:00:00. > :00:10.Tonight, This Week heads into the Westminster jungle. Political big
:00:11. > :00:14.beast John Major causes a rumble, claiming there are too many posh
:00:15. > :00:17.boys in Britain's top jobs. Celebrity classics professor Mary
:00:18. > :00:28.Beard has taken up the Dingo Dollar Challenge. I flirted with eye muscle
:00:29. > :00:32.to, get me out of here. To be honest, I think going on this week
:00:33. > :00:35.was humiliation enough. Green shoots in the undergrowth, as
:00:36. > :00:38.Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney, says economic recovery has
:00:39. > :00:45.finally taken hold. The Guardian's Nick Watt will swallow anything in
:00:46. > :00:55.the bushtucker trial. Surviving in the outback is a tough business.
:00:56. > :00:58.There is a danger of interest rates with a sting in the tail.
:00:59. > :01:01.And it won't take us long to forget this year's celebrity contestants,
:01:02. > :01:04.but are we remembering those who paid the ultimate price in the right
:01:05. > :01:10.sort of way? Author and broadcaster Tony Parsons pays his respects. On
:01:11. > :01:15.the second Sunday of November, we remember more than the glorious
:01:16. > :01:17.dead. We also remember who we are as a nation.
:01:18. > :01:19.This Week, marginally tastier than a kangaroo testicle. Get me out of
:01:20. > :01:22.here! Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week.
:01:23. > :01:27.Please do not adjust your sets, your channel or your drinks. I'm Emily
:01:28. > :01:31.Maitlis. And if you're wondering where Andrew Ferguson Neill is,
:01:32. > :01:37.well, what can I say? We've deleted him. We did. All of him. It took a
:01:38. > :01:40.while, and some technical support. But if Tory Central Office can wipe
:01:41. > :01:43.ten years of speeches, press releases, and broken promises from
:01:44. > :01:47.our collective political memory, why can't This Week? Think of it as our
:01:48. > :01:50.own small contribution to austerity and a saving on the licence fee.
:01:51. > :01:54.We've removed every trace of AF Neill, dating back to 2003. If you
:01:55. > :01:58.try and look for him here in the studio, or online, or stuffing his
:01:59. > :02:01.pockets with free baklava in the first class lounge at Dubai Airport,
:02:02. > :02:04.you will encounter a robot blocker which stops all communication and
:02:05. > :02:08.makes a high pitched whining sound like this. "Mmmmm". Could come in
:02:09. > :02:12.handy later in the show. Speaking of those we can forgive but never
:02:13. > :02:15.forget, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men happy to pierce
:02:16. > :02:19.anything in the name of publicity. Think of them as the David Dimbleby
:02:20. > :02:22.and Cheryl Cole of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:02:23. > :02:25.of #manontheleft, Alan "AJ" Johnson, #sadmanonatrain, Michael "Choo Choo"
:02:26. > :02:29.Portillo. They haven't moved from the sofa since this time last week,
:02:30. > :02:37.but its given them plenty of time to think of their Moment of the Week.
:02:38. > :02:41.Mine are contrasting moments. The interest rate decisions of the
:02:42. > :02:45.European Central Bank and the Bank of England. The Europeans are
:02:46. > :02:52.worried about prices falling, because debt is get bigger, because
:02:53. > :02:58.money is worth less. On the other hand, the Bank of England is worried
:02:59. > :03:01.about inflation. Why? Because wages are not rising so living standards
:03:02. > :03:04.are falling. I think the British Government's strategy had been,
:03:05. > :03:11.let's have inflation because it will make debt smaller. But without
:03:12. > :03:14.income rising, there has been a big about turn and now we are going to
:03:15. > :03:19.try to bring down our rate of interest. That means putting
:03:20. > :03:23.interest rates up. You think we are heading that way. The Bank of
:03:24. > :03:32.England has rotted forward by a year and a half. Last night's BBC News
:03:33. > :03:35.from Colombo in Sri Lanka. There was first of all a government
:03:36. > :03:42.spokesman, who was absolutely implacable and on movable, and
:03:43. > :03:46.conceding nothing on human rights, and was very insulting towards this
:03:47. > :03:52.country and the Prime Minister. And then the site of the BBC reporter
:03:53. > :03:55.and cameraman almost being assaulted by security guards to stop them
:03:56. > :03:59.asking a question of the President. I thought it was amazing but it also
:04:00. > :04:02.changed my mind about the Prime Minister going to Sri Lanka. If he
:04:03. > :04:07.had not been going there would have been a short news clip where they
:04:08. > :04:11.announced he was not going, and we would have seen nothing of that. I
:04:12. > :04:15.think that told the British people more about what is going on in Sri
:04:16. > :04:19.Lanka than acres of newsprint. Now this week our PM has come under
:04:20. > :04:22.attack on the same subject from both Russell Brand and former Prime
:04:23. > :04:25.Minister, John Major. One called him "a filthy dirty posh banker". I
:04:26. > :04:28.won't tell you what Russell said. They're both concerned that society
:04:29. > :04:31.is increasingly run by a public school elite, distant from the
:04:32. > :04:35.everyday concerns of the plebeian hoi polloi, to mix our classical
:04:36. > :04:39.references. So are they right to be concerned, and is there anything we
:04:40. > :04:42.can learn from the ancient world to help put things right? We turned to
:04:43. > :04:56.TV don and Cambridge professor Mary Beard. This is her Take of the Week.
