:00:09. > :00:21.Tonight on This Week, join us for some political ghostbusting. As
:00:22. > :00:25.Prime Minister, David Cameron, takes his McCabinet to Scotland, will the
:00:26. > :00:30.fear of the unknown scare Scots into sticking with the u-ooo-nion?
:00:31. > :00:46.Musician and cultural commentator Pat Kane refuses to get spooked. As
:00:47. > :00:50.someone who passionately believes in Scottish independence, I extend an
:00:51. > :00:53.invitation to David Cameron to come up with after week after week.
:00:54. > :00:56.As German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, visits Britain, can David Cameron
:00:57. > :01:01.zap the get-out-of-Europe ghouls in his party? Who you gonna call? New
:01:02. > :01:11.Statesman political editor, Rafael Behr. David Cameron has summoned up
:01:12. > :01:17.the spirit of Angola Merkle, but even the iron Chancellor can't
:01:18. > :01:22.exercise the Demon of scepticism from the Conservative Party. --
:01:23. > :01:25.Angela Merkel. And as Olympic swimmer Rebecca
:01:26. > :01:28.Addlington reportedly has a nose job and singer Katy Perry is criticised
:01:29. > :01:30.for blasphemy, should we be so sensitive about other people's
:01:31. > :01:37.feelings? Joke-buster Stewart Lee crosses the comedy streams. A German
:01:38. > :01:41.Chancellor, English Prime Minister and Scottish firm Ashgrove First
:01:42. > :01:43.Minister walk into a bar, but in order to avoid hurting anyone's
:01:44. > :02:00.feelings, nothing happens. Don't mess with me, because I'm in
:02:01. > :02:05.charge of the marshmallow goo. Evening all. Welcome to This Week, a
:02:06. > :02:08.week when it was revealed that only five of the six menfolk involved in
:02:09. > :02:14.drawing up the next Tory election manifesto are Old Etonians! Now,
:02:15. > :02:18.this is nothing short of a national scandal at the very heart of
:02:19. > :02:21.government. For it turns out that the non-Etonian arriviste is a
:02:22. > :02:26.spotty chap by name of Boy George Osborne, who went to St Paul's. A
:02:27. > :02:30.day school boy! My God! You may as well re-christen it St Pleb's! It
:02:31. > :02:34.means not a single Old Harrovian could be found to do the job.
:02:35. > :02:38.Churchill must be turning in his grave. Not one Wykehamist. So who
:02:39. > :02:42.will check the spelling? Not even an Old Fettesian laddie, at a time when
:02:43. > :02:45.the union is in peril. No wonder Harrow, Winchester and Fettes are
:02:46. > :02:48.miffed. As I speak, Shami Chakrabarti is preparing a lawsuit
:02:49. > :02:55.on behalf of the privileged but excluded, whose minority rights have
:02:56. > :03:00.been so cruelly traduced. More power to your elbow, Shami. And what will
:03:01. > :03:03.it mean for the Tory manifesto? Well, I'm sure of one thing, it
:03:04. > :03:07.won't be comprehensive. Speaking of those who went to schools that were
:03:08. > :03:10."approved" and couldn't tell their Wykehamist fallacy from the Eton
:03:11. > :03:15.Boating Song, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men who everyone gets
:03:16. > :03:19.mixed-up. Think of them as the Liz Kendall and Rachel Reeves, or is it
:03:20. > :03:22.Rachel Reeves and Liz Kendall, of late night political chat. I speak,
:03:23. > :03:30.of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson and #sadmanonatrain
:03:31. > :03:41.Michael "pretty boy" Portillo. Michael, the fallacy is in the
:03:42. > :03:44.diplomatic corps, when you treat everybody, otherworldly does, as if
:03:45. > :03:48.they had gone to Winchester and our civilised with good intentions,
:03:49. > :03:52.which is not true. What are the first lines of the old Newtonian
:03:53. > :04:06.boating Song? -- eat only in. Do you see what I have to work with?
:04:07. > :04:11.It is not easy. Your moment of the week. Home ownership figures in
:04:12. > :04:16.Britain have gone down to 65%, the lowest since 1987. I remember when
:04:17. > :04:20.promoting home ownership was an important part of the Conservative
:04:21. > :04:23.brand, for good reasons, because it was thought to promote social
:04:24. > :04:31.stability and a sense of self responsibility, and also it was
:04:32. > :04:35.meant to produce more Tories. There was a correlation between home
:04:36. > :04:39.ownership and voting Conservative which was quite high. It is
:04:40. > :04:43.spectacular that although we have had a largely Conservative
:04:44. > :04:46.government for nearly four years, promoting home ownership has hardly
:04:47. > :04:49.figured as one of its objectives. Indeed, you might say its policies
:04:50. > :04:53.have pushed in the opposite direction, because by pursuing low
:04:54. > :04:56.interest rates and stimulating the housing market they are making
:04:57. > :05:02.housing even more unaffordable for the vast mass of the population.
