:00:08. > :00:12.As storms continue to cause chaos across the country, This Week takes
:00:13. > :00:19.a look at the political weather in Westminster.
:00:20. > :00:24.Wet and windy for a time tonight. The temperature's rising in the
:00:25. > :00:27.debate over welfare, as Chancellor, George Osborne, says he wants to
:00:28. > :00:34.make further cuts. Sun columnist Katie Hopkins thinks too many people
:00:35. > :00:38.are sponging off the state. I don't care if it's sunny. I don't care if
:00:39. > :00:41.it's raining. You need to get out of bed and get a job.
:00:42. > :00:44.Flood warnings in place all over Britain, but what about the warnings
:00:45. > :00:53.about a flood of Romanians and Bulgarians? Are politicians causing
:00:54. > :00:56.a storm in a tea cup? We still have a number of flood warnings in force.
:00:57. > :01:04.BBC Deputy Political Editor, James Landale, is out in the rain. For
:01:05. > :01:06.years, politicians would rather talk about the weather than immigration.
:01:07. > :01:11.Now they can't stop talking about both, but are the forecast right?
:01:12. > :01:15.And stormy relations between Education Secretary, Michael Gove,
:01:16. > :01:25.and Baldrick. Historian Dan Snow soaks up the This Week atmosphere.
:01:26. > :01:29.The good news is that there is no more rain for the moment. The bad
:01:30. > :01:34.news is that there is snow on the way. Rain beginning to spread back.
:01:35. > :01:39.Get ready for some puddled political views.
:01:40. > :01:46.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, where we enter the new year with the
:01:47. > :01:50.same old concerns. Yes, immigration continues to hog the headlines and
:01:51. > :01:55.there seems to be no depths to which we won't stoop to deter folks from
:01:56. > :01:58.coming to dear old Blighty. Alarmed at the prospect of being overrun by
:01:59. > :02:03.hordes of Bulgarians and Romanians, the government has resorted to
:02:04. > :02:06.draconian measures. First, it stipulated that a disproportionate
:02:07. > :02:14.number had to come in through Luton Airport. That's likely to deter even
:02:15. > :02:17.the hardiest of travellers. And, as if that wasn't disincentive enough,
:02:18. > :02:23.it insisted that all newcomers had to have coffee with Keith Vaz before
:02:24. > :02:26.they could leave the airport. I'm told many simply booked on the first
:02:27. > :02:30.flight back home rather than face such an ordeal. Of course, in
:02:31. > :02:35.America this would be unconstitutional, regarded as cruel
:02:36. > :02:38.and unusual punishment. A bit like the fate that faced the British
:02:39. > :02:41.climate scientist who eagerly led a boat-load of global-warming mongers
:02:42. > :02:45.into Antarctica to show that the ice had melted, only to become locked in
:02:46. > :02:53.some of the thickest sea ice since records began. They had to be
:02:54. > :03:00.rescued by a CO2-belching chopper from coal-burning China. You'd need
:03:01. > :03:06.a heart as cold as, well, as cold as it would seem Antarctica still is
:03:07. > :03:10.not to have a quiet chuckle at that. Speaking of people who couldn't
:03:11. > :03:14.fight their way out of a wet paper bag, much less a sea of ice, I'm
:03:15. > :03:17.joined on the sofa tonight by two icy windbags who leave everyone
:03:18. > :03:21.cold. Think of them as the polar vortex and polar dancer of late
:03:22. > :03:24.night political chat. I speak, of course, of #sadmanonatrain Michael
:03:25. > :03:42.Portillo, and back by absolutely no public demand whatsoever #baffled
:03:43. > :03:47.Diane Abbott. Your moment of the week. Robert Gates was the secretary
:03:48. > :03:49.of defence in the early days of the Obama Administration and he is
:03:50. > :03:55.publishing a book, his reflections on that period. It makes pretty
:03:56. > :03:59.dismaying reading, particularly for service men in the knighted States
:04:00. > :04:05.and their families, because the dysfunction of the decision-making
:04:06. > :04:08.around the Afghanistan campaign is extraordinary. -- the United
:04:09. > :04:14.States. It appears the president had no trust in his generals, embarked
:04:15. > :04:17.on the strategy of extra men being sent in with no belief in the
:04:18. > :04:24.strategy at all, and as Robert Gates says, his mind was only on pulling
:04:25. > :04:26.out of Afghanistan. If I had been involved in the sacrifices that have
:04:27. > :04:35.been made by the United States, I would not be pleased to be reading
:04:36. > :04:40.this. The vice president, Joe Biden, gets an absolute caning in the book.
:04:41. > :04:48.The president has sent everybody out from the White House to dig up Joe
:04:49. > :04:56.Biden. -- to say good things about Joe Biden. Mark Duggan, the verdict.
:04:57. > :05:00.My friend, Chamois Chakravarty, always tells me that politicians
:05:01. > :05:08.should never query the judgement of a jury. Just politicians. You can do
:05:09. > :05:15.it, but not politicians. Really? We are allowed to agree with the jury.
:05:16. > :05:20.There is this issue that politicians should not be attempted to
:05:21. > :05:24.second-guess. On the same day we got the Mark Duggan findings, we heard
:05:25. > :05:28.Boris wants to buy water cannon in case there are urban disturbances
:05:29. > :05:34.next summer. Is that right, not because the fire Brigade is going on
:05:35. > :05:38.strike? Also, Theresa May would not pay for it so he has to pay for it
:05:39. > :05:43.himself. Water cannon on the streets of Hackney are not the way forward.
:05:44. > :05:46.Do you think he wants to drive it? Probably.
