:00:12. > :00:15.As Education Secretary Michael Gove compares himself to Sherlock's
:00:16. > :00:18.right-hand man, Dr Watson, This Week takes you on a 21st Century
:00:19. > :00:21.Westminster adventure. Has Chancellor George Osborne used all
:00:22. > :00:23.his elementary skills to woo the so-called "grey vote"? Our very own
:00:24. > :00:31.political detective, Kevin Maguire, is on the case. This week's Budget
:00:32. > :00:36.was go grey, but was Boy George being a bit too clever? There's
:00:37. > :00:39.nothing very mysterious about President Putin's tactics in the
:00:40. > :00:42.Ukraine. But just how tough should the West get with Russia? Economist
:00:43. > :00:46.and business journalist Liam Halligan thinks we have to be
:00:47. > :00:52.careful painting Putin as a villain. There are two sides to every story,
:00:53. > :01:00.as we sleuths know and this case of Russia verses the West demands your
:01:01. > :01:03.attention. And not a fictional adventure, but one of the world's
:01:04. > :01:09.greatest living explorers, Ranulph Fiennes, joins us to talk adventure
:01:10. > :01:17.and politics. I have get efrs but can I deal with the This Week
:01:18. > :01:26.studio? Is Michael, will you be my Dr Watson? Evening all. Welcome to
:01:27. > :01:29.This Week, a week when Ed Miliband showed it was perfectly possible to
:01:30. > :01:32.respond to a Budget speech without mentioning a single measure in said
:01:33. > :01:36.Budget. And the Tories showed they've not quite got the hang of
:01:37. > :01:39.their new manifestation as the self-styled Workers Party. Yes, the
:01:40. > :01:42.Labour leader decided not to bother thinking on his feet. He just cut
:01:43. > :01:45.and pasted the most well-worn lines from his previous speeches and
:01:46. > :01:52.trotted them out again for our delectation. The Tories guffawed and
:01:53. > :01:55.heckled. But they wouldn't have been in such high spirits if they'd known
:01:56. > :01:58.what was happening over at CCO ,"Condescending Central Office",
:01:59. > :02:00.where Party Chairman Grant Shapps thought he was burnishing his
:02:01. > :02:03.proletarian credentials by unveiling a digital poster which claimed the
:02:04. > :02:07.Chancellor's cuts in Bingo Tax and Beer Duty were meant "to help
:02:08. > :02:10.hard-working people do more of the things they enjoy" - thereby
:02:11. > :02:13.sounding about as out of touch as the last time David Cameron walked
:02:14. > :02:16.into his local food bank in Oxfordshire and asked for some
:02:17. > :02:26.tinned swan and three ounces of Beluga caviar. Clearly, for the new
:02:27. > :02:30.Workers Party, the workers are still another country. Mind you, the
:02:31. > :02:33.Tories have previous on this. Harold Macmillan's famous phrase was,
:02:34. > :02:41."You've never had it so good." Not we. You. Speaking of those who know
:02:42. > :02:44.nothing of how the other half live, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by
:02:45. > :02:48.two cut-price bargain basements who are inexplicably popular. Think of
:02:49. > :02:53.them as the Aldi and Lidl of late night political chat. I speak, of
:02:54. > :03:03.course, of #sadmanonatrain, Michael Portillo, and #badabbotttobreak,
:03:04. > :03:07.Diane Abbott. My moment of the week? I was very intrigued by the
:03:08. > :03:11.revelation that the United States is now able to record every single
:03:12. > :03:15.telephone call made in a particular foreign country. We don't know which
:03:16. > :03:18.foreign country that was. I reflected that with all that
:03:19. > :03:24.information that it is hoovering up, it was unable re foresee what was
:03:25. > :03:28.going to happen in Ukraine and Crimea, after we had more or less
:03:29. > :03:32.pushed the situation into a coup where the President resigned. And
:03:33. > :03:37.now that I think about it, we didn't foresee the Syrian civil war. And
:03:38. > :03:42.now that I think about it, we didn't foresee the revolution in Egypt or
