:00:14. > :00:18.Fireworks and gunfire in Cairo, as the military oust the elected
:00:18. > :00:28.president. Egyptian-born comedy producer Ash Atallah looks to the
:00:28. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:33.streets, not the skies. This revolution may have been explosive,
:00:33. > :00:36.but the fuse that list it was people's everyday concerns.
:00:36. > :00:38.High explosives and short fuses in Westminster, as David Cameron fires
:00:38. > :00:48.a rocket at Ed Miliband. Five Live presenter Victoria Derbyshire is
:00:48. > :00:50.
:00:50. > :00:52.watching the display. It was quite a spectacular router witness, but did
:00:52. > :00:55.all the punters go home happy? And sparkling performances at
:00:55. > :00:58.Glastonbury, but will a rock star central banker be the answer to the
:00:58. > :01:08.UK's economic problems? Top business firecracker Stuart Rose lights the
:01:08. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.touch paper and stands well back. The leader is important but it is
:01:12. > :01:22.what is behind the leader that is really important, and that is the
:01:22. > :01:24.
:01:24. > :01:27.people in any business. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a
:01:27. > :01:32.lonely beacon of illiberal bias and prejudice shining through the
:01:32. > :01:36.wishy-washy BBC metrosexual fog. Yet you join us tonight in existential
:01:36. > :01:40.peril, in which even such basic liberties as the right to drink Blue
:01:40. > :01:44.Nun on the job are in peril. Because we are under attack from an
:01:44. > :01:49.all-powerful enemy within. Remember them? Whose tentacles, according to
:01:49. > :01:52.Call-Me-Dave at PMQs yesterday, are spreading everywhere. I'm talking of
:01:52. > :01:55.course about the dastardly Unite trade union, and its mission to
:01:55. > :01:57.control the world. It's already taken control of the commanding
:01:57. > :02:03.heights of a little known but vital institution of the British
:02:03. > :02:05.establishment known as the Falkirk Constituency Labour Party. There are
:02:06. > :02:10.also reports that it's infiltrated the commanding lows of Newsnight,
:02:10. > :02:13.though since nobody's seen it recently it's hard to tell. And, of
:02:13. > :02:17.course, we already know it had the power to force an unimpressive Ed
:02:17. > :02:21.Miliband on an unimpressed Parliamentary Labour Party. So it
:02:21. > :02:24.was only a matter of time before they came for This Week. As of 7pm
:02:24. > :02:27.last night, around the time the military coup was kicking off in
:02:27. > :02:29.Cairo, and no doubt Unite was behind that too, Commandante Len McClusky
:02:29. > :02:32.became personally responsible for booking all of tonight's guests,
:02:32. > :02:38.thinking up all of tonight's questions, writing all of tonight's
:02:38. > :02:41.scripts, and choosing all of tonight's wardrobe. Though when he
:02:41. > :02:49.saw the shirt-watch twins, even he had second thoughts about the
:02:49. > :02:52.takeover. Anyway, welcome to Unite This Week. And speaking of muppets
:02:52. > :02:57.on strings, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men stuck in terminal
:02:57. > :03:00.decline. Think of them as the Edward Snowden and President Morsi of late
:03:00. > :03:10.night political chat. I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ"
:03:10. > :03:14.
:03:14. > :03:21.Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo. Your moment of
:03:21. > :03:25.the week? Talking of airport terminal decline, President Evo
:03:25. > :03:29.Morales this week set out from Moscow to go back to his homeland of
:03:29. > :03:33.Bolivia and found himself put down in Bolivia because France, Spain and
:03:33. > :03:38.Italy would not allow him to fly through their airspace because they
:03:38. > :03:43.thought he might have Mr Edward Snowden on board. This seemed to me
:03:44. > :03:47.a perfectly reasonable suspicion, since Bolivia and Ecuador and
:03:47. > :03:50.Venezuelan are three posturing countries that keep playing to the
:03:50. > :03:57.anti-American gallery around the world, and they like to tease the
:03:57. > :04:01.world that they might give refuge to Mr Edward Snowden. It has been met,
:04:01. > :04:09.the downing of his plane in Vienna, with the most amazing outcry from
:04:09. > :04:15.South America. The president of Venezuelan has said it is -- the
:04:15. > :04:21.president of Argentina, not a great friend of ours, she kicked up a
:04:21. > :04:28.great fuss. I must say, I found the fact that he had to land in Vienna
:04:28. > :04:31.pretty amusing. It has tickled your fancy, hasn't it? Mine is the news
:04:31. > :04:38.about the reopening of the case into the disappearance of Madeleine
:04:38. > :04:44.McCann. The Portuguese had all but closed the file. The family paid to
:04:44. > :04:46.get the Portuguese file and page to get it translated. Then they had to
:04:46. > :04:52.convince the UK police to investigate. That has very rarely
:04:52. > :04:55.happened. And not just our own police force, which would have been
:04:55. > :05:02.Leicestershire, which is the petition, wherever they live, but
:05:02. > :05:07.the Metropolitan police force. for out of the Home Office budget.
:05:07. > :05:11.This was a British girl missing and it seemed everyone had given up.
:05:11. > :05:16.They spent two years having a review, and now they are going to
:05:16. > :05:20.reopen the investigation and it looks a very positive step forward.
