:00:15. > :00:32.Just how crazy is Labour leader, Ed Miliband, with his plan to freeze
:00:32. > :00:36.energy bills? Would it take Britain back to the blackouts of the 1970s?
:00:36. > :00:38.Power-dressing commentator Andrew Rawnsley, who was in short trousers
:00:38. > :00:52.back then, talks political energy. His opponents may see Ed Miliband's
:00:52. > :00:57.policies are a red cocktail from the 1970s, but when semi-voters hold
:00:57. > :01:06.energy companies in contempt, I suspect his price freeze will prove
:01:06. > :01:09.rather popular. Diplomatic relations with Iran have
:01:09. > :01:14.been frozen in time since 1979 but could they be heading for a thaw?
:01:14. > :01:24.The BBC's Frank Gardner is revving up his bike. I can't think of any
:01:24. > :01:28.time since Iran underwent Islamic Revolution in the 1970s when there
:01:28. > :01:33.has been such a resolve to try to settle the dispute to clean Iran and
:01:33. > :01:37.the United States. And the era of Angela Merkel, who
:01:37. > :01:47.wins in Germany again. German comedian Henning Wehn tells us what
:01:47. > :01:53.makes this powerful lady so cool. Angela Merkel may have won over
:01:53. > :01:57.Germany, but Andrew, she is not a patch on you.
:01:57. > :02:02.Crazy horses. Aah, aah. Crazy horses. Aah.
:02:02. > :02:06.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. Now, good ideas are few and far
:02:06. > :02:09.between, but Ed Balls came up with one this week. Acknowledging that
:02:09. > :02:12.trust in politicians is at an all-time low, he called on the
:02:12. > :02:15.government's independent watchdog, the OBR, to test any claims he makes
:02:16. > :02:19.between now and the next election, to reassure a sceptical electorate
:02:19. > :02:24.that he can once again be trusted in office. Now, this makes perfect
:02:24. > :02:32.sense to me. I don't understand why the government is so against it.
:02:33. > :02:35.After all, the OBR is ideally placed to judge the reliability of the
:02:35. > :02:38.Shadow Chancellor's statements, starting, perhaps, with the big
:02:38. > :02:41.announcements he made at this week's party conference, such as "negative,
:02:41. > :02:45.nasty briefing is wrong, but it's also a thing of the past". Wouldn't
:02:45. > :02:49.you like the OBR to run its slide rule over that one? Or, how about,
:02:49. > :02:52."Briefing against a colleague is not something I've ever done. I think
:02:52. > :02:55.it's the wrong way to do politics"? You'd pay for an independent
:02:55. > :03:00.assessment of that. And our personal favourite, "Damian McBride did some
:03:00. > :03:03.of those things. It was despicable. It's the wrong thing to do. It's not
:03:03. > :03:11.something I've ever done. It's not something I will ever do". I'd like
:03:11. > :03:14.to see the OBR crawl all over that. So we await the verdict of the OBR
:03:14. > :03:19.with baited breath, and raised eyebrows. No. Not the Office for
:03:19. > :03:24.Budget Responsibility. That's boring. We're talking about the
:03:24. > :03:27.Office of Balls Responsibility. Now that really would be a welcome
:03:27. > :03:31.addition to political life. Speaking of those who "would say that,
:03:31. > :03:34.wouldn't they", I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two monstrosities
:03:34. > :03:37.it's hard not to love. Think of them as the Preston Bus Station and
:03:37. > :03:40.Godfrey Bloom of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:40. > :03:52.of #iffysmiffy Jacqui Smith, and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo"
:03:52. > :03:58.Portillo. Moment of the week? Peter Mandelson
:03:58. > :04:05.came out against the Ed Miliband promise on freezing gas prices. I
:04:05. > :04:07.thought this was interesting because Peter Mandelson was successful, with
:04:07. > :04:11.Tony Blair, in getting business on Labour 's Mac side. For a
:04:11. > :04:14.Conservative, during that decade and a half when business was on
:04:14. > :04:19.Labour's side, it was incredibly tomorrow lies in. But the
:04:19. > :04:22.announcement that Labour is going back to price freezes will next time
:04:22. > :04:26.guarantee that the business vote and business money is with the
:04:26. > :04:31.Conservatives, so a lot of Conservatives are feeling pleased.
