:00:09. > :00:13.Denied it is Halloween, and This Week presents a political fright
:00:14. > :00:24.night! -- tonight. Not ghost trains but high-speed
:00:25. > :00:29.trains are causing Ed Miliband and Tory backbenchers to tremble with
:00:30. > :00:32.fear, but one Conservative and father of Boris Johnson thinks David
:00:33. > :00:38.Cameron will scare off his own supporters with his plans for HS2.
:00:39. > :00:45.The Government has lost its grip on high-speed rail, it is time to choke
:00:46. > :00:48.at off completely. Horrific scenes at Westminster as
:00:49. > :00:56.the big six energy monsters came to Parliament. The BBC's Emily Maitlis
:00:57. > :01:00.is doing a bit of ghostbusting. From these shadows, we promise you
:01:01. > :01:05.neither heat nor light, but don't think of it as gloomy darkness, we
:01:06. > :01:10.will call it shabby chic. And how frightened should we be of the
:01:11. > :01:14.secret state? More tales of spying on the public and mergers,
:01:15. > :01:15.terrifyingly smart journalist and author Malcolm Gladwell is here to
:01:16. > :01:26.startle us. It might sound spooky, but even the
:01:27. > :01:38.most powerful forces in the world can be defeated by an underdog.
:01:39. > :01:45.There is a nightmare on the This Week sofa!
:01:46. > :01:54.Evening, all, welcome to This Week, a show whose genius, like much of
:01:55. > :01:58.the Cabinet, is unproven. The good people of Kirkcaldy woke this
:01:59. > :02:01.morning to find themselves disenfranchised after the
:02:02. > :02:05.spectacular defenestration of their long-time Member of Parliament,
:02:06. > :02:08.yes, a certain Gordon Brown. Our former not so great leader and a
:02:09. > :02:18.shock resignation to a packed House of Commons, to a heartfelt cheers
:02:19. > :02:24.For He's A Jolly Good Fellow. Yeah, right! He was actually abroad, as
:02:25. > :02:27.usual, addressing not Parliament but the far more lucrative World
:02:28. > :02:32.Innovation Summit on Education in gas rich Qatar. Naturally! He
:02:33. > :02:37.declared himself an ex-politician. I know what you are thinking, that is
:02:38. > :02:41.not news, didn't the country make an ex-politician three years ago? Well,
:02:42. > :02:47.you would be wrong, because it turns out he is still on the Parliamentary
:02:48. > :02:51.payroll, trousering ?65,000 per year plus expenses as an MP. Although
:02:52. > :02:56.what he does for the dosh is a bit of a mystery, since he has made
:02:57. > :02:59.fewer appearances than the Loch Ness monster in off-season. Indeed, he
:03:00. > :03:04.has only been seen five times the election in 2010, and to put that
:03:05. > :03:08.into depressing perspective, Toby Young and Sally Bercow have sat on
:03:09. > :03:13.the This Week sofa more times than Gordon Brown has spoken in the House
:03:14. > :03:16.of Commons! We truly get the politics we deserve! Speaking of
:03:17. > :03:20.those clinging on by their bitten fingernails, I'm joined on the sofa
:03:21. > :03:25.denied by two people having an affair to remember, think of them as
:03:26. > :03:30.the Andy Coulson and Rebekah Brooks of late-night political chat, how
:03:31. > :03:35.did we get that through the lawyers?! I speak of
:03:36. > :03:39.#sadmanonatrain, Michael YouTube Portillo, and back as always, by
:03:40. > :03:50.absolutely no public demand whatsoever, Diane Abbott. -- Michael
:03:51. > :03:53.Choo-Choo Portillo. The international inspectors in Syria
:03:54. > :03:57.have announced that a significant quantity of chemical weapon making
:03:58. > :04:01.material has been destroyed. This process seems to be on track. It is
:04:02. > :04:05.quite a surprise to me, but it reminds us that the Russian
:04:06. > :04:09.initiative has had some success, but it also reminds me how much the news
:04:10. > :04:14.agenda has changed in such a short period of time. A few weeks ago we
:04:15. > :04:18.might have found ourselves at war in Syria, but David Cameron lost the
:04:19. > :04:21.vote in the House of Commons and seems to have lost his authority as
:04:22. > :04:25.Prime Minister. This seems a very long time ago. The poor people of
:04:26. > :04:28.Syria might reflect that the spotlight has moved on, and they are
:04:29. > :04:32.still dying in their thousands, but we don't seem to worry very much
:04:33. > :04:37.anymore because the chemical weapons are being dismantled. Do you believe
:04:38. > :04:43.it is happening? I do, because the international auditors are saying
:04:44. > :04:45.that. I think the Syrians have cartilage that they can do without
:04:46. > :04:50.chemical weapons. They will win anyway. Just look at the way that
:04:51. > :04:53.the West has backed off their opposition to the regime, because
:04:54. > :04:58.the focus is on chemical weapons, the wrong place to focus it, in my
:04:59. > :05:06.pew. Diane. Jeremy Hunt announced a big programme of hospital closures.
