:00:17. > :00:19.As spring sunshine finally makes an appearance, we try to look Tributes
:00:20. > :00:22.have been pouring in after the sad and untimely death of union leader
:00:23. > :00:26.Bob Crow, so what will his legacy be? Journalist and left wing
:00:27. > :00:36.activist Owen Jones thinks the future for the trade union movement
:00:37. > :00:40.is bright. Bob Crowe got a lot of stick for taking holidays in the
:00:41. > :00:43.sun, but he wanted to make sure it wasn't just sunshine for the rich.
:00:44. > :00:47.Ed Miliband hopes the sun is shining on his chances of re-election after
:00:48. > :00:51.he rules out holding an automatic EU referendum. But will the voters warm
:00:52. > :00:58.to his policy on Europe? The Spectator's Isabel Hardman basks in
:00:59. > :01:04.the Westminster sunshine. When the sun is out, there is nothing quite
:01:05. > :01:06.like messing about on the river. But back in Westminster, is Ed
:01:07. > :01:09.Miliband's Europe Holocene or let's see?
:01:10. > :01:12.And here comes the Sol, as we shine a light on some inconvenient truths.
:01:13. > :01:21.Former footballer Sol Campbell refuses to live under a cloud.
:01:22. > :01:23.Believe it or not, this is not a real field. I am not supposed to
:01:24. > :01:26.tell you that. Bring me sunshine, bring me
:01:27. > :01:43.laughter, bring me This Week. Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, a
:01:44. > :01:44.week when Nick Clegg, in a fit of patriotic twaddle, listed
:01:45. > :01:48.flip-flops, originating in ancient Egypy circa 4000 BC, among those
:01:49. > :01:52.things that made him proud to be British. Flip-flops! Who would have
:01:53. > :01:55.thunk it, for a Lib Dem? What happened to sandals? But after the
:01:56. > :01:58.party's flip-flops on tuition fees, deficit cutting and VAT increases,
:01:59. > :02:03.not to mention a referendum on Europe, flip-flops are the Lib Dem
:02:04. > :02:06.footwear of choice these days. No doubt compulsory beard shaving and
:02:07. > :02:12.bacon and eggs for breakfast instead of muesli can't be far behind. It
:02:13. > :02:14.was also the week when our self-styled ethical bank, the Co-op,
:02:15. > :02:18.revealed that despite record ?2 billion losses and 5,000 job cuts,
:02:19. > :02:22.it had agreed to pay its new boss ?3.6 million, which rather took him
:02:23. > :02:29.out of ethics and propelled him into greedy, money-grabbing, fat cat
:02:30. > :02:31.country. The embarrassed bank then took a leaf out of Cleggover's
:02:32. > :02:36.proud-to-be-British playbook, and flip-flopped by accepting his
:02:37. > :02:40.resignation. The new boss will be paid in Co-op stamps, won't enjoy a
:02:41. > :02:44.divi but will be entitled to a free pair of flip-flops every second
:02:45. > :02:48.year, courtesy of the Lib Dems, who pointedly didn't name the Co-op as
:02:49. > :02:52.one of their favourite things. Bet they would've done before it gave
:02:53. > :02:57.ethics a bad name. And, no, the Reverend Flowers can't apply for his
:02:58. > :03:00.old job back. Speaking of those who couldn't tell their flips from their
:03:01. > :03:04.flops, even though they've had more than their fair share of the latter,
:03:05. > :03:08.I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two men who have both been invited
:03:09. > :03:12.to spend the weekend with Vince Cable and his wife, and couldn't
:03:13. > :03:15.think of anything worse. Think of the them as the George Osborne and
:03:16. > :03:19.Mrs George Osborne of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:20. > :03:27.of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson and #sadmanonatrain Michael
:03:28. > :03:34."Chatanooga" Portillo. Michael, your moment of the week? Well, our Prime
:03:35. > :03:39.Minister has been in Israel where he made a good speech which was quite
:03:40. > :03:43.well received. But he felt obliged to urge the Israelis to make a peace
:03:44. > :03:50.settlement with their Arab neighbours, the Palestinians, and
:03:51. > :03:53.this is obviously completely out of the question. Mr Netanyahu is not
:03:54. > :03:58.interested in the two state solution, not even interested in
:03:59. > :04:04.stopping building settlements on Arab territory, disputed territory.
:04:05. > :04:08.Mahmoud Abbas does not represent the sort of leader you could do a deal
:04:09. > :04:12.with anyway. I think for the Prime Minister to go there and urge a
:04:13. > :04:16.peace process is at best platitudinous and at worst a sign of
:04:17. > :04:20.a country that still thinks of itself as being a great power. We
:04:21. > :04:24.have to get used to the idea that we are not a great power and weak do
:04:25. > :04:29.not have to go around the world is telling everyone what they should be
:04:30. > :04:35.doing. The public sector review bodies made their recommendation
:04:36. > :04:36.today, 1%. I think there has been an extraordinary acceptance among
:04:37. > :04:45.public sector workers over the last few dear Asch macro years that in
:04:46. > :04:49.the age of austerity things have to be reined in. But Jeremy Hunt has
:04:50. > :04:52.said he will not implement it for a whole group of workers on
:04:53. > :04:57.increments. I think this is a huge mistake. Increments are what
:04:58. > :05:01.management want because instead of getting straight onto maximum pay,
:05:02. > :05:04.you get there gradually over time. To say these people cannot have
:05:05. > :05:09.their 1% increase because they will get an incremental increase is to
:05:10. > :05:12.send the message that these increments, that actually work more
:05:13. > :05:16.for management and the tax payer than for the workers, are something
:05:17. > :05:21.trade unions will be wanting to get rid of. I think it is a big mistake.
