:00:20. > :00:22.shot in space goes viral, This Week goes into political orbit.
:00:22. > :00:28.mission control, Prime Minister David Cameron is trying to avoid
:00:28. > :00:38.being hit by a destructive european asteroid. Commentator and star gazer
:00:38. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:44.Toby Young studies the galaxy. a week of solar eruptions, the stars
:00:44. > :00:47.are aligning for David Cameron, who has positioned himself as the only
:00:47. > :00:57.mainstream party leader bold enough to give the public and in out EU
:00:57. > :00:58.
:00:58. > :01:02.referendum. A black hole in the universe absorbs all of the light
:01:02. > :01:09.and stars around it, but are there signs that the whole in Britain's
:01:09. > :01:19.economy is getting smaller? Adam Boulton is spinning the planets.
:01:19. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:23.least this week the governor of the Bank of England cracked a smile.
:01:23. > :01:26.?NEWLINE And one of the world's brightest stars, Angelina Jolie,
:01:26. > :01:29.announces she's had a double mastectomy. Will this empower women
:01:29. > :01:38.right across the universe? Shooting star, model and business women Katie
:01:38. > :01:40.Price explores our deep space. everybody could be as honest as
:01:41. > :01:47.Angelina Jolie, this world would be a much better place.
:01:47. > :01:51.Commencing countdown, engines on. Get ready for a Big Bang.
:01:51. > :01:54.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a sacred retreat for disgraced
:01:54. > :01:58.hypocrites, to where those who have sinned are cruelly banished to seek
:01:58. > :02:03.spiritual renewal, prayer, and penance. Oh, and free wine. Mustn't
:02:03. > :02:05.ever forget the free wine. Because let's face it, with MPs starting to
:02:06. > :02:08.get pre-election nerves, Westminster has been on one almighty euro-bender
:02:08. > :02:10.this week, with sozzled Tories, some with vulnerable majorities,
:02:10. > :02:13.staggering around the Palace of Westminster drunk and disorderly on
:02:13. > :02:22.a heady cocktail of Euro-sceptic home brew and draft parliamentary
:02:22. > :02:25.amendments. Call-me-Dave claimed to be "profoundly chillaxed" at the
:02:25. > :02:32.prospect of half his backbenchers throwing up all over his Queen's
:02:32. > :02:34.Speech. But he said so from the safety of the USA, where he
:02:34. > :02:37.increasingly looked like an African leader who'd gone overseas, only to
:02:37. > :02:40.find the natives back home in open rebellion and threatening to topple
:02:40. > :02:50.the regime, with even copious quantities of red meat, in the shape
:02:50. > :02:50.
:02:50. > :02:53.of a draft referendum bill, failing out his support. But back home there
:02:53. > :02:56.was nothing but treachery afoot, with Nadine Dorries, only just back
:02:56. > :03:06.in the Tory embrace, yet already openly considering an electoral
:03:06. > :03:06.
:03:06. > :03:12.proposal from that nice Mr Farage. Yes, Love on the Right. Truly,
:03:12. > :03:14.Nadly, Deeply! Speaking of shotgun weddings, where the bride and groom
:03:14. > :03:18.look distinctly uncomfortable, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two
:03:18. > :03:21.guilty looking individuals, who really shouldn't be out this late.
:03:21. > :03:26.Think of them as the Vicky Pryce and Chris Huhne of late night political
:03:26. > :03:28.chat, without the electronic tags. I speak, of course, of
:03:28. > :03:38.#tesstubeblairbabe Tessa Jowell, and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo"
:03:38. > :03:50.
:03:50. > :03:54.Portillo. Your moment of the week? It is about trains. What a surprise!
:03:54. > :04:00.It was decided today that the business case has not been made for
:04:00. > :04:03.high-speed to. My reflection on this is that will be no railway line or
:04:03. > :04:07.motorway in history would ever have been justified by the tools we have
:04:07. > :04:09.to analyse the economic and fits, and yet we know the world would not
:04:09. > :04:16.exist in the way that it does without the roads and well pleased
:04:16. > :04:19.that we have. It is interesting that all other developed and developing
:04:19. > :04:29.economies are heading towards high-speed, from China the response,
:04:29. > :04:29.
:04:29. > :04:34.Italy, Germany. So it is a thumbs up for high-speed two from you? Yes.
:04:34. > :04:44.moment of the week came today when it was announced that David Beckham
:04:44. > :04:48.was retiring from football. Aged 38. Absolutely. It is my moment of the
:04:48. > :04:53.week for two reasons. First of all, Saturday is the anniversary of the
:04:53. > :04:57.arrival of the Olympic flame in Cornwall a year ago. And really
:04:57. > :05:01.magnificent start to the Olympics, as it went 8000 miles around the
:05:01. > :05:07.country. David Beckham brought it act of this country from Olympia.
:05:07. > :05:15.And today it was also announced, the final letting of the final venue in
:05:16. > :05:20.the Olympic Park. The broadcast centre. So now every venue has an
:05:20. > :05:24.assured long-term future. So the legacy of the park is assured, and
:05:24. > :05:31.that is a pretty great achievement for everybody who was involved. The
:05:31. > :05:41.macro didn't David Beckham sent you flowers? He did. When I became a
:05:41. > :05:45.