:05:07. > :05:09.I was in the House, four A in London, this will run and run, he
:05:10. > :05:14.has just lost in court over trying to lose one -- close one in
:05:15. > :05:26.Lewisham. It is not easy to close a hospital. It is not, for all parties
:05:27. > :05:30.. You would never know it was Halloween, but it was good of him to
:05:31. > :05:35.dress as a leprechaun! For train spotting anoraks right across the
:05:36. > :05:39.country, Michael Portillo's new series of railway journeys was more
:05:40. > :05:43.eagerly anticipated this week than the 8:14am or train from Sturminster
:05:44. > :05:47.Newton, and that is saying something. But in less important
:05:48. > :05:52.train use, MPs voted to approve funding for a new high-speed railing
:05:53. > :05:56.from London to Birmingham and then on to Manchester and Leeds, but is
:05:57. > :06:00.it value for money, and is it the right thing to do? We turned to
:06:01. > :06:04.Boris Johnson's dad Stanley, who just happens to live on the proposed
:06:05. > :06:06.route, so I think you can guess what his line will be. This is his take
:06:07. > :06:30.of the week. Like my model railway, the
:06:31. > :06:38.government's high-speed rail web project is, I think, bust. Can it be
:06:39. > :06:41.fixed? I very much doubt it. It was cooped up at the last minute by
:06:42. > :06:49.Labour to seem like an up to date party before the last election. --
:06:50. > :06:51.cooked. It is going to alienate Conservative voters up and down the
:06:52. > :06:54.country at a time when they are really under pressure, and the
:06:55. > :06:58.countryside is under pressure. We need to kill it now.
:06:59. > :07:08.You know, the business case just not add up. If it did, this would be a
:07:09. > :07:12.primarily private-sector project. Mrs Thatcher said there would be no
:07:13. > :07:16.public sector money for the Channel Tunnel, but here taxpayers are being
:07:17. > :07:20.asked to put up 50 billion and counting. This should be largely
:07:21. > :07:25.financed by the private sector, the private sector is running away, and
:07:26. > :07:29.that is the acid test. I have been an environmentalist all my life,
:07:30. > :07:35.don't let anyone tell you this is an environmental project. It is going
:07:36. > :07:39.to have a devastating effect on ancient woodlands and areas of
:07:40. > :07:41.outstanding national beauty, and even in towns, the little bits of
:07:42. > :07:57.green are going to go. Socially, this project is going to
:07:58. > :08:00.be catastrophic. There are 500,000 houses which are going to be
:08:01. > :08:05.blighted one way or another by the project. What is the government
:08:06. > :08:10.proposing? Derisory compensation affecting 2% of that total. And what
:08:11. > :08:13.is more, this is a project which, in terms of noise and disruption and
:08:14. > :08:20.general shambles, is going to go on for decades. The right course now is
:08:21. > :08:23.to devote a fraction of the money we are going to spend on HS2 into
:08:24. > :08:27.improving the existing networks. It can be done, and we have got to stop
:08:28. > :08:42.these high-speed train before it leaves the station, stop, stop! It
:08:43. > :08:47.has not stopped. Damn! Nul points... Is quick on the uptake, it
:08:48. > :08:52.did not stop! From the model railway club in King's Cross. They broken
:08:53. > :08:58.collection of toys that nobody wants to play within Westminster, Stan
:08:59. > :09:01.joins us. Let me go through to Choo-Choo, he says it has no
:09:02. > :09:06.economic or environmental case, no social case, what say you? I say
:09:07. > :09:11.that all the leading economies of the world have gone for high-speed
:09:12. > :09:16.rail, France, Italy, China, Japan, Korea. It would be ridiculous of
:09:17. > :09:21.Britain to think that we, uniquely, can get by without it. The most
:09:22. > :09:24.important reason for having high-speed rail is that the North
:09:25. > :09:27.and the south of the country needs to be linked. I think that the north
:09:28. > :09:30.of this country faces a perilous future without it, and the growth
:09:31. > :09:34.that is happening at the moment is basically happening in the
:09:35. > :09:37.south-east of England, and unless we link Manchester and London,
:09:38. > :09:41.particularly, the growth will continue to be in the south-east.
:09:42. > :09:47.All the leaders of the big northern cities are all calling for it. And
:09:48. > :09:54.all the businesses there, most of them. Can I be the minority here?
