0:00:00 > 0:00:06I think we have hit the big time now. They live audience. The bright
0:00:06 > 0:00:16lights of London. Celebrities. I even think the paparazzi is chasing
0:00:16 > 0:00:22
0:00:22 > 0:00:26We are here, sir. Where are we? Shepherd's Bush, west London, not
0:00:26 > 0:00:31somewhere I usually come after dark. Shepherd's Bush! You would have
0:00:31 > 0:00:41thought we could afford something posher than that. Question Time got
0:00:41 > 0:00:42
0:00:42 > 0:00:52St Paul's a couple of weeks ago. Give us a smile. �20 for you, but
0:00:52 > 0:00:57
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Morley is free. Any chance of her From the heart of West London,
0:01:00 > 0:01:10broadcasting around the world, sort of, it's This Week, with Andrew
0:01:10 > 0:01:13
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Tonight, Michael "choo choo" Portillo. Alan "AJ" Johnson. Man of
0:01:17 > 0:01:23the moment, Nigel Farage, and his pint of beer. Stand-up comedian and
0:01:23 > 0:01:28former prison officer Ava Vidal. One-woman show-off Christine
0:01:28 > 0:01:38Hamilton. And your host, cub reporter and Paisley boy, Andrew
0:01:38 > 0:01:54
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Evenin' all. Welcome to a very special This Week. A one-off, never
0:01:56 > 0:02:01to be repeated, potentially disastrous, career-threatening car
0:02:01 > 0:02:03crash of a show. With, for the very first time, a semi-comatose, over-
0:02:03 > 0:02:13the-limit, care-in-the-community audience of seriously tragic This
0:02:13 > 0:02:17
0:02:17 > 0:02:21Week fans. The Blue Nun is flowing, as are Michael's bowels. But the
0:02:21 > 0:02:25rest of us are far too excited to be nervous, because, helping us
0:02:25 > 0:02:35stagger through the next 45 minutes, I'm joined tonight by my very own
0:02:35 > 0:02:45
0:02:45 > 0:02:53personal harpist, the fabulous # You are my new boys
0:02:53 > 0:02:55# My new fellows # Don't know how we are going to
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Blaise # I know we are done with
0:02:58 > 0:03:08yesterday's # Because you are my new boy is
0:03:08 > 0:03:10
0:03:10 > 0:03:19# So let's just wait and see how it goes. #
0:03:19 > 0:03:22More from Lucinda later. She follows me everywhere, you know.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24Now, tonight's experiment in meltdown TV is only happening
0:03:24 > 0:03:28because of our unrivalled "commitment to public service", to
0:03:28 > 0:03:38quote Tory MP Jesse Norman, who was trying to explain why there were so
0:03:38 > 0:03:42many Old Etonians in the Government. Well, same here. Yes, we use the
0:03:42 > 0:03:45very same meritocratic recruitment agency as Downing Street. As a
0:03:45 > 0:03:51result, our entire production team is staffed exclusively by selfless
0:03:51 > 0:03:55old Etonians. Old Etonians chosen purely on the basis of ability,
0:03:55 > 0:03:58plus, of course, the right sort of accent and breeding, who think
0:03:58 > 0:04:01nothing of the glittering prizes and social status they could have
0:04:01 > 0:04:04had if they'd been selfish enough to become teachers, nurses, social
0:04:04 > 0:04:07workers or care assistants, choosing instead a more humble path
0:04:07 > 0:04:10of self-sacrifice, devoting their working lives to the poor and the
0:04:10 > 0:04:14wretched, which is the typical This Week viewer, in a desperate hope
0:04:14 > 0:04:17that they may one day convince the Cheeky Girls to make a film for us
0:04:17 > 0:04:27about the internal contradictions at the heart of the Bank of
0:04:27 > 0:04:37
0:04:37 > 0:04:42England's quantitative easing policy. Oh, yes! That, for This
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Week old Etonians, is indeed the promised land. Speaking of those
0:04:45 > 0:04:49who will do anything to avoid getting a proper job, I'm joined on
0:04:49 > 0:04:54the sofa tonight by two men who we've enticed down from the fourth
0:04:54 > 0:05:03plinth in Trafalgar Square. The rockin' red rooster and giant blue
0:05:03 > 0:05:05cockerel of late night political chat. I speak, of course, of
0:05:05 > 0:05:15#manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain Michael "choo
0:05:15 > 0:05:38
0:05:39 > 0:05:42And not forgetting the real star of You're moment of the week?
0:05:42 > 0:05:47President Obama has said to Congress that Guantanamo Bay should
0:05:47 > 0:05:50be closed. Now, he had actually promised to close it within one
0:05:50 > 0:05:54year of coming to office, three years ago. It is the most
0:05:54 > 0:05:58horrendous problem for the Americans because they now have 166
0:05:58 > 0:06:03guys there who, even if they were not radical when they went in there,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07are now completely radicalised. Supposedly 100 are on hunger strike
0:06:07 > 0:06:11and some of them will die. This is the most horrible advertisement for
0:06:11 > 0:06:16the United States, which prides itself on justice and due process.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19It is going to be very difficult to bring prosecutions against them. If
0:06:19 > 0:06:23you release any of them, having been radicalised by 10 years in
0:06:23 > 0:06:30Guantanamo, you will have a problem. So your prediction is that they
0:06:30 > 0:06:37will not get out under his term? Exactly. But he will blame Congress.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Which he is doing already. Alan, your moment of the week.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44Afghans work as interpreters for the British army in Afghanistan.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48They assist the army and the army could not do its job without them.
