:00:36. > :00:40.of effort. I am not so easily impressed as Diane Abbott. American
:00:40. > :00:43.whistleblower, Edward Snowden, has been a naughty boy and could be
:00:43. > :00:50.facing the cane for divulging national secrets. Emily make less
:00:50. > :00:53.delivers her report card. I was going to tell you what I was
:00:53. > :00:58.thinking but I thought I would write it in an e-mail and you will
:00:58. > :01:03.probably get to hear it quicker that way. Protesting outside the school
:01:03. > :01:08.gates, what is the most effective form of protest? Johnson Sun is
:01:08. > :01:14.handing out the gold stars. I seem to have covered every protest
:01:14. > :01:21.movement since the peasant revolt, when history was current affairs.
:01:21. > :01:31.But now it is time for the this week protest. White Acra come out from
:01:31. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:43.behind the bike shed. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week.
:01:43. > :01:46.And we begin with an apology to any viewers who have stumbled across
:01:46. > :01:49.tonight's show by accident. Because we can only imagine your confusion
:01:49. > :01:52.that in a time of ever deeper cuts and eye-watering belt-tightening,
:01:52. > :01:55.the Government has not followed this week's Greek example and pulled the
:01:55. > :01:57.plug on its bloated state broadcaster. How we have survived
:01:57. > :02:01.when spare bedrooms and disability benefits have been sacrificed on the
:02:01. > :02:04.alter of austerity remains a mystery not just to us but to any licence
:02:04. > :02:05.fee-payer still awake at 11.35 at night. The Greek government
:02:05. > :02:07.justified its cost-cutting by claiming their publicly-funded
:02:07. > :02:17.broadcaster symbolised "an exceptional lack of transparency and
:02:17. > :02:19.
:02:19. > :02:22.incredible extravagance. This ends now". Which is a bit like the way
:02:22. > :02:27.the BBC disposes of senior executives. So spare a thought for
:02:27. > :02:30.those Greeks who have already suffered so much but who can no
:02:31. > :02:33.longer enjoy the best television their nation has to offer and must
:02:33. > :02:34.wave goodbye to The Only Way Is Athens, Later with Nana Mouskouri,
:02:34. > :02:37.The Great Greek Moussaka-Off, Much Later with Nana Mouskouri, Two Pints
:02:37. > :02:40.of Ouzo and a Packet of Green Olives, Too Late for Nana Mouskouri
:02:40. > :02:50.and the big Saturday night favourite, Strictly Come Plate
:02:50. > :02:52.
:02:52. > :02:54.Smashing. Not to mention the inconsolable fans of Michael
:02:54. > :03:04.Portillo, whose latest series, Great Greek Donkey Journeys, has now been
:03:04. > :03:04.
:03:04. > :03:09.cancelled. Although that doesn't exactly sound like a tragedy, Greek
:03:09. > :03:12.or otherwise. Speaking of those who would wither and die without public
:03:12. > :03:17.support, I'm joined tonight by two lovebirds whose romance isn't built
:03:17. > :03:22.to last. Think of them as the Jay Rutland and Tamara Ecclestone of
:03:22. > :03:27.late night political chat. I speak, of course, of #sadmaninajag John
:03:27. > :03:37."Prezza" Prescott. And #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo"
:03:37. > :03:43.
:03:43. > :03:46.Portillo. Your moment of the week? Two moments. One, the government
:03:46. > :03:51.thought it had devised a league table of doctors, surgeons,
:03:51. > :03:57.operating, so the public could see who was killing off patients. But it
:03:57. > :04:00.turns out that surgeons are able to opt out at will. The other is that
:04:00. > :04:03.another �2 million of gagging orders have appeared in the national health
:04:03. > :04:07.service, even though Sir David Nicholson recently appeared at a
:04:07. > :04:10.Commons committee and said he knew nothing about these things. These
:04:10. > :04:14.are orders given to members of staff who are leaving who probably have
:04:14. > :04:20.things to say about patient safety but whose silence is bought by
:04:20. > :04:25.taxpayer's money. It is beyond Orwellian that the NHS seems to have
:04:25. > :04:30.lost its way at least in part in providing service to the public and
:04:30. > :04:35.uses taxpayer's money, intended for the care of patients, to silence
:04:35. > :04:40.people who might tell us what was going on. You could say it was hands
:04:40. > :04:44.of producer interest. At the beginning of the week, Cameron was
:04:44. > :04:52.talking about going to the G8 and dealing with tax avoidance and
:04:52. > :04:56.multinationals. And today, the launching of a Royal Princess ship,
:04:56. > :05:04.that has been done by the Royal Princess, is it, the Duchess of
:05:04. > :05:07.Cambridge, I get the title is wrong. In that sense, two, but what is the
:05:07. > :05:10.connecting? Bermuda, one of our depending islands where the
:05:10. > :05:14.government appoints the Prime Minister, one of the tax avoidance
:05:14. > :05:22.has now said he is not prepared to agree with Cameron. He has lost
:05:22. > :05:26.authority in Parliament, lost in the areas of dependence. They appoint
:05:26. > :05:32.the leader of the majority, and that person becomes the Prime Minister
:05:32. > :05:36.and appoints his own cabinet. like written. You could say that but
:05:36. > :05:41.he has lost the authority in Parliament and here is Bermuda, the
:05:41. > :05:45.Prime Minister appointed by this government, giving him that. I don't
:05:45. > :05:48.know what that is, but it sounds painful!