:05:45. > :05:51.dame. I am not sure he told Harsh. They were from her, too, and the
:05:51. > :05:55.children. I was very touched. Now, whilst Call-me-Dave sailed
:05:55. > :05:58.around the US this week, there've been choppy waters back home.
:05:58. > :06:01.Cabinet colleagues Michael Gove and Phil Hammond followed our Choo
:06:01. > :06:04.Choo's lead, and said they'd jump the EU ship if a vote were held
:06:04. > :06:07.today. Over 100 of his MPs threw the Queen's Speech overboard, because it
:06:07. > :06:11.lacked any mention of a referendum. And backbench pressure has forced
:06:11. > :06:14.the PM to publish a draft referendum bill, to try and bail the government
:06:14. > :06:24.out. So has the Cameron battleship been torpedoed by Europe? We asked
:06:24. > :06:39.
:06:39. > :06:43.our own little sailor, Toby Young, about Conservative divisions over
:06:43. > :06:50.Europe and icebergs ahead for the Prime Minister. Few newspapers can
:06:50. > :06:53.resist a Tory splits headline, but don't believe what you read. The
:06:53. > :06:57.Cameron battleship may have strayed off course over the past week. He
:06:57. > :07:02.should have published his referendum bill on the same day as the Queen's
:07:02. > :07:05.Speech, but he is the only mainstream party leader offering an
:07:05. > :07:11.in-out referendum on the EU and he is now backing legislation to prove
:07:11. > :07:16.he means business. Yesterday's vote was not rebellion. It was about the
:07:16. > :07:19.Tory crew expressing regret that plans for the U referendum were not
:07:19. > :07:24.in the Queens speech. That was not a criticism of their captain's
:07:24. > :07:30.leadership. The MPs who voted for it know that his hands are tied his lip
:07:30. > :07:34.Dem ship mates. They were expressing their frustration about the chains
:07:34. > :07:36.of coalition politics, particularly left tenant Nick Clegg, who will not
:07:36. > :07:43.countenance an EU referendum, even though it was in his leading
:07:43. > :07:46.manifesto. One of the benefits of the referendum bill is that it will
:07:46. > :07:50.force Nick Clegg and Ed Miliband to declare which side of the deck they
:07:50. > :07:56.are standing on, instead of cowering in their bunks like Lily livered
:07:56. > :07:59.landlubbers. The only danger to Cameron is that Miller band might
:07:59. > :08:03.stop dithering, take the plunge and actually commit to a referendum, but
:08:03. > :08:13.I do not think he needs to worry. Ed Miliband is not about to break the
:08:13. > :08:16.
:08:16. > :08:18.habit of a lifetime. Despite retired shipmates like Nigel Lawson and Mr
:08:18. > :08:23.Portillo trying to stick their oars in and rock the Prime Minister's
:08:23. > :08:27.boat, he has set his course, his crew know where they are going and
:08:27. > :08:30.at last they are all pulling in the same direction. The public now know
:08:30. > :08:40.that there is only one party leader who can deliver the in out
:08:40. > :08:45.
:08:45. > :08:49.referendum that 82% of them won. And that is captain Cameron.
:08:49. > :08:53.Toby Young joining us from the embankment. Welcome back to the
:08:53. > :08:58.programme. Who would have thought it, Toby, we are all so stupid. We
:08:58. > :09:03.did not realise what a brilliant week the Prime Minister had. He has
:09:03. > :09:06.not had a brilliant week. It would have been much more sensible to
:09:06. > :09:12.publish the referendum bill on the same day as the Queens speech. That
:09:12. > :09:16.might have seen off any potential rebellion. But as things have fallen
:09:16. > :09:20.out, she is the only mainstream party leader offering an in-out
:09:20. > :09:24.referendum in the next Parliament. There are two main arguments in
:09:24. > :09:27.favour of this position. The first is that anyone who is in any doubt
:09:27. > :09:33.about Cameron's commitment to hold an EU referendum in the next
:09:33. > :09:37.Parliament, those doubts will have been allayed now. He may bring a few
:09:37. > :09:41.Conservative refugees who were flirting with UKIP act of the fold.
:09:41. > :09:44.Secondly, it puts the other party leaders on the back foot. Ed
:09:44. > :09:50.Miliband is in a ethical position, supposedly siding with the little
:09:50. > :09:54.guy against the business. But on the EU referendum, he is siding with big
:09:54. > :09:58.business against the 82% of the public who want a referendum.