:04:31. > :04:36.But if Mandelson is against it, it will consolidate Mr Miliband's
:04:36. > :04:39.position in the Labour Party. Yes. But Mr Miliband is depriving himself
:04:39. > :04:46.of trade union funding and now business funding. Your moment? Lord
:04:46. > :04:51.Ashcroft, former Tory treasurer, self-confessed tax avoidance, got
:04:51. > :04:54.quite a sympathetic, almost generous response when he appeared at the
:04:54. > :04:59.Fabian's fringe at Labour conference this week. It might have been
:04:59. > :05:02.because one of the things he was talking about was the polling he has
:05:02. > :05:09.done in the seats that Labour needs to win to gain a majority. It shows
:05:09. > :05:13.Labour in a strong position. The swing is much higher there than in
:05:13. > :05:17.other seats. He is now almost better known for his polling than for
:05:17. > :05:21.funding the Tory party. You can wave count on Michael Ashcroft to be
:05:21. > :05:25.helpful to the Conservatives! Now, how many This Week pundits does
:05:25. > :05:28.it take to change a light bulb? Just the one. Michael holds the light
:05:28. > :05:32.bulb and the universe revolves around him. Boom boom! Whether we
:05:32. > :05:34.can turn it on is another matter entirely. Now Ed Miliband's
:05:34. > :05:38.threatening to cap energy bills, and energy companies are threatening to
:05:38. > :05:41.switch off the lights as they leave the country. But will Ed's policy
:05:41. > :05:42.turn on the voters? Here's The Observer's Andrew Rawnsley with his
:05:42. > :06:06.conference take of the week. Power. If Labour is to see it
:06:06. > :06:11.again, the party has some stiff challenges to overcome. With just 20
:06:11. > :06:15.months before the next election, the machinery has to be humming at the
:06:15. > :06:20.party conference in Brighton. Challenge number one, to address
:06:20. > :06:25.Labour's greatest vulnerability, it's deficit on economic
:06:25. > :06:28.credibility. That demanded some convincing talk from the Shadow
:06:28. > :06:34.Chancellor. The British people rightly want to know that the sums
:06:34. > :06:36.add up. So we will go one step further and ask the independent
:06:36. > :06:40.Office for Budget Responsibility, the watchdog set up by the
:06:41. > :06:45.government, to independently audit the costings of every single
:06:45. > :06:49.individual spending and tax measure in Labour's manifesto at the next
:06:49. > :06:55.election. A clever play, by Ed Balls. If the Treasury resists
:06:56. > :06:59.allowing the OBE are audit the plans, the risk for the Tories is
:06:59. > :07:04.that they are the ones who will look like they are playing games. Power
:07:04. > :07:08.challenge number two, where is the money going to come from? The Shadow
:07:08. > :07:15.Chancellor has his eye on a very expensive train set. The HS2 project
:07:15. > :07:19.has been totally mismanaged and the costs have shot up to £50 billion.
:07:19. > :07:24.We will not take this irresponsible approach. Let us be clear, in tough
:07:24. > :07:29.times when there is less money around and a big deficit to get
:07:29. > :07:34.down, there will be no blank cheque from me as a Labour Chancellor for
:07:34. > :07:38.this project, or any other project. I am told Labour is not going to
:07:38. > :07:43.make a decision about HS2 for some time yet. For one thing, it is just
:07:44. > :07:47.too useful to Ed Balls to be able to repeat no blank cheques as a way of
:07:47. > :07:52.suggesting he would be a flinty disciplinarian. Power challenge
:07:52. > :07:56.number three, putting the party's past behind it. That was not helped
:07:56. > :08:03.by Gordon Brown's former hit man, Damien Wright, a man as well come at
:08:03. > :08:08.the conference as flatulence in a crowded lift. -- Damian McBride.
:08:08. > :08:11.They strutted around like characters from the West Wing. Bank 's to
:08:11. > :08:19.people like you, it was more like the Sopranos. -- thanks to people
:08:19. > :08:23.like you. It fitted that sort of idea of some people operating in a
:08:23. > :08:29.way which people find acceptable because it is gangster -ish. How was
:08:29. > :08:32.-- how damaging was this reminding of the civil war that consumed the
:08:32. > :08:37.last Labour government? Not that much. The poisonous confessions
:08:37. > :08:41.proved less of a distraction than the Labour leadership had feared.
:08:41. > :08:46.Power challenge number four, make Labour look more like a party ready
:08:46. > :08:50.for government, a pledge which they think the shine most brightly with
:08:50. > :08:57.voters, the promised to freeze energy prices for 20 months. If we
:08:57. > :09:01.win the election in 2015, the next Labour government will freeze gas
:09:01. > :09:12.and electricity prices until the start of 2017. Your bills will not
:09:12. > :09:16.rise. It will benefit millions of families and millions of businesses.
:09:16. > :09:20.That is what I mean by a government that fights for you. That is what I
:09:20. > :09:30.mean when I say Britain can be better than this. Read Ed is back,
:09:30. > :09:34.the snap verdict of -- the left and the right. Peter Mandelson, helpful
:09:34. > :09:37.as ever to his party and probably not troubled by the size of his gas
:09:37. > :09:43.bill, added his voice to criticism of the price freeze. The parallel
:09:43. > :09:46.that I see is with the windfall tax on privatised industries introduced
:09:46. > :09:51.by Lord Mandelson was my friend, Tony Blair, in new Labour's first
:09:51. > :09:55.term. Companies howled about that when it was first announced but grew
:09:55. > :09:59.to accept it. And it also proved pretty popular with the public.
:09:59. > :10:03.Power challenge number five, persuade more people to think of Ed
:10:03. > :10:10.Miliband as a potential Prime Minister. His personal poll numbers
:10:10. > :10:15.are persistently dismal. He took the leadership question head-on. I have
:10:15. > :10:19.a question for the Tories today. If they want to have a debate about
:10:19. > :10:27.leadership and character, be my guest. Talk to Tories and they will
:10:27. > :10:30.often tell you they are confident of winning the next election if it is
:10:30. > :10:36.Cameron against Miliband, a presidential contest. Strange,
:10:37. > :10:40.then, their attitude to the idea of more televised debates. Some Tories
:10:40. > :10:47.seemed to be suggesting they wanted to snuff them out. So, Labour left
:10:47. > :10:50.Brighton with more energy. At the big test is whether they can keep
:10:50. > :10:59.the generators turning in the weeks to come. -- but the big test.