:05:03. > :05:10.Maybe they think everybody owns their own home anyway. That is the
:05:11. > :05:16.fallacy. He has finally woken up! I think the Thatcherite policy ought
:05:17. > :05:22.to be resumed. My moment was a politician talking on the radio this
:05:23. > :05:27.morning, William Gladstone, who spent 63 years in active politics,
:05:28. > :05:30.had his first ministerial post three years before Victoria came to the
:05:31. > :05:36.throne, was Prime Minister four times. And there he was on the radio
:05:37. > :05:40.this morning. Apparently there was a debate about whether he had a
:05:41. > :05:46.Liverpudlian Axum. They managed to find a recording of him taken in the
:05:47. > :05:49.early days of developing the gramophone. And there was Gladstone.
:05:50. > :05:53.I don't think anyone knew about it apart from the people in the
:05:54. > :05:59.Gladstone society. But listening to this great figure, this historical
:06:00. > :06:12.figure. He would not be mistaken for Jamie character. Who is that? Here's
:06:13. > :06:15.a footballer. Is that with the round ball? Never watch it.
:06:16. > :06:19.Now, spare a thought for the poor people of Aberdeen who were this
:06:20. > :06:22.week subjected to not one, but two rare political visitations, as both
:06:23. > :06:25.David Cameron and Alex Salmond took their respective cabinets to the
:06:26. > :06:28.granite city to talk independence and oil. Anyone would think there's
:06:29. > :06:32.some sort of vote happening north of the border this year. Today Standard
:06:33. > :06:34.Life, one of the UK's biggest pension providers, announced it may
:06:35. > :06:40.move operations outside Scotland in the event of independence. So where
:06:41. > :06:43.are we in the campaign for Scotland's future? And what will
:06:44. > :06:48.decide the outcome of September's referendum? We turned to
:06:49. > :06:51.pro-independence musician and writer Pat Kane. This is his take of the
:06:52. > :07:13.week. Watching David Cameron and his
:07:14. > :07:17.Westminster cabinet-maker fleeting trip to Aberdeen this week to snatch
:07:18. > :07:30.a photo opportunity on an oil rig seemed like the end of a regime, and
:07:31. > :07:34.I'll drink to that. They were like slightly dazed
:07:35. > :07:38.visiting dignitaries holding their elite meetings in luxury hotels. At
:07:39. > :07:43.the same time, down the road the Scottish Cabinet was doing a public
:07:44. > :07:49.queue and a in a church hall. Compere and contrast. I was
:07:50. > :07:55.fascinated by Cameron's image of the broad shoulders of the UK. What does
:07:56. > :07:59.he think Scotland is, a poor child standing behind the burly bulk of
:08:00. > :08:05.the UK as we face a harsh, demanding world? Look across the North Sea
:08:06. > :08:11.from Aberdeen and you come to a poor shivering nation called Norway. Same
:08:12. > :08:18.size as Scotland, discovered oil and gas at the same time as the UK in
:08:19. > :08:21.the early 1970s. But Norway built an enormous ?450 billion sovereign
:08:22. > :08:28.wealth fund, while through the same period the UK amassed what is now
:08:29. > :08:32.?1.2 trillion worth of debt. I think the Scots can do a better job with
:08:33. > :08:42.the next 40 years of oil and gas than that. All the experts agree,
:08:43. > :08:46.Scotland is rich enough and big enough to be a viable independent
:08:47. > :08:51.country. However the no side call themselves Project Fear. They try to
:08:52. > :08:57.sow seeds of doubt and insecurity about the future prospects of
:08:58. > :09:02.independence. So the real question to be answered this September in the
:09:03. > :09:06.polling booths is about confidence. Do we believe in our abilities to
:09:07. > :09:10.make our way in the world? Will we be able to deal with all the
:09:11. > :09:13.negotiations and challenges we will inevitably face. Come on, Scotland,
:09:14. > :09:26.what is it to be? Yes, or no? And from the Soho Whisky Club in
:09:27. > :09:33.central London to our own collection of wee drams here in the heart of
:09:34. > :09:38.Westminster, Pat Kane joins us now. You said it is a matter of
:09:39. > :09:41.confidence, but most up-to-date's Scots are supremely confident. Why
:09:42. > :09:50.do they need independence to make them any more confident? They don't,
:09:51. > :09:53.but to do independence and deal with things like the currency and the
:09:54. > :09:56.euro and NATO and being an independent nation in a complex
:09:57. > :10:02.world, I think we need patience and gripped. We have had the factual
:10:03. > :10:06.arguments, the policy arguments. We have almost reached a standstill on
:10:07. > :10:10.that. It gets to the point of, when you go into the booth on September
:10:11. > :10:15.the 18th, you have an existential choice. Are you a nation? Do you
:10:16. > :10:21.want to hold onto power, or do you want to let it go? I think it is a
:10:22. > :10:26.more profound question than necessarily one about policies,
:10:27. > :10:32.which is important. Scotland is a nation, no question about it. Not a
:10:33. > :10:36.nation state. You didn't say that. They could have the best of both
:10:37. > :10:40.worlds, being as Scottish as they want and yet having the security and
:10:41. > :10:46.scale of the British state. Why would you give that up? I think we
:10:47. > :10:51.have 80% of the welfare cuts still coming from the British state. We
:10:52. > :10:57.have Trident, which is about to be recommissioned, and obscene waste of
:10:58. > :11:00.money. And we have an EU referendum which is genuinely shared is a
:11:01. > :11:08.possibility by the Westminster parties. That is not a secure
:11:09. > :11:12.prospect. Only the Tories want a referendum. The others are toying
:11:13. > :11:17.with it. It is not necessarily a stable future for Scotland. It is
:11:18. > :11:21.secure compared to the risks you want Scots to take. You can't tell
:11:22. > :11:26.us what the currency would be, if EU membership would be assured, if some
:11:27. > :11:31.of the biggest employers would stay in Scotland. On currency, it is a
:11:32. > :11:38.pragmatic question. I think they are bluffing. Why? Because if you think
:11:39. > :11:43.what happens after independence, you have to figure how to have stable