:05:47. > :05:49.Now, according to Chancellor George Osborne, 2014 is the year for what
:05:50. > :05:55.he calls "hard truths", which makes a welcome change from "tough
:05:56. > :05:58.choices" or "difficult decisions". Although they always amount to the
:05:59. > :06:01.same thing - cutting people's money on Benefit Street. Boy George thinks
:06:02. > :06:05.we're still spending too much on welfare, and wants to cut a further
:06:06. > :06:08.?12 billion to balance the budget, scrapping housing benefit for young
:06:09. > :06:12.people and kicking Bob Crow out of his council house in the process.
:06:13. > :06:16.Sun columnist Katie Hopkins thinks he's gone soft and his plans don't
:06:17. > :06:31.go far enough. This is her take of the week.
:06:32. > :06:38.I believe in working. I have done some unglamorous jobs in my time - a
:06:39. > :06:43.drive-through girl in McDonald's, a Saturday girl at the bakery, a
:06:44. > :06:47.cleaner. And here I am, cleaning the bathroom is, but only because
:06:48. > :06:55.Michael asked me nicely. Cleaner coming through. According to George
:06:56. > :07:02.Osborne, 2014 is the year of hard truths. Well, here are some hard
:07:03. > :07:05.truths stash we have given up on our own work-shy population and started
:07:06. > :07:22.to rely on hard-working immigrants to do the jobs we simply turn up our
:07:23. > :07:25.noses at. A new Channel 4 documentary series,
:07:26. > :07:32.Benefit Street, touched a nerve this week my showing benefit Britain at
:07:33. > :07:35.its worst, drink, drugs, shoplifting. There have been
:07:36. > :07:38.complaints to the programme makers but I cannot have been the only
:07:39. > :07:44.person wondering why my taxes were paying for people to slob out in
:07:45. > :07:51.front of bigger TVs than I will ever earn -- own. I have most of the fee
:07:52. > :07:55.for anybody on Benefit Street. They are always looking to blame
:07:56. > :07:58.someone, the government, landlords, anybody but themselves. These are
:07:59. > :08:04.people sponging off the state when they could be working, even if it
:08:05. > :08:11.means doing a job you simply don't want to do. The Conservatives are
:08:12. > :08:16.right to suggest cutting housing benefit for the under 25 's. We just
:08:17. > :08:22.can't allow young people to choose to have a nice life paid for by
:08:23. > :08:25.somebody else. In fact, I would suggest the government cuts into
:08:26. > :08:34.welfare do not go far enough. Michael, are you decent?
:08:35. > :08:41.And from the toilets next door, welcome to the studio. As you can
:08:42. > :08:47.see, we splashed out a massive budget on the location this week.
:08:48. > :08:52.Diane, have we created an element in society that feels entitled to
:08:53. > :08:59.welfare in definitely, with no obligation? We may have done, but it
:09:00. > :09:04.is a tiny group of people. What people do not get about welfare
:09:05. > :09:09.benefits is that almost half the budget goes on benefits to the
:09:10. > :09:14.elderly. Pensioners. Over half the budget goes on pensions, a court is
:09:15. > :09:18.on in work and efforts, and less than a quarter of the people that
:09:19. > :09:22.Katie is so upset about. If you really want to make cuts in the
:09:23. > :09:27.welfare budget you would have to cut pensions. It would be wrong to do
:09:28. > :09:31.that, and also, pensioners vote. You can rant about benefit claimants,
:09:32. > :09:36.but three quarters of them are either pensioners, or they are in
:09:37. > :09:40.work. Well, I would expect Diane to be baffled and startled, because
:09:41. > :09:44.that is what she likes to be, baffled and startled. I think it is
:09:45. > :09:47.important to recognise that when we see things like Benefit Street,
:09:48. > :09:53.people do feel very cross. They go out to work and pay their taxes, and
:09:54. > :09:58.we see that 6 million houses do not have a job. That is what she is
:09:59. > :10:04.saying, that there is an element who have made welfare a lifestyle, but
:10:05. > :10:08.much more welfare goes on people who are already in work, but they just
:10:09. > :10:13.do not get paid enough and need extra welfare to eke out an
:10:14. > :10:16.existence. We can talk about those people all we want but there is a
:10:17. > :10:20.massive percentage of people not even getting up in the morning to
:10:21. > :10:23.work, a massive percentage that are happy to spend their lives in the
:10:24. > :10:28.luxury of someone else paying for them to do that. It is a much
:10:29. > :10:31.smaller percentage than you imagine. The British public believe
:10:32. > :10:38.that nearly one quarter of the benefit bill is drawn fraudulently.
:10:39. > :10:45.Actually, the amount of fraud on the benefit bill is 7p in every ?100. I
:10:46. > :10:49.do not deny there are children on estates, I live in the East End,
:10:50. > :10:52.there are children who have grown up on estates where they do not see men
:10:53. > :10:58.going out to work and I think that is a bad thing. Men going out to
:10:59. > :11:02.work? Actually, women go out to work as well. As ladies do have jobs. If
:11:03. > :11:06.you take a look at other statistics, and it would be boring
:11:07. > :11:17.to talk stats all might, but there are lots of they are not attending
:11:18. > :11:21.interviews, not putting themselves forward for any kind of work. They
:11:22. > :11:25.are happy to live with other people paying for them to do so. It does
:11:26. > :11:31.not matter where you live, people are fed up paying for people that do
:11:32. > :11:34.not have the work ethic we need. I quite agree that people are upset
:11:35. > :11:38.because they think one quarter of the people claiming benefits are in
:11:39. > :11:43.gauged in fraud, but we have to do with the facts. We also have to
:11:44. > :11:46.realise that those communities where people have grown accustomed to life
:11:47. > :11:52.on benefits, it is not an easy subject to tackle. I visited my food
:11:53. > :11:58.bank instead Newington before Christmas. Well done. Half the
:11:59. > :12:02.people that show up there are people that are on benefits, so they are
:12:03. > :12:07.starving. Food banks are complete con. One of the big things you like
:12:08. > :12:11.to go on about is housing benefit and the fact that more and more
:12:12. > :12:14.people are facing housing benefit. Housing benefit was never designed
:12:15. > :12:18.to support people who want to live in areas of high and rising rent.
