:00:07. > :00:42.post-it note. Choose dirty politics. Choose fears,
:00:43. > :00:44.smears and negative campaigning. Choose unrestricted immigration from
:00:45. > :00:56.Bulgaria and Romania. Choose ad-man Martin Sorrell. Sadly, politicians
:00:57. > :00:59.can't choose negativity as part of their little life.
:01:00. > :01:01.Choose sitting on a couch watching mind-numbing, spirit-crushing
:01:02. > :01:08.political shows, stuffing junk food in your mouth. Choose posh Scot Rory
:01:09. > :01:11.Bremner. Choose your political future. Choose
:01:12. > :01:14.Westminster life. But why would I do a thing like that? I chose not to
:01:15. > :01:18.choose Westminster life. I chose something else. And the reasons? Who
:01:19. > :01:25.needs a reason when you've got Blue Nun?
:01:26. > :01:29.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week. So what's it like living in the
:01:30. > :01:32.nasty country? Once it was only Tories who were nasty, but it seems
:01:33. > :01:34.they've infected the entire nation, according to Hungary's top
:01:35. > :01:40.bureaucrat in Brussels, Commissioner Laszlo Andor. Now, there is
:01:41. > :01:43.something unpleasant about our three major parties vying to keep out as
:01:44. > :01:46.many fellow European citizens as they can, especially if they happen
:01:47. > :01:49.to be Bulgarian or Romanian, though I yield to no one in my
:01:50. > :01:58.determination to stop these Bulgars taking the jobs of our Poles! But
:01:59. > :02:03.I'm not sure a Hungarian is best placed to lecture us. Not if you
:02:04. > :02:06.hail from a country in which the local version of the BNP gets almost
:02:07. > :02:08.one in five votes, where paramilitary gangs regularly attack
:02:09. > :02:12.Roma villages. Where anti-Semitism is so rife Jews are fleeing to
:02:13. > :02:17.Vienna because they fear for their safety. Now that's what I'd call
:02:18. > :02:25.100% real McCoy nasty, compared to which we Brits are mere gifted
:02:26. > :02:28.amateurs. Oh, did I mention they recently shot dead a Roma father and
:02:29. > :02:36.his five-year-old son as they ran from their burning home? How remiss
:02:37. > :02:41.of me. We can only stand in awe of what a truly nasty country looks
:02:42. > :02:44.like, Mr Andor. Speaking of those who've sniffed too much Higella
:02:45. > :02:51.goulash, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two people who deny any
:02:52. > :02:56.improper behaviour. Think of them as the Tony Blair and Wendi Deng of
:02:57. > :02:59.late-night political chat. I speak, of course, of #sadmanonatrain
:03:00. > :03:01.Michael "punch my ticket" Portillo, and back, by absolutely no public
:03:02. > :03:24.demand whatsoever, #londonnightmayor Diane Abbott. Wellcome, to you both.
:03:25. > :03:29.Your moment of the week. An interim agreement was made between Iran and
:03:30. > :03:34.the US, allowing Iran to continue to produce uranium for its use for
:03:35. > :03:38.nuclear programme, suspending some sanctions against Iran. It is a
:03:39. > :03:44.eliminator in agreement, which might lead to a more substantial one --
:03:45. > :03:49.preliminary agreement. I would normally be sceptical, but I have
:03:50. > :03:52.suspended that, because I think the Iranians want to get rid of the
:03:53. > :03:57.sanctions burden, see advantages in making this arrangement. The
:03:58. > :04:01.Americans have also shown flexibility. It appears to be one of
:04:02. > :04:05.these moments where the almost impossible happens, a bit like the
:04:06. > :04:09.agreement between Richard Nixon and the People's Republic of China many
:04:10. > :04:12.years ago. So I have my fingers crossed, and I'm holding my breath
:04:13. > :04:18.and I think this could be significant. We will hold you to
:04:19. > :04:23.account in six months. It has to be a complete deal in six months. Not a
:04:24. > :04:28.view shared by Israel or the Gulf states, who are very worried about
:04:29. > :04:36.this. They have their own taxes to grind. Who does not? There is
:04:37. > :04:41.nothing but the sound of a grinding axe for miles around. My moment of
:04:42. > :04:47.the week was Mark Carney announcing today that he is going to eventually
:04:48. > :04:51.suspend one of these housing arrangements which has said what
:04:52. > :04:57.appears, certainly if you live in London, to be a housing bubble. It
:04:58. > :05:01.is important because if you look at the estate of the economy and the
:05:02. > :05:05.extent to which this growth is real or not, it will determine the 2015
:05:06. > :05:10.election and may have a bearing on what they decide in Scotland. Also
:05:11. > :05:15.interesting that the Governor announces the policy, not the
:05:16. > :05:19.government. That is the legacy of the Lair- Brownites reforms, the
:05:20. > :05:22.governor has a lot of power. Now, this week Not-so-red Ed accused
:05:23. > :05:24.Call-me-Dave of plotting "the dirtiest election campaign" in two
:05:25. > :05:27.decades, putting "smear and character assassination" at the
:05:28. > :05:33.heart of the Tory re-election strategy. Well, Ed knows a smear
:05:34. > :05:37.when he sees one. He did work for Gordon Brown and his henchmen after
:05:38. > :05:41.all. But is Westminster really turning ugly? Is it any worse than
:05:42. > :05:45.usual? And does negative campaigning actually work? We turned to the
:05:46. > :06:06.world's top ad man, Martin Sorrell. This is his take of the week.