:11:44. > :11:49.and balanced economic relations with England. If they are not bluffing,
:11:50. > :11:55.it is about sovereignty. You decide you are independent and then you
:11:56. > :11:57.figure it out. How? The Scottish Government was very adroit in
:11:58. > :12:02.setting up the fiscal commission with lots of Nobel Prize winners to
:12:03. > :12:08.set out the options. The second option is either a separate
:12:09. > :12:13.currency, which is balanced on a nation to other currencies, blah
:12:14. > :12:18.blah. It is a pragmatic question. Not the standard life which said in
:12:19. > :12:21.the absence of a monetary union, which all three parties say you
:12:22. > :12:27.would not get, they would move out of Scotland. I am amazed at the
:12:28. > :12:32.amount of people the establishment can mobilise. Standard life operate
:12:33. > :12:37.in about 20-25 currencies with just as many currency and tax regulations
:12:38. > :12:41.and out of all those countries, this is the one they will find most
:12:42. > :12:47.affable postindependence. It is ludicrous. I think if Scotland were
:12:48. > :12:51.different today from what it is, they ought to vote for independence.
:12:52. > :12:54.If this were the Scotland of some of the entrepreneurs of the past and
:12:55. > :12:59.the great economic thinkers of the past, that sort of Scotland ought to
:13:00. > :13:03.have confidence in the world. The Scotland today is a welfare
:13:04. > :13:08.Scotland. It is Scotland where vast numbers are housed by the state,
:13:09. > :13:12.employed by the state, sustained by the state. This idea that there will
:13:13. > :13:15.be some oil wealth fund created by the Scots when they become
:13:16. > :13:18.independent, if they do, is ludicrous. All of the plans that
:13:19. > :13:24.Scotland has executed over the past 40-50 years under Labour and the
:13:25. > :13:29.SNP, they are all about making more people dependent on the state. That
:13:30. > :13:32.is the culture and politics of Scotland. That is not the sort of
:13:33. > :13:37.nation that can set forth confidently into the world. We are
:13:38. > :13:43.in a situation where the UK Cabinet came up to Aberdeen to say, you are
:13:44. > :13:47.not capable of managing your oil. All that Scots had to do was look to
:13:48. > :13:50.Norway and a range of Scandinavian nations. One of the things that
:13:51. > :13:54.marks them is that they have strong labour participation in the
:13:55. > :13:58.workforce and management of companies which keeps up wages,
:13:59. > :14:12.keeps demand in the economy. There is a model that Scots can aspire to.
:14:13. > :14:20.You are the most socialist and welfare -based country in Europe.
:14:21. > :14:25.There is no one to touch it. At the top of that index of three out of
:14:26. > :14:28.four Scandinavian countries. It is a globalisation index which looks at
:14:29. > :14:41.well-being, prosperity, good governance. These are all "welfare"
:14:42. > :14:45.societies. We should keep Michael out of the Better Together campaign.
:14:46. > :14:50.Instead of trying to scare the Scots, shouldn't the campaign be
:14:51. > :14:56.making a positive case for the union? I think they are. We are out
:14:57. > :15:00.of it. We do not get a vote and do not see and feel a lot of what is
:15:01. > :15:05.going on. I read the speech by Alistair Darling last July and it
:15:06. > :15:08.was tremendous. It said that for 300 years, a separate Scottish Church,
:15:09. > :15:15.separate legal system, the Scottish Parliament, enhanced by a report a
:15:16. > :15:19.lot of people forgot about but was an important step forward, meaning
:15:20. > :15:23.it is the third most successful part of the UK after London and the
:15:24. > :15:29.south-east, economically. My roots are in a party formed in 1900 on the
:15:30. > :15:33.basis of a Scottish Parliament. It is life in the union, where we
:15:34. > :15:36.didn't have a division north and south of the border, in the Post
:15:37. > :15:41.Office where we were a national, UK-wide institution. To me, this
:15:42. > :15:48.argument from the left that it is better to go back away from a union
:15:49. > :15:51.that benefits the whole of the UK, Scotland being part of the UK
:15:52. > :16:05.benefiting all of the UK, to an argument that reminds me at times of
:16:06. > :16:17.the Euro-sceptic argument. Being part of the UK means being part
:16:18. > :16:21.of... Globally I think we have lots of power, lots of things to do in
:16:22. > :16:27.the wider world. Irene do want to address the fact that there will be
:16:28. > :16:30.thousands of children who will be affected by welfare cuts. There are
:16:31. > :16:35.thousands of Scots who are below the poverty line and will be
:16:36. > :16:41.disenfranchised. I want to address that and have an opportunity to do
:16:42. > :16:47.so. You have been part of what I'd call progressiveness in the United
:16:48. > :16:53.Kingdom. Why do you want to get out of it? I want Scotland to set an
:16:54. > :16:59.example. Every time someone comes up with what could be uncertainties, it
:17:00. > :17:07.gets shrugged off. You did it with Standard Life, George Osborne,
:17:08. > :17:18.Herman Van Rompuy, Standard Life, standards and pause, they are all
:17:19. > :17:26.bluffers and Belize? -- Lee -- bullies. They wanted to have a
:17:27. > :17:31.stable economic tax regime. If you do not go your own way, your
:17:32. > :17:37.government would have no ability to put liquidity into the financial
:17:38. > :17:41.system. It would not just be Standard Life, all the financial
:17:42. > :17:46.institutions would leave. A currency union requires a lot of things. One
:17:47. > :17:53.of the things it requires is trust and mutual respect. If that doesn't
:17:54. > :17:57.pertain and the parties do not negotiate something that works in a
:17:58. > :18:05.subtle structure in the way the Benelux structure is probably the
:18:06. > :18:08.best model, it requires agreement and belief on both sides. If that
:18:09. > :18:16.does not happen, yes, you would have to look at other options. Pit your
:18:17. > :18:21.own views aside and be an analyst, if the vote was tomorrow how do you
:18:22. > :18:27.think it would go? I think it would be a yes. I think it would be close.