:05:48. > :05:51.Now, you may have noticed Michael's not looking his normal chipper self.
:05:51. > :05:55.And I don't blame him. There he was, thinking his old school paramour
:05:55. > :06:03.Diane still held a torch for him, even though her, um, high-flying
:06:03. > :06:05.career has since put a stop to their weekly sofa snuggles. But now
:06:05. > :06:09.there's a new Tory in town, with Education Secretary, Michael Gove,
:06:09. > :06:18.declaring his love for Diane, after she'd whispered sweet nothings in
:06:18. > :06:22.his ear about his GCSE reforms. For God's sake, you two, get a room!
:06:22. > :06:24.Some folks, of course, would prefer to pass the sick bucket when it
:06:24. > :06:27.comes to public displays of affection for Mr Gove. So here's
:06:27. > :06:37.journalist and education activist, Fiona Millar with her take of the
:06:37. > :06:57.
:06:57. > :06:59.Gove. Actually, it is very hard because I think he is one of the
:06:59. > :07:02.worst education secretaries we have had for a long time. This week come
:07:02. > :07:08.he unveiled plans for qualification reform, and if you believe the hype
:07:08. > :07:15.it is more back to basics, traditional values, not quite chalk
:07:15. > :07:20.and slake boards, but not far off. He claims that his no coursework
:07:20. > :07:24.final exam GCSEs will end dumbing down and grade inflation and restore
:07:24. > :07:30.eager to the classroom. But if I was marking this piece of work, I would
:07:30. > :07:33.give him a big F for fail. For starters, changing the nature of
:07:33. > :07:36.exams does not necessarily mean standards will be raised. That is
:07:36. > :07:41.more to do with teaching and learning, and these reforms may be
:07:41. > :07:45.setting more children to fail. Raising the bar in the high jump
:07:45. > :07:50.does not necessarily mean everybody will be able to jump over it. Exams
:07:50. > :07:54.are great for some young people, especially if they thrive on memory
:07:54. > :07:58.and recall testing, but they are not right for everybody, which is why we
:07:58. > :08:08.still need teacher assessment and extended project work, which is,
:08:08. > :08:17.
:08:17. > :08:22.after all, what happens at Gove's plans are not really radical
:08:22. > :08:27.reform. They are just tinkering with a redundant system, which is why
:08:27. > :08:31.everyone, from the head of Eton, to the CBI, are questioning whether we
:08:31. > :08:35.need this high-stakes testing at 16, especially when so many young people
:08:35. > :08:44.are going to be staying on in education and training for two more
:08:44. > :08:48.years. So, if you want to be a true revolutionary, Michael Gove, you
:08:48. > :08:50.will cut GCSEs and support the idea of a real English baccalaureate that
:08:50. > :08:57.includes academic and vocational achievement and values things like
:08:57. > :09:01.personal development. This could match the International
:09:01. > :09:05.baccalaureate, which nobody describes as woolly or dumbed down.
:09:05. > :09:15.Only then will our children thrive, flourish and compete on the
:09:15. > :09:16.
:09:16. > :09:21.international stage. From a classroom in London to our
:09:21. > :09:25.own little classroom in Westminster. Welcome back. You have made clear
:09:25. > :09:30.you do not like the exam reforms Michael Gove is bringing in. But do
:09:30. > :09:37.you agree that the present system fails too many children? I think it
:09:37. > :09:41.would be does and it does need to be reformed. Dash-macro it probably
:09:41. > :09:44.does. There is this problem of perverse incentives for schools to
:09:44. > :09:48.behave in certain ways. They focus on certain groups of children at the
:09:48. > :09:55.expense of other groups, and it is not a system that works well for
:09:55. > :09:58.everybody, I don't think. What did you make of the Ofsted research
:09:58. > :10:03.which found that schools were failing to nurture the brightest
:10:03. > :10:06.kids? That is partly a product of the way performance tables work,
:10:07. > :10:11.because they played to the middle. If you ask them to play to a
:10:11. > :10:15.different group, somebody else will suffer. That is one of the problems,
:10:15. > :10:21.which is partly why I think winning fewer exams and to focus more on
:10:21. > :10:27.education, rather than the testing. -- why we need to have fewer exams.