:05:22. > :05:24.And for the cost of it, given so many managers have been re-recruited
:05:25. > :05:30.having been given big pay-outs to leave the NHS, it will cause a huge
:05:31. > :05:33.stink for a little amount of money. I have some quick moments that add
:05:34. > :05:39.up to something important. The Kremlin has closed all non-Vladimir
:05:40. > :05:43.Putin media, or taken it over. There is only one message coming out now,
:05:44. > :05:46.and that is that the Ukraine has been taken over by fascist
:05:47. > :05:52.revolutionaries and Russian speakers are now in jeopardy. And the Russian
:05:53. > :05:57.army has begun new manoeuvres on the Russian border. When you add up all
:05:58. > :05:59.of that, this crisis is not over yet.
:06:00. > :06:02.Many kind words were said this week about union leader Bob Crow, who
:06:03. > :06:06.suddenly passed away at the age of only 52. They weren't words he often
:06:07. > :06:09.heard when he was alive, especially when his militancy led to London
:06:10. > :06:12.commuters or the country's rail travellers being inconvenienced by
:06:13. > :06:15.industrial disruption. But there was general agreement that he was good
:06:16. > :06:18.for his members, securing them pay and conditions others could only
:06:19. > :06:21.dream of. So when public sector workers continue to face a real
:06:22. > :06:26.terms cut in their wages, should hard-working people who want to get
:06:27. > :06:31.on, get on and join a union? We turned to journalist and left wing
:06:32. > :06:54.activist Owen Jones. This is his take of the week.
:06:55. > :07:00.The news about trade union leader Bob Crow this week shows that it
:07:01. > :07:04.takes a death for the establishment to say anything kind about the
:07:05. > :07:12.unions. Such is his legacy that people have been coming into this
:07:13. > :07:16.shop and asking for a Bob Crow cap. But Bob Crow's legacy went further
:07:17. > :07:22.than pushing up the sales of these. He was a man who took on the
:07:23. > :07:25.politics of envy. The media used to tell low paid workers, you are
:07:26. > :07:28.getting paid poverty workers but look how much the RMT workers are
:07:29. > :07:32.getting and they have the cheek to go on strike. His message was
:07:33. > :07:37.simple. You should be dragged up to our level, he told them, not asked
:07:38. > :07:43.down to yours. A race to the top, not a race to the bottom. The unions
:07:44. > :07:46.are Britain's biggest democratic movement, representing over 6
:07:47. > :07:50.million workers from supermarket checkout workers to rubbish bin
:07:51. > :07:59.collectors, call centre workers to teachers, pillars of any decent
:08:00. > :08:03.society. Unions founded the Labour Party to
:08:04. > :08:06.give workers a political voice, but now even the party leaders seem
:08:07. > :08:12.often embarrassed about being linked to them. The Tories meanwhile are
:08:13. > :08:20.bankrolled by hedge fund managers, bankers, legal loan sharks. But the
:08:21. > :08:25.media barely even blinks. We need trade unions more than ever. We are
:08:26. > :08:28.living through the longest fall in workers' wages since Queen Victoria
:08:29. > :08:33.sat on the throne. We live in a country where most people in poverty
:08:34. > :08:39.are in work, and we have an army of zero hours contract workers. Here is
:08:40. > :08:43.how we can remember Bob Crow. First, join a union. Secondly, the unions
:08:44. > :08:48.can learn from his determination and courage. Bob Crow was demonised in
:08:49. > :08:53.large part because he won. But he showed that other workers, with a
:08:54. > :09:00.bit of backbone, can win as well. I will doff my cap to that.
:09:01. > :09:05.And from Laird London Hatter's Emporium in Covent Garden to our own
:09:06. > :09:17.little mad hatter's emporium here in the heart of Westminster, Owen Jones
:09:18. > :09:25.comes cap in hand. Well come back. Ouch! Michael, do the unions, as we
:09:26. > :09:31.have known them, have much of a role in the 21st-century? No, they do
:09:32. > :09:34.not. I thought that peace was amusingly contrary. He talked about
:09:35. > :09:40.representing 6 million people, but they used to represent 11 million
:09:41. > :09:43.people. 13 million, thank you. There has been a massive decline because
:09:44. > :09:47.people have been disillusioned by trade unions. They have done
:09:48. > :09:51.enormous amounts of damage. It is interesting that you talk about the
:09:52. > :09:55.way in which the living conditions of RMT members have been improved.
:09:56. > :10:00.This was true of the miners in the 1970s. The miners were the
:10:01. > :10:04.aristocracy, getting vast amounts of money. What was the result of that?
:10:05. > :10:09.A policy by the employers and the government to close the coalmines,
:10:10. > :10:11.so there are none left. The same is happening in the London Underground.
:10:12. > :10:16.Because they are paid so much there is a policy of closing ticket
:10:17. > :10:19.offices, and going to unmanned trains. These victories that are
:10:20. > :10:23.claimed, where workers get lots of money, they are temporary victories.