:18:28. > :18:35.You think there is still some are meant to go? Yes. I think there is a
:18:36. > :18:39.very dramatic moment. It is about people deciding who they are as
:18:40. > :18:44.citizens and individuals. People will look in the mirror that morning
:18:45. > :18:48.and say, who am I? What will I do and how will I feel at one minute
:18:49. > :18:58.past ten on that Thursday night? It is a big question. Thank you for
:18:59. > :19:01.discussing it with us. Now it's late, and you're probably
:19:02. > :19:05.ready to flop like an Andrew Lloyd-Webber musical. But let's keep
:19:06. > :19:08.the show on the road just a little longer - because waiting in the
:19:09. > :19:11.wings, "King of the 100-liner", comedian Stewart Lee is here to
:19:12. > :19:15.discuss whether we're all getting a bit too sensitive - about
:19:16. > :19:19.everything. And just to prove even This Week presenters have feelings,
:19:20. > :19:23.please be nice to us on the Twitter, the Fleecebook and the Interweb.
:19:24. > :19:25.Now today, David Cameron launched a major diplomatic charm offensive to
:19:26. > :19:29.woo German Chancellor Angela Merkel, known in Foreign Office circles as a
:19:30. > :19:33.whopping big suck up. She got the chance to address Parliament and
:19:34. > :19:36.have tea with the Queen, all part of Dave's masterplan to get her to back
:19:37. > :19:47.his vision of EU reform. To which Frau Merkel said, "nein", but ever
:19:48. > :19:50.so politely. So to show Dave how you should wine and dine a German
:19:51. > :19:53.Chancellor, we sent the New Stateman's political editor Rafael
:19:54. > :19:55.Behr down to the Bavarian Beerhouse in London. Here's his round-up of
:19:56. > :20:16.the week. As you can see, we are clearing up
:20:17. > :20:21.after a very special guest we have had, the leader of a country that
:20:22. > :20:25.everyone knows is Britain's oldest friend and ally. It is a kind of
:20:26. > :20:28.special relationship. You know the country I mean, of course? It is
:20:29. > :20:45.Germany, who else? Downing Street extended a right
:20:46. > :20:49.royal welcome to Angela Merkel today. She addressed both houses of
:20:50. > :20:53.parliament. She had tea with the Queen who is kind of German, I
:20:54. > :20:56.suppose. Not every leader gets that welcome. When the French president
:20:57. > :21:01.was here last month, he was lucky to get half a pint of bitter and a
:21:02. > :21:08.packet of cheese and onion crisps. It is clear that diplomatically
:21:09. > :21:11.speaking, Dave is on the pull. So I have heard that some expect my
:21:12. > :21:15.speech to pave the way for a fundamental reform of the European
:21:16. > :21:20.architecture, which will satisfy all kinds of alleged or actual British
:21:21. > :21:26.wishes. I am afraid they are in for a disappointment. The PM needs
:21:27. > :21:31.Merkel's help to renegotiate his plan for Britain's membership of the
:21:32. > :21:35.European Union. She wants to help because ultimately she wants Britain
:21:36. > :21:39.to stay in the club. And don't tell the Conservative Party, so does
:21:40. > :21:43.Cameron. But if he does not rewrite the rules, he will be in trouble
:21:44. > :21:57.with his party. He will be, what is the word, kaput. Angela and I both
:21:58. > :22:02.want to sea change in Europe. I want to build confidence in our
:22:03. > :22:07.membership of this organisation. The gap between what his Eurosceptic
:22:08. > :22:12.backbenchers are demanding and what he is offering is as wide as ever.