:06:07. > :06:11.Whether good or bad, negative advertising is a fact of life,
:06:12. > :06:16.whether you are talking about politics or elsewhere. We will just
:06:17. > :06:19.see whether the results justify the means. If you look through history,
:06:20. > :06:25.on balance we might complain about negative advertising, we might say
:06:26. > :06:30.it is dirty and in the gutter, but politics, in part, is about that. It
:06:31. > :06:38.is a very tough, short-term business. If you ask a sample of
:06:39. > :06:41.people as to whether they are affected by negative advertising,
:06:42. > :06:46.whether they like it, they say, we are not affected by it and we don't
:06:47. > :06:52.like it. But subconsciously, it clearly has some impact, and I think
:06:53. > :06:55.that significant impact. It may be a sad truth that electorates
:06:56. > :07:01.increasingly, particularly at times of recession and depression and
:07:02. > :07:07.economic concern, worry about the fears. They worry about the things
:07:08. > :07:13.that keep them awake at night. The Conservative Party, the most
:07:14. > :07:17.significant part of the coalition, are concerned about the issue of
:07:18. > :07:23.immigration and are concerned about how the electorate feels about it.
:07:24. > :07:29.Given where my grandparents came from in 1899, not speaking a word of
:07:30. > :07:35.English, on my father's side from the Ukraine and my mother's side
:07:36. > :07:41.from Poland and Rumania, I find it, to be honest, a little bit
:07:42. > :07:49.offensive. I don't think written is a nasty country. I don't think it is
:07:50. > :07:52.getting nasty. -- Britain. But elections are getting nasty and
:07:53. > :07:56.things said are getting nasty. Whether it will be the dirtiest
:07:57. > :08:02.election ever, I do not know. But emphasising these negatives, trying
:08:03. > :08:08.to solicit responses to be full's unconscious fears and concerns, is a
:08:09. > :08:10.part of the electoral process. -- people's unconscious fears and
:08:11. > :08:13.concerns. And from Martin's boardroom in
:08:14. > :08:16.Mayfair, just round the corner from Annabel's, to our own little boring
:08:17. > :08:31.room here in Westminster, welcome back, Martin. Welcome back to Diane.
:08:32. > :08:34.We have done that. Let's not be Pope faced about this, the fact is,
:08:35. > :08:39.particularly in America but also here, smears and negative
:08:40. > :08:46.advertising work in politics. Yes. I doubt this election will be nasty
:08:47. > :08:48.than most. Funnily enough, in February 19 704I remember people
:08:49. > :08:54.saying it would be the nasty as to election ever. This is said every
:08:55. > :08:59.single time. I will say that the Conservatives have a strategic
:09:00. > :09:03.opportunity, which is that many people doubt whether the leader of
:09:04. > :09:07.the is Prime Minister real. I doubt he can be Prime Minister. The
:09:08. > :09:12.Conservatives have to destroy that reputation, to make sure people come
:09:13. > :09:15.away with the impression that Ed Miliband will not be a good prime
:09:16. > :09:18.minister. This is what happened with Neil Kinnock, and the other way
:09:19. > :09:25.around with William Hague, with Michael Howard. My favourite story
:09:26. > :09:30.about negative campaigning goes back to the 18th-century. Disraeli
:09:31. > :09:34.discovered that his opponent, Palmerston, had fathered a child in
:09:35. > :09:38.his 80s. Everyone said, we can use it against him and Disraeli said,
:09:39. > :09:44.no, if it gets out he will sweep the country. On balance it works. The
:09:45. > :09:48.Daily Mail did what I think can be described as a negative story about
:09:49. > :09:55.Ed Miliband's father, and Ed Miliband's defence of his father won
:09:56. > :10:00.him respect. The concern about that was whether it was an anti-Semitic
:10:01. > :10:05.story. I know. Isn't it a bit rich for the party of Damian McBride and
:10:06. > :10:12.Alastair Campbell to complain about smears? Far be it from me to say it
:10:13. > :10:21.was ever farce. I think we will take that as yes! He is getting more
:10:22. > :10:28.aggressive and personal about Mr Miliband. Do we put it down to his
:10:29. > :10:33.Australian election guru? I think Lynton Crosby probably has a lot to
:10:34. > :10:37.do with that. The Conservatives are caught between two positions. They
:10:38. > :10:43.have a stronger economy this year, and next year it will get stronger,
:10:44. > :10:48.going into 2015, a good background. Help to buy was not stopped today.