0:06:48 > 0:06:53When they leave, they will be sitting targets. The United Nations
0:06:53 > 0:06:57say that last year, the Taliban assassinated 700 Afghans for
0:06:57 > 0:07:00conspiring, in their terms, with the government. This government is
0:07:00 > 0:07:05apparently faffing around as to whether to give those of them that
0:07:05 > 0:07:09want asylum asylum. It is a real no-brainer. They have a moral
0:07:09 > 0:07:11obligation to these people and they should give them asylum. Of course.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Interesting. Now, this week the Government
0:07:15 > 0:07:18opened a new front in the war on those it deems living the high life
0:07:18 > 0:07:20at the expense of hard-pressed, law-abiding taxpayers, announcing
0:07:20 > 0:07:24strict new rules on access to gym equipment, daytime television,
0:07:24 > 0:07:27which is a real threat to the Daily Politics, and a much longer working
0:07:27 > 0:07:34day. Fortunately for Michael Portillo, if not for Chris Huhne,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38the new rules only apply to prisoners. So as long as he stays
0:07:38 > 0:07:41one step ahead of plod, he's free to carry on with his profligate
0:07:41 > 0:07:45ways as usual. But those already doing porridge are not getting off
0:07:45 > 0:07:55so lightly. And so we turned to stand-up comedian and former prison
0:07:55 > 0:08:02
0:08:02 > 0:08:07officer Ava Vidal. This is her take Anyone who thinks prison is a
0:08:07 > 0:08:11holiday camp clearly has not spent any time in a prison. I have. I
0:08:11 > 0:08:15spent five years behind these walls at Pentonville's men prison in
0:08:15 > 0:08:19north London, working as a prison officer. I have also been to
0:08:19 > 0:08:23Butlins, so I understand how the comparison could be drawn, but
0:08:23 > 0:08:33believe me, it is ridiculous. Politicians of all parties just do
0:08:33 > 0:08:36
0:08:36 > 0:08:39The punishment when you break the law and a sentence is loss of
0:08:39 > 0:08:43liberty. Prisons are rough places. The first few months of working in
0:08:43 > 0:08:47one, you are ill all the time because you come into contact with
0:08:47 > 0:08:50germs he never even knew existed. In the winter it is too cold, in
0:08:50 > 0:08:55the summer it is too hot, and it seems fights break out every 30
0:08:55 > 0:09:01minutes. Prisoners are full of anger, energy, pent up frustration.
0:09:01 > 0:09:09How do the Government think restricting Jim access is going to
0:09:09 > 0:09:12help at all. Chris Grayling announced this week that convicted
0:09:12 > 0:09:16mail Print -- prisoners would have to wear uniform for the first two
0:09:16 > 0:09:20weeks of their sentence. You might as well put a target sign on the
0:09:20 > 0:09:24back of their trousers. When first time offenders come into prison
0:09:24 > 0:09:27they are often terrified. I have seen grown men break down and cried.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32In a prison like this, with different category is of inmates,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35that idea is not only pointless but downright dangerous. There seems to
0:09:35 > 0:09:40be a view held by readers of a certain newspaper that British
0:09:40 > 0:09:44prisons are full of child rapists watching satellite TV. During that
0:09:44 > 0:09:50time that I worked here, hardly any inmates got to watch TV at all,
0:09:50 > 0:09:52which is a shame for this week's viewing figures. For the sake of
0:09:52 > 0:09:56everyone in prison, prisons should be allowed to maintain their
0:09:56 > 0:10:01dignity. If you start treating a human being like an animal, you
0:10:01 > 0:10:05cannot be surprised if they start acting like one.
0:10:05 > 0:10:15From Pentonville prison to our little prison. Ava Vidal are,
0:10:15 > 0:10:20
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Now, isn't prison meant to be not a very nice place, to deter people
0:10:24 > 0:10:28from ending up there? It isn't a very nice place. Losing your
0:10:28 > 0:10:31liberty is supposed to be the punishment. Do you think that the
0:10:31 > 0:10:37way that you see it is what would suit a prison officer, rather than
0:10:37 > 0:10:41what does not suit a prisoner? The idea of prisoners not to make life
0:10:41 > 0:10:46easy for prison officers. It is not. Obviously, that has to be taken
0:10:46 > 0:10:50into consideration. If you are going to make a place dangerous for
0:10:50 > 0:10:54you to work in, why would anyone want that? Is there a shortage of
0:10:54 > 0:10:58prison officers? Well, there is, and a lot of people are leaving the
0:10:58 > 0:11:02job quite early. I was speaking to someone who was working at Wormwood
0:11:02 > 0:11:06Scrubs and left after three months. People leave after a few months and
0:11:06 > 0:11:12do not want to work in the job. Alan, his prison a tough, horrible
0:11:12 > 0:11:16environment? I think it is and the purpose of prisoners to make sure
0:11:16 > 0:11:21people do not reoffend. If this contributes to that, it is fine.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25Chris Grayling has form on this. And on the same day that it was
0:11:25 > 0:11:31announced that 10,000 people who had committed serious violent
0:11:31 > 0:11:35offences were not prosecuted, or even cautioned. They were given
0:11:35 > 0:11:39community services. Five years ago that figure was 800. On the one
0:11:39 > 0:11:42hand, the Government is saying, we are getting tough on crime. On the
0:11:42 > 0:11:46other hand, for people who have committed those serious violent
0:11:46 > 0:11:49offences, they can watch all the TV they want because they will be
0:11:49 > 0:11:55nowhere near a prison. If the purpose is that people do not
0:11:55 > 0:12:01reoffend, it is clearly not working. For adult male prisoners the