:09:55. > :09:59.You are the minority! The business case is not made. If it was,
:10:00. > :10:02.businesses would be lining to get in and invest. Think of the Channel
:10:03. > :10:08.Tunnel. The truth of the matter is that the business case is not made,
:10:09. > :10:12.and if it was truly made, it would be absolutely made, because if it
:10:13. > :10:18.counted in the cost of compensation for those 500,000 houses, that would
:10:19. > :10:22.put another ?40 billion on it. Since the earliest days of Victorian
:10:23. > :10:26.railways, they have not made money for the people who build or run
:10:27. > :10:30.them. So much of what the railways do for the economy is external to
:10:31. > :10:33.the railway. In other words, you cannot make passengers pay for it,
:10:34. > :10:37.but not the less it has these effects. You might as well say, why
:10:38. > :10:42.should we ever have had any railways? The development of Britain
:10:43. > :10:46.would have been unimaginable without railways, the development of any
:10:47. > :10:53.country without roads. We are 40 years behind Spain now. We do not
:10:54. > :11:00.have the huge expanses that Spain has... We do, the distance from
:11:01. > :11:06.London to Inverness... This will not go anywhere near Inverness. I want
:11:07. > :11:12.to make a point. Let him speak! The point I want to make is, really, why
:11:13. > :11:16.should the general public pay so that the fairly rich businessman,
:11:17. > :11:20.with his laptop, can save 20 minutes going from Birmingham to London? It
:11:21. > :11:24.does not seem fair. It will transform our economy. The reason
:11:25. > :11:28.that people ought to be willing to pay is, at the moment we have three
:11:29. > :11:31.high-speed trains per hour to Manchester, and in order to have
:11:32. > :11:34.that kind of service we have to take them away from Northampton and
:11:35. > :11:38.Milton Keynes. There is such limited capacity that every time more people
:11:39. > :11:42.want to travel to Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, you have to
:11:43. > :11:45.destroy the suburban services and people are travelling on crowded
:11:46. > :11:53.trains, they are having to spend more to get on them. He is right,
:11:54. > :11:57.you know! I think that it is a little bit naughty of Ed Balls,
:11:58. > :12:03.brilliant although he is, to play politics with this. This was a
:12:04. > :12:07.scheme which Labour launched, all of those Labour local authorities are
:12:08. > :12:13.in favour of it. What Ed is doing is a naughty new Labour thing, looking
:12:14. > :12:17.at the next day's headlines. What he says that cannot be for that is that
:12:18. > :12:22.you cannot write a blank check for it. Nobody has asked for a blank
:12:23. > :12:27.cheque. You have to bear down on the contingencies, they do seem a bit
:12:28. > :12:33.high. ?15 billion contingencies! Could you explain the Labour
:12:34. > :12:37.position on HS2? We support HS2, but obviously we want to be careful
:12:38. > :12:42.about the money. You launch this project, you see it is going over 50
:12:43. > :12:47.billion, how will you stop it? It is not going over 50 billion. People
:12:48. > :12:52.will say it would go over budget... They think they can do it within 17
:12:53. > :12:58.billion for the first stage. We delivered the limpets on time and to
:12:59. > :13:02.budget. And Terminal 5 and so on. We are talking about the West Coast
:13:03. > :13:07.Main Line, which already had a massive overbudget upgrade which did
:13:08. > :13:14.not do much for it. Overbudget and underachievement. The lines into
:13:15. > :13:19.Euston, which is where this will go, will already have the most
:13:20. > :13:24.capacity of any lines coming in, even in peak time capacity is only
:13:25. > :13:31.60%. So where is the capacity element? In the mid-1990s, there
:13:32. > :13:35.were half as many people travelling by train as there are today. 700
:13:36. > :13:41.million journeys then, 1.5 billion now, and it is going up by 2% per
:13:42. > :13:45.year. Victoria has capacity problems, Paddington has problems,
:13:46. > :13:49.Waterloo has capacity problems, Euston, which is where high speed
:13:50. > :13:56.will go to, does not have a capacity problem. But the lines do. You are
:13:57. > :13:59.asking people were the Milton Keynes services are going, the Northampton
:14:00. > :14:02.services are going, they have been reduced because we are running a
:14:03. > :14:10.Metro service between London and Manchester. You probably would
:14:11. > :14:13.oppose the railways when Stevenson was building Rocket, how could you
:14:14. > :14:22.put those iron machines on the rails. Used to walk in front with a
:14:23. > :14:31.red flag. That was a c It was a car. HS1 is way, way under capacity now.
:14:32. > :14:36.It connects London and Paris, but otherwise - HS2 isn't going to
:14:37. > :14:42.connect with HS1, there will be no link. HS1 does not connect cities in
:14:43. > :14:46.Britain. HS2 does, it connects all the cities. We are sympathetic to
:14:47. > :14:52.people like you who are worried about it going close to your back
:14:53. > :14:56.garden if the compensation isn't good enough, we should look at it.
:14:57. > :15:03.You cannot stand in the way of the development of the north of England.
:15:04. > :15:06.I'm for a man who does not believe in growth, for a - this constant
:15:07. > :15:10.filling demand because demand is there. We have to cut back on
:15:11. > :15:15.demand. That is what I think. I'm sorry to here that. What depressed
:15:16. > :15:23.me about your film was the fact that it would cost Tory votes so Cameron
:15:24. > :15:26.ought not to do. David Cameron thinks about being Prime Minister
:15:27. > :15:30.and doing the things that are proper to do as Prime Minister. The
:15:31. > :15:35.private-sector will build if it was allowed to a new runway at Heathrow.
:15:36. > :15:42.It wouldn't be Government money it would be private-sector. Actually.