:10:49. > :10:53.Mark Carney reversed the decision of a a few weeks ago, and there is a
:10:54. > :10:57.question about whether the Treasury agrees with the Bank of England, or
:10:58. > :11:01.whether there is conflict. That is all positive for the Conservative
:11:02. > :11:08.Party. On the other hand, they are trying to deal with immigration and
:11:09. > :11:11.taxation issues. And tax avoidance. Cost of living issues. They are
:11:12. > :11:17.caught between two strategies. My view would be, focus on the growth
:11:18. > :11:22.and the economy and strengthening the economy, rather than getting
:11:23. > :11:27.sidelined. I rather agree. There has always been a danger with David
:11:28. > :11:31.Cameron getting sidelined, that the strategy is interrupted by a series
:11:32. > :11:36.of piecemeal decisions which are for today. Rationalising it, you can say
:11:37. > :11:39.they are throwing a lot of baggage overboard that they do not want in
:11:40. > :11:45.the way when they get near the election. So they realise that they
:11:46. > :11:51.can be outmanoeuvred by Labour on cigarette packaging, payday loans,
:11:52. > :11:56.and so a lot of this is being called overboard pretty quickly now. It is
:11:57. > :11:59.one thing to talk about nasty campaigning, but if you sit in the
:12:00. > :12:06.chamber at Prime Minister 's questions and look at David Cameron,
:12:07. > :12:22.there is a nasty streak. You could be grinding an act is here. I could
:12:23. > :12:28.be. It is not attractive. Part of this is because Ed Miliband landed a
:12:29. > :12:32.very solid punch on energy prices. And now Cameron is getting his own
:12:33. > :12:38.back, in relation to Reverend Flowers and the Co-op Bank. I think
:12:39. > :12:42.Mr Cameron is being pulled into macro different ways in a different
:12:43. > :12:47.way. There is an expectation that the Tories will fight the next
:12:48. > :12:50.election as a presidential campaign, because the polls show that Mr
:12:51. > :12:57.Cameron is regarded as more of a leader than Mr Miliband. But if you
:12:58. > :13:01.are going to fight a presidential campaign, you are meant to be above
:13:02. > :13:07.the mudslinging. You do not do the mudslinging. Others might, but you
:13:08. > :13:12.are presidential. We cannot be like that and do what he's doing at
:13:13. > :13:19.moment. I agree with that. I do not quite agree with what Diane said
:13:20. > :13:24.before. Sit there and watch him go bright red and say something nasty.
:13:25. > :13:28.I think there is a lack of self restraint. In order to do the job as
:13:29. > :13:31.well as he possibly could, he would want to hold back some of the
:13:32. > :13:36.aggression he is using at Prime Minister's Questions, because he
:13:37. > :13:39.does not need to display it. Another reason it would be a presidential
:13:40. > :13:44.election is that he has not been leading the Conservative Party, but
:13:45. > :13:48.a coalition government. What he aspires to after the election is to
:13:49. > :13:54.lead another coalition government. You do not think he wants an overall
:13:55. > :13:57.majority? I think he doubts he will get one and I think even doubts if
:13:58. > :14:01.it would be better than what he has at the moment, which is a government
:14:02. > :14:05.that represents 60% of the people who voted at the last election,
:14:06. > :14:17.which is given the opportunity to reform schools and welfare. It is
:14:18. > :14:26.not true to his type at the end of the day. He may not be as tough. He
:14:27. > :14:34.wants to get a balanced in his mind. I think David Cameron just likes to
:14:35. > :14:44.be Prime Minister. He said he would be rather good at being Prime
:14:45. > :14:51.Minister. Nothing out. Labour is not working. It did deal with the
:14:52. > :14:59.unconscious concerns, or probably conscious concerns at the time.
:15:00. > :15:04.Demonise was way off beam. Here is the issue. Is this negative
:15:05. > :15:08.campaigning more suited to tough times? Labour isn't working is a
:15:09. > :15:17.tough time and this is a tough time. Demon eyes was it have time.
:15:18. > :15:26.When people are threatened or subconscious, it appeals to the
:15:27. > :15:36.conscious and not the subconscious. It needs to be credible and
:15:37. > :15:44.consistent. Nobody believed that Tony Blair was the devil in
:15:45. > :15:53.disguise. He was the housewives favourite. Nobody found a way of
:15:54. > :15:59.attacking Tony Blair. Are we not in danger, speaking of nasty nurse,
:16:00. > :16:15.when it comes to immigration, are we not in danger of a race to the
:16:16. > :16:22.bottom? I can see how it is good politics but you have all the
:16:23. > :16:28.parties involved. They are looking for good political issues. Whatever
:16:29. > :16:31.the rights and wrongs for the electricity industry investment
:16:32. > :16:38.point of view, if you look at the Co-op, it is a very good political
:16:39. > :16:47.issue and they will go full tilt. The real world situation, there has
:16:48. > :16:52.been a vast increase in Spanish and Greek immigration. Everybody knows
:16:53. > :16:56.there will be an enormous amount of European immigration and most of it
:16:57. > :17:02.will be very welcome. There is a concern about the people coming from
:17:03. > :17:07.Bulgaria and Romania who may not be seeking work. We are going to come
:17:08. > :17:10.back to immigration, so hold that thought. Now it's late. Domestic
:17:11. > :17:15.goddess late. So get your Blue Nun dealer round sharpish. It's going to
:17:16. > :17:18.be a big one! Because waiting in the wings, James Bond impersonator Rory
:17:19. > :17:28.Bremner is here, to talk about satire and the Saltire.