:12:19. > :12:24.People need to recognise that if they cannot afford to live where
:12:25. > :12:33.they live, they need to move. What people like you don't understand...
:12:34. > :12:38.Like me? Since 2010, the majority of new housing benefit claimants are
:12:39. > :12:42.actually in work. It is not idle is against people in work. I appreciate
:12:43. > :12:46.they are in work, but if you cannot afford to live where you need to
:12:47. > :12:51.live, you need to leave. It is not my responsibility to pay that for
:12:52. > :12:59.you. Do you mind if I ask Michael to get a word in? I don't mind. About
:13:00. > :13:03.?80 billion goes on pensions, leaving about ?80 billion which is
:13:04. > :13:08.not on pensions. George Osborne is talking about saving ?12 billion. In
:13:09. > :13:11.a situation where the economy is growing and more people will be in
:13:12. > :13:17.work, I do not think that is unrealistic. Talking about taking
:13:18. > :13:21.housing benefit from those under the age of 25 is realistic because it is
:13:22. > :13:26.very hard to stop benefits going to the wrong people, if you apply
:13:27. > :13:29.certain conditions. People are their behaviour to fit the conditions, but
:13:30. > :13:35.if you have a cut-off related to age, it is very difficult to
:13:36. > :13:40.manipulate the system. You either are, or you are not over 25. They
:13:41. > :13:47.are already talking about exemptions, for example single mums
:13:48. > :13:52.who have kids, and the disabled. Many people would think, well, it
:13:53. > :13:55.should not. You have the bill, which is ?2 billion, and that brings it
:13:56. > :14:03.down and you have saved ?200 million. I do not know whether your
:14:04. > :14:07.figures are right. They are always right. Of course the government will
:14:08. > :14:11.try to avoid difficult cases. But the fact that Katie makes the case
:14:12. > :14:19.that she does, with the energy that she does... That is a nice word, I
:14:20. > :14:24.appreciate it. That tells you how the debate has moved on. I thought
:14:25. > :14:29.it extraordinary that George Osborne said, we are going to cut public
:14:30. > :14:36.spending, reduce the welfare state, and actually put the Labour Party in
:14:37. > :14:39.a difficult situation. I think it is the first time anybody has gone into
:14:40. > :14:44.an election saying, we will spend less money. David Cameron is saying,
:14:45. > :14:49.I will protect the benefits to pensioners. People have never
:14:50. > :14:54.been... That is not a compatible situation. People have had enough of
:14:55. > :14:59.it. People have never been stronger about their wish to have this kind
:15:00. > :15:04.of luxurious lifestyle that is paid for by hard workers. What would you
:15:05. > :15:08.cut? I would absolutely with Michael agree we should be cutting housing
:15:09. > :15:12.benefit for people under the age of 25. I also think it makes...
:15:13. > :15:16.Disabled? We have to take a firmer line on people on disability
:15:17. > :15:20.benefits. Some friends of mine have come back from a cruise why half the
:15:21. > :15:22.people on the ship were bragging about their disability benefits had
:15:23. > :15:29.paid for their cruise. We need to take... We musn't be frightened
:15:30. > :15:35.because of upsetting people. Sounds like an urban myth like people
:15:36. > :15:42.spending their child benefit in Harrods. An urban myth. If you go
:15:43. > :15:47.online you can find sites like entitle to that will tell you how to
:15:48. > :15:52.maximise the benefits you can get. We need people who want to work. The
:15:53. > :15:57.other big issue is imdwrags, which I'm sure we will talk about later.
:15:58. > :16:02.Katie is making the point immigrants are coming in and occupying the jobs
:16:03. > :16:07.that British people don't want to do or aren't qualified to do. It's
:16:08. > :16:10.telling us something about the capacity, qualification or the
:16:11. > :16:17.willingness of the British people to work. Attitude. Something to finish
:16:18. > :16:21.on. Would it not make sense to be very robust, I paraphrase, with
:16:22. > :16:25.those on Benefit Street, the people who are taking benefits as a
:16:26. > :16:29."lifestyle" not making an effort to find work. If you don't, in the end,
:16:30. > :16:33.you risk it could already be happening, you will bring the whole
:16:34. > :16:39.welfare system, and the concept of state welfare into disrepute? That
:16:40. > :16:43.is an issue. I've never known a more hostile climate to social security.
:16:44. > :16:49.Even though most of us in our lifetime will claim some or sort of
:16:50. > :16:53.social security. Your mother having child benefit or Andrew claiming his
:16:54. > :16:57.pension. The hostility is really frightening. People in work who need
:16:58. > :17:02.their housing benefit are suffering as a result. She loves her label,
:17:03. > :17:06.it's not hostility. We have had enough. We want people who want to
:17:07. > :17:12.work, people who want to get out of bed, put an honest day work in to
:17:13. > :17:15.earn their salary. We have had enough of excuses - Most people
:17:16. > :17:18.Katie want to work. That is the reality of that. I don't buy that at
:17:19. > :17:22.all. I think the majority of the population are, working. Those on
:17:23. > :17:26.benefits are happy to sit there, lie in bed and let other people work for
:17:27. > :17:33.them. On that point of agreement and harmony, we will move on. Katie,
:17:34. > :17:36.thank you very much. Pleasure. Now, according to Boris Johnson, Nick
:17:37. > :17:38.Clegg is David Cameron's political condom, preventing the Prime
:17:39. > :17:44.Minister from impregnating the nation with his unpopular policies.