:09:59. > :10:01.be the only one promising a referendum of the three big
:10:01. > :10:06.parties, but also the only Prime Minister ever to have 100
:10:06. > :10:13.backbenchers voting against the Queens speech. Did you realise how
:10:13. > :10:17.hunky-dory it was for Mr Cameron? David Cameron decided in January, a
:10:17. > :10:20.new decision, that he would announce an in-out referendum, and I am not
:10:20. > :10:24.sure he had thought through the consequences, for instance people
:10:24. > :10:29.expressing their view as to how they would vote in that referendum. I
:10:29. > :10:32.have a feeling that Euro-sceptics should not want this referendum. My
:10:32. > :10:36.reason for saying that is that without a referendum I think there
:10:36. > :10:41.is no chance of written being taken further into Europe, into the euro,
:10:41. > :10:47.the eurozone and political integration. -- written being taken
:10:47. > :10:49.further in. If there is a referendum and the vote is to stay in, I think
:10:50. > :10:55.that will be the green light for political leaders in decades to come
:10:55. > :10:58.to take us into the eurozone. There is quite a good chance that the vote
:10:58. > :11:04.would be to stay in because the British people are fundamentally
:11:04. > :11:09.conservative. If they were offered the chance to leave the European
:11:09. > :11:15.Union, there is a chance they would not, because the status quo is to be
:11:15. > :11:18.in the European Union. So actually, I think no political leader would
:11:18. > :11:22.dare to take us into the euro without a referendum on that
:11:22. > :11:26.subject. If there has been a referendum on staying in Europe, I
:11:26. > :11:30.think elliptical leaders in future would be emboldened to say that the
:11:30. > :11:33.British people have settled their fate, had their say and we will go
:11:33. > :11:39.on into political integration. If Euro-sceptics understood their
:11:39. > :11:41.interests, they would probably not want a referendum. That is why some
:11:41. > :11:46.Euro-sceptics are wary of any EU referendum in this Parliament,
:11:46. > :11:49.because they think it will take some years to persuade the public of the
:11:50. > :11:54.rightness of their position, even though the polls say that more
:11:54. > :11:57.people are in favour of out than in at present. They are nervous about
:11:57. > :12:04.big this must mounting a convincing economic doom and for staying in.
:12:04. > :12:11.But I think in 2017, if Cameron is re-elected, I think we will vote to
:12:11. > :12:18.get out. Is there a danger that Labour is on the wrong end of topic
:12:18. > :12:26.opinion? I am a bit unused by the polling evidence, which is highly
:12:26. > :12:33.variable. -- a bit bemused. Perhaps I spend more time knocking on
:12:33. > :12:36.people's doors and troubling them than the three of you do. We would
:12:36. > :12:40.get arrested! I cannot remember the last time that anybody on the
:12:41. > :12:44.doorstep, when I was soliciting their support, said to me, I will
:12:44. > :12:54.support you if you vote for an in-out referendum. This is the
:12:54. > :12:55.
:12:55. > :12:57.argument that Europe is not high up the agenda. The exactly. Also, the
:12:57. > :13:03.issue has become an iconic receptacle for all the things, and
:13:03. > :13:09.there are very many, that people are worried about at the moment. That
:13:09. > :13:13.does not mean I do not believe that Europe needs reform, but I think the
:13:13. > :13:23.case for reform is best achieved by being a full party member. You do
:13:23. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:29.not agree with your former colleague, Keith Vaz, that David
:13:29. > :13:33.Cameron cannot fight the next election without an EU pledge.
:13:33. > :13:37.not. The pressure is great because of the surge from UKIP, but there is
:13:37. > :13:43.a great risk for any political leader to confuse long-term
:13:43. > :13:49.strategic judgement for short term political advantage. That is what
:13:49. > :13:53.you want, you want Labour not to promise a referendum. Absolutely,
:13:53. > :13:57.because the opinion polls say 82% of the public want an in-out
:13:57. > :14:00.referendum. If it is a clear choice between David Cameron and Ed
:14:00. > :14:05.Miliband, one of whom is offering a referendum and one of whom is not,
:14:05. > :14:09.that would be a reason to vote for David Cameron. I am not 100%
:14:09. > :14:13.confident that Ed Miliband will not finally capitulate and commit to an
:14:13. > :14:22.EU referendum. But at least it will look as though he is following David
:14:23. > :14:28.Cameron's June. -- David Cameron's position. You said you want to leave
:14:28. > :14:34.the EU must remark but no, I said I would vote to get out if there were
:14:34. > :14:44.a referendum. You do not want to be in the EU but you do not want a
:14:44. > :14:46.
