:00:16. > :00:21.$:/STARTFEED. N theite, is it the Final Countdown for Britain in
:00:21. > :00:26.Europe? The Prime Minister finally takes to the stage and offers an
:00:26. > :00:30.in-out referendum on leaving the European Union. We'll give the
:00:30. > :00:36.British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice.
:00:36. > :00:42.former Tory MP, now UKIP supporter, Neil Hamilton, isn't cheering.
:00:42. > :00:46.What's all the fuss about? Dave made a cast iron promise of a
:00:46. > :00:48.referendum on the EU before the last election. He broke it. We've
:00:48. > :00:53.last election. He broke it. We've been had before. As world leaders
:00:53. > :00:58.party in one of Europe's top ski resorts, is it the economy, rather
:00:58. > :01:03.than Europe, that Mr Cameron should be banging on about? ITV news's
:01:03. > :01:09.Business Editor, Laura Kuenssberg, is counting down the figures.
:01:09. > :01:12.two, one... Could we be on the verge of a triple dip? Is it much
:01:13. > :01:20.more fun to pal around in Davos talking about Europe. The debt
:01:20. > :01:25.mountain is high and growing every day. Can Government or parents do
:01:25. > :01:30.anything about the pornographication of society? Two
:01:30. > :01:38.former teeny bopers Katherine Ryan and Lowri Turner will be performing
:01:38. > :01:43.on the This Week stage. Government think it's us parents. The idea
:01:43. > :01:47.that I could do anything to get on the Internet. I have a daughter and
:01:47. > :01:57.she thinks she's sending these third degree duck face photos to
:01:57. > :02:12.
:02:12. > :02:17.anyone on the Internet, she's wrong, it's my business and I'll end it.
:02:17. > :02:22.You join us this week banging the Westminster head board in a eye-
:02:22. > :02:26.rolling state of unbridled political ecstasy brought to a
:02:26. > :02:31.shuttering climax by David Cameron's long-awaited speech on
:02:31. > :02:36.the European Union. Oh how he's teased and toyed with us, but now
:02:36. > :02:42.he's finally come out with it and asked us to lie back and think of
:02:42. > :02:46.Europe, at least until 2017. He's made his backbenchers purr with
:02:46. > :02:52.delight and partly satisfied Mrs Bone in the process by doing his
:02:52. > :02:55.best to tempt voters away from the forbidden vote that's in UKIP.
:02:55. > :03:01.After handcuffing himself to an in- out vote in the next Parliament,
:03:01. > :03:06.think of the next Tory manifesto as 50 Shades of Referendum for kinky
:03:06. > :03:16.Euro-Sceptics. Let's face it, nothing quite tit lates a Tory like
:03:16. > :03:20.the idea of pulling out of Europe. It's the single biggest erogenous
:03:20. > :03:25.zone outside of Michael Portillo's dressing room. And so for those who
:03:25. > :03:31.regret getting into the bed with the EU, there's only one guaranteed
:03:31. > :03:41.way of avoiding impreg nation via ever-closer union, the withdrawal
:03:41. > :03:43.
:03:43. > :03:47.method otherwise known as politicus iterruptus. Speaking of those with
:03:47. > :03:52.strange political forget tishs, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two
:03:52. > :04:01.men who shouldn't really be on anyone's menu. The mackerel pate
:04:01. > :04:09.and horse starter of the late-night political chat, I speak of man on
:04:09. > :04:15.the left, Alan Johnson and Michael choo choo Portillo. I don't think
:04:15. > :04:23.the United States will prevail. There's no peace process. Iran will
:04:23. > :04:25.get nuclear weapons and the United States will... Cheery chap. It's
:04:25. > :04:32.not always worth going to Prime Minister's Questions but this week
:04:32. > :04:37.it was. The atmosphere was good. I just like Ming Campbell bringing
:04:37. > :04:46.lefty to it. At the moment, Michael Heseltine seems to be the only Tory
:04:46. > :04:52.who knows how to talk about growth. There was a question about whether
:04:52. > :04:56.there would be Michael Heseltine being asked to do an inquiry which
:04:56. > :05:00.was an excellent question. I have to say, David Cameron gave a great
:05:00. > :05:04.answer too. Michael Heseltine would like to do that. Do it without
:05:04. > :05:08.being asked! I know many of you are quivering with excitement at the
:05:08. > :05:15.memory of call me Dave's speech and the prospect of a euro referendum.
:05:15. > :05:22.We at This Week like to provide the utmost in extreme titilation. So
:05:22. > :05:26.what more could you ask for than former Tory minister, now UKIP
:05:26. > :05:36.supporter Neil Hamilton giving us his Day of the Week.
:05:36. > :05:47.
:05:47. > :05:52.# We're jammin'... # Mm, jam, another quintessential
:05:52. > :05:55.British industry the EU's been trying to suffocate with rules and
:05:55. > :05:59.regular laces. David Cameron mange he's cooked up a storm in his
:05:59. > :06:06.speech about Britain's future relationship with the EU. But once
:06:06. > :06:12.the froth defeated the announcement of his in-out referendum, people
:06:12. > :06:22.should see it for what they are, a sticky sweet confection without
:06:22. > :06:29.