:10:24. > :10:29.The real problem with trade unions is that they are interested in their
:10:30. > :10:33.members, not wider society. So the interests of the members, as Bob
:10:34. > :10:38.Crow saw it, could lead to a strike to close down the underground
:10:39. > :10:41.system, could do great damage to the economy, could inconvenience
:10:42. > :10:44.thousands of commuters, could do damage to unemployed people, because
:10:45. > :10:50.trade unions are only interested in people who are employed, because
:10:51. > :10:55.they pay subs. Firstly, ticket office collectors are not
:10:56. > :10:59.represented by the RMT. But the point is that if we look at workers
:11:00. > :11:03.across the country at the moment, we live in a country where most people
:11:04. > :11:08.in poverty are in work. They get up in the morning, they struggle, and
:11:09. > :11:10.they earn their poverty. We have millions of workers choosing between
:11:11. > :11:16.heating their homes and feeding their kids. We have a situation with
:11:17. > :11:19.zero hours contracts which is like a return to the Victorian era, where
:11:20. > :11:23.dockers would march to the yard and stick up their hand hoping to get
:11:24. > :11:28.work. These days, workers get a text message at 6am telling them if they
:11:29. > :11:33.have any hours on that day. What Bob Crow's model was, it was quite
:11:34. > :11:38.specific to the London Underground, you are right. It is harder often to
:11:39. > :11:42.unionise other workplaces. The reason we have had this decline in
:11:43. > :11:46.trade unions is not disillusionment. The polls show that those out of
:11:47. > :11:49.unions often have a favourable view of trade unions. It is the do with
:11:50. > :11:53.the disappearance of traditional industries, with communities based
:11:54. > :12:00.around steelworks, factories, mines, a shift to a different form of
:12:01. > :12:04.economy. For example, today, as many people work in call centres as used
:12:05. > :12:07.to work in the mines. Retail is the second biggest employer in the
:12:08. > :12:11.country. Because there is such a big turnover in workers, it is often
:12:12. > :12:15.hard to unionise. What trade unions need to do, and I am not someone to
:12:16. > :12:22.defend the status quo, despite the odds against trades unions, is to
:12:23. > :12:24.adapt to the conditions, find new ways of organising, not just in the
:12:25. > :12:31.workplace but also in the wider community. Might I ask a question?
:12:32. > :12:34.Do you not see any connection between the fact that the industries
:12:35. > :12:39.that were heavily unionised, where there were many members, have been
:12:40. > :12:42.closed down, and the fact that they were unionised? Do you not see the
:12:43. > :12:47.connection, for example in the mining industry? I think that is a
:12:48. > :12:51.revisionist view of what happened in the mines, to be frank. We saw a
:12:52. > :12:55.range of industries which disappeared in the 80s. If we want
:12:56. > :12:58.to go over what your government did, we can look at the way the pound was
:12:59. > :13:07.increased, to make imports competitive. Should the unions
:13:08. > :13:10.become more militant? Not necessarily. I am surprised that
:13:11. > :13:14.Michael's analysis. The couple of weeks ago he was telling us one of
:13:15. > :13:17.the reasons why he did not get support to get the last track of the
:13:18. > :13:22.Conservative leadership was because he did not believe there needed to
:13:23. > :13:25.be more union legislation. I was hoping there would be a right of
:13:26. > :13:28.centre view about the importance of trade Unions, as there is
:13:29. > :13:33.practically everywhere in Europe. They are an essential part of a
:13:34. > :13:38.mature democracy. The militancy bit, think about Bob Crow, whose
:13:39. > :13:41.membership did increase. The railways are growing, and more
:13:42. > :13:47.people are using railways, and it was unionised. The thing about Bob
:13:48. > :13:53.Crow, he was a negotiator. He did not believe that the purpose of
:13:54. > :13:57.trade unions was to be used as cannon fodder in a class war. He
:13:58. > :14:05.believed in getting a good deal for his members. Militancy is often
:14:06. > :14:08.described as having a strike ballot. Michael's government introduced laws
:14:09. > :14:12.that actually trade union negotiators have used rather well.
:14:13. > :14:17.You need a ballot now before a strike. I do not disagree with that.
:14:18. > :14:21.But the fact that you do that shows that the membership actually feel
:14:22. > :14:24.strongly about this issue, and gives the negotiator, Bob Crow and many
:14:25. > :14:33.others around the country, a great deal of power. Most of them don't
:14:34. > :14:40.vote. Can I respond to that? Let's change the law. You don't deny that
:14:41. > :14:46.most of them don't vote. I am going to come up with a solution, which is
:14:47. > :14:48.workplace -based balloting. You will not get large numbers of people
:14:49. > :14:53.voting when you rely on people having to send back a letter to
:14:54. > :14:57.vote. It is quite a simple change to the law and I don't know why the
:14:58. > :15:01.government don't do it. Surely militancy only works when, like Bob
:15:02. > :15:05.Crow, you control a public sector monopoly and can hold the people to
:15:06. > :15:12.ransom. Most unions don't have that power. Honestly, the way you speak
:15:13. > :15:17.about unions! I don't accept the words you are using, militancy,
:15:18. > :15:20.holding people to ransom. Obviously it is easier in certain sectors to
:15:21. > :15:29.win games and concessions. Nonetheless, if I think of other
:15:30. > :15:31.examples, electricity went on strike last year against powerful BT, they
:15:32. > :15:39.didn't have a monopoly. But they won. You have picked the one public
:15:40. > :15:50.private sector strike where they won. They really won at Grangemouth,
:15:51. > :16:05.didn't they? The electricians are not militants, for a start. The RMT
:16:06. > :16:12.was. It does not work forever either. The point Michael made is
:16:13. > :16:19.that miners tried to hold his Government to ran some. They were
:16:20. > :16:25.equal in who they held to ran some. Look at that - they don't exist any
:16:26. > :16:29.more. You are blaming the miners for a concerted attempt to take on a
:16:30. > :16:35.mining industry... I think you will find it was an attempt by Scargill
:16:36. > :16:41.to take on Thatcher's Government. They took on the Labour Government
:16:42. > :16:47.too Do you want me to answer? Carry on! What happened in that particular
:16:48. > :16:52.case, in the miner's dispute, is in 1974 they helped to take done
:16:53. > :16:58.Heath's Government. It was admitted that closure
:16:59. > :17:06.programme went too far. He hated Heath more than the miners.