:17:29. > :17:34.Salt tyre is the Scottish flag, don't you get it? And after our
:17:35. > :17:37.triumphant/terrifying twelfie experiment last week, we know at
:17:38. > :17:41.least a handful of you have access to a Vic-20 computer. So log on.
:17:42. > :17:47.Follow us, tweet us, and like us, on the Interweb. Now, we know we're
:17:48. > :17:50.prone to hyperbole here on This Week and we just can't stop bigging
:17:51. > :17:54.ourselves up, especially as nobody else seems interested. But even we
:17:55. > :17:57.can't match Alex Salmond aide Joan McAlpine, who hailed this week's
:17:58. > :18:00.White Paper on Scottish independence as making America's Declaration of
:18:01. > :18:07.Independence look like a Post-it note! Either she's been out on the
:18:08. > :18:13.razz with the Reverend Flowers, or that Higella stuff has made it north
:18:14. > :18:16.of the border. Anyway, we travelled to the world's newest nation state,
:18:17. > :18:18.the People's Republic of Pienaar, to ask its Presidente for his round up
:18:19. > :18:44.of the political week. Are we all agreed? What do we
:18:45. > :18:49.think? We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are
:18:50. > :19:01.created equal - citizens are created equal. I know I am no Alex Salmond.
:19:02. > :19:07.What will those big Briton unionists, Cameron, Clegg and Miller
:19:08. > :19:25.band make of the people to public of PNR? They have their hands full. --
:19:26. > :19:31.People's Republic of Pienaar. I say, do not underestimate Alex
:19:32. > :19:40.Salmond. There is only one like him. This White Paper is the most
:19:41. > :19:46.detailed document that anyone in the world has been offered as basis of
:19:47. > :19:52.becoming an independent country. Put like that, it is all pretty
:19:53. > :19:59.convincing. My side are pretty loyal. Especially Teddy. I do not
:20:00. > :20:05.have any oil to keep or missiles to kick out or spare room subsidies to
:20:06. > :20:09.repeal. Scotland has all of them that is why they are busy of
:20:10. > :20:22.accusing the Independent side of making it look far too easy. He says
:20:23. > :20:33.there will be a currency union. He ignores the fact there would need to
:20:34. > :20:38.be negotiation. It takes two. It is our currency. We are entitled to
:20:39. > :20:43.share it. We argue that position for the best interests of Scotland and
:20:44. > :20:47.the United Kingdom. In Downing Street, Cabinet ministers believe
:20:48. > :20:56.their arguments about economic risk and ancient ties will win through.
:20:57. > :21:01.The polls and the pundits favoured the union continuing. The SNP could
:21:02. > :21:11.still end up claiming it is the natural party of government, a bit
:21:12. > :21:16.like me. Now me, I want to run a nice open Republic. Some of my
:21:17. > :21:21.people are worried about Bulgarians, Romanians and the like flooding in
:21:22. > :21:27.and claiming this, stealing that. One or two of them, like Nigel in
:21:28. > :21:31.there, are whispering about setting up their own republic Independence
:21:32. > :21:37.party. I will have to take a leaf out of the book of David Cameron and
:21:38. > :21:41.start talking tough. Thinking of coming to Britain because it is
:21:42. > :21:44.easier to claim benefits, housing benefit or unemployment benefit, it
:21:45. > :21:50.is important to send out a clear message that is not the case. I am
:21:51. > :21:56.not going to be running a nasty country. Who did that European
:21:57. > :22:05.Commissioner think he is? When the minister accuses Copts of making it
:22:06. > :22:09.all up. Seven policemen are facing disciplinary hearings. It would not
:22:10. > :22:17.happen inside my borders or in Britain. How much do you regret the
:22:18. > :22:26.original altercation? I wish it had not happened. I left Downing Street
:22:27. > :22:32.through the main gate, as I had done many times before and I made that
:22:33. > :22:37.point. Things are getting nasty back in the old country. A bank like RBS
:22:38. > :22:42.accused of letting perfectly viable businesses go under so it can profit
:22:43. > :22:46.from the wreckage. The governor of the Bank of England called those
:22:47. > :22:55.allegations shocking. The Mayor of London pointed out we are all equal
:22:56. > :22:57.but some more equal than others. Whatever you may think of the value
:22:58. > :23:12.of IQ tests, it is surely relevant that 16% of our species
:23:13. > :23:16.have an IQ below 85 and some above 130. The harder you shake the pack,
:23:17. > :23:26.the easier for some cornflakes to get to the top will stop this is the
:23:27. > :23:32.PNR broadcasting Corporation. What it would be having own radio station
:23:33. > :23:36.playing whatever you like. Ed Miliband admitted he was a bit of a
:23:37. > :23:53.square in his youth. He his brother 's dreams and chose Je Ne Regrette
:23:54. > :23:59.Rien. Can the Prime Minister explain why the government intervening to
:24:00. > :24:06.cap the cost of credit is right but the government capping energy bills
:24:07. > :24:12.is communism? I feel like a radio host. And your complaint is caller?