:03:43. > :03:46.the counterrevolution. They didn't foresee a Mr Snowden departing with
:03:47. > :03:51.all the information. Another example. It makes me think the
:03:52. > :03:54.resemblance is similar to the old Soviet Union where little men with
:03:55. > :03:58.headphones listened to every conversation in every hotel bedroom
:03:59. > :04:01.and every telephone call and amassed so much information it was
:04:02. > :04:05.impossible to analyse. That can be the only conclusion. Diane? This
:04:06. > :04:11.morning the House of Commons had tributes to Tony Benn. We had great
:04:12. > :04:17.speeches. Peter tap Sal, Tory, gave a great speech and Hilary Benn,
:04:18. > :04:25.Tony's son gave the best speech I have ever heard him give. But the
:04:26. > :04:29.most amazing was Denis Skinner. A typical Skinner speech with the
:04:30. > :04:34.northern entertainer jokes but underlying was the reality was what
:04:35. > :04:41.he was trying to tell the House what he had loved Tony Benn. It was
:04:42. > :04:45.moving for that reason. # How long does it take to redraw the borders
:04:46. > :04:48.of a country? Three weeks if you're President Putin. Yes, he added
:04:49. > :04:51.Crimea to his Russian Empire in just 21 days, from start to finish. Alex
:04:52. > :04:55.Salmond must be blue-green with envy. But has the British reporting
:04:56. > :04:57.of events in Crimea been too one-sided? Even unfairly
:04:58. > :04:59.anti-Russian? As Barack Obama announces further sanctions today,
:05:00. > :05:03.is the West's approach working, or will it backfire? We turned to
:05:04. > :05:07.Telegraph financial journalist Liam Halligan, who has lived and worked
:05:08. > :05:21.extensively in Russia. This is his take of the week.
:05:22. > :05:35.This Crimea crisis has shown Western diplomacy to be firmly stuck in the
:05:36. > :05:42.20th Century. Talk of a new Cold War is deeply alarmist. And staggeringly
:05:43. > :05:47.outda.d Western politicians have demeaned themselves, posturing
:05:48. > :05:52.before each other and domestic elect traits. We have made threats to
:05:53. > :06:00.Russia we can't keep, completely mis-playing our hand. Now limited
:06:01. > :06:07.sanctions are already in place but our leaders want more, yet any
:06:08. > :06:12.further action will be deeply counter-productive Russia is the
:06:13. > :06:21.EU's third largest trading partner and Germany's biggest overall and
:06:22. > :06:27.war Cold War argy bargy and Crimean default could bring havoc to global
:06:28. > :06:33.markets. Now Western media reports invariably Dirks ss Russia. We are
:06:34. > :06:37.right, they are wrong. -- diss. When it comes to reporting rushia, a
:06:38. > :06:42.pretence of balance comes out of the window as we console ourselves that
:06:43. > :06:50.the Western world has the moral high ground and Vladimir Putin is nothing
:06:51. > :07:02.more but a power hungry despot who wants to kill us in our beds. Of
:07:03. > :07:07.course Russians in Crimea want closer ties with Moscow and of
:07:08. > :07:16.course many Russian speakers across Ukraine were alarmed at the ousting
:07:17. > :07:23.of a democratic elect elected President by thugs backed by the
:07:24. > :07:28.West. Did they cross the bored and invade Ukraine? Maybe or maybe not.
:07:29. > :07:34.I have yet to see clear invasion footage. This Crimea crisis has set
:07:35. > :07:39.back East/West relations and upended the broader diplomatic landscape.
:07:40. > :07:44.The US and EU are split. Germany's reemmerged as a major diplomatic
:07:45. > :07:49.player and Russia and China have moved closer together. We British in
:07:50. > :07:53.my view have been skril, dis disingenuous and shown a lack of
:07:54. > :08:00.understanding. The Cold War is over, guys, the Soviet June is no more.
:08:01. > :08:16.There is a new world order and Russia has a major role to play.
:08:17. > :08:29.And from the Marie Vann restaurant, Russia's biggest suburb, we are
:08:30. > :08:35.joined by Liam Halligan. Why do you have such a pro-rf Russian view?
