:00:17. > :00:19.drummers' political beat. No noisy interruptions for the real Queen as
:00:19. > :00:22.she opens another Parliamentary session. But former Chancellor Nigel
:00:22. > :00:32.Lawson is banging the drum to get out of the EU.
:00:32. > :00:32.
:00:32. > :00:36.Journalist Quentin Letts swaps his drumstick for a cricket bat. Nigel
:00:36. > :00:40.Lawson was banging his drama about Europe.
:00:40. > :00:42.Sir Alex Ferguson can expect a noisy reception for his final game at Old
:00:42. > :00:45.Trafford this weekend, but can our political leaders learn anything
:00:45. > :00:52.from this managerial genius? Broadcaster and Man United fanatic
:00:52. > :00:57.Eamon Holmes thinks they can. been one of our greatest leaders of
:00:57. > :01:02.all time, ruling for an amazing 26 years. I bet Fergie could teach that
:01:02. > :01:05.lot a thing or two. And crashing the cymbals in delight
:01:05. > :01:08.as three women escape from years of captivity in Cleveland, Ohio. But
:01:08. > :01:17.why are we so fascinated by whatever happens across the pond? American
:01:17. > :01:23.comedian Eddie Pepitone tell's us to wise up. Hey, guys, thanks for
:01:23. > :01:26.playing. We exist for your entertainment.
:01:26. > :01:36.The irony is, I love drummers and I love drumming. But please can you
:01:36. > :01:38.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, the intriguing bruise on the
:01:38. > :01:45.forehead of BBC current affairs which no amount of make-up can
:01:45. > :01:48.disguise. And you join us tonight in a state of panic, still reeling from
:01:48. > :01:50.the week's political events, when an uprising in golf clubs across the
:01:50. > :01:59.Tory shires triggered a putsch by the United Kingdom Independence
:01:59. > :02:02.Party. Now an attempted Westminster Palace coup is now upon us. And
:02:02. > :02:05.we're already hearing reports that UKIP foot soldiers, loyal to retired
:02:05. > :02:08.wing-commander Nigel "mine's a pint of Spitfire, pork scratchings and a
:02:08. > :02:12.packet of Woodbine" Farage, are now in control of Heathrow, Gatwick,
:02:12. > :02:22.Heart FM, nearly every London taxi, the Dog & Duck, Babestation, and
:02:22. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:27.most crucially, the white cliffs of Dover. A curfew has been imposed and
:02:27. > :02:30.the smoking ban lifted. As we speak, members of the Conservative
:02:30. > :02:32.establishment are said to be in full retreat, with Lords Lawson and
:02:32. > :02:34.Lamont already defecting to the insurgents, by declaring they're
:02:34. > :02:43.willing to collaborate with any regime intent on leaving the
:02:43. > :02:46.European Union. And if you fear for our safety, be assured, we've
:02:46. > :02:49.barricaded ourselves inside the This Week studio, with an enormous stack
:02:49. > :02:51.of empty crates of Blue Nun we've somehow managed to collect over the
:02:51. > :02:55.years, and are praying Michael Portillo's article in the Times
:02:55. > :03:05.today, admitting that nice Mr Farage was right about the EU all along,
:03:05. > :03:05.
:03:05. > :03:12.has done just enough to save us from being lined up against the wall. All
:03:12. > :03:15.power to the Farage, we say. And to quisling Portillo. Speaking of
:03:15. > :03:18.personality cults that have got out of control, I'm joined on the sofa
:03:18. > :03:22.tonight by two men who tag along behind me whenever I've got anything
:03:22. > :03:26.important to say. Think of them as the Prince Charles and Camilla
:03:26. > :03:28.Parker-Bowles of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:28. > :03:38.of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain, Michael "choo
:03:38. > :03:45.
:03:45. > :03:48.choo" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? The announcement that
:03:48. > :03:52.the Queen is not going to the Commonwealth heads of government
:03:52. > :03:55.meeting, which is a very long flight. I did not find this very
:03:55. > :04:02.remarkable. The remarkable thing is the fitness of the Queen and the
:04:02. > :04:05.Duke of Edinburgh. So why is it your moment of the week? Because I want
:04:05. > :04:11.to say how amazing it is that they continue in such good health and
:04:11. > :04:14.doing such a fine job. At the funeral of Margaret Thatcher, I was
:04:14. > :04:19.struck by the fact that the Duke of Edinburgh walks absolutely correct,
:04:19. > :04:24.not like an old man. I have seen him walking without holding on to
:04:24. > :04:29.anything. Although I dare say the Prince of Wales and the Duchess will
:04:29. > :04:33.do more things, we will be surprised that even as the Queen advances in
:04:33. > :04:38.age, her duty will require her to do as much as she possibly can, and I
:04:38. > :04:41.think it will be a surprisingly amount. I think it is remarkable she
:04:41. > :04:44.is not going to the Commonwealth conference, because she loves the
:04:44. > :04:50.Commonwealth and this is the first she will not be going to. Alan, your
:04:50. > :04:56.moment rest of it was when I opened the times and saw that my good
:04:56. > :05:06.friend here has become a fan of Nigel Farage. You could have blown
:05:06. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:11.me over with a puff of smoke. It may well be more important than Nigel
:05:11. > :05:15.Lawson's intervention, a much younger and more recent conservative
:05:15. > :05:18.figure. It will certainly give comfort to Nigel. Last week's show
:05:18. > :05:25.must have been enormously influential, because he appeared and
:05:25. > :05:30.a week later Michael is joining UKIP. We are going to come back to
:05:30. > :05:33.that. That is good!It is, believe Now, after years of mid-table
:05:33. > :05:36.mediocrity and dismal 0-0 draws we were obviously concerned when Diane
:05:36. > :05:39.Abbott announced her retirement from politics and left This Week to spend
:05:39. > :05:42.more time with her constituents, once she worked out how to get to
:05:42. > :05:45.her constituency. Who could possibly fill the knee-high boots of the
:05:45. > :05:48.Hackney left-winger? Fortunately for us, we signed up Alan, a seasoned
:05:48. > :05:51.pro. But with Alex Ferguson announcing his retirement this week,
:05:51. > :05:59.is there anything politicians can learn from the most successful
:05:59. > :06:09.manager in history? We turned to broadcaster and Fergie fanatic
:06:09. > :06:19.