0:12:01 > 0:12:04reoffending rate is 52% and for young offenders it is 78%. Michael,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07is the Government right to make prison seem tougher? I am
0:12:07 > 0:12:10suspicious of what the Government has said in the last few days,
0:12:10 > 0:12:14again because of the timing. I think the public is pretty shocked
0:12:14 > 0:12:18at what is being made available in prison. I had no idea prisoners
0:12:18 > 0:12:22were not wearing prison uniform. I cannot see any reason for prisoners
0:12:22 > 0:12:25not to wear prison uniform. I think a lot of the things around
0:12:25 > 0:12:29television are there for the convenience of prison officers.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33Because, of course, people who are very bored, like boards children,
0:12:33 > 0:12:38are much more difficult to control than people who can lose their
0:12:38 > 0:12:42minds watching television all day. I agree that prison is a pretty
0:12:42 > 0:12:48nasty place anyway, because the people in prison make it very nasty
0:12:48 > 0:12:51for each other, both prisoners and prison officers. But I do think the
0:12:51 > 0:12:56public at some level feel duped. I think what they must feel duped
0:12:56 > 0:13:00about is not the television but the sentences. It is the idea that your
0:13:00 > 0:13:03sentenced to 10 years but you end up serving three-and-a-half. I know
0:13:03 > 0:13:13that is done for reasons of prison control, to give people an
0:13:13 > 0:13:20
0:13:21 > 0:13:25incentive to behave well, but the $:/STARTFEED. When you say they are
0:13:25 > 0:13:30given ten and do five, they should do the other five. What the
0:13:30 > 0:13:34Government wants to implement won't be good for anyone. Are you saying
0:13:34 > 0:13:39Sky TV is Draconian? Sky TV is being watched by prisoners all over
0:13:39 > 0:13:43the place is the way it's being portrayed. That's not true. If the
0:13:43 > 0:13:48Government hadn't privatised prisons, there wouldn't be sky TV.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Should prisoners wear uniforms? there's something about this being
0:13:51 > 0:13:54put into a category. Ava will understand this more. It's about
0:13:54 > 0:13:58red tape because there are different categories of prisoner.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03What Chris Grayling is saying is that for the first two years, they
0:14:03 > 0:14:07should wear a uniform. Does that suggest for the first two years
0:14:07 > 0:14:14they don't and when they move on to another level in prison they
0:14:14 > 0:14:17should? I thought for the first two weeks it was new prisoners.
0:14:17 > 0:14:23Thirlwall behaved they can come out of uniform and wear their own
0:14:23 > 0:14:33clothes. They are encouraged not to wear their own clothes so they
0:14:33 > 0:14:34
0:14:34 > 0:14:43don't set their own clothes on fire because they often set the other
0:14:43 > 0:14:47clothes on fire. The time when suicide risk is the first two weeks.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50Why do you need to do that? There are induction wings for new
0:14:50 > 0:14:53prisoners anyway so why highlight them to the rest of the prison
0:14:53 > 0:14:58population and put them at risk? Give me one major change you would
0:14:58 > 0:15:04make to prison policy that would make prisons a better place, and by
0:15:04 > 0:15:07that I mean not just a place of punishment but a place of
0:15:07 > 0:15:10rehabilitation? Work and Ken Clarke's rehabilitation revolution
0:15:10 > 0:15:14was about bringing work into prison so prisoners weren't doing nothing
0:15:15 > 0:15:20all day and work would be heart of the rehabilitation so they could
0:15:20 > 0:15:24have a skill and something to do. It must be aimed at stopping
0:15:24 > 0:15:29reoffending. Literacy and having rewards and punishments for
0:15:29 > 0:15:33progress and failures. What happened to the Ken Clarke
0:15:33 > 0:15:37rehabilitation programme? It all goes round in circles. Chris
0:15:37 > 0:15:42Grayling came in! It goes round in circles, doesn't it. A few years
0:15:42 > 0:15:51ago we had the policy of trying to reduce the prison population. Now
0:15:51 > 0:15:57we seem to have population -- populations increasing. It goes
0:15:57 > 0:16:00round and nothing seems to change very much. When you were or if you
0:16:01 > 0:16:04were Home Secretary what change would you make? It seems like we
0:16:04 > 0:16:07are moving to an American-type system with longer sentences and
0:16:07 > 0:16:15big companies are having contracts with prisoners. If you are a big
0:16:15 > 0:16:20company and there's one that had a contract with Pentonville which --
0:16:20 > 0:16:24when I worked there which I can't name, they were giving them jobs
0:16:24 > 0:16:29and they are paying them �3 a week for it. It seems to me that they
0:16:29 > 0:16:35are moving towards this like slave system like in the US. What's
0:16:35 > 0:16:40tougher, being a standup comedian or being a prison officer? Both
0:16:40 > 0:16:45very similar! Ava Vida!
0:16:45 > 0:16:50CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Now, it's late, it's late, it's so
0:16:50 > 0:16:54late even babe station are running a test card.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59But it's a very interesting test card. Anyway, let me dangle some
0:16:59 > 0:17:03even more tempting treats before you. Coming up soon, the man
0:17:03 > 0:17:09dragging the Tory party to the right, Nigel Farage, he'll be here
0:17:09 > 0:17:12soon and a woman dragging us into the past and talking nostalgia,
0:17:12 > 0:17:16Nigel's very own fairy godmother, Christine Hamilton. She'll be
0:17:17 > 0:17:20popping in for a chat too. If for some reason you can't wipe away any
0:17:20 > 0:17:25of the thoughts from tonight's show from your memory, relive the horror
0:17:25 > 0:17:30of it on the Twitter, the Fleecebook oh yeah and the old
0:17:30 > 0:17:35relic of the Blair Brown days, the long forgotten interweb.
