:00:17. > :00:20.Tonight, join This Week for a political marathon. As the final
:00:20. > :00:24.stragglers cross the Westminster finishing line, we bring up the
:00:24. > :00:28.rear. Defeating terrorism may be a marathon rather than a sprint, but
:00:28. > :00:37.are we ignoring the long-distance dangers? Author and former Islamist
:00:37. > :00:41.Maajid Nawaz thinks we're not keeping up with the radicals.
:00:41. > :00:45.question is, what is it about certain young Muslim men, born and
:00:45. > :00:49.raised in their own societies, that makes them want to block their
:00:49. > :00:52.fellow citizens? I will try to tell you why.
:00:52. > :00:55.The Chancellor just manages to avoid running into a triple dip
:00:55. > :00:57.recession, but it's not exactly a personal best for the British
:00:57. > :01:06.economy. At least broadcaster Matthew Wright has something left
:01:06. > :01:11.in his tank. A positive result of sorts for the Chancellor, but there
:01:11. > :01:15.is still a long road ahead. And as the London Marathon shows
:01:15. > :01:18.all that is good about Britain, are we too ready to believe our
:01:18. > :01:28.mythical track record? German comedy ambassador, Henning Wehn,
:01:28. > :01:31.
:01:31. > :01:36.puts our performance in perspective. Now, let's debunk stereotypes, but
:01:36. > :01:43.not before I have had a sip of my favourite tipple.
:01:43. > :01:48.On your marks, get set... Hang on, where's the Blue Nun water station?
:01:48. > :01:53.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. And welcome to what future
:01:53. > :01:59.historians will surely call the Boy George boom. All 0.3% of it! Strong
:01:59. > :02:04.stuff, indeed. Provided, of course, it's not revised downwards. His
:02:04. > :02:08.mother must be very proud. Yet, who are we to talk down Britain, I hear
:02:08. > :02:11.you cry, to sneer at a growth rate weaker than a bottle of Blue Nun-
:02:11. > :02:15.Lite, when evidence of a booming nation firing on one cylinder lies
:02:15. > :02:18.all around us, whether it be the boom in food banks, the boom in
:02:19. > :02:24.measles, or the boom in Abu Qatada's legal aid bill, which must
:02:24. > :02:27.have financed many a villa on Tuscan hilltops? Yes, it may not be
:02:27. > :02:31.the stimulus package we'd hoped for, but economic beggars often can't be
:02:31. > :02:34.choosers. And if encouraging figures released this week are to
:02:34. > :02:37.be believed, the Boy George boom has even reached the economic
:02:37. > :02:47.wastelands of the West Midlands, where a frankly terrifying
:02:47. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:51.statistic reveals that 20% of homes are now in possession of a hot tub.
:02:51. > :02:54.As macro-economists the world over are often heard to say, who needs a
:02:54. > :02:57.thriving manufacturing base when you can have a back rub and a
:02:57. > :03:00.bubble bath in your own back garden? Speaking of suburban
:03:00. > :03:04.swingers, happy to throw their conversational car keys into the
:03:04. > :03:07.This Week fruit bowl, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men who
:03:07. > :03:13.police often find hiding on Justin Bieber's tour bus, the stun gun and
:03:13. > :03:17.stunned silence of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:17. > :03:27.of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo
:03:27. > :03:32.
:03:32. > :03:34.choo" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Wander
:03:34. > :03:38.Murdoch's was sent to prison apparently for trying to get her
:03:38. > :03:42.father out of a residential care home where she thought he was being
:03:42. > :03:45.mistreated. In any case, she was imprisoned by something called the
:03:45. > :03:51.Court of Protection, without ever appearing in court and having her
:03:51. > :03:54.chance to argue her case. So it came as a surprise to her to say
:03:54. > :03:59.the least that she was carted off to jail, where she also says she
:03:59. > :04:03.was attacked by other inmates. The point is that I thought it was
:04:03. > :04:08.fundamental that everyone had his or her day in court. Remember, Abu
:04:08. > :04:15.Qatada has had about 20. It is a remarkable story when you think it
:04:15. > :04:20.is happening in Britain, too. Office of National Statistics
:04:20. > :04:27.analysed the censors. You need to get out more often! For the first
:04:27. > :04:32.time in a century home ownership has gone down. There are all sorts
:04:32. > :04:36.of reasons behind that. Higher house prices, falling wages. But it
:04:36. > :04:39.may be something significant. It maybe that the British people are
:04:39. > :04:45.starting to fall out of love with home-ownership and are more
:04:45. > :04:49.inclined to rent. Maybe they just cannot get a mortgage! But if those
:04:49. > :04:54.things are happening it may mean there is a cultural shift as well,
:04:54. > :05:04.forced by circumstances. White Iain Macleod in will be turning in his
:05:04. > :05:07.
:05:07. > :05:11.I am here to teach. White Now, it was a cloudy Monday ten
:05:11. > :05:14.days ago when two young ethnic Chechens planted home-made bombs in
:05:14. > :05:20.the middle of cheering crowds of people. Three died, and over 260
:05:20. > :05:24.were injured at the finish line of the Boston marathon. There followed
:05:24. > :05:29.a manhunt, not out of place in a TV thriller, for the men whose grainy
:05:29. > :05:32.images had been caught on CCTV. At the Old Bailey today, three British
:05:32. > :05:37.men, including an ex-police community support officer and a
:05:37. > :05:42.Muslim convert, were jailed for preparing acts of terrorism. So
:05:42. > :05:45.just how safe are we, and what does the future hold? We turned to
:05:45. > :05:55.former Islamist, Maajid Nawaz, now an author who campaigns against
:05:55. > :06:12.