:10:59. > :11:10.Andrew Raunds Lee, practising for the blackout. He joins us now in our
:11:10. > :11:14.little Westminster power station. Can we agree that Ed Miliband is in
:11:14. > :11:22.a stronger place tonight than a week ago? I think he was. He went into
:11:22. > :11:27.the conference with some of the Shadow Cabinet apparently on strike.
:11:27. > :11:31.The August of angst, where the news vacuum was filled with critical
:11:31. > :11:38.voices. We can argue about the policies. But he has at least now
:11:38. > :11:42.given, and I heard this from a lot of MPs and activists, he has given
:11:42. > :11:46.them some goods to sell on the doorstep. Although sensible people
:11:46. > :11:50.do not think all our problems are doorstep. Although sensible people
:11:50. > :11:53.over and we will win the next election automatically, they did
:11:53. > :12:00.generally feel they were in a better place after the conference than
:12:00. > :12:06.before. I do not agree with that. I think the problem is the freeze on
:12:06. > :12:09.gas prices. It strikes many independent commentators as silly.
:12:09. > :12:15.It is not grown-up economics. It is not something that can be sustained.
:12:15. > :12:22.Sooner or later, the price will go up, or the price freeze will have to
:12:22. > :12:27.go on. It is a step into populism, which I think actually reduces Ed
:12:27. > :12:32.Miliband's status. I think he emerges worse. Do you not think it
:12:32. > :12:37.might be popular populism? All of the polls tell us people are
:12:37. > :12:43.outraged by the energy companies. I do not think people are that stupid.
:12:43. > :12:48.I also think it comes two years to early. It is politically important
:12:48. > :12:51.and economically right. It is politically important because it
:12:51. > :12:54.puts flesh on the argument that the election will be fought on the basis
:12:54. > :12:57.of living standards, and it is Labour that understands that whilst
:12:57. > :13:01.the economy may be growing, living standards are not improving. And it
:13:01. > :13:07.is economically right because the important point about it, behind the
:13:07. > :13:10.headline, is the argument about the nature of the market and a
:13:10. > :13:15.willingness to look at the way you reform that market, and also
:13:15. > :13:20.politically, for Ed Miliband to be in a place where he says, I will
:13:20. > :13:23.take on vested interests. You are not reforming the market. You are
:13:23. > :13:29.making a state intervention to freeze prices. Whilst reform of the
:13:29. > :13:36.market is undertaken. Why not reform the market? That is completely
:13:36. > :13:42.legitimate to say that if the result of a cartel is barriers to entry and
:13:42. > :13:47.vertical integration, prices that have increased disproportionately,
:13:47. > :13:50.more disproportionately in the last few years than when we were in
:13:50. > :13:56.government, then you need to reform the government -- the market. Of all
:13:56. > :14:06.the things it is, it is not economically sensible. Where will
:14:06. > :14:10.the Liberal party be? I agree that Miliband is strengthened, very much
:14:10. > :14:17.so. On the one hand, Nick Clegg has positioned himself as the moderate
:14:17. > :14:21.man between two extremes. It does look very socialist, and Michael is
:14:21. > :14:24.right that people will be nervous about the practicalities of some of
:14:24. > :14:28.these policies. On the other hand, there is an undoubted appeal for
:14:28. > :14:32.disgruntled former Lib Dem voters. The strongest line in the speech, I
:14:32. > :14:38.thought, was weak against the strong but strong against the week. I think
:14:38. > :14:42.there are a lot of former Lib Dem voters who think that is a big
:14:42. > :14:48.appeal. It may not last. Last year, she delivered a fantastic speech and
:14:48. > :14:51.there was no follow-through. It is interesting to see what happens in
:14:51. > :14:56.the next few months, because this may collapse. The difference this
:14:56. > :15:02.year is actually what Andrew said. There is more policy this year,
:15:02. > :15:05.things to get your teeth into. I was critical that our policy review was
:15:05. > :15:17.like a pregnant panda and nothing was emerging. You are not on
:15:17. > :15:19.Newsnight. Do not get carried away! Last year it was a very good speech
:15:19. > :15:23.but the criticism was that people Last year it was a very good speech
:15:23. > :15:27.did not row in behind it. That was because it was difficult to come
:15:27. > :15:31.behind the concept of one nation. Now, you have lots of policy ideas
:15:31. > :15:36.that people can debate and exemplify.
:15:36. > :15:43.Ed Miliband's speech last year was quite well received. Then it all
:15:43. > :15:47.seemed to fizzle away. We think everybody is listening as we do to
:15:47. > :15:49.every cough and burp at a Conference - they are not. The real test is
:15:49. > :15:55.will they be able to follow through - they are not. The real test is
:15:55. > :16:01.and sell these messages afterwards? The other interesting thing is the
:16:01. > :16:07.way we have all moved on to discuss it. It is the wrong sort of
:16:07. > :16:10.recovery? It is this issue of who is benefitting from the recovery. If
:16:10. > :16:14.the Government think that the nation will be grateful to them for
:16:14. > :16:20.delivering a recovery, not necessarily. Labour is hoping this
:16:20. > :16:24.is 1945. Andrew, what do we learn about the Labour election strategy
:16:24. > :16:29.from the policies that were announced? Is he still going, given
:16:29. > :16:38.the electoral arithmetic is on his side, it is still a 35% strategy? He
:16:38. > :16:42.denies it so vehemently. No politician, if you said that is what
:16:42. > :16:47.you were going to get, they would never have said it. I believe him
:16:47. > :16:54.when he says, "I don't want that." You see Francois Hollande in France.