:04:57. > :05:03.As a professor of classics who does some TV, I spend most of my life
:05:04. > :05:09.reminding people that Latin and Greek you might think are out of
:05:10. > :05:14.date and irrelevant, but are actually fun, interesting and really
:05:15. > :05:24.matter. It strikes me that someone needs to do that for politics.
:05:25. > :05:30.Even ex-prime minister 's are getting fed up. This week, John
:05:31. > :05:35.Major had a point when he said the country was still run by toffs and
:05:36. > :05:47.the affluent. I mean, you only have two blink and it seems like there is
:05:48. > :05:50.yet another old Etonian in power. And as for dear old Russell Brand,
:05:51. > :05:56.telling people not to vote, what a load of Tosh. My mum always used to
:05:57. > :06:06.say to me, someone died to get you your vote. You Da one well use it.
:06:07. > :06:10.-- you am well use it. But Russell Brand was right that we have got
:06:11. > :06:14.disengaged with politics. I think that is because politicians no
:06:15. > :06:20.longer seem to be speaking to us. They are just reading from a
:06:21. > :06:24.preprepared script. Try listening to a struggling junior minister on the
:06:25. > :06:28.today programme trying to remember their lines, if you want to know
:06:29. > :06:38.what I mean. What happened to ideology, passion? We don't want
:06:39. > :06:41.government I focus group. We don't want government by slogan. If I hear
:06:42. > :06:48.that phrase hard-working families one more time I will be rushing to
:06:49. > :07:02.the barricades and setting up a party for lazy singletons.
:07:03. > :07:09.It may be that ancient Athens as have something to teach us. One of
:07:10. > :07:18.their best ideas was what they called ostracism. Every year, the
:07:19. > :07:21.citizens got together and decided there was some politician they would
:07:22. > :07:27.just like to be rid of for ten years. Dead easy. They got little
:07:28. > :07:36.bits of broken pottery, scratched the name and threw it into the
:07:37. > :07:41.ballot box. Hey presto. Now, how exactly do you spell Portillo?
:07:42. > :07:43.And from the British Academy at Carlton House Terrace to our own
:07:44. > :07:53.little academy of national treasures here in the heart of Westminster,
:07:54. > :08:00.Mary Beard joins us now. Democracy has been going on for a long time.
:08:01. > :08:05.Is it really in crisis? In some ways, every Democrat always thinks
:08:06. > :08:09.democracy is in crisis. That is what being a Democrat is about, saying we
:08:10. > :08:14.could do it better. But there is a kind of commercialisation of it. I
:08:15. > :08:22.think Russell Brand is onto something when he is saying is a
:08:23. > :08:26.disconnect between us and them. The problem with them is not that they
:08:27. > :08:32.are well-meaning. But a lot of them are going into this for all the
:08:33. > :08:36.right reasons. But all they are doing is talking blasted sound
:08:37. > :08:40.bites. That is the hard-working families it. It must be ghastly.
:08:41. > :08:45.Sometimes when I am feeling generous, I think, how ghastly it
:08:46. > :08:51.must be to be one of you. You have given up. Don't worry. I think
:08:52. > :08:59.democracy is in crisis for the opposite reason. We had not had
:09:00. > :09:04.democracy for ages. We had it in the fifth century BC and put it away for
:09:05. > :09:10.2000 years. Democracy now is a new experiment. In 1941 there were 11
:09:11. > :09:13.democracies and there are now 105. It is conceivable it is in crisis
:09:14. > :09:19.because most of us have very little experience of it. What democracy
:09:20. > :09:24.tends to do, it gets competing politicians to promise too much.
:09:25. > :09:29.Because they have out bid each other. The only way you can then get
:09:30. > :09:33.high is by borrowing from future generations, which is where we have
:09:34. > :09:38.got to. We are too indebted. Our governments are far too indebted.
:09:39. > :09:43.And yet politicians go on the missing more than they can afford.