:06:12. > :06:20.radical Islam. This is his Take of They were shocking images, young
:06:20. > :06:25.men in Boston carrying backpacks into their own society but decided
:06:25. > :06:29.to maim and kill fellow citizens. Those images reminded us of what
:06:29. > :06:33.happened here on 7/7 at Russell Square and other places in London
:06:33. > :06:37.where equally integrated citizens decided to turn their backs on
:06:37. > :06:41.society. The question is what would have motivated these young men. I
:06:41. > :06:45.know because I spent 13 years inside an Islamist organisation and
:06:45. > :06:49.was imprisoned as a political prisoner in Egypt for attempting to
:06:49. > :06:56.overthrow the Egyptian government. I joined this group at 16 in Essex,
:06:56. > :07:00.having been born and raised there. There is no one identifiable cause
:07:00. > :07:04.for why these brothers turned against their own country, but
:07:04. > :07:07.there are a combination of factors. Being first generation Chechnyans,
:07:07. > :07:12.although they were in America, they suffered from an acute identity
:07:12. > :07:18.crisis and had to decide whether they belonged to their country of
:07:18. > :07:22.heritage or their adopted country. They chose to become Chechnyan.
:07:22. > :07:26.Having settled the identity question, the older brother decided
:07:26. > :07:31.to travel to his country of origin. It was there that he probably met
:07:31. > :07:35.charismatic recruiters, some of whom he watched online, and decided
:07:35. > :07:40.to shift once more from becoming Chechnyan to becoming a member of
:07:40. > :07:50.the global Islamist community. From that point, his struggle and fight
:07:50. > :07:52.
:07:52. > :07:55.became international, and his target became international. When
:07:55. > :07:59.America killed Osama Bin Laden they thought they had dealt with Al-
:07:59. > :08:04.Qaeda but what happened was that the nature of the beast changed.
:08:04. > :08:08.Al-Qaeda went from a global terrorist organisation to a global
:08:08. > :08:12.jihadist insurgency. That means Al- Qaeda has become a brand,
:08:12. > :08:18.sufficient to inspire young men in Boston in the US, and here, to
:08:18. > :08:26.associate with the brand and commit acts of terror without the need for
:08:26. > :08:30.direct operational command. I do not want to be alarmist and I
:08:30. > :08:34.say this with caution, but this is not the last time we will see such
:08:34. > :08:38.acts of terror on our streets in the capitals of Western countries.
:08:38. > :08:43.Battles and conflicts around the world will continue to divide the
:08:43. > :08:50.Al-Qaeda brand with the perfect tool an excuse for recruitment. And
:08:50. > :08:54.Syria has become the new battleground. According to counter-
:08:54. > :08:58.terrorism experts, some 500 young Muslim men from across Europe and
:08:58. > :09:02.from the UK have travelled to Syria to join their new battle and
:09:03. > :09:08.partake in what they perceive as a global warming between Islam and
:09:08. > :09:12.the West. Nobody has said it yet, but I will, Syria is looking
:09:12. > :09:18.increasingly like the new Afghanistan. If so, it will not be
:09:18. > :09:27.long until we see the blog back right here on our streets. -- the
:09:27. > :09:33.From the mean streets of Grimsby to our studio. Welcome to the
:09:33. > :09:38.programme. You finished by saying that we are going to see the
:09:38. > :09:42.effects on our streets. Why are you sure? I am not sure, but I am
:09:42. > :09:46.fearful, because our counter- terrorism experts have estimated
:09:46. > :09:51.that 100 Britons have travelled to Syria to join the so-called jihad.
:09:51. > :09:55.On top of that, some of them have died in the cause, meaning they are
:09:55. > :09:58.prepared to risk their lives. And some of them have targeted British
:09:58. > :10:04.journalists. In one case a British journalist was held hostage by
:10:04. > :10:08.people who had south London accents. I know that because I met a
:10:08. > :10:12.journalist when he returned. And I interviewed him, and he confirmed
:10:12. > :10:17.that he was held by people that spoke like us, and they shot at him
:10:17. > :10:21.and wounded him when he attempted to escape. That means that we
:10:21. > :10:26.should be fearful. There are people in Syria right now who have come
:10:26. > :10:30.from this country and are prepared to target fellow-citizens. You say
:10:30. > :10:35.that Syria is the new Afghanistan but we are not in Syria and we are
:10:35. > :10:39.not on the opposite side, as we were in Afghanistan. In a sense, we
:10:39. > :10:43.are on the same side. Both the jihadists and the British
:10:43. > :10:48.government want to see the end of Bashar Al-Assad. That logic would
:10:48. > :10:52.also apply to Chechnya. If somebody had been radicalised in the north
:10:52. > :10:56.Caucasus, you would think they would attack Russia, not America or
:10:56. > :11:01.Britain. But what happens is that when somebody becomes indoctrinated
:11:01. > :11:06.by the global jihadist ideology, the goal becomes global and the
:11:07. > :11:11.target becomes global. Any target is fair game? Not just any target
:11:11. > :11:17.but strategic targets, and Britain and America are strategic targets.