:17:45. > :17:51.We have no such protection, so stick with us as we spread the This Week
:17:52. > :17:55.seed. Waiting in the wings, escaping from the iced-tea in our green room,
:17:56. > :17:59.historian Dan Snow is here to discuss whether we owe it to the
:18:00. > :18:02.past to get our facts right. Don't forget, we're still ignoring all
:18:03. > :18:10.your comments on the Twitter, the Fleecebook and the Interweb.
:18:11. > :18:15.Now on this programme we welcome everyone with open arms. It doesn't
:18:16. > :18:19.matter where you come from or what you do, anyone is free to join us on
:18:20. > :18:34.this sofa. Please. We're currently taking bookings for 2014. So in the
:18:35. > :18:37.spirit of global cameradie, we say hello to our new Eastern European
:18:38. > :18:42.viewer. Sorry about Mr Vaz we will try and keep him out of the way from
:18:43. > :18:45.now on. To help you settle in and understand the great British
:18:46. > :18:48.political system, we've dug deep into our archives to bring you this
:18:49. > :18:49.helpful public information film, presented by the great grandfather
:18:50. > :19:09.of the BBC's James Landale. Hello visitors and welcome to the
:19:10. > :19:13.United Kingdom. I hope this short educational film will help introduce
:19:14. > :19:17.you to our way of life. When you immigrate from here and here all the
:19:18. > :19:21.way to here. You will soon discover the ordinary Brit is a friendly
:19:22. > :19:24.fellow who will want to know where you've come from. How many of your
:19:25. > :19:29.friends might be joining you. And every one of you will get a personal
:19:30. > :19:36.welcome from a top politician. Here's Chair Vaz at Luton Airport,
:19:37. > :19:40.greeting hoards of Bulgarians and Romanians, at least some of them.
:19:41. > :19:44.Once the British Empire spanned the globe. Lots of red hair. Since then
:19:45. > :19:49.there have been some cuts. They are still cutting. That is little us
:19:50. > :19:55.just there. Now, Mr Chancellor George Osborne wants us to get even
:19:56. > :19:58.smaller. If 2014 is a year of hard truths for our country, it starts
:19:59. > :20:02.with this one. Britain should never return to the levels of spending of
:20:03. > :20:06.the last Government. We either have to return borrowing to the dangerous
:20:07. > :20:10.levels that threatened our stability or we'd have to raise tax Secretary
:20:11. > :20:13.of State much we would put our country out of business. Government
:20:14. > :20:19.is going to have to be permanently smaller and so too is our welfare
:20:20. > :20:23.system. The big question of course is, who is going to have to tighten
:20:24. > :20:28.their belts? On that the Government is being tight-lipped, at least for
:20:29. > :20:33.now. But, as the man said, we're all in this together. Why, even the
:20:34. > :20:37.Prime Minister has to live in this pokey terrace house. He is trying to
:20:38. > :20:41.avoid a new tax that his deputy wants to impose on rich people and
:20:42. > :20:47.their mansions. That's because the very liberal and democratic Mr
:20:48. > :20:50.Nicholas Nick Clegg is not so keen on cutting welfare. I think it's
:20:51. > :20:56.simply not serious politics of the Conservative Party to say, we're so
:20:57. > :20:59.reluctant, we're so reluctant to ask the wealthiest in the country to
:21:00. > :21:05.make an extra contribution we will ask all future sacrifices to come
:21:06. > :21:12.from the working-age poor who depend on welfare. That is unrealistic.
:21:13. > :21:15.Hello? Oh, hello. So, there you have it. The Coalition Government agrees
:21:16. > :21:20.there should be cuts, but can't agree how. They've agreed to
:21:21. > :21:24.disagree. Even Mr Chancellor George Osborne, the welfare secretary, Iain
:21:25. > :21:28.Duncan Smith, don't always see eye to eye on this. Mr Osborne is not
:21:29. > :21:32.worried, that is because we are talking about the economy, not the
:21:33. > :21:35.cost of living. That is what the socialists want to talk about. The
:21:36. > :21:39.reason why the Chancellor is saying he is going to cut spending more,
:21:40. > :21:42.the reason why there is a cost-of-living crisis is because he
:21:43. > :21:47.has failed to get the economy growing and get the deficit down as
:21:48. > :21:50.he promised. Today, he has given us no indication as to what he can do
:21:51. > :21:54.in future to actually get the deficit down in a fairway, to deal
:21:55. > :21:59.with that cost-of-living crisis, to get the long-term growth we need to
:22:00. > :22:03.deal with that problem. This is one of London's finest tourist
:22:04. > :22:09.attractions. Look at all these happy people? Some aspects of life in
:22:10. > :22:14.Britain may seem confusing. The language and customs, strange. For
:22:15. > :22:22.example, the shadowy Chancellor, Mr Edward Balls said he could work with
:22:23. > :22:26.his opponent, Mr Nicholas Clegg. The Mayor of London Boris Johnson said
:22:27. > :22:29.Mr Clegg would be an as snet any coalition government, and not just
:22:30. > :22:38.for the weekend! I don't want to get into some sort of endless ding-dong
:22:39. > :22:43.with poor old Cleggers, is fulfills an important ceremonial function as
:22:44. > :22:45.David Cameron's lap dog come protection device for all the
:22:46. > :22:51.difficult things that David Cameron has to do. If you click on the Red
:22:52. > :22:55.Button thingy you can get that translated. The big row
:22:56. > :22:58.behind-the-scenes is why the pain of these spending cuts should fall on
:22:59. > :23:02.the young, and not the old. The Prime Minister says their state
:23:03. > :23:07.pension will rise by 2.5% each year and they will keep their bus passes,
:23:08. > :23:12.TV Licences and fuel payments. Even the old laidiedy in who lives in
:23:13. > :23:16.this house gets help from the state. This is the London Eye ball, it's
:23:17. > :23:20.very popular with visitors. Some say it's you who should have their
:23:21. > :23:26.benefits cut, not the old and the judge. Mr Nigel Farage of the UKIP
:23:27. > :23:30.party said you shouldn't have a penny for five years and said some
:23:31. > :23:35.of you should go home, even if it costs the economy. Are you saying, I
:23:36. > :23:40.accept we could be poorer but so be it? Yes, so be p it. I don't want to
:23:41. > :23:42.live in a country whose population is heading towards 75 million
:23:43. > :23:45.people. There are some things, in a society, in a community, that
:23:46. > :23:55.actually matter more than just money.