:24:13. > :24:18.We are taking action when they did not take action. We are doing the
:24:19. > :24:23.right thing. He should be standing up and congratulating us. No need
:24:24. > :24:29.for egomania. We know who is in charge. I have two go. I am hosting
:24:30. > :24:41.a state banquet in honour of me. Too kind.
:24:42. > :24:49.He wears that outfit when he is on the radio as well. He likes to be
:24:50. > :24:56.well-dressed on the radio. Let's go straight to immigration. It has been
:24:57. > :24:59.such an important story of the week. When the European Union was
:25:00. > :25:05.basically a club of the rich, of West European countries, then
:25:06. > :25:11.freedom of movement of labour was workable. Hasn't it become more
:25:12. > :25:17.problematic because the EU now includes a lot of poor countries?
:25:18. > :25:22.Yes, it is highly problematic. I still say it has brought many
:25:23. > :25:27.benefits. I think we do need to have people in our country who are young,
:25:28. > :25:31.making money and paying taxes. There are populations in Romania and
:25:32. > :25:36.Bulgaria that might well be moving not so much to seek work but to seek
:25:37. > :25:40.benefits and that is a problem. It is quite interesting that the
:25:41. > :25:49.bureaucrats of the EU at least have shut their minds to reconsidering
:25:50. > :25:55.the position. What I would say is that economic and monetary union is
:25:56. > :26:03.never supposed to involve those pool rather European countries. I can
:26:04. > :26:07.remember asking what would be the economic and monetary area and he
:26:08. > :26:12.said France, Germany and the Benelux countries. When you mentioned
:26:13. > :26:19.Southern Europe, he went pale. That is the crucial economic point. On
:26:20. > :26:26.the side of the Tories, they are driven by fear of UKIP. Miranda, it
:26:27. > :26:30.is good to see you tonight. On the subject of immigration, the
:26:31. > :26:34.government has announced tougher measures on welfare. You lose it
:26:35. > :26:45.after a while. Are the Lib Dems happy that Clegg has gone along with
:26:46. > :26:48.this? They have tried to say it is reasonable because it is adjusting
:26:49. > :26:53.British rules to bring them in line with rules and elsewhere. I agree
:26:54. > :26:58.with Diane about this race to the bottom and the rhetoric. Even the
:26:59. > :27:03.Evening Standard said this week, it is getting a bit of a shabby debate
:27:04. > :27:07.and they wanted to point out that immigration is very important for
:27:08. > :27:18.the economy of London and indeed for other regions of the UK. I think it
:27:19. > :27:23.is really important not to lose sight. The great irony is that the
:27:24. > :27:28.Tory party wanted enlargement of the European Union and got it. Now they
:27:29. > :27:34.must do a politically with the consequences. We must not all be
:27:35. > :27:39.sucked in by the threat of UKIP. European monetary union means fast
:27:40. > :27:42.as a people moving from the South of Europe to the north and vast amounts
:27:43. > :27:52.of money moving from the north to the south. It is inevitable. They
:27:53. > :27:56.are implying it should be tougher. I know. This is the subject of some
:27:57. > :28:05.interesting discussions between me and my leader. It really was. My
:28:06. > :28:10.view is that there are no votes for the Labour Party in moving right on
:28:11. > :28:14.immigration. You would be thinking, maybe UKIP is right. You legitimise
:28:15. > :28:25.the Aga meant and I think that is not something they should be doing.
:28:26. > :28:29.-- the argument. Doesn't it leave Mr Cameron exposed to UKIP? Whether you
:28:30. > :28:34.like what they say or not, they have a clear answer. We will leave the
:28:35. > :28:39.union and we will not have to take these people.