:05:20. > :05:23.Remarkable. She might still be alive. We shall see.
:05:23. > :05:26.Now, it's just over two years since the Arab Spring reached Egypt,
:05:26. > :05:28.leading to the fall of a dictator, the liberation of the Muslim
:05:28. > :05:31.Brotherhood, and the election of the first democratic leader in the
:05:31. > :05:34.nation's 5,000 year history, who happened to come from said Muslim
:05:34. > :05:37.Brotherhood. But only a year after Mohamed Morsi won his presidential
:05:37. > :05:39.majority, he now finds himself, and many of his supporters, under house
:05:39. > :05:49.arrest, the military dictating political events and the country on
:05:49. > :05:53.a knife-edge. So where now for the Arab world's biggest power, and what
:05:53. > :06:03.will it take to keep the peace? We turned to Egyptian-born television
:06:03. > :06:22.
:06:22. > :06:26.producer Ash Atalla. This is his the streets of Egypt this week. The
:06:26. > :06:30.country's first elected president thrown out by the Army after
:06:30. > :06:40.millions of Egyptians took to the streets in protest. Impressive
:06:40. > :06:41.
:06:41. > :06:46.scenes, yes, but perhaps not such a big surprise. I was born in Cairo,
:06:46. > :06:51.and I still have family there who I visit. When I was last in town, you
:06:51. > :07:00.could sense things were bubbling over. Tensions were rising and talk
:07:00. > :07:03.of a second revolution was in the air. The price of food is going up,
:07:03. > :07:07.transport is gridlocked and rubbish goes uncollected. Driving around
:07:07. > :07:13.Cairo, buildings are crumbling and there is a feeling of lawlessness in
:07:13. > :07:16.the air. It is a breakdown of society. If my relatively
:07:16. > :07:22.middle-class family are finding it hard, who knows how the rest are
:07:22. > :07:25.managing. The former President Morsi was thrown out after only one year
:07:25. > :07:31.in power, so it is not fair to blame him for everything, but his
:07:31. > :07:33.priorities were wrong. He spent too much time trying to force through
:07:33. > :07:41.Islamic law and not enough time worrying about the economy and
:07:41. > :07:44.tourism. And whilst people are calling what happened this week and
:07:44. > :07:49.military coup, I don't think that tells the whole story. In this
:07:49. > :07:54.case, the military were not acting in isolation. Instead, they were
:07:54. > :07:58.responding to the millions of people on the streets. Yes, President Morsi
:07:58. > :08:04.was democratically elected, but having been so, he betrayed the
:08:04. > :08:09.needs of the people and followed too narrow an agenda. You cannot turn
:08:09. > :08:13.around the country like Egypt in a year, maybe not even five. But until
:08:13. > :08:20.that Acis gets sorted out, I believe Egypt will remain a restless place.
:08:20. > :08:23.-- until the basic gets sorted. The next leader needs to sort out the
:08:23. > :08:28.streets, create jobs, and until they do so, the people of Egypt should
:08:28. > :08:31.not be satisfied. From the shisha garden in west
:08:31. > :08:37.London to our own little garden, always full of hot air, in the heart
:08:37. > :08:42.of Westminster, Ash Atalla, welcome to the programme. Thank you for
:08:42. > :08:45.having me. Isn't the danger that you have created a dreadful precedent
:08:45. > :08:50.for a fledgling democracy, which is that if you do not like the
:08:50. > :08:55.government commies and the military? Egypt has essentially taken the
:08:55. > :08:59.opportunity to reboot the revolution. It is hard to get it
:08:59. > :09:04.right first time. I think they were slightly tricked into the agenda
:09:04. > :09:11.that the Muslim Brotherhood offered them. I think he came to power on a
:09:11. > :09:16.ticket of inclusion, and there are many factions in Egypt. Having
:09:16. > :09:21.seized power, he was like a child having too many sweets. It honestly
:09:21. > :09:25.went to his head. I do not think he gave much of a careful what the
:09:25. > :09:30.nation needed. You say it is a reboot, and that is what the people
:09:30. > :09:35.in the streets would like to see as well, but can we be sure of that?
:09:35. > :09:42.The Army is the most powerful institution in Egypt. The Army ran
:09:42. > :09:47.in Egypt under Mubarak, and under Nasser as well. Why can we be sure
:09:47. > :09:51.they will give it up and put it back on the democratic road? I do not
:09:51. > :09:54.think Egypt could afford another three years of this not working.
:09:55. > :10:00.That is what people here forget. There is a ticking clock because the
:10:00. > :10:03.country is in sharp and fast decay. People say, is democracy not about
:10:03. > :10:13.waiting until the incumbent has had their time and then putting them
:10:13. > :10:15.out? I honestly do not think everyday people have that luxury,
:10:15. > :10:18.because they are struggling to eat, businesses are going down the pan,
:10:18. > :10:23.you cannot move around the country, it is in turmoil. You cannot get
:10:23. > :10:26.diesel, and for years is a long time to watch your life fall apart.