:23:56. > :24:02.You may find political debate here in the UK more sedate than back
:24:03. > :24:06.home. None of that foreign shouty stuff here, no not in the mother of
:24:07. > :24:10.parliament, at least not this week when the Labour leader, Mr Ed
:24:11. > :24:17.Miliband, tried to stop the Punch and Judy. Instead, they discussed
:24:18. > :24:21.the weather. Can he tell the House with whether it has become clear why
:24:22. > :24:24.it took so long for some of the energy distribution companies to
:24:25. > :24:27.restore power to homes over the Christmas period? And what steps
:24:28. > :24:31.does he believe can be taken to ensure that that kind of thing
:24:32. > :24:34.doesn't happen again? The flood defences did protect up to a million
:24:35. > :24:37.homes over the December and Christmas period. There are some
:24:38. > :24:40.negatives there. We need to learn lessons, I think particularly some
:24:41. > :24:45.of the energy companies didn't have enough people over the holiday
:24:46. > :24:49.period for emergency response. So, that's the long and short of Britain
:24:50. > :24:53.today. So, that's the long and short of Britain today, less spending,
:24:54. > :24:57.less immigration, more weather. Thank you for watching. I hope you
:24:58. > :25:01.enjoy your time here. Don't outstay your welcome, or you'll get another
:25:02. > :25:09.visit from that nice Mr Vaz. Goodbye. That's a hat-trick of Vaz
:25:10. > :25:14.mentions, that would be four now we've had. As you can see the first
:25:15. > :25:20.film was shot in the bog next door. That one is in black-and-white. The
:25:21. > :25:30.This Week budget knows no bounds. It's a Hollywood ex ravaganza.
:25:31. > :25:33.Miranda, welcome back. 75% of Britons want immigration cut
:25:34. > :25:39.according to a survey, when it's at that level it's hard for politicians
:25:40. > :25:43.to ignore. It Vicious circle. The more propaganda you get about how we
:25:44. > :25:51.are being overrun by immigrants the more you get about about being over
:25:52. > :25:57.by immigrants. Christian Hunt said something about how high level of
:25:58. > :26:01.Eastern European immigration were responsible for poor educational
:26:02. > :26:06.standards in East Anglia. There have been poor educational standards
:26:07. > :26:10.there for years and years. People think it's legitimate to blame every
:26:11. > :26:13.social ill on immigrants. He said he was misquoted. Really what was low
:26:14. > :26:17.educational standards amongst the white working-class and Eastern
:26:18. > :26:21.European immigration doing in the same sentence? The politicians on
:26:22. > :26:25.all sides are under pressure now. It's a subject they have been
:26:26. > :26:28.accused of ignoring for a long while. The media has been accused of
:26:29. > :26:33.ignoring it as well. It's very much on the agenda. I mean, the Sunday
:26:34. > :26:37.Times last week had this competing polls, what one in the end, the
:26:38. > :26:42.final winner was a two-year freeze I think on immigration altogether what
:26:43. > :26:47.was -- was what they wanted? It's very important indeed this topic be
:26:48. > :26:51.debated enmaterial tire openingly. Nick Robinson was saying maybe the
:26:52. > :26:55.BBC over the years have been too frightened of this subject. For
:26:56. > :27:00.example, I would advocate we need more immigrants of a young aid age
:27:01. > :27:04.to produce the tax revenues necessary to pay for our ageing
:27:05. > :27:09.population. A lot of people in the low paid jobs feel that they are
:27:10. > :27:13.undermined by immigrants who are coming in who depress the level of
:27:14. > :27:17.real wages so that people at the bottom end of the labour market feel
:27:18. > :27:19.they are worse off. You have to admit these two things. You have to
:27:20. > :27:22.make the argument for immigration, in terms of what it does to the
:27:23. > :27:26.economy. You have to recognise that not everybody in the economy is
:27:27. > :27:29.going to benefit from this. Some are going to be disadvantaged. We do
:27:30. > :27:34.need, I think, a clear and honest debate on those topics. If people
:27:35. > :27:37.are in a mood to be tough about immigration, that would seem to be
:27:38. > :27:42.rightly or wrongly the public mood, the Lib Dems are the last party they
:27:43. > :27:46.will turn to? Well, that's right. In fact, you know, at the last election
:27:47. > :27:49.the Lib Dems had a policy to offer an amnesty to illegal immigrants who
:27:50. > :27:53.had been here for a certain amount of time and put down roots and could
:27:54. > :27:57.then start contributing taxes to the system. Bullied out of that? They
:27:58. > :28:01.were very much bullied out of that. It seems they've abandoned that
:28:02. > :28:05.policy for next time. I must say, I think it would be a real shame if
:28:06. > :28:10.the Lib Dems were cowed on this issue. Somebody does have to stand
:28:11. > :28:14.up for the benefits that immigration brings to the country. I fear that
:28:15. > :28:18.the Labour Party is not really doing that now. This very interesting
:28:19. > :28:23.though what Michael says about the sort of hard economic realities of
:28:24. > :28:27.immigrants paying for things that we need in the country and also growing
:28:28. > :28:31.the economy because, I thought it was interesting that Nigel Farage
:28:32. > :28:36.this week started to say - I personally think we should sacrifice
:28:37. > :28:39.economic benefits to preserve our culture. In other words he was
:28:40. > :28:44.buying that argument, apparently? That's right. But what those who
:28:45. > :28:49.sort of campaigned for the benefits of immigration and for talking about
:28:50. > :28:53.the benefits say is that, unfortunately people do share that
:28:54. > :28:57.view. He is on to something there. He has looked at the focus groups.