:06:29. > :06:37.depth or substance. Urgh, let's If call me Dave really cared about
:06:37. > :06:46.the problems, he'd be sorting out the sticky issues of our membership
:06:46. > :06:49.now. That's presuming the Tories will win, a big if for the man who
:06:49. > :06:55.couldn't even beat the hapless Gordon Brown.
:06:55. > :06:59.To make matters worse, the PM's given us virtually no clue as to
:06:59. > :07:03.what powers he'll be renegotiating. He must take us for mugs if he
:07:03. > :07:07.thinks we'll believe that any European leader would agree to hand
:07:07. > :07:12.over any serious powers we have handed over in the last 40 years.
:07:12. > :07:16.It does what it says on the jar, that's what the UKIP party's all
:07:16. > :07:21.about and always will be. So what then? Are we supposed to believe
:07:21. > :07:28.he's going to admit failing in his negotiations and vote to leave the
:07:28. > :07:35.EU? He's made perfectly clear that he'll back the eurocrats. He'll be
:07:35. > :07:37.campaigning to keep us in this sticky gloopy morass of the EU come
:07:37. > :07:42.what may. He's playing politics with the
:07:42. > :07:52.truth and our country's future. It's just a ruse to stop himself
:07:52. > :08:12.
:08:12. > :08:15.If the vote takes place, UKIP will be the only mainstream political
:08:15. > :08:25.party campaigning to restore our independence and get Britain out.
:08:25. > :08:27.
:08:27. > :08:34.Then it really will be jam for everyone! Neil Hamilton from
:08:34. > :08:44.England Preserves in Bermondsey South London to Westminster and
:08:44. > :08:55.
:08:55. > :08:58.welcome to you both. Governments do all sorts of things without a
:08:58. > :09:04.mandate, whatever that means. Couldn't get one through the
:09:04. > :09:07.Commons? Well, who knows. He's the Prime Minister. That's a secondary
:09:07. > :09:10.issue anyway whether he can or can't isn't it? What matters is
:09:10. > :09:17.whether the people of this country, for the first time in 40 years,
:09:17. > :09:21.should have a voice in this matter. The fact is, he's got the 015
:09:21. > :09:25.election. You want an in-out referendum. The only realistic way
:09:25. > :09:27.to secure that if you want it is to vote Tory, not UKIP. You probably
:09:28. > :09:31.won't even win a seat, never mind form a Government? We are
:09:31. > :09:36.interested in the arguments, not in the kind of political manipulations
:09:36. > :09:40.of the Westminster elite. I thought you wanted an in-out referendum?
:09:40. > :09:46.do. The only way to get that is to vote Tory? On the experience so far,
:09:46. > :09:49.the Tory party in the last election promised a referendum which was
:09:49. > :09:54.reneged on afterwards. This is a step along the way, if it wasn't
:09:54. > :09:57.for UKIP, we wouldn't be talking in these terms. I understand that, but
:09:57. > :10:01.the logic of your position, you have no chance of delivering a
:10:02. > :10:05.referendum. We are delivering this one. David Cameron may well renege
:10:05. > :10:09.on you again, I understand that, but the only show in town is his
:10:09. > :10:12.in-out referendum if that's your thing? We are not playing political
:10:12. > :10:18.games. We are putting before the British people a choice. They can
:10:18. > :10:23.vote for us or for other parties. What we are doing is actually
:10:23. > :10:27.generating this political debate and taking it forward. If it wasn't
:10:27. > :10:31.for us, David Cameron would not have promised this referendum, we
:10:31. > :10:35.wouldn't even be arguing about it, because he started this Parliament
:10:35. > :10:40.by saying, we mustn't bang on about Europe and he is now because of
:10:40. > :10:44.UKIP entirely. The polls have shown for years that this country has no
:10:44. > :10:50.appetite for ever closer union. There's another poll tonight
:10:50. > :10:53.showing that. There's a huge majority for a semi-detached
:10:53. > :10:56.relationship with Brussels. What's wrong with David Cameron trying to
:10:57. > :11:00.deliver what the country wants? challenge that. There's a lot of
:11:00. > :11:06.evidence from polls that about 35% of the country is keen on the
:11:06. > :11:08.European Union. I didn't say that. I said there's no time for an ever
:11:08. > :11:14.closer union? Never had that question put to them. There was a
:11:14. > :11:20.poll in last Sunday's paper when asked would it be right to
:11:20. > :11:24.repatriate powers, it was 60-20. Shall I tell you something about
:11:24. > :11:33.polls? If you ask people do you want to stay in the European Union,
:11:33. > :11:37.they tend to say a very substantial proportion, they say yes. If they
:11:37. > :11:45.want repatriated powers and nobody's talked about which powers,
:11:45. > :11:52.they tend to say no. A lot turns on the question. I lived at the time...
:11:52. > :11:58.Lets me finish. The general point is that this is a Euro-sceptic
:11:58. > :12:01.country? It was in 197 3 and we managed to win it with a
:12:01. > :12:08.substantial majority in every region except Orkney and Shetland
:12:08. > :12:13.because they'd heard the case at last. Let's come back to my point.
