal Commission
:32:11. > :32:14.would be a complete waste of time. This is an area where politicians
:32:14. > :32:18.decide what they think they can do. They obviously take a very
:32:18. > :32:22.conservative view of what they think the public is going to wear.
:32:23. > :32:26.Time and again politicians have rejected advice given to them by
:32:26. > :32:31.experts. If David Cameron could dismiss Leveson in fiver minutes,
:32:31. > :32:37.he could dismiss a Royal Commission in even less time, so no point in
:32:37. > :32:41.having a Royal Commission. He has a point. He does. It seems to me, I
:32:41. > :32:44.hear what Alan says and I think there's some sense to it. On the
:32:44. > :32:49.other hand I find it difficult to believe that on the whole marijuana
:32:49. > :32:55.is much more damaging to people than alcohol. I myself enjoy
:32:55. > :33:01.alcohol very much and therefore feel hypocritical telling my
:33:01. > :33:06.friends. But part of the marijuana you may have heard about at
:33:06. > :33:09.University is a lot more tough. I want to move on to Europe. This
:33:09. > :33:16.speech the Prime Minister is supposed to be giving is a long
:33:16. > :33:20.time coming. This speech I was at in the Commons to the press gallery,
:33:20. > :33:26.he compared it to tantric sex, that it was a long time coming but it
:33:26. > :33:32.would be better when it would. is a wag. He is struggling, is he
:33:32. > :33:37.not, to find out exactly what he should say. In a way all that
:33:37. > :33:41.matters to many people in this party is whether he will either
:33:41. > :33:44.lead them out of Europe or give them a referendum on in and out. If
:33:44. > :33:47.we had a referendum on in and out I think the public would certainly
:33:48. > :33:51.vote for out. Therefore if you have a referendum you would be
:33:51. > :33:59.effectively saying Britain was leaving the European Union. The
:33:59. > :34:02.Conservative Party is moved bay tremendous distance in the Euro-
:34:02. > :34:06.sceptic dimension. Whereas 20 years ago John Major had problems with
:34:06. > :34:09.his party because they thought he was going to take them further into
:34:09. > :34:12.the single currency, today David Cameron has enormous problems
:34:12. > :34:20.because he isn't saying he is going to lead them out of the European
:34:20. > :34:24.Union. It is difficult for me to think what he will at a to buy off
:34:24. > :34:28.his opponents. I don't think he will buy them off, but I think he
:34:28. > :34:32.is going to kick into it the long grass. What he is going say, I
:34:33. > :34:36.understand, if he wins the next election, by that I mean an overall
:34:36. > :34:40.majority, he will go to Europe and attempt to renegotiate a lot of
:34:40. > :34:47.things back. If he does he will have a referendum which will be
:34:47. > :34:53.accept this renegotiation or leave. Which the Lib Dems won't like but
:34:53. > :34:57.it doesn't affect you during this coalition. No, but it is about
:34:57. > :35:01.buying off UKIP isn't it really? And the internal shift that's
:35:01. > :35:07.happened in the Conservative Party that Michael describes. I've said
:35:07. > :35:12.this before and I will say it again. We must not let British policy on
:35:12. > :35:16.such an important area, on which jobs depend, on which economic
:35:16. > :35:24.growth depends, be affected in a disastrous way by the Conservative
:35:24. > :35:28.Party's fear of UKIP. Which may or may not be to do with the death of
:35:28. > :35:32.Conservative England. I was waiting for someone to make the case, a
:35:32. > :35:37.Government Minister, 20 years ago when you were in Cabinet Michael a
:35:37. > :35:41.whole host of people would have been making the case for Europe.
:35:41. > :35:47.Damian Green is the Policing Minister, made a really interesting
:35:47. > :35:50.speech saying it would be fantastic to be in the EU with all thes
:35:50. > :35:55.advantages of free trade et cetera. None of that damaged by pulling out
:35:55. > :35:59.of the EU. It would be fantastic, because it's a fantasy. I want to
:35:59. > :36:02.see that from more Ministers. the young MP for this district said
:36:03. > :36:07.the same point on the Daily Politics. Why would Europe say you
:36:07. > :36:14.can still be in the club but with none of the responsible tis? Sorry
:36:14. > :36:21.to interrupt you but we have to move on. There is nothing like a
:36:21. > :36:26.good census to get new the mood for Christmas. We've already got the
:36:26. > :36:32.Virgin Mary and the little donkey on the sofa. You decide which is
:36:32. > :36:42.which. This week we are putting the cens news the spotlight.
:36:42. > :36:47.-- census in the spotlight. What a difference a decade makes.
:36:47. > :36:52.The findings of the 2011 census pit a very different picture of England
:36:52. > :36:56.and Wales to society ten years ago. Immigration played a big part, with
:36:56. > :37:01.13% of the population now foreign born. And people identifying
:37:01. > :37:07.themselves as mixed race has doubled. With Olympic poster girl
:37:07. > :37:11.Jessica Ennis declared the face of the census as well as the Games. In
:37:11. > :37:19.London, white British people were no longer the majority. For the
:37:19. > :37:25.very first time. And as if on cue a Sikh soldier guarding the Queen at
:37:25. > :37:30.Buckingham Palace wearing a turban instead of a bear skin. But are we
:37:30. > :37:38.also becoming more God snls Christianity has falling numbers,
:37:38. > :37:42.while those with no belief rose sharply. The census threw up some
:37:42. > :37:46.more unusual facts. You are most likely to be single in Islington
:37:46. > :37:51.and divorced in Blackpool. And does anyone know where you are most
:37:51. > :38:01.likely to be a miner? Kensington and Chelsea of course. It is where
:38:01. > :38:01.