:10:27. > :10:30.There were a lot of exams when I was at school. This is the first time in
:10:30. > :10:36.ten years when none of my children are doing exams. It starts in year
:10:36. > :10:42.nine, ten, and everybody is getting them in for early entry to boost
:10:42. > :10:49.their league table positions. I question whether it is an education,
:10:49. > :10:54.or whether... The CBI have called it an exam treadmill, and I think that
:10:54. > :10:59.is what it is. What do you make of the case that Michael Gove is trying
:10:59. > :11:05.to take us back to a bygone era? do not buy that, although I have
:11:05. > :11:09.disagreed with Fiona less than I thought I was going to. I had come
:11:09. > :11:15.prepared to disagree with her more. I had to make him leave his guns
:11:15. > :11:20.outside the studio! Michael Gove said we had the devaluation and the
:11:20. > :11:24.inflation of grades which had flattered children. I think it is
:11:24. > :11:27.true that what children are being asked at the moment is not demanding
:11:27. > :11:31.enough, to read bits of works are not the whole thing, bits of plays,
:11:31. > :11:37.not the whole play, writing short uses of work rather than essays. It
:11:37. > :11:41.is not demanding enough. Although we used to do these things in the old
:11:41. > :11:44.days, that does not mean it is wrong. It worked rather well. Where
:11:44. > :11:49.I think Fiona is right is that there is something illogical about the
:11:49. > :11:53.present system, which is to examine children at the age of 16 in a
:11:53. > :11:58.fairly academic way. Then they stay on for two years and not all of them
:11:58. > :12:04.will do A-levels and go to university. What happens to the fag
:12:04. > :12:08.end of their education beyond GCSE. More and more, I am attracted to the
:12:08. > :12:13.idea that the proper break point in education is about 14, at which .1
:12:13. > :12:22.group will be going on to academic education but another group may be
:12:22. > :12:27.going on to arts and drama. More vocational. Not just vocational.
:12:27. > :12:30.Some of it will be hand skills, but some of it will be things like
:12:31. > :12:33.media, arts and crafts and so on. Children are different, and at some
:12:33. > :12:38.point you're going to have to provide them with different
:12:38. > :12:44.institutions of education, of equal status but leading to different
:12:44. > :12:54.aims. The aged at which to do that is not 11, as it used to be, nor 16,
:12:54. > :12:55.
:12:55. > :13:04.as the GCSE would propose. John, do you agree with Diane Abbott, your
:13:04. > :13:10.sister in the Labour Party? sister? I think he means comrades.
:13:10. > :13:14.They have given that up. She is one of your sisters in the Labour Party.
:13:14. > :13:17.Brotherly love. Do you agree that rigorous educational qualifications
:13:17. > :13:24.are even more important for kids from working-class backgrounds who
:13:24. > :13:28.do not have any other advantage? are a -- faced with the question
:13:28. > :13:33.Fiona has given us. The argument that goes on in the comprehends it
:13:33. > :13:41.is. To listen to someone today talking about this report was almost
:13:41. > :13:44.dumbing down the whole contents of education. But I also fear that the
:13:44. > :13:48.argument about going for the brightest or not, it is the old
:13:48. > :13:52.argument of streaming, which was at the heart of comprehensive
:13:52. > :13:58.education. Can you deal with them all? What is the answer to my West
:13:58. > :14:07.German? I am not only responding to you, because you are not the only
:14:07. > :14:11.one here. I think the emphasis on examination is too far. I think it
:14:11. > :14:18.should be more about education. Diane was talking about, let's make
:14:18. > :14:21.sure we get bright kids brighter, using the tag of working class. She
:14:21. > :14:29.did not put her kids into the working-class education. We are
:14:29. > :14:33.talking about state education, not the private one. Her point, if I can
:14:33. > :14:37.get you to address it, which may be a mission too far. Her point was
:14:37. > :14:41.that, if you come into life with very few advantages, you don't have
:14:41. > :14:47.parents with lot of books at home, you haven't got social capital, you
:14:47. > :14:51.haven't got contacts in the right places, a rigorous exam
:14:51. > :14:56.qualification is even more important to you as an ordinary working class
:14:57. > :15:00.kid than it is to the middle class? I'm asking if you agree or disagree?
:15:00. > :15:05.No, no, no. The achievement is important. I found in my own area
:15:05. > :15:09.where we had the comprehensive argument in Hull found teachers were
:15:09. > :15:13.more concerned at doing the broad education instead of guaranteeing
:15:13. > :15:19.the fact that a working class kid should be able to get an A-level
:15:19. > :15:24.opportunity. What did you make of Diane's intervention? I don't think
:15:24. > :15:29.exams equate with the rigorous education necessarily. We ought to
:15:29. > :15:33.be talking about the education. There are in forms of assessment and
:15:33. > :15:37.should be all rigorous. We should talk about what goes on in the
:15:37. > :15:42.classroom. But Diane's point is, unless you have a rigorous exam, the
:15:42. > :15:46.person from the working class background cannot demonstrate he or
:15:46. > :15:50.she has achieved a rigorous standard. Nobody's arguing against
:15:50. > :15:54.rigorous exams. My point is that they are not enough on their own.
:15:54. > :15:58.You need different forms of assessment and they are not right
:15:59. > :16:06.for every child and you don't need the high range of tests at 16. You
:16:06. > :16:11.need a final qualification at 18. I'm not arguing against rigour.
:16:11. > :16:17.is arguing against rigour? I don't know any teachers saying that.
:16:17. > :16:21.glad you said that. The argument against rigour has driven out
:16:21. > :16:29.education for the last 40 years. people sit down and say let's
:16:29. > :16:34.created a dumb down system? They do. They sit down and say they shouldn't
:16:34. > :16:38.be given aspirations beyond their capability. That's absolute rubbish.
:16:39. > :16:41.That's what the Ofsted report says today. It showed that certain groups
:16:41. > :16:44.of childrenlet haven't been stretches as much as they should
:16:44. > :16:47.have been. They've been asked by your Government and my Government to
:16:47. > :16:51.focus on a particular group of pupils. That's what they've done.