0:17:35 > 0:17:45Lucinda, help us out, please, give us at least something to remember
0:17:45 > 0:17:45
0:17:46 > 0:17:55you by? # Time won't wait for you to hold
0:17:56 > 0:17:59
0:17:59 > 0:18:05# I say time won't wait for you... CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:18:05 > 0:18:10Now, today, the polls opened and the people have spoken. We are not
0:18:10 > 0:18:18quite sure what they've said yet, because most votes won't be dounted
0:18:18 > 0:18:23until tomorrow. If -- counted until tomorrow.
0:18:23 > 0:18:28Nigel Farage's populist insurgent appears to be spooking all the main
0:18:28 > 0:18:33parties. Even normally unflappable Ken Clarke was moved to call them
0:18:33 > 0:18:38clowns. Clowns! How could he?! Since he was wearing a baggy brown
0:18:38 > 0:18:43roll-neck sweater and looked like he was auditioning to be the new
0:18:43 > 0:18:51Captain Birds Eye, it kind of detracted from what he was saying
0:18:51 > 0:18:56so we send the Independent's Mary- Anne Seaghart into the political
0:18:56 > 0:19:00circus to find out what is happening in the political week.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04Roll up, roll up, it's the greatest show on earth. Not long left. Grab
0:19:04 > 0:19:11your seats while you can. Politicians have been touring the
0:19:11 > 0:19:17country this week trying to drum up support for their acts but it's
0:19:17 > 0:19:26been a spectacular campaign and when we wake up tomorrow, we may
0:19:26 > 0:19:32find not enough of us have voted. UKIP have joined the circus and
0:19:32 > 0:19:37veteran Tory MP Ken Clarke was keen to slap a red nose on them. Very
0:19:37 > 0:19:40tempting to vote for a bunch of clowns or indignant people who
0:19:41 > 0:19:44promise somehow they'll allow you to take revenge on the people that
0:19:44 > 0:19:47caused it. You should vote for people who you think will be
0:19:47 > 0:19:51sensible county councillors. Trouble is, once you start
0:19:51 > 0:19:55insulting UKIP, their voters feel they are being insulted too. And
0:19:55 > 0:19:58they are just the sort of people the Tories need to win back. So
0:19:58 > 0:20:01this week, David Cameron decided to ignore his rivals all together. He
0:20:01 > 0:20:05couldn't even bring himself to mention their name in interviews.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09My view is this election is about who you want to run your county
0:20:09 > 0:20:12council and if you want to keep the council tax down, if you want good
0:20:12 > 0:20:16services, sensible decision-making, vote Conservative. I'm a
0:20:16 > 0:20:19participant in this election for the Conservatives. I'm going to
0:20:19 > 0:20:24talk about them, rather than anybody else. The Tory leader
0:20:24 > 0:20:27strategy is to try to win back UKIP voters by hinting on legislation
0:20:27 > 0:20:31for an EU referendum and also to talk about freezing council tax
0:20:31 > 0:20:35which is not a bad ploy when cost- of-living is high in voters' minds.
0:20:35 > 0:20:40But he's hardly been setting the shires alight, or indeed making
0:20:40 > 0:20:43them laugh the way Nigel Farage does. The truth is, these elections
0:20:43 > 0:20:47aren't hugely important to the Tories because we are still in the
0:20:47 > 0:20:51mid term of a Parliament. Some mutinous Tory MPs are seeing them
0:20:51 > 0:20:58as a gauge of how well Cameron is doing, so if he loses many hundreds
0:20:58 > 0:21:01of seats tonight, he's going to have to watch his back.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05It's a tough job being party leader and Ed Miliband really needs to
0:21:05 > 0:21:08work on his political muscle. He gave a very weak radio interview
0:21:08 > 0:21:12this week which didn't exactly portray him as a man to lift the
0:21:12 > 0:21:17economy out of its woes. People are asking us this very important
0:21:17 > 0:21:20question about the country which is, are our problems so deep that
0:21:20 > 0:21:25nobody can make a difference to them - my emphatic answer is yes.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Ouch, I winced when I heard that. A slip of the tongue it may have been,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31but the problem for Ed is that, if he has strong convictions, he's not
0:21:31 > 0:21:36showing it. If he thinks that higher borrowing now will lead to
0:21:36 > 0:21:40lower borrowing later, why not just say so? He's got another problem
0:21:40 > 0:21:45too. He staked a lot on this One Nation Labour business, meaning
0:21:45 > 0:21:54he's really got to win seats in the south today. He's made a rod for
0:21:54 > 0:21:57his own back -- made a rod for his own back.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00Bringing up the rear and struggling to hold on to third place in the
0:22:00 > 0:22:04polls are the Liberal Democrats. The trouble is that they are no
0:22:04 > 0:22:09longer the party that people want to pin their protest vote on.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11That's now UKIP and Clegg won't get the votes back while he's still in
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Government. His only hope is to try to attract
0:22:15 > 0:22:20new supporters who used to think a Liberal Democrat vote was a wasted
0:22:20 > 0:22:25vote. He's not ruling out any future coalition with Labour, but
0:22:25 > 0:22:29it's tricky trying to ride two horses at once. The if the public
0:22:29 > 0:22:33say the only way in which this country can be governed in a
0:22:33 > 0:22:37sensible, centre ground stable way would be a coalition of a different
0:22:37 > 0:22:45combination now but still involving the Liberal Democrats, I would,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49just as last time, do duty to the country.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52It hasn't been stupendous applause and stars and spanningles for UKIP
0:22:53 > 0:22:56this week because they have been under more scrutiny and the
0:22:56 > 0:22:59spotlight revealed some nutty candidates and even more nutty
0:22:59 > 0:23:04policies. Still, Nigel Farage himself is likeable and fupy and
0:23:05 > 0:23:08popular and people reckon there's not much downside to voting UKIP as
0:23:08 > 0:23:10a protest vote today. Probably the same will happen at the euro
0:23:10 > 0:23:17elections, but that doesn't mean a big show at the general election
0:23:17 > 0:23:20because the stakes will be higher there. Still, I bet Nigel Farage
0:23:20 > 0:23:24will be celebrating his performance in a pub tonight. What about the
0:23:24 > 0:23:26other three party leaders? They'll probably be sitting looking sadly
0:23:26 > 0:23:36at the empty beer glasses and asking themselves what's he got
0:23:36 > 0:23:37
0:23:37 > 0:23:43that I haven't?! Joining our little circus here in
0:23:43 > 0:23:53Shepherds Bush, we have the Liberal Democrats' Miranda Green and Nigel
0:23:53 > 0:23:53
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Farage. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:23:57 > 0:24:01So, Nigel, how well have you done think very well. I think we'll
0:24:01 > 0:24:11probably, in the seats we've stood in, get... We know you don't like
0:24:11 > 0:24:12
0:24:12 > 0:24:16to be without a pint. Oh, gosh, thanks! Down in one, down in one...