:11:17. > :11:21.Do you agree? Absolutely and completely. The fear is very real.
:11:21. > :11:25.On the other hand, you have to say that so far the security forces in
:11:25. > :11:29.the United States and in European countries have done pretty well.
:11:29. > :11:34.Quite a lot of plots have been foiled. One came to the Old Bailey
:11:34. > :11:38.today and was resolved with prison sentences. And there have been many
:11:38. > :11:41.more serious ones. And the fact that young men are travelling to
:11:41. > :11:45.Syria, Afghanistan or Pakistan at least gives something that the
:11:45. > :11:49.authorities can trace, because they can follow the movements and see
:11:49. > :11:54.who they are in contact with. The numbers might be large, and some of
:11:54. > :11:58.the people are being radicalised, but they may not be making these
:11:58. > :12:02.trips abroad, making them more difficult to follow. As the saying
:12:02. > :12:06.goes, you only have to be unlucky ones, and I suspect we will be
:12:06. > :12:10.unlucky again. For the moment, all praise to the security forces who
:12:10. > :12:15.have done an extremely good job in making sure we have not had deaths
:12:15. > :12:19.here since 7/7. Alan Johnson, you were a former Home Secretary, so
:12:19. > :12:26.you have had to deal with the intelligence assessments. Do you
:12:26. > :12:28.agree that the terrorist threat is getting more serious? Yes. I would
:12:28. > :12:32.question the point that the Americans believed that once they
:12:32. > :12:39.had dealt with Osama Bin Laden or that the problem of Al-Qaeda was
:12:39. > :12:42.over. When I was Home Secretary, the Quilliam Foundation and you and
:12:42. > :12:46.your colleague were becoming of great interest to the Americans
:12:46. > :12:50.because 9/11, the Americans thought it was an outside force attacking
:12:50. > :12:54.America. They did not believe they had a problem with Americans being
:12:54. > :12:57.radicalised. They were suddenly becoming interested in that when I
:12:57. > :13:01.was Home Secretary, and were very keen to talk to the Quilliam
:13:01. > :13:05.Foundation, who have done such good work there. The question about
:13:05. > :13:10.Syria is what to do about it, because some people take that
:13:10. > :13:13.analysis and say that Syria has started as a nationalist movement,
:13:13. > :13:17.and because they were not getting anywhere, because no other
:13:17. > :13:22.countries were intervening, the jihadists moved in. If that is an
:13:22. > :13:25.argument to say that we should intervene in Syria, I do not agree.
:13:25. > :13:30.If it is an argument to say that we should be aware of what Syria is
:13:30. > :13:33.doing, I hate to politicise the point of the Government, we hear
:13:33. > :13:36.today, are dropping the Communications Data Bill. Michael
:13:36. > :13:41.just talked about tracking where people are travelling, and this is
:13:41. > :13:47.not the time to be complacent about the terror threat. It has been
:13:47. > :13:50.called a snooper's charter. I saw it, and so does the Intelligence
:13:51. > :13:55.and Security Committee, as a major problem. We always had the ability
:13:55. > :13:59.with telephone calls and letters, because they were owned by the
:14:00. > :14:03.state. With the explosion of new methods of communication, they do
:14:03. > :14:13.not know, to the extent that they should, who is communicating with
:14:13. > :14:19.
:14:19. > :14:23.$:/STARTFEED. How do we view Al- Qaeda now, I viewed it as like a
:14:23. > :14:27.McDonald's, so many different parts to it where they take the name Al-
:14:27. > :14:31.Qaeda but it's a brand name, rather than a centralised organisation
:14:32. > :14:36.now? That's why I used the word global Jihadist insurgent because
:14:36. > :14:39.it's become a brand, the central command have weakened. I
:14:39. > :14:43.respectfully believe that what happens with the Americans after
:14:43. > :14:48.the killing of Bin Laden they felt the ideaology wouldn't have spread
:14:48. > :14:54.further. What we saw instead was the opposite. Al-Qaeda proper came
:14:54. > :15:02.to power in north Mali, they took over cities in south Yemen.
:15:02. > :15:08.Franchises joined them from Somalia and nienl ya, Shabab -- Nige that.
:15:08. > :15:14.Aye surprised the world by the assassination in Libya. Then we
:15:14. > :15:19.remember the attack at the gas plant in Nigeria. The idealogy of
:15:20. > :15:23.Jihadism has spread laterally and you no longer need directional
:15:23. > :15:29.command. So there is no central command and control now, like there
:15:29. > :15:34.was for 9/11 It's an inspiration. It finds itself in those parts of
:15:34. > :15:39.the world which are already pretty troubled like the Horn of Africa?
:15:39. > :15:43.When the troops withdraw, I think we'll witness a Taliban insurgent.