:16:51. > :16:57.Very successfully. The certain group is the brightest group and it's in
:16:57. > :17:02.about 70 or 80% of schools. A big group. The incentive put before
:17:02. > :17:06.schools has been to focus on this borderline group. That's what
:17:06. > :17:09.they've done very well. That's what's happened. Some have suffered
:17:09. > :17:15.as a result of that. We need a system that allows all children to
:17:15. > :17:19.progress at the appropriate rate. Let's take it for granted you don't
:17:19. > :17:24.like the school's policy from either side. Can you tell us what Labour's
:17:24. > :17:27.school boy sill is? I haven't a clue and I would like them to adopt
:17:27. > :17:33.something like this final qualification which is what happens
:17:33. > :17:39.in most places in the world. They have a graduation system at 18, not
:17:39. > :17:43.16. The argument was, let's have new buildings, that's what Labour did.
:17:43. > :17:48.We built wonderful comprehensives but did nothing about the education
:17:48. > :17:53.inside them. We had secondary modern school children alongside the
:17:53. > :17:57.grammar schools and the teachers corn traited on the brighter ones.
:17:57. > :18:00.School respect like that now. have run out of time on this. Is
:18:00. > :18:09.Michael Gove a pevential future leader of the Conservatives?
:18:10. > :18:15.course. He is. -- a potential future lead of the Conservatives? Labour
:18:15. > :18:21.will be in power for many years. Thank you for coming on. It's so
:18:21. > :18:24.late that so many with a grudge against The One Show are going to
:18:24. > :18:30.turn up here at any moment. Stick with us because waiting in the wings
:18:30. > :18:33.ready to liberate our studio from the television Taliban, the BBC's
:18:33. > :18:37.World Affairs Editor, John Simpson. He's here to talk about the power of
:18:37. > :18:42.protest. Don't forget, if you would like to be spied on by the US
:18:42. > :18:45.national security agency, you can always follow us opt Twitter,
:18:45. > :18:55.Fleecebook and totally unsecure everybody can see what you are
:18:55. > :18:56.
:18:56. > :19:03.looking at interweb. We all like to keep secrets, like John Simpson
:19:03. > :19:07.drives a pink Honda Jazz or that Michael's quiff is great. How much
:19:07. > :19:13.does the world know about you? One former intelligence contractor
:19:13. > :19:18.hasiblied the whistle and accused the US Government of systematically
:19:18. > :19:28.receiving phone and web data. We are on the story and so is the BBC's
:19:28. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:44.Emily Maitlis. This is a round-up of It's Andrew Neil. We said we'd never
:19:44. > :19:48.speak again. But I need you. I need you. This Week is the gnawings's
:19:48. > :19:54.most powerful political intelligence-gathering operation and
:19:54. > :19:58.the free world depends on you saying yes. You owe your country this much.
:19:58. > :20:05.Andrew, how could you? You promised. I've made a new life for myself now
:20:05. > :20:12.and I've got a wife and kids. I've started again in Kensal Rise. I mean
:20:12. > :20:22.Chile. Please... Don't let me do this. I'll through in a bottle of
:20:22. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:40.Blue Nun. OK then, but make sure I wonder what Wordsworth would have
:20:40. > :20:44.made of the cloud of 2013? Hardly lonely but stuffed with a gazillion
:20:45. > :20:49.bits of information about all of us pretty much all of the time, telling
:20:49. > :20:54.the State exactly what it needs to know.
:20:55. > :20:59.One man dvent much like the sound of that. Edward snowden created what
:20:59. > :21:02.whistleblowers before him called the most important disclosure of
:21:02. > :21:06.all-time -- one man didn't like that. He told the public what most
:21:06. > :21:11.of us feared but didn't want to believe, that every step of the way
:21:11. > :21:16.is being monitored by big Government and even bigger business. It could
:21:16. > :21:20.be rendered by the CIA, I could have people coming after me or their
:21:20. > :21:24.third parties, they work closely with other nations, or they could
:21:24. > :21:27.pay off the tri-Yads. What makes a man do that? Even a pole-dancing
:21:27. > :21:32.girlfriend who was foolish enough to say before all this happened that
:21:32. > :21:39.life felt a little boring, wasn't enough to talk him down. All this
:21:39. > :21:43.put a lot of pressure on the UK. Had any laws been circumvented? I wish
:21:43. > :21:48.to be absolutely clear that this accusation is baseless. Any data
:21:48. > :21:53.obtained by us from the United States involving UK nationals is
:21:53. > :21:57.subject to proper UK statutory controls and safeguards.
:21:57. > :22:01.It's funny how often people say if you are not guilty you have got
:22:01. > :22:04.nothing to worry about. Bit like that chestnut, don't put anything in
:22:04. > :22:07.an e-mail that you wouldn't want to see on the frovent Daily Mail. I'm
:22:07. > :22:11.pretty confident I've never put anything in an e-mail that I've
:22:11. > :22:16.wanted to see on the front of the Daily Mail. But it misses the point.
:22:16. > :22:22.In this day and age, our virtual identity is as real as our physical
:22:22. > :22:26.presence, it's just who we are. You really want to get the true
:22:26. > :22:31.picture of a story, you need a high vantage point.
:22:31. > :22:36.The police made swift work of arresting one agent provocateur
:22:37. > :22:40.raising his safe house for a group of G8 protesters. The PM was
:22:41. > :22:46.preparing to steam forth to use a Starbucks analogy to the G8 next
:22:46. > :22:54.week to save the world from tax avoiders. It's that pesky little
:22:54. > :23:00.word "aggressive" that creates complications. Is an ISA aggressive?