:09:44. > :09:48.You are being much too gloomy. I do not want to go that to fit century
:09:49. > :09:55.Athens. People like me did not have any say. Being a woman, no say, no
:09:56. > :10:01.vote, no nothing. When I think it was 100 years ago, I would not have
:10:02. > :10:06.had the vote. Somebody says to me that democracy has not been coming
:10:07. > :10:16.on of late. I think, we are not doing that bad in all respects. But
:10:17. > :10:21.I sit town and I think about MPs in Parliament, looking at their iPhone
:10:22. > :10:25.in the morning and being told the slogan of the day is hard-working
:10:26. > :10:32.families. They did not go into politics for that. Did you? What
:10:33. > :10:37.about the junior minister who has to come up with an alarm clock, and
:10:38. > :10:43.stick to what they have been told? It is painful, isn't it? It is
:10:44. > :10:51.painful and I was a junior minister doing it one day. But that is about
:10:52. > :10:56.the media. It is the 24-7 media that makes demands on politicians. So you
:10:57. > :11:02.are saying they have to do that? It would be unusual, or the presenter
:11:03. > :11:06.says, we invited a government minister but none was prepared to
:11:07. > :11:09.come. The way that you do it is important. You do not have to sound
:11:10. > :11:14.like a speaking clock, as if you are reading a brief. You are not usually
:11:15. > :11:18.talking about great affairs of War and peace, but about a policy you
:11:19. > :11:25.are responsible for and helped to shape. It is not difficult to put
:11:26. > :11:27.some interest into it. It is also perfectly respectable. Anybody who
:11:28. > :11:32.runs an enterprising common with others, a company, a football team,
:11:33. > :11:36.the school play, you have to agree on what your position is. In
:11:37. > :11:41.politics it is more complicated because you are trying to win the
:11:42. > :11:45.vote. So the coalition of interests is very broad. But then you have to
:11:46. > :11:48.say not what you think or believe what you have agreed with others to
:11:49. > :11:55.say. That is a perfectly respectable thing to do. But if you do it for 20
:11:56. > :12:01.or 30 years it becomes very wearing, always remembering to say what you
:12:02. > :12:06.have agreed with others. Keeps saying hard-working families and
:12:07. > :12:12.slogans like that. I think most of the electorate, we know that
:12:13. > :12:18.politics is a very inexact science. We know there are not right answers.
:12:19. > :12:27.We know there are disagreements. And we know there are mistakes. When a
:12:28. > :12:32.politician breaks a promise, like Nick Clegg on the fees. Do you
:12:33. > :12:35.think, I understand what led to him doing that, or do you think, he
:12:36. > :12:42.broke the promise I am never forgiving a Lib Dem again? You are
:12:43. > :12:49.trading in certainties. It is no good to trade in simple certainties.
:12:50. > :12:53.Better that they tell us nothing? It is always more complicated. We can
:12:54. > :12:57.take over the idea that it is complicated. We do not have to be
:12:58. > :13:01.told, whether it is in foreign policy, that this regime is nasty
:13:02. > :13:07.until we discover it is nice, or vice versa. We do not have to say we
:13:08. > :13:11.know about -- what to do about student fees, debt, inflation. We
:13:12. > :13:15.know that we do not know. What happened to Nick Clegg is an
:13:16. > :13:20.important lesson. He made promises because he never thought he would be
:13:21. > :13:23.in office. What should the electorate do with that information?
:13:24. > :13:28.They should think, who is not going to be in office next time? People
:13:29. > :13:31.like UKIP. Therefore, we should understand they are only saying
:13:32. > :13:38.things because they know they are not going to be in office. Does that
:13:39. > :13:43.apply to Russell Brand? I tried hard to find something in what Russell
:13:44. > :13:46.Brand said, because he has 7.1 million Twitter followers, all of
:13:47. > :13:52.them under 30, and younger people were telling me that he is onto
:13:53. > :13:56.something. But having read through a lot of his stuff, the New Statesman
:13:57. > :14:06.piece in particular, I could find nothing other than trying to
:14:07. > :14:11.intellectualise his apathy. I have one answer to Russell Brand which is
:14:12. > :14:14.to say, you do not not vote. You go to the polling station, cross it out
:14:15. > :14:19.if you do not like them on the ballot paper and you put, none of
:14:20. > :14:24.the above, spoiled paper. And one day the returning officer will have
:14:25. > :14:27.to get up and say, there were 20,000 spoiled ballot papers, and I think
:14:28. > :14:36.we declare the spoiled ballot the winner. Mary has made a very good
:14:37. > :14:40.point, that there is a lot of laziness in politics, but it is
:14:41. > :14:43.nothing by comparison with the laziness of the critics of politics,
:14:44. > :14:49.and Russell Brand is an example of that absolute basic intellectual
:14:50. > :14:54.laziness. So, what do you do with all of the people that want to
:14:55. > :14:58.follow him? That interview got 10 million hits on Youtube. What do you
:14:59. > :15:04.do with that integrated, enthusiastic apathy? The one thing
:15:05. > :15:09.he did have a point about is, young people today, and we were speaking
:15:10. > :15:15.about educational maintenance allowance and student fees, there
:15:16. > :15:20.seems to be, this is very broad brush, but elderly people are
:15:21. > :15:24.protected, younger people are not. As someone has pointed out, all the
:15:25. > :15:28.people vote, and therefore politicians perhaps play to that
:15:29. > :15:33.audience. So, the things which Russell Brand wants, which is, to
:15:34. > :15:37.save the planet, he says, and a more equal society, that is what I want,
:15:38. > :15:41.that is what I came into politics for. But I did not come into
:15:42. > :15:46.politics to repress all other opinions, which is what a
:15:47. > :15:51.revolution, I am afraid, actually does. Coming back to the John Major
:15:52. > :15:57.point, it is that politics looks the same, it is a leaps of school, of
:15:58. > :16:03.education and gender, which is why it is isolating so many people? --
:16:04. > :16:11.it is a leets. Yes, but you have got to face up to Russell Brand and you
:16:12. > :16:18.have got to argue about method. -- it is elites. It is no good to say,
:16:19. > :16:21.what a load of Tosh politics is. That is what you learn from the
:16:22. > :16:25.ancient world, you do not learn any single method, you learn that
:16:26. > :16:30.politics is about being a citizen, but is what we all are. Every single
:16:31. > :16:35.one of us is a politician, and it is our duty to think about it in a
:16:36. > :16:41.properly conjugated way, and to hold you guys up to account for being so
:16:42. > :16:46.simplistic! We do not like simplicity. Is it not the case than
:16:47. > :16:52.in ancient Greece, the people were obliged to participate in politics?