:06:19. > :06:23.Eamonn Holmes for his Take Of The Yesterday, the greatest football
:06:23. > :06:33.manager of all time, the man who was in charge of my team for half my
:06:33. > :06:36.
:06:36. > :06:40.life, stepped down. But, on the +, I have to be thankful he was in the
:06:40. > :06:45.job for a mighty 26 years. He did not have to face the electorate
:06:45. > :06:49.every five years, but think about this, no British Prime Minister has
:06:49. > :06:56.managed that record, and football is probably even tougher than politics
:06:56. > :07:06.to survive and succeed in. So what made him such a great leader, and
:07:06. > :07:13.
:07:13. > :07:17.what might they in their learn from you think there are big egos and
:07:17. > :07:20.strong characters around the Cabinet table, just look inside a Premier
:07:20. > :07:24.League dressing room. The genius of Sir Alex is to make everyone
:07:24. > :07:31.understand that glory and the riches for them flow from being part of a
:07:31. > :07:37.winning team, and the team must always come first. For such an
:07:37. > :07:41.emotional man, sentiment often did not play a part. When the results on
:07:41. > :07:44.the pitch start to suffer, he has always been prepared to drop someone
:07:44. > :07:51.to the bench, or of the team. Keeping people for sentimental
:07:51. > :08:01.reasons will always come back to bite you. He knew how to move with
:08:01. > :08:03.
:08:03. > :08:06.the times. In many ways, you have to say he is pretty prehistoric. That
:08:06. > :08:12.he transcended different generations, embracing the modern.
:08:12. > :08:20.In fact, he textured me twice yesterday. Oh, that is him now. He
:08:20. > :08:25.was a master strategist. And he learned from his defeats, bringing
:08:25. > :08:33.his teams back tougher, stronger. He is fascinated by military history.
:08:33. > :08:38.He understands the strategy for fighting. Where Fergie is really
:08:38. > :08:43.wise is that he does not just give out advice. He knew how to take it,
:08:43. > :08:49.too. And my guess is that he was wise enough to take counsel on his
:08:49. > :08:58.final decision, the toughest of his career, to step away from the
:08:58. > :09:08.touchline of the beautiful game, without being given the red card. I
:09:08. > :09:08.
:09:08. > :09:13.will take my ball and go home now. I would like to point out that that
:09:13. > :09:19.playing surface was not what I would be used to. I have not even
:09:19. > :09:25.introduced you. People might say, he could not kick the ball, and they
:09:25. > :09:28.would be right. That is why you did not bring it with you. Welcome.
:09:28. > :09:33.Surely there are no real similarities between running a
:09:33. > :09:37.football team in controlling a cabinet or political party.
:09:37. > :09:41.course there are. Michael will profess not to be a football fan,
:09:41. > :09:45.but he and Fergie had a lot in common. Like you, he had the odd
:09:45. > :09:54.problem in Europe. The analogies are there. You have been to Old
:09:54. > :09:59.Trafford. I sat in his chair and ran down the tunnel. They are not
:09:59. > :10:05.letting trains into Old Trafford, are they? There is a whole other
:10:05. > :10:11.story there. He comes across for many people, the public figure, as a
:10:11. > :10:18.bit of a dictator, a control freak. A benign dictatorship. In a
:10:18. > :10:25.democracy, that does not work. are right, it does not stack up.
:10:25. > :10:31.cannot throw a hairdryer at a Cabinet member. You cannot refuse to
:10:31. > :10:35.speak to the BBC for years. He knew his audience. In terms of the crowd
:10:35. > :10:39.at Old Trafford, it was interesting. When we were knocked out of the
:10:39. > :10:44.champions league a couple of months ago with a controversial decision
:10:44. > :10:49.where a player was sent off, Fergie got up. It was -- there was such
:10:49. > :10:53.euphoria and it was like a punctured balloon. Ferdie got up and he got
:10:53. > :10:59.everybody to boo the referee. He went like this, and he had that
:10:59. > :11:06.control. You cannot get the Prime Minister to get his cabinet and
:11:06. > :11:12.people to boo the Chief Justice and the Supreme Court. You are right.So
:11:12. > :11:17.the film was completely wrong? are right. The thing about Alex
:11:17. > :11:23.Ferguson was that ultimately he was the ultimate pragmatist. He knew how
:11:23. > :11:28.to take advice. So David Cameron has learned from him. Fergie would be a
:11:28. > :11:32.firebrand politician and we do not get many of those nowadays.