:17:07. > :17:12.Bob Crow was famous for his militancy. That is why he did so
:17:13. > :17:18.well for the workers. Do He was no or more less militant... There were
:17:19. > :17:22.a lot more strikes in his region. You were right on the first one -
:17:23. > :17:27.there were a lot of ballots. How many led to a strike? That
:17:28. > :17:33.strengthened his hand in negotiation. Did you agree with
:17:34. > :17:38.Owen, that many of the Labour leaders today seem embarrassed to be
:17:39. > :17:42.linked to the unions? I am not embarrassed by the trade unions. He
:17:43. > :17:47.did not have you in mind! You said yourself, to quote you,
:17:48. > :17:54.sometimes they are treated like an embarrassing relative... That was of
:17:55. > :17:59.Monks. That can sometimes be the case. I accept that. The link is not
:18:00. > :18:02.the unions writing out a shopping list, giving it to a Labour
:18:03. > :18:09.Government, saying carry that out I doesn't work like that. What strike
:18:10. > :18:14.can you imagine the Labour leadership supporting? No many. What
:18:15. > :18:20.strikes would I suppose? Quite a few. One point you have to address.
:18:21. > :18:25.It came out and that is that real wages have now been in decline in
:18:26. > :18:31.this country for over ten years. Wages now account for a smaller
:18:32. > :18:36.percentage of GDP than almost at any time since records began. Profits
:18:37. > :18:40.account for a bigger percentage at any time. With the not - it could be
:18:41. > :18:44.done in Owen's way or another way. Is there not a need for a
:18:45. > :18:51.rebalancing to see pay beginning to rise again for average and
:18:52. > :18:56.below-average workers? I am very unhappy about growing inequality in
:18:57. > :19:00.society. I fear if what happens is some trade unions manage to get more
:19:01. > :19:06.for their members, what that will mean is fewer will be ememployed. --
:19:07. > :19:11.employed. Their interest is in the membership. They are not concerned
:19:12. > :19:18.about unemployed people. That is not true. . Throughout the north. This
:19:19. > :19:23.happened under new Labour and this Government. People were forced into
:19:24. > :19:31.in-work benefits. They were forced to take on, depend on cheap credit.
:19:32. > :19:36.It sucked demand out of the economy. Let's have strong trade unions to
:19:37. > :19:41.secure good pay rises for all workers. Like Norway, like Finland -
:19:42. > :19:49.more equal. Be in the EU and have labour, you
:19:50. > :19:53.are bound to have wages in this country... It has not happened in
:19:54. > :20:00.other countries. It does coincide with the period we've been in a
:20:01. > :20:09.Labour Party. I like interruptions. It's late. It
:20:10. > :20:13.is Nigel Farage-late! I know what I mean. If you believe the rumours,
:20:14. > :20:19.vigorously denied by all parties involved - the BBC lawyers have told
:20:20. > :20:25.me to underline! Stick with us all the same, waiting is footballer Sol
:20:26. > :20:28.Campbell, here to talk. He will talk about the inconvenient truths we
:20:29. > :20:34.would rather not face up to. Speaking of which, though we love to
:20:35. > :20:40.admit it, most of the viewers can not string a sentence together.
:20:41. > :20:44.And of course, if you don't have access to the internet, just pick up
:20:45. > :20:51.a pen and write tows. We promise to keep everything 100% confidential.
:20:52. > :21:01.Even if your handwriting is not readable. We do love a letter. We
:21:02. > :21:06.read something this week that alarmed us - a Great White shark is
:21:07. > :21:10.heading right to the UK. So we sent Isabel Hardman down to the Thames to
:21:11. > :21:29.keep a look-out. Here is a round-up of the week.
:21:30. > :21:37.Britain is on shark-alert. A Great White, called Lydia, is crossing the
:21:38. > :21:43.Atlantic. Some think she could head for these shores. At least in this
:21:44. > :21:51.place, she'll be in good company. I am going to need a bigger boat!
:21:52. > :21:57.Look, there's a man-eater! The Great White! It's there!
:21:58. > :22:02.Oh, don't listen to him! Some people think that dear old Liz is on her
:22:03. > :22:07.way to the Mediterranean. Soil spoits! It would not be surprising.
:22:08. > :22:12.European waters are dangerous if you are a British politician. Yesterday,
:22:13. > :22:18.Ed Miliband cautiously dipped his toes in the water, but decided no t
:22:19. > :22:25.to take the plunge. The next Labour Government will legislate for a new
:22:26. > :22:29.lock. Not simply a new referendum on any treaty change, transferring
:22:30. > :22:32.transfer of powers, because there have been too many referenda like
:22:33. > :22:37.that in other countries which have been ignored.