:15:43. > :15:47.The concern I have, although the command structure's weakened, the
:15:47. > :15:53.ideal of the idealogy has gained ground. It leads to the question -
:15:53. > :15:57.what is to be done? Indeed, what is to be done. I think recognising
:15:57. > :16:02.this as a debate means the solution doesn't lie in what Obama has been
:16:02. > :16:05.doing so far which is increasing what they call surgical drone
:16:05. > :16:09.strikes, because if you recognise the tart isn't the men but the
:16:09. > :16:13.ideas, the more men you take out with the collateral damage, you are
:16:13. > :16:18.giving strength to the ideas themselves that this is indeed
:16:18. > :16:21.somehow a war against Islam and Muslims. You agree with the Yemeni
:16:21. > :16:29.artist who testified before congress then? I think it was
:16:29. > :16:35.agreed that drone strikes are a counterproductive measure. Do you
:16:35. > :16:39.agree with that, Michael? It's become, by default, the main weapon
:16:39. > :16:43.of terrorism of the Obama administration? It has because it
:16:43. > :16:48.means Obama doesn't have to go to war so he doesn't have the
:16:48. > :16:51.political problems. It's a hard one because the drones are effective
:16:51. > :16:57.militarily. More or less whatever the West does, there is a narrative
:16:57. > :17:01.which is that the West is involved in an anti-Islamic campaign. By the
:17:01. > :17:05.way, if you are minded that way, you can put together a lot of
:17:05. > :17:10.different things and say western troops went into Iraq, Afghanistan,
:17:10. > :17:14.Libya, you know, it does add up to something in the end, doesn't it?
:17:14. > :17:19.If it's more decentralised, more small groups, lack of command and
:17:19. > :17:25.control at the centre, any attack is horrific, but the scale of
:17:25. > :17:29.Boston wasn't on the scale of 9/11 or even 7/7. Perhaps they don't
:17:29. > :17:32.have the same ability as before? Their operational ability has been
:17:32. > :17:36.affected because they are being relentlessly targeted. What I'm
:17:36. > :17:43.more concerned about is their ability to high jieck uprisings and
:17:43. > :17:48.innuens the agenda in the Middle East -- hijack uprisings and
:17:48. > :17:54.influence the agenda in the Middle East. We need to think about how we
:17:54. > :17:57.make the idealogy of Jihadism as unpopular as communism. We have to
:17:57. > :18:01.ask David Cameron about the generational struggle with these
:18:01. > :18:05.ideas and we are not going to see results in the next year or two.
:18:05. > :18:09.When you are faced with something like Syria, to finish on this, we
:18:09. > :18:12.have heard reports tonight British, European and American intelligence
:18:12. > :18:17.suggesting that chemical weapons may be used by the regime, but we
:18:17. > :18:22.are between a rock and a hard place because we would like to see the
:18:22. > :18:27.end of Mr Assad, but we don't want an Al-Qaeda-backed Government to
:18:27. > :18:31.take over. What do we do? We who controls the narrative controls the
:18:31. > :18:34.agenda. We are damned if we do and damned if we don't with Syria
:18:34. > :18:38.because somebody else is controlling the nah ti. We need to
:18:38. > :18:44.seize back the initiative and the narrative -- narrative. What would
:18:44. > :18:47.that mean? With Syria, I wouldn't say currently the solution is
:18:47. > :18:50.occupational invasion, but it would mean basically gaining the
:18:50. > :18:54.attention and popularising what we are doing for the democratic
:18:54. > :18:59.opposition and providing further support to them. Very interesting.
:18:59. > :19:03.Thank you very much. It's late, even babe station is
:19:03. > :19:08.winding down for the night and you have probably had enough of us
:19:08. > :19:14.already. Alan's laughing! We have one regular viewer whose loyalty
:19:14. > :19:18.cannot be questioned. Evening! Say hello to the wife. Glad you are
:19:18. > :19:25.hear, I don't know what we'd do without you these Thursday nights.
:19:25. > :19:30.If it's good enough for you and Mr Qatada, it's good enough for us.
:19:30. > :19:33.Waiting with perfect timing, the German comedy here to talk about
:19:33. > :19:37.the national myths, French for moths, that bind us all together.
:19:37. > :19:41.For those of you who believe any old nonsense, which is most of our
:19:41. > :19:45.viewers, head over to the Twitter and Fleecebook and if you are
:19:46. > :19:50.behind the times, don't get the good old interweb. It's no secret
:19:50. > :19:57.we like to flog a dead horse after we have drugged it of course, that
:19:57. > :20:05.seems to be the fashion, so with the economy barely spluttering into
:20:05. > :20:10.light, we sent our work experience slaves to find a story. No storm
:20:10. > :20:15.clouds gathering, not even a poorly organised pee up in a brewery, so
:20:15. > :20:20.we are left with no choice. We asked Matthew right to drive on to
:20:20. > :20:24.his vintage bike and rev the throttle slightly in a desperate
:20:24. > :20:34.attempt to demonstrate underpowered economic growth and give us his
:20:34. > :20:52.
:20:52. > :20:57.This is my absolute pride and joy. A panther 600cc. I know she's got a
:20:57. > :21:01.few miles on the clock but she's 61, for heavens' sake. I'll tell you
:21:02. > :21:06.this, there's nothing like riding a British vintage motorcycle on a
:21:06. > :21:08.warm summer's day. When it comes to her handling, she
:21:08. > :21:13.certainly demonstrates more finesse than George Osborne, though of
:21:13. > :21:18.course he's in charge of driving our economy. GDP figures out
:21:18. > :21:22.earlier showed a 0.3% rate of growth which means the country has
:21:22. > :21:25.avoided a stomach-lurching triple dip recession. This is more
:21:26. > :21:29.politically than economically significant. It gives George a good
:21:29. > :21:32.news story and adds to his narrative that the economy is
:21:33. > :21:37.slowly spluttering into life. would say there are encouraging
:21:37. > :21:39.signs, we have the deficit down by a third, over a million new jobs
:21:39. > :21:44.have been created in the private sector, we are making progress but
:21:44. > :21:47.I've never pretended that this is going to be a quick process.