:11:32. > :11:35.thought the film was completely right. Metaphorically, by ministers
:11:35. > :11:40.can throw hairdryers at their Cabinet, and those who do were
:11:40. > :11:45.successful for a while. Margaret Thatcher had her handbag, a strategy
:11:46. > :11:48.that worked for 11 years. I worked closely with two Prime Minister 's.
:11:48. > :11:53.Margaret Thatcher frightened me and I work hard every time I turned up
:11:53. > :11:56.to a meeting, extremely well briefed and I was on my toes. John Major did
:11:56. > :12:02.not and I turned up caring less about what I did. Motivation is
:12:02. > :12:04.crucial. However, even Margaret Thatcher, and this is an
:12:04. > :12:09.extraordinary fault in prime ministers, even Margaret Thatcher,
:12:09. > :12:14.when appointed her ministers, never told them what she expected of them.
:12:14. > :12:18.There is a simple lesson. Why does a prime minister not say, I expect
:12:18. > :12:25.you, within the next year or two, to have delivered this and this. I am
:12:25. > :12:32.sure Ferdie told the players exact what was expected. -- Ferdie.
:12:32. > :12:36.also told them they were the best, and they responded to that. He also
:12:36. > :12:40.told them he wanted the best out of them and would not settle for second
:12:40. > :12:48.best, which are a lot of little leaders, for various reasons, do, in
:12:48. > :12:52.their Cabinet or their teams. want to give a balanced cabinet,
:12:52. > :12:56.whether different factions, genders, et cetera. I think there is an
:12:56. > :13:00.incredible statistic about Ferguson, which shows he knew how to
:13:00. > :13:05.keep an advantage. 39 years in management, 1500 games for
:13:05. > :13:15.Manchester United, and his teams never lost 12 to zero lead, in that
:13:15. > :13:17.
:13:17. > :13:20.time. -- they never lost a two nil lead. Often in politics, succession
:13:20. > :13:28.is very clunky. This succession has been beautifully timed, nurtured and
:13:28. > :13:32.cultivated. I think the thing is that however much we, as United
:13:32. > :13:35.fans, are in mourning, and however Sir Alex may not have wanted to let
:13:35. > :13:42.go of the rains, we all realise that David Moyes is available this week,
:13:42. > :13:46.this month, and now is probably the time to go, however painful.
:13:46. > :13:51.other thing that came out of your film, and reading about it, is that
:13:51. > :13:58.it did not matter how big a star you were for Alex Ferguson, but the team
:13:58. > :14:02.was always bigger. Again, I can think of Margaret Thatcher. She got
:14:02. > :14:07.rid of Jeffrey Howell. She let Nigel Lawson go. Ultimately, these losses
:14:07. > :14:13.were fatal to her, but it took a long time. Nigel Lawson left the
:14:13. > :14:16.Cabinet in 1988, and she did not go for another two years. She
:14:17. > :14:21.absolutely took the view that the superstars had to go. The contrast
:14:21. > :14:30.is, Tony Blair would never let Gordon Brown go, and I think he
:14:30. > :14:33.would have been long as Prime Minister if he had. The more I study
:14:33. > :14:36.Sir Alex Ferguson, the more I think he has in common with Margaret
:14:36. > :14:41.Thatcher as the Conservative socialist, mainly from his point of
:14:41. > :14:46.view, than anyone else, because he had his favourites as well, as she
:14:46. > :14:49.had and he'd put his arms around them, the Cantonas, for example.
:14:49. > :14:54.believed in globalisation. conflict resolution, which was to
:14:54. > :14:58.win, win, win, beat everybody in sight. That's how he resolved
:14:58. > :15:06.conflict. Does the political world ever look at leadership elsewhere,
:15:06. > :15:12.as indeed the world's most successful football manager? If they
:15:12. > :15:16.do, they don't push it on to anyone else -- pass it on to anyone else.
:15:16. > :15:22.When I became an MP, there was no training, there was no direction, as
:15:22. > :15:26.Michael said, as to where you should go. I think if we are looking at
:15:26. > :15:31.that leadership, we are not passing the leadership skills on. Do you
:15:31. > :15:37.agree? Politics is amateurish. There is no training for it, no
:15:37. > :15:40.objectives, no targets. There's no attempt to create a team spirit. On
:15:40. > :15:44.the whole, people don't even get media training. Do you know what, my
:15:44. > :15:47.friend, football was like that as well. One of the great things about
:15:47. > :15:51.Sir Alex Ferguson is, he crossed various generations. A lot of people
:15:51. > :15:56.would say, he's a dinosaur, belongs to a different age. His real skill
:15:56. > :16:00.was to adapt to each age, build new teams, time after time. He survived
:16:00. > :16:03.through a huge transformation of the game and was as happy after the
:16:03. > :16:07.transformation as he had been before? Absolutely and he was a
:16:07. > :16:10.great believe in new technology. He's fundamentally behind this
:16:10. > :16:15.incredible training centre that Manchester United have at Carrington
:16:15. > :16:19.and all the latest medical advances, he'd bring those forward into the
:16:19. > :16:23.game, like Arsene Wenger would be now and the Mourinhos and all those
:16:23. > :16:29.would be like that now. Better than any politician, he's managed his
:16:29. > :16:33.stepping down? I think so.Without being thrown out, without going or
:16:33. > :16:38.being forced to leave, without losing? That's very difficult to do
:16:38. > :16:42.because obviously ego plays a part in it and, for him again, it very
:16:42. > :16:45.definitely is the politics of conviction. He was absolutely
:16:45. > :16:52.convinced always that his way was the right way and he was able to
:16:52. > :16:58.bring people along with him with that again a Thatcher way. Going by
:16:58. > :17:04.the records, his way usually was right. A big question before you go.