:10:26. > :10:30.have also sent a signal to the Muslim Brotherhood and it's like
:10:30. > :10:36.throughout the Arab world, that next time you get elected into power,
:10:36. > :10:41.shut down the rest quickly, or they will remove you. I do not even think
:10:41. > :10:45.the revolution is necessarily along religious lines. 90% of Egypt is
:10:45. > :10:51.Muslim. This was not about Muslim against Christian. That was not my
:10:51. > :10:59.point. What I was saying was that if you are like the Muslim Brotherhood,
:10:59. > :11:06.or even more extreme, the signal you have sent is that if you get into
:11:06. > :11:11.power, do not allow the Army, the opposition to get on. Close them
:11:12. > :11:15.down the moment you get into power. I disagree. The signal they have
:11:15. > :11:21.sent is, if you come into power and you are too hard line for what the
:11:21. > :11:26.people want, they will not tolerate it. You cannot get away with that.
:11:26. > :11:32.It is a difficult problem for the West, as we look in on this, because
:11:32. > :11:37.we are meant to be against military coup is in democracies, and yet it
:11:37. > :11:43.is quite clear that this is a popular move. The West needs to
:11:43. > :11:46.understand its own interests. It seems to me that we have had a
:11:46. > :11:49.rather Boy Scout attitude to foreign policy, which is that we have
:11:49. > :11:54.supported the creation of democracy in all these places without
:11:54. > :11:58.understanding what it may lead to. Now we find ourselves not able to
:11:59. > :12:03.condemn the coup because we are really against Islamism, and we are
:12:03. > :12:09.afraid that the Muslim Brotherhood was imposing Islamism in Egypt. I
:12:09. > :12:13.think if we properly understand our national interest, they are that we
:12:13. > :12:18.are against Islamism. It is against our interests that Islamism should
:12:18. > :12:22.succeed in Egypt, in Syria, or in Turkey for that matter. The
:12:22. > :12:25.extraordinary thing is that the two regimes that were successful at
:12:25. > :12:30.suppressing the Muslim Brotherhood were Mubarak in Egypt and Assad in
:12:30. > :12:35.Syria, and we played a part in the first and are trying to bring down
:12:35. > :12:38.the second. Our foreign policy position is confused. Unlike William
:12:38. > :12:43.Hague and the foreign office line, and the Prime Minister, you'd think
:12:43. > :12:48.we should support the coup. You think we should say we are happy
:12:48. > :12:51.this has happened. That is more or less what the West is saying.
:12:51. > :12:57.President Obama says he wants to see the return of a democratic
:12:57. > :13:01.government. Not the democratic government. When push has come to
:13:01. > :13:06.shove, let's take Obama as a perfect case, he is refusing to call this a
:13:06. > :13:11.coup. He is refusing to cut off the aid. He is refusing to say he wants
:13:11. > :13:17.the elected government back in office. He understands that what he
:13:17. > :13:20.really wants is to oppose Islamism, even if that involves a coup.
:13:20. > :13:23.think the world, the West certainly, once a more moderate
:13:23. > :13:28.government in place. That is what the Egyptian people thought they
:13:28. > :13:34.were getting, and that is why, for that reason alone can that is why he
:13:34. > :13:39.has been ousted. Egypt has been around for about 5000 years of
:13:39. > :13:49.recorded history. And it has never had a democracy, in that 5000 years,
:13:49. > :13:49.
:13:49. > :13:54.never. Highly unlikely they would get it right in two years. Very
:13:54. > :14:00.unlikely. But s disagree with Michael here. If Islamism cannot
:14:00. > :14:09.take power through democratic means, then the danger is that the
:14:09. > :14:16.militants - I mean this is a party that the Islam brotherhood looked to
:14:16. > :14:19.create the kind of Government - I agree they didn't do it. There is a
:14:19. > :14:23.mixture of intransigence and incompetence from Morsi. But for the
:14:23. > :14:26.government to step in and say 48-hours when they could have
:14:26. > :14:30.stepped in and said something's got to change and when you could have
:14:30. > :14:34.been given longer to do what he said he was going to do in the first
:14:34. > :14:38.place and didn't do, there was no lower house still in place in the
:14:38. > :14:42.first place in the country, the constitution was a mistake. That
:14:42. > :14:50.could have been amended but to say you are looking for another Algiers,
:14:50. > :14:53.that's the problem. It led to years of... What is your response? Easy
:14:53. > :14:56.wonder if the Army thought that he's going to ask us to sort this out
:14:56. > :15:00.because that would be the next thing. If there's 20 million people
:15:00. > :15:05.on the streets, you would imagine Morsi was going to say to the Army
:15:05. > :15:09.leaders, please get these people home, please help me solve this. The
:15:09. > :15:14.Army generals have probably looked around and said, I don't fancy this,
:15:14. > :15:18.there is a lot of angry people out there, they are not going to go home
:15:19. > :15:23.and we'll lose our own men and have to kill a lot of the people. I
:15:23. > :15:29.wonder if they didn't have the stomach for the fight. The danger,
:15:29. > :15:32.and it's a dangerer for a fledgling democracy that it's the streets that
:15:32. > :15:37.have changed the government. It's not a vote or Parliament, the
:15:37. > :15:42.streets have changed the government, just as they changed Mubarak last
:15:42. > :15:46.time. That doesn't necessarily lead to Parliamentary democracy? I know,
:15:46. > :15:51.but they are desperate and this is a the point I'm making. The people on
:15:51. > :15:55.the streets are desperate. When I was last in Egypt, you can sense a
:15:55. > :16:02.lawlessness in the air and the sense that ordinary people can't afford to
:16:02. > :16:08.eat. You can look around and the towns are crumbling. Crime rates
:16:08. > :16:13.have shot up? Yes and when you are hungry and angry and have no way of
:16:13. > :16:18.living, you do all you can. They are a largely uneducated nation, so it's
:16:18. > :16:28.not as if they are sitting around having intellectual arguments.