:14:46. > :14:51.referendum to facilitate it. I've tried to explain this, and I will do
:14:51. > :14:54.it again. Slowly.The eurozone is the core, where the action is,
:14:55. > :14:58.that's what's integrating and we are not in, and thank goodness. For as
:14:58. > :15:01.long as there's not a referendum, no political leader would dare take us
:15:01. > :15:07.into the eurozone, so I don't want to leave the euro. But, if there
:15:07. > :15:10.were a referendum, because I think the consequence of a yes vote, of an
:15:10. > :15:13.in-vote would be that Britain then would be sucked into the
:15:13. > :15:17.centralising European process, then I think the only sensible thing to
:15:17. > :15:21.do would be to vote out. You are showing an ability to look very far
:15:21. > :15:24.in the distance and predict the future? And also a long way in the
:15:24. > :15:29.past because everything that's happened in the past with the
:15:29. > :15:33.exception of the euro has been that the British political establishment
:15:33. > :15:37.eventually has shown coward else and that is given way and has fallen in
:15:37. > :15:41.with the European project. The one instance of this not happening was
:15:41. > :15:46.Gordon Brown's resistance going into the euro which luckily... Against Mr
:15:46. > :15:50.Blair's view? Yes, which luckily has established us in the position which
:15:50. > :15:54.no leader dare go into the euro without a referendum. I'm not so
:15:54. > :15:59.confident as you that in the absence of a referendum we wouldn't be
:15:59. > :16:03.forced to make various concessions to the architects of the European
:16:03. > :16:08.project over the next five years or so. We have been forced to integrate
:16:08. > :16:12.to a far greater extent than we ever consented to. What makes you think
:16:13. > :16:17.that process would stop unless there was a yes vote - that seems to me
:16:17. > :16:23.awfully naive. Do you think David Cameron, if he wins the next
:16:24. > :16:27.election, huge if, can he bring back many powers that matter? I'm not
:16:27. > :16:32.convinced there could be any meaningful negotiation. If he didn't
:16:32. > :16:36.do that, how would you vote? As a Euro-sceptic and I'm pleased he's
:16:36. > :16:41.pitched his tent on that ground because I don't think he can extract
:16:41. > :16:45.any meaningful concessions... would you vote? No.So you are both
:16:45. > :16:52.opt same side? I would like a referendum, but Michael's position
:16:52. > :16:56.is different. I happen to think Ed Miliband would be mad to go for a
:16:56. > :17:02.referendum. Do you think he'll stick to his guns all the way through to
:17:03. > :17:07.the next election, Ed Ed Miliband? think he'll push very hard the case
:17:07. > :17:13.for reform. I think he'll push David Cameron very hard on precisely the
:17:13. > :17:16.nature of the renegotiation he wants on which the Prime Minister's so far
:17:16. > :17:22.been extremely vague. If you get that, we'll have a bindery choice in
:17:22. > :17:27.the election. Before we leave this, one more thing - when Harold Wilson
:17:27. > :17:30.depewed Tim Callaghan to go and re renegotiate in advance of the
:17:30. > :17:34.referendum, Jim Callaghan I think came back after about six months and
:17:34. > :17:37.said he'd rather go to a National Executive meeting of the Labour
:17:37. > :17:44.Party than go back to the Council of Ministers.
:17:44. > :17:47.Hard work. Doesn't get worse than that, does it. Thank you very much.
:17:47. > :17:53.Now we have limited ambitions here on This Week, beyond the impossible
:17:53. > :17:57.dream of hearing Tessa tell us what she really thinks about Ed Miliband
:17:58. > :18:02.for once in her life. But there is one anticipated booking and we can
:18:02. > :18:08.all die happy. After years of begging letters from Michael, the
:18:08. > :18:11.woman that puts the "oo" in choo choo, Katie Price is here to talk
:18:11. > :18:16.about female empowerment. If you can sense Michael's quiff getting off of
:18:16. > :18:21.a quiver, make your thoughts known on the Twitter, Fleecebook and good
:18:21. > :18:26.old interweb. It wasn't all about Europe this week. Dave went on his
:18:26. > :18:30.trip to America to talk to Mr Obama about a US trade deal with, oh, yes,
:18:30. > :18:36.Europe, sorry. All the journalists wanted to ask questions about, oh,
:18:36. > :18:46.yes, that would be Europe too. So we turned to Sky News and there were a
:18:46. > :19:05.
:19:05. > :19:10.few stories beside that, this was What would the Prime Minister in
:19:10. > :19:16.America and the Tories obsessing about Europe, the business of wealth
:19:16. > :19:20.has been about elsewhere this week. Even if David Cameron's special
:19:20. > :19:25.relationship with Barack Obama did not extend to understanding the
:19:25. > :19:29.President's favourite game. We have to confess that David still does not
:19:29. > :19:34.understand basketball, I still do not understand cricket. The rules of
:19:34. > :19:37.Tory Euro-Scepticism is complicated more so than basketball. The Prime
:19:37. > :19:41.Minister promises a referendum which you want so you downmine his Queen's
:19:41. > :19:50.Speech and he comes back with the idea of a referendum in the next
:19:50. > :19:57.Parliament which you can't force to do it. Confused? Obama wasn't it. He
:19:57. > :20:03.went straight for the hoop. probably want to see if you can fix
:20:03. > :20:07.what's broken in a very important reslaiption before you break it off
:20:07. > :20:12.-- relationship. Controlling the gawp from thousands of miles away is
:20:12. > :20:17.difficult -- game. Nick Clegg was called on from the substitutes bench
:20:17. > :20:22.from PMQs, only to find himself blocked by his own right-wingers.
:20:22. > :20:27.the front-page is a man opposing as one Nick Clegg who says "it's time
:20:27. > :20:35.for a real referendum on Europe, an in-out referendum, not a referendum
:20:35. > :20:37.on a treaty change". Was that man an impostor or a hypocrite? !
:20:37. > :20:46.LAUGHTER Mr Speaker, that man who I believe
:20:46. > :20:51.to be me was stating something then which my party's restated ever
:20:51. > :20:54.since, was that we should have a referendum on Europe when the rules
:20:54. > :20:59.change. Nick Clegg says the Lib Demes will
:20:59. > :21:03.back a euro referendum. But when he says, not the Conservatives.
:21:03. > :21:08.Meanwhile, the Euro-sceptics were playing a game of their own, happily
:21:08. > :21:11.passing the ball around, between themselves. Some want a new team.