:28:58. > :29:01.It will not work for those on the side of immigration to just talk
:29:02. > :29:05.about cash, basically, or... Farage is trying to say, what about social
:29:06. > :29:09.cohesion? We have to address those issues. They have been ignored a bit
:29:10. > :29:14.too much. The mood of the country has changed. It's not that people
:29:15. > :29:18.are overwhelmingly against immigration, it's become an issue of
:29:19. > :29:26.numbers. Because people feel that there has been a lot more than they
:29:27. > :29:32.ever thought. When Labour Party came to power net immigration was 50,000
:29:33. > :29:37.a year. It wasn't a huge issue. Under the Labour Party it got up to
:29:38. > :29:42.250,000 then almost 300,000 net immigration a year. It was three
:29:43. > :29:46.million over the 13 years. That's three cities bigger than Birmingham.
:29:47. > :29:51.Even people who are not against immigration they think - This is Sir
:29:52. > :29:57.Andrew Green stuff, the equivalent of one city being added every month.
:29:58. > :30:04.Every month. Whatever. We added three cities in three years. What we
:30:05. > :30:12.got wrong is we miscalculated the number of Poles coming in. The fewer
:30:13. > :30:17.immigrants there are in an area people are more upset it. I said,
:30:18. > :30:21.how is it going up in X? He said, the only thing he are talking about
:30:22. > :30:27.on the doorstep is immigration. He said, I tell them there are no
:30:28. > :30:29.immigrants in X. No-one mentions immigrants in Hackney, and it's full
:30:30. > :30:41.of them. I remember when Powell made his
:30:42. > :30:47.speech, and the country was basically against immigration. We
:30:48. > :30:51.move from that and became relatively tolerant of immigration, letting in
:30:52. > :30:56.50,000 a year and it was not a matter of political debate. But when
:30:57. > :31:01.it got to 3 million over 13 years, people thought, hold on a minute, is
:31:02. > :31:07.this getting out of hand? What is the answer to that? This is the new
:31:08. > :31:12.phenomenon, white immigration from Europe, which is a very different
:31:13. > :31:15.thing. And it is to do with the lowest skill economy and this thing
:31:16. > :31:21.about fear of jobs and provision of public services. This idea that you
:31:22. > :31:24.have to address the impact on individual communities to win a
:31:25. > :31:28.pro-immigration argument is important. A couple of weeks ago
:31:29. > :31:33.Nigel Farage sat on that sofa and made the basic point that this
:31:34. > :31:37.connects with the European Union argument. We are in an organisation,
:31:38. > :31:42.the European Union, in which there is free movement of people. That
:31:43. > :31:45.means these claims about how we will control immigration are nonsense,
:31:46. > :31:49.because there is free movement of people. If the British economy is
:31:50. > :31:53.going to do well well the eurozone economy is doing poorly, the
:31:54. > :31:57.pressure on people to move on southern Europe to Northern Europe
:31:58. > :32:14.will be intense. -- from southern Europe. People used to go on about
:32:15. > :32:18.women in headscarves, picked buckets. There is or is this fear of
:32:19. > :32:24.the other and it will get worse in the recession. Let's move on to the
:32:25. > :32:29.real issue of the week. Is this a growing love affair between Ed Balls
:32:30. > :32:39.and make a leg? It is fascinating, isn't it? Ed Balls says hand on
:32:40. > :32:44.heart, his newly expressed love for Nick Clegg, and he respects his
:32:45. > :32:51.integrity. Who are we to question his sincerity? Nick Clegg was not
:32:52. > :32:57.nice back to him, simply tweeting the word Ed Balls, as if it was a
:32:58. > :33:05.four letter word. That was referring to his gaffe, when he tweeted his
:33:06. > :33:14.own name. It was a Twitter joke. I did not know that. Have we moved
:33:15. > :33:19.away from what was the consensus for a while, that if Labour was to form
:33:20. > :33:23.a coalition with the Lib Dems, Nick Clegg would be a deal-breaker, in
:33:24. > :33:28.other words they would insist, we will do it, but not with you? That
:33:29. > :33:34.certainly seems to be what is happening. They miscalculated,
:33:35. > :33:37.thinking he would be gone by now, and certainly that the coalition
:33:38. > :33:40.would fall apart and there would be a leadership on test in the Lib
:33:41. > :33:44.Dems. None of that has happened and Nick Clegg is looking stronger than
:33:45. > :33:56.a couple of years ago. They have two readjust. It is not the reality that
:33:57. > :34:02.Nick Clegg can win his constituency in North Yorkshire. He may well be
:34:03. > :34:06.gone. However, there is no doubt that very senior people in the
:34:07. > :34:10.party, way above my pay grade, have looked at the figures and have seen
:34:11. > :34:15.that we might have to have a coalition with the Lib Dems, so
:34:16. > :34:18.let's move things over. We have the political editor of the New
:34:19. > :34:22.Statesman on the Daily Politics and he said that behind closed doors the