:16:28. > :16:28.
:16:29. > :16:33.see how the Army is going to try to reduce crime, but not produce food?
:16:33. > :16:40.That's not the current government's fault. That's years and years of
:16:40. > :16:46.neglect. The egg timer's run out. How do you think it's going to end?
:16:46. > :16:49.You know, I think there are going to be years of restlessness, but
:16:49. > :16:52.instead of talking about the constitution and education, whoever
:16:52. > :16:57.comes in, they need to get people back to work and to look at the
:16:57. > :17:01.economy. Whoever comes in, that's a very clear, not a simple, but a very
:17:01. > :17:05.clear line they have to follow. Thank you for being with us. Thanks
:17:05. > :17:09.for having me. It may be late, but we are open all hours which is
:17:09. > :17:16.fitting for a nation of shopkeepers. Speaking of which, waiting in the
:17:16. > :17:20.wings, the former Head of Marks & Sparks, Stuart Rose, he's whatter to
:17:20. > :17:24.talk business, politics and the Bank of England. If you think you have
:17:24. > :17:34.the moves like Jagger or Portillo, you can always show them off on the
:17:34. > :17:38.Twitter, the fleece back and the interweb dance floor.
:17:38. > :17:45.An election two years away should force its way on to the agenda here
:17:45. > :17:51.in Westminster. Tom Watson resign today and there was Ed Ed Miliband
:17:51. > :17:57.thinking his biggest headache this week was leaving his briefing notes
:17:57. > :18:06.for Prime Minister's Questions in a Westminster loo. He'd obviously run
:18:06. > :18:11.out of loo paper. This is Victoria Derbyshire's round-up of the week.
:18:11. > :18:21.It's an exciting place, the Westminster village. Always some
:18:21. > :18:34.
:18:34. > :18:38.shenanigans going on. The thing is, One thing that's true about life out
:18:38. > :18:43.here, you have to keep your eye on the Jones's, keep your eye on the
:18:43. > :18:47.giddy social climb. Politicians are always saying they are not paid as
:18:47. > :18:52.much as so-and-so up the street and you can only afford to live in
:18:52. > :18:56.London if you are a Russian oligarch or banker. But there's always an
:18:56. > :18:59.exception. The public would find it impossible to understand,
:18:59. > :19:04.particularly the millions in the public sector whose pay is only
:19:04. > :19:07.increasing by 1%, they would find it impossible to understand that their
:19:07. > :19:11.Parliamentary representatives at a time like this would be receiving
:19:11. > :19:17.pay increases far in excess of that 1%. The job of making sure people
:19:17. > :19:20.don't step out of line and do what they shouldn't - oops - is the job
:19:20. > :19:24.of the Police Service. They can only be a community Police Service if
:19:24. > :19:28.they work on behalf of everyone. Theresa May announced a consultation
:19:28. > :19:32.this week on the controversial use or overuse of stop and search. It
:19:32. > :19:36.comes a week after claims that undercover officers tried to smear
:19:36. > :19:40.the family of teenager Stephen Lawrence after his racist murder.
:19:40. > :19:48.want to see stop and search used only when it's needed. I want to see
:19:48. > :19:58.higher search to arrest ratios and better community engagement.
:19:58. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:07.# I want to turn the thing upside down... #
:20:07. > :20:10.There are plenty of people who want to visit our fare shores and soak up
:20:10. > :20:13.the rich cultural life of London. That's not the only reason they want
:20:13. > :20:18.to come here, according to the Health Secretary. He's announced a
:20:18. > :20:25.crackdown on health tourism. What price xenophobia Tweeted a certain
:20:25. > :20:30.lady of the purple sofa. Oh yeah, she's Shadow Public Health Minister
:20:30. > :20:33.now isn't she? It's a subject that goes down well with Tory
:20:33. > :20:38.backbenchers and David Cameron will be hoping they'll be hanging on his
:20:38. > :20:43.every word. As a doctor once had to listen incredulously to a patient
:20:43. > :20:49.explain via a translator that she only discovered she was nine months
:20:49. > :20:53.pregnant on arrival at Terminal 3 Heathrow, I was very pleased to hear
:20:53. > :20:58.the Secretary of State for Health's statement tourism statement today.
:20:58. > :21:03.hoped there would be all party support for it, but Labour's Health
:21:03. > :21:11.Minister said it was xenophobic. We'll oppose the sensible change
:21:11. > :21:21.which people will roundly support. Mr Hunt wants it made clear that
:21:21. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:33.visitors from outside the EU will houses is that you can always hear
:21:33. > :21:36.what your neighbours are up to. Normally it's Dave and his
:21:36. > :21:41.neighbours having a domestic. But there's a huge row reverberating all
:21:41. > :21:45.the way from Falkirk. It may be that Ed can't choose his own house mates,
:21:45. > :21:50.particularly if they are paying the rent or buying the bread or keeping
:21:50. > :21:54.the fridge stocked with milk. can't have a go at the vested
:21:54. > :21:58.interest of the Tory party if we don't clear our own house. That's
:21:59. > :22:03.just a fact of life and we have done over the years and we must do so
:22:03. > :22:06.here. For most, it's a bit arcane, the detail of what Unite are
:22:06. > :22:14.supposed to have done. No matter, David Cameron was delighted to
:22:14. > :22:20.suggest over and over that the McCluskey tail was wagging the dog.