:23:00. > :23:06.Al Gore, probably not. Is duty-free perfume aggressive? Grrr. Just
:23:06. > :23:10.doesn't feel right does it? What point does the Chancellor really
:23:10. > :23:13.think you are going a bit too far? It's this Government that's putting
:23:13. > :23:18.aggressive tax avoidance at the heart of the G8 agenda and what do
:23:18. > :23:25.we hear this week from the Labour Party? They give tax avoidness
:23:25. > :23:28.advice to donors. That is what they have been doing. �700,000 of tax
:23:29. > :23:35.avoided because of what Labour advised their donor to do. So let me
:23:35. > :23:39.challenge them. Will you give the money back? Talking of giving back
:23:39. > :23:46.the money, have you ever paused to wonder what by mutual agreement
:23:46. > :23:49.sounds like? Does it, for example, sound luke this. It should be led by
:23:49. > :23:53.someone who sees it as a beginning or not as an end. Or perhaps this.
:23:53. > :23:58.I'm content with the board's perspective on this. There's no
:23:58. > :24:03.fight or anything like this. Or even this. I hope that I will leave RBS a
:24:03. > :24:07.lot better than I found it. City fennel Hester insists he wasn't
:24:07. > :24:12.pushed but neither were his hands glued to the desk. He leaves RBS
:24:12. > :24:17.half way through the process, a job half done -- Stephen Hester. He
:24:17. > :24:23.takes with him some �4. 5 million. What he won't take any more is the
:24:23. > :24:30.public outrage over whether or not he should be allowed to keep it.
:24:30. > :24:38.Of course, you don't need on I havisation at GCHQ when you have the
:24:38. > :24:46.GCSE to confuse you, sorry, that should have read E-bacc, dieback,
:24:46. > :24:52.sorry, what? Does he agree with me that an emphasis on core academics
:24:52. > :25:00.is not argued contrary to the interest of black minority ethnic
:25:00. > :25:04.children? The honourable lady's absolutely right. I'm in love.
:25:04. > :25:08.And as we speak, there are hearts being carved into the green benches
:25:08. > :25:14.of the Commons with a pen knife, but, beware, the honey trap, Mr
:25:14. > :25:24.Gove. Anyway that,'s me, done, signing out. Over and out. Or, as we
:25:24. > :25:24.
:25:24. > :25:30.say in the spy business, Roger. I mean, Andrew.
:25:30. > :25:38.She gave away my codename! Emily mately on assignment deep under
:25:38. > :25:43.cover. You never know when we might see her again. Miranda Greening.
:25:43. > :25:48.Welcome back. Hello.This story on the prism and the US authorities
:25:48. > :25:52.working with the British authorities on looking at our commune cautions,
:25:52. > :25:58.it seems to be dwieeding us. People think it's important or they don't
:25:58. > :26:02.give a damn. Which side are you on? I think it's really important but I
:26:02. > :26:08.think there is a kind of long-term inevitability that everything that
:26:08. > :26:12.we put on e-mail and Twitter and everything else, Facebook, will be
:26:12. > :26:18.kept and accessible. It's clearly happening in the United substitutes
:26:18. > :26:23.and sooner or later, the Government will bring forward a communications
:26:23. > :26:29.Bill and get it through. It's not the same as accessing data but it's
:26:29. > :26:34.the same as keeping it. John? it very difficult to answer it. I
:26:34. > :26:38.don't like the idea that everything we are doing... I don't do e-mails
:26:38. > :26:42.anyway. You do social media.That's right and they can pick that up and
:26:42. > :26:46.that's pretty open really. That is about the social media, everybody's
:26:46. > :26:49.reading it and dealing with it. It's a question about Governments getting
:26:49. > :26:52.the intelligence and the kind of technology to be automobile to copy
:26:52. > :26:57.everything. That's got to make you feel uneasy and you have got to
:26:57. > :27:02.really try and deal with the difficulty of controlling in some
:27:02. > :27:05.form, perhaps controlling's not the word, but saying to those doing it,
:27:05. > :27:08.you can only do certain things, not just saying to us, don't do the
:27:08. > :27:12.e-mail and they won't be able to copy it, so I find it a dilemma.
:27:12. > :27:15.It's almost inevitable this process of connection is going to continue.
:27:16. > :27:19.That's why we went partly for the Freedom of Information Bill. Even
:27:19. > :27:25.that's more limited frankly. Blair says he now regrets that.