:22:38. > :22:40.Ed's supporters are claiming this is a brilliant bit of fly fishing,
:22:41. > :22:45.neither in or out of the water. This is what the Tories call a fudge. The
:22:46. > :22:51.PM, who was out of the country this week, on a visit to Israel, is by
:22:52. > :22:57.all accounts happy to put some clear blue water tweern the two parties
:22:58. > :23:03.and keep the snappers at bay. There'll not be a referendum. The
:23:04. > :23:07.only way to get an in/out referendum and reform in Europe - the only way
:23:08. > :23:12.to get that is to have the Conservatives in Government. Still,
:23:13. > :23:16.Dave shouldn't be too pleased, because Ed Miliband clearly figures
:23:17. > :23:20.that the promise of a referendum will not play very big at the next
:23:21. > :23:25.general election and he can win without one. But one man who was all
:23:26. > :23:28.smiles this week was the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. When
:23:29. > :23:33.Dave is away, he gets the swimming pool to himself. He was so happy, he
:23:34. > :23:36.couldn't help just telling us about everything that he loves. I love
:23:37. > :23:40.Britain. I love it for all its
:23:41. > :23:50.contradictions. I love the telephone - the steam engine - the jet engine
:23:51. > :23:56.- the World Wide Web, theatre. I shipping forecast. T-shirt and
:23:57. > :24:02.flip-flops, even when it is cold. Football fans obsessed with the
:24:03. > :24:11.Premier League. A cup of tea. Nick Clegg says he's going to go on and
:24:12. > :24:16.on and on. The predators are circling the Westminster goldfish
:24:17. > :24:24.bowl, seeing what will happen after 2015. Danny Alexander and Cable are
:24:25. > :24:28.not ready to bite. She does not want him to get mauled
:24:29. > :24:34.like Nick. Who incidentally, she says she is quite a fan of.
:24:35. > :24:40.But even that didn't get Clegg down because next, he got to play the
:24:41. > :24:47.boss at PMQs. He and Harman traded insults about
:24:48. > :24:51.hospital closures, until both sides realised an old fashioned feeding
:24:52. > :24:56.frenzy would be more fun. On this side of the House we are trying to
:24:57. > :24:59.sort out the mess they created F they will not take any
:25:00. > :25:04.responsibility or express any apology, why should we take any of
:25:05. > :25:09.the questions seriously at all? With his broken promises and prosuring,
:25:10. > :25:14.doesn't he realise that he might love Britain, but Britain does not
:25:15. > :25:24.love him back. The bottom of the ocean for that gag, Harriet Harman!
:25:25. > :25:27.# Sail away # Sail away
:25:28. > :25:35.# Sail At the end of the day, it is tough
:25:36. > :25:41.making a living from the bottom of the ocean. Ask Alex Salmond. This
:25:42. > :25:45.week there was a rise in Scotland's spending deficit, not helped by
:25:46. > :25:50.falling North Sea revenues. This week saw the return of a big fish,
:25:51. > :25:55.who swam silently into the referendum debate. We have the "yes"
:25:56. > :26:00.camp, the "no" camp and the Gordon Brown campaign.
:26:01. > :26:04.Yes - he still cannot share the shallows with anyone else.
:26:05. > :26:08.If there is a partnership between the nations of the United Kingdom in
:26:09. > :26:12.the future, then we have to find a way of working together again.
:26:13. > :26:17.We cannot have this permanent standoff between a Scottish
:26:18. > :26:23.Government and the rest of the UK. A permanent standoff! What was he
:26:24. > :26:26.thinking? Number 11. Still waters run deep, you know! There she is,
:26:27. > :26:51.the Great White. The shark! Where? I've got a big one here! Oh! It is a
:26:52. > :26:59.bit of a tidleer, actually. -- tidler, perhaps we didn't need a
:27:00. > :27:09.bigger boat, after all! Miranda joins us. Who writeds this drive
:27:10. > :27:14.have for him? There -- who drives this for him? There is an urge by
:27:15. > :27:20.many on the left of politics to say why should the right own patriotism?
:27:21. > :27:28.You end up with these slightly contrived, lyrical... Slightly! Love
:27:29. > :27:33.letters to the nation. One of the reason is you make a fool of
:27:34. > :27:40.yourself when youtry it. It happens -- when you try it. It happened at a
:27:41. > :27:45.Spring Conference in York. Why doesn't somebody take him aside and
:27:46. > :27:50.say, don't say this - you'll look stupid? The thing is, when you work
:27:51. > :27:55.for a political leader, my feeling is you probably do need somebody in
:27:56. > :28:01.the room - which used to be my role when I worked for Paddy Ashdown -
:28:02. > :28:07.with their head in their hands, predicting disaster at every turn.
:28:08. > :28:14.Would you have taken it from his hand and ripped it out? I would have
:28:15. > :28:20.taken out flip-flops and any reference to footwear!
:28:21. > :28:25.On his performance on PMQs, there seems to be a real sense of
:28:26. > :28:30.animosity between Mr Clegg and the Labour backbenchers - is that right?
:28:31. > :28:34.I think it is. All the way along, during this coalition between the
:28:35. > :28:39.Tories and the Lib Demes, there's been a slightly weird, romantic
:28:40. > :28:43.background narrative that the Lib Demes would find it easier being in
:28:44. > :28:48.Government with the Labour Party. The bad blood between Labour and the
:28:49. > :28:53.Lib Demes is quite serious, I think, from time to time. There's no love
:28:54. > :29:02.lost. Certainly they seem to be enjoying having a go at each other.