:21:11. > :21:16.Drop the Liberal Democrats, sign up UKIP.
:21:16. > :21:24.Many of us think it's important that the right unites and it's almost a
:21:24. > :21:27.first step to a reproachment between the Conservative Party and UKIP.
:21:27. > :21:33.The political establishment has essentially closed ranks over the
:21:33. > :21:43.last 30 years and denied the electorate a choice. We now have a
:21:43. > :21:47.
:21:47. > :21:51.golden opportunity to right this With his opponents fighting
:21:51. > :21:55.themselves, Ed Miliband effectively had the week off. Labour would much
:21:55. > :22:02.rather talk about a referendum which is definitely going to happen on
:22:02. > :22:06.Scotland. An old lion roared... Oh. In the last few years, I've had time
:22:06. > :22:12.on my hands, time to reflect, courtesy of the British people, and
:22:12. > :22:18.I want to put the positive principled forward-looking case for
:22:18. > :22:22.a strong Scottish Parliament inside a strong United Kingdom.
:22:22. > :22:26.Labour might have expected to be doing better, but following their
:22:26. > :22:30.disappointing local elections, two opinion polls this week had the
:22:30. > :22:40.party below 35%. The threshold at which Ed Miliband
:22:40. > :23:03.
:23:03. > :23:07.believes he'd be guaranteed victory The Lib Demes had their
:23:07. > :23:12.embarrassments too. As Chris Huhne, the former Cabinet Minister, and his
:23:12. > :23:18.very much ex-wife, Vicky Price, got out of the sin bin.
:23:18. > :23:22.It has been a humbling and sobering experience. I would like to thank
:23:22. > :23:27.all of those who 've written to me, the hundreds of letters that I've
:23:27. > :23:31.had, and all my family and friends who 've stood by me.
:23:31. > :23:36.While Labour were arguing over whether they had an economic policy,
:23:36. > :23:40.there were at last some signs of good news. At least the governor of
:23:40. > :23:44.the Bank of England broke the habit of a lifetime and smiled, but
:23:44. > :23:47.perhaps that's just because he was leaving. Pf
:23:47. > :23:51.Today's projections are for growth to be a little stronger and
:23:51. > :23:55.inflation a little weaker than we expected three months ago. That's
:23:55. > :23:59.the first time I've been able to say that since before the financial
:23:59. > :24:04.crisis. In the end, the Clinton campaign
:24:04. > :24:08.probably had it right - the economy stupid is likely to decide the next
:24:08. > :24:13.general election. But the Conservatives might ponder the words
:24:13. > :24:21.of that other great American, Michael Jordan "talent wins games,
:24:21. > :24:27.but team work and intelligence wins Championships".
:24:27. > :24:30.Thanks to the London Lions basketball team for playing with
:24:30. > :24:35.Adam's balls, sorry, playing ball with Adam. What should we talk
:24:35. > :24:42.about? Erm, Europe, let's talk about Europe. We have not done that for
:24:42. > :24:45.ages! Miranda's with us. Good to see you. Is Mr Clegg - we have heard
:24:45. > :24:51.Tessa be quite clear she doesn't think Labour should promise a
:24:51. > :24:56.referendum and she doesn't think Mr Miliband will promise a referendum -
:24:56. > :24:59.how will Mr Clegg go? I agree with Tessa very strongly that it would be
:24:59. > :25:04.good if some people stayed sober during the euro drunkenness that you
:25:04. > :25:07.referred to in your introduction. I think it behoves the Lib Demes and
:25:07. > :25:11.the Labour Party to stick up for the large proportion of the population
:25:11. > :25:16.who don't think this is the most important issue to be spending all
:25:16. > :25:21.our time discussing. So you think Mr Clegg should take a leaf out of...
:25:21. > :25:25.Hold that thought, Tessa. Carry on? But I do think that some sort of
:25:25. > :25:30.referendum on Europe is becoming more and more inevitable. I thought
:25:30. > :25:34.it was very interesting at PMQs yesterday when Nick Clegg did seem
:25:34. > :25:38.to indicate that he also thought that at some time in the not too
:25:38. > :25:44.distant future the country would get an EU referendum, whether before or
:25:44. > :25:50.after. But are they going to get that with Mr Clegg leaning against
:25:50. > :25:56.the door of the referendum, or is he trying to stop it opening, on the
:25:56. > :26:01.other side, Mr David Cameron? Tory backbenchers have terror of
:26:01. > :26:03.UKIP. So at the moment, he's trying to remind his coalition partners I
:26:03. > :26:06.think that they should stay on track. It's very difficult to do
:26:06. > :26:10.because the poor Prime Minister, it's not really a very good
:26:10. > :26:14.situation is it, if we all feel sorry for the Prime Minister who's
:26:14. > :26:18.supposed to be in charge. He's been throwing letted meat off the back of
:26:19. > :26:23.the sledge to the wolves and it's not worked. They want more. So why
:26:23. > :26:28.doesn't Mr Clegg take the position Tessa says Mr Miliband will take?