:34:23. > :34:28.Labour high command do talk about the possibility that they will not
:34:29. > :34:31.get an overall majority. That would be my informed guess. It will be an
:34:32. > :34:35.amazing election because both the main parties will have two try and
:34:36. > :34:39.pretend they are only thinking about a majority when in reality the
:34:40. > :34:45.manifesto and all of the thinking will be to do with planning possibly
:34:46. > :34:49.for a hung parliament. We might go back to everybody saying that they
:34:50. > :34:51.agree with Nick. Thank you. Now, this week, Education Secretary,
:34:52. > :34:54.Michael Gove, criticised fictional dramas for peddling a left-wing view
:34:55. > :34:57.of history, accusing Oh, What a Lovely War, The Monocled Mutineer
:34:58. > :35:00.and Blackadder of portraying the First World War as a "misbegotten
:35:01. > :35:04.shambles", going on to claim that Robin Hood - Men in Tights was
:35:05. > :35:06.unduly harsh towards the Sheriff of Nottingham, and that the practical
:35:07. > :35:09.difficulties of fighting an insurgent force whilst wearing
:35:10. > :35:17.nothing under your kilt were almost entirely glossed over in Carry On Up
:35:18. > :35:21.The Khyber. So is he right to get so agitated? We decided to find out and
:35:22. > :35:34.put the drama of history in this week's Spotlight.
:35:35. > :35:43.Dan Snow is no stranger to mixing drama and history with his new show
:35:44. > :35:48.recreating a 19th century down the Grand Canyon rapids. But when
:35:49. > :35:54.teaching history, can drama get in the way of the facts? Michael Gove
:35:55. > :35:56.thinks so, criticising the likes of Blackadder for misrepresenting the
:35:57. > :36:02.First World War as a misbegotten shambles. We have been sitting here
:36:03. > :36:05.since Christmas 1914, jury and which millions have died and we have
:36:06. > :36:12.advanced no further than an asthmatic ant with heavy shopping.
:36:13. > :36:20.Baldrick is OK, as long as it is part of a cunning educational plan.
:36:21. > :36:25.Mr Gove has made a silly mistake. It is not that Blackadder teaches
:36:26. > :36:29.children the First World War, when imaginative teachers bring it in. It
:36:30. > :36:37.is something another teaching tool. Come here. It is not just lack other
:36:38. > :36:40.being criticised. Despite widespread acclaim, 12 Years A Slave Director
:36:41. > :36:47.Steve McQueen was heckled by one critic who said the film's realistic
:36:48. > :36:51.brutality was akin to torture porn. So what is the best way of
:36:52. > :36:56.recreating history? Excitement, drama and humour? Or do serious
:36:57. > :37:03.events warrant a solemn factual approach? He made it off the boat
:37:04. > :37:07.and he joins us now, welcome back to the programme. In the old days,
:37:08. > :37:11.documentaries were made about history, rostrum camera work over
:37:12. > :37:15.paintings and the voice of God authority, and people were
:37:16. > :37:20.interviewed. You have two do dramatic fiction and reconstruct
:37:21. > :37:26.now, don't you? People expect a dramatic reconstruction, as if it
:37:27. > :37:31.was actually fiction. Yes, and there is a place for that. It is wonderful
:37:32. > :37:36.stuff. This year we will see a debate between great drama and bad
:37:37. > :37:40.history. I was actually taught First World War through Blackadder. I
:37:41. > :37:47.think Mr Gove has a point there. However, it is also fantastic comedy
:37:48. > :37:50.and drama. We have the Braveheart referendum coming up and it is
:37:51. > :37:54.certainly the case that lots of people think Braveheart is an
:37:55. > :38:00.accurate depiction of the past. What bit of it was wrong? Some of it was
:38:01. > :38:06.a bit off. I actually don't think he was Edward the third was my father.
:38:07. > :38:13.Also, the Princess was born 30 years after. Like Shakespeare, Henry V,
:38:14. > :38:21.terrible history but one of the best bits of art ever created. This is
:38:22. > :38:24.the constant tension. There is drama which also has an element of
:38:25. > :38:29.entertainment, but if you are using it as a teaching tool, should it not
:38:30. > :38:34.be accurate? If teachers have cleverly worked out, if Tony
:38:35. > :38:37.Robinson is right and teachers are bringing in this balanced sense and
:38:38. > :38:42.you have some Blackadder but the next day a revisionist idea of how
:38:43. > :38:47.Hague successfully won the war on the Western front. I think Tony
:38:48. > :38:50.Robinson is wrong about that. I loved watching Blackadder. The class
:38:51. > :38:57.went mad and we could not believe our luck. It was funny, brilliant,
:38:58. > :39:00.apparently set in the past. World War I, like no other war in our
:39:01. > :39:07.history, is riddled with these extraordinary myths. Part of that
:39:08. > :39:11.has been because of its treatment, going back to the war poets. Some of
:39:12. > :39:18.the greatest art ever created, the war poets, but not particularly good
:39:19. > :39:22.history. I entirely agree. The First World War is an extraordinary case.