:28:40. > :28:46.I think Martin was right before. The leader of the Conservative Party is
:28:47. > :28:49.always drawn into macro directions between those who try to convince
:28:50. > :28:54.him you win elections on the centre ground, and those who say what
:28:55. > :29:00.Lynton Crosby is saying, which is, you have to get the Daily Mail
:29:01. > :29:05.onside, push UKIP to one side, reduce their percentage at the
:29:06. > :29:07.general election. It is a very uncomfortable position for the
:29:08. > :29:13.Conservative leader. It is never enough. It is like throwing red meat
:29:14. > :29:19.off the back of the sledge to get rid of the wolves. Does no
:29:20. > :29:24.politician have the courage to say, one way to judge a country, its
:29:25. > :29:29.prosperity and values, is by the number of people queueing up to get
:29:30. > :29:33.into it? And we have a lot of people queueing up. That is why I have
:29:34. > :29:37.always admired America and so does most of the world. People are
:29:38. > :29:42.queueing up to get into this country. Should that not make you
:29:43. > :29:46.proud? Someone should say that. We should also point out that many
:29:47. > :29:50.British people want the freedom of movement, because they want to live
:29:51. > :29:56.elsewhere. There are many Brits in Spain, using the Spanish health
:29:57. > :29:59.system, for example. The politician who came nearest to saying that
:30:00. > :30:04.immigration is necessary and good is Boris Johnson. He is mayor of the
:30:05. > :30:10.greatest immigrant city in the world. If we look at the Republicans
:30:11. > :30:18.across the Atlantic, anti-immigrant rhetoric is going to consume them as
:30:19. > :30:22.a party. Someone who takes the opposite line swept New Jersey, a
:30:23. > :30:28.Democrat state. Since we are in agreement, I am moving on. Scotland,
:30:29. > :30:31.back to that. This massive white paper was supposed to answer all of
:30:32. > :30:37.the big questions but it seems to have left a few unanswered and
:30:38. > :30:42.created more questions that it had not intended, particularly over the
:30:43. > :30:48.currency. The question I have always had, since I knew Alex Salmon wanted
:30:49. > :30:52.a 3-part question, not two parts. The third option he wanted to offer
:30:53. > :30:56.was devolution max is, all the benefits of independence without any
:30:57. > :31:01.of the risk. The question I have asked since then is, why would a man
:31:02. > :31:04.really committed to independence want to offer the Scottish people
:31:05. > :31:08.the benefits of independence without any of the risk? And that is what we
:31:09. > :31:15.are getting, this is what the White Paper is. It is independence without
:31:16. > :31:22.giving up the BBC, the Crown, the EU, the pound, NATO. It is
:31:23. > :31:25.independence -light. The fact is that if you decide to share your
:31:26. > :31:30.currency with another country, you do not have independence. Do you
:31:31. > :31:35.think people in Athens or Madrid have any independence? All of their
:31:36. > :31:39.decisions are made in Frankfurt. Is it sensible tactics rest room at
:31:40. > :31:42.there was a time when the Nationalists had a clear-cut
:31:43. > :31:53.proposition of independence, their own currency, the euro. There was
:31:54. > :31:57.even a time when the notion of a republic was popular. That at least
:31:58. > :32:03.was a clear difference. Has it been tactically sensible to muddy the
:32:04. > :32:06.water? I do not think so. Michael's point is fascinating. It means that
:32:07. > :32:13.the arch separatist might be scared of what a separate Scotland might
:32:14. > :32:21.actually be like. You should never bet against Alex Salmond. He is the
:32:22. > :32:23.dominant politician north of the border and a formidable campaigner
:32:24. > :32:30.and strategist, and he will call the shots. Because your party did not
:32:31. > :32:34.leave a major figure in the Labour Party in the Scottish Parliament
:32:35. > :32:39.after Donald Ewert died. We will come back to Scotland in a minute,
:32:40. > :32:43.and I want to ask you about one of your favourite politicians, Boris
:32:44. > :32:48.Johnson. What did you make of his speech to the Centre for Policy
:32:49. > :32:51.Studies, talking about inequality which was inevitable and maybe even
:32:52. > :32:58.good. We got a Gordon gecko moment from him, and bringing back cramp --
:32:59. > :33:02.grammar schools. It was on the one hand, and upon the other. He said,
:33:03. > :33:07.you have to recognise the role of greed but I want people who make
:33:08. > :33:11.money to go off and be very good. At one moment it showed an unusual
:33:12. > :33:15.example of political courage, because even to risk saying that
:33:16. > :33:19.greed is part of the capitalist system is quite a risky thing to
:33:20. > :33:25.say. So actually, I gave the speech a few points. I thought I had not
:33:26. > :33:33.often heard him willing to take any risk at all. How did you rate it?
:33:34. > :33:38.Pretty disastrous, and he is lucky he is not standing again as London
:33:39. > :33:41.mayor, because there is no way he could reach beyond Conservative
:33:42. > :33:49.voters having made a speech like that, particularly the IQ section.