:26:28. > :26:32.the moment he's said no. I think that is the responsible thing to do
:26:32. > :26:37.at the moment. It wasn't quite what he said at Prime Minister's Question
:26:37. > :26:41.Time? Because I think he was starting to acknowledge that it
:26:42. > :26:45.would be difficult to go into the next general election without
:26:45. > :26:50.everybody basically saying that there will be some sort of EU
:26:50. > :26:53.referendum. I'm not sure there will be the same promise. You think
:26:53. > :27:00.that's really suggest because what you actually put to the people, what
:27:00. > :27:04.the question is, hugely, as the Sarahable polling that Tessa talked
:27:04. > :27:08.about, it matters what you are putting to the people and how you
:27:08. > :27:18.phrasivity. Absolutely.All three manifestos will have something in
:27:18. > :27:23.there. Tessa says it won't?I think there will be something in there. I
:27:23. > :27:27.think there will be something strong in the Lib Dem manifesto. It's easy
:27:27. > :27:30.for the Lib Demes or the Labour Party to say that in the event of a
:27:31. > :27:34.substantial treaty change that affects the brush people, there 'll
:27:34. > :27:39.be another referendum. That 's the law? Exactly. That's established.
:27:40. > :27:42.They could change it but they are in the proposing it, Labour? It's the
:27:43. > :27:46.law but doesn't prevent people mentioning it in the manifesto
:27:46. > :27:49.saying they have addressed the issue. People will remember they've
:27:49. > :27:52.been promised this in three manifestos before and didn't get it.
:27:52. > :27:59.It remains in the hands of the Government of the day to determine
:27:59. > :28:04.whether the change is substantial or not. The risk is that the scope for
:28:04. > :28:10.renegotiation is skipped over and all the focus is on an in-out
:28:10. > :28:13.referendum. I just don't believe that that's where people are. I'm
:28:13. > :28:19.absolutely sure you can get a polling result that makes it look as
:28:19. > :28:28.if it is, but in practice, I don't believe that is the case. You never
:28:28. > :28:35.know unless you have a referendum? ! Whether you or I believe is neither
:28:35. > :28:37.here nor there? It needs to be put to the test? I don't want to suggest
:28:38. > :28:40.that the doors I knock on become representative of a national
:28:40. > :28:44.position, but I think if you look across the range of polls that are
:28:44. > :28:48.being conducted on this and the different scenarios, you do, you are
:28:48. > :28:53.absolutely right, it's very clear that the nature of the question, the
:28:53. > :28:59.circumstances in which the question is being put change the outcome.
:28:59. > :29:03.Where the focus should be is on jobs, on growth. The benefits that
:29:03. > :29:07.we derive economically from our membership of the European Union
:29:07. > :29:11.maximise. That's enough Europe, Ed! We'll move on to the economy.
:29:11. > :29:16.Hurray. The outgoing governor of the Bank of England was for the first
:29:16. > :29:21.time in a long time, by his standards, relatively optimistic.
:29:21. > :29:26.No-one's talking about a boom, noun's even talking about robust
:29:26. > :29:36.growth, but the people are now talking about a sense that a modest
:29:36. > :29:38.
:29:38. > :29:41.amount of growth is returning to the economy. Do you agree? Yes. There
:29:41. > :29:45.has been an accumulation of evidence over the last couple of months that
:29:45. > :29:49.things are looking better. Although it is not going to be robust growth,
:29:49. > :29:54.even modest growth would again to make a difference quite quickly.
:29:54. > :29:58.When I was in the Treasury, I was struck by the dynamic effect of
:29:58. > :30:02.recovery. The speed with which government revenues go up when
:30:02. > :30:05.businesses are making more money, when more people are in work and pay
:30:05. > :30:09.is going up, and on the other hand public spending comes down because
:30:09. > :30:18.fewer people are unemployed, it transforms public finances very
:30:18. > :30:25.fast. Even before this growth has started, and for the past few years
:30:25. > :30:28.you can hardly say economic policy has been a growing success,
:30:28. > :30:35.Labour's poll lead is not huge and you get the feeling it is quite
:30:35. > :30:43.soft. What happens if growth returns? Well, if growth returns,
:30:43. > :30:48.that will be, if growth returns. But the question is what is happening in
:30:48. > :30:52.the economy. That is not the question I asked. The question is,
:30:52. > :30:58.what happens to Labour, not far ahead without any growth, so what
:30:58. > :31:04.happens if there is growth? This bunching in the polls is partly
:31:04. > :31:08.because of the UKIP effect. There are certainly people who vote Lib
:31:09. > :31:14.Dem, who vote Labour. I am going to answer your question, but I am
:31:14. > :31:19.trying to set out the context that it is none of the above. People are
:31:19. > :31:26.turning their back on the mainstream parties. Even on labour, when things
:31:26. > :31:29.are bad. If things get better, what will they do then? If things get
:31:29. > :31:37.better, I think there is always a risk that incumbency is more
:31:37. > :31:43.attractive than the risk of change. I think we absolutely... So it is a
:31:43. > :31:46.danger for Labour? There is no danger for the country if growth
:31:46. > :31:51.returns and no danger if people find it easier to get into work and
:31:51. > :31:55.businesses to thrive. The danger for the Lib Dems is that even if the
:31:55. > :32:00.economy does come almost right, the Lib Dems are not going to get credit
:32:00. > :32:06.for it. That is an enormous danger, because there is no gratitude in
:32:06. > :32:08.politics. Even if it works out for the best, the most that the Lib Dems
:32:08. > :32:14.can do is hope that some proportion of the electorate will give them
:32:14. > :32:18.credit for being a part of it. But that is very difficult. I don't
:32:18. > :32:22.agree there is no gratitude. If the coalition had made a decent fist of
:32:22. > :32:25.arguing why we had been put through five years of austerity, why the
:32:25. > :32:32.parties in the coalition were the only ones who would do what was
:32:32. > :32:34.necessary, take it seriously, why Labour was an irrelevant set of
:32:34. > :32:42.escapists, unwilling to confront reality, that would be a strong
:32:42. > :32:46.case. We had proof this week that Michael Howard was right, prison
:32:46. > :32:56.works, because Chris Hewden said he has been humbled. Who would ever
:32:56. > :32:59.