:16:55. > :17:00.If you come with a brittle mandate, it will all go to grief very
:17:00. > :17:05.quickly. Labour's ambition, surely, has to be much better than 35%.
:17:05. > :17:12.These were policies designed to appeal to the middle-classes and the
:17:12. > :17:22.centre ground. The types of things... Middle-class people pay
:17:22. > :17:34.gas bills as well! Housing? Exactly. If it is populist Ed - it could be
:17:34. > :17:39.Red Ed and Populist Ed - how should the Tories play him? I think the
:17:39. > :17:46.Tories will be very pleased about this. I think he's left Planet
:17:46. > :17:50.Reality. I do not understand how anybody could be arguing people's
:17:50. > :17:54.living standards rise when the Government steps in and freezes
:17:54. > :18:01.prices. You and I lived through it in the 1970s. It wasn't popular. You
:18:01. > :18:05.have the Treasury subsidising people's mortgages. Does that make
:18:05. > :18:12.sense? No, I disagree with that policy. I want to get on to the big
:18:12. > :18:18.issue. Let's get on to Dame yek McBride. Jacqui, you must have been
:18:18. > :18:24.as surprised as the Shadow Chancellor what he was getting up
:18:24. > :18:30.to? I knew what Damien McBride was getting up to. The point is whether
:18:30. > :18:34.or not that was symptomatic of what everybody was doing. One of the most
:18:34. > :18:39.damaging things about his book is this sort of suggestion that somehow
:18:39. > :18:53.or another the whole of politics is like this. It is not a suggestion at
:18:53. > :18:57.all. It just so happens Gordon Brown's aide is leading the Labour
:18:57. > :19:00.Party today. It is a very convenient spin for you to say that Damien
:19:00. > :19:05.McBride's book is about how politics is corrupt. It isn't. It is about
:19:05. > :19:08.how Damien McBride and Gordon Brown, for whom he worked, and the two Eds,
:19:08. > :19:11.how they were corrupt. There is for whom he worked, and the two Eds,
:19:11. > :19:17.nothing in there about David Cameron, or Michael Gove, or Oliver
:19:17. > :19:20.Letwin. Most of the rest of the Labour Party. Do you believe Ed
:19:20. > :19:24.Balls when he said he didn't know anything about it? Hold on. Did you
:19:24. > :19:31.Balls when he said he didn't know believe Ed Balls? I believe Ed
:19:31. > :19:35.Balls. He knew nothing about this? He was on the phone every week to
:19:35. > :19:39.Damien McBride and you knew nothing about it? Most of us knew what was
:19:39. > :19:42.going on. The question is... You did know about it? The suggestion that
:19:42. > :19:47.Michael is making is that Ed was involved in it. I absolutely don't
:19:47. > :19:53.believe that that is the case. Andrew, you have done the definitive
:19:53. > :19:58.book on this? The problem is - and a lot of people watching - people say
:19:58. > :20:03.to me well, if you sort of all knew, why did nobody do anything about it?
:20:03. > :20:07.Talking from a journalistic perspective, if you were part of his
:20:07. > :20:11.client group of journalists, to whom he gave this stuff, you were
:20:11. > :20:14.unlikely to blow the whistle because you were being fed the stuff and you
:20:14. > :20:18.weren't going to bite the hand that fed you. Everyone else was in the
:20:19. > :20:22.position, like many Cabinet Ministers, like Jacqui, of having
:20:22. > :20:29.really strong suspicions this was going on, but it was very hard to
:20:29. > :20:35.get the cast-iron proof. I know many of Gordon's Cabinet Ministers said,
:20:35. > :20:40."You have to stop this." The Prime Minister sat there saying, "I know
:20:40. > :20:43.nothing about it." Alright. I remember a time when Alastair
:20:43. > :20:47.Campbell was doing very similar things. I remember the time when
:20:47. > :20:50.Charlie Whelan was doing similar things. It is symptomatic of the
:20:50. > :21:06.Labour Government from beginning to end. Alright. Already Tories are
:21:06. > :21:10.saints, of course(!) We will end it on that agreement that the Tories
:21:10. > :21:16.are not saints! Thank you both very much.
:21:16. > :21:19.Now, it's late, and all a bit of a blur - for obvious reasons - so pour
:21:19. > :21:22.yourself another pint of sweet German Liebfraumilch, because we
:21:22. > :21:25.have another Teutonic treat in store waiting in the wings - the ubercool
:21:25. > :21:29.German comedy ambassador, Henning Wehn, is here to explain the ongoing
:21:29. > :21:32.appeal of Angela Merkel. And if you fancy explaining the
:21:32. > :21:36.dubious appeal of This Week, shower us in faint praise as per usual on
:21:36. > :21:41.The Twitter, The Fleecebook and that new-fangled Interweb.