:16:53. > :16:58.On one occasion. Did you get an invitation to the jungle this time?
:16:59. > :17:09.I could not possibly comment. Now, it is late, and Tony Parsons joins
:17:10. > :17:23.us now to discuss the politics of remembrance. Here, I am
:17:24. > :17:27.contractually obliged to plug something on the internet, and here
:17:28. > :17:32.is the page, for those of you who still use Facebook. Not that long
:17:33. > :17:40.ago, in a studio not far away, there was Newsnight. People between eight
:17:41. > :17:45.team and 23 turned out in their hundreds this week to audition for
:17:46. > :17:49.the new Star Wars film. -- between 18 and 23. We sent Nick Watt of the
:17:50. > :18:08.Guardian to join them. Mum, I think when I grow up, I want
:18:09. > :18:20.to be Luke Skywalker, or maybe I want to be Neil Kinnock. I have not
:18:21. > :18:23.decided yet. Open auditions have started in Bristol for the next Star
:18:24. > :18:40.Wars film. Tel work I am off sick. Can I take
:18:41. > :18:45.the car? In politics, you only get one shot at realising your dreams.
:18:46. > :18:55.Everybody is after the top job, and you end up playing the hero or the
:18:56. > :18:58.villain. Let's go. Westminster's leading man, that's the Prime
:18:59. > :19:05.Minister, once told us that he takes no pleasure in imposing
:19:06. > :19:10.intergalactic spending cuts. Then he stood up in front of the City's
:19:11. > :19:15.finest and said, perhaps austerity was not that bad after all. It means
:19:16. > :19:21.building a leaner, more efficient state. We need to do more with less,
:19:22. > :19:26.not just now but permanently. It can be done. The Prime Minister would
:19:27. > :19:29.like us to think that that is what he has always believed, but it is a
:19:30. > :19:34.little difficult to know exactly what he does and after the Tories
:19:35. > :19:37.deleted nearly a decade's worth of speeches from their website. This is
:19:38. > :19:52.what he had to say about austerity in 2009. And in 2010...
:19:53. > :19:58.These are not the files you are looking for. This was jolly handy,
:19:59. > :20:02.because in 2010, the Prime Minister said that he was introducing out of
:20:03. > :20:08.necessity, not out of ideological zeal. The Prime Minister believes
:20:09. > :20:13.that his health and education reforms show that efficiency rather
:20:14. > :20:17.than cash can deliver change. The danger for him is that he sends
:20:18. > :20:22.mixed messages and hands a gift to his understudy, who is desperate to
:20:23. > :20:29.differentiate himself from the Tories. On the right of British
:20:30. > :20:35.politics, you have got a view which says, it is good to cut for its own
:20:36. > :20:39.sake. I do not think you should be ideological about trying to slash
:20:40. > :20:47.the size of the state. On the left, you have got a view which says you
:20:48. > :20:50.should spend for its own sake. But it is a brave Tory Prime Minister
:20:51. > :20:57.who says it is right to cut out of choice, when Labour is ahead in the
:20:58. > :21:05.poles on things like schools and hospitals. -- in the polls. Oh, no,
:21:06. > :21:16.iPod rocket fuel in the engine, not unleaded. Mum is going to kill me.
:21:17. > :21:20.-- I put rocket fuel. For the first time in a long time, you do not have
:21:21. > :21:30.to be an optimist to see that the glass is half full. Good economic
:21:31. > :21:34.news always comes with a health warning. The quicker than expected
:21:35. > :21:37.fall in unemployment means that the governor is going to have to bring
:21:38. > :21:43.forward his assessment of whether interest rates should rise. Mark
:21:44. > :21:47.Carney downplayed suggestions that rates would be shooting up just
:21:48. > :21:51.before the general election. Labour maintained its focus on the cost of
:21:52. > :21:55.living, and what one of its rising stars described as the pernicious
:21:56. > :22:07.effect of the bedroom tax. Sorry, the spare room subsidy.
