:00:16. > :00:20.Tonight, join a battered and bruised This Week in casualty, as
:00:20. > :00:23.stemming the flow of immigrants moves up the political agenda, how
:00:23. > :00:31.critical will it get when Romanians and Bulgarians are free to work
:00:31. > :00:36.here next year? One Romanian cheeky girl gives her diagnosis. We only
:00:36. > :00:41.ever hear negative stories about Romania. But there are over 2,000
:00:41. > :00:47.Romanian doctors working in the UK. NHS boss Sir David Nicholson find
:00:47. > :00:49.himself a casualty of the crisis in Mid Staffs or can he cling to his
:00:49. > :00:57.job? Radio 5 Live presenter Victoria Derbyshire takes the
:00:57. > :01:04.political pulse. His career is still beating thanks to life-saving
:01:04. > :01:12.support. Are Justin Bieber's fans suffering a crisis of confidence?
:01:12. > :01:15.After the Bieber fails to treat them to a little TLC.
:01:15. > :01:20.Virtuoso superstar Nigel Kennedy soothes our brow. Don't worry
:01:20. > :01:30.Andrew, I won't keep you waiting. Come on you lions. Pop yourself on
:01:30. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:36.the couch and take your clothes off. Evening all. Welcome to This Week.
:01:36. > :01:40.The gaping political sinkhole at the heart of the BBC One schedule,
:01:40. > :01:47.plunging unsuspected viewers into an abyss of empty words, empty
:01:47. > :01:51.gestures and empty bottles of cheap German wine. You join us mixing our
:01:51. > :01:57.metaphors and drinks as we seingway from sink hogz to A holes and give
:01:57. > :02:01.a Justin Bieber shut out to our adoring teenage fans. Hello United
:02:01. > :02:06.Kingdom of London, are you ready to work? If you like your political
:02:06. > :02:08.comment devoid of all genuine emotion and more concerned with its
:02:09. > :02:11.hair and shirts than its credibility, you've come to the
:02:11. > :02:17.right place. Those tearful Beliebers who missed the last tube
:02:17. > :02:21.home, you now know how it feels to be in a hyperventilation type of
:02:21. > :02:26.This Week viewer, forced to stay up way beyond your bedtime, waiting
:02:26. > :02:30.around for hours for the main act to appear after a struggling
:02:30. > :02:34.supporting act fails to work the crowd into a frenzy of expectation.
:02:34. > :02:40.You know what I'm talking about, happens to us every week. Speaking
:02:40. > :02:43.of small brants who refuse to come out of their dressing room until
:02:43. > :02:48.the fruit is delivered and the merchandising pay cheque clears,
:02:48. > :02:57.I'm joined by two of Westminsters tastiest pieces of processed meat.
:02:57. > :03:02.Think of them as the prime English Bangor and spicy Spanish chorizo of
:03:03. > :03:08.late night tag. I speak of Alan 'AJ' Johnson and Michael 'choo
:03:09. > :03:13.choo' Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Speaking of
:03:13. > :03:18.chorizo, the decision of the European Union to limit bankers
:03:18. > :03:23.bonuses to just 100% of their salary, now I'd be very critical of
:03:23. > :03:28.bankers' bonuses before, but this policy is madness. It makes good
:03:28. > :03:33.sense for banks to restrict what they pay on an annual basis and
:03:33. > :03:38.supplement it in bonuses so in bad years they only pay the base pay.
:03:38. > :03:43.The result is that base pay will rise. I think this is a policy
:03:43. > :03:47.directed by the EU at the City of London. I think it is an aggressive
:03:47. > :03:51.policy intended to hobble and to damage the City of London and I
:03:51. > :03:56.think it's really quite difficult to argue that EU member sp is in
:03:56. > :04:01.British interests. So many points I'd like to pick up on there. But
:04:01. > :04:04.it's only a moment of the week so I have to pass to Alan. There's a lot
:04:04. > :04:09.of talk after Christmas about the fiscal cliff that America was
:04:09. > :04:12.heading towards. They went over it. This week Obama signed off this
:04:12. > :04:17.package that was supposed to be so dreadful that neither the right or
:04:17. > :04:23.left would allow it to happen. Well it's happened. Obama says he
:04:23. > :04:27.predicts it will cost 750,000 jobs, big, big element of that falls onto
:04:27. > :04:31.the Pentagon, they have to make 9% savings by September. We'll see
:04:31. > :04:35.what it does for the world economy. Big because it could bring us all
:04:35. > :04:40.down. Yeah. Following last week's dismal third place in Eastleigh,
:04:40. > :04:44.the Prime Minister responded decisively by steadfastly refusing
:04:44. > :04:53.to pander to Nigel Farage's anti- immigration insurgency and make a
:04:53. > :04:57.disastrous lurch to the right. It was almost an entire day before
:04:57. > :05:03.journalists were briefed about leaving the European Court of human
:05:03. > :05:11.rielgts, abolishing the Human Rights Act oh, yes and tightening
:05:11. > :05:15.up health and benefit entitlesments for Romanians and Bulgarians who
:05:15. > :05:17.have the temairt to come and live in the UK? We turned to one of the
:05:17. > :05:27.hardest-working Romanians in Britain - Cheeky Girl, Monica
:05:27. > :05:36.