:33:50. > :33:55.Disaster! He was a more liberal type of Tory to win London but he has now
:33:56. > :34:00.shifted. How is the campaign for Mayor of London going? There is no
:34:01. > :34:04.campaign, I am just happy to back on the sofa with Michael. I am
:34:05. > :34:14.resigning from everything to be your manager. You did not even beat Tessa
:34:15. > :34:24.Jowell, did you? That was it. Are you ruling it out tonight? I have no
:34:25. > :34:31.plans to run for mayor. Michael Heseltine - I have no plans to run
:34:32. > :34:35.against Margaret Thatcher. Now, for Michael and I, it's been a
:34:36. > :34:39.long and winding dirt track from our humble origins to the giddy heights
:34:40. > :34:44.of This Week. Diane's journey took a little longer of course. Black cabs
:34:45. > :34:48.are still refusing to pick her up and the number 38 bus from Hackney
:34:49. > :34:53.takes forever. But with a referendum less than a year away, it's touch
:34:54. > :34:56.and go whether the Act of Union will outlast the Argos catalogue, and
:34:57. > :34:59.many Scots are wondering where the road to independence might lead. One
:35:00. > :35:03.of those reassessing long-held views is satirist Rory Bremner, and that's
:35:04. > :35:04.why we've decided to put Rory Goes to Holyrood in this week's
:35:05. > :35:34.Scot-light! That was me, Rory Bremner, about to
:35:35. > :35:37.go onstage to do my first ever stand-up show about Scottish
:35:38. > :35:40.politics. Having moved back home to Scotland and become fascinated by
:35:41. > :35:46.the debate on independence, it is time I to get seriously and some
:35:47. > :35:49.comedy about it. It is very unlikely you will get any answers tonight.
:35:50. > :35:54.The idea is that we will at least raise a few questions. Some things
:35:55. > :35:59.in life are too important to be taken seriously, and this is one of
:36:00. > :36:02.them. In the run-up to the referendum, both sides will try to
:36:03. > :36:07.win us over with appeals to the heart, slogans and smooth talking.
:36:08. > :36:13.But the facts and counter facts remain. The most important question
:36:14. > :36:23.of all, who gets custody of Andy Murray? I don't really know the
:36:24. > :36:25.answer to that question. The outcome of the referendum raises many
:36:26. > :36:32.questions, even the question of the question itself begs questions. The
:36:33. > :36:36.wording of the question. Both sides wanted to get their favoured wording
:36:37. > :36:40.on the ballot paper. The SNP originally wanted two questions.
:36:41. > :36:50.One, are you in favour of an independent Scotland? Two, why not?
:36:51. > :36:55.It is not just about an independent Scotland, but about they believe
:36:56. > :36:58.that there must be a better way. No matter which way it goes, it feels
:36:59. > :37:07.like the beginning of something in Scotland. Satire.
:37:08. > :37:11.Rory Bremner joins us now. Well come back. Good of you to come from north
:37:12. > :37:24.of the border. I hope you brought your passport! What will they have a
:37:25. > :37:28.border controls? Is there much comedy in Scottish politics? I was
:37:29. > :37:34.not sure, apart from the politicians, you mean, I assume.
:37:35. > :37:37.Beyond the three or four that people recognise, Alex Salmond and Nicola
:37:38. > :37:44.Sturgeon, very few of them are recognised. One of them set the
:37:45. > :37:48.curtains alight, but he went to jail. There was surprisingly little.
:37:49. > :37:52.That was why I wanted to do that programme. It went out in BBC
:37:53. > :37:56.Scotland and was an attempt to open the door and say, this is going to
:37:57. > :38:01.be an important debate. I wanted people to engage through comedy.
:38:02. > :38:04.People have done jokes about independence, on both sides, and
:38:05. > :38:11.found themselves getting a lot of abuse on the internet. Like, for
:38:12. > :38:17.example, the comedian who does the News quiz a lot, she got a lot of
:38:18. > :38:27.abuse just for making jokes. They were pretty fair-minded. I started
:38:28. > :38:31.doing this programme and I said Alex Salmond would have an office at the
:38:32. > :38:35.top of the Scottish monument with a 360 degrees view, like a Bond
:38:36. > :38:40.villain, stroking a cat, or Nicola Sturgeon. And the stuff that I got.
:38:41. > :38:45.I thought I did not want to be intimidated by that. They are pretty
:38:46. > :38:49.extreme on both sides, those who do that sort of thing. Is there a
:38:50. > :38:56.general appetite among the Scots for satire about the debate? I think so.
:38:57. > :38:59.People enjoy the programme. The debate is reaching room temperature
:39:00. > :39:03.now and people are starting, with the launch this week, although
:39:04. > :39:07.Channel 4 News ran 15 minutes on Andrew Mitchell before going to the
:39:08. > :39:10.Scottish referendum. It is a different country up there and I
:39:11. > :39:15.wanted to find out what people were thinking. Three of the four top
:39:16. > :39:19.politicians are women. Ruth Davidson, leader of the Tories, is a
:39:20. > :39:25.lesbian kick boxer, which is fantastic. It makes Theresa May look
:39:26. > :39:33.a bit dull. Great! I wanted to find out more about it. As John Pienaar
:39:34. > :39:38.was saying, it has a long way to go, and Alex Salmond is very crafty.
:39:39. > :39:43.Alex Salmond, north of the border, is the dominant politician, partly
:39:44. > :39:47.because the big Labour ones never went back and stayed in Westminster.