:22:13. > :22:16.What we have seen in the remarks of Chancellor Angela Merkel are very
:22:17. > :22:24.warm words but they will be cold comfort to the a Prime Minister.
:22:25. > :22:30.Old adverse threes setting aside national differences, coming
:22:31. > :22:34.together with a shared economic interest, it sounds a bit like
:22:35. > :22:39.England and Scotland. Days before Merkel flew here to support Britain
:22:40. > :22:44.in Europe, Cameron flew the cabinet up to Aberdeen to bolster a
:22:45. > :22:47.different kind of union. His argument is that together the United
:22:48. > :22:52.Kingdom will be much better than an independent Scotland at investing in
:22:53. > :22:59.and making the most of North Sea oil. People I think in the end will
:23:00. > :23:04.vote on the arc immense and issues, not on personalities. There is a
:23:05. > :23:08.difference between jetting into Scotland and jetting out again and
:23:09. > :23:14.having a real debate about the future of the country. Just another
:23:15. > :23:17.case of the old colonial power throwing its weight around say
:23:18. > :23:22.Scottish Nationalists. Actually, that is more Vladimir's style. The
:23:23. > :23:27.Russian president does not like the way Viktor Yanukovych was ousted as
:23:28. > :23:31.Ukraine's president. It is too much like the Cold War. William Hague
:23:32. > :23:36.said Britain should not be choosing sides. Good luck with that. We
:23:37. > :23:41.believe that closer economic links between Ukraine and the UK can be
:23:42. > :23:45.beneficial to that entire region, including Russia. We are not
:23:46. > :23:48.presenting it as a strategic competition between East and West. I
:23:49. > :24:03.think that would be a mistake to do so.
:24:04. > :24:09.Sometimes come history will not stay in the past, as Harriet Harman found
:24:10. > :24:13.out when the Daily Mail went gunning for her over links between the Civil
:24:14. > :24:18.Liberties Organisation she had worked for 30 years ago and a nasty
:24:19. > :24:23.outfit called the Paedophile Information Exchange. It is not the
:24:24. > :24:28.case that my work was influenced by the Paedophile Information Exchange,
:24:29. > :24:31.was apologising for paedophilia or colluding with paedophilia. That is
:24:32. > :24:38.an unfair influence and it is a smear. Ed Miliband would say total
:24:39. > :24:44.war with the Daily Mail goes down well with voters but the reality of
:24:45. > :24:45.having your party name and paedophilia in the same headline is
:24:46. > :25:02.not a good look. In the end, there was only so much
:25:03. > :25:07.help Merkel could give Cameron. UFO bit Tories and Europhile Germans
:25:08. > :25:11.will not see I tried but who knows, maybe there is the potential for a
:25:12. > :25:15.new special relationship closer to home. The Eleanor I agree with what
:25:16. > :25:20.he said about the importance of climate change. It is obvious the
:25:21. > :25:24.new approach to Prime Minister's Questions, you come to the House of
:25:25. > :25:27.Commons and praise the Prime Minister for his commitment to
:25:28. > :25:34.Climate Change Act. I like the new style! A consensus between red and
:25:35. > :25:40.blue on all things green? It is how they do it in Germany. Frau Merkel
:25:41. > :25:43.would approve. Now we have waved goodbye to the iron Chancellor,
:25:44. > :25:53.there is one German lady you can always rely on.
:25:54. > :25:59.He knows a good drink when he sees one! Miranda, welcome, good to see
:26:00. > :26:06.you back again. We are not any the wiser about how Mrs Merkel will
:26:07. > :26:10.respond to David Cameron except he would not get everything he wants.
:26:11. > :26:14.There was never any doubt about that. I do not think she has in mind
:26:15. > :26:17.any number of concessions whatsoever. I do not think the Prime
:26:18. > :26:22.Minister knows what concessions he would ask for either. The connection
:26:23. > :26:26.we had with the previous discussion about Scottish independence is if we
:26:27. > :26:32.did get to a referendum, David Cameron's government would use the
:26:33. > :26:36.same tactics they are using in the Scottish referendum, they would try
:26:37. > :26:41.to scare people rigid about the consequences of leaving the European
:26:42. > :26:45.Union. To that extent I have some sympathy with Pat in the previous
:26:46. > :26:48.discussion. It is a bit dangerous, is it not, for a British Prime
:26:49. > :26:52.Minister to put nearly all their faith, he has got the Dutch Prime
:26:53. > :26:58.Minister as an ally as well, but nearly all thy faith in the German
:26:59. > :27:04.Chancellor? Particularly German Chancellor who is in with the social
:27:05. > :27:08.Democrats? Absolutely, it is mad. If you are going to negotiate your way
:27:09. > :27:12.out of this, you do not throw yourself on the mercy of Merkel, I
:27:13. > :27:16.did this as a favour. If you did this where I come from, no matter
:27:17. > :27:20.how well you get on with the person on the other side of the table,
:27:21. > :27:24.you're showing a huge weakness. Merkel knows that even if she did
:27:25. > :27:28.concede something and she will not concede anything this side of the
:27:29. > :27:32.general election, but even if she did, she knows the British scene
:27:33. > :27:36.well enough to know that none of that might count for anything. If
:27:37. > :27:41.she was going to concede something big hit Britain in the European
:27:42. > :27:44.Union, she sees what is going on on the Tory backbenches and she knows
:27:45. > :27:48.it is just one concession after another and she is giving it away to
:27:49. > :27:53.find that Britain still goes down the same route anyway. That was the
:27:54. > :28:00.nonsense of starting with a pledge to a referendum when he should start
:28:01. > :28:06.with proper negotiators straightaway. Mrs Merkel will still
:28:07. > :28:11.be there in 2017. Mr Cameron might not be so why go out on a limb?