:05:36. > :05:40.As the Cheeky Girls my twin sister and I are grateful for the
:05:40. > :05:50.opportunities we've had since moving to the UK from Romania back
:05:50. > :05:50.
:05:50. > :05:54.in 2002. It's been an incredible journey of highs and lows. We've
:05:54. > :06:01.been through heaven and hell here. When our record company went bust,
:06:01. > :06:06.we could have given up and left. But instead we started from scratch
:06:06. > :06:11.and got back to work. Reading British newspapers you could be
:06:11. > :06:18.mistaken for thinking that Romania is a country full of lazy, work-shy
:06:18. > :06:22.people who are just looking for an easy life at someone else's expense.
:06:22. > :06:25.But millions of Romanians and Bulgarians will come and swamp
:06:25. > :06:32.public services once the restrictions to leave and work in
:06:32. > :06:35.the UK are going to be lifted at the end of this year.
:06:35. > :06:45.One thing is missing from the debate - the voice of Romanians,
:06:45. > :06:46.
:06:46. > :06:49.I think that immigration is a good thing. Within the European Union I
:06:49. > :06:54.believe citizens should be able to work and settle wherever they like,
:06:54. > :07:00.as long as they are working and making a contribution. There is a
:07:00. > :07:07.Big Debate in the UK about who should get a slice of the pie when
:07:07. > :07:11.it comes to health care, schools, housing and benefits. If there is a
:07:11. > :07:18.problem, fix the system, don't blame immigrants who are claiming
:07:18. > :07:23.when they are legally allowed to claim. Thank you. I'll get this for
:07:23. > :07:26.mum. She likes them. Personally, I believe that benefits make life too
:07:26. > :07:36.easy for some an the Government is not doing enough to encourage
:07:36. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:40.people to work. So, Prime Minister, freeze the benefits if that's what
:07:40. > :07:45.you want to do, but don't close the door on freedom of movement for the
:07:45. > :07:48.EU citizens. It's about time we had some
:07:48. > :07:53.positive headlines about our country and the contribution
:07:53. > :08:03.Romanians make to British life. The Government should address the
:08:03. > :08:09.
:08:09. > :08:15.entitlement culture, not try to From the Bucharest delicatessen to
:08:15. > :08:19.our own little Delly here in the heart of Westminster. We're joined
:08:19. > :08:23.by two Cheeky Girls. Two for the price of one. Monica and Gabriella,
:08:23. > :08:28.welcome to you both. Thank you. Very nice to be here again. Good to
:08:29. > :08:35.have you back here. Do you think Britain will be in an attractive
:08:35. > :08:40.place to come for lots of Romanians and Bulgarians? What I've seen is
:08:41. > :08:44.everybody in Britain they are playing a guessing game of how many
:08:44. > :08:50.Romanians and Bulgarians will come over to the UK, at the beginning of
:08:50. > :08:55.next year. We don't know. No. you? Have a guess? Well, I think
:08:55. > :09:03.that nobody knows. I think that people, I think Romanian people who
:09:03. > :09:10.wanted to come over to the UK they already did come, most of them
:09:10. > :09:12.since 2007, since Romania joined the EU. But it will be easier to
:09:12. > :09:17.come now. Do you think more will come? It depends, maybe some
:09:17. > :09:21.youngsters who want a better career abroad and maybe want to have more
:09:21. > :09:28.opportunities. But the people who have a life and family over there,
:09:28. > :09:33.I find it quite hard for people for families to go apart just for a
:09:33. > :09:37.better job. Lots of Polish people came. Yes, yes. Well lots of Polish
:09:37. > :09:42.people came. And Bulgarians and Romanians, who are doing all the
:09:42. > :09:48.jobs which honestly British people don't fancy to do. And often doing
:09:48. > :09:51.them very well? Yes, they are very hard workers. You say in the film
:09:51. > :09:55.that benefits are too easy to claim in this country, welfare benefits
:09:55. > :09:58.are too easy. I would take it that the benefits you can get here on
:09:59. > :10:05.the Health Service, schools, welfare payments, housing, they're
:10:05. > :10:09.much more than you could get in Romania or Bulgaria? Yes, it's true.
:10:09. > :10:14.That is very true. I think the mistake or I don't know how it's
:10:14. > :10:19.better to put, it's here it's because the benefits are really
:10:19. > :10:22.high. You get more like a normal income being on benefits. So that
:10:22. > :10:27.discourages people to work because you think, oh, why would I just get
:10:27. > :10:33.a job, when I could just stay on benefits and I get more money or
:10:33. > :10:37.the same as if I would have a job. So I think that's... It's the
:10:37. > :10:43.British Welfare State's fault. And it's actually his fault because you
:10:43. > :10:45.should have reformed, what they're saying is, since it was under your
:10:46. > :10:49.Government that several million immigrants came into the country,
:10:49. > :10:54.in doing that you should have reformed the Welfare State to
:10:54. > :10:59.tighten up on the benefits. First of all, you don't get the same for
:10:59. > :11:07.being on benefits as you would in work. Jobseeker's allowance is �71
:11:07. > :11:16.a week. The average allowance is �471 a week. You get other benefits
:11:16. > :11:19.as well You don't have to pay rent. When the first tranche came in 2004,
:11:19. > :11:24.they couldn't go anywhere else except Ireland and Sweden. There
:11:24. > :11:27.were only three countries, all of them having high levels of
:11:27. > :11:35.employment that allowed. There were no other countries to go to. With
:11:35. > :11:40.Romania, they're more likely to go to Italy in particular or Spain an
:11:40. > :11:46.they have the choice of all 26 other European Union countries.