:15:43. > :15:51.They won't go near HS2, doesn't that make you think? O no, they aren't
:15:52. > :15:54.economic. It has to be done by the state. Every high-speed railway
:15:55. > :15:59.system in the world, I think I'm right in saying, was built by the
:16:00. > :16:03.state. Yes. Most I think have been a financial and economic kiss
:16:04. > :16:07.disaster. Really? Haven't they opened regions in Spain and parts of
:16:08. > :16:11.France? If you look at France - If you are saying that the amount of
:16:12. > :16:15.money they cost has not been recouped from the fare paid, that is
:16:16. > :16:19.true, they transformed the economies. You can't take such a
:16:20. > :16:26.narrow view of what the railway is for. I'm perfectly happy to take a
:16:27. > :16:31.narrow view of almost anything. That is why you're not a member of
:16:32. > :16:40.parliament. That is why we have happy with a Cameron Government than
:16:41. > :16:47.an Johnson Government The money spent on the French railway system
:16:48. > :16:52.has deprived other parts of the French really way system. HS2 will
:16:53. > :16:56.deprive other parts of the rail network of crucial investment. It's
:16:57. > :17:04.bound to. Nonsense. We are planning to pay ?56 billion on transport on
:17:05. > :17:09.top of the ?50 billion for HS2 These are all astronomical figures. We
:17:10. > :17:15.have to cut back on public spending. This is a very good chance. Last
:17:16. > :17:20.word to you. Regardless of your view on whether we should do it or not,
:17:21. > :17:25.will it happen? Yes. Will it happen? Nope. There you go. Are you sure you
:17:26. > :17:33.are not being influenced by your view. Don't answer that. We ran out
:17:34. > :17:37.of time. Lovely to be here. It's late, very late, Diane doesn't
:17:38. > :17:41.have to get up in the morning anymore and can stay for as she
:17:42. > :17:45.likes in her scratcher late. But don't retire to the boudoir just
:17:46. > :17:47.yet because waiting in the wings, after years of pathetic begging
:17:48. > :17:49.letters, journalist, author, intellectual adventurer, Malcom
:17:50. > :18:01.Gladwell is here to explain why underdogs shouldn't be
:18:02. > :18:03.underestimated. I'm not sure he is right
:18:04. > :18:07.Don't forget to power-up your PC that smells of cat pee, get
:18:08. > :18:09.messaging just for the joy of being ignored by us on the infantile
:18:10. > :18:14.Twitter, the useless Fleecebook and the good old missionary position
:18:15. > :18:17.Interweb. Have you locked all the windows?
:18:18. > :18:23.Checked the back door? Well, pour yourself a glass of the
:18:24. > :18:26.blue stuff and come closer. Over the last few days, former Prime
:18:27. > :18:31.Ministers have been rising from the grave.
:18:32. > :18:36.Yes, the spectres of Major, Blair and now Brown have all come back to
:18:37. > :18:38.haunt us. Out vile spirits, the power of the
:18:39. > :18:42.Blue Nun compels you. We asked Newsnight's Emily Maitlis
:18:43. > :18:45.to brave the political house of horror for a political round up of
:18:46. > :18:51.the week and those of a nervous disposition be warned.
:18:52. > :19:16.Michael, you can hold my hand. . Just my hand!
:19:17. > :19:26.It's Hallowe'en, OK, Hallowe'en. If you encounter spooky tortured
:19:27. > :19:31.analogies or phraseology, references to the lights going off, at least
:19:32. > :19:37.you will know why. On this week we have searched high and low for
:19:38. > :19:39.derelict buildings, but as you know, property in the south-east is at a
:19:40. > :19:44.premium right now and the really good, the really derelict buildings
:19:45. > :19:48.have all been snatched up by American hedge funds for their hall
:19:49. > :19:52.between-themed roadshows. Still, we found one, and it's definitely cold.
:19:53. > :19:56.The reason it's cold has got nothing to do with the former, let us call
:19:57. > :20:00.them, headless occupants of this place, no, the reason it's cold is
:20:01. > :20:07.because it costs a lot to heat a room this size and, let us be crude,
:20:08. > :20:11.it is going to cost nearly 10% in the coming months. The major energy
:20:12. > :20:15.companies appeared before the Select Committee to explain why they are
:20:16. > :20:23.not horrid and we should like them before. They are referred to as the
:20:24. > :20:30.Big Six as if they were safari game. Inside they want to tell us they
:20:31. > :20:35.were furry Lynn chin chill yas. I acknowledge we are not trusted. . We
:20:36. > :20:40.need a thorough Competition Commission investigation, supported
:20:41. > :20:44.by Ofgem. The six say they are the victims of rising wholesale energy
:20:45. > :20:50.price, bye all sounds quite convincing until rather like the
:20:51. > :21:02.baddie hiding in the monks outfit on the staircase they were rumbled by
:21:03. > :21:08.one Scooby Do. We don't see nearly the same impact, specially on
:21:09. > :21:13.wholesale comodity costs. Ed Miliband hit the and custody hard.