:12:13. > :12:17.What is wrong with David Cameron going down this road? Primarily,
:12:17. > :12:22.there are two things seriously wrong with it. He has no knowledge
:12:22. > :12:26.at all to be sure that the other countries will negotiate. He's
:12:26. > :12:30.risking almost everything on the ability to negotiate, specifically
:12:30. > :12:36.for Britain changes. We know following the reactions of the
:12:36. > :12:42.European leaders he's not likely to get that support from anybody, so
:12:42. > :12:46.that's misleading. Secondly, I think bigger reasons that he's
:12:46. > :12:51.wrong is because he's essentially presenting Britain a set of
:12:51. > :12:54.parochial questions and we have a much, much bigger role in the world
:12:54. > :12:59.than that. We can govern ourselves. Of course we can.? You said before
:12:59. > :13:04.Christmas that no party would go into the next election offering a
:13:04. > :13:10.referendum, Michael? I must have meant no sensible party. So your
:13:10. > :13:15.own party is not sensible? I'm not a member of any party. But you were
:13:15. > :13:19.a member for a long time and a Euro-sceptic? I don't think it's
:13:20. > :13:23.sensible to promise a referendum in four years' time when you don't
:13:23. > :13:28.know what the situation will be. It's an extraordinary gamble. I
:13:28. > :13:32.tend to agree with that bit of Neil's analysis a moment ago where
:13:32. > :13:35.Neil said that what the Prime Minister was doing was going to
:13:35. > :13:39.have a ritualistic negotiation and we know that whatever the limited
:13:39. > :13:42.result of that negotiation is, he's going to recommend that we stay in
:13:43. > :13:45.the European Union. What he's banking on, I think, is that he
:13:45. > :13:49.doesn't much like the European Union but is afraid to leave it and
:13:49. > :13:55.he's banking on British people being in exactly the same place,
:13:55. > :13:59.they are afraid to leave it but may not like it. He may be right.
:13:59. > :14:03.There's one problem which you put your finger on just now, you say
:14:03. > :14:07.he's offering negotiation. We have no reason to believe there will be
:14:07. > :14:11.a serious negotiation or can be, and many people think that. In
:14:12. > :14:15.which case, how is the Prime Minister expected to hang on for
:14:15. > :14:18.four years of uncertainty about whether or not there'll be
:14:18. > :14:28.negotiation. You are quite right, you can't have a referendum about
:14:28. > :14:29.
:14:29. > :14:36.something you don't know about. $:/STARTFEED. Your party promised a
:14:36. > :14:40.referendum in 1975. You mean the Labour Party, in 1975?
:14:40. > :14:48.promptsed a referendum in 1975 even when you didn't know what the
:14:48. > :14:55.outcome was going to be. I think I'm the only one still in the party
:14:55. > :15:05.amongst these four here. I joined the Anti-Common Market League in
:15:05. > :15:08.1967. He means UKIP. Ed Miliband was right. It a difficult, quite
:15:08. > :15:14.courageous thing to do. No Prime Minister in his right mind would
:15:14. > :15:16.like to leave the European Union. No Prime Minister with the biggest
:15:16. > :15:20.economic crisis in European history would want to put leaving the
:15:20. > :15:24.European Union on the agenda. Where Cameron was right is the European
:15:24. > :15:28.Union needs to change and there needs to be a negotiation about
:15:28. > :15:33.this. This is the worst way to Government you don't set an
:15:33. > :15:39.ultimatum, set a deadline, lose friends and allies and then say you
:15:39. > :15:43.are going to do a major piece of manoeuvring. Cameron doesn't have a
:15:43. > :15:46.single ally amongst European leaders on this so-called
:15:46. > :15:52.renegotiation. They are interested in building a new country. That's
:15:52. > :15:58.what the European project is about. Evercloser union is the essence of
:15:58. > :16:06.this European project and has been since day one. The idea of changing
:16:06. > :16:11.the preamble to having a looser union is preposterous. The British
:16:11. > :16:14.people feel profoundly uncomfortable in the European Union.
:16:14. > :16:18.They thought they were joining a club whose rules didn't change. The
:16:19. > :16:26.contradiction in the speech is that none of that really deep-seated
:16:26. > :16:32.discomfort will be dealt with by dangering the CAP for Working Time
:16:32. > :16:34.Directive. Alan, explain in a sentence Labour's policy on the
:16:34. > :16:38.referendum. We support the legislation that went through
:16:38. > :16:42.Parliament that said that if there's a major transfer of power
:16:42. > :16:45.away from the UK to Brussels, the British people should have a say on
:16:45. > :16:51.it. We are the only party that gave the British people a say on this
:16:51. > :16:56.issue. But hold on, in the Commons you voted against that legislation.
:16:56. > :17:01.But we are now accepting it. explain Labour's policy on an
:17:01. > :17:05.in/out referendum. We would not put an in/out referendum. This is
:17:05. > :17:10.entire through wrong time to talk about an in/out referendum. Not
:17:10. > :17:14.least because it doesn't help you to negotiate the changes. So is
:17:14. > :17:19.Labour against the referendum? Miliband said the word no when
:17:19. > :17:25.David Cameron asked him the question. Douglas Alex ander did
:17:25. > :17:29.the rounds saying it was not like that. Hang on Neil, on devolution
:17:29. > :17:32.in Scotland we had a referendum. On a London Mayor we will a referendum.