:21:47. > :21:51.I've got something in my eye! Talking of which, the Archbishop of
:21:51. > :21:56.Canterbury proved to be a major irritant for the Chancellor earlier
:21:56. > :22:02.this week. Was he saying that only an act of God can save the economy?
:22:02. > :22:06.I would argue that what we are in at the moment is not a recession
:22:06. > :22:12.but essentially some kind of depression. It therefore takes
:22:12. > :22:18.something very, very major to get us out of it in the same way as it
:22:18. > :22:23.took something very major to get us into it. Any ideas, George?
:22:23. > :22:28.Anything? Time for a pit stop! George made a quick stop himself
:22:28. > :22:30.this week after travelling north to continue the Government's fight
:22:30. > :22:34.against Scottish independence, announcing that if Scotland does
:22:34. > :22:40.vote to go it alone, they can't bank on hanging on to this. The
:22:40. > :22:44.usual, please, love... If we had a eurozone-style currency
:22:44. > :22:47.arrangement, that would beg all sorts of questions about economic
:22:47. > :22:51.risks, about why a foreign Government, which is what the rest
:22:51. > :22:57.of the UK would have become, would want to enter into this arrangement,
:22:58. > :23:01.why it would want to tie itself to the economic policies of the
:23:01. > :23:08.Scottish Government. So frankly it's unlikely that the arrangement
:23:08. > :23:11.could be agreed with the rest of the UK or would work.
:23:11. > :23:14.Nice one. Thank you. With every opinion poll showing Scotland won't
:23:14. > :23:18.vote for independence, you have to ask yourself, doesn't George have
:23:18. > :23:22.anything better to do with his time than to wind up our friends in the
:23:22. > :23:27.north. Oi, where's my cherry? Lovely. No wonder Alex Salmond
:23:27. > :23:34.didn't seem bothered. Whatever the Chancellor of the Exchequer says
:23:34. > :23:38.now, it's condition for his anxiety for people voting independence.
:23:38. > :23:48.What happens is economic, rather than political interest prevailing.
:23:48. > :23:52.
:23:52. > :23:56.We say what's best for Scotland and Touch wood. I've always been a very
:23:56. > :24:00.safe and lucky rider so I've never seen the inside of A&E, which is
:24:00. > :24:05.probably just as well if you were to believe Ed Miliband.
:24:05. > :24:10.There is a crisis in A&E and it's no surprise he's cut the number of
:24:10. > :24:16.nurses, his NHS helpline is in crisis and he's wasting billions of
:24:16. > :24:20.pounds on a top down reorganisation that he promised wouldn't happen.
:24:20. > :24:26.The facts speak for themselves. The NHS is not safe in his hands.
:24:26. > :24:30.get your nicker bocker glories in a twist, Ed. The PM was having none
:24:30. > :24:36.of it. Let me give him some simple facts about what's happened in the
:24:36. > :24:40.NHS under this Government. 6,000 more doctors under this Government.
:24:40. > :24:45.7,000 fewer managers under this Government. A million more treated
:24:45. > :24:50.in A&E, half a million more day cases, mixed sex wards, commonplace
:24:50. > :24:55.under Labour, virtually abolished under this Government. Infection
:24:55. > :25:03.rates in the NHS at record low levels. Thank you very much, love.
:25:03. > :25:06.Lovely. Oi, get off my bike! My brother always trying to nick my
:25:06. > :25:10.seat. Feuding brothers, eh. Forget about
:25:10. > :25:14.the Milibands, there's been another fraternal tra that playing out in
:25:14. > :25:18.town after Boris's younger brother was appointed to head up Number
:25:18. > :25:28.Ten's policy unit. The appointment is supposed to help the public
:25:28. > :25:31.
:25:31. > :25:34.connect with the people. Abu Qatada has rode back into town.
:25:34. > :25:39.Theresa May, like countless Home Secretaries before her, has been
:25:39. > :25:43.trying to deport him to Jordan, but the court told her that her latest
:25:43. > :25:48.bid failed. Theresa May wasted no time donning her leathers, revving
:25:48. > :25:53.up the engine and giving it her all, announcing a new legal commitment
:25:53. > :25:55.with Jordan. I believe the treaty we have agreed with Jordan once
:25:55. > :25:59.ratified by both Members of Parliament will finally make
:25:59. > :26:03.possible the deportation of Abu Qatada. I have warned the House
:26:03. > :26:07.before, even when the treaty is fully ratified, it will not mean
:26:07. > :26:11.Abu Qatada will be on a mane to Jordan within days. It's like
:26:11. > :26:15.ground hog day all over again. The public doesn't understand why the
:26:15. > :26:19.Government went send him on the first plane out of here, but then
:26:19. > :26:29.they see the sinister shadow cast by the European court.
:26:29. > :26:38.