0:24:16 > 0:24:22Not tonight. He's got a long night ahead of him. I'm not going to show
0:24:22 > 0:24:26off. I think where we've stood Well get 15-20% of the vote, we'll win
0:24:26 > 0:24:30dozens of county council seats. The most significant result tonight for
0:24:30 > 0:24:33UKIP will be one that the Westminster bubble commentators
0:24:33 > 0:24:40don't want to recognise because the narrative is... Talking about us?
0:24:40 > 0:24:47Very much so. Oh, yes. Yes. Bring it on. I'll give you a bubble.
0:24:47 > 0:24:55Where's Molly? The story is that UKIP take Tory votes, that UKIP
0:24:55 > 0:25:01voters are all retired half colonels living on Salisbury plain.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03What's wrong with that?! We have got some! What will happen tonight
0:25:03 > 0:25:07in South Shields is even more significant than the county council
0:25:07 > 0:25:12elections where UKIP, having never stood in the Parliamentary seat
0:25:12 > 0:25:14before, in a seat that's been safe Labour for 100 years, there's never
0:25:14 > 0:25:19been a challenge to Labour there, I'm going to predict now that we'll
0:25:19 > 0:25:23get 25% of the vote, maybe a little more, from a complete standing
0:25:23 > 0:25:27start and most of the voters will be old Labour voters. So the idea
0:25:27 > 0:25:31that UKIP is going to damage the Tories' prospects at the next
0:25:31 > 0:25:39election isn't necessarily right. I think, I don't know whether Michael
0:25:39 > 0:25:43agrees with this, but our effect is more psychological than it is
0:25:43 > 0:25:46arithmetical. What do you think about that? I largely agree. UKIP
0:25:46 > 0:25:49will take votes from Tories, Liberal Democrats and Labour,
0:25:49 > 0:25:53probably more from Conservatives than the other two, but I think
0:25:53 > 0:25:57Nigel is right to to make that point.
0:25:58 > 0:25:59The Tories, yes, it's having a psychological impact. David Cameron
0:25:59 > 0:26:03was elected as Conservative Party leader because he said that the
0:26:03 > 0:26:07party should be moved to the centre ground, that was absolutely firmly
0:26:07 > 0:26:11where he stood and there's no doubt that UKIP's recent performance has
0:26:11 > 0:26:17led him to adjust that strategy and there's been some movement to the
0:26:17 > 0:26:21right. Are you saying he's got a strategy? I mean he's all over the
0:26:21 > 0:26:25place? One week they are closet racists, next week don't talk about
0:26:26 > 0:26:30them, the next week later they are calling the clowns. That's a
0:26:30 > 0:26:32strategy? If there's been movement to the right, it's the wrong
0:26:32 > 0:26:35strategy. I think David Cameron believes in his heart and has said
0:26:35 > 0:26:40until recently that the Conservative Party will only win by
0:26:40 > 0:26:45addressing the centre ground. is Euro-Scepticism right-wing? I
0:26:45 > 0:26:51don't understand this. After all, it was the Labour Party up until
0:26:51 > 0:26:54the mid 80s... It's not the Euro- Scepticism that bothers me at all.
0:26:54 > 0:26:59You are a Euro-sceptic? I am profoundly and I don't think it's
0:26:59 > 0:27:04right-wing, it's more what's been going on around immigration which I
0:27:04 > 0:27:08think... That's European Union now too. Well, some of it is. Bulgaria
0:27:08 > 0:27:12and Romania. We have been saying with a million young unemployed in
0:27:12 > 0:27:16Britain, should we be opening the doors unconditionally to two poor
0:27:16 > 0:27:18countrys with a population of 30 million next year. Is that right-
0:27:19 > 0:27:21wing? I'm a Euro-sceptic but happen to believe that a lot of
0:27:21 > 0:27:25immigration is going to be absolutely fundamentally important
0:27:25 > 0:27:30to this country because I think the population... That's not the point
0:27:30 > 0:27:33is it? It is A point. It's unconditional open door immigration.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36That's why old Labour's voting for us because they are the people who
0:27:36 > 0:27:41can't get jobs and those that have jobs have seen wages driven down
0:27:41 > 0:27:46over the course of the last few years to extraordinary degree.