:17:04. > :17:09.I have got to get up in three hours so can you just... Which ego is more
:17:09. > :17:13.difficult to handle if you were Sir Alex Ferguson or yourself - is it
:17:13. > :17:20.Cristiano Ronaldo or Michael Portillo? Oh, Portillo.I would
:17:20. > :17:26.agree. A prima donna, yes. Totally agree, I mean, Ronaldo, pfff...
:17:26. > :17:33.get rid of him. This is not antiforeign... He could command a
:17:33. > :17:39.lot of money on the transfer market. Let's get rid of him. Babe station
:17:39. > :17:44.would be in for him! Six Cornflake packet tops didn't hack it. Good to
:17:44. > :17:54.see you. Thank you very much.It may be late here in the UK, but spare a
:17:54. > :17:55.
:17:55. > :17:59.fought for the stateside viewers. Cracking open the Blue Nun. Stand up
:17:59. > :18:04.comedian Eddy Peppertone is here to explain the endless fascination with
:18:04. > :18:12.all things all American. For those who prefer something all
:18:12. > :18:16.together less fascinating, fill your boots:
:18:16. > :18:21.We like to mix things up a little here, so we thought this would be
:18:21. > :18:25.just the week to give you a cricket themed film. After all, it's not on
:18:25. > :18:30.the front-pages or the back pages, there have been no scandals, no
:18:30. > :18:33.resignations or significant losses to speak of. Imran Khan is in bed
:18:33. > :18:39.but he doesn't play cricket any more! Obviously, there was no better
:18:39. > :18:47.time to send Quentin Letts off to his spiritual home to give us his
:18:47. > :18:51.round-up of the political week. Big story of the week wasn't in
:18:52. > :18:57.politics, it was in the world of sport. Football. Something called
:18:57. > :19:02.association football. Rotten old game! Cricket, that's the one for
:19:02. > :19:12.It's the start of the cricket season and it's the start of the
:19:12. > :19:37.
:19:37. > :19:41.David Cameron's been facing all sorts of tricky deliveries this
:19:41. > :19:51.week. For some reason, all the bowlers seem to have been called
:19:51. > :19:55.
:19:55. > :19:59.Nigel. The PM's certainly needed a '80s test star Nigel Lawson sent out
:20:00. > :20:03.a right little fizzer. He suggested that Britain come out of the EU all
:20:03. > :20:07.together. The reason this was such a tricky
:20:07. > :20:11.ball is that Lord Lawson's the first senior Tory to advocate pulling
:20:11. > :20:15.stumps on Brussels all together, and he's a former Chancellor, so his
:20:16. > :20:24.economic analysis bears some scrutiny. He knows his sums.
:20:24. > :20:28.The attempt to overregulate and cut down to size the financial services
:20:28. > :20:35.sector is extremely damaging to one of our biggest industries. So the
:20:35. > :20:39.economic minus is a very big one. Good shot, Sir, said another
:20:39. > :20:44.troublesome Nigel! The world feels a less lonely place for me today. I
:20:44. > :20:48.think that somebody of his magnitude saying look, this thing is gone, the
:20:49. > :20:51.economic argument is we'd be better off out of it, and anyway David
:20:51. > :20:56.Cameron's renegotiation is bound to fail is a huge boost to the
:20:56. > :20:58.Euro-sceptic cause of the UK. leaves Captain Cameron with
:20:58. > :21:03.difficulties about his field placings. Do they all need to move
:21:03. > :21:07.around to the right a bit more? Even if they do that, will the bar mist
:21:07. > :21:15.army pay any attention, or is just the wider electorate asleep in the
:21:15. > :21:21.stands? Farage wasn't snoozing. He's had a
:21:21. > :21:24.tidy little spell. How's that? ! We has precipitated a batting collapse
:21:24. > :21:27.from almost the entire British establishment. Time for David
:21:28. > :21:32.Cameron to call in the senior professional. My Government will
:21:32. > :21:38.bring forward a Bill that further reforms Britain's immigration
:21:38. > :21:43.system. The Bill will ensure that this country attracts people who
:21:43. > :21:48.will contribute and deters those who will not.
:21:48. > :21:51.A point Cameron was keen to drive home. For the first time, we'll look
:21:51. > :21:55.to ensure everyone's immigration status is checked before getting
:21:55. > :21:59.access to a private rented home, for the first time we are going to
:21:59. > :22:02.ensure anyone not eligible for free health care foots the bill for the
:22:02. > :22:06.health care through themselves or their Government, and for the first
:22:06. > :22:09.time, foreign nationals who commit serious crimes will, whenever
:22:09. > :22:15.possible be deported first and appeal second from their home
:22:15. > :22:19.country. David Cameron's tactics could work.