:26:38. > :26:44.I've got an idea. I'll take him on Matthew Wright at the Ace Cafe.
:26:44. > :26:49.Gillian tell joins us in our little cafe in Westminster. The Chancellor
:26:49. > :26:54.claims the growth figures show that the "Economy is beginning to heal"
:26:54. > :27:00.-- Gillian Tett. Is he right? probably not falling off a cliff,
:27:00. > :27:05.but there are signs of stablisation in places. I think you would give a
:27:05. > :27:10.chance for a B to B minus in terms of how the economy is performing.
:27:10. > :27:15.The saving grace is that most of Europe probably has a C minus, if
:27:15. > :27:19.not a D plus right now. Terrible figures coming out of Europe?
:27:19. > :27:24.Record unemployment in Spain and France, I mean astonishingly high
:27:24. > :27:33.levels of social pain over there. The newspapers pundits obsess about,
:27:33. > :27:35.is it up 0.3% or down 0.3%. Of course, the fact is the economy's
:27:35. > :27:38.largely flatlining, but it was symbolically important for the
:27:38. > :27:43.Government? It was. As were the borrowing figures where it shaded
:27:43. > :27:47.the right way, just. It doesn't alter the fact that, apart from
:27:47. > :27:56.Italy, out of G7 countries, where we have got the worst performance
:27:56. > :27:59.for getting back to our pre- recession level. We are 2.6% lower.
:27:59. > :28:02.Germany, Canada and the US are back where they were. The Chancellor
:28:02. > :28:08.would say that's because we had the biggest financial services industry
:28:08. > :28:13.as a proportion pof our GDP and we therefore took the biggest hit.
:28:13. > :28:18.That would be a fair point if it wasn't for the boom bust that
:28:18. > :28:22.George gave us in 2010. It was nothing to do with the banking
:28:22. > :28:25.crisis, nothing to do with the fact that we had the biggest financial
:28:25. > :28:30.services in the world, it was to do with the previous Government. I
:28:30. > :28:35.think he said we are now out of danger zone in 2010. It's obvious
:28:35. > :28:45.we weren't out of the danger zone. I don't know if you had a short
:28:45. > :28:45.
:28:45. > :28:51.hand when you were a rookie journalist. You go up and down and
:28:51. > :28:56.across, in Pitman and it's a good way of capturing what is going on,
:28:56. > :28:59.because it flatlines. Britain was massively overleveraged with too
:28:59. > :29:02.much debt. Unfortunately, it's going to have to work through the
:29:02. > :29:07.debt and the chance of anything other than a lot of sluggish
:29:07. > :29:12.performances for quite a while is low. How important are the lack of
:29:12. > :29:17.growth figures? Are the voters taking note of this? Are the people
:29:17. > :29:22.taking note of this, or are they more concerned that living
:29:22. > :29:25.standards are still squeezed? I would have thought the more
:29:25. > :29:35.significantly electoral figure is that the earning figures in March
:29:35. > :29:41.
:29:41. > :29:45.showed a 0% rise on February of The markets are taking note. The
:29:46. > :29:51.crucial battle for the Government is continuing to finance a new debt
:29:51. > :29:57.at around 2%, as opposed to 5%, as the Italians and Spanish are paying.
:29:57. > :30:02.That is because the Bank of England is buying most of it. We can print
:30:02. > :30:06.money and devalue our currency, terrific flexibility. To emphasise
:30:06. > :30:10.the point about Spain, more than 6 million unemployed, a country
:30:10. > :30:14.smaller than ours. That figure was terrifying because it reminded me
:30:14. > :30:23.of my history at university, 6 million unemployed when Hitler came
:30:23. > :30:28.to power in Germany. It is quite astounding. Mr Miliband is not
:30:28. > :30:31.without his problems as well. It is interesting that Labour is still in
:30:31. > :30:36.some difficulties even though hardly any economic indicators are
:30:36. > :30:43.going the right way for the Government. What did you make of
:30:43. > :30:49.Unite's Len McCluskey's attack? had my own and spat with him a few
:30:49. > :30:54.weeks ago. Renaissance, it is good for Ed Miliband, because part of
:30:54. > :31:04.the portrayal of Ed Miliband as the only one, that he was the prisoner
:31:04. > :31:04.
:31:04. > :31:08.of Len McCluskey and Unite. So is it a set-up? I do not think so.
:31:08. > :31:13.Coming up to local government elections, it is an extraordinary
:31:14. > :31:19.intervention to attack two people, Douglas Alexander and Jim Murphy,
:31:19. > :31:24.both loyal colleagues who have not done anything that I have seen to
:31:24. > :31:27.stir up disunity. Has Alex Salmond got himself into a bit of a mess by
:31:27. > :31:33.saying Scotland will become an independent country but it will
:31:33. > :31:38.retain Monetary Union with the rest of the UK, in the sense that what
:31:38. > :31:42.the eurozone shows is that monetary union without fiscal or political
:31:42. > :31:46.union does not work? It is an argument that is moving away from
:31:46. > :31:50.him. It would normally be an argument of obscurity that the
:31:50. > :31:54.public will not understand, but at the moment they will be able to.