:11:46. > :11:51.That's one difference. Secondly, in terms of workers work ago broad,
:11:51. > :11:56.only two countries Poland and Italy have more workers working abroad
:11:56. > :12:00.than this country. It works both ways. British workers go and work
:12:00. > :12:05.elsewhere. Michael, should we be concerned of a huge influx of
:12:05. > :12:08.Romanians and Bulgarians? overly. I think actually that the
:12:08. > :12:13.principal points in the film were absolutely right that is to say
:12:13. > :12:17.immigration is necessary for us. Most immigrants work hard. I think
:12:17. > :12:22.there is a problem that people can come here and pick up benefits too
:12:22. > :12:24.quickly. For example we make almost no test whatsoever, no test
:12:24. > :12:28.whatsoever about people qualifying for national Health Service
:12:28. > :12:30.treatment. If you turn up at casualty, even if you have a pre-
:12:30. > :12:35.existing condition which you brought from a foreign country, you
:12:35. > :12:39.will be treated. So I think actually, you are right in your
:12:39. > :12:42.fundamental point which is that the main problem is with our conditions.
:12:42. > :12:47.Indeed, this seems to be the way that the Government is going. The
:12:47. > :12:50.Government is recognising that it cannot impose discriminatory
:12:50. > :12:53.conditions against immigrants, but perhaps some of the terms of
:12:53. > :12:57.qualification for various benefits in this country are too lenient.
:12:57. > :13:00.There should be thresholds. We used to have at the time of the
:13:00. > :13:05.invention of the Welfare State a contributory principle, which has
:13:05. > :13:09.been more or less eradicated. line is that immigrants are good
:13:09. > :13:13.and we should welcome them. But we should be tougher on welfare, that
:13:13. > :13:17.people, we shouldn't have a situation where... No-one ever
:13:17. > :13:22.immigrates to America to get welfare. They go to work. Yes, it's
:13:22. > :13:28.true. I think that in which ever country you wish to live, sometimes
:13:28. > :13:32.you live in that country and you claim, so you can't just take and
:13:32. > :13:37.give nothing back. That's the whole idea. If you live in a country and
:13:37. > :13:42.you claim health care and schools and Housing Benefit or so-and-so on,
:13:42. > :13:47.you have to work or maybe work in later life to have the benefits.
:13:47. > :13:51.That's the case, leave aside the NHS, it's more complex than Michael
:13:51. > :13:55.suggested, but you could not get any benefits here unless you joined
:13:55. > :13:59.the workers registration scheme, which meant you had to be working
:13:59. > :14:02.for 12 continuous months before you could draw benefits. Those
:14:02. > :14:12.accession eight countries, the vast majority of people who came over
:14:12. > :14:18.
:14:18. > :14:21.Anyone coming from Romania and Bulgaria would have to work for at
:14:22. > :14:26.least 12 months before they can draw any benefit. There are so many
:14:26. > :14:29.myths around this and you exploded some of them in your film.
:14:30. > :14:33.Nevertheless, the worry is, we got it wrong about the numbers coming
:14:33. > :14:37.from Poland and that is why no one is keen to put a figure on the
:14:37. > :14:42.numbers coming from Bulgaria and Romania. You've got that
:14:42. > :14:46.horrendously wrong. But that aside, this government will not even have
:14:46. > :14:51.a stab at it in case it is out. According to Yvette Cooper, you
:14:51. > :14:55.seem to have been wrong about quite a few things. She said we were
:14:56. > :15:04.wrong on two things, getting the points based system in, which I
:15:04. > :15:14.also said. When the Tories proposed that in 2005, your party opposed it.
:15:14. > :15:17.
:15:17. > :15:24.It was in about 2005 that we were planning it. You mean 9095. 2005.
:15:24. > :15:29.The legislation went through in 2005. The other thing she said was
:15:29. > :15:34.that every other country said, we will allow workers in in seven
:15:34. > :15:38.years, and we, Sweden and the Republic of Ireland said we would
:15:38. > :15:41.take them straight away. It sounded like a good idea at this time.
:15:41. > :15:48.Spain, when they joined the EU, they lifted their restriction
:15:48. > :15:53.straightaway. So did we. But we made the Bulgarians and Romanians
:15:53. > :16:00.go through a long transition period. The same as every other European
:16:00. > :16:08.Union country. Yvette was saying we should have done that in 2004.
:16:08. > :16:12.There were 6400 vacancies and a 75% employment rate at that time.
:16:12. > :16:21.are saying the immigrants have come in to do jobs that unemployed Brits
:16:21. > :16:28.will not do. Yes. Some of them. There is another problem here.
:16:28. > :16:32.British people might say that foreign workers might take their
:16:32. > :16:39.jobs, but the problem should be discussed with the contractors who
:16:39. > :16:44.are hiring people to do the jobs. They look for cheaper labour.