:38:01. > :38:06.the gold diggers live. Konnie Huq joins us. Welcome to
:38:06. > :38:10.theefpblgt now, this business about mixed -- welcome to This Week. This
:38:10. > :38:16.business about mixed race down until ten years, can we conclude
:38:16. > :38:20.that for most people in society interracial marriage is not a taboo
:38:20. > :38:27.any more? I think the figures dropped from 40% of people in the
:38:27. > :38:33.last census did not approve of interrational marriage compared to
:38:33. > :38:39.15% now. That's a hefty drop. Whereas 50 or 60 years ago people,
:38:39. > :38:44."Guess who is coming to dinner?". Yes, but I think more or less a lot
:38:44. > :38:51.of what we found from this census was quite predictable. We saw it
:38:51. > :38:56.coming. If you think that now second generation Asians and Afro-
:38:56. > :39:00.Caribbean people are marrying, and everyone is going to prolive ate
:39:00. > :39:03.and absorb. It is just what we would have expected isn't it?
:39:03. > :39:06.census shows a huge change particularly for England and Wales,
:39:06. > :39:12.and particularly in London, because of the high immigration over the
:39:12. > :39:19.past ten years. Both the size and the speed of this immigration. Some
:39:19. > :39:26.people are still concerned about that. Well, with all the EU members
:39:26. > :39:30.from 2004 I don't think people anticipated how many migrants would
:39:30. > :39:37.come into the UK. If you think about, say, Spain and Portugal.
:39:37. > :39:41.When they joined, we didn't have the influx that we've had. I think
:39:41. > :39:45.Polish migrants have gone up ninefold. A huge increase in
:39:45. > :39:54.Eastern Europeans in jet. But the statistics that were predicted were
:39:54. > :39:58.aoff. But this is what has happened throughout the ages. People will
:39:58. > :40:04.move. The past ten years are unique in British history in the scale of
:40:04. > :40:09.the immigration. Was that intentional by Labour? No. That's
:40:09. > :40:16.claptrap about an open door policy is just that - claptrap. We did
:40:16. > :40:21.agree in 2004, wait as a different world. We had 600,000 vacancy sis,
:40:21. > :40:25.an we also felt if we lowed Polish and I think it it was Czech
:40:25. > :40:29.Republic as well, Polish in particular it would form a liaison
:40:29. > :40:33.with them for things we wanted to do in Europe. White have happened
:40:33. > :40:38.anyway, within three or four years, but in hindsight the numbers were
:40:38. > :40:41.much bigger. It did cause problems in communities. It did cause a
:40:41. > :40:45.shock. Did you lose control over it? Don't think we ever lost
:40:45. > :40:49.control. If you look at net migration, it was coming down. The
:40:49. > :40:54.hate gone up in the two years since this Government has been in. If you
:40:54. > :41:01.look at France, Germany... migration was 50,000 a year when
:41:01. > :41:06.you came in and when you left it was 200,000. It was 13,000.
:41:06. > :41:12.migration was 50,000 in 1997. Earth was 200,000 and more when you left
:41:12. > :41:21.power. Whether you lost control of it is not a matter, but it's a huge
:41:21. > :41:26.increase. That's not right. It was 163,000. 200,000 was the high point.
:41:26. > :41:31.From 50,000? No, it was 50,000 way back. If you look at what the UN
:41:31. > :41:35.section populations are moving around, globalisation in terms of
:41:35. > :41:39.population movement, affected all countries. It affected Germany and
:41:39. > :41:44.France more than us. It has affected London more than any other
:41:44. > :41:48.place in brifpbt it may be the badge of an international city
:41:48. > :41:53.state that people who regard themselves as white British are now
:41:53. > :41:56.a minority in the capital. Is that because London tpwhrongs the world
:41:56. > :42:01.now? What the census can't record is the change the attitude. I sense
:42:01. > :42:07.there's been a big change in attitude over the 20 years. The
:42:07. > :42:13.Brixton riot in 1981. Then the mixed race element of London had a
:42:13. > :42:17.certain edgyness to it. People were quite tense about it. Today there
:42:17. > :42:23.is an almost universal celebration of London's diversity. It's a very
:42:23. > :42:26.big change. In terms of attitudes to immigration, to mixed race
:42:26. > :42:31.marriage, attitudes to the diversity now, you must have
:42:31. > :42:36.noticed a huge change. This country has changed its attitude. Yes, but
:42:36. > :42:41.ten years from the last census to now, it is neerbl a generational
:42:41. > :42:46.gap. You look at -- nearly a generational gap. You look at
:42:46. > :42:50.children's TV for example, that's where I hail from. Havingeth mix
:42:50. > :42:55.minorities on most programmes these days, it becomes a norm. It is par
:42:55. > :43:01.for the course. But it was unusual when you started, was it not?
:43:01. > :43:06.remember when I got my job, the headline was first British Asian
:43:06. > :43:12.Blue Peter presenter. Now it is neither here nor there really.
:43:12. > :43:15.yesterday we had the first Sikh turban-wearing guards man. We've
:43:15. > :43:17.run out of time. That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us,
:43:17. > :43:20.because with gay marriage all the rage, it's "Westminster Village
:43:20. > :43:23.People" night at Annabel's tonight. Hank the Cowboy, and Brad the
:43:23. > :43:26.Leatherman will be joined onstage by Alan the Postman and Michael the
:43:26. > :43:35.Train Driver for a heartfelt rendition of YMCA. These must be
:43:35. > :43:42.the scary "unintended consequences" Baroness Warsi warned us about. But