:32:59. > :33:04.have thought that? He is in a glorious tradition of politicians.
:33:04. > :33:07.Do you believe he was humble? imagine it is a pretty appalling
:33:07. > :33:12.experience to be brought so low. I have not had the pleasure to speak
:33:12. > :33:21.to him since his release so I cannot tell you first hand. Will you let us
:33:21. > :33:23.know when you do? I will do. Now, in the immortal words of Paula
:33:23. > :33:33.White, Stoke Radio superstar and possible future This Week host,
:33:33. > :33:36."It's a P-A-R-T-Y because I said sooooooooo". And just like Paula,
:33:36. > :33:39.we're not drunk. We've had a couple of drinks, but we're not drunk.
:33:39. > :33:42.Nanny Jowell's made sure of that But clearly Paula's a girl after our own
:33:42. > :33:50.heart, unlike the Yentob killjoys who pulled the tired and emotional
:33:50. > :33:53.presenter off air. Shame on you, Yentobs. So we thought we'd show our
:33:53. > :34:03.support for Paula, burn our boxers, and put female empowerment in this
:34:03. > :34:15.
:34:15. > :34:18.world's most beautiful women, movie star Angelina Jolie, that she has
:34:18. > :34:28.undergone a double mastectomy, has been widely praised around the
:34:28. > :34:32.world. So, will her honesty helped to empower women to take further
:34:32. > :34:40.control of their lives and bodies in a way that the words of politicians
:34:40. > :34:43.often fail to achieve? I think she is a very brave lady not only to
:34:43. > :34:49.carry on with her work so well during such treatment but also to
:34:49. > :34:52.write about it now and talk about it. This week, the Archbishop of
:34:52. > :34:56.Canterbury's daughter spoke openly about her ongoing battle with
:34:56. > :35:04.depression, a subject that has always been surrounded by stigma and
:35:04. > :35:09.innuendo. The turning point for me was when I started to think of it as
:35:09. > :35:18.an illness, rather than me. And that's when I began to be able to
:35:18. > :35:24.have the space in my head to workout coping. So, do highly personal
:35:24. > :35:27.statements help empower and give the full strength to stand tall, just
:35:27. > :35:33.like the 1920s, when women achieved the right to vote and to control the
:35:33. > :35:40.height of their hemlines? Or are we fooling ourselves that a woman's
:35:40. > :35:45.image is no longer considered her most important attribute?
:35:45. > :35:50.We are joined by Katie Price. Welcome to the programme. I am glad
:35:50. > :35:55.you have got me up. It is very late. You had to do your duty by
:35:55. > :35:59.public service broadcasting. We are right in thinking that Angelina
:35:59. > :36:04.Jolie has done something extraordinary. Absolutely. I was
:36:04. > :36:08.shocked when I read it. What I like is that she went away, had it done
:36:08. > :36:17.and has publicly spoken about it. I hope people will be inspired to go
:36:17. > :36:21.and get checked. Ferman B. Is it all so right, the fact that she is such
:36:21. > :36:27.a beautiful actress, that it added to the poignancy? Personally, I
:36:27. > :36:32.don't think just the cause she is beautiful. As an outsider, you think
:36:32. > :36:37.she has the looks, the husband, the kids, she does a lot for charity and
:36:37. > :36:43.is intelligent. It goes to show it can happen to anybody. Personal
:36:43. > :36:48.confessions can have an impact. Absolutely. Myself, being in the
:36:48. > :36:53.public eye, I had postnatal depression. Having a disabled child,
:36:53. > :36:57.it is good when you are in a situation when you can speak out.