:21:14. > :21:17.He is so on the side of the energy companies we should call them the
:21:18. > :21:24.Big Seven, the Prime Minister and the Big Six energy companies. He
:21:25. > :21:29.switched his supplier. Yes. He went for one of these insurgent companies
:21:30. > :21:34.to cut his bills. Isn't it typical, he comes here every week and attacks
:21:35. > :21:36.Tory policy, he goes home and he adopts Tory policy to help his own
:21:37. > :21:49.family. It's state intervention of another
:21:50. > :21:53.kind that is freaking the newspapers right now. Last night, a Royal
:21:54. > :21:58.Charter on press regulation was granted by the Privy Council after
:21:59. > :22:03.the industry lost its last-minute court battle. The editor of the
:22:04. > :22:09.Daily Telegraph took to Twitter where the 140 character limit leaves
:22:10. > :22:16.little room for ambiguitiy. Stances of us signing up for state
:22:17. > :22:19.interference, zero, he wrote. Of course, committing things
:22:20. > :22:25.electronically, let alone to paper, is a mugs' game these days. Spooks,
:22:26. > :22:30.as you know are everywhere. The US spy chiefs hit back insisting they
:22:31. > :22:35.work within the spirit and intent of the law. Just to clarify, that is
:22:36. > :22:41.American law, covering American citizens. Nothing that has been
:22:42. > :22:50.released has shown that we're trying to do something illegal or
:22:51. > :22:59.unprofessional. Ah, the Hallowe'en chestnuts, national security. Maybe
:23:00. > :23:07.they are right. Maybe Angela Merkel is knitting together a troops day
:23:08. > :23:11.plot that is going to kick off in Nebraska. Thank God for the NSA.
:23:12. > :23:15.Well, we are nearing the end. Less of a rollercoaster ride more of a
:23:16. > :23:22.creaky old ghost train. Before we go, we leave you with a few spirits
:23:23. > :23:26.of the past. Last week John Major rose from the meadows of Huntingdon
:23:27. > :23:31.to call for a windfall tax on energy companies. This week, it was the
:23:32. > :23:36.turn of Labour's most successfully electoral ghost ever, one Tony
:23:37. > :23:41.Blair. Then today an intervention from one, we might call, politically
:23:42. > :23:45.the living dead. The former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, described
:23:46. > :23:50.himself as an "ex-politician" news that may come as a surprise to his
:23:51. > :23:54.constituents. For Ed Miliband, there is probably no greater Hallowe'en
:23:55. > :24:01.treat than this. A former leader who is more than happy to quietly nail
:24:02. > :24:11.down his own coffin. Thank you. Goodbye. Oh, spooky. Miranda is
:24:12. > :24:17.here. Welcome back. How was that Select Committee on energy so
:24:18. > :24:22.useless? They did seem inadequate to the task. Yeah, useless? A serious
:24:23. > :24:27.one, which is trying to ask these Big Six companies quite why they
:24:28. > :24:32.have the consumer over a barrel to such an extent. It was enjoyable, I
:24:33. > :24:39.thought, to watch OVO man steal the show completely and get at least
:24:40. > :24:43.48-hours fantastic pub publicity for his own company. These committees,
:24:44. > :24:46.some of them are quite good. This one wasn't. They don't seem to do
:24:47. > :24:50.their homework in advance. They don't seem to say, right, here are
:24:51. > :24:54.the three lines we agree to take. You start with this questions, I
:24:55. > :25:02.will pick up. You will take over the other one. Don't let them go. They
:25:03. > :25:07.don't do any prep? When a committee is weak like that. They haven't read
:25:08. > :25:12.their brief. You get a wonderful brief from the clerks and can you
:25:13. > :25:20.can do your own research on this. The keen thing is to hunt as a pack.
:25:21. > :25:24.I say a, you a plus one and a plus three? They start out knowing what
:25:25. > :25:28.their questions will be. They don't listen what are the previous
:25:29. > :25:31.questions. They want a killer line to get on the telly and let the
:25:32. > :25:34.witness off the hook. That happens. It's a problem for the coalition
:25:35. > :25:38.because, you saw this at Question Time, the Tory backbenches, and the
:25:39. > :25:42.Lib Dems too, they had been prepped to raise questions about the
:25:43. > :25:46.economy. The there was plenty question after plenty question about
:25:47. > :25:51.jobs are up, growth is getting better, living standards, all that,
:25:52. > :25:55.but it kept being dragged back to energy prices. It is getting in the
:25:56. > :25:59.way of the coalition' narrative. They can't get it onto their ground?
:26:00. > :26:04.Absolutely. It's not just about the issue of energy prices important
:26:05. > :26:08.that those are, that issue speaks to a wider point about cost of living.
:26:09. > :26:13.It is this line from Ed Miliband that this particular recovery, this
:26:14. > :26:16.in coming tide won't lift everyone's boat. That is a huge problem for the
:26:17. > :26:19.Government. Lots of stuff next week about wage levels as well. That is
:26:20. > :26:26.another huge problem for the story of the recovery and whether it is
:26:27. > :26:29.helping the population as a whole. The Government each week has a
:26:30. > :26:33.different response. Last week it was about removing green taxes. This
:26:34. > :26:38.week it is about having a year-long inquiry as to what is going on with
:26:39. > :26:47.the energy companies and quicker switching, they are keeping the
:26:48. > :26:53.story going. It this notion that Cameron isn't in touch with people's
:26:54. > :26:57.lives. That was a John Major's point. Since Ed Miliband made the
:26:58. > :27:00.speech at the Labour conference he set the political weather on this.