:31:54. > :31:58.George Osborne is playing a political game, but it is a
:31:58. > :32:03.political game with a common sense. Underneath it. If we imagine the
:32:03. > :32:07.Scottish government pursuing the policy is the SNP favour, high
:32:07. > :32:10.public spending, high taxation, high levels of deficit, it is
:32:10. > :32:17.difficult to see how that can exist within a single currency which is
:32:17. > :32:21.shared with the UK, where the UK is pursuing different fiscal policies.
:32:21. > :32:25.I could not agree more. If I was Alex Salmond, the last thing I
:32:25. > :32:30.would want to start talking about is a virtual currency union, given
:32:30. > :32:35.what is happening in Europe. It will be hard to pull that off.
:32:35. > :32:38.may be blowing up in his face, but he is saying, we can have
:32:38. > :32:43.independence and not much would change. We will still have the
:32:43. > :32:48.Queen, armed services and we will still be in Europe, but we will not
:32:48. > :32:54.have the Euro. The original policy was independence within Europe with
:32:54. > :32:59.the euro. A few years ago Alex Salmond was sniffy about sterling.
:32:59. > :33:04.He used to say the Bank of England was only concerned about the South
:33:04. > :33:08.of England. I thought the message was excellent but I worry about the
:33:08. > :33:12.messenger. Danny Alexander was there, but maybe he was the one to
:33:12. > :33:19.convey the message, given the way that George Osborne's personality
:33:19. > :33:28.goes down. There are more pandas in Edinburgh Sudan there are MPs in
:33:28. > :33:31.Scotland. -- in Edinburgh Zoo. big story of the day, Boris
:33:31. > :33:38.Johnson's brother in Number 10. Not many people have heard of Joe
:33:38. > :33:44.Johnson but he was your colleague at the Financial Times. We have a
:33:44. > :33:48.rich dynasty of Johnson's having gone through our ranks. He is a man
:33:48. > :33:52.of brilliant brains and equally strong self-confidence and opinions.
:33:52. > :33:57.I look forward to seeing how he will get on with his colleagues at
:33:57. > :34:01.Number 10. I think it is encouraging that those close to
:34:02. > :34:06.David Cameron, people that say that David Cameron is surrounded by old
:34:06. > :34:12.Loughtonians, don't you think this appointment proves it? Hold on, he
:34:12. > :34:18.went to Eton and then Oxford. Oh, and he was in the Bullingdon club,
:34:18. > :34:23.too. That is good. Somebody needs to get a grip of the machine,
:34:23. > :34:30.Number 10. If Joe Johnson ran the Lexa Kong, he has the right
:34:30. > :34:34.intellectual calibre. Let's hope he has the right skills. I was the
:34:34. > :34:37.head of that as well and it is a nightmare job, trying to organise a
:34:37. > :34:41.group of self-confident and cocky people in getting them to agree on
:34:41. > :34:47.something. If he could do that at the Financial Times, Number 10
:34:47. > :34:52.should be a walk in the park. Abu Qatada saga continues. It was
:34:52. > :34:58.around when you were Home Secretary. It could be that the deal with
:34:58. > :35:02.Jordan is again changer. Can we also agree that the idea of Britain
:35:02. > :35:09.doing a temporary exit, getting rid of him and coming back in,
:35:09. > :35:12.squadrons of pigs would be flying? It would be illegal. We did it
:35:12. > :35:17.during the Northern Ireland troubles, to get internment without
:35:17. > :35:21.trial, because there was a national issue. Article 15 of the convention
:35:21. > :35:25.allows you to do this where there is a strict necessity. To try to do
:35:25. > :35:32.it, and to then breach the UN convention on torture, which is
:35:32. > :35:36.very important, it would be illegal, so it is a non starter. That
:35:36. > :35:41.Government is not brave enough to leave the European Convention on
:35:41. > :35:46.Human Rights even temporarily. I think it was shut up. We have run
:35:46. > :35:50.out of time. Good to see you again. Now, there are many myths
:35:50. > :35:54.associated with a show like This Week, the origins of which are lost
:35:54. > :35:57.in the mists of BBC time. But there are some things even we wouldn't
:35:58. > :36:03.dare lie to you about. For example, Molly the dog really does live with
:36:03. > :36:07.me. Alan "AJ" Johnson really does choose his own shirts. And Michael
:36:07. > :36:13.Portillo really does warm up before every show with 500 naked star
:36:13. > :36:19.jumps, whilst shouting "Who da man? You da man!" into his dressing room
:36:19. > :36:22.mirror. Cross my heart. But not everyone is so truthful, so we've
:36:22. > :36:32.decided to test the theory, and put national myths in this week's
:36:32. > :36:41.
:36:41. > :36:48.Saint George's dragon slaying myth appeared the least ridiculous part
:36:48. > :36:51.of the day. England's other less saintly George chose the same day
:36:51. > :36:57.to warm the Scots that if the myth says they like to hang onto their
:36:57. > :37:02.pennies, they should think twice about giving up their pounds. So,
:37:02. > :37:06.are these national myths essential, binding us together as a society,
:37:06. > :37:12.just as a currency does economically? Does it matter if the
:37:12. > :37:18.American Dream is sometimes more than fiction? If the Germans
:37:18. > :37:25.actually have a sense of humour? Maybe French men are rubbish in bed.
:37:25. > :37:34.At least we know where the truth ends and the myth begins. As anyone
:37:34. > :37:42.who has witnessed us at Annabel's can surely attest.