:36:57. > :37:01.People get inspired and can hopefully act on it. People have
:37:01. > :37:07.taken notice of this in a way they would never have done, had it not
:37:07. > :37:12.been for this global name, almost a brand. Definitely. Lots of people
:37:12. > :37:16.say, I have had cosmetic surgery and everything, but if I was in the same
:37:16. > :37:19.situation I would not hesitate. She has a family and she is thinking of
:37:19. > :37:25.them and her future. I think it is fantastic and I would do the same
:37:25. > :37:33.thing. Does something like this empower and embolden women in the
:37:33. > :37:41.world? I agree with Katie. I think what she has done is dignified and
:37:41. > :37:47.very brave and very inspirational. I read her New York Times piece, where
:37:47. > :37:51.she set out what had happened to her. I was very impressed by the
:37:51. > :37:59.lack of drama, the very measured way in which she described what had
:37:59. > :38:04.happened to her. The organisations that have a huge amount of expertise
:38:04. > :38:14.in this would say that that, of itself, is not enough to reduce the
:38:14. > :38:19.avoidable deaths from breast cancer. This gene, it is actually very
:38:19. > :38:23.rare, about one in 20 of the 50,000 women who get breast cancer every
:38:23. > :38:31.year. And so it does not mean that just because you have not got the
:38:31. > :38:35.faulty gene, you should not do all the other things. I understand that,
:38:35. > :38:39.but sticking with Angelina Jolie and the impact, I thought it was also
:38:39. > :38:43.interesting, Michael, the manner in which she chose to do it, dignified
:38:43. > :38:50.article in the New York Times, not the most sensational newspaper,
:38:50. > :38:54.rather than a TV interview. I think the whole thing has been
:38:54. > :38:58.magnificently done. Either way, if you look at the timetable of her
:38:58. > :39:02.engagements over the last few months, she has had to go through
:39:02. > :39:06.various stages of surgery, and in between those stages she has been
:39:06. > :39:12.out there again at world summits, at the G8 summit, as we have seen, with
:39:12. > :39:18.William Hague. I wonder if I can raise a different issue. What has
:39:18. > :39:22.happened is that there is a gene which predicts in her case and 87%
:39:22. > :39:26.chance of getting breast cancer or a variant cancer. This is going to be
:39:26. > :39:31.more and more part of our lives. We will find more genetic victors and
:39:31. > :39:36.people will be presented with difficult choices. In her case, she
:39:36. > :39:41.had an 87% chance, so in a way the choice was simplified. It will be
:39:41. > :39:48.truculent people are offered 40%, 35% chances, very tricky, but that
:39:48. > :39:53.is the world we are moving into. is interesting, politicians talking
:39:53. > :39:55.about this and public help setting out what you should do, but to
:39:55. > :40:03.capture the public imagination often takes a major celebrity talking
:40:03. > :40:07.about it. I agree. Politicians speak out, but if you are in the public
:40:07. > :40:14.eye can be as powerful as a politician. That is what I think,
:40:14. > :40:18.personally. Angelina Jolie has done it in such a dignified way. Jade
:40:18. > :40:23.Goody filmed her whole steps. Everybody does it differently. You
:40:23. > :40:29.have to admire both of them for making awareness of it. People
:40:29. > :40:31.should treat their body like a car. It needs an MOT. You should get
:40:31. > :40:41.checked and never think it will never happen to you because it can
:40:41. > :40:42.
:40:42. > :40:49.happen to anyone. There is another issue, which is tackling taboos.
:40:49. > :40:52.That was a big element of her statement. Exactly. If you have had
:40:52. > :40:59.your breasts removed, are you somehow less of a woman, less
:40:59. > :41:04.attractive? I think the sensitivity with which this was managed was
:41:04. > :41:10.communicating about that at every level, including that Brad Pitt had
:41:10. > :41:13.been there when she had the surgery and was involved and so forth. And
:41:13. > :41:19.then every newspaper on its front page had a picture of her looking
:41:19. > :41:24.gorgeous. The other thing I would like to say is, because this week is
:41:24. > :41:30.something called dying matters week, which began with a lecture in memory
:41:30. > :41:36.of Philip Gould, who was a Labour party strategist, very loved by the
:41:37. > :41:44.Labour Party. He had also documented the last stages of his life, rather
:41:44. > :41:48.like Jade Goody. The lecture on Monday night, with the organisations
:41:48. > :41:52.that are working to help people have better deaths by being able to do
:41:52. > :41:57.all the things before they die, and say the things they want to say, it
:41:57. > :42:00.is tackling those taboos. Maybe we would not be having this measles
:42:00. > :42:08.outbreak if Mr Blair had been more explicit at the height of the MMR
:42:08. > :42:15.scandal. We would not be having this needle -- measles epidemic had a
:42:15. > :42:20.rogue doctor not secured substantial support from parts of our media, and
:42:20. > :42:26.if parents, in face of the evidence... You cannot turn Tony
:42:26. > :42:30.Blair into the villain of the measles epidemic. I am just saying
:42:30. > :42:33.if it is so good for Angelina Jolie, which we are agreed, to make a
:42:33. > :42:40.public statement, it was an opportunity for a politician to do
:42:40. > :42:47.the same and they did not do it. difference is that Angelina Jolie is
:42:47. > :42:52.an adult, and this was revelation conducted with full consent. The
:42:52. > :42:57.measles epidemic is not analogous. That was a rogue doctor. We like to
:42:57. > :43:00.tease her about Mr Blair. We like a domestic.
:43:01. > :43:03.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because it's
:43:03. > :43:05.Thursday Night Fever night at Annabel's. And after Diane Abbott's
:43:05. > :43:09.claim that we're suffering from a crisis of masculinity, Michael's
:43:09. > :43:13.taken it personally. So, ladies on the dance floor, get ready to part
:43:13. > :43:17.like the red sea, because Tony Portillo really means business. But
:43:17. > :43:19.we leave you tonight with footage to make the heart of every UKIP member