:22:08. > :22:12.If the government sticks its head in the sand, let no one be in any
:22:13. > :22:17.doubt, this will be the beginning, not the end, of our campaign to
:22:18. > :22:20.cancel this unjust and unworkable tax, and if the Government does not
:22:21. > :22:34.repeal it, the next Labour government will.
:22:35. > :22:39.There is no danger of a winter health crisis for the Prime
:22:40. > :22:43.Minister, who jetted off to India on a trade mission this week. He is
:22:44. > :22:45.then heading to Sri Lanka for the Commonwealth Heads of Government
:22:46. > :22:50.meeting. Labour is telling the Prime Minister he should boycott it in
:22:51. > :22:57.protest at the treatment from Colombo of the Tamil minority at the
:22:58. > :23:00.end of the 26 year war. There are legitimate accusations of war crimes
:23:01. > :23:04.which need to be properly investigated. That is actually what
:23:05. > :23:08.the Sri Lankan government with its own reconciliation exercise found,
:23:09. > :23:14.that there were more questions to be answered. But that needs to be
:23:15. > :23:19.done. Great, that is my audition over. Oh, one person who will not be
:23:20. > :23:30.sending any takes any time soon is Nadine Dorries, who had to apologise
:23:31. > :23:36.for failing to declare her feet for appearing on I Am A Celebrity. I
:23:37. > :23:37.wish to apologise to the house for what was a genuinely inadvertent
:23:38. > :23:54.breach of the rules. It has arrived! They love my
:23:55. > :24:06.audition tape, and they want me to join the set in Australia.
:24:07. > :24:13.Well, whilst Nick Watt was securing his future in Star Wars, we have had
:24:14. > :24:18.Miranda Green joining us on the sofa. And you have it all to
:24:19. > :24:24.yourself, unlike these guys, bunched up together. The economy, you have
:24:25. > :24:27.already said you think there is going to be a rise in interest
:24:28. > :24:34.rates, so do you see the glass as half full? I do, but I think the
:24:35. > :24:38.growth of the economy, although it brings many benefits, also brings
:24:39. > :24:45.challenges. House prices are rising very fast in London and the
:24:46. > :24:48.south-east, but my view is that with this huge pool of unemployed
:24:49. > :24:52.labourer in the European Community, there will be a lot of immigration
:24:53. > :24:57.into this country, which will keep wage levels low. So, wages are
:24:58. > :25:01.unlikely to increase very much, and prices are increasing very fast,
:25:02. > :25:07.which is one reason interest rates have to go up. However, if interest
:25:08. > :25:10.rates go up, that drives people's mortgages up, so at least one
:25:11. > :25:20.section of the population will be hurting. What would you be saying to
:25:21. > :25:28.Labour now about Plan A, and how to counter it? I do not think they need
:25:29. > :25:31.any advice from me. We used to be asked, how come, if the economy is
:25:32. > :25:37.doing so badly, Labour are profiting from it? Turn it around, how come,
:25:38. > :25:43.coming out of recession, Labour are ten points ahead? It is obviously
:25:44. > :25:48.something to do with the switch towards standard of living, and the
:25:49. > :25:53.fact that people are not feeling any gain from this, particularly where I
:25:54. > :25:59.represent, up in the North. I do not know where I am with Cameron now. If
:26:00. > :26:03.you years ago, he was criticising us for not expanding the amount of
:26:04. > :26:06.money we were spending on education and health as quickly as he wanted
:26:07. > :26:12.to, but now, he wants a small estate. A few years ago, Osborne was
:26:13. > :26:17.talking about exports and investment, but now it looks like
:26:18. > :26:28.exactly as it did before, based on debt and a housing bubble. And yet
:26:29. > :26:31.Plan A... It is quite hard you can hardly say that Osborne has been a
:26:32. > :26:35.raving success. The fiscal deficit, which was the big issue for
:26:36. > :26:40.government, they said, that is what we have got to get down, next year
:26:41. > :26:46.it will be something like 79 billion. Our GDP is still 2.5% lower
:26:47. > :26:51.than it was before the crisis. In America, France and Germany, it is
:26:52. > :26:58.above that. But what is worrying for Labour is that Cameron is ahead of
:26:59. > :27:01.Miliband, and also, the economy. But the big question is whether the
:27:02. > :27:09.Labour strategists are right, as they are now crowing, saying, people
:27:10. > :27:12.will work on -- people will vote on Micro, not macro. It is not worth
:27:13. > :27:17.Labour getting into that conversation, I think. And they have
:27:18. > :27:21.done the smart thing, which is move on to the question of how people
:27:22. > :27:26.feel. It is the Ronald Reagan slogan, you feel better off than you
:27:27. > :27:29.did at the last election? That is the real danger for the Government.