:27:01. > :27:05.He could be trumped if the coalition get its act together, they could
:27:06. > :27:09.announce at the Autumn Statement in the first week in December, we will
:27:10. > :27:13.not freeze your bills, we will put levies on to general taxation. We
:27:14. > :27:18.will get rid of others, we will cut your bills? Yeah. George Osborne
:27:19. > :27:23.could shoot his fox and George Osborne is up to that, a lot of
:27:24. > :27:28.these levies they can't get out of them legally. Some of them came in
:27:29. > :27:32.with the Climate Change Act, others they would have to change the law.
:27:33. > :27:36.You are quite right. The Lib Dems aren't keen to go down this route?
:27:37. > :27:40.They aren't, the green agenda is very important for the Lib Dems.
:27:41. > :27:45.They think it is a key part of being a responsible Government, planning
:27:46. > :27:49.are for the future and maintaining a diversified - They have to cling to
:27:50. > :27:55.something having dumped to many other issues. I don't know what made
:27:56. > :28:01.me say that. Unkind. A saucer of milk for my friend. What do you make
:28:02. > :28:06.about your friends in Unite targeting people's homes,
:28:07. > :28:10.Grangemouth? I don't know the truth of this. We have pictures showing
:28:11. > :28:17.them outside a manager's home. We haven't got them to show now. We
:28:18. > :28:22.will when I interview - Where do you buy a blowup rat. It's about the
:28:23. > :28:28.size of a house. It's not even Rowland Rat. It's not a nice rat.
:28:29. > :28:36.That is not proper behaviour, is it? People are entitled to demonstrate.
:28:37. > :28:40.D's not a question, did it happen, Mr McCluskey defended what happened
:28:41. > :28:46.they called it leveraging tactics? There is such a thing as freedom of
:28:47. > :28:51.expression. I think the demonisation of ewe night and Len McCluskey has
:28:52. > :28:55.gone too far. You think it's all right to turn at a manager's home
:28:56. > :29:00.and demonstrate outside the home where the wife and the kids are
:29:01. > :29:05.there and the manager is not? We don't know what happened, do we?
:29:06. > :29:09.McCluskey said that is all right. You can take the fight to the
:29:10. > :29:14.managers, they shouldn't be allowed to go back to their cosy homes. That
:29:15. > :29:19.is the Unite position. If it's legal. No-one is saying they did
:29:20. > :29:25.anything illegal? No, unpleasant. Well... If I turned outside your
:29:26. > :29:28.home and started shouting at you through the window it may be legal,
:29:29. > :29:35.it wouldn't be pleasant. We would assume you were a member of the
:29:36. > :29:38.press. Yes. You may wonder why we aren't talking about the hacking
:29:39. > :29:42.trial, under the law, as it is in Britain, with contempt of court and
:29:43. > :29:48.so on, the media is only allowed to report the actual factual statements
:29:49. > :29:53.that were made,, we cannot comment in anyway. As much as we would love
:29:54. > :29:57.to. I will interview Len McCluskey on the Sunday Politics this week and
:29:58. > :30:04.see if I can get answers out of him, unlike you.
:30:05. > :30:11.David Cameron returns to the Unite theme at PMQs, he will keep doing
:30:12. > :30:16.it. He has got nothing else to say, it is not cutting through with the
:30:17. > :30:19.general public. The Grangemouth crisis was a serious industrial
:30:20. > :30:25.policy disaster looming, and now it has been solved, it has just turned
:30:26. > :30:29.into more ammunition for David Cameron's campaign against the
:30:30. > :30:35.Labour links. What did you make of your former hero, the former great
:30:36. > :30:41.leader of this nation with his description of himself as an
:30:42. > :30:45.ex-politician? A bit difficult. The truth is it reminded me that, since
:30:46. > :30:49.2010, I have only seen him in Parliament three times, you say he
:30:50. > :30:55.has been there five times. We think he has spoken five times. I think it
:30:56. > :31:00.gives a psychological insight, he was destroyed by having lost the
:31:01. > :31:04.premiership. When I lost my seat, I used to describe myself as the
:31:05. > :31:09.former Michael Portillo. Your world has collapsed. But other leaders...
:31:10. > :31:15.I remember Edward Heath, he was very bitter, God knows, the great silk,
:31:16. > :31:20.they called him, but he was always there, he took part in debates. John
:31:21. > :31:27.Major, after 1987, he took part in debates. Tony Blair walked out and
:31:28. > :31:33.was never seen again. That is another way of doing it, not on the
:31:34. > :31:36.public payroll. I think Gordon Brown will be treated better by history
:31:37. > :31:39.than his contemporaries, but it would help that he contributed in
:31:40. > :31:43.Parliament. Not when Alistair Campbell publishes the whole of his
:31:44. > :31:49.book. What do you know about that book? I think there is more to come.
:31:50. > :31:55.You heard it here first. Should he stand down? I think so, don't you? I
:31:56. > :31:58.agree with Michael that this is yet another psychological insight into
:31:59. > :32:05.this really rather fascinating but deeply flawed individual who...