:22:20. > :22:24.Of course, it hasn't been praised by Len McCluskey and Unite. Len
:22:24. > :22:28.McKlausty who gave him the job. The press release, Mr Speaker, how Unite
:22:28. > :22:34.plans to change the Labour Party! I know you are paid to shout by Unite,
:22:34. > :22:40.but calm down a bit. This is what it says. "We give millions of pounds to
:22:40. > :22:45.the party, the relationship has to change. We want a firmly class-base
:22:45. > :22:50.and left-wing general election campaign". Ouch. Isn't it meant to
:22:50. > :22:53.be questions to the Prime Minister. ? Oh well, it's a topsy-turvy world.
:22:53. > :22:58.This is a Prime Minister who Haddiners for donors in Downing
:22:58. > :23:05.Street. He gave a tax cut to his Christmas card list and brought Andy
:23:05. > :23:09.Coulson into the heart of Downing Street. The idea that he's lecturing
:23:09. > :23:13.us about ethics takes double standards to a whole new level.
:23:13. > :23:18.Whatever the sound and fury in the Commons, it's the perception of Ed's
:23:18. > :23:22.links with the unions that could prove most damaging, reminding us of
:23:22. > :23:27.the soap opera storiline when Ed beat his brother to the leadership
:23:27. > :23:30.with the packing of the union vote. I spoke to Tom Watson on Tuesday. He
:23:30. > :23:35.felt he was thinking about his position. I said we should consider
:23:35. > :23:39.that. I calm to the conclusion at lunch time today that it was right
:23:39. > :23:43.that he went. I spoke to him and said that. See, I told you. Never a
:23:43. > :23:48.dull moment in our little village. And it's bound to get even more
:23:48. > :23:56.interesting as we head towards the race for the most important address
:23:56. > :24:02.of them all. Cut will! !
:24:02. > :24:09.That wasn't Victoria's home. She hasn't had a huge BBC pay off yet.
:24:09. > :24:14.She was filming at the Dalston house, an artwork commission bed I
:24:14. > :24:23.the Barbican, free to visit until 4th August. You would have to be
:24:23. > :24:28.brave go along. Alp, explain why Tom Watson has resigned? Yes. Falkirk
:24:28. > :24:33.looks very much like someone was bucking the system, trying to
:24:33. > :24:37.distort the election process signing up members. Indeed, there was a rule
:24:37. > :24:39.apparently that I didn't know existed that unions can pay the
:24:39. > :24:43.firstees subscriptions for Labour Party members. They were doing that
:24:43. > :24:49.sometimes without the knowledge of the individual who was joining up to
:24:49. > :24:54.try to distort... Why was that?The election process to get a certain
:24:54. > :24:59.candidate elected. That certain candidate works for Tom Watson and
:24:59. > :25:06.the investigation is going into the Unite union whose General Secretary
:25:06. > :25:11.is Len McCluskey who's an old friend of Tom Watson. I think Tom Watson
:25:11. > :25:15.thought, this is looking too much like I'm part of this story and
:25:15. > :25:23.decided to step aside. It's the right thing to do. Fingerprints are
:25:23. > :25:30.all over it? We'll wait and see what the investigation comes up with.
:25:30. > :25:34.Whatever other reason to resign? Even if his fingerprints aren't all
:25:34. > :25:38.over, this it looks very much like they are. It likes as though the
:25:38. > :25:44.person working in the office is your candidate being selected in this
:25:44. > :25:48.way. I think we could file that under D for difficult. Given that
:25:48. > :25:55.it's bleeding obvious, why did it take two days for Mr Miliband to
:25:55. > :26:01.work out if Mr Watson should resign? I guess he was reluctant to, without
:26:01. > :26:06.the evidence, I mean he did stop the election process straightaway. Not
:26:06. > :26:10.too sure whether he still knows what the final outcome is. He offered to
:26:10. > :26:14.resign two days ago. There is some doubt as to whether - fair enough to
:26:14. > :26:19.say look, we don't know the ins and outs of this yet - there was some
:26:19. > :26:25.evidence that it was the Falkirk party rather than the chairman of
:26:25. > :26:30.the Falkirk party's's been suspended rather than the Unite union. I
:26:30. > :26:36.suppose he wanted to see all the evidence. His spin doctor's put it
:26:36. > :26:43.about after the event today that Mr Watson was effectively fired?
:26:43. > :26:48.Andrew, you are telling me news. I saw Ed Miliband say he's resigned.
:26:48. > :26:53.Tom Watson on the news tonight has resigned. If he was fired... No, you
:26:53. > :26:57.know how spin works, they don't really say that, they kind of imply
:26:57. > :27:04.that this was... Because what they were to counteract by putting it
:27:04. > :27:14.about that this was the slap of firm opposition is the weak, weak, weak
:27:14. > :27:16.