:22:19. > :22:23.The immigration stuff may prove popular and by dropping cigarette
:22:23. > :22:27.packaging rules and alcohol minimum pricing, he's going to please some
:22:27. > :22:31.of his own supporters. The opposition predictably gave it all
:22:31. > :22:38.the slow hand clap. The lesson for the Prime Minister
:22:38. > :22:46.is, you can't out-Farage Farage. Three wasted years, three wasted
:22:46. > :22:49.years. Today another wasted chance and no answers speech. Out of touch,
:22:49. > :22:53.out of ideas, standing up for the wrong people and unable to bring the
:22:53. > :22:57.change the country needs. David Cameron did well yesterday,
:22:57. > :23:02.certainly catching everything that came his way.
:23:02. > :23:06.Ooh, just like me! This is a Queen's Speech that will back aspiration and
:23:06. > :23:08.those who want to get on. This is a Queen's Speech that will make our
:23:09. > :23:12.country competitive once again. Thises a Queen's Speech that will
:23:12. > :23:15.cut our deficit, grow our economy, deliver a better future four our
:23:15. > :23:17.children and help us to win the global race and I commend it to the
:23:17. > :23:23.House. Danger has not passed. David
:23:23. > :23:26.Cameron's going to need one of these. A cricketer's box. The reason
:23:26. > :23:30.- Nadine Dorries is back. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, the
:23:30. > :23:34.star of I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here! Has been readmitted to the
:23:34. > :23:42.Conservative Parliamentary party and, when Nadine is around, you need
:23:42. > :23:46.protection! Right! I'm ready for her.
:23:46. > :23:49.Meanwhile, one of the deputy speakers of the House of Commons,
:23:49. > :23:54.Nigel Evans, the third Nigel, was arrested on suspicion of rape and
:23:54. > :23:58.sexual assault. Funny old game, cricket, funny old game politics.
:23:58. > :24:02.The complaints are completely false and I cannot understand why they
:24:02. > :24:07.have been made, especially as I have continued to socialise with one as
:24:07. > :24:11.recently as last week. I appreciate the way the police have
:24:11. > :24:15.handled this in such a sensitive manner, and I would like to thank my
:24:15. > :24:22.colleagues, friends and members of the public who 've expressed their
:24:22. > :24:27.support and like me a sense of incee dullty at these events. Sticky
:24:27. > :24:32.wickets being hit for six and tonked out of the ground, it all happens at
:24:32. > :24:36.Westminster as the main leaders know all too well after the last few days
:24:37. > :24:45.-- incredulity. You coming then? Time for the 19th
:24:45. > :24:49.hole... Silly fool, he's got the wrong game!
:24:49. > :24:53.Two Quentin let for the price of one. Miranda is back, thank you for
:24:54. > :24:59.joining us again. Good evening. Michael Portillo, after writing in
:25:00. > :25:07.the Times that you thought we should leave the EU, when did you come to
:25:07. > :25:12.that view? A while ago.You 've never said they should leave the
:25:12. > :25:16.European Union? Since David Cameron said there would be a referendum I
:25:16. > :25:21.said I would vote out. Do you remember that? I remember Michael
:25:22. > :25:27.being critical of the tactics. That's a different matter. But I
:25:27. > :25:33.must say, I'm surprised that you are surprised. If the Prime Minister
:25:33. > :25:37.gives you an opportunity... surprised that you're surprised that
:25:37. > :25:42.he's surprised... Why shouldn't people express their view as to how
:25:42. > :25:46.they'd vote in the referendum in the event of this occurring? When we had
:25:46. > :25:53.Nigel Farage on the programme last week, you said Tories should do
:25:53. > :25:58.nothing in response. This is not a response to UKIP. The timing's
:25:58. > :26:01.purely fortuitous? What I said to Nigel Farage last week, was that I
:26:01. > :26:06.agreed that it was not right-wing to be Euro-sceptic and secondly, you
:26:06. > :26:11.told him I was a Euro-sceptic. What does all this mean if it doesn't
:26:11. > :26:18.mean we want to leave the European Union? It means in David Cameron's
:26:18. > :26:22.eyes is, you go and get a better deal, as he'd see it. But he'll not
:26:22. > :26:25.get a better deal. I know that you think that, but not every
:26:25. > :26:29.Euro-sceptic wants to leave the Europe. No, and that in a way is the
:26:29. > :26:33.disgrace of the whole thing. The people offering the referendum are
:26:33. > :26:38.saying, we want to whinge and complain about the European Union,
:26:38. > :26:42.but we'll recommend you all stay in because we are not brave enough to
:26:42. > :26:45.leave the European Union. The things they aidify as being wrong with our
:26:45. > :26:48.relationship with the European Union are fundamental and they'll not be
:26:48. > :26:51.solved by a little renegotiation. If the Prime Minister is serious about
:26:51. > :26:56.offering us a referendum, and he's only partly serious because the
:26:56. > :27:02.chances of his being in office are not very high, but if he's serious,
:27:02. > :27:06.he must expect people to express their view about what we should do,
:27:06. > :27:10.stay or leave. But the negotiation, he has to win the next election,
:27:10. > :27:15.whatever the outcome though, he'll say stay, in he'll say you have to
:27:15. > :27:19.vote yes? Sure he will.Because you think in the end his heart is that
:27:19. > :27:23.Britain's future belongs in Europe? No, no, no, his heart is not in that
:27:23. > :27:26.at all. No, no. So why is he saying it? He and the Chancellor of the
:27:26. > :27:31.Exchequer and the others know, as well as I do that the relationship
:27:31. > :27:34.between the UK and Europe is fundamentally flaw and disastrous,
:27:34. > :27:36.but the Government doesn't have the courage to say the solution is to
:27:36. > :27:40.leave the European Union. There's no way you can say the Prime Minister's
:27:40. > :27:45.heart is in it. I wouldn't accuse him of that! Shouldn't you have led
:27:45. > :27:50.the way on this, rather than jumping on the bandwagon after Mr Lamont and
:27:50. > :27:53.Lawson and UKIP doing well last week? Well, I have been saying to
:27:53. > :27:59.anyone who's asked me since the Prime Minister announced there would
:27:59. > :28:04.be a referendum that I would vote out. To me...Let me just continue.