:21:41. > :21:45.Now, the world has been shocked this week by events in Kenya. On Saturday
:21:45. > :21:48.attackers entered a shopping centre in the capital city Nairobi shooting
:21:48. > :21:50.and throwing grenades at fleeing shoppers and taking hostages. A
:21:50. > :21:54.dramatic four-day siege followed with a group of Islamists from
:21:54. > :21:59.Somalia saying they were behind the attack putting radical terrorism
:21:59. > :22:02.back at the top of the news. In Britain, the Prime Minister chaired
:22:02. > :22:08.an emergency meeting on the Kenyan attack, which included British
:22:08. > :22:11.victims. But what are the chances that what happened at the Westgate
:22:11. > :22:17.shopping centre in East Africa could be replicated at Westfield's
:22:17. > :22:20.shopping centre in East London? We turned to our man in the know, the
:22:20. > :22:23.BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner. This is his roundup of the
:22:23. > :22:38.week. The attack began at midday on
:22:38. > :22:43.Saturday at Nairobi's Westgate shopping centre. It's a multi-storey
:22:43. > :22:51.complex, one of the newest in East Africa, and popular can Kenyans and
:22:51. > :22:55.expatriates. The attackers sprayed machine-gunfire and threw grenades.
:22:55. > :22:57.They appeared to target non-Muslims... Covering the attack
:22:57. > :23:03.story from here in the newsroom is a non-Muslims... Covering the attack
:23:03. > :23:07.bit of a case of mixed emotions. As a journalist, as the BBC security
:23:07. > :23:11.correspondent, this is what I do for a living so I'm glad that I'm around
:23:11. > :23:18.to be able to do it. As somebody who has been shot themselves several
:23:18. > :23:21.times, obviously it brings back some unpleasant memories. That doesn't
:23:21. > :23:23.stop me covering it objectively and trying to get to the bottom of
:23:23. > :23:30.stop me covering it objectively and what's happened.
:23:30. > :23:37.The Nairobi story is an incredibly important one, not just because of
:23:37. > :23:42.the horrendous high body count, but because this is something which
:23:42. > :23:48.could happen anywhere in the world. It's happened in Mumbai already and
:23:48. > :23:57.it begs the question - could it happen here in Britain?
:23:57. > :24:05.Fighting and winning the battle against terrorism is something
:24:05. > :24:11.that's in here, not just here. You can arrest people, you can track
:24:11. > :24:15.them down, you can try them, you can incarcerate them if found guilty.
:24:15. > :24:22.Ultimately, it is a battle of the minds. I think when we look back on
:24:22. > :24:25.this week it is really going to be quite an important one,
:24:25. > :24:29.historically. There will be the tragedy, the bloodstain of the
:24:29. > :24:33.Nairobi attack that people will never forget. It also marks the
:24:33. > :24:39.beginning of whal hopefully will be a journey to success in resolving
:24:39. > :24:48.Iran's differences with the United States. At last, finally, after
:24:48. > :24:54.eight years of vitriolic rhetoric coming out of Iran, there is now a
:24:54. > :24:58.seemingly very moderate President, Dr Hassan Rouhani, who has still the
:24:58. > :25:00.power and the blessing of the Supreme Leader in that country and
:25:00. > :25:05.he is reaching out to the United States saying, "Let's do a deal on
:25:05. > :25:11.the nuclear issue." That issue is that America and many other
:25:12. > :25:17.countries suspect Iran of secretly building a nuclear bomb - Iran says
:25:17. > :25:22.it isn't - and they are saying let's get sanctions lifted. If the US and
:25:22. > :25:25.Iran can have a working relationship, the Middle East and
:25:25. > :25:29.the world will be a much safer place.
:25:29. > :25:37.Frank joins us now. Welcome back to This Week. How seriously do you
:25:37. > :25:44.think our Security Services take a Mumbai-style attack in Britain?
:25:44. > :25:47.Extremely seriously. When Mumbai got attacked five years ago and over 160
:25:47. > :25:51.people were killed - and that hostage situation went on for three
:25:52. > :25:55.days. It took the Indians a long time to react to it. The propaganda
:25:55. > :25:59.value for the terrorists was enormous. That, as Jacqui knows
:25:59. > :26:01.because she was Home Secretary at the time, was a real wake-up call,
:26:01. > :26:05.because she was Home Secretary at not just here in Britain, but for a
:26:05. > :26:10.lot of countries, they thought, "Crikey, if this happened here in
:26:10. > :26:13.Britain, could we deal with it?" One of the first things they discovered
:26:13. > :26:17.was that the police were undergunned, they didn't have the
:26:17. > :26:22.firepower back then to take on those kind of jihadists. They would not
:26:22. > :26:25.have been able to contain them whilst Special Forces were fetched
:26:25. > :26:30.from their barracks. So a lot of thought has had to go into that.
:26:30. > :26:34.They have held a whole series of exercises across the country called
:26:35. > :26:38.Wooden Pride, where the police have been working with SAS and SBS to
:26:39. > :26:42.fine tune how quickly they would respond to something like that.
:26:42. > :26:45.Prime Ministers and Home Secretaries since then have resolved that if
:26:45. > :26:50.something like that was to happen in Britain, they would move very fast
:26:50. > :26:54.and very decisively to cordon it off and deal probably rather more
:26:54. > :26:58.quickly with the terrorists than the Kenyan authorities did. They
:26:58. > :27:03.appeared to hesitate in Nairobi. There was a lot of confusion. In
:27:03. > :27:09.Mumbai and Nairobi, the police were outgunned? Yes, they were. It took
:27:09. > :27:16.them a while to arrive. I don't think we should get complacent about
:27:16. > :27:24.- in Europe, we now how to deal with -- we know how to deal with this.