:27:16. > :27:20.Mr Planned. That ease what they want to counteract? -- Mr Miliband.
:27:20. > :27:24.He's seen this report for more than two days. He said in that interview,
:27:24. > :27:30.in the clip we ran tonight, and I read the whole transcript, the
:27:31. > :27:34.report clearly concludes that there was a sort sort of mass membership
:27:34. > :27:38.that people were being signed up and the single cheque for them all was
:27:38. > :27:44.being handed over. It's quite clear that that's what was happening.
:27:44. > :27:48.said that, yes. When you see that, you know Mr Watson's link has been
:27:48. > :27:53.pushed with Mr McCluskey and Unite. Whiled you take two days to make
:27:53. > :28:01.your mind up? Look, he's resigned and it's the right thing for him to
:28:01. > :28:06.do. How damaging is it for Labour for this to come back? Damaging. I
:28:06. > :28:12.came back through the militant years. You could turn up at a
:28:12. > :28:17.selection meeting with a pocketful of union votes. That was the one
:28:17. > :28:21.union one vote time. That was the start of the process, not tend,
:28:21. > :28:26.there were other things that needed to change. We know from the report
:28:26. > :28:32.that was leaked that they were out to dominate the selection process in
:28:32. > :28:38.41 constituencies, they have three officials working - their own report
:28:38. > :28:43.- they have three officials working full-time on this, they describe it
:28:43. > :28:53.as "a furious operation" and they are prepared to spend �10,000 on
:28:53. > :28:56.
:28:56. > :29:00.each of these operations to get are looking to get people with
:29:00. > :29:10.working backgrounds into Parliament, and many people would say yes to
:29:10. > :29:13.that on all sides of the house. The second bit of it, I have had
:29:13. > :29:17.arguments with people like Len McCluskey four-year is, the second
:29:17. > :29:21.part of it is the view that the reason we did not win elections is
:29:21. > :29:28.because we are not left wing enough. And actually, if you go on a
:29:28. > :29:32.class taste thing, we are the only people you want. Working-class
:29:32. > :29:37.people who have aspiration and get their kids to do well and go to
:29:37. > :29:41.university and qualify, their kids, by this viewpoint, are not fit to be
:29:41. > :29:45.Labour candidates. They might have been sons or daughters of postmen,
:29:45. > :29:51.but they now have university degrees and other jobs. It is very
:29:51. > :29:58.depressing. You are our man on these labour issues. What do you make of
:29:58. > :30:02.how Mr Miliband has handled it? did not think his interview was
:30:02. > :30:07.great. It was the moment when he said he was incredibly angry, whilst
:30:07. > :30:13.sounding not particularly angry. I get the feeling, you are not sorry,
:30:13. > :30:19.you are just sorry you got found out. Sadly, it looks as if full kirk
:30:19. > :30:25.is not particularly isolated. This embarrassment about how Ed Miliband
:30:25. > :30:30.won the leadership had gone away, and this idea that he is the puppet
:30:30. > :30:38.of the union is coming back now is really bad for him, I think. He is
:30:38. > :30:42.not, is he? That is how the perception is created. A year ago,
:30:42. > :30:47.with the report about public sector pay restraint, all hell broke loose
:30:47. > :30:52.from people like Len McCluskey and he stuck to his guns. He said, we
:30:52. > :31:00.will use the 2015-16 spending round as our starting point. Nothing that
:31:01. > :31:04.he has done has been a sop to the unions. We have seen a much more
:31:04. > :31:07.aggressive Prime Minister at Prime Minister 's questions, batting back
:31:07. > :31:14.questions, trying to put the leader of the opposition on the spot, not
:31:14. > :31:17.quite what PMQ 's is about, but that is what he is doing. I would suggest
:31:17. > :31:23.we now see the hand of Lyndon Crosby, the new campaign leader, who
:31:23. > :31:29.will take the Tories into the next campaign, in this more aggressive,
:31:29. > :31:33.targeted approach. I think we do. I thought was a model performance in
:31:33. > :31:37.that he repeated the point about Unite again and again. David Cameron
:31:37. > :31:40.has not been good at repeating points. If you want to get something
:31:40. > :31:45.across in politics you have to say until everybody is fed up of hearing
:31:45. > :31:48.it. But I think it is coincidental with what Tories regard as a
:31:48. > :31:54.seachange the political landscape, Labour backing down on schools
:31:54. > :31:58.reform, backing down on public spending, the National Health
:31:58. > :32:03.Service being such a mess, which put them on the back foot, and now the
:32:03. > :32:10.Unite issue. So it has been a pretty good four-week period for the
:32:10. > :32:16.Tories. I think it surprised them to find themselves in this position.
:32:16. > :32:22.Moving on, should MPs get a pay rise? Objectively, MPs are
:32:22. > :32:26.underpaid. But whether you can actually give them an enormous, ten
:32:26. > :32:34.grand or more pay rise in the current climate, you might term
:32:34. > :32:40.Parliament Square into Tahrir Square. It would be so provocative.
:32:40. > :32:45.By what objective criteria are MPs underpaid? Sarah Wollaston, who was
:32:45. > :32:51.a GP, had the guts to point out that she took a �40,000 pay cut to become
:32:51. > :33:01.an MP. I took a huge pay cut to come and do this. D-Ream and we are very
:33:01. > :33:08.