:32:06. > :32:09.Should he stand-down? It is not for me to say what he should do, it is
:32:10. > :32:15.for the people of Dunfermline. Or Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath! I suspect
:32:16. > :32:20.he will, too, because he's not showing enough interest to want to
:32:21. > :32:26.bother. OK, we believe it there for now. Miranda, thank you. As a
:32:27. > :32:29.regular pundit on This Week and a regular candidate for leader of the
:32:30. > :32:37.Labour Party and a former leading light in the crack public health
:32:38. > :32:43.team... Sorry, Diane is well used to being a big fish in a stagnant pond!
:32:44. > :32:49.What about the also-rans like Michael who never reached the
:32:50. > :32:52.dizzying heights of Diane? Never to appear on Celebrity Come Dine With
:32:53. > :32:55.Me, do they still have a chance to make it big? We're not sure, that is
:32:56. > :33:11.why we are putting underdogs in the spotlight.
:33:12. > :33:16.It appears David and Goliath still exist in the Middle East. After a
:33:17. > :33:22.handful of women hits the road this week to take a stand against the
:33:23. > :33:26.Saudi Arabia ban on women drivers. Syrian rebels may have one less
:33:27. > :33:30.thing to be after the announcement that the regime's chemical weapons
:33:31. > :33:35.are finally being put out of action, allegedly. In London, the big six
:33:36. > :33:41.energy Goliaths appeared before a parliamentary select committee. The
:33:42. > :33:49.MPs' slings failed to find their target. How can these profits be
:33:50. > :33:53.fair? If I do not make a 5% profit in my business, I cannot afford to
:33:54. > :33:58.continue employing my 20,000 people, who are equally members of
:33:59. > :34:02.society, and I cannot afford to operate the company. In Washington,
:34:03. > :34:06.spy chiefs maintain they are defending US citizens by turning
:34:07. > :34:15.their American Eagle I on everyone else. It is invaluable to us to know
:34:16. > :34:20.where countries are coming from, what their policies are, how that
:34:21. > :34:25.would impact us across a whole range of issues. So in a world of
:34:26. > :34:29.invincible Goliaths, what chance do modern-day Davids have? Or is it a
:34:30. > :34:39.case that the underdog has more power than we might ever realise?
:34:40. > :34:42.David and Goliath, we are joined by Malcolm Gladwell to talk about
:34:43. > :34:46.this. Welcome to the programme. Why are we wrong to assume, as most of
:34:47. > :34:53.us due, that the Saudi women trying to get the right to drive won't? One
:34:54. > :34:59.of the big themes of my book is about the weapons of the spirit,
:35:00. > :35:06.about whether things like anger, persistence, motivation, shame me
:35:07. > :35:15.how well they stack up against material resources, formal
:35:16. > :35:18.authority, weapons, troops. And the central argument of the book is that
:35:19. > :35:24.those weapons of the spirit matter a good deal more than we sometimes
:35:25. > :35:27.assume, and so the fact that Saudi women can stage a protest and then
:35:28. > :35:32.can use social media to spread that around the world, and can bring an
:35:33. > :35:37.extraordinary amount of attention to this one issue, it matters. It is
:35:38. > :35:42.not a trivial thing at all. But will they end up being able to drive? I
:35:43. > :35:48.don't know. And you optimistic about it? I sort of an. Have you been to
:35:49. > :35:53.Saudi Arabia? I have never been. There is a world of difference, a
:35:54. > :36:00.bigger difference between Dubai and Saudi Arabia and there is between
:36:01. > :36:05.Alabama and New York. If you look at the recent history of social and
:36:06. > :36:09.political protest, what do we learn from Martin Luther King and Nelson
:36:10. > :36:17.Mandela and on and on? What we learn is that the ability to hold the
:36:18. > :36:21.abuses of power up to the world, and just get an emotional and
:36:22. > :36:24.psychological response to that, that can be extraordinarily effective in
:36:25. > :36:28.bringing that kind of power to heal. Is that what you mean when you
:36:29. > :36:32.talk about the advantages and disadvantages? That idea is
:36:33. > :36:38.something that I spent a lot of time on, which is that when people are
:36:39. > :36:42.robbed of formal authority, they are pushed towards certain kinds of
:36:43. > :36:46.strategies and approaches that they would never otherwise have
:36:47. > :36:51.considered. So I have a chapter about Martin Luther King and how he
:36:52. > :37:01.outwits his opponents in Birmingham, Alabama. He has no advantages over
:37:02. > :37:05.them. They control the courts, they control politics, they control all
:37:06. > :37:11.the resources. What does he have? He simply has his creativity and his
:37:12. > :37:16.intelligence. But he also had a big chunk of the federal government
:37:17. > :37:18.behind them. He had to use them, the chapter is about how artfully he
:37:19. > :37:27.manipulated public opinion. He played a trick, a magnificent,
:37:28. > :37:33.hilarious, brilliant trick that King plays on the media in Birmingham,
:37:34. > :37:37.Alabama. In Little Rock Arkansas, the governor would not let the black
:37:38. > :37:40.kids go to the high school in the centre of Little Rock, and
:37:41. > :37:48.Eisenhower it was then, not a Democrat, he federalised the
:37:49. > :37:51.National Guard. These people had... Nobody is fertilising the National
:37:52. > :37:59.Guard and Saudi Arabia! No, but the fascinating thing about the rise of
:38:00. > :38:03.social media and the digital revolution that we have seen is to
:38:04. > :38:11.what extent does it feed into these weapons of the spirit to give people
:38:12. > :38:17.who lack access to formal means of authority and power a voice, and the
:38:18. > :38:23.ability to shame? A lot of this, the whole Saudi protest is about shame.