:16:44. > :16:52.did you really employment agencies. There are some who would only take
:16:52. > :16:56.on the eastern European workers. must hear from Mr Portillo. He has
:16:56. > :17:01.been shy tonight. Firstly, I was going to say we do need young
:17:01. > :17:04.immigrants, because our birthrate is so low that we don't have a
:17:04. > :17:11.proper replacement ratio. We need more young people if we are going
:17:11. > :17:15.to support our ageing population. Secondly, one of the things Labour
:17:15. > :17:19.achieved which they are very modest about is but they introduced so
:17:19. > :17:23.many immigrants into the country that they brought down wage levels,
:17:23. > :17:27.which enabled our economy to go on growing for longer. For the first
:17:27. > :17:35.time in modern history, our recovery was not choked off by wage
:17:35. > :17:42.inflation. But Labour don't talk about that. There has not been a
:17:42. > :17:47.single prosecution for not paying the minimum wage for many years.
:17:47. > :17:51.How many were there under Labour? fair few. I would like to look at
:17:51. > :17:55.the figures. We are glad to have two emigrants with us tonight.
:17:55. > :17:57.Thank you. I know what you are thinking - how
:17:57. > :18:03.did we manage to get through an interview with the Cheeky Girls
:18:03. > :18:08.without mentioning Lib Dem politicians and touched my Bob? Why
:18:08. > :18:12.would I mention that? -- touched my bum? That is why we are paid the
:18:12. > :18:16.big bucks - to set the journalistic standards others can only aspire to.
:18:16. > :18:19.Speaking of which, we are about to exceed ours because fiddling in the
:18:19. > :18:23.wings, the one and only Nigel Kennedy is here to talk about
:18:23. > :18:27.something we know nothing about - what it is like to be adored by
:18:27. > :18:31.fans the world over. If you would like to single out everything that
:18:31. > :18:41.is wrong with tonight's show and blow it all out of proportion, as
:18:41. > :18:45.you are inclined to do, you know the drill.
:18:45. > :18:49.Now, Justin Bieber has more followers than politicians have in
:18:49. > :18:53.their wildest dreams. But we have seen this week that even pop
:18:53. > :18:57.megastars risk losing some of their course if they don't live up to
:18:57. > :19:01.expectations, something we know all too well here on This Week. So with
:19:01. > :19:06.further damage to our reputation almost impossible, we have asked
:19:06. > :19:11.our very own Belieber, Radio 5 Live's Victoria Derbyshire, to go
:19:11. > :19:21.in search of the Canadian pop munchkin for her round-up of the
:19:21. > :19:23.
:19:23. > :19:28.political week. # You know you love me.
:19:28. > :19:31.# I know you care. # Just shout whenever, and I'll be
:19:31. > :19:37.there. # You want my love, you what my
:19:37. > :19:42.heart, and we will never be a part. No, we will never be a part. It may
:19:42. > :19:46.surprise you to know that I am in fact a true Belieber and I got very
:19:46. > :19:50.cross this week with all the stick he has been getting. What is a few
:19:50. > :19:55.hours' wait when you are about to see one of the greatest pop stars
:19:55. > :20:00.on earth? I have got my tickets for tonight's gig in their right now.
:20:00. > :20:07.Justin Bieber fans were not the and the disappointed once this week.
:20:07. > :20:12.am totally disgusted. We are all fans and now we hate him.
:20:12. > :20:17.Tories were deserted by their fan base in Eastleigh. That has put the
:20:17. > :20:20.Tory leadership issue back on the agenda again. Cameron has insisted
:20:20. > :20:24.he will not lurch to the right, but others in the Cabinet are trying to
:20:24. > :20:26.court popularity. Defence Secretary Philip Hammond was quick to state
:20:26. > :20:31.that he thought they should be further cuts to the welfare budget
:20:31. > :20:34.to avoid him having to make more savings in defence spending. There
:20:34. > :20:39.may be some modest further reductions we can make through
:20:39. > :20:46.efficiencies. But we will not be able to make significant further
:20:46. > :20:56.cuts without eroding military capability. I need to see Bieber!
:20:56. > :21:00.Maybe from up there. The Prime Minister will be watching
:21:00. > :21:04.his back, and some wonder if Cameron should stop worrying about
:21:04. > :21:07.the popular blonde in City Hall and keep a close eye on his Cabinet
:21:07. > :21:11.colleagues, particularly Theresa May, whose comments this week about
:21:11. > :21:15.Britain distancing itself from the European Court of Human Rights were
:21:15. > :21:20.seen by some as jockeying for position, should the Conservative
:21:20. > :21:25.leadership become available. Ed Miliband certainly made a point of
:21:25. > :21:28.mentioning those suspected ambitions at PMQs. The Home
:21:28. > :21:34.Secretary shakes her fed. I look forward to facing her when they are
:21:34. > :21:38.in opposition. Cameron is not finding many fans of his economic
:21:38. > :21:44.strategy. He has faced calls from restless backbenchers for cuts in
:21:44. > :21:48.taxes and spending, but he is not going to be swayed. He has insisted
:21:48. > :21:52.he is not changing course, he is sticking to the road ahead. There
:21:52. > :21:57.is no alternative. The decision we made now will set the course of our
:21:57. > :22:02.economic future for years to come. While some would falter and plunge
:22:02. > :22:09.us back into the abyss, we will stick to the course. So that is a
:22:09. > :22:12.note to plan B. Vince, the Business Secretary, has an helpfully called
:22:12. > :22:17.for more impish up to spending, to be funded through increased
:22:17. > :22:27.borrowing. This is not music to the ears of the Prime Minister or the
:22:27. > :22:28.