:27:30. > :27:36.Particularly on interest rates, because so far, this recession, if
:27:37. > :27:40.you are in work and a homeowner, you have got off pretty lightly, because
:27:41. > :27:45.those mortgage rates have stayed incredibly low. And we have all got
:27:46. > :27:48.used to that, so a rate rise will feel like a horrible shock to a lot
:27:49. > :27:52.of people. What do you think the Lib Dems should do now, with this change
:27:53. > :28:00.of language coming from Cameron, which basically says, we can do this
:28:01. > :28:03.alone, forget the understudy? Well, they can do it alone if the
:28:04. > :28:07.electorate gives them the opportunity to do that. I know there
:28:08. > :28:11.have been theories that David Cameron actually prefers a coalition
:28:12. > :28:18.to dealing with his own right wing, but you can actually -- cannot
:28:19. > :28:22.actually govern alone if you do not win an election. The problem his
:28:23. > :28:28.party has with him as a leader is that so far, he has not proved
:28:29. > :28:34.himself a winner. He has had to say this because as you say, he would
:28:35. > :28:37.rather lead a coalition, because there are 30-40 people in the
:28:38. > :28:42.Conservative Party who would make his life impossible. So, he has two
:28:43. > :28:49.emphasise that he wants a Conservative majority government. Is
:28:50. > :28:53.it not just part of him taking his party back into itself. The big
:28:54. > :28:59.society seems to have disappeared, other things as well, it is very
:29:00. > :29:03.much an approach for the election, and just looking to get his core
:29:04. > :29:09.vote. Well, that is not going to win him the election. The thing which
:29:10. > :29:15.has survived, like a snowman into June, is the overseas aid. Michael
:29:16. > :29:18.was mentioning immigration, and there have been strong words from
:29:19. > :29:24.Jack Straw this week, I wonder what you're made of those, when he said
:29:25. > :29:36.opening Britain's borders to Eastern European migrants was a spectacular
:29:37. > :29:40.mistake? It was 2004. The birth rate was going down, the dependency
:29:41. > :29:44.ratio, the number of people working compared to those retired, had gone
:29:45. > :29:50.down from 12 to one, when Lloyd George introduced a pension, down to
:29:51. > :29:56.four to one, and we had a 75% employment rate, one of the highest
:29:57. > :30:03.ever seen. For Sweden, Ireland and Britain, the three most successful
:30:04. > :30:07.economies, actually, there was a lot of sense to doing that. At the same
:30:08. > :30:12.time, we initiated a review that put up the state pension age. It was
:30:13. > :30:16.trying to tackle that. There was a very good argument for doing it. The
:30:17. > :30:21.fact is that they got the sums wrong and the numbers coming over here
:30:22. > :30:28.were much greater than forecast. But the actual decision to do that... I
:30:29. > :30:32.suppose it is like good economics and bad policy, in the same way as
:30:33. > :30:38.right to buy was good politics and bad economics. The point about the
:30:39. > :30:42.dependency ratio, the ratio between those working and those claiming
:30:43. > :30:47.pensions, remains grim. The document for having large scale immigration
:30:48. > :30:52.remains very strong. But it is interesting, these lines, coupled
:30:53. > :30:58.with David Blunkett's comments about the possibility of riots unless
:30:59. > :31:03.migrants change their behaviour... I don't agree with that. I think the
:31:04. > :31:09.group who recorded I predict a riot came from Leeds, not Sheffield.
:31:10. > :31:14.David would be equally appalled by this, dark forces on the right. The
:31:15. > :31:20.fact is, when we made the decision in 2004, there were only three
:31:21. > :31:29.countries that the accession countries could have freedom of
:31:30. > :31:33.movement to. His language was more emollient but he was saying there
:31:34. > :31:35.are social cohesion problems with large-scale immigration from a
:31:36. > :31:39.particular group that does not integrate, which is a fair point.
:31:40. > :31:44.But I am very nervous about this as well. There has been a huge problem
:31:45. > :31:48.for a long time. The argument Michael makes and Allen makes, I
:31:49. > :31:53.agree with wholeheartedly, that immigration is good for the economy
:31:54. > :31:56.and the country in a lot of ways. But it has remained an elite view
:31:57. > :32:00.because the political elite have refused to address the effect that
:32:01. > :32:08.it has on those groups that have to pay for it. This is UKIP creeping
:32:09. > :32:18.into every narrative from each party. There is a substance issue,
:32:19. > :32:23.too. Well motivated, qualified men from southern Europe is one thing.
:32:24. > :32:26.People who do not integrate - and I think David Blunkett was talking
:32:27. > :32:32.about Roma communities - that is a different problem. He cited
:32:33. > :32:37.particular examples of problems of integration. I think he was probably
:32:38. > :32:41.being straightforward. But the political problem it leaves us with
:32:42. > :32:45.is government targets on bringing down immigration rates in an
:32:46. > :32:48.arbitrary way, which is costing important sectors like universities
:32:49. > :32:52.and is about nothing, really, because it is not about tackling
:32:53. > :32:57.Eastern European immigration, which is the political problem in the
:32:58. > :33:02.first place. Miranda, thank you. Now, its that point in the programme
:33:03. > :33:05.where you're flagging a bit. I'm wondering what I can get away with
:33:06. > :33:09.without losing the day job. As you've heard from Mark Carney, your
:33:10. > :33:12.glass is already half full. None of that debauched Blue Nun this week.