:39:23. > :39:27.Our views are not dictated by what historians have said, but by what
:39:28. > :39:30.artists have said. There is also a film called all quiet on the Western
:39:31. > :39:36.front and the novel which preceded it. It has been going on for a very
:39:37. > :39:39.long time. It reached the stage with the First World War where the
:39:40. > :39:44.historians themselves believed what art was telling them. Until very
:39:45. > :39:47.recently, it had been accepted even by historians that the German
:39:48. > :39:53.atrocities of the First World War were a fiction created I British
:39:54. > :39:57.propaganda. It is only recently that historians went back and
:39:58. > :39:59.rediscovered the original data and discovered the German atrocities in
:40:00. > :40:04.Belgium were real and very well documented at the time.
:40:05. > :40:07.Subsequently, it had been alleged they were the invention of footage
:40:08. > :40:12.propaganda and historians had come to believe that. The First World War
:40:13. > :40:18.is an extraordinary case where art, rather than scholarship, has
:40:19. > :40:25.dictated our view. I do not think Michael Gove is always wrong. But
:40:26. > :40:28.for me one of the definitive history books about the First World War was
:40:29. > :40:34.written by a Tory, written by Alan Clark. And there is no more
:40:35. > :40:38.trenchant criticism of the ruling class and generals than in that
:40:39. > :40:43.book. So Michael Gove has perhaps dived into the wrong controversy.
:40:44. > :40:49.There has always been a debate about the First World War, the drama that
:40:50. > :40:52.has been shown, depicting the British being led by bumbling full
:40:53. > :40:58.is. What were we doing there in the first place? But the body of history
:40:59. > :41:03.is growing much that behind the First World War it was German
:41:04. > :41:10.militarism, that was the fundamental cause. It was a war that had to be
:41:11. > :41:16.fought, despite the stupidity and that seems to be the view of
:41:17. > :41:19.historians. It is a war that had to be fought but if you are going to
:41:20. > :41:25.explain to somebody that Belgian neutrality had to be protected, if I
:41:26. > :41:28.was their mother, I would say, I do not care about Belgian neutrality.
:41:29. > :41:31.If you want to observe the balance of power on the European continent,
:41:32. > :41:35.when Germany invaded Belgium for no good reason, Belgium is a
:41:36. > :41:40.neighbouring country to us, Germany have the biggest and best Army at
:41:41. > :41:48.the time, it is not a bad reason to go to war. It is a better reason
:41:49. > :41:52.than arguably the Second World War. I find people are very unimaginative
:41:53. > :41:57.about this. If Belgium were invaded today, Britain would go to war. I
:41:58. > :42:02.don't think written could tolerate a neighbouring country being under
:42:03. > :42:11.foreign military control. -- Britain. There is also the AJ Peter
:42:12. > :42:17.Taylor that it was accidental because of the Serbian railway. That
:42:18. > :42:22.was a JP Taylor. That was the railway timetable theory of the
:42:23. > :42:27.start of the war. Hollywood plays fast and loose with the facts. You
:42:28. > :42:35.mentioned Braveheart. What was that one about the enigma that they got
:42:36. > :42:43.from the submarine. Exactly. It must annoy you at times. Yes, but that is
:42:44. > :42:49.what dramatists do. That is OK. It does not matter. But it is pretty
:42:50. > :42:54.fundamental that it was the British that got the German sub, not the
:42:55. > :42:59.Americans. At least Hannibal did crossed the Alps. I do not agree.
:43:00. > :43:04.The fact that people buzz my view of Nixon or Kennedy is now probably
:43:05. > :43:07.largely determine why movies that have been made by people with an
:43:08. > :43:15.agenda, those who wanted to portray Nixon or Kennedy in a particular
:43:16. > :43:22.way. I think that is important. It is too easy for people who make art
:43:23. > :43:26.to dominate our perception for all time. Movies are more influential
:43:27. > :43:30.now because people read less, learn fewer facts and get more information
:43:31. > :43:36.from the screen. But you cannot censor them. All that you can do is
:43:37. > :43:41.wage counterinsurgency on Twitter and make our programmes. Sometimes
:43:42. > :43:45.they can peek and interest as well. This movie coming out on slavery
:43:46. > :43:53.will encourage people to start reading about it as well. It can be
:43:54. > :43:57.a great advantage. Your film brought memories, because I did white-water
:43:58. > :44:02.rafting down the Grand Canyon, one of the best weeks of my life. What
:44:03. > :44:09.is the programme about bastion Mark 1869, the first expedition down the
:44:10. > :44:13.Grand Canyon. Four boats went in and two boats came out six months later.
:44:14. > :44:18.We had it easy because we knew where we were going. Thank you.
:44:19. > :44:21.That's your lot for tonight folks. But not for us. We're off to play
:44:22. > :44:25.the fixed-odds betting machines at Lou Lou's. Guaranteed to lose. A bit
:44:26. > :44:28.like Diane if she ever runs for Mayor. But we leave you tonight with
:44:29. > :44:31.Boris Johnson's claim that Nick Clegg is the coalition prophylactic,
:44:32. > :44:33.mercilessly ribbed for your pleasure. Nighty-night. Don't let a
:44:34. > :44:52.little bump 'n' grind bite. # My mind is telling me know
:44:53. > :44:57.# But my body is telling me yes, baby
:44:58. > :45:05.# I don't want to hurt nobody # But there is something that I must
:45:06. > :45:11.confess # I don't see nothing wrong
:45:12. > :45:15.# With a little bump and grind. #