:17:32. > :17:38.The only referendums in this country about constitutional issues
:17:38. > :17:44.have been under a Labour Government. Including the one about Europe.
:17:44. > :17:50.is not the time to be putting an in/out referendum on the table.
:17:50. > :17:53.we can have one in Scotland about Scottish independence, why not one
:17:53. > :17:57.in Britain about British independence? We've been in the
:17:57. > :18:05.European Union, it was two-and-a- half years when we had the
:18:05. > :18:09.referendum in 1975. I want to ask Shirley William as question. Mr
:18:09. > :18:12.Cameron's made it clear even if they doesn't get an overall
:18:12. > :18:17.majority but still stays as Prime Minister in a hung Parliament, he
:18:17. > :18:21.intends to pursue. This would that be a deal breaker for the Lib Dems
:18:21. > :18:25.staying in coalition with the Tories? I think pretty clearly. The
:18:25. > :18:29.Prime Minister said that himself. If you remember, if the Liberal
:18:29. > :18:32.Democrats or any other party that he might go into coalition with
:18:32. > :18:36.after the next election if there is no clear majority for the
:18:36. > :18:42.Conservatives, he would not be able to work with the they didn't accept
:18:42. > :18:52.the outcome of the negotiation. is it a deal breaker for the Lib
:18:52. > :18:58.Dems? I expect so and for Labour as well. The Tories aren't going to
:18:58. > :19:03.ask Labour in a coalition. I could have said the SNP. To stick to this
:19:03. > :19:09.line, if there is no way they could stay in Government with the Tories,
:19:09. > :19:15.you could stay in Government and abstain. It is highly unlikely in
:19:15. > :19:21.practice. Ours is a deeply European part. Will there be a referendum
:19:22. > :19:31.in/out in 2017? No. Because David Cameron won't be Prime Minister.
:19:32. > :19:34.
:19:34. > :19:37.Will there? No. Uribe warning, Mr Cameron, they don't believe you.
:19:37. > :19:40.Now it's late, very late - "Babestation" late. But what does
:19:40. > :19:45.that actually mean for society, and especially those without a credit
:19:45. > :19:48.card? Waiting in the wings, comedian Kathryn Ryan, and
:19:48. > :19:55.broadcaster Lowri Turner, here to talk about the pornification of
:19:55. > :19:59.society, whether it matters, and what can be done. And for those of
:19:59. > :20:01.you who certainly don't matter and for whom nothing can be done, you
:20:01. > :20:11.can register your inconsequential existence on That Twitter, That
:20:11. > :20:17.Fleecebook, and That Interweb. Now, it's not all been about Europe
:20:17. > :20:19.this week, you know. It's also been about, well, Europe. That is, the
:20:19. > :20:23.annual international shindig that takes place in the Swiss Alps
:20:23. > :20:27.called Davos. The Prime Minister hopped on a plane to join the great
:20:27. > :20:32.and the good - and some bankers - hoping to talk not just about
:20:32. > :20:36.Europe. But, well, on the agenda turned out to be, er, Europe. You
:20:36. > :20:38.get the idea. So, we turned to friend of ours, Laura Kuenssberg,
:20:38. > :20:42.now Business Editor of ITV News, who certainly thinks there are
:20:42. > :20:52.other things to think about. This is her rather chilly roundup of the
:20:52. > :21:04.
:21:04. > :21:10.Winter is truly here. It is properly cold, and as the first
:21:10. > :21:14.flurry hit, airports and schools around the country were closed. So,
:21:14. > :21:19.as everything grinds to an icy hat, what better time to try out a new
:21:19. > :21:26.winter sport. The last time you made me do this, Andrew, we went
:21:26. > :21:36.skiing. At least I had actually done this before. This time, how
:21:36. > :21:40.
:21:40. > :21:46.hard ordaining rows can it really -- ordaining rows. The PM had to
:21:46. > :21:51.navigate some treacherous condition this is week. After binning his big
:21:51. > :21:57.speech on Europe, new peaks of excitement were reached as he took
:21:57. > :22:01.the gamble of his Premiership. next Conservative manifesto in 2015
:22:01. > :22:04.will ask for a mandate from the British people for a Conservative
:22:04. > :22:08.Government to negotiate a new settlement with our European
:22:08. > :22:13.partners in the next Parliament. And when we've negotiated that new
:22:13. > :22:23.settlement, we will give the British people a referendum, with a
:22:23. > :22:27.
:22:27. > :22:32.very simple inor out choice. might be freezing outside, but it
:22:32. > :22:36.has warmed up his backbenchers. If the calculated complicated move was
:22:36. > :22:40.meant to cheer them up, it certainly worked. At least for now.
:22:40. > :22:45.And Ed Miliband, he might have lost his grip. Of course, he doesn't
:22:45. > :22:49.want to referendum. At least not that kind. The only thing that's
:22:49. > :22:53.changed is a few months ago when he said he was against an in/out
:22:53. > :22:57.referendum is not the situation in Europe but the situation in the
:22:57. > :23:02.Tory Party. Why doesn't he admit it. He's been driven to it not by the
:23:02. > :23:10.national interest but been dragged to it by his party? The most basic
:23:10. > :23:14.question of all is, do you want a referendum? I do. Does he?