:22:29. > :22:31.deputy prime minister. Docking of speeding cars, and Vicky
:22:31. > :22:36.Pryce, ex-wife of Chris Huhne, has been found guilty of perverting the
:22:36. > :22:40.course of justice and now faces and her own jail sentence. Justin
:22:40. > :22:45.Bieber should note that the fall from grace can be rapid. At one
:22:45. > :22:52.point, I nearly left before he even came on the stage. A HBOS Sir David
:22:52. > :22:56.Nicholson went before MPs to be questioned over his -- NHS boss at
:22:56. > :23:00.Sir David Nicholson went before MPs to be questioned over his handling
:23:00. > :23:06.of Mid-Staffordshire hospital trust. Asked whether he should stay in his
:23:06. > :23:13.job, he was not exactly decisive. Well, obviously I set out before
:23:13. > :23:18.how important it seems to me to... I have a duty to manage the
:23:18. > :23:22.organisation over these changes. That is possibly why Downing Street
:23:22. > :23:29.continues to support him - he is too important and responsible for
:23:29. > :23:33.too many of the complicated ongoing reforms.
:23:33. > :23:38.The government has already had to make a U-turn this week on the
:23:38. > :23:41.amount of public sector -- private sector health provision over
:23:41. > :23:45.warnings that that would open up the NHS to too much competition.
:23:45. > :23:51.Ministers cannot afford to lose their crucial man on the inside at
:23:51. > :23:55.this time. We are one big family and we support each other.
:23:55. > :23:59.gorgeous boy Bieber has had a bad few days, but arguably, Chancellor
:23:59. > :24:04.George Osborne has had worse. He was a lone figure in Brussels,
:24:04. > :24:09.waving the flag for Bangors' rights, tried to block a European Cup on
:24:09. > :24:14.bankers' bonuses. We do have concerns that in some aspects, the
:24:14. > :24:20.proposals put forward in this directive on bankers' pay will
:24:20. > :24:25.undermine that. Another was, it will push salaries up and make it
:24:25. > :24:30.more difficult to claw back bankers' bonuses when things go
:24:30. > :24:34.wrong. It was slightly embarrassing for him, because he was outvoted by
:24:34. > :24:39.his European colleagues 26-1. It is a politically precarious tightrope
:24:39. > :24:45.to walk, listening to the public blowing hate figures in British
:24:45. > :24:48.finance. It crossed Ed Miliband's mind, too. While the Prime Minister
:24:48. > :24:58.and Chancellor of the only people who think it is a priority to fight
:24:58. > :24:58.
:24:58. > :25:05.for bigger bonuses for bankers? for the Conservatives, keeping the
:25:05. > :25:14.City onside is part of their raison d'etre. I think he could be below
:25:14. > :25:22.me now. I can hear them starting! Got to go.
:25:22. > :25:27.# Baby, Baby, Baby... #. 5 Live's Victoria Derbyshire on the
:25:27. > :25:35.roof of the O2 building. Michael, tell Alan why David Nicholson
:25:35. > :25:42.should resign as the boss of the NHS? For two reasons. One is that
:25:42. > :25:45.he was in charge of the regional health authority that covered Mid-
:25:45. > :25:51.Staffordshire during the appalling number of excessive deaths that
:25:51. > :25:54.occurred in that hospital. Secondly, because it appears now that he is
:25:54. > :25:59.in charge of the National Health Service, he appears to know nothing
:25:59. > :26:02.about what is going on inside the organisation. For instance, the
:26:02. > :26:06.fact that people are being dismissed with half a million-pound
:26:06. > :26:10.payouts and being required to sign confidentiality agreements that
:26:10. > :26:15.prevent them from saying what has been done against the interests of
:26:15. > :26:24.patients. Those two things together are enough to demand his
:26:24. > :26:29.resignation. Firstly, Michael, don't you think a public inquiry
:26:30. > :26:37.where he appeared for 11 hours before it QC, the second inquiry,
:26:37. > :26:43.by the way, not only do they not place the blame at Mickelson's will
:26:43. > :26:50.-- not only has the inquiry not said that Nicholson should be the
:26:50. > :26:55.scapegoat, but it says no one should be scapegoated. You make the
:26:55. > :27:01.point for me. It was a disgraceful public report to conclude that no
:27:01. > :27:09.one was responsible. Clearly, people were responsible. No, he
:27:09. > :27:16.said Nicholson was not responsible. The report said no one was
:27:16. > :27:19.responsible. Apparently, the system was to blame. To say the fellow who
:27:19. > :27:23.was running the region at the time and has been running the National
:27:23. > :27:32.Health Service since would be a scapegoat is preposterous. He is
:27:32. > :27:35.not a scapegoat, he is the man who is in charge. Who was sacked over
:27:35. > :27:41.the Bristol Heart Hospital when all those babies died and the your
:27:41. > :27:49.regime? Harold Shipman killed 275 of his patients. He was part of the
:27:49. > :27:52.NHS. The NHS is not a company, it is a health system. The
:27:52. > :27:56.responsibilities are of the clinicians to the patient and for
:27:56. > :28:01.the local hospital to the trust. So to say because he was the chief
:28:01. > :28:05.executive of the NHS, irrespective of anything else... You go on
:28:05. > :28:10.making my point. The National Health Service has a history of no
:28:10. > :28:13.one of being to blame for anything. You call it a system, I call it a
:28:13. > :28:18.nationalised industry which has been taken over by the people who
:28:18. > :28:23.run it so that it is run only in jeep interests of the producers.