:28:04. > :28:09.One thing that astonished me was that the entourage, who're close to
:28:09. > :28:14.the Government, looked at me in incredulity" You would vote to
:28:14. > :28:19.leave". They are as surprised as we are? Why is it extraordinary to
:28:19. > :28:23.think this relationship... Do you think he's jumping on a bandwagon?
:28:23. > :28:28.No, there was a lot of passion in his argument and his real argument
:28:28. > :28:33.is about the way the Single Currency is going and the view that it was an
:28:33. > :28:36.outrageous act of arrogance to force countries like Greece, Spain and
:28:36. > :28:43.others into the Single Currency. Michael appears to be following the
:28:43. > :28:46.UKIP line on the basis of now is the time to leave the European Union and
:28:46. > :28:50.I think he's been unfair to the Prime Minister because if you are
:28:50. > :28:53.the Prime Minister of this country and you have this obsession on his
:28:53. > :28:57.benches with Europe and this keeps coming up over and again, you have
:28:57. > :29:03.to try and diffuse it some way. I think there was a lot of cynicism in
:29:03. > :29:08.going back to Brussels and trying to get that. Like Michael, I don't
:29:08. > :29:13.think anything will come from that. I sympathise with the Prime Minister
:29:13. > :29:23.given that on their benches, they are still obsessing about Europe.
:29:23. > :29:29.Given that, Miranda, how would you therefore say what the implications
:29:29. > :29:39.are. This enormously Euro-sceptic party is in coalition with the most
:29:39. > :29:45.
:29:45. > :29:49.party for David Cameron to handle in terms of party management. Everybody
:29:49. > :29:54.knows that the Lib Dems unashamedly pro-European. Actually, this is
:29:54. > :29:59.quite interesting, because you are starting to get a discussion of the
:29:59. > :30:02.merits of the case. I profoundly hope that, you have had a rash of
:30:02. > :30:07.people coming out in The Times this week, which has doing a let's get
:30:07. > :30:11.out series, there is now an opportunity for the people who have
:30:11. > :30:16.been a bit hopeless in arguing the pro-case, to explain why it is a
:30:16. > :30:20.false spectre. This idea that we cannot build trading ties with the
:30:20. > :30:25.rising economies of Asia, for example, whilst we are in the EU, is
:30:25. > :30:30.completely bonkers. We do not need to leave the EU to trade with the
:30:30. > :30:33.rest of the world. Michael's point was that Europe is lumbered with the
:30:33. > :30:38.euro and the Eurozone and all it covers, and this will not be
:30:38. > :30:43.resolved quickly, and for the next ten years the Euro elite will obsess
:30:43. > :30:50.about the euro and how to save the Eurozone - correct me if I am not
:30:50. > :30:57.summarising you properly. And that there is no future in that. The
:30:57. > :31:00.world is moving on and passing us by. Countries who operate on the
:31:00. > :31:05.European continent but are not heart of the use still have to operate
:31:05. > :31:08.under the trading law. So even if you feel passionately that the use
:31:09. > :31:13.should go back to something that is more akin to an economic and trading
:31:13. > :31:16.relationship, rather than something broader, it is madness for the UK to
:31:16. > :31:20.be outside of the European Union, because we have to operate under
:31:20. > :31:26.those trading rules, so we want to be in there making sure the British
:31:26. > :31:33.perspective is represented. We have important allies. Europe is not some
:31:33. > :31:36.Franco-German machine. But its obsession is with the Euro. The
:31:36. > :31:40.Eurozone and trying to get that right dominates everything else, and
:31:40. > :31:46.the price the European elite is prepared to make ordinary people pay
:31:46. > :31:52.to keep the Eurozone intact is a price he does not want to pay, and
:31:52. > :31:58.increasingly European people may not want to pay. 57% youth unemployment
:31:58. > :32:05.in Spain, for a start. Absolutely. There was a problem with democratic
:32:05. > :32:09.consent across the European Union. You mean there is not any. There is
:32:09. > :32:13.a huge democratic deficit. You have UKIP here and similar sorts of
:32:13. > :32:17.movements in other European countries, which are trying to say,
:32:17. > :32:21.we want our democratic rights asserted. But to say the UK at this
:32:21. > :32:25.moment in history should get out across this is a particular problem
:32:25. > :32:31.in the Eurozone is madness. I hope we get the proper debate about in or
:32:31. > :32:36.out. Let Michael reply and we can start the debate. Part of it is
:32:36. > :32:39.economic, that the European Union is led by a lot of ideologues, who want
:32:39. > :32:45.the European Union more than anything else and expect other
:32:45. > :32:49.people to pay any price for it. And the price is very, very high. It is
:32:49. > :32:51.also that they are going to be so obsessed with the Euro for so long
:32:51. > :32:56.that they are unaware that they need to compete with the rest of the
:32:56. > :33:00.world, so Europe is becoming less competitive. One of the responses of