0:27:46 > 0:27:52Miranda? OK, but it's not an unalloyed good for you that it's
0:27:52 > 0:28:00old Labour that you are attracting and in the same way, it's nostalgic
0:28:00 > 0:28:03Conservatives that you are attracting which is not good.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07Bulgarians and Romanians are the future. This is very interesting
0:28:08 > 0:28:11because obviously what we have got at the moment is an electorate
0:28:11 > 0:28:17that's undecided, as you were discussing on the Daily Politics
0:28:17 > 0:28:20this week, if it was an election today Labour would probably win but
0:28:20 > 0:28:22who knows in 2015. Even if Liberal Democrat numbers are reduced, if
0:28:22 > 0:28:26the electorate does not give the Conservative Party or the Labour
0:28:26 > 0:28:31Party an overall majority, we might still be into a coalition situation.
0:28:31 > 0:28:36That will be the reality. Then we'll be still talking about how to
0:28:36 > 0:28:40make Britain fit for a massive global competition and those
0:28:40 > 0:28:43preoccupations exI'm afraid, that Nigel is identifying in large
0:28:43 > 0:28:46swathes of the electorate are not ones to solve this problem of the
0:28:46 > 0:28:51future. What is happening, Alan? We have a coalition Government in
0:28:51 > 0:28:55which unemployment's rising again, living standards are squeezed, as
0:28:55 > 0:29:05never been, inflation still high, deficits reductions stalled, almost
0:29:05 > 0:29:13
0:29:13 > 0:29:20no growth in the economy at all? Because we are coming up to an
0:29:20 > 0:29:24election and it is not Ed Miliband was my finest hour... We lost an
0:29:24 > 0:29:29election three years ago. Nobody won it, and we lost it. You cannot
0:29:29 > 0:29:33go back to the electorate and say, you got it wrong last time. We have
0:29:33 > 0:29:38to change. It is very difficult to change that around in a five-year
0:29:38 > 0:29:43period. I think Ed Miliband is doing OK on that. I do not treat
0:29:43 > 0:29:48the polls with enormous respect, but I think he is doing very well,
0:29:48 > 0:29:54given that usually when Labour is voted out of power, 1979, we tell
0:29:54 > 0:29:58ourselves to pieces. There is a good deal of unity. Excuse me! A
0:29:58 > 0:30:03good deal of unity? Have you read Tony Blair's article in the New
0:30:03 > 0:30:07Statesman, at the scene of Peter Mandelson has been saying. These
0:30:07 > 0:30:13are not members of parliament. terms of what is happening in the
0:30:13 > 0:30:16Tory party, where there is a real hostility towards Cameron... We
0:30:16 > 0:30:21will see what happens about Europe. I think because he was worried
0:30:21 > 0:30:27about Nigel, he has given a hint when he will carry a bill in this
0:30:27 > 0:30:32Parliament for a referendum that will not happen for five years.
0:30:32 > 0:30:37do not believe him, do we? That is to placate the backbenchers.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41Lib Dems will not let him bring forward a bill for a referendum.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44Quite rightly so. This is terribly dangerous because we have a
0:30:44 > 0:30:48situation in which there is no money so nobody can make promises
0:30:48 > 0:30:52to the electorate about what they will spend on and what their
0:30:52 > 0:30:57spending priorities are. You get a lot of gesture politics and
0:30:57 > 0:31:02posturing. Mythe -- my fear is that this referendum posturing because
0:31:02 > 0:31:08of the Tory party fear of UKIP is going to get the country in a real
0:31:08 > 0:31:11fix. I wanted to pick up on the point in the report. If the
0:31:11 > 0:31:16coalition has decided, which it pretty much has, not to fight the
0:31:16 > 0:31:19next election as a coalition, there will be no defence of what the two
0:31:19 > 0:31:23parties in government have done over the last five years. All of
0:31:23 > 0:31:26this horror we have been through for five years, the absolutely
0:31:26 > 0:31:30magnificent resilience the parties have shown in putting through the
0:31:30 > 0:31:34austerity programme, Earth no one will be there to defend it because
0:31:34 > 0:31:37both parties will be attacking each other. It is self evident that if
0:31:37 > 0:31:42either party wants to be in government next time, they should
0:31:42 > 0:31:47fight as a coalition defending their record. That is not going to
0:31:47 > 0:31:52happen. That way lies disaster. For Allen to say, when the Tories did
0:31:52 > 0:31:56not win the last election and they only had 37%, for him to save five
0:31:56 > 0:32:01years is a short time to turn things around, it is an absolute
0:32:01 > 0:32:10open goal. In electoral history, it is difficult. Once the electorate
0:32:10 > 0:32:13have said something... They certainly did not vote for us.