:23:14. > :23:20.position is no, we don't want an in/out referendum. But as Dave
:23:20. > :23:24.himself once knew, win the toirs start talking about Europe, it is a
:23:24. > :23:29.slippery slope - fories. And that slides away from what most of us
:23:29. > :23:34.care about so much more - sorting out the economy. And right now,
:23:34. > :23:38.that's about as easy as climbing Everest in a pair of trainers.
:23:39. > :23:42.more concerned about all the cuts at the moment. I think we need to
:23:42. > :23:52.be worrying more about what's happening at home rather than
:23:52. > :23:59.
:23:59. > :24:04.Although unemployment continues to defy gravity, the debt mountain is
:24:04. > :24:08.still high and getting even higher and wages are still stuck in the
:24:08. > :24:12.Ice Age. Although the IMF warned George Osborne again he might have
:24:13. > :24:18.to change away from his route to the summit, he is still sticking to
:24:18. > :24:23.his plan A, even though we know it is going to take longer than he
:24:23. > :24:27.wanted of the when he and the PM jetted off the snowy climes, it all
:24:27. > :24:31.inevitably came back to yofrpblt There is a debate under way already
:24:31. > :24:35.about Britain's place in the European Union. Business know that.
:24:35. > :24:38.And it is much better to be frank and open about that and set out the
:24:38. > :24:41.pathway where we are going to resolve this issue in a way that
:24:41. > :24:45.will actually benefit business, because we'll end up with a more
:24:45. > :24:51.competitive, more open European Union. But also near the snowy
:24:51. > :24:54.peaks is a certain former Prime Minister. Got he have to say?
:24:54. > :24:57.can't be in Britain's interest in the 21st century to leave the
:24:57. > :25:00.biggest political union, the biggest business and commercial
:25:00. > :25:09.market in the world. And therefore why put it on the agenda? And why
:25:10. > :25:15.put it on now? Nearly there. Just days before,
:25:15. > :25:19.Dave was Khanling his heir to Blair with a sobering statement in the
:25:19. > :25:23.Commons on the terrorist outrage in Algeria. We must frustrate the
:25:23. > :25:28.terrorists with our security. We must beat them militarily. We must
:25:28. > :25:31.address the poisonous narrative they feed on. We must close down
:25:32. > :25:36.the ungoverned space in which they thrive and deal with the grievances
:25:36. > :25:40.they use to garden support. It was a tricky week for Prince Harry too.
:25:40. > :25:46.Happy to be home safely from Afghanistan but in a little bit of
:25:46. > :25:50.trouble, having had a pop at the press. All it does is upset me and
:25:50. > :25:53.anger me that they can write what they do, not just about me but
:25:53. > :25:57.everything. This is hard work but I think we are nearly there. Unlike
:25:57. > :26:01.the Government, who have got a lot more hard work to do. Because while
:26:01. > :26:06.the referendum promise caused lots of excitement this week, it will
:26:06. > :26:10.inevitably die down, the focus return to austerity Britain. And
:26:10. > :26:14.for more than 5,000 members of the military this week, not Prince
:26:14. > :26:19.Harry, that meant a different promise of a P456789 Yesterday the
:26:19. > :26:24.Prime Minister rightly spoke of the urgency of the Islamest terror
:26:24. > :26:28.threat to the UK from north Africa. But in a carry on regardless
:26:28. > :26:33.strategy, the next day the Ministry of Defence announces 5,000 Army
:26:33. > :26:37.redundancies. As the Governor of the Bank of
:26:37. > :26:43.England so heavily reminded us this week, the economy has probably
:26:43. > :26:47.caught a chill since the heady days of the summer, so the PM should be
:26:48. > :26:52.braced for bad GDP numbers in the morning. Possibly the start of that
:26:52. > :27:02.dreaded triple dip. Although we may have finally reached the top, sad
:27:02. > :27:04.
:27:04. > :27:10.to say there's a risk. We may all still be going down.
:27:10. > :27:13.Laura Kuenssberg was actually in Covent Garden but he's got her I on
:27:13. > :27:17.Everest. Michael, inflation is still high,
:27:17. > :27:21.it has stopped falling. The economy probably stopped growing in the
:27:21. > :27:25.last quarter of 2012. The deficit is rising, sterling is slipping,
:27:25. > :27:29.beyond beelds are up. Living standards are squeezed. In what way
:27:29. > :27:33.is coalition economic policy working? It is working in the sense
:27:34. > :27:37.that we are paying 2% for our debt and much of Europe is paying 5%.
:27:37. > :27:41.That's because of the banks printing so much money. That's not
:27:41. > :27:43.the Government doing that. The bank wouldn't be doing it without the
:27:43. > :27:46.Government's permission. But it's the monetary policy in the hands of
:27:46. > :27:51.the Bank of England. Only by printing money that interest rates
:27:51. > :27:56.are low. It is not changing any of these things.. Fund mentally
:27:56. > :28:00.because we are not in the euro that we are able to print our own money
:28:00. > :28:04.and devalue the pound that. May not be a bad thing. It may be the right
:28:04. > :28:08.thing to do to remain competitive. My point is the austerity programme
:28:08. > :28:13.is sufficiently robust for the market to continue to be willing to
:28:13. > :28:17.lend the Government at 23. You say that but bond yields are rising and
:28:17. > :28:21.the cost of ensuring British debt sup 70% in the past couple of
:28:21. > :28:25.months. The markets are beginning to lose confidence in this strategy.