:28:23. > :28:26.The that is ridiculous. You have just sighted at three cases in a
:28:26. > :28:31.row. I'm just pointing out that under your government, there were
:28:31. > :28:37.problems. You are making a party political point, I am talking about
:28:37. > :28:42.responsibility. There are no standardised mortality ratios, this
:28:42. > :28:48.measure by which they know there is a problem, before 2000. There was
:28:48. > :28:52.no independent regulator. So after 2000, there was? There was no
:28:52. > :28:55.complaints system outside the local hospital. All of that was put in
:28:55. > :29:01.place by people like David Nicholson. The few were running the
:29:01. > :29:07.health service, wouldn't you want to know every morning about every
:29:07. > :29:14.hospital that had an excess mortality rate? Oh, sorry, you were
:29:14. > :29:19.running the National Health Service. Such subtlety!
:29:19. > :29:25.You had your moment of the week on bankers' bonuses, Michael, saying
:29:25. > :29:29.what you thought of the European Parliament. I suggest that the
:29:29. > :29:33.politics are difficult for Mr Osborne. It is not a great
:29:33. > :29:40.political move if you are Chancellor to be seen to go in to
:29:40. > :29:44.bat for people who may be paid �1 million on a salary being told but
:29:44. > :29:49.on top of that, you can only have another million as a bonus or if
:29:49. > :29:54.the shareholders agree, up to 2 million extra. That is a difficult
:29:54. > :29:58.political wicket to be on. It is very difficult. But the point of
:29:58. > :30:04.being in office is not just to do everything that is popular, it is
:30:04. > :30:09.also to do what is right. The bankers have behaved disgracefully.
:30:09. > :30:14.The banks have been full of greedy individuals who have wrecked the
:30:14. > :30:19.system and brought us to the point of perdition. But rationally, it is
:30:19. > :30:23.necessary to have a system whereby in good years, people are rewarded
:30:23. > :30:27.for performance, but let it be properly measured so that, not
:30:27. > :30:31.least in bad years, the banks can get away with paying relatively
:30:31. > :30:41.small amounts of money so that they are not constantly forced to pay
:30:41. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:49.out money in good and bad years. $:/STARTFEED. We've reached that
:30:49. > :30:52.point in a Conservative Government and we still have a mad system in
:30:52. > :30:55.the Conservative Party where you can mount challenges against the
:30:55. > :30:59.leader where there is the suspicion that David Cameron may be
:30:59. > :31:02.challenged and may be replaced either before an election or after
:31:02. > :31:06.an election. I said before I don't think the Conservatives had much
:31:06. > :31:11.chance of winning an election. Once that happens, everybody was in the
:31:11. > :31:17.top three or four is a potential candidate. Even in the rather mad
:31:17. > :31:22.case I think of Adam Afreia even people not in the top 100, thought
:31:22. > :31:28.to be contenders. You're saying in a sense they're playing for
:31:28. > :31:32.position post 2015 assuming Mr Cameron isn't going to win 2015?
:31:32. > :31:36.am saying that, but there is the possibility of a leadership
:31:36. > :31:41.challenge that could unseat David Cameron. Do you think? There's a
:31:41. > :31:48.possibility. Unlikely though. Unlikely there would be a challenge
:31:48. > :31:52.and most unlikely it would succeed. If you want me to assess Mrs May's
:31:52. > :31:56.chances, I don't think she has a lot of friends in the House of
:31:56. > :32:00.Commons. Under the Conservative Party system, though she might be
:32:00. > :32:04.pop lore amongst the membership of the party she would struggle to be
:32:04. > :32:09.one of the two candidates selected by MPs to be put to the
:32:09. > :32:14.Conservative membership outside the House of Commons. Looking at a
:32:14. > :32:20.post-2015 situation, we had this essay in the New Statesman by Vince
:32:20. > :32:26.Cable this week, now it's expressed gently, it's not firm on what
:32:26. > :32:32.should be done, but as you read the tone of it, it's a nicely written
:32:32. > :32:37.essay actually, an authorityive. It's leaning more to Labour's
:32:37. > :32:41.approach of we're prepared to run a bigger deficit if we spend the
:32:42. > :32:48.money on infrastructure and public investment and so on. Clegg said
:32:48. > :32:51.something recently to say they were wrong to cut so much in spending.
:32:52. > :32:55.It's significant, because I think Vince Cable carries a lot of
:32:55. > :33:00.credibility and I think it's significant because it eroads the
:33:00. > :33:03.argument that Cameron always uses, which is a good sound bite. You
:33:03. > :33:06.know the answer to too much borrowing can't be to borrow more.