:27:24. > :27:29.Look at Oslo. He was a right-wing fascist extremist, more or less a
:27:29. > :27:36.lone operator and the guy killed dozens o f people by himself. It
:27:36. > :27:38.appeared to be a complex attack, an explosion followed by all these
:27:38. > :27:44.people being gunned down. It was just him. As Frank mentioned, you
:27:44. > :27:50.were Home Secretary. What changed after Mumbai? As Frank said,
:27:50. > :27:54.remember an important element of the counterterrorism strategy was the
:27:54. > :27:59.idea that you would prepare to protect. So you have to, when you
:27:59. > :28:02.are faced with the potential that that might be the way in which
:28:02. > :28:05.terrorists will want to attack, to think about what preparation is
:28:05. > :28:10.necessary and to question the capacity that there is in place. So,
:28:10. > :28:15.we asked questions. We thought about the way in which, whether or not how
:28:15. > :28:19.that risk had been heightened and what might be done to mitigate it.
:28:19. > :28:25.We don't have Special Forces all over the country, do we? Well, we
:28:25. > :28:32.have... Do we? They are on short notice to move. In Hereford -
:28:32. > :28:37.Newcastle is a long way. Yes. Of course, it is not going to be
:28:37. > :28:41.possible to and nor would you want to have armed people all-around
:28:41. > :28:46.waiting to be able to deal with something like that. Of course. It
:28:47. > :28:52.is possible to make sure that people are prepared to know what to do as
:28:52. > :28:57.quickly as possible, are vigilant about the potential start of
:28:57. > :29:00.something like that and remember, you also need to keep people
:29:00. > :29:04.prepared for other forms of attack as well. So, at that point, what we
:29:04. > :29:09.thought was most likely was an attack on a crowded place with a
:29:09. > :29:13.bomb, so there was a large amount of preparation that goes into that. It
:29:13. > :29:17.is never possible to close off every risk. It is important to take, to
:29:17. > :29:21.look at what's happened and use that... I'm not totally reassured we
:29:21. > :29:27.would be able to respond in the way we would. A lot of commentary said
:29:27. > :29:34.Al-Qaeda is going local now and you may think Nairobi fits into that. It
:29:34. > :29:39.is a local dispute, Somalia. Kenyan troops involved there. We understand
:29:39. > :29:44.a lot of Westerners are involved in Al-Qaeda and Somalia. At some stage
:29:44. > :29:48.these people could - Brits as well - these could come back, they are
:29:48. > :29:53.trained, they are now experienced, they know how to handle guns, we are
:29:53. > :29:59.potentially on the firing line? Indeed, we are. We are so much in
:29:59. > :30:04.the firing line that - we know about this. Fortunately, our intelligence
:30:04. > :30:17.has foiled many plots so far. So far. We cannot rely on that being
:30:17. > :30:22.the case. I think it is unrealistic to imagine at the beginning of an
:30:22. > :30:27.attack like this your police force could jut gun the terrorists and if
:30:27. > :30:30.you have 13 terrorists who are advancing with grenades, that is
:30:30. > :30:33.very difficult. On the other hand, I thought it was probably ludicrous
:30:34. > :30:37.when I heard suggested this week that we would have spot checks in
:30:37. > :30:42.shopping centres and search people's handbags. That is not the nature of
:30:42. > :30:50.the terrorist who is coming into these situations.
:30:50. > :30:57.When Obama said two years ago that Al-Qaeda was on the path to defeat
:30:57. > :31:02.coming he was wrong. I never signed up to the idea that this is an
:31:02. > :31:06.endgame, that you end up winning or losing. You can only reduce
:31:06. > :31:11.terrorism, like burglary, to a manageable level. I know that sounds
:31:11. > :31:14.callous towards victims of terrorism, I am one myself, but it
:31:14. > :31:20.is not something you win or lose because it is dynamic, fluid, it
:31:20. > :31:26.moves. The other thing with Al-Qaeda, it might have been the
:31:26. > :31:30.case that the traditional main part of Al-Qaeda began to be defeated,
:31:30. > :31:36.but what you saw was what I have heard described as franchising of
:31:36. > :31:40.the ideology and methodology. That is what you see in organisations
:31:40. > :31:49.like Al-Shabab and others around the world. What makes you so sure, which
:31:49. > :31:55.I took from that film, that Hassan Rouhani, you described him as very
:31:55. > :31:59.moderate, and that he is not just playing us like a fiddle, and also
:31:59. > :32:06.the way North Korea did. How can we be sure? We cannot. The proof will
:32:06. > :32:10.be whether Iran is transparent and accountable in its nuclear
:32:10. > :32:17.programme. This is about enrichment of uranium. Iran has the right to
:32:17. > :32:19.civil nuclear energy. Obama said that this week. If you go to Iran,
:32:19. > :32:23.civil nuclear energy. Obama said many Iranians will tell you they
:32:23. > :32:29.have a right to a nuclear weapons, because Pakistan has it, Israel has
:32:29. > :32:33.it, etc. Leave that aside, let's say they are not producing a bomb. Why
:32:33. > :32:38.do they need to enrich uranium so far beyond the point at which it is
:32:38. > :32:42.used for civil purposes? They have to be much more transparent about
:32:42. > :32:46.that. In return, they will want sanctions lifted. Iran has set this
:32:46. > :32:51.ambitious goal of three to six months. He has a mandate from his
:32:51. > :32:55.people to get those sanctions lifted. Unlike the previous
:32:55. > :33:01.relatively moderate, you are right, he is not very moderate, that was a
:33:02. > :33:07.slip of the tongue. Compared to Ahmadinejad, he is moderate. But it
:33:07. > :33:11.could just be softly spoken, the mood music is good but the same