0:32:13 > 0:32:18Lib Dems and Conservatives are not going to fight the election
0:32:18 > 0:32:22together. Absolutely, but it is really, really important, almost
0:32:22 > 0:32:26the only thing Nick Clegg and his troops can say about the next
0:32:26 > 0:32:30election is, look what we provided in this five-year period, the
0:32:30 > 0:32:35benefits of coalition. Also for the Lib Dems, because they are so in
0:32:35 > 0:32:39favour of electoral reform, they have to defend the coalition. So
0:32:39 > 0:32:46the Lib Dems, even if the Tory party is not, will be defending the
0:32:46 > 0:32:50coalition programme, because that is their mission. Actually, much of
0:32:50 > 0:32:53the electorate are cheesed off with three parties, with three party
0:32:54 > 0:32:57leaders and three frontbenchers who have all been to top schools, top
0:32:57 > 0:33:02universities, gone to research officers, never done a day's work
0:33:02 > 0:33:06in their lives. Where you like UKIP or not, we are connecting with
0:33:06 > 0:33:11ordinary, decent people, and it may be very different in 2015 to
0:33:11 > 0:33:14anything we have seen before. are connecting because Mr Cameron
0:33:14 > 0:33:19followed your advice in rebranding the Tory party and in the process
0:33:19 > 0:33:28created a huge political space for UKIP to occupy. How do you deal
0:33:28 > 0:33:37with that? By not being concerned about it. That will work! It will
0:33:37 > 0:33:43work. And the European elections, that won't matter? Not at all. Who
0:33:43 > 0:33:47gives a stuff about European elections? You just lost them! When
0:33:47 > 0:33:51they take a way votes from Conservatives, who are a couple of
0:33:51 > 0:33:551000 boats ahead of Labour, some Lib Dem votes go to Labour, a lot
0:33:55 > 0:34:00of Tory votes go to him and you lose all of these seats, it won't
0:34:00 > 0:34:05matter? We started by saying UKIP would take votes from all parties
0:34:05 > 0:34:10and I agree with that. I am talking about strategy. I am talking about
0:34:10 > 0:34:12how you get 42% of the vote, which you need to form a majority
0:34:13 > 0:34:18government if you are the Conservative Party. There is no
0:34:18 > 0:34:22doubt, it is by focusing on the centre ground. If UKIP take 3% or
0:34:22 > 0:34:284%, which is all I think they will take, it is nothing compared with
0:34:28 > 0:34:36the 10 to 15% which is at play in the centre ground. The things have
0:34:36 > 0:34:42changed in British politics. Please, have Kenneth Clarke on the front
0:34:42 > 0:34:47bench. He put us up 2% this week. I am advising him to speak at an
0:34:47 > 0:34:51annual conference. He has done us a massive favour. Five or 10 years
0:34:51 > 0:34:57ago there were green politicians sitting there with a smug look on
0:34:57 > 0:35:07their face that you have to Dave. It turns back between now and the
0:35:07 > 0:35:08
0:35:08 > 0:35:12general election. Can I be the peacemaker? No, stir it up.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16Nigel should be pleased because people are taking UKIP seriously to
0:35:16 > 0:35:20the extent that they are examining their policies. This is why I agree
0:35:20 > 0:35:24with Michael. Nigel said being against immigration is not right
0:35:24 > 0:35:29wing, but it is when your policy is to have no immigration for five
0:35:29 > 0:35:35years and then have a ridiculous cap. That is very right wing. Lots
0:35:35 > 0:35:39of right-wingers have argued that over the years. That scrutiny, end
0:35:39 > 0:35:42of the smoking ban, get rid of anything to do with trying to
0:35:42 > 0:35:47tackle climate change, all of that, at a general election, will mean we
0:35:47 > 0:35:50will not have to worry too much. Let's presume that you have done it
0:35:50 > 0:35:54would -- done well in South Shields and done well in the local
0:35:54 > 0:35:56elections, giving new momentum, someone in Downing Street said to
0:35:56 > 0:36:01me that you were going to come first in the European elections
0:36:01 > 0:36:03next year. Do you agree? We have every chance of winning the
0:36:03 > 0:36:06European elections next year because we are the only party
0:36:06 > 0:36:11saying Britain should be a self- governing nation, a friendly with
0:36:11 > 0:36:16Europe but governing our own country. That is supported by a
0:36:16 > 0:36:22majority of the population, so, yes. What is your personal ambition?
0:36:22 > 0:36:27have none. Don't be ridiculous! You're a politician. I do not feel
0:36:27 > 0:36:29I am a politician. I spent 20 years in business. I got in Dalton
0:36:29 > 0:36:33politics because they all think we should be governed from somewhere
0:36:33 > 0:36:37else and I think we should govern ourselves. We are living in a
0:36:37 > 0:36:44modern, global economy and we need to be able to engage with it and we
0:36:44 > 0:36:49cannot do it being run by Brussels. A politician without ambition! I
0:36:49 > 0:36:53might have to go and lie down. Thank you.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55Now, it's easy for us to get sentimental about the past here on
0:36:55 > 0:37:00This Week, for those free-wheelin' days, before everything got so
0:37:00 > 0:37:03serious. Before Molly the dog refused to share a dressing room
0:37:03 > 0:37:05with Alan, Alan refused to share his shirts with Michael, and
0:37:06 > 0:37:14Michael refused to share any information about exactly what he
0:37:14 > 0:37:24gets up to on the 12.09 milk train for Auchenshuggle. What happens in
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Crewe stays in Crewe, eh, Michael! So that's why we've decided to hark
0:37:27 > 0:37:37back to a more innocent time and put nostalgia in this week's
0:37:37 > 0:37:50
0:37:50 > 0:37:54The good old days. Were they? Our very own Cockney street urchin Alan
0:37:54 > 0:37:59Johnson has published a childhood memoir. But don't expect a rose-
0:37:59 > 0:38:05tinted reflection. It is a tale of growing up the hard way in the Bad
0:38:05 > 0:38:12Land slums of post-war London. Gangs, racism, brutal poverty. It
0:38:12 > 0:38:19is a wonder he turned out such a cheeky chappie. So, are we right to
0:38:19 > 0:38:23hark back to the past? Is the rise of UKIP a political pranked for a
0:38:23 > 0:38:29lost world of blazers, ties and gin-and-tonic at the golf club,
0:38:29 > 0:38:35when an honest chap could go to a strip club with his head held high?