:29:03. > :29:08.It is what happens locally. It is the focus leaflets going through the
:29:09. > :29:12.door that are just outrageous. It is far more outrageous than
:29:13. > :29:19.anything the Labour Party would produce. So, you have these battles
:29:20. > :29:25.for local of elections and then you come into Parliament. If you take
:29:26. > :29:29.free school meals. Hull, in my constituency, introduced free school
:29:30. > :29:33.meals ten years ago. First place to do it anywhere in the country. The
:29:34. > :29:36.administration changed to Lib Demes - they got rid of it. Now they are
:29:37. > :29:46.saying the best thing in the world is free school meals. Are you
:29:47. > :29:49.expecting consistency? Exactly! If there is animosity, there is an
:29:50. > :29:54.issue in which you could not get a slip of paper between you and that
:29:55. > :29:56.is Labour has the same policy on the European referendum as the Lib
:29:57. > :30:09.Demes. It is very similar. I am very
:30:10. > :30:14.pleased about that. When Cameron made that speech 13 months ago, I
:30:15. > :30:18.thought that was a misjudgement from a Prime Minister who had been pushed
:30:19. > :30:23.by backbenchers. Only a while before he voted against a proposition
:30:24. > :30:28.saying we needed an in-out referendum now. What Ed Miliband has
:30:29. > :30:35.done, quite elegantly, is to make absolutely clear that actually it is
:30:36. > :30:38.unlikely to the extent of being totally improbable that there will
:30:39. > :30:43.be an in-out referendum. But that does not mean we are against
:30:44. > :30:47.referendums. We had one for Scottish Parliament, Welsh devolution, London
:30:48. > :30:53.mayor, a referendum on the European Community, the common market, in
:30:54. > :30:57.1975. So it made sense to say, unless there is a change, and in
:30:58. > :31:01.that case it won't be about the actual detail of the change, it will
:31:02. > :31:07.be an in-out referendum. In effect, that is what it would be. Is it an
:31:08. > :31:14.elegant change in labour policy? Yes. I can't imagine why it took 13
:31:15. > :31:17.months. I can't imagine why anybody in the Labour Party would argue for
:31:18. > :31:23.Labour Party to promise an in-out referendum in 2017. Ed Miliband does
:31:24. > :31:27.not believe in leaving the European Union. Why would he risked his
:31:28. > :31:32.premiership to have a referendum he does not believe in? The only reason
:31:33. > :31:35.the question of 2017 has come up is because, as Allen has said, 13
:31:36. > :31:41.months ago, the Prime Minister thought it was a way to buy off the
:31:42. > :31:45.backbenchers. So this is a solution to a Conservative Party problem with
:31:46. > :31:49.backbenchers, and with UKIP. But those are not problems that Labour
:31:50. > :31:55.has. I can't imagine why people like Ed Balls ever thought it was a good
:31:56. > :31:59.idea. I can't understand why does a treaty change have two trigger an
:32:00. > :32:04.in-out referendum? Why doesn't a treaty change, which is shorthand
:32:05. > :32:08.for saying that some more powers would be moved from the UK to
:32:09. > :32:12.Brussels, why don't you just have a referendum on the treaty change?
:32:13. > :32:18.Because there is this feeling that several decades have passed since
:32:19. > :32:21.the nation got the chance to approve the relationship. If you can improve
:32:22. > :32:27.the relationship in Britain's favour, you should settle the matter
:32:28. > :32:31.once and for all. To have a referendum on the detail... I take
:32:32. > :32:34.your point but if you went to the British public and said we have a
:32:35. > :32:38.referendum and we want to focus on these clauses in the Treaty of Rome
:32:39. > :32:42.that have changed, in effect it would be about in or out of the
:32:43. > :32:49.European Union. You might as well admit that, yes. I don't see that.
:32:50. > :32:51.Many other countries have had referendums on treaties and the
:32:52. > :32:55.result has been that if they voted the wrong way from the European
:32:56. > :33:01.Union's point of view, they were made to vote again until they got it
:33:02. > :33:04.right. Supposing you do not like the treaty change? Supposing you do not
:33:05. > :33:08.like the powers that a future government has agreed will be moved
:33:09. > :33:14.to Brussels but you don't want to leave the European Union? How do you
:33:15. > :33:18.vote? That is an interesting point. That is why business has welcomed
:33:19. > :33:24.the Labour change of position on the referendum. How do you vote? What
:33:25. > :33:29.choice are you giving me then? Do you have three questions on the
:33:30. > :33:34.paper? You are into the Scottish debate about the questions. You are
:33:35. > :33:39.right, the position is illogical. I worry that whatever referendum we
:33:40. > :33:42.have we will have a yes vote. David Cameron believes he can persuade the
:33:43. > :33:47.British people to vote yes and I think he is right. I think the
:33:48. > :33:51.British are too scared to leave. But they yes vote would then be regarded
:33:52. > :33:55.as an affirmation by the British people of their European destiny.