:33:11. > :33:14.old, same old under the surface. Proof will be whether they are
:33:14. > :33:20.prepared to do a deal and open up their nuclear facilities to the
:33:20. > :33:24.International Atomic Energy Agency. What is your take on it? I am less
:33:24. > :33:29.International Atomic Energy Agency. optimistic than Frank. So far,
:33:29. > :33:32.nothing has happened, other than a change of language. There has been
:33:32. > :33:37.no change in the transparency of Iran, no firm proposal for any
:33:38. > :33:42.action. The Israelis are certainly extremely dubious about the whole
:33:42. > :33:46.thing. They could be playing for time. We could spend six months
:33:46. > :33:50.investigating and not get any further. So it must be, the way the
:33:50. > :33:54.United States must handle it must be that they get to the point of living
:33:54. > :33:59.whether there will be more transparency or not very quickly. So
:33:59. > :34:04.the Americans actually need at least as short a deadline as is being
:34:04. > :34:09.suggested by the Iranians. He has changed the terms of trade, this new
:34:09. > :34:16.president. It has changed the atmosphere. Completely. They clearly
:34:16. > :34:21.want to do a deal. Iran is a bust country. It is a magnificent place
:34:21. > :34:27.with an ancient history and it is bust. It has rising unemployment,
:34:27. > :34:32.rising prices, all of that -- statistics are going in the wrong
:34:32. > :34:37.direction. But a young, well-educated population. They are
:34:37. > :34:43.fed up with sanctions and isolation. The supreme leader, ayatollahs
:34:43. > :34:50.Khamenei, has given his blessing and said, get us out of this isolation.
:34:50. > :34:55.You think so? He is only going to let him go so far. The Iranians
:34:55. > :34:59.revolutionary guards are the real power the real military power on
:34:59. > :35:01.that side the Gulf. Their capacity to make mischief in the region is
:35:01. > :35:06.pretty big. The Gulf Arab states, to make mischief in the region is
:35:06. > :35:09.British allies, do not trust them. They view Iran as an existential
:35:09. > :35:12.threat, even without the nuclear bomb.
:35:12. > :35:15.Now, two supermarkets have today withdrawn a controversial Hallowe'en
:35:15. > :35:18.outfit, after widespread criticism. Asda and Tesco have apologised and
:35:18. > :35:21.claim their Michael Portillo fancy dress costume of emerald-green satin
:35:21. > :35:29.shirt, rubber face mask, and two-foot high quiff is no longer
:35:29. > :35:33.available in their stores. Alastair Campbell, who has written of his own
:35:33. > :35:37.depressing experiences on This Week, branded the costume "totally
:35:37. > :35:40.unacceptable". "We are trying to change attitudes towards Michael
:35:40. > :35:44.Portillo so people do not stigmatise him, and something like this comes
:35:44. > :35:49.along and it reminds you we are basically still living in the dark
:35:49. > :35:55.ages". Well said Alistair, but why is Michael considered so uncool? And
:35:55. > :35:58.is that a stupid question? We decided to answer it and put
:35:58. > :36:13.political coolness in this week's Spotlight.
:36:13. > :36:23.Three cheers, and terms, as Angela Merkel wins office yet again, in
:36:23. > :36:31.what some say was more a personal contest than a political one.
:36:31. > :36:45.TRANSLATION: As the jubilate Shannon shows, we can be happy about this
:36:45. > :36:50.super result. This is one former scientist who seems to have cracked
:36:50. > :37:00.the chemistry of being cool. But does it matter if a politician is
:37:00. > :37:02.thought of as cool? Tony Blair rode the cool Britannia waives right into
:37:02. > :37:04.Downing Street. And Ed Miliband obviously feels he needs to address
:37:04. > :37:10.the issue, with a conference speech that mocked his reputation for being
:37:10. > :37:14.a bit of a nerd. She said I was an action hero who mysteriously
:37:14. > :37:21.appeared out of nowhere. And she said that Ed was actually
:37:21. > :37:26.attractive. And not geeky at all. In a week when Apple was voted the
:37:26. > :37:33.coolest brand, does this prove that geek Chic has the power to make it
:37:33. > :37:41.to number one again -- after all? Henning Wehn joins us again. Good to
:37:41. > :37:49.see you. Am I right in thinking that Angela Merkel is so uncool that it
:37:49. > :37:52.makes her cool? Probably. Over the past few years, everybody realised
:37:52. > :37:57.nobody could have done any better in the role than she did, so there was
:37:57. > :38:03.no reason to vote for anybody else. She had no competition. The parties
:38:03. > :38:07.competed, but the Social Democrats, the Green leader, the other leaders,
:38:07. > :38:13.the left-wing party, their leaders were nowhere near her in terms of
:38:13. > :38:19.public acclaim. Probably not. Again, it was a strange election, as
:38:19. > :38:23.the social Democrat party leader would have also made a very good
:38:23. > :38:28.Chancellor. There was no reason to change the driver. Angela Merkel
:38:28. > :38:29.does a great job. It is the same challenge as before, keeping the
:38:29. > :38:34.European Union going. I think she is challenge as before, keeping the
:38:34. > :38:39.the right person to do it. Angela Merkel does not seem to care very
:38:39. > :38:44.much what people think of her. She made sure she won the election, so
:38:44. > :38:47.she definitely cares what people think. She does not seem to care
:38:47. > :39:01.that people think she is fuddy-duddy and uncool. She is the nation's
:39:01. > :39:02.mother. Yes, Shias. -- she is. The idea that a politician has to be
:39:02. > :39:08.cool is strange. The criticism of idea that a politician has to be
:39:08. > :39:14.politicians being dull, what is the alternative? Berlusconi or Putin.