:33:06. > :33:11.Vince Cable is saying there's a sound economic argument to say
:33:11. > :33:16.that's the case. In terms of Cameron's position, he's the best
:33:16. > :33:19.they've got to pull the Tory party into the 21st century and make them
:33:19. > :33:23.electable. None of the candidates that I can see, who are now being
:33:23. > :33:27.mooted, particularly not Theresa May, are going to be able to hold a
:33:27. > :33:31.torch to him in that respect, in terms of his broad appeal to the
:33:31. > :33:35.public. He's more popular than the party. Much more. Can I make a
:33:35. > :33:42.point about the borrowing? Yes. Britain's annual deficit at the
:33:42. > :33:49.moment I think is 8.8% of the size of our economy. What is Greece's?
:33:49. > :33:53.6.6. Italy runs a primary surplus. What is Spain? 8%. France just over
:33:54. > :33:57.3%. Germany non-existent. Is there any country in the European Union
:33:57. > :34:01.running a bigger deficit than ours? I don't think there s. I think
:34:01. > :34:07.we're top at the moment. Even after five years of Mr Boz orn, we will
:34:07. > :34:13.still have the -- Mr Osborne, we will still have the biggest deficit
:34:13. > :34:22.in the G7. You have to be very confident to say let's borrow more.
:34:22. > :34:26.Carry on with this successful policy. Now, Manchester United
:34:26. > :34:29.customers, on Tuesday night after their company was kicked out of
:34:29. > :34:33.Champions League, they had plenty of time to console themselves on
:34:33. > :34:40.the trip home, most of them well they live in London. Others were
:34:40. > :34:44.beyond any silver linings this week, whether the fans of anti-
:34:44. > :34:48.impeerlalist Hugo Chavez or Justin Bieber. Why do some people become
:34:48. > :34:52.so fanatical about sport, music, even politicians? Nobody's ever
:34:52. > :35:02.felt that way about us, so we've decided to put fans in this week's
:35:02. > :35:04.
:35:04. > :35:09.Hugo Chavez' fans paid their respects this week to the poster
:35:09. > :35:13.boy of the Latin American death, following the death of the
:35:13. > :35:20.charismatic Venezuelan President, proving politicians still have the
:35:20. > :35:24.power to move a crowd. TRANSLATION: Chavez hasn't died.
:35:25. > :35:29.know you are in the heavens and will be our guide. After last
:35:29. > :35:33.week's dramatic Eastleigh by- election, it seems a growing number
:35:34. > :35:37.of UKIP fans are the ones making a big political noise in Westminster.
:35:37. > :35:40.We really have connected with voters in this constituency and
:35:40. > :35:49.that's because we're talking about issues that the other parties would
:35:49. > :35:54.prefer to brush under the carpet. At the O2 areenate massed ranks of
:35:54. > :36:00.the Bieber army were left shell shocked after the teeny boper kept
:36:00. > :36:05.them waiting for two hours. Though some die hardz always manage to
:36:05. > :36:09.find the sunny side. I like the fact that we had to wait so it
:36:09. > :36:11.lasted longer, so the day just went on. It built up and made it more
:36:11. > :36:17.exciting. Everyone was having a good time. It didn't make a
:36:17. > :36:24.difference nay way. When it comes to being a true fan tatic,
:36:24. > :36:28.Beliebers have nothing on footy fans with one red faced Man United
:36:28. > :36:36.supporter even calling 999 after Nani's red card. Take it from me,
:36:36. > :36:38.give the fans what they want and they'll stay true forever.
:36:38. > :36:44.We're joined by Nigel Kennedy. Welcome back to the programme.
:36:44. > :36:48.Hello. Good to see you. Really good to see you. If you have a lot of
:36:48. > :36:51.fans, do you have to manage them? Is it hard to manage them?
:36:51. > :36:56.really because they've come to see you play, so they're friends, you
:36:56. > :37:00.know, they're friends from the start. They're on your side. Yes.
:37:00. > :37:04.But can you do something unwittingly that upsets them?
:37:04. > :37:10.sure I do, but I have enough sycophantic people around that no-
:37:10. > :37:15.one tells me. I like. That I could do with that. I've just got these
:37:15. > :37:20.two. They're very nice to you. They're quite nice. They are.
:37:20. > :37:25.have to feed them meat. They are amiable characters. Would you ever
:37:25. > :37:31.turn up two hours late for a gig? Only in Switzerland, just to make
:37:31. > :37:37.an effect. Is that because you're counting money? I'm counting their
:37:37. > :37:41.clock. Your Swiss train was late. Exactly. Have we overdone the
:37:41. > :37:45.Bieber business? Two hours is quite a long time when the audience is
:37:46. > :37:51.quite young. In the 60s you kind of expected rock stars to urn up late.
:37:51. > :37:54.It's part of it but they didn't have the insulting dem graphics in
:37:54. > :37:58.those days. It's a horrible process for the audience and the music to
:37:58. > :38:02.think you have to have music for 12-year-olds, music for 14-year-
:38:02. > :38:06.olds. Kids being dragged along by their parents, the idea of the
:38:06. > :38:09.Beatles or particularly the Rolling Stones was not to have their
:38:09. > :38:15.parents drag them along. It's something to do without the parents
:38:15. > :38:19.for a change. What is Bieber? Is it a -- something from Deutschland,
:38:19. > :38:24.what is that? I don't know why you're asking me? I don't know I
:38:24. > :38:30.thought you might be rocking off to it. I'm just reading the brief here.