:33:00. > :33:02.the European Union is to say because European citizens are suffering, we
:33:02. > :33:09.have two increase the welfare state, making ourselves less
:33:09. > :33:13.competitive. At another level, it is different. I believe we are, the
:33:13. > :33:19.British people, suited to being in the European Union. It is like
:33:19. > :33:22.saying, why isn't a fish a stag. It simply is not. We are not
:33:22. > :33:26.temperamentally suited to the European Union. It has worried me,
:33:26. > :33:29.and this is why I thought I would write an article rather than telling
:33:29. > :33:32.other people how I would vote, is that the weakness demonstrated why
:33:32. > :33:37.the government in saying, we will have a referendum but we recommend
:33:37. > :33:40.that we stay in, that weakness means the political establishment in this
:33:40. > :33:45.country will never be strong enough to leave, meaning it will always be
:33:45. > :33:49.weak enough to go into the full European Union. And if we do not
:33:49. > :33:52.leave now, we will eventually be sucked into the whole thing, the
:33:52. > :33:59.euro, the Eurozone and all the catastrophe that is occurring on the
:33:59. > :34:02.continent. Allen, if Michael is right and you are right that any
:34:02. > :34:07.attempt at renegotiation will produce pennies, like Wilson in
:34:07. > :34:13.1975, if you are right there was to be a vote between the choice of the
:34:13. > :34:20.British people bash the status quo of Europe, and getting out, this
:34:20. > :34:26.country would probably vote to get out. I don't know.That is why you
:34:26. > :34:33.will not give them the vote. We gave them the vote in 1975-76. But the
:34:33. > :34:37.view that the Conservative party of -- the Conservative party's problems
:34:37. > :34:43.about Europe, that is a problem with the Conservatives, not the rest of
:34:43. > :34:50.the British people. There is a case to say the argument for Europe has
:34:50. > :34:52.gone by default. People stopped arguing, for some reason when the
:34:52. > :34:56.Britain and Europe movement and the single currency argument finished,
:34:56. > :35:00.nobody bothered to make the arguing for Europe any more, and in that
:35:00. > :35:05.sense it is good to have the debate. But it is very much a Conservative
:35:05. > :35:08.party view. Cameron is responding to a Conservative party problem that he
:35:08. > :35:13.got defeated on over and over again, the issue that it is terrible to
:35:13. > :35:17.give workers any protection, it all comes from Europe, the argument
:35:17. > :35:22.about immigration. Michael did not use any of those arguments, but that
:35:22. > :35:28.is a problem for the Prime Minister. He has to find a way out of it, so
:35:28. > :35:32.he invents this renegotiation. final question to you. It is not
:35:32. > :35:39.exactly helpful to the coalition. This is salt in the wound, is it
:35:39. > :35:44.not? I do not see it like that. It is such a domestic party issue. And
:35:44. > :35:48.tomorrow's Guardian, Nigel Lawson's intervention is described as
:35:48. > :35:53.throwing a grenade into a small building. That small building is the
:35:53. > :35:56.Conservative party. It is not the preoccupation of the mass of people.
:35:56. > :36:00.UKIP supporters are more concerned about the economy than about
:36:00. > :36:03.Britain's place in Europe. Thank you.
:36:03. > :36:07.Now, One Direction have done it, Prince Harry's about to do it. But
:36:07. > :36:10.even we were taken aback at reports this week that Daily Mail columnist
:36:10. > :36:13.Melanie Philips has decided the one thing America lacks is a decent dose
:36:13. > :36:16.of social conservatism, and decided to have a crack at breaking America.
:36:16. > :36:19.And in order to give her British Invasion some commercial teeth,
:36:20. > :36:22.she's re-branded herself with a fancy website and a funky new logo.
:36:22. > :36:30.You can now buy, online, a Melanie Philips baseball cap for �23.20,
:36:30. > :36:34.excluding delivery. And no, this is not a joke, this is capitalism in
:36:34. > :36:37.all its glory. So why are we so obsessed with everything Yankee? We
:36:37. > :36:47.decided to find out and put our fascination with America in this
:36:47. > :37:01.
:37:01. > :37:04.and a child held captive for years in an otherwise unremarkable
:37:04. > :37:11.Cleveland house has not just dominated the news in the US but in
:37:11. > :37:15.the UK, too. It follows wall-to-wall coverage of the Boston bombings, the
:37:15. > :37:23.subsequent manhunt, not to mention Guant?namo hunger strikes, targeted
:37:23. > :37:28.drone strikes and 3-D printed guns. So why do we have such an insatiable
:37:28. > :37:32.appetite for all American stories? Do shared values and language
:37:32. > :37:37.explain why it's politics has asked in its grip, whether it be
:37:37. > :37:41.presidential elections, or presidential one-liners? Some things
:37:42. > :37:49.are beyond my control, for example this controversy about Jay-Z going
:37:49. > :37:53.to Cuba. It is unbelievable. I have 99 problems, and now Jay-Z is one.