:28:25. > :28:30.I agree that is exactly what's happening but it hasn't happened
:28:30. > :28:37.yet. If the Government war to change its plan, white happen
:28:37. > :28:42.faster. Despite this litany of failures, thrant's more but I --
:28:42. > :28:46.and there's more, but the polls show people don't trust Labour on
:28:46. > :28:52.the economy. Why? That will change. I can't answer that question.
:28:52. > :28:55.can but you just won't. No. I think it is very difficult to turn around
:28:55. > :29:00.in one parliamentary term. If you lost the last election, and we lost
:29:00. > :29:10.it, and it was on our watch that the fiscal deficit grew, then it is
:29:10. > :29:15.
:29:15. > :29:19.very difficult to row that back. $:/STARTFEED. Michael has a tough
:29:19. > :29:22.job defending that line. We were both Shadow chance lor. When I was
:29:22. > :29:26.Shadow Chancellor three years ago, George Osborne said to me, the bit
:29:26. > :29:31.that matters, that we still need there when the economy recovers, it
:29:31. > :29:36.was 4., he said in three years' time, it will be 1.9. The three
:29:36. > :29:41.years have passed, it's 4.3 and if it wasn't for the one-off boost of
:29:42. > :29:46.Post Office pensions, if it wasn't for quantitative easing and for the
:29:46. > :29:52.mobile spectrum auction which hasn't taken place yet, it would be
:29:52. > :29:56.4.9. Abject failure that is. Can I make a point that might help Alan
:29:56. > :30:00.with the answer. Because the situation is as grave as it is,
:30:00. > :30:06.that's really entered the consciousness and mentality of most
:30:06. > :30:10.people in the country and it's why they are putting up with falling
:30:10. > :30:13.living standards and higher taxes and radical reforms to schools and
:30:13. > :30:17.welfare. It's an historic moment in that sense. The reason it's like
:30:17. > :30:20.that is that people do believe the situation's bad. The situation
:30:20. > :30:24.being bad isn't great for the Government but in a way it's not
:30:24. > :30:29.bad for the Government because people understand the limitations
:30:30. > :30:32.of what can be done. People expect this to be turning it around.
:30:32. > :30:36.night's Tory party political broadcast, the Government claimed
:30:36. > :30:44.it was paying down the debt. That's what it said. In fact, it's
:30:44. > :30:52.increasing the debt by 60%. Going from �900 billion to �1.5 trillion.
:30:52. > :30:58.Mr Cameron, is he being deceitful or is he ignorant about economics?
:30:58. > :31:03.I'm not getting into that! Why not? It's not literally true to say that
:31:03. > :31:07.we are paying down... Well... What's true is that the deficit
:31:07. > :31:12.from one year to the next may be reduced. That's entirely different.
:31:12. > :31:15.The debt and the deficit are not the same thing. Is he hoping that
:31:15. > :31:19.some of us don't know that snfrpblgt I don't know whether he
:31:19. > :31:23.wrote the party political broadcast, but what I am saying to you is that
:31:23. > :31:29.what can be claimed is that it's possible, and I wouldn't put it
:31:29. > :31:34.higher than that, that the deficit could be reduced from year to year.
:31:34. > :31:39.It's rising. Exactly. Which is not in the game plan. In north Africa
:31:39. > :31:46.and Algeria, you listened to Mr Cameron in the Commons Alan, there
:31:46. > :31:49.were echoes of Mr Blair post-9/11. With we being run by another
:31:49. > :31:54.interventionist? He did the right thing there and he was very
:31:54. > :32:01.statesmanlike and he does that very, very well. I think north Africa
:32:02. > :32:05.which I think Churchill described as the soft underbelly of Europe.
:32:05. > :32:10.That's unfortunate that the next day came the news about job losses
:32:10. > :32:14.and there's another tranche to come in 2014. It won't be troops coming
:32:14. > :32:18.from Afghanistan to get their people, it will be next year and he
:32:18. > :32:25.really does have to look at this and maybe think that there does
:32:25. > :32:31.have to be savings in defence. His job is Defence of the Realm.
:32:31. > :32:35.don't have to be a defence specialist to hear the Prime
:32:35. > :32:39.Minister saying he'll do whatever it takes to beat the Jihadists
:32:39. > :32:44.terror, then the next day 5,000 soldiers will be made redundant?
:32:44. > :32:48.And we are maintaining nuclear deterrent which is of no use to us
:32:48. > :32:53.what saefr and building aircraft carriers that don't have any
:32:53. > :32:59.aircraft on them. -- whatsoever. they are than that, it's going
:32:59. > :33:06.well? No, the British and French policy is to bring down dictators
:33:06. > :33:12.to create power vacuums. The French government's bolstering its
:33:12. > :33:16.dictatorship. But Kofi Annan told us last week that it began across
:33:16. > :33:20.the border from Libya with heavily armed men. Indeed. Prince Harry
:33:20. > :33:26.hates the media, we saw that in the clip, in the report. Do they treat
:33:26. > :33:29.him like a hero in Afghanistan anyway? He hates the media.