:28:12. > :28:18.Absolutely. Asking the whole of Europe to cater to add to show
:28:19. > :28:22.election timetable is also bananas. President Hollande has made it clear
:28:23. > :28:27.he will not do that. We are going to see European elections in May from
:28:28. > :28:30.the mainstream right to the very hard right are going to do really
:28:31. > :28:43.well and some of the very hard left will do as -- do well. This whole
:28:44. > :28:47.question of David Cameron's allies elsewhere and where are they, does
:28:48. > :28:52.he have remotely enough of them to try and push forward the reforms
:28:53. > :28:57.they are looking for, he started off with this disastrous decision to
:28:58. > :29:05.pull the Conservative Party out of the moderate centre-right grouping
:29:06. > :29:10.in Strasbourg... Which Mrs Merkel as part of. Exactly, he lost all those
:29:11. > :29:16.allies as the way to buy off the right wing of his own party. Molly
:29:17. > :29:21.is French and she does not think Mr Cameron will get his way on this so
:29:22. > :29:28.I think we will move on. Thereby hangs a tale! How serious is it that
:29:29. > :29:31.Labour and the Tories are hinting that they would rather be in a
:29:32. > :29:37.minority government than being coalition again with the Lib Dems.
:29:38. > :29:44.Good luck with that, I would say. Trying to make a minority government
:29:45. > :29:51.work... They would assume that the Nationalists and the Ulster MPs and
:29:52. > :29:59.others would all gang up on them at once. I was waiting for this moment
:30:00. > :30:03.actually, for pressure in both large parties to rule out future pacts.
:30:04. > :30:11.Number one, it is up to the electorate, number two, you cannot
:30:12. > :30:15.buck the electoral market. We are in a situation where, the days of large
:30:16. > :30:26.majorities for either big party do seem to be over. Apart from anything
:30:27. > :30:29.else, it seems absolutely extraordinary that David Cameron
:30:30. > :30:34.would want to rule out the coalition. Firstly, you want to be
:30:35. > :30:37.in office. Secondly, surely at some point he has to defend what the
:30:38. > :30:41.coalition has done and he has to say, this has been a good
:30:42. > :30:45.unsuccessful government which took care of the economic crisis, and on
:30:46. > :30:52.top of that did it useful reforms in health, welfare, and we have all of
:30:53. > :30:57.these achievements to talk about. If you say, the last thing I will do is
:30:58. > :31:03.be in a coalition again, it implies a terrible government. If we had an
:31:04. > :31:07.alternative vote system... Our problem at the moment is that you
:31:08. > :31:13.have coalition politics with first past the post. He cannot say, vote
:31:14. > :31:17.Tory first, Lib Dems second. He cannot go to the electorate may
:31:18. > :31:22.coalition under first past the post. It would be madness to rule out
:31:23. > :31:28.coalition, and madness to go into a general election saying you did not
:31:29. > :31:33.want an overall majority. I am Ed Miliband and it is the day after the
:31:34. > :31:41.election, I am ten votes shy of an overall majority, ten seats shy of
:31:42. > :31:46.an overall majority in the Commons, and there are 30 Lib Dems still in
:31:47. > :31:51.the Commons so I could go into government with them and get a small
:31:52. > :31:58.overall majority. There are also 20 or 30 MPs from smaller parties. What
:31:59. > :32:02.would you advise? This is Wilson in 74. It would depend on whether there
:32:03. > :32:08.is a feeling the public would take a second election. If you went alone,
:32:09. > :32:13.that is the risk you would run. Did Scotland vote for independence in
:32:14. > :32:18.this scenario? If Scotland votes for independence there would have to be
:32:19. > :32:22.another election anyway. You keep options open. It would be madness to
:32:23. > :32:29.listen to Len McCluskey and rule out the coalition. I may well advise him
:32:30. > :32:33.to go for the coalition. It would depend on the circumstances. You
:32:34. > :32:42.cannot assume the Lib Dems would agree to confidence and supply. You
:32:43. > :32:47.do not have too agreed to that. With 30 MPs, they would not be looking
:32:48. > :32:52.forward to a second election. I want to ask about this Harriet Harman
:32:53. > :32:57.business and the Daily Mail. Why did she not simply do what Patricia
:32:58. > :33:01.Hewitt has done to Mike and say, as general secretary them I take
:33:02. > :33:07.responsibility for mistakes. I got it wrong on PIE. I apologise. If she
:33:08. > :33:14.had said something similar, end of. Number one, she wasn't the general
:33:15. > :33:16.secretary. Shami Chakrabarti as the current general secretary and
:33:17. > :33:21.Patricia Hewitt as the previous general secretary, quite right for
:33:22. > :33:27.them to say that. This was about smearing Harriet Harman. Come on!