:37:42. > :37:49.We are joined by Henning Wehn. Is it not the case that some national
:37:49. > :37:59.myths are true? Take German football teams this week. Amazing,
:37:59. > :38:00.
:38:00. > :38:07.efficient game winners. Amazing. The Polish striker scored four
:38:07. > :38:12.goals. Amazing! It is very good because Germany were not doing very
:38:12. > :38:21.well in football. We have not won a major tournament for 17 years. We
:38:21. > :38:26.have not been to a final for 36 months. They play a very efficient
:38:26. > :38:31.kind of football. At the moment, they have not won anything for many
:38:31. > :38:36.years. At the moment, you are watching and you think, are they
:38:36. > :38:46.really the teams from the bond as leader? It looks good if you are
:38:46. > :38:47.
:38:47. > :38:52.watching England. Or Scotland. Scotland still play football? Some
:38:52. > :38:59.of your material is based on myths about Germans and the British. But
:38:59. > :39:04.are they true, or do you dwell on them to get a laugh? Truth is just
:39:04. > :39:09.repetition of lies, isn't it? If you say it over and over again,
:39:09. > :39:19.finally people will believe it. was a famous German who said that.
:39:19. > :39:23.
:39:23. > :39:29.Who are you talking about? I think There is always a grain of truth in
:39:29. > :39:35.them, I think. But over time it becomes exaggerated and gets a life
:39:35. > :39:39.of its own. Like Germans not having a sense of humour, for example.
:39:39. > :39:45.What was a myth about Britain that you hold and turned out not to be
:39:45. > :39:51.true when you came? I did not really have an idea of what Britain
:39:51. > :39:58.was like. My whole idea of Britain was essentially based on TV adverts.
:39:58. > :40:08.I expected everyone to live in castles and go fox-hunting.
:40:08. > :40:15.what is your point? That is only the Cabinet. Someone said David
:40:15. > :40:22.Cameron thought Downton Abbey was reality TV. Our national myths used
:40:22. > :40:26.for? I would suggest the American national myth of the American Dream,
:40:27. > :40:33.anybody can get on, particularly for an immigrant nation, that is a
:40:33. > :40:36.narrative for immigrants, isn't it? That is the best example. Quite a
:40:36. > :40:44.lot of British myths are unhelpful. One British myth is that we have
:40:44. > :40:52.not been invaded since the 1066. Actually, we were invaded in 1216
:40:52. > :40:57.and 1688. In 1688 we were conquered by a Dutchman. But I think the idea
:40:57. > :41:03.that we have not been invaded since the 1066 informs much of our view
:41:03. > :41:07.of the world, and it happens not to be true. So national myths can be
:41:07. > :41:15.dangerous or misleading? Yes, the myth that Conservatives can always
:41:15. > :41:19.run the economy well... I am glad you are not being party-political.
:41:19. > :41:29.I used to think German-trained ran on time, but they discovered they
:41:29. > :41:29.
:41:29. > :41:36.do not. -- German trains. That started with reunification in 1990.
:41:36. > :41:41.Until then, spot-on. We liked nothing better than telling stories
:41:41. > :41:47.about other nationalities. The oldest Hackney joke about the
:41:48. > :41:52.Germans from the Brits is about the bath towels by the swimming pool,
:41:52. > :41:59.there from 6am in the morning. What do the Germans think when they hear
:41:59. > :42:04.this trotted out again and again? They do not really here it. It is a
:42:04. > :42:08.very insular rumour in the UK about foreigners. It is the Brits talking
:42:08. > :42:14.to themselves and no one gets it. What is the biggest myth that
:42:14. > :42:18.Germans have about the Brits? tricky. There are not many myths or
:42:18. > :42:24.stereotypes about Britain, because of the class divide. On the one
:42:24. > :42:29.hand you have the idea of everyone living in a castle. Then you go on
:42:29. > :42:33.holiday to Spain and you see the Brits holidaying abroad. Those two
:42:33. > :42:41.stereotypes, you cannot get them into one. That is a result, because
:42:41. > :42:47.of the class divide. You do not want those who go to Spain going to
:42:47. > :42:53.Germany. Know, you do not want them. What is the biggest myth about
:42:53. > :42:59.Britain? The -- probably that we are self-effacing, whereas really
:42:59. > :43:08.we are quite immodest and proud of what we do. I think the invasion
:43:08. > :43:14.one. The biggest myth about Britain? The idea of tolerance.
:43:14. > :43:21.think that is a myth? What is tolerance? Essentially, something
:43:22. > :43:25.you really dislike. I do not think you should be allowed to say that!
:43:25. > :43:29.Thank you very much. That's it for tonight, but not for
:43:29. > :43:31.us, because we're off to Annabel's to confirm our total lack of
:43:31. > :43:33.preparations for next week's potentially disastrous live
:43:33. > :43:37.audience show. Michael and Alan will finally come face-to-face with
:43:37. > :43:42.their stalking public. Their stalking public will finally come
:43:42. > :43:47.face to face with their satin shirts. And Molly the dog will no
:43:47. > :43:50.doubt cock a leg on a fuse box and throw us all off air. But we leave
:43:50. > :43:53.you tonight with public enemy number one, a highly dangerous
:43:53. > :43:57.individual who must be enjoying sending the Home Secretary, Theresa