:33:29. > :33:34.Remember what happened to his mother, you can understand that.
:33:34. > :33:38.Other than that, he hates it for other reasons. I kind of feel a lot
:33:38. > :33:44.of sympathy with him. The association with playing video
:33:45. > :33:52.games and killing people was very unfortunate, but he's not a
:33:52. > :33:57.polished media performer. It was a very frank interview and a damaging
:33:57. > :34:02.one I think. I think it was damaging in some ways. For example,
:34:02. > :34:06.I think it's made him more of a target. But I think on the other
:34:06. > :34:11.hand the British public will be so impressed that someone so senior in
:34:11. > :34:14.the Royal Family is putting himself at risk and is in a combat roll.
:34:14. > :34:22.saw that in the film. This week isn't a top drawer programme, you
:34:22. > :34:25.probably worked that out yourself, more like a top shelf programme to
:34:25. > :34:29.be honest, sometimes some people are ashamed to admit that. Is the
:34:29. > :34:35.rest of society catching up with our low standards by putting
:34:35. > :34:41.pressure on polices and parents to stem the flow of indecent images
:34:41. > :34:50.and material? Maybe. That's why we decided to put pornification in
:34:50. > :34:54.this week's spotlight. There is the commercialism,
:34:54. > :34:58.technology and bad sex education? An increasing sexualised society
:34:58. > :35:02.presents challenges for parents and politicians. This week, our own
:35:02. > :35:06.Diane Abbott expressed her concerns by suggesting early intervention
:35:06. > :35:12.was part of the answer. What you have to look at is, children at
:35:12. > :35:16.primary school age have access to mobile phones and they can access
:35:16. > :35:21.pornography. Teaching children about this, which is in a general
:35:21. > :35:28.way suitable for children, has to start at primary school age.
:35:28. > :35:34.Prime Minister's children's adviser Claire Perry urged parents to snoop
:35:34. > :35:39.on their kids' mobile exchanges. Phone hacking? Whose responsibility
:35:40. > :35:42.is it to stop it? In my view it's a partnership. Parents have got to be
:35:42. > :35:47.confident about taking the responsibility for keeping their
:35:47. > :35:52.kids safe in the online world as we do in the offline world. Even
:35:52. > :35:56.academics like Mary Beard aren't safe from the wrath of
:35:56. > :36:02.sexualisation after she was subject to violent abuse about her
:36:02. > :36:05.appearance following last week's Question Time. What will it take to
:36:05. > :36:10.prevent the pornification of society? Diane says a national
:36:10. > :36:16.conversation will do it, but the way David Cameron's going, we could
:36:16. > :36:21.get a referendum on it after the next election.
:36:21. > :36:27.Who is that woman?! Seen her somewhere before, can't quite place
:36:27. > :36:32.her! Katherine and Lowri, great to see you. Do you agree with Diane
:36:32. > :36:37.that society's become more sexualised and pornifyed? I think
:36:37. > :36:41.the consumption rate is quicker because of online pornography and
:36:41. > :36:45.everything. You used to have to reach it off the top shelf to see
:36:45. > :36:51.it. Now it's everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. So definitely I would
:36:51. > :36:55.agree. Lowri, as a parent, do you worry? Children grow up in a world
:36:55. > :36:59.where it's much easier to come across sex and porn as a child?
:36:59. > :37:03.Absolutely. I have to say that I feel, as a parent, that the
:37:03. > :37:08.Government is expecting me to be able to police my children on this
:37:08. > :37:12.and I asked my son who's almost 13 how he would feel if I read his e-
:37:12. > :37:16.mails, looked at his Facebook, all that sort of stuff, and he said
:37:16. > :37:21."Mum, do you have any idea how many ways I know how to wipe my e-mails
:37:21. > :37:25.and wipe my search history" and I don't, of course I don't, so
:37:25. > :37:33.actually, as parents, our kids outclass us on that. That's a
:37:33. > :37:38.practical reason. But in principle, if you could... No, my mother
:37:38. > :37:45.didn't read my diary. It's not a bad relationship when you start
:37:45. > :37:49.reading your husband's e-mails. checked my mobile on my way in. I
:37:49. > :37:54.cropped things and put things on Instagram. If you live in my house,
:37:54. > :38:00.if I own you... You don't own anybody though. Well, it depends on
:38:00. > :38:05.the child and the age and the boundaries being loosened with age
:38:05. > :38:08.and trust. But there are little girls createle their own
:38:08. > :38:12.pornography, taking photographs and putting them up on social
:38:12. > :38:17.networking sites letting their boyfriends or vice versa - probably
:38:17. > :38:23.never - film them. I asked my son who's at a comprehensive school,
:38:23. > :38:27.are you aware of this going on and he said no. Now, he's only 13, he's
:38:27. > :38:33.not 15 or 16 so I don't think it's going on in every classroom.