:33:56. > :33:58.That is a disaster. We are in a perfect position at the moment, in
:33:59. > :34:03.the European but semidetached members, not in the euro zone where
:34:04. > :34:08.the disasters are happening. We do not need to change this. But if we
:34:09. > :34:11.have an affirmation that our future is a European destiny, then the
:34:12. > :34:17.whole thing about joining the euro will come back. I thought of the
:34:18. > :34:22.answer. There would not be a treaty change about unanimity. There cannot
:34:23. > :34:25.be. The British government would have to agree, which is why Ed
:34:26. > :34:28.Miliband will not have a referendum, because they cannot agree to a
:34:29. > :34:33.treaty change that will allow more powerful Brussels. Psion ACPO the
:34:34. > :34:38.government would be recommending yes. I thought your point was what
:34:39. > :34:44.happens if there is a treaty change that we do not disagree with. How do
:34:45. > :34:49.you vote if you don't like the treaty change but you don't want to
:34:50. > :34:53.leave? Doesn't this work to the advantage of the Tories, because
:34:54. > :34:57.whenever you say to Nigel Farage, if you vote UKIP and don't get the
:34:58. > :35:01.Tories, you won't get a referendum. He has always said that Ed Miliband
:35:02. > :35:06.will come out for a referendum, too. That has shot his Fox now. The
:35:07. > :35:13.Tories can now say, if you want an in-out referendum, there is only one
:35:14. > :35:15.party. They could do that. One of their most important supporters,
:35:16. > :35:20.Lord Ashcroft, was warning them today not to fall into the trap that
:35:21. > :35:25.Labour has set. What you don't want to do is what David Cameron famously
:35:26. > :35:31.called banging on about Europe. Nobody in the Tory party ever
:35:32. > :35:37.listens to Lord Ashcroft. Well, possibly they should. That may well
:35:38. > :35:45.be true. If the other parties have it settled in a way that... In the
:35:46. > :35:51.end, are there many votes to be had by saying, as the Tories will, we
:35:52. > :35:57.will give you an in-out referendum? I think not enough. Firstly, it is
:35:58. > :36:01.not top of most people's agenda. Secondly, you have to believe two
:36:02. > :36:05.things. Not only that the Tory party as the any party to vote for for
:36:06. > :36:08.this, but that they will win an overall majority and be in a
:36:09. > :36:11.position to implement it. That is a big thing to believe before
:36:12. > :36:14.breakfast. Now, not many people know this, but
:36:15. > :36:16.our self-styled Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, is actually
:36:17. > :36:20.mixed race, half British, half Dutch. Earlier this week, he listed
:36:21. > :36:23.what makes him proud to be half British. The NHS, the BBC, natch,
:36:24. > :36:28.the shipping forecast, cups of tea, Prince George, flag-waving, and
:36:29. > :36:32.queueing. Next week he's promised to reveal what makes him proud to be
:36:33. > :36:34.half Dutch. So, being a Liberal Democrat, expect clogs, cannabis
:36:35. > :36:37.cafes, the colour orange, Amsterdam's red light district and
:36:38. > :36:44.incredibly cheap university tuition fees that are now attracting British
:36:45. > :36:47.students in record numbers. On second thoughts, maybe he should
:36:48. > :36:50.keep that last one to himself, which is why we've decided to put
:36:51. > :37:09.inconvenient truths in this week's Spotlight.
:37:10. > :37:13.Freshfaced Immigration Minister James Brokenshire thought he was off
:37:14. > :37:18.to a good start by highlighting the inconvenient truth that drives the
:37:19. > :37:22.need for cheap immigrant labour. For too long, the benefits of
:37:23. > :37:26.immigration went to employers who wanted an easy supply of cheap
:37:27. > :37:31.labour, or to the wealthy metropolitan elite who wanted cheap
:37:32. > :37:35.trades men and services. It turned out the wealthy metropolitan elite
:37:36. > :37:40.he criticised included many members of the Cabinet, and even the Prime
:37:41. > :37:44.Minister and his wife. So what are the big truths that get little
:37:45. > :37:49.discussion? Sol Campbell has been tackling the inconvenient truth of
:37:50. > :37:52.racism in football, revealing the abuse he received from supporters,
:37:53. > :37:58.and how attitudes to race possibly hindered his career. I think if I
:37:59. > :38:03.was white, definitely my chances of being captain would have been
:38:04. > :38:07.enhanced. The Metropolitan Police are dealing with harsh accusations,
:38:08. > :38:12.too, following the shocking findings in the Ellison Review. Is the
:38:13. > :38:17.inconvenient truth that those in most need of policing are the police
:38:18. > :38:22.themselves, or are we being unfair? John Humphrys might say so. The BBC
:38:23. > :38:27.likes to be seen as a beacon of impartiality but he claimed this
:38:28. > :38:30.week that for many years the corporation had a broadly liberal
:38:31. > :38:35.bias. Whether in politics, journalism or sport, there are
:38:36. > :38:38.always unspoken issues. Is it because these things are not worthy
:38:39. > :38:49.of discussion, or can we simply not handle the truth? Sol Campbell joins
:38:50. > :38:53.us. Welcome to the programme. Is it an inconvenient truth that football
:38:54. > :38:57.is riddled with racism and homophobia? I think we have come a
:38:58. > :39:01.long way, especially with the racial side. Many clubs are doing
:39:02. > :39:08.fantastic. The FA and the Premier League are doing some stellar staff.
:39:09. > :39:14.I think we have come along way. Better than in your day. For sure.