:38:24. > :38:28.And shame is an incredibly powerful emotion it turns out, in political
:38:29. > :38:33.arenas. Do you buy this theory? Yes, I find is plausible. If you talk
:38:34. > :38:38.about David and Goliath, one theory is that David is small, but the
:38:39. > :38:42.other is that he is brave and pugnacious and audacious, all of
:38:43. > :38:46.those things. And you know, thinking about politics, you see that again
:38:47. > :38:51.and again, Margaret Thatcher came from nowhere, Ed Miliband defeated
:38:52. > :38:56.David Miliband. In this case, confusingly, the Goliath is called
:38:57. > :39:00.David... We are following you! OSHA media does make it easier for
:39:01. > :39:05.underdogs. My favourite is the Scottish schoolgirl who photographed
:39:06. > :39:11.her school dinners and it went all over the world. They tried to stop
:39:12. > :39:15.photographing the school dinner and it caused a pro, a little girl in
:39:16. > :39:21.Scotland who tried to block about dinner. The authority had to change,
:39:22. > :39:26.that is a good example. I bet that is not in the book! There's not
:39:27. > :39:32.another Scotland in my book. That could be said many books! We have
:39:33. > :39:38.always known the power of shame in local contexts, in a small town. It
:39:39. > :39:41.is an incredibly powerful emotion. What has happened now is that we
:39:42. > :39:46.have been able to take the same social dynamics that used to only
:39:47. > :39:49.operate in very small, tightly knit communities and magnify them.
:39:50. > :39:54.Because of the digital revolution. How does this work in Syria, then?
:39:55. > :40:00.Well, it is early to tell what is going to happen in Syria. The
:40:01. > :40:05.beginning of the whole thing, a man set fire to himself in June is
:40:06. > :40:16.here, and everything else followed from that, extraordinary. In
:40:17. > :40:21.Tunisia. The English love Eddie the Eagle Edwards and the Jamaican
:40:22. > :40:27.bobsleigh team we love the underdog. Do we share a little Jamaican... My
:40:28. > :40:36.mother is Jamaican. I was looking at your hair! Don't get carried away
:40:37. > :40:40.here. There has been examples, the velvet revolution may be one
:40:41. > :40:46.example, we have seen examples of people power, and we have seen
:40:47. > :40:51.Tiananmen Square. At no time in David and Goliath do I pretend that
:40:52. > :40:55.these kinds of... The weapons available to underdogs do not
:40:56. > :41:00.guarantee triumph. That is ridiculous. All I am saying is that
:41:01. > :41:04.there are, if we do a more sophisticated accounting of the
:41:05. > :41:08.advantages and disadvantages that each side has, we realise the
:41:09. > :41:13.battles are an awful lot more even than we would imagine. Nobody is
:41:14. > :41:19.saying that David always beats Goliath. He did one time! But at the
:41:20. > :41:23.beginning of the book, I read tell the story, the biblical story,
:41:24. > :41:27.pointing out that David's weapon, the slain, is one of the most
:41:28. > :41:33.devastating weapons available in ancient times. The stopping power of
:41:34. > :41:40.the rock that came from the sling is a bullet fired from a handgun, it is
:41:41. > :41:44.incredibly... When he decides to break the rules, he has superior
:41:45. > :41:48.technology. That is a very interesting fact to keep in mind.
:41:49. > :41:55.And it is not entirely new, even the digital, because in the wall, the
:41:56. > :41:59.role of the Wall coming down, the freeing up of Eastern Europe from
:42:00. > :42:03.Soviet supremacy, the fax machine played a role in that, mobile
:42:04. > :42:07.phones, satellite TV. That is always the case. It has always been the
:42:08. > :42:12.case that underdogs, by virtue of being shut out of the status quo,
:42:13. > :42:16.the first to exploit the next wave of technology. So we could go back
:42:17. > :42:30.to the French Revolution and the role of the printing press,
:42:31. > :42:33.pamphleteer... In politics the underdog can come through, the
:42:34. > :42:37.prospective Democratic candidate for mayor in New York, he went from
:42:38. > :42:43.being bottom to being the main contender. Underdogs can win. Very
:42:44. > :42:51.British, nothing more British than that. Malcolm Gladwell, thanks for
:42:52. > :42:58.being here. That is your lot for tonight, folks, but not for us. At
:42:59. > :43:02.Lulu's it is warm, cheaper than putting the heating on. It is
:43:03. > :43:06.Halloween, and people like to be scared, so we leave you tonight with
:43:07. > :43:15.some frankly terrifying footage that came to light this week. Apparently
:43:16. > :43:20.this is what passes for entertainment on BBC Two these days,
:43:21. > :43:24.no wonder nobody is watching. Night night, don't let your private dancer
:43:25. > :43:27.bite.