:37:53. > :38:00.May be the fascination is not entirely one-way, with Prince
:38:00. > :38:05.Harry's wild West adventure staring excitement in Washington, DC, if not
:38:05. > :38:09.the casinos of Las Vegas. Are we right to give so much attention to
:38:09. > :38:13.the world's only superpower? Or do we risk ignoring the rest of the
:38:13. > :38:20.world in the process? Never let it be said that we would ever be so
:38:20. > :38:24.starstruck. Welcome to the show. It is the
:38:24. > :38:28.richest, most powerful country in the world, it almost speaks
:38:28. > :38:34.English. Really, we should not be surprised that the Brits are
:38:34. > :38:43.obsessed with it. Yes, well, I think you are obsessed with America's on
:38:43. > :38:48.Basque. Do you know what I mean? America has all the culture, the
:38:48. > :38:55.Hollywood movies, the action movies. They are just an extension,
:38:55. > :39:02.I think, of American militarism. It is just this big, explosive thing.
:39:02. > :39:07.And I think that you guys, being a little reserved, I think you guys
:39:07. > :39:17.like look at America and go, my gosh, look at that, they are
:39:17. > :39:17.
:39:18. > :39:23.exploding everything! And you get drawn to the emotional, it is ramped
:39:23. > :39:27.up emotionally in America. But it is also on music summer television,
:39:27. > :39:30.movies. American popular culture is the most powerful popular culture in
:39:30. > :39:39.the world and we have no barriers to it because we share the same
:39:39. > :39:44.language. The French, Germans and others, they have some... Americans
:39:44. > :39:48.are very provincial, too. Though I understand that. That is what annoys
:39:48. > :39:58.us. We are obsessed with America but they could not give a monkeys about
:39:58. > :40:02.
:40:02. > :40:09.us unless it is the Royal family. Actually, the tissue culture, I am a
:40:09. > :40:15.comedian and I grew up loving Monty Python's flying Circus. Absolutely
:40:15. > :40:24.adoring it. Douglas Adams, hitchhikers guide to the Galaxy, all
:40:24. > :40:27.of that stuff. It is a two-way thing. One of the reasons why we are
:40:27. > :40:31.interested in America is because what happens there are usually
:40:31. > :40:38.happens here about six months or a year later, whether it is
:40:38. > :40:46.multichannel television, cat next Apple, the latest technology, all of
:40:46. > :40:50.the big companies are American companies. The French, the Germans,
:40:50. > :40:55.the Spanish are just as drawn to America as we are, but they have the
:40:55. > :40:58.language barrier. But why so many kids in Europe speak English is that
:40:58. > :41:02.there is such cultural domination by the United States that they have to
:41:02. > :41:05.learning wish to participate. One of the things that the British get is
:41:05. > :41:09.the feeling of non-provincialism if they understand the United States,
:41:09. > :41:15.and it is easy to understand because the language is the same. You
:41:15. > :41:24.suddenly feel you are living in a community of 350 million. And the
:41:24. > :41:30.language for the political class, who are obsessed, with some who
:41:30. > :41:33.carry the biography of Johnson, that is a love of language. Unless you
:41:33. > :41:41.have the language commie cannot follow it as closely as you can
:41:42. > :41:45.follow Washington. Yes, that is part of the fascination but it is also
:41:45. > :41:49.the history. It is such a young country and they are so proud of
:41:49. > :41:54.their country. We are more understated and we like the fact
:41:54. > :41:58.that Americans appreciate our Royal family. But we see such bash macro
:41:58. > :42:01.something we find difficult to comprehend, which is a gut feeling
:42:02. > :42:08.that their nation, a patriotism that lives and breathes, and you can see
:42:08. > :42:13.it all the time. The fact that all of that could have been ours if we
:42:13. > :42:22.had not made the wrong decisions are few hundred years ago. Are you proud
:42:22. > :42:29.of America? You know what, I am not proud of part of America that stands
:42:29. > :42:36.around chanting USA, because I think... We do not like that bit
:42:36. > :42:42.either. I do not like that bit, we are the best. But to be the country
:42:42. > :42:48.that the rest of the world looks to for ideas and trends. That is nice.
:42:48. > :42:53.And being in America, as a comedian I am more of a critic. I am more of
:42:53. > :42:56.a critic of the homogenised culture, the corporate culture. I am
:42:56. > :43:03.a little disappointed in President Obama not being as left as I thought
:43:03. > :43:13.he was going to be. We are running out of time, but you are working
:43:13. > :43:16.
:43:17. > :43:21.here at the moment. At the Soho Theatre until May 25. We will give
:43:21. > :43:25.him his medication! That's your lot for tonight, folks.
:43:25. > :43:28.But not for us. We're giving Annabel's a miss tonight. Michael
:43:28. > :43:32.needs an early night. Organising a British withdrawal from the European
:43:32. > :43:35.Union isn't something you do with a hangover. So we've decided to join
:43:35. > :43:39.him at his hostel for some Blue Nun cocoa, a snuggle, and an early night
:43:39. > :43:42.under his John Major memorial duvet. So we leave you tonight, in the week