:39:15. > :39:19.My book reflects what happens to me and what I had to go through. The
:39:20. > :39:24.homophobia aside, generally, has further to go. I don't think we are
:39:25. > :39:27.completely ready for that. They say may be the clubs are ready but on
:39:28. > :39:34.the terraces, I don't think we are ready for that. But, you know, I
:39:35. > :39:37.think it is a work in progress. Is there not still a tendency by
:39:38. > :39:41.football authorities to shove this under the carpet? Not just British
:39:42. > :39:49.football authorities, but sometimes international ones, to. When it
:39:50. > :39:53.comes to the racial side, yes, they have not find some clubs and players
:39:54. > :39:57.enough. Yes, you can say is weeping it under the carpet, a slap on the
:39:58. > :40:06.wrist with petty fines. That side has to change. If you want to really
:40:07. > :40:10.make a stand, I think fines, but also taking points off. Once the
:40:11. > :40:16.points start coming off, maybe internationally or at club level,
:40:17. > :40:21.people start to wake up. It hits the pocket. Also, you want your team or
:40:22. > :40:27.country to qualify. Has the culture in the locker room changed among the
:40:28. > :40:33.players? I think it has, yes. People have to understand. Sometimes people
:40:34. > :40:38.might say stuff in corners, and maybe a couple of players are not
:40:39. > :40:47.involved in that. But that will always go on. I think that goes on
:40:48. > :40:53.in most industries. For stating what many people agree is the obvious,
:40:54. > :40:58.you have come in for a bit of abuse. Doesn't that suggest there is still
:40:59. > :41:05.something wrong? There is something wrong. I am reflecting on what has
:41:06. > :41:08.happened to me. There is maybe an undercurrent, maybe subconsciously
:41:09. > :41:13.sometimes, they do not actually know they are doing it. For instance, you
:41:14. > :41:19.have the FA, who had a football commission recently put together.
:41:20. > :41:23.The first committee, the BBC came to me and said, what is wrong with
:41:24. > :41:28.this? The first thing which was staring at me was that there were no
:41:29. > :41:32.women and no one of Black origin. The BBC asked me to say something
:41:33. > :41:36.about it and I did. It got changed promptly, but for me, the train has
:41:37. > :41:42.gone and you are left at the platform. They rectified it, but it
:41:43. > :41:46.is almost a token thing. It is never the first thing. If you wanted to
:41:47. > :41:49.make a big statement, you would have said, let's get an ex-Black
:41:50. > :41:56.footballer who has done well and put him first, or a woman. And build
:41:57. > :42:00.from there. Do you think, the line was always that it was bad but it is
:42:01. > :42:06.getting better and there is some way to go? It was terrible and it is
:42:07. > :42:11.getting better. In football, as in so many other spheres of life, you
:42:12. > :42:18.get a change on the shop floor, at the coal face, and it takes a long
:42:19. > :42:22.time to up to the top. There are now 25%, a quarter of football league
:42:23. > :42:26.players in all four divisions who are black. But there is one black
:42:27. > :42:32.manager. It takes a long time for that to change around. That is your
:42:33. > :42:36.point, I guess, in terms of captain, manager positions,
:42:37. > :42:41.positions of leadership. Sometimes the diversity is elsewhere and it
:42:42. > :42:44.does not filter through. That has been true of American football as
:42:45. > :42:50.well, where there was a lack of black quarterbacks. Now we see that
:42:51. > :42:55.if you have a black quarterback you can win the Super Bowl, but it took
:42:56. > :42:59.a big push, and a lot of people arguing to make it happen. You are
:43:00. > :43:05.not a football fan but you have something to say. The subject is
:43:06. > :43:08.inconvenient truths. I am reflecting that a few weeks ago we were
:43:09. > :43:12.debating whether we should be boycotting Sochi, because the
:43:13. > :43:16.Russians supposedly had a law which discouraged teaching homosexuality
:43:17. > :43:20.in schools. Had we been staging the World Cup, I wonder if the Russians
:43:21. > :43:25.might have said, giving your record of homophobia in football, is this
:43:26. > :43:28.somewhere we ought to boycott? I think some humility because of
:43:29. > :43:34.inconvenient truths would be right and fitting. You cannot compare our
:43:35. > :43:39.records to the current situation in Russia on homophobia. It is almost a
:43:40. > :43:43.state policy there. I still think we ought to be very modest about it,
:43:44. > :43:46.partly because it persists in football, in the Church of England,
:43:47. > :43:52.and partly because the changes in this country have been very recent.
:43:53. > :43:56.If you were now in contention for the England captaincy, do you think
:43:57. > :44:01.you would be more likely to get it now? Having spoken out, probably
:44:02. > :44:07.not. I mean, do you think things have changed enough rest and Mark I
:44:08. > :44:11.hope so. If someone like me comes around, my stature, record and
:44:12. > :44:16.quality performances year after year, in my mid 20s, hopefully the
:44:17. > :44:18.FA would look upon, maybe sometimes the nation would look upon and the
:44:19. > :44:23.media would get behind someone like that. Good luck with the book.
:44:24. > :44:25.That's your lot for tonight, but not for us, because it's Wealthy
:44:26. > :44:28.Metropolitan Elite night at Lou Lou's, which means the Lithuanian
:44:29. > :44:31.baby-sitters of Cabinet ministers will be stuck at home with little
:44:32. > :44:35.Jemima and Peregrine while they get to dance round their red boxes until
:44:36. > :44:39.the wee small hours. But we leave you tonight with the gathering
:44:40. > :44:43.political storm. As UKIP secure their position in the polls, the
:44:44. > :44:47.party now faces the kind of scrutiny other major parties take for
:44:48. > :44:51.granted. Nigel dismisses many of the accusations levelled at him and the
:44:52. > :44:56.party, but things just got a lot more political for the anti-politics
:44:57. > :44:58.party. Nighty-night. Don't let the clear and outright denial of any
:44:59. > :45:01.wrongdoing bite.