:33:08. > :33:11.grateful. And we are very grateful. There is one camp that says, the pay
:33:11. > :33:17.is about right, and another that says apply the recommendations, but
:33:18. > :33:22.there are not many people in that camp, in the outside of Parliament.
:33:22. > :33:26.I suspect their pay should be higher but I do not see any way they can
:33:26. > :33:30.take it. They used to vote for their home page and then they were told
:33:30. > :33:34.not to vote for it. And now they are told they cannot take the
:33:34. > :33:39.recommendation from the independent body. Three votes for no pay rise. I
:33:39. > :33:42.am sorry. Now, unlike the stiffs over on Today
:33:42. > :33:46.or Newsnight, we're totally rock 'n' roll here on This Week. And as the
:33:46. > :33:49.BBC's only political super-group, we know how to put on a show. As the
:33:49. > :33:52.charismatic front man, I like to rock the mike. As the sharp-dressed
:33:52. > :33:54.lead guitarist, Alan likes to wield the conversational axe. And as the
:33:54. > :33:57.onstage backing dancer, hired largely for his pretty boy looks,
:33:57. > :34:03.Michael's more than happy to shake his maracas and make the girls
:34:03. > :34:07.scream. So when it comes to performing, in business or in
:34:07. > :34:11.politics, just how much does star quality really matter? We've decided
:34:11. > :34:21.to turn our amps up to 11, and find out, and put rock stars in this
:34:21. > :34:32.
:34:32. > :34:36.after 50 years in the business, and pulling a record crowd in the
:34:36. > :34:41.process, proves rock stars do not get any bigger than the still
:34:41. > :34:46.Rolling Stones, unless your name is Mark Carney and you are the new
:34:46. > :34:49.governor of the Bank of England. His arrival at Threadneedle Street this
:34:49. > :34:54.week was greeted with knicker throwing delight. Elvis has well and
:34:54. > :34:59.truly into the building. At Old Trafford, the new manager has even
:34:59. > :35:04.bigger boots to fill, yet Manchester United decided against hiring a rock
:35:04. > :35:08.star manager, judging there were enough superstars out on the pitch.
:35:08. > :35:12.So, are charismatic leader is the key to success, or do they end up
:35:12. > :35:16.being more trouble than they are worth? Would politics be better
:35:16. > :35:23.served by leaders with genuine star quality, rather than the dull middle
:35:23. > :35:33.managers we seem to have today? SAS have a famous motto. Who dares
:35:33. > :35:35.
:35:35. > :35:40.wins. We dare. We will win. If only they made them like they used to!
:35:40. > :35:47.They don't make them like they used to. Thank God for that. Stuart Rose
:35:47. > :35:50.is with us. Looking like a rock star with your scarf. I have just come
:35:50. > :35:58.from a wedding and I am proud to wear it to celebrate a friend's
:35:58. > :36:02.wedding. You can wear what you want. As long as it is not his shirt. We
:36:03. > :36:09.used to talk of the rockstar Chief Executive, and you were regarded as
:36:09. > :36:12.a rock star Chief Executive. They have gone out of favour. We live in
:36:12. > :36:16.a 24-hour world. What happens in Cairo or Los Angeles is known a
:36:16. > :36:22.minute later, and if you are a leader you have to be able to react
:36:22. > :36:26.to all of the inputs coming towards you. It is a 21st century need. You
:36:26. > :36:33.cannot avoid it. You have to be good at media, whether spoken media,
:36:33. > :36:40.visual, social, and that is part and parcel of the job. From that has
:36:40. > :36:45.come the cult of personality. do not really know, the public in
:36:45. > :36:51.general, do not really know who the Chief Executive 's of all of the
:36:51. > :36:57.FTSE 100 companies are. Well, they know more than they used to know.
:36:57. > :37:01.They do not know your successor. They probably do. I can break it
:37:01. > :37:04.into sectors. I used to ask journalists why they wrote about
:37:04. > :37:09.Marks and Spencer and they said business is a subject that readers
:37:09. > :37:15.are interested in and people relate to the shop. They used to use it as
:37:16. > :37:19.an example. But they wrote about it because of you as well. I had an
:37:19. > :37:25.unusual start. In my first week there was a battle with Philip Green
:37:25. > :37:31.about the ownership, in private or public. We had to ramp it up and it
:37:31. > :37:37.became personalised. Did he try to hit you? People me from my car and
:37:38. > :37:42.made accusations, yes. I forgot about that. Is it more important to
:37:43. > :37:48.have the front man or the backing band? A front man is only as good as
:37:48. > :37:52.the backing band that he has got. The Americans have an expression,
:37:52. > :37:57.all hat and no cattle. There is no point in having the hat if you have
:37:57. > :38:03.not also got the capital. If you are Mark Carney, coming to the Bank of
:38:03. > :38:07.England, clearly, he has to know a lot about economics, has to have a
:38:07. > :38:12.track record, has to have all the skills necessary to get people to
:38:12. > :38:16.deliver what they have to deliver and reform the banking sector. But
:38:16. > :38:21.he also needs to sell the story. In our world, that is an extra skill
:38:21. > :38:26.that he needs, and he seems to have it. But it can work against you
:38:26. > :38:33.because if it goes wrong, it goes wrong big-time. Are we not building
:38:33. > :38:36.him up for a great fall? Possibly. When Mervyn King took over, it years
:38:36. > :38:41.for him to be well-known but this man is like the Mick Jagger of
:38:41. > :38:51.central banking. It can only go downhill. There is a danger that you
:38:51. > :38:51.