:39:14. > :39:18.They are not dull, they are bonkers. That is a lot worse in a
:39:18. > :39:24.politician. I want them to be as dull as possible. Is Germany like
:39:24. > :39:32.Britain in that it is a mixture of very cool and very uncool? We can
:39:32. > :39:36.discuss the word cool all day long. The important thing is that people
:39:36. > :39:40.get up in the morning and have a job to go to, and at the end of the
:39:40. > :39:44.month they pay their tax amnesty not send the money offshore. As long as
:39:44. > :39:50.everybody does that, society will be all right. So we have a long way to
:39:50. > :39:54.go. You have been talking for five minutes and neither of you have
:39:55. > :39:58.mentioned leadership. Sometimes there are people who are clear
:39:58. > :40:05.leaders. Angela Merkel is one of them. Tony Blair was one, Thatcher
:40:05. > :40:09.was one. Funnily enough, Berlusconi and Putin, they are very clear
:40:09. > :40:17.leaders. They have all got it. I do not think cool comes into it. Isn't
:40:17. > :40:22.it also about authenticity? If people think you are doing a serious
:40:22. > :40:24.job, being who you are, that is why people like Ed Miliband's speech,
:40:24. > :40:28.because they liked the people like Ed Miliband's speech,
:40:28. > :40:40.self-deprecating thing, a glimpse of what he is actually like. He looked
:40:40. > :40:44.like he was acting. In the first five minutes coming attempt it to be
:40:44. > :40:52.a stand-up comedian. He always does that. That is the way he behaves.
:40:52. > :40:58.Stop giggling in the background, Michael Portillo. Shall we get the
:40:58. > :41:03.violins playing? There is no point being here unless I can do some
:41:03. > :41:08.facial expressions. We love it. Angela Merkel has leadership in a
:41:08. > :41:12.very modern German way, given Germany's past history with
:41:12. > :41:23.leadership. She is seen as a strong leader. The history cannot be
:41:23. > :41:26.escaped. It is also the reason why most people want her to form a
:41:26. > :41:31.coalition with the Social Democrats, not to have a minority
:41:31. > :41:37.government or to go with the Greens. In Germany there is a huge desire
:41:37. > :41:41.for broad consensus. Absolutely. The other one would have been a
:41:41. > :41:44.coalition that could not last. Mathematically, the Social Democrats
:41:44. > :41:49.could have a coalition with the Green Party and the commonest, but
:41:49. > :41:54.that would be the end of Germany as a going concern, really. So the
:41:54. > :41:59.grand coalition is the only option. There are some politicians who at
:41:59. > :42:10.that time were cool. Clinton was cool. Agreed? Yes, but also a great
:42:10. > :42:18.leader. Mr Blair was cool. Yes, and a great leader. Barack Obama is
:42:18. > :42:23.cool. And a terrible leader. You can recall but not a good leader.
:42:23. > :42:29.Definitely. I think of Clement Attlee, who is the ultimate uncool
:42:29. > :42:35.great leader. What makes a politician very cool is winning. If
:42:35. > :42:40.Angela Merkel had not one, everyone would have said, she has no policies
:42:40. > :42:43.and sits on the fence. Because she wins, what a great leader and the
:42:43. > :42:47.country can unite behind her. It is a bit like foot tall, politics. If
:42:47. > :42:49.country can unite behind her. It is you win the game, you are the best
:42:49. > :42:54.country can unite behind her. It is manager in the world. If you lose,
:42:54. > :43:08.you are clueless. Is David Cameron cool? No. No. I thought he was quite
:43:08. > :43:14.cool at the beginning. I think he is losing his cool as he loses his grip
:43:14. > :43:21.on his party. And this is where, actually, you are right about the
:43:21. > :43:28.whole leadership thing. When people are described as cool, I regard it
:43:28. > :43:31.as a sign of public naivete. Blair and Obama regarded as cool. I think
:43:31. > :43:35.as a sign of public naivete. Blair the public had great disappointment
:43:35. > :43:39.with both. Michael Gove has a pair of lederhosen summing trunks. I am
:43:39. > :43:44.glad we have not seen them. What are you up to at the moment? I'm
:43:44. > :43:50.starting a tour tomorrow all over the country, and Scotland.
:43:50. > :43:57.That's your lot for tonight folks. But not for us, because we're off to
:43:57. > :44:01.twerk the night away at Annabel's. But we leave you tonight with at
:44:01. > :44:05.least one politician who can carry off being cool. After all, it's far
:44:05. > :44:08.more important than having a functioning foreign policy.
:44:08. > :44:43.Nighty-night. Don't let Obama bite. Reverend Al Green was here.
:44:43. > :44:48.# I'm so in love with you. # Those guys didn't think I would do
:44:48. > :44:49.it. I told you I was going to do it.