:39:48. > :39:52.For a satirist, the rule is that the bigger you are, the harder you fall.
:39:53. > :39:58.The way spitting image went for Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s,
:39:59. > :40:01.isn't Alex Salmond a perfect target? Many of the political heavyweights
:40:02. > :40:06.went to Westminster to be heavyweights, or for Eric Joyce,
:40:07. > :40:14.light heavyweights. He was the boxing one, wasn't it? He is waiting
:40:15. > :40:18.outside. If you criticised Alex Salmond, people would say, I voted
:40:19. > :40:22.for him, don't insult me. You do not get that if you do stuff about David
:40:23. > :40:27.Cameron or Nick Clegg. Alex Salmond has a very good sense of humour and
:40:28. > :40:31.can take it, but I want to make the point that it is not just about Alex
:40:32. > :40:36.Salmond but about the other side of the argument as well, about Cameron
:40:37. > :40:39.and the union side. But it is important to engage with the debate
:40:40. > :40:48.through comedy and that it is not a comedy-free zone. But those saying
:40:49. > :40:54.no to independence, their side does not crystallise around one large
:40:55. > :40:57.character in the way that the yes to independence crystallises around
:40:58. > :41:03.Alex Salmond. When you have Alex Salmond saying, keep the pound, and
:41:04. > :41:07.Alistair Darling saying, we are not, we are back to the Scottish
:41:08. > :41:15.stereotype of two Scotsman arguing over a pound. It really does divide
:41:16. > :41:19.opinion. That and wind farms in Scotland. There are some parts of
:41:20. > :41:25.Scotland where it is easier to come out as being gay than a unionist.
:41:26. > :41:27.And I am not a unionist. If I am, I am a Scottish Unionist, rather likes
:41:28. > :41:38.Robin Cook was a Presbyterian atheist. It is a bit later my tummy
:41:39. > :41:46.to get that. Is Alex Salmond easy to satirise? -- it is a bit late at
:41:47. > :41:51.night for me to get that. I do not think he is easy to satirise. He is
:41:52. > :41:56.genial and engages with you. I cannot say I have ever heard him
:41:57. > :42:03.tell a joke. He can be very funny in the chamber. He has great timing.
:42:04. > :42:06.And he always held the chamber. He was a strong debater. I like the
:42:07. > :42:11.fact that his slogan is yes, Scotland, which sounds like
:42:12. > :42:20.something he would say at the moment of orgasm. Please! Is it a
:42:21. > :42:23.disadvantage that the other big Scottish characters, Gordon Brown,
:42:24. > :42:30.Ming Campbell, Alistair Darling, they are Westminster -based? I don't
:42:31. > :42:35.know. I think their voices will count for a lot. It is a win-win for
:42:36. > :42:39.Alex Salmond, because if they win the independence, they have
:42:40. > :42:43.independence but if they lose many Scots will say, we are still part of
:42:44. > :42:50.the United Kingdom and we want a very Scottish Government at
:42:51. > :42:54.Holyrood. But what is to say if there was an independence vote,
:42:55. > :42:58.would all bets be off? Would Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and Ming
:42:59. > :43:04.Campbell say, we have a few years left as politicians? The Labour
:43:05. > :43:10.Party was dominated by Scots in the 1980s and they told English MPs, if
:43:11. > :43:14.we give them devolution will skill -- it will kill the argument for
:43:15. > :43:26.independence. That is what we were told. George Robertson is another
:43:27. > :43:32.one. But Alex Salmond has come to dominate a system which was set up
:43:33. > :43:36.keep the assembly out. There is also an argument that Alex Salmond can
:43:37. > :43:40.only lose. One, he does not win the independence vote, which is a major
:43:41. > :43:42.set back. The other is that he wins the independence vote and is saddled
:43:43. > :43:48.with running an independent Scotland. That is the thing about
:43:49. > :43:54.which I think he has lost his nerve. If the vote was held tomorrow, how
:43:55. > :44:03.would you vote? Tomorrow? That is right on the spot. I am not going to
:44:04. > :44:11.say. I have no plans. You are mixing too much with politicians. Great to
:44:12. > :44:15.see you again. That's your lot for tonight folks,
:44:16. > :44:18.and for us, because we're giving Lou Lou's a miss tonight, as it's
:44:19. > :44:22.Marxist night and we don't want to belong to any club that will accept
:44:23. > :44:25.people like us as members. So we leave you tonight with the gift that
:44:26. > :44:40.just keeps giving, quite literally. Nighty-night. Don't let Michael's
:44:41. > :44:45.Bavarian white sausage bite. So, I dip in the mustard, put it in the
:44:46. > :44:51.mouth, squeeze my lips together, and the sausage pop into my mouth,
:44:52. > :45:00.leaving the skin behind. It works really well. For the first time, you
:45:01. > :45:01.do it really well. Thank you. You have taught me lots of interesting
:45:02. > :45:04.things today.