:27:25. > :27:29.Miranda? The thing is, when the Internet started, it was a sort of
:27:29. > :27:32.libertarian fantasy, wasn't it, this idea that there was a parallel world
:27:32. > :27:37.in which there were no rules o everything Government. What we have
:27:37. > :27:41.realised is that what happens on the Internet has a real effect on the
:27:41. > :27:45.real world so there has to be rules brought in. However, in America,
:27:45. > :27:50.obviously, this is principally something that's been happening
:27:50. > :27:54.through the US security system. They have very authoritarian security and
:27:54. > :28:00.a slightly paranoia mindset about Government being against you as an
:28:00. > :28:07.individual. We need to be careful in the UK not to import that poll arty
:28:07. > :28:09.because there has to be a sensible way. Fuad up the things the Obama
:28:09. > :28:15.administration's done, if this would have been Bush, there would have
:28:16. > :28:20.been outcry. The harassment, the rounding up limb of the Associated
:28:20. > :28:25.Press journalists and the horizon, I mean I'm a horizon subscriber in New
:28:25. > :28:28.York, everyone's there and they get their records. Now there's the
:28:28. > :28:34.suggestion, we have not seen evidence, but the suggestion that
:28:34. > :28:38.they can go on any expedition they want from all the major Internet
:28:38. > :28:42.service providers is remarkable. President Obama refuses to engage
:28:42. > :28:46.with the subject and says, it would be interesting to have a national
:28:46. > :28:51.debate about it. And sending drones everywhere at the same time.
:28:51. > :28:58.Absolutely. Reading the intelligence reports about Iraq, you couldn't
:28:58. > :29:03.believe them. It was all can chitchat about what somebody told
:29:03. > :29:06.somebody else. We made decisions about Iraq based on intelligence
:29:06. > :29:10.that frankly wasn't really acceptable. There is a fundamental
:29:10. > :29:15.problem, isn't there, Michael, that the changing nature of terrorism
:29:15. > :29:20.which we saw with our own 7/7 and in Boston and we even saw again with
:29:20. > :29:25.this attempt to blow up the EDL rally. Rather than the plots now
:29:25. > :29:33.being done in far away caves, you can monitor people going back and
:29:33. > :29:39.forward to strange parts in Tora Bora, they are all sitting in back
:29:39. > :29:45.kitchens in this country and plotting on social media? The most
:29:45. > :29:49.persuasive way of putting it is that if annencest incident, a bombing has
:29:49. > :29:53.occurred, a terrible one, and there's a group involved, and they
:29:53. > :29:57.plotted the thing on social made ya, on the Internet or whatever, but you
:29:57. > :30:02.didn't pick it up before, if that day that's been kept, you can go
:30:02. > :30:06.back and trace what was happening and possibly avoid the next
:30:06. > :30:09.catastrophe. If all that's been destroyed by the companies, that the
:30:09. > :30:13.Government has no possibility of going back and looking at the data,
:30:13. > :30:23.because it wasn't kept, and that is, in this country anyway what the
:30:23. > :30:27.
:30:27. > :30:33.Government is proposing, that all Secretaries say we need to get on
:30:33. > :30:37.with this bill. I can go back to when we were talking about bringing
:30:37. > :30:40.in the cameras, and people were complaining. Most people who have
:30:40. > :30:44.seen it used in criminal situations, difficult ones, where
:30:44. > :30:47.you pick up the picture and the prosecution comes from that camera.
:30:48. > :30:54.Public opinion is now much more disposed to accepting the cameras,
:30:54. > :30:58.from which there are picked is available, and not so hostile.
:30:58. > :31:05.the use of data, it is fear, isn't it, because there were previous
:31:05. > :31:08.powers used while local councils for strange purposes. Whether you were
:31:08. > :31:15.in the right catchment area for schools. There have to be safeguards
:31:15. > :31:23.as to how the new laws are replies -- applied to protect people.
:31:24. > :31:28.this report on the Lib Dem party, and it is a pretty damning report on
:31:29. > :31:34.sexual harassment in the Lib Dem party. Do you recognise it? Has this
:31:34. > :31:40.been your experience? Have you known that this has been going on? It has
:31:40. > :31:48.not been my experience at all. you known of other colleagues,
:31:48. > :31:52.friends, who have been victims of it? I have not, to be honest, but
:31:53. > :31:59.this report has looked at a lot of examples over 20 years, and it has
:31:59. > :32:03.led to very clear recommendations about how to turn a party which was
:32:03. > :32:08.until recently a very small party into odd an organisation with proper
:32:08. > :32:12.procedures to protect people from things like bullying and harassment.
:32:12. > :32:19.You were very worried about Nick Clegg's was issued on this. You
:32:19. > :32:24.thought he was in grave peril over this. -- his position on this.
:32:24. > :32:27.people were very unhappy about how the hierarchy dealt with problems in
:32:27. > :32:35.the ranks, particularly in the relationship between staff and
:32:35. > :32:42.volunteers, etc. Low level is the phrase, which is hard to pin down.
:32:42. > :32:45.Very much so. I assume people in the Conservatives and the Labour Party
:32:45. > :32:49.are happy that this has happened to the Liberal Democrat party because
:32:49. > :32:54.there will be lessons from -- for everyone in politics from this. It
:32:54. > :32:57.is hard to turn these things into organisations which take
:32:57. > :33:06.responsibility is to start seriously in this area. Mick Clegg has said he
:33:06. > :33:13.will take the recommendations on board immediately. -- Nick Clegg.