:33:13. > :33:16.That's been deleted too. Tonight, we proffer the warm fuzzy glow of a
:33:17. > :33:20.Panda Cola left on a corner shop shelf since the mid 1970s. So finish
:33:21. > :33:23.the job and get pouring, because its time for a handbreak turn more
:33:24. > :33:26.awkward than John McCririck turning up unnannounced at Tessa Jowell's
:33:27. > :33:40.book club. It's time for the Politics of Rememberance.
:33:41. > :33:46.The nation marked a week of remembrance with Royals,
:33:47. > :33:50.politicians, veterans and the public honouring those who served and those
:33:51. > :33:55.who paid the ultimate price. With even the Lord Mayor of Belfast
:33:56. > :34:01.paying his respects, as the first Sinn Fein politician to attend an
:34:02. > :34:04.Armistice Day ceremony in person. This is the most difficult decision
:34:05. > :34:09.I have had to make in three decades of politics and community activism.
:34:10. > :34:13.My view, and a view of my Sinn Fein colleagues in the council and the
:34:14. > :34:21.country, was that it is the correct place to be today. And strangers
:34:22. > :34:25.from all over attended a funeral after a newspaper advert called for
:34:26. > :34:31.mourners for the 99 your old veteran who had few close family and friends
:34:32. > :34:36.left. But there was criticism, too, of a war movie for shooting in the
:34:37. > :34:40.Oxfordshire countryside, and an ITV newsreader for failing to wear a
:34:41. > :34:45.poppy on air. So, is the way we remember a matter of personal
:34:46. > :34:50.choice, or an obligation on us all? And how important is it to be seen
:34:51. > :34:54.to remember the dead? At least Westminster politicians know how to
:34:55. > :35:01.deflect criticism, with not a donkey jacket insight.
:35:02. > :35:07.Tony is here now. That was quite an interesting site, that sense of the
:35:08. > :35:12.importance of being seen to commemorate in the right way. It is
:35:13. > :35:19.the one moment you cannot afford to get wrong. It is our national day. I
:35:20. > :35:24.was at the Senate after on Sunday and it really does feel like our
:35:25. > :35:27.national day, when we are not in our ghetto of April the 23rd for the
:35:28. > :35:33.English and another day for the Irish. We really do feel like a
:35:34. > :35:38.United Kingdom. I think the politicians are largely superfluous.
:35:39. > :35:41.They do not need to be there. It is about the marching and the crowds,
:35:42. > :35:47.and about the glorious dead, the fallen, the men and women who are
:35:48. > :35:52.not there. You get a sense they are holding their breath, because the
:35:53. > :35:56.ghost of Michael foot hovers over those men, with their very
:35:57. > :36:01.respectable black coats and poppies in place. You get a sense that a
:36:02. > :36:07.political career could be ruined there in a moment. They do have to
:36:08. > :36:13.turn up, don't they? These are the men who have sent young men to their
:36:14. > :36:18.deaths. Tony Blair was there, hovering in the second row. Of
:36:19. > :36:22.course they have to be there. But I don't think there is an obligation
:36:23. > :36:26.to remember. You remember because it is the right thing to do, because it
:36:27. > :36:30.is a day to reflect that many of the freedoms we take for granted were
:36:31. > :36:36.hard earned and hard-won by previous generations. It is a very moving
:36:37. > :36:40.day. When you see 80-year-old veterans from the Second World War
:36:41. > :36:46.and 20-year-old kids who have lost legs in Afghanistan, it is a
:36:47. > :36:51.difficult day to not be profoundly moved by. I wonder whether it has
:36:52. > :36:56.had a greater significance possibly in the last ten or 15 years of fans
:36:57. > :37:04.certainly when I was growing up, because of all the wars. I have just
:37:05. > :37:07.noticed it over the years I have been in Parliament. There was a
:37:08. > :37:12.bigger crowd this year than ever before. Although the memory gets
:37:13. > :37:16.fainter, and the whole of the First World War generation have now gone,
:37:17. > :37:20.and the Second World War generation, who were in their 40s when I started
:37:21. > :37:25.work and worked alongside them in the Post Office, they are now into
:37:26. > :37:28.retirement. And yet more and more of the public turn up at these
:37:29. > :37:36.remembrance day services every year. I think something has brought it to
:37:37. > :37:42.prominence and importance. Iraq and Afghanistan have been a large part
:37:43. > :37:45.of it. I can remember in the 1970s, service men could not wear their
:37:46. > :37:54.uniforms on leave. That was forbidden. That has changed. There
:37:55. > :38:02.has been an assertion of national identity. The recent wars are part
:38:03. > :38:05.of it, and the sacrifice. We see the selfless quality of those World War
:38:06. > :38:10.II veterans. They are no different from the young men and women serving
:38:11. > :38:14.in Helmand. They are no different from the people that stormed the
:38:15. > :38:22.beaches at Normandy. There was a little storm this week about one
:38:23. > :38:26.newsreader on ITV who refused to wear her poppy on hair for reasons