:38:51. > :38:56.build up expectations. Enoch Powell always said that political careers
:38:56. > :39:02.ended in tears. What do you think of the way we are building up Mark
:39:02. > :39:05.Carney to be this Superman from Canada? I think it probably starts
:39:05. > :39:10.with the government. The government is so worried about growth, jobs and
:39:10. > :39:14.what is going to happen to interest rates, that I think they feel they
:39:14. > :39:19.have a golf bag with no clubs in it. The one thing they are hoping
:39:19. > :39:22.for is that Mark Carney can pull something out of the fire. I think
:39:22. > :39:27.this build-up of Mark Carney as a superstar has emanated from a
:39:27. > :39:31.feeling that ministers are putting so much reliance on him. On the
:39:31. > :39:35.general point about superstars, I think they are good for periods of
:39:35. > :39:38.change your crisis. I think of Margaret Thatcher and Winston
:39:38. > :39:41.Churchill. Extraordinarily in history, the government that
:39:41. > :39:49.achieved most in terms of social change was the post-war Labour
:39:49. > :39:54.government, which was led by a managerial type. The opposite of a
:39:54. > :40:01.rockstar. A bank manager of the old-fashioned sort. He just got on
:40:01. > :40:04.with it. I can understand the superstar, chief executive,
:40:04. > :40:08.politician, but Governor of the Bank of England, I would think that
:40:08. > :40:13.public want something different. Clement Attlee type figure might be
:40:13. > :40:21.more reassuring than a George Clooney superstar. What is the most
:40:21. > :40:24.important word today for people, trust. Without being too flippant
:40:24. > :40:27.commie cannot trust teachers in some places, you cannot trust the police
:40:27. > :40:32.because they record on the serrations, you cannot trust your
:40:32. > :40:36.bank manager, so people want to trust people. I suspect in Mark
:40:36. > :40:40.Carney, the expectations are very high. They are genuine
:40:40. > :40:45.expectations, so let's hope he does deliver. Because the backlash will
:40:45. > :40:50.be difficult if he does not. demands of the modern age force
:40:50. > :40:53.rockstar types into positions you would not associate with being a
:40:53. > :40:58.rockstar, whether Governor of the Bank of England, leader of political
:40:58. > :41:02.parties. As you say, you have to perform well in the media to get on
:41:02. > :41:08.in a particular profession. And if you do, the media take more interest
:41:08. > :41:14.in you. And people like big personalities. They complain about
:41:14. > :41:20.the grey, the Dahl, every politician today, with two exceptions here,
:41:20. > :41:23.every politician comes from the same mould, on the left and the right.
:41:23. > :41:32.Absolutely true. We have seen high-profile examples of people who
:41:32. > :41:36.were very high end up fallen very low. Are you looking over here?
:41:36. > :41:42.is the problem with the approach in politics and public life. Most rock
:41:42. > :41:46.stars seem to go on forever. But in public life, quite often the
:41:46. > :41:53.faster, the further you rise and become a rockstar type, the more
:41:53. > :42:00.brutal the fall. It is interesting, the question about why they deliver.
:42:01. > :42:05.Rock stars keep delivering the same old stuff, the old favourites.
:42:05. > :42:10.just say that Boris is to watch out for that, because he is being built
:42:10. > :42:13.up into this huge charismatic figure. To be successful anywhere,
:42:13. > :42:18.as Stewart said, you need the backing band, whether the cabinet,
:42:18. > :42:24.or people working around him. You cannot do in government what you can
:42:24. > :42:27.do in a more ceremonial role as the Mayor of London. Boris is a really
:42:27. > :42:36.charismatic guy and I want to see him built up and built up and built
:42:36. > :42:42.up. Tony Blair was a rockstar politician. He was, and so was
:42:42. > :42:46.Margaret Thatcher. And in a 24-7 media, people are looking much more
:42:46. > :42:51.now to the Prime Minister, rather than the cabinet. Clement Attlee,
:42:51. > :42:57.famously when he was being interviewed, the BBC asked if he had
:42:57. > :43:03.anything to say and he said, no. You would never get away with that now.
:43:03. > :43:08.Now, you do not answer the question but you speak for three minutes. Not
:43:08. > :43:18.you personally! If you could come back in this life, would you come
:43:18. > :43:20.
:43:20. > :43:27.back as yourself or Mick Jagger? Mick Jagger, he is the lead singer
:43:27. > :43:34.of a rock band. I thought it was a difficult philosophical question. I
:43:35. > :43:40.would say myself, but I hope I mean that. Jagger. Paul McCartney.
:43:40. > :43:43.shopping in Marks & Spencer? Yes. That's your lot for tonight folks,
:43:43. > :43:47.but not for us, because it's Abu Qatada's going away party at
:43:47. > :43:49.Annabel's, and we're all off to say our final goodbyes to one of This
:43:49. > :43:56.Week's oldest and most loyal viewers. Hello, Mrs Q. Don't wait