0:38:36 > 0:38:39A BBC drama tells a starker tale of rural poverty during the Great War,
0:38:39 > 0:38:44proving Downton Abbey's nostalgic airs and graces are not the only
0:38:44 > 0:38:50foreign country where they do things differently. And, as we
0:38:50 > 0:38:54reached the ripe old age of 10, we hark back to a simpler age, when
0:38:54 > 0:39:04Blue Nun was affordable and Michael's shirts were bearable. Of
0:39:04 > 0:39:14
0:39:14 > 0:39:20course, some things are best left Christine, his nostalgia good or
0:39:20 > 0:39:28bad? Nostalgia is wonderful. When you get to my age you have to save
0:39:28 > 0:39:38it. When you get to our age. Thank you. I will not embarrass you by
0:39:38 > 0:39:39
0:39:39 > 0:39:45saying where we met, but we met in 1969-1970. And you were standing
0:39:45 > 0:39:50against mine now has done for a particular post. Could we go back
0:39:50 > 0:39:55to nostalgia? Although I was going out with my husband, I voted for
0:39:55 > 0:40:00you because I thought he was too right wing. You were right, he was
0:40:00 > 0:40:05too right wing. Tell me, is there a bit of nostalgia used as political
0:40:05 > 0:40:11propaganda. You are a big supporter of UKIP. There is nostalgia for a
0:40:11 > 0:40:15bygone Britain in UKIP, isn't there? Absolutely not. UKIP is the
0:40:15 > 0:40:22future, not the past. It is not about what Britain used to be but
0:40:22 > 0:40:29about what Britain can be again. I could not agree with you less.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33Unlike when you voted for me. Decades ago! Alan, you brought out
0:40:33 > 0:40:39your memoirs. People can sometimes be nostalgic for the 1950s. Any
0:40:39 > 0:40:45time we feel that, we should read your book. Absolutely. Published on
0:40:45 > 0:40:50May 9th, incidentally, and in all good bookshops. Part of what I was
0:40:50 > 0:40:54trying to portray was this idea that the 1950s was an age of
0:40:54 > 0:40:58peaceful innocence and nothing could be further from the truth.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02Very brutal days, very brutal in terms of the West Indian community
0:41:02 > 0:41:07that came into Notting Hill, the race riots. I was brought up in
0:41:07 > 0:41:13Notting Hill, and it was not a salubrious place to be. We did not
0:41:13 > 0:41:17see anything of Hugh Grant. So it is not nostalgia. It is a potent
0:41:17 > 0:41:22political force, and I think, despite Christine's charming
0:41:23 > 0:41:27denials, I think UKIP, the age when you can go back to the time of
0:41:27 > 0:41:34smoking in pubs, back to the time when we did not have large levels
0:41:34 > 0:41:38of immigration, it is a policy based to a great extent on harking
0:41:38 > 0:41:47for a past that might never have been. Your train journeys are quite
0:41:47 > 0:41:52nostalgic, aren't they? Absolutely. And also never-ending. We hope not.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56I make my living partly out of nostalgia. People do love to hark
0:41:56 > 0:42:00back. This country has an enormous number of heritage lines, vastly
0:42:00 > 0:42:04more than any other country, and people spend their weekends
0:42:04 > 0:42:09reviving locomotives and going out and taking journeys on steam trains.
0:42:09 > 0:42:14They love it. It is undoubtedly true that as we get older,
0:42:14 > 0:42:18inevitably you get more nostalgic. Of course, because there is far
0:42:18 > 0:42:23less ahead of you. Nostalgia is the bigger part of your life than the
0:42:23 > 0:42:27future at our age. I would not want to live now without things like the
0:42:27 > 0:42:31mobile phone and the internet, but I am honestly very glad that my
0:42:31 > 0:42:35childhood was without all of that stuff. Kids nowadays, they can look
0:42:35 > 0:42:39back and there is an entire record, every second of their life, on the
0:42:39 > 0:42:46mobile phone... If we want to look at pictures of our childhood, we
0:42:46 > 0:42:50have to go through yellowing pictures. I cherish them. Even
0:42:50 > 0:42:56though you had a tough upbringing, as you were writing the book and it
0:42:56 > 0:43:00brought back memories, I bet there was a tinge of nostalgia. Of course.
0:43:00 > 0:43:05Nostalgia in the sense of remembering events and wanting to...
0:43:05 > 0:43:09I lived close to Crystal Palace. I would love to go back to the 1920s
0:43:09 > 0:43:15and see the Crystal Palace before it burned down. That kind of
0:43:15 > 0:43:19nostalgia is natural. You did not burn it down? It was not me. It is
0:43:19 > 0:43:26the only thing that keeps you sane, the fact that you think you lived
0:43:26 > 0:43:29in the best time. Otherwise your life is wrecked. Christine Hamilton.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33That's your lot for tonight folks. But not for us, because we're
0:43:33 > 0:43:36ditching our audience, before they storm the stage for autographs from
0:43:36 > 0:43:46Alan and kisses from Michael, and heading straight on over to the
0:43:46 > 0:43:48
0:43:48 > 0:43:51aftershow at Annabel's. And we need to get a move on. The clock on
0:43:51 > 0:43:56Charles Clarke's mini cab is ticking over already, and you know
0:43:56 > 0:43:59how grumpy he gets if you keep him waiting. So we leave you tonight
0:43:59 > 0:44:09with music and pictures to delight. Nighty-night. Don't let Lucinda
0:44:09 > 0:44:18
0:44:18 > 0:44:28# Saved me, save me # Why are you moaning all the time?
0:44:28 > 0:44:28
0:44:28 > 0:44:36# Because I'm not the one to pick up the pieces in your life
0:44:36 > 0:44:42# Easy, take it easy # I'm not the cause of your