:33:13. > :33:19.has no choice. Absolutely. She has said it was haphazard and there was
:33:19. > :33:23.no conspiracy or cover-up. It has not made that much of an impact. It
:33:23. > :33:30.has not been massive news. A quick question for you, John, on your
:33:30. > :33:34.leader. Has he gone through a rough patch at the moment? We are going
:33:34. > :33:37.through a change and challenging traditional thinking in the Labour
:33:37. > :33:45.Party, universe a la tea being one. Are we ditching it, or making
:33:45. > :33:48.adjustments and changes? Ed Miliband has now come out and said, I want to
:33:48. > :33:53.say this. He will get himself in a lot of trouble, and the same with
:33:54. > :33:57.the referendum on Europe. But he is making decisions. We are going
:33:57. > :34:01.through the process of change from a man who was originally saying, tell
:34:01. > :34:04.me what you want, to making decisions as leader and getting on
:34:04. > :34:10.with it, and the difficulties in a political party saying some of the
:34:10. > :34:18.things that he is. What did you make of Stephen Hester's departure from
:34:18. > :34:22.RBS? Anyone who works for an organisation 82% owned by the
:34:22. > :34:27.government needs his head testing, because it always ends like this. He
:34:27. > :34:31.was told on the one hand to get RBS back to robust health as quickly as
:34:31. > :34:35.possible, and on the other hand was being told RBS must lend to people
:34:35. > :34:42.nobody else is willing to lend to. These things are incompatible and
:34:42. > :34:47.not surprisingly, eventually he has torn off his own head. And he only
:34:47. > :34:53.has �5 million to put it back on! And he is assuring us that the bank
:34:53. > :34:56.is getting back to normal business, that is what worries me. The fact
:34:56. > :35:01.that he has gone today and �1.5 billion has come off the share
:35:02. > :35:10.price, I would remind you that many small people own those shares they
:35:10. > :35:15.have gone down today because he has gone. The British people own them.
:35:15. > :35:18.Now, we're always ready to man the barricades here on This Week. No-one
:35:18. > :35:21.more so than Choo Choo, who's spent the past week showing his support
:35:21. > :35:30.for the overheated train drivers of Sweden by joining them in their
:35:30. > :35:34.skirt-wearing protest. His sartorial choices have always caused a stir in
:35:34. > :35:36.the This Week office, though we still need some convincing that a
:35:36. > :35:40.blue and yellow puffball is quite what the Swedish train drivers had
:35:40. > :35:45.in mind. So what is the most effective form of protest, beyond
:35:45. > :35:55.Michael getting his pins out? We decided to find out and put protest
:35:55. > :35:59.
:35:59. > :36:03.in this week's Spotlight. As Nelson Mandela's health continues
:36:03. > :36:06.to be a cause for concern, the world holds its breath for a man who
:36:06. > :36:14.showed that the most effective form of protest can also be the most
:36:14. > :36:17.dignified. Peaceful protest in Istanbul has spiralled into
:36:17. > :36:21.nationwide demonstrations against the elected Turkish government,
:36:21. > :36:26.proving that people power is still a force to be reckoned with, even in a
:36:27. > :36:31.democracy. In the UK, anti-capitalist 's clashed violently
:36:31. > :36:35.with police, as raids on organised activists were carried out ahead of
:36:35. > :36:40.next week's G8 meeting. So what is the best way to get your voice heard
:36:40. > :36:43.if you feel you are not being listened to? Caroline Lucas tried to
:36:44. > :36:49.make yourself heard this week, proving that you do not need a mob
:36:49. > :36:52.to make a powerful point. Parliament has ruled that you can say what you
:36:52. > :36:58.think, but not wear what you think. It left the Green party MP looking
:36:58. > :37:00.bemused. I was going to say it strikes me as an irony that this
:37:00. > :37:04.T-shirt is regarded as an inappropriate thing to wearing this
:37:04. > :37:08.house, whereas apparently it is appropriate for this kind of
:37:08. > :37:14.newspaper to be available to buy in eight different outlets on the
:37:14. > :37:18.Palace of Westminster estate. May be actions speak louder than
:37:18. > :37:21.words, without I rate violin player proving that button may not have
:37:21. > :37:31.much talent, but it still knows who deserves to have an excellent at
:37:31. > :37:44.
:37:44. > :37:48.to resist. John Simpson is with us. Nice to be here. Let's begin with
:37:48. > :37:53.the protest in Turkey. For most of us, it is hard to know what it is
:37:53. > :37:58.about and what success would mean for the protesters. It is supposed
:37:58. > :38:06.to be about gardens and parks and things. But, of course, it is not. I
:38:06. > :38:13.am sorry about my voice. Not at all. When you have big issues going on in
:38:13. > :38:18.a country, in this case and Islamist, moderate Islamist, who
:38:18. > :38:25.seems to be pushing Turkey away from the old ways that it has had ever
:38:25. > :38:32.since the 1920s, then it is these things that tend to come out. The
:38:32. > :38:37.trouble is, the demonstrators have done rather well in keeping
:38:37. > :38:43.ongoing. And, of course, the cops have put themselves completely
:38:43. > :38:51.beyond the pale by doing all the wrong things and squirting tear gas
:38:51. > :38:58.at young women. The picture of the Lady in red. Beautiful, and behaved
:38:58. > :39:03.in a very dignified way. Exactly the wrong thing to do. I am right in
:39:03. > :39:07.thinking that not all of the most iconic protests, the most famous
:39:07. > :39:14.ones in modern times, are actually successful. I was thinking of
:39:14. > :39:17.Tiananmen Square, which was not successful. If you are willing, as a
:39:18. > :39:25.government, to use absolute ultimate Force and just mow down people in
:39:25. > :39:30.their hundreds, as happened there, then you are going to probably win.