:33:28. > :33:31.This has been around for the last eight years. If you think back to
:33:32. > :33:39.the 1970s, this vile organisation... There is a leading
:33:40. > :33:45.article in a newspaper that -- there is not a leading article that has
:33:46. > :33:50.not said she got it wrong. If she apologised, it would have been,
:33:51. > :33:56.Harriet Harman admits, as if she had some ties with the organisation. She
:33:57. > :33:59.is still in that position, because Patricia Hewitt has apologised so
:34:00. > :34:05.the pressure is on Harriet Harman and it will go on for days. Do you
:34:06. > :34:08.think it is because, people like Harriet Harman, the Labour Party,
:34:09. > :34:13.they hate the Daily Mail. Ed Miliband hates it, too and we know
:34:14. > :34:17.what it did about his father. Do you think her judgement was skewed
:34:18. > :34:21.because she was up against the Daily Mail? I can't help but think there
:34:22. > :34:26.is a bunker mentality when it comes to issues to do with the Mail. This
:34:27. > :34:29.is their payback for the fact that Ed Miliband gained public support
:34:30. > :34:36.over their attack on his father, right. But the reason people throw
:34:37. > :34:41.mud is because it sticks, unfortunately. So it's very, very
:34:42. > :34:51.damaging. It would still stick if she had apologised. The interview
:34:52. > :34:56.she gave was such a disaster. They had their annual meeting at Oxford
:34:57. > :34:58.University. The police didn't move against them. Patricia Hewitt has
:34:59. > :35:04.apologised because there is some thing to apologise for what did the
:35:05. > :35:12.Daily Mail say about PIE in the 70s? I have to apologise because we
:35:13. > :35:16.have run out of time. Now, in its defence, the Daily Mail
:35:17. > :35:18.claimed this week that "it is a newspaper's job is to ask awkward
:35:19. > :35:22.questions". And the Mail certainly does ask the questions that matter.
:35:23. > :35:24.Such as, why did Harriet Harman not take action against the Paedophile
:35:25. > :35:27.Information Exchange, does Harriet Harman cause cancer, why is Harriet
:35:28. > :35:31.Harman encouraging Romanian gypsies to park their caravans in Hyde Park,
:35:32. > :35:40.and why does she not apologise for being the main cause of global
:35:41. > :35:43.warming? Because she is, you know, I read it in the Mail. The Mail
:35:44. > :35:46.certainly likes to consider itself attuned to the sensitivities of
:35:47. > :35:49.Middle England. But are we all getting way too sensitive about
:35:50. > :35:51.everything? We decided it was time to put "sensitivites" in this week's
:35:52. > :36:10.Spotlight? People have been voting for UKIP
:36:11. > :36:15.macro as a protest vote, and they are mastering they might get in.
:36:16. > :36:20.What kind of protest is that? It is like defecating in your hotel bed as
:36:21. > :36:33.a protest against hotel service and then realising you have to sit on it
:36:34. > :36:38.-- sleep in it. Jokes can hurt, of course. Just ask Olympic swimmer
:36:39. > :36:42.Rebecca Adlington, who suffered jibes about her appearance and has
:36:43. > :36:46.reportedly taken action and had a nose job. But are we now so
:36:47. > :36:51.sensitive we can't even listen to opinions we don't like. Poor old
:36:52. > :36:55.Piers Morgan has had his poorly performance show cancelled amid
:36:56. > :37:00.claims that Americans don't like being lectured to by slimy English
:37:01. > :37:06.men who don't understand their indigent is gun culture. And what
:37:07. > :37:11.about religious sensitivities? In Katy Perry's new video, this man was
:37:12. > :37:16.wearing an Islamic pendant, until the image was proclaimed blasphemous
:37:17. > :37:22.and edited to avoid offending Moslems. She is a regular Salman
:37:23. > :37:28.Rushdie. Whether it is humour, politics, religion, are we getting
:37:29. > :37:32.too touchy? Should sensitivities always be listened to and pandered
:37:33. > :37:40.to, or do we need to grow a thicker skin?
:37:41. > :37:45.Spitting image. It would be great to have it now. I used to write on
:37:46. > :37:49.that. The first time you had me on we were talking about that and I
:37:50. > :38:00.said, I used to write on it. Kenneth Clarke looked terrified. He used to
:38:01. > :38:05.be a slug on it. When you write comedy, do you ever have the back of
:38:06. > :38:12.your mind people's sensitivities? Absolutely, all the time. That pops
:38:13. > :38:18.out as a funny one-liner but it is contextualised in the show. I think
:38:19. > :38:23.about the media that is going on as well. The stuff that I do live and
:38:24. > :38:28.put out on DVD, which goes out on cable channels, which I would not do
:38:29. > :38:32.on the BBC because it is responded to differently by the press
:38:33. > :38:38.depending on which broadcaster puts it out. I think about it all the
:38:39. > :38:42.time really carefully. In the scale of sensitivity, do you expect
:38:43. > :38:45.politicians to have a thicker skin than others? Are you prepared to be
:38:46. > :38:53.more rude about politicians than, say, sports stars? I don't really
:38:54. > :38:57.like sports stars either. With politicians, I'm getting to the
:38:58. > :39:01.point where they start to be in the audience, which is strange, all
:39:02. > :39:05.people who work for them and know them. Then you feel crestfallen,
:39:06. > :39:11.because you are not attacking an abstract idea, but a person. Rebecca
:39:12. > :39:16.Adlington, there were some terrible things on Twitter. That of the
:39:17. > :39:21.public, though. As a result of that, would you be more sensitive
:39:22. > :39:25.towards her? If it wasn't that she had been in the news, I wouldn't
:39:26. > :39:30.even know who she was. I'm not interested in sport. Also, I don't
:39:31. > :39:36.tend to do stuff about people's appearance, or people that have any
:39:37. > :39:39.responsibility for anything. She is not responsible for anything, not in
:39:40. > :39:45.a position of power. It is not anything to do with me. What about
:39:46. > :39:52.journalists. You would be sensitive about Piers Morgan. I have done
:39:53. > :39:55.stuff about some journalists, about opinion columnists and stuff like
:39:56. > :40:01.that. But they do it about other people, so it opens up the field.