:38:33. > :38:36.snooping is not the answer, what is? I want the Government to
:38:36. > :38:43.enforce something that's there so that when I buy a computer - it's
:38:43. > :38:47.not just computers, it's PS3s, Xboxs, enforcing a porn-free zone.
:38:47. > :38:52.So you are not taking responsibility, you are expecting
:38:52. > :38:56.the Government to? Is that right? As parents, we can't do everything.
:38:56. > :39:00.But the Government can? Government can force the industry
:39:00. > :39:06.to take responsibility because they are the ones making all the money.
:39:06. > :39:11.How long do you think it will take before there is a piece of kit to
:39:11. > :39:13.stop kids doing that? You should arm kids with self-confidence. We
:39:13. > :39:17.shouldn't underestimate our children and assume that they are
:39:17. > :39:23.going to be victims of this porn culture because the girls that I
:39:23. > :39:26.meet who're friends of my son are not b unconfident. I don't think
:39:26. > :39:33.they'd be automatically doing stuff that their parents wouldn't like
:39:33. > :39:37.them to do. You are Canadian, Katherine, is the UK more
:39:37. > :39:42.sexualised, more into this pornification than other parts of
:39:42. > :39:47.the world do you think? In my experience, it's definitely
:39:47. > :39:51.different. I've lived in the UK for a long time, I'm a British mom and
:39:51. > :39:58.the difference with the girls here is the drinking culture's really
:39:58. > :40:02.strong and comes into it in lots of ways. I've heard stories of girls
:40:02. > :40:08.zipping down an alleyway with someone and there's something
:40:08. > :40:13.sexual, it's not as intimate as a kiss. Have the boys come to exnect
:40:14. > :40:18.because of the access to porn -- expect this? Social services
:40:18. > :40:21.celebrated in reality TV, that's everywhere. The drinking cull huh
:40:21. > :40:27.here is something I've never seen anywhere else before with the young
:40:27. > :40:33.girls. I mean, not everyone of them, of course not. Channel 4 News,
:40:33. > :40:37.which is not exactly overreactionary, a couple of weeks
:40:37. > :40:41.ago, exposed a degree of the sexualisation of texts and e-mails
:40:41. > :40:45.and so on. It was pretty concerning. They also had evidence that it was
:40:46. > :40:52.changing, particularly male attitudes to females in a bad way,
:40:52. > :40:56.in a way that any feminist would be appalled about? I agree. A lot of
:40:56. > :41:02.this has been framed around almost making the victims of this, the
:41:02. > :41:08.girls whose images are being circulated, making them feel
:41:08. > :41:12.responsible. What we should be saying is to our sons, this is not
:41:12. > :41:15.acceptable. Circulating certain images is illegal and you must
:41:15. > :41:19.respect women. It becomes part of education both in school and at
:41:19. > :41:26.home and, as a parent, my job is to have these conversations. My son
:41:26. > :41:30.will roll his eyes at me, you know, "Here she goes again" but I will do
:41:30. > :41:35.that. But the question is, are all parents doing this? Would you care
:41:35. > :41:39.to add to this conversation? must be a nightmare to try and make
:41:39. > :41:42.these decisions. I entirely agree that your child is your
:41:42. > :41:47.responsibility and ultimately if things are going badly, you want to
:41:47. > :41:51.know what is going wrong and need to save that child from a decision.
:41:51. > :41:54.I also agree that I would have been horrified if my parents were
:41:54. > :41:58.reading my private materials. My private materials when I was a kid
:41:58. > :42:05.were not putting me in danger and the private materials of your
:42:05. > :42:09.daughter could be putting her in danger. I raised two girls in the
:42:09. > :42:13.70s, but I don't know, there's never been a time where it's been
:42:13. > :42:17.safe out there for children who do not get the right parental advice
:42:17. > :42:21.et cetera, but Government ministers should not be lecturing to parents,
:42:21. > :42:25.number one, and with Lowri and Michael on this issue, I'm with you
:42:25. > :42:29.about accessing private information. If I would have done that to my
:42:29. > :42:36.daughter, let alone their mother, there would have been a breakdown
:42:36. > :42:41.of trust and that, there's no Government way to deal with this.
:42:41. > :42:43.What we don't know is the long-term impact of this, because this is the
:42:43. > :42:48.first young generation that's been subjected to almost anything you
:42:48. > :42:51.want to see on the net. We have no idea where this is going to end and
:42:51. > :42:56.it may not be good? Bless them because they can almost put
:42:56. > :43:01.anything on the net. If my daughter wants to keep a hand-written diary
:43:02. > :43:08.under her web that isn't going out on to the interweb, that's fine. If
:43:08. > :43:11.it's on the Internet, it's there forever. Thank goodness the
:43:11. > :43:19.sketches in my diary were not published. We wanted to see them.
:43:19. > :43:25.What are you up to? Embarking on my UK debut comedy tour next week. I
:43:25. > :43:30.love the UK comedy scene and am glad to be a part of it. I hope you
:43:30. > :43:34.will be back soon. Thanks. I'll put a word in with the producer. We are
:43:34. > :43:41.close. Thank you very much. That's your lot tonight. In a desperate
:43:41. > :43:49.effort to desexualise high society, Annabel's having a splash theme