:39:30. > :39:36.It is all a matter of who has the moral advantage, really. What you
:39:36. > :39:42.need to do is constant, if you are a demonstrator, you have to constantly
:39:42. > :39:46.try to egg on the cock 's, to behave badly. Because then public opinion
:39:46. > :39:55.shifts. -- the police. If you are the one who behaves badly, forget
:39:55. > :39:58.it, especially in this country, where any kind of violence is
:39:58. > :40:03.regarded as an advertisement that you are doing the wrong thing,
:40:03. > :40:09.self-defeating. Whereas in France, for instance, that fantastic moment
:40:09. > :40:17.which makes everybody's heart beat faster, when somebody turns up at
:40:17. > :40:24.the demo and he has got a crowbar, and he prizes up a cobblestone,
:40:24. > :40:32.lifts it up. That puts him in the direct line down from the French
:40:32. > :40:38.Revolution. And he is on the side of French history. If they used Ta
:40:38. > :40:45.Macon the roads in France, no more protest. In a sense, what you are
:40:45. > :40:52.saying is that for protest to work, to be successful, the people they
:40:52. > :40:55.are up against should not be too ruthless. For example, Mr Gorbachev,
:40:55. > :41:00.when the protests broke out in Eastern Europe, a more ruthless
:41:00. > :41:05.ruler would have sent in the tanks. Gorbachev would not do that. When
:41:05. > :41:13.the British were faced with Gandhi, if he had been against the Nazis, he
:41:14. > :41:17.would not have lasted as long. is true. There is a balance between
:41:17. > :41:21.the Force you can use and the force that people are prepared to use
:41:21. > :41:29.against you. At the trouble is, I was thinking a moment ago, who has
:41:29. > :41:32.been successful? Well, in the short run, not an awful lot of these
:41:32. > :41:42.protest movements have been. You are right, in India it certainly was.
:41:42. > :41:52.
:41:53. > :42:00.But China is a very good example. want, moderate is a good word, they
:42:00. > :42:05.will be pretty tough, if the result does not go the way they want it to
:42:05. > :42:11.go, the way they think it ought to go. Do protests in this country have
:42:11. > :42:14.a real impact on the government? Putting aside Margaret Thatcher, I
:42:14. > :42:20.always got the impression that the poll tax riots in Trafalgar Square
:42:20. > :42:27.in particular on our TV on that night, had quite a shaking effect on
:42:27. > :42:31.the government at the time. But I am from the outside. You were inside.
:42:31. > :42:34.In that case, it was a combination, as with most revolutions, of
:42:34. > :42:38.different interests coming together. What really shook Margaret
:42:38. > :42:41.Thatcher and brought her down was not protest in Trafalgar Square but
:42:41. > :42:44.Conservative members of Parliament who did used they would lose their
:42:44. > :42:50.seats over the issue and decided to get rid of her. Thinking about
:42:50. > :42:55.revolutions, protests more generally, what happens again and
:42:56. > :42:58.again is that the initial protest might succeed in dislodging an
:42:58. > :43:02.administration, because it loses its nerve, but that is only the first
:43:02. > :43:06.phase. The French Revolution went to lots of different phases. The
:43:07. > :43:09.Russian Revolution went through lots of phases. The recent ones in Libya
:43:09. > :43:15.and Egypt have gone through different phases, so you never know
:43:15. > :43:24.who the ultimate victor will be. has such a mild mannered chap like
:43:24. > :43:28.yourself been the photos -- the focus of so many protests? Can I
:43:28. > :43:34.follow what has been said? Johns said you do not win, but you do.
:43:34. > :43:40.Tiananmen Square, the hardliners may have pushed at Tiananmen Square but
:43:40. > :43:43.it brought forward another leadership to avoid that. I was in
:43:43. > :43:50.semen's strikes, and we used to lose every time but it changed the
:43:50. > :43:58.management. You make changes in the long run and that is what is
:43:59. > :44:03.important about protest. It seems to me that what John says is absolutely
:44:03. > :44:13.right. In the long run. But I will tell you the best protest I ever saw
:44:13. > :44:13.
:44:14. > :44:20.was in Prague in 1989. We had all the different ways of ending Soviet
:44:20. > :44:28.control in Eastern Europe. But what happened in Prague was that people
:44:28. > :44:31.just went out in a stolid way, and they stood there and protested and
:44:31. > :44:36.the police did not know what to do. They would come back the next night
:44:36. > :44:41.until finally, that rotten, horrible old system did not know what to do
:44:41. > :44:47.so they went home. Not one window was broken. Magnificent.
:44:47. > :44:49.That's your lot for tonight folks. But not for us, because it's
:44:49. > :44:53.Desperate Divorcees night at Annabel's, and Wendy Deng's put a
:44:53. > :44:56.few quid behind the bar to let us all toast her divorce from Rupert
:44:56. > :45:00.Murdoch. I'm told the woman who took her Nigerian husband to the cleaners
:45:00. > :45:03.in the courts this week will also be there. So I don't think we men will
:45:03. > :45:06.have to put our hands in our pockets. But we leave you tonight
:45:06. > :45:09.with news that Mrs Speaker, Silly Bercow, now facing a hefty legal
:45:09. > :45:11.bill, following her Twitter court case with Alastair McAlpine, has