:40:02. > :40:04.You do think about consequences. One of the problems with the BBC is that
:40:05. > :40:08.you have to think carefully that so many people have a political or
:40:09. > :40:12.commercial opposition to it that they are keen to take what you have
:40:13. > :40:17.said out of context, call you a BBC man and say, why are we paying the
:40:18. > :40:22.license fee for this? The same thing on a cable channel owned by sky will
:40:23. > :40:26.never get picked up. You have the joke about my daughter. I understand
:40:27. > :40:41.the BBC is moving your programme so it does not clash. -- you had the
:40:42. > :40:52.joke about Nigel Farage. We had flagged it. I understand the
:40:53. > :40:59.sensitivity about it. I can see why it is an issue. Have we become too
:41:00. > :41:04.sensitive? Probably. We are also a bit too ready to insult people. You
:41:05. > :41:08.know how it is that no one would be rude to you on the street but in a
:41:09. > :41:11.car they start yelling obscenities because they are behind glass, well
:41:12. > :41:16.it is like that when you become a journalist. When you are writing,
:41:17. > :41:22.you feel free to say whatever you like about people. I think we ought
:41:23. > :41:25.to be careful about that. I used to write a column of theatre criticism
:41:26. > :41:33.and I once wrote something about actor, a lady actor, and she wrote
:41:34. > :41:39.to me. I felt so badly about what I'd written. I was just a journalist
:41:40. > :41:44.trying to fill up my column. You have to put something in. You're not
:41:45. > :41:50.always that careful about what you say, whether you have researched it,
:41:51. > :41:52.or whether it is true. There are responsibilities. I never
:41:53. > :41:57.anticipated being in situations where I would meet people I had done
:41:58. > :42:01.anything about. I never go to showbiz things, awards or anything,
:42:02. > :42:04.but I now consciously avoid them because I don't want my perception
:42:05. > :42:10.of a person to be altered by having met them. Ten years ago I had a
:42:11. > :42:22.funny routine about you. I would now feel compromised about doing it. You
:42:23. > :42:25.never know what's coming next? Your art is changed. Satirists,
:42:26. > :42:29.comedians, when they become celebrities you are compromised
:42:30. > :42:33.because you drift into that world. A lot of the best people have a degree
:42:34. > :42:38.of anonymity. Chris Morris, you will never see him at anything. He does
:42:39. > :42:44.not become friends with the people. Have we become too sensitive? I
:42:45. > :42:50.don't think so. I remember a show in Birmingham in the 1970s, and the way
:42:51. > :42:58.that the comedian picked out a black man in the audience, and it was just
:42:59. > :43:02.Krul. It was the start of the kind of feeling that this is totally
:43:03. > :43:08.unacceptable. Thank God we became a bit more sensitive. My question is,
:43:09. > :43:14.what has happened to satire? Spitting image finished in 1996. I
:43:15. > :43:23.grew up on that was the week that was and all of that. Rory Bremner is
:43:24. > :43:26.not there. Mike Yarwood. What is perhaps a perceived failure of
:43:27. > :43:29.comedians to do satire goes hand-in-hand with how politics has
:43:30. > :43:38.got better at managing personalities. If you look at people
:43:39. > :43:46.from that era, they were much more obviously able to be caricatured.
:43:47. > :43:52.What about Jeremy Hunt, for example? I read a sketch about him yesterday.
:43:53. > :44:00.But there isn't an obvious physical way into it. That aspect of it is
:44:01. > :44:06.micromanaged. Where should we June in to be offended? Saturday at 10pm,
:44:07. > :44:10.unless you live in Wales, where it could be at any random point.
:44:11. > :44:14.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us because we've got
:44:15. > :44:18.tickets to Piers Morgan's welcome home party at Lou Lou's, and as you
:44:19. > :44:22.can imagine, it's not exactly a sell out. But we leave you tonight with
:44:23. > :44:24.an exclusive glimpse of the Department for Work and Pensions
:44:25. > :44:31.universal credit IT system, still, according to IDS, on budget and on
:44:32. > :44:35.track. Nighty-night. Don't let the inevitable IT failure bite.