:38:30. > :38:34.You're a big fan yourself, though, you're a fan. Not of Justin Bieber
:38:35. > :38:39.clearly, but of stpifl -- Aston Villa. Do you think your passion
:38:39. > :38:43.for that is too all consuming? getting a bit worn thin at this
:38:43. > :38:47.point in time. Are you not doing well? We're in the relegation zone.
:38:47. > :38:51.I've got nothing against people from other parts of the world but
:38:51. > :38:55.having owners from another country thousands of miles away doesn't
:38:55. > :39:01.leave a great sense of loyalty to the fan base. Who owns Aston Villa?
:39:01. > :39:07.We have an American owner. You're still wearing the shirt? Yes but
:39:07. > :39:12.I'm hiding it. You're covering it up. It's not modesty which covers
:39:12. > :39:15.it, it's humiliation. Being a fan gives you a collective identity,
:39:15. > :39:20.doesn't it? It does and it's fantastic to be involved in
:39:20. > :39:27.something more than just yourself. As a performer it's great to forget
:39:27. > :39:31.about me, me, me and be part of 40,000 people who've all got a
:39:31. > :39:36.common desire. Are football fans with their obsession and enthusiasm
:39:36. > :39:40.are they any different from pop fans? In a way, because they're not
:39:40. > :39:44.infach waited. You know there's far more people shouting insults at the
:39:44. > :39:49.players in a football match luckily, than at for instance my gigs.
:39:49. > :39:54.team could win and lose. But if you're a rock star you win all the
:39:54. > :39:57.time. If you played as bad as some of the music stars do, I mean the
:39:57. > :40:04.football stars do, if I played as badly as them I wouldn't have a job
:40:04. > :40:08.the next week. Michael, how do you handle your fans? Gently. After a
:40:09. > :40:12.showing to a public audience of a railway journey, one can be knocked
:40:12. > :40:17.down bit walking frames in the stampede afterwards. It is tricky.
:40:18. > :40:24.What about you? Michael and I, the cheeky boys, we always treat our
:40:24. > :40:34.fan with great respect. Yes. We've never been two hours late. He or
:40:34. > :40:35.
:40:35. > :40:39.she is a great person. Very few politicians have a kind of fan base
:40:39. > :40:44.outside the close coterie of the party faithful, the kind of people
:40:44. > :40:49.who go to party conference. You see where Hugo Chavez, where he clearly,
:40:49. > :40:52.he was a mar mielt -- Marmite character. Lots of people hated him
:40:52. > :40:59.but big support too. You see with politicians, having that kind of
:40:59. > :41:03.support, on the right and the left, kind of unthinking, -- unthinking
:41:03. > :41:07.support, you get a bit worried. It's nice to see someone getting
:41:07. > :41:12.rid of privatisation, that's fantastic that the people own
:41:12. > :41:21.everything. He also got rid of his critics by putting them in jail.
:41:21. > :41:24.Maybe it's a good place to be, it's free lodging isn't it. It could be
:41:24. > :41:32.nice if the Scottish could have their own oil, that's what the
:41:32. > :41:35.referendum is all about. There's a referendum in Scotland.
:41:35. > :41:41.wondering about the Union Jack on the Last Night of the Proms, will
:41:41. > :41:46.they take the blue bit out? were the Justin Bieber of the Tory
:41:46. > :41:54.party at one stage. Which of us is that? You. I don't think he's been
:41:54. > :41:59.in the Tory party. You had an army of devoted fans. I don't remember
:41:59. > :42:04.being that young or that late. There was an army. You remember
:42:04. > :42:09.that. Politicians do sometimes, ones with charisma, like yourself,
:42:09. > :42:13.engender the trust and belief of people. Nicely put. We'd better
:42:13. > :42:20.quit while we're ahead. Don't let us down boys. What do you regard
:42:20. > :42:30.yourself as a fan of? Music. Rock? Queens Park Rangers by the way.
:42:30. > :42:39.Good on you. It's a proper team. Opera I suppose. You are. You are
:42:39. > :42:49.an opera fan tatic. I'm fon a fanatic. I'm a fan. If you sit for
:42:49. > :42:52.
:42:52. > :42:59.eight hours at the ring side you are a fan attic. So he just dines
:43:00. > :43:06.out on his love of Wagner. Any way, I'm a fan of Nigel Kennedy. That's
:43:06. > :43:15.why I chose the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto for desert island disc.
:43:15. > :43:25.What are you doing these days? which is fund apltdal and --
:43:25. > :43:28.
:43:28. > :43:32.fundamental and another one from the 1930s, a good swing. That's all
:43:32. > :43:37.for tonight. Though not for us. It's gender awareness night at an
:43:37. > :43:40.bells. Isn't it always. We leave you tonight with the latest twist
:43:40. > :43:48.in the tragic soap opera known as the Liberal Democrat party, proving
:43:48. > :43:57.that they really are a party of beards and scandals.