:38:27. > :38:32.that she gave, which was that she supports a lot of charities and did
:38:33. > :38:36.not want to do them publicly. Bullying people into wearing poppies
:38:37. > :38:41.is absolutely wrong. It has become an ostentation. When it is an
:38:42. > :38:45.ostentation, you begin to doubt the sincerity of the people caught up in
:38:46. > :38:50.it. For example, if you go to a TV studio, you are more or less not
:38:51. > :38:54.allowed in unless you are wearing a poppy. If you go to a radio studio
:38:55. > :39:01.you can be there without a poppy. And do you go to lengths to put on a
:39:02. > :39:04.public radio and TV? I wear one throughout the period, although I am
:39:05. > :39:09.slightly worried about how longer period is becoming. This year
:39:10. > :39:15.started on the 27th of October, which struck me as very early. In
:39:16. > :39:21.the House of Commons, 100% of MPs wear poppies. In the population, it
:39:22. > :39:24.may be 20 or 30%. You have people wearing the poppy because they
:39:25. > :39:28.believe they have two wear it. The poppy is a very fine symbol, but
:39:29. > :39:35.like many things it can be abused as well as used. That is true. The
:39:36. > :39:39.newsreader was strange. I feel desperately sorry for any woman, and
:39:40. > :39:45.they are mostly women, that get abused by idiots on Twitter. But it
:39:46. > :39:48.was strange, her thesis, the premise that she was not wearing a poppy
:39:49. > :39:55.because she supports other charities, as though it was the
:39:56. > :40:02.dog's trust. I think it is not another charity. It is not just
:40:03. > :40:07.another charity. Wearing your poppy and remembering, for two minutes a
:40:08. > :40:10.year, people who gave their future for you, your lifestyle and
:40:11. > :40:16.liberty, and all of the things we do not think about, it is not just
:40:17. > :40:20.another charity. I think it is wrong to say that. I agree that it is
:40:21. > :40:24.special but I still do not want to tell anybody that they have to do
:40:25. > :40:27.it. And neither do I make the mistake of looking at somebody not
:40:28. > :40:31.wearing a poppy and thinking, that person does not remember, and
:40:32. > :40:41.someone who does and thinking, that person does. In Parliament, it is a
:40:42. > :40:46.different situation. You are an elected representative. Unlike the
:40:47. > :40:51.public that are not wearing one, if my constituents see me not wearing a
:40:52. > :40:54.poppy, they think somehow my views, which matter because they elected me
:40:55. > :40:58.and I'm elected on the platform of my views, that that means I am
:40:59. > :41:05.against them. What about the conflict itself? Should that have
:41:06. > :41:09.any bearing on whether you choose... I don't know what the
:41:10. > :41:14.stats were after Iraq, whether fewer people felt that they did want to,
:41:15. > :41:19.or more people felt they would. I think more people. But if there is
:41:20. > :41:24.an anger towards whether you think something is a just war or not,
:41:25. > :41:28.should that affect it? I do not think that changes the fact that
:41:29. > :41:33.young men and women have died fighting for their country. I think
:41:34. > :41:36.people feel enormous sympathy for our fighting men and women, that
:41:37. > :41:40.they are going to wars that are really not like the war that my
:41:41. > :41:48.father fought. It is not a war of national survival. We are not forced
:41:49. > :41:59.into fighting in Iraq, or the Taliban in Afghanistan. I recently
:42:00. > :42:02.read that we are there to combat the heroin industry, but the heroin
:42:03. > :42:07.industry is booming in Afghanistan. I think a lot of the ball field
:42:08. > :42:12.desperately sad that the brightest and the best, the flower of our
:42:13. > :42:19.nation are being sent off to not a better war. There is a suspicion
:42:20. > :42:24.among some people that politicians wearing poppies and talking about
:42:25. > :42:29.heroes and heroines and so on could be using it as a way to avoid having
:42:30. > :42:32.to answer questions about the causes of the wards, or the purposes of the
:42:33. > :42:41.war to which they sending young men and women. And I think we need to
:42:42. > :42:45.bear that in mind, too. The names of the dead are read out in the House
:42:46. > :42:50.of Commons now, and that seems like an ostentation, to me. It is not
:42:51. > :42:55.necessary to take Parliamentary time. It is right that they are
:42:56. > :42:58.remembered, of course. Once you start, you can't stop, can you?
:42:59. > :43:02.That's your lot for tonight folks, but not for us. I'm taking the boys
:43:03. > :43:06.out of their Annabel's comfort zone. We're heading off to The Fruit
:43:07. > :43:09.Machine in Vauxhall. It's not Rio, but its on the Victoria line. Anyway
:43:10. > :43:12.we shouldn't be telling you this. Ministers got told off this week for
:43:13. > :43:15.announcing their Parliamentary business on Twitter, instead of
:43:16. > :43:18.before the House. Professionally, it doesn't get any better than this.
:43:19. > :43:25.What a way to sign off. Good night.