:08:36. > :08:39.This guy is spectacularly popular in his own country with hay approval
:08:40. > :08:44.ratings. As far as Russians are concerned, the majority of them, he
:08:45. > :08:48.has turned the economy around and restored their national pride, taken
:08:49. > :08:53.on the oligarchs and taxed the oil and gas companies and given them
:08:54. > :08:58.back some self-respect. He is also rather nasty and authoritarian,
:08:59. > :09:01.isn't he? He controls the media. He runs a regime which discriminates
:09:02. > :09:05.against homosexuals and there is very little freedom there. I don't
:09:06. > :09:09.know how much time you have spent there in the last 20 years. I have
:09:10. > :09:14.been going there regularly. Hep doesn't control the media? I spent
:09:15. > :09:19.time living there. I went there in the early '90s. This was the more
:09:20. > :09:24.authoritarian society in the world within my lifetime, 25 years ago. If
:09:25. > :09:30.you compare it to what it was then to now, the progress is enormous.
:09:31. > :09:36.There is no major media outlet in the country, all of which is spewing
:09:37. > :09:39.out Ukrainian propaganda, that he doesn't control. That's not true.
:09:40. > :09:45.There are independent newspapers and television channels. He closed down
:09:46. > :09:49.the last two and put his people into them You can walk along the banks of
:09:50. > :09:53.the river and stand on a soapbox and say what you like. Of course it is
:09:54. > :09:58.not as purelistic as many Western countries but 25 years ago it was a
:09:59. > :10:03.totalitarian dictator sh. What sted direction of travel? The direction
:10:04. > :10:08.of travel is almost entirely to the good. Is there any doubt in your
:10:09. > :10:13.mind that he effectively annexed Crimea? There are two sides to the
:10:14. > :10:19.story. On the one hand, if Crimea will become part of Russia and it is
:10:20. > :10:23.not finalised that will happen, that thereby a transgression of
:10:24. > :10:27.international law. Noerned in the UN charter there is the right to
:10:28. > :10:31.self-determine nailing which the Crimean people have expressed. The
:10:32. > :10:36.Russians would say the current Ukrainian Government is illegitimate
:10:37. > :10:44.and almost any objective commentator would agree. Viktor Yanukovych
:10:45. > :10:50.wasn't popular. Well he was a cleptocrat. But you know, a report
:10:51. > :10:56.said of his election that it was fair "it was pluralistic, it was a
:10:57. > :11:00.good example of democracy." We have now backed a situation where the
:11:01. > :11:04.Ukrainian people weren't allowed to un-elect that guy. That's the irony.
:11:05. > :11:09.Next year they would have un-elected him. We stopped that happening. We
:11:10. > :11:16.stopped that happening. Are you proud of that Westerner? A democrat,
:11:17. > :11:21.somebody who is interested in plurality. I don't think my pride is
:11:22. > :11:25.at issue. You are defending a situation where we removed a
:11:26. > :11:29.democratically elected politician. The Ukrainian people did T With
:11:30. > :11:34.Western endorsement and Western backing and Western leaders standing
:11:35. > :11:37.with mega phones in central Kiev, screaming the odds. Are you in any
:11:38. > :11:45.doubt that once he did become leader, he filled his boots, with
:11:46. > :11:50.Russian support, that he is a cleptocrat? Correct? Russia,
:11:51. > :11:54.Ukraine, many parts - many emerging markets and parts of the developing
:11:55. > :11:59.world there are grubby fussings of money and politics. We are fwha sent
:12:00. > :12:04.capitalist societies like we were at the end of the 19th century. But
:12:05. > :12:10.these guys are trying to adopt democracy. These things take time.
:12:11. > :12:15.But are we right to up-end the path of Ukrainian democracy by
:12:16. > :12:19.effectively intervening to stop a politician who had become unpopular
:12:20. > :12:25.from being democratically un-elected, as he was democratically
:12:26. > :12:28.elected? I have major concerns as a British person that we are involved
:12:29. > :12:33.in a situation that stopped that natural progression of Ukrainian
:12:34. > :12:36.democracy from happening. I think the extent of our involvement is
:12:37. > :12:41.highly limited. But let me come to you, Liam finished his piece by
:12:42. > :12:46.saying Russia is a formidable power and the West cannot afford not to
:12:47. > :12:49.respect it. It is a player on the international stage. Two weeks ago
:12:50. > :12:54.you said as a country it was breaking up and going down the pan.
:12:55. > :12:58.I don't know if those were my exact words but it was the direction of
:12:59. > :13:03.travel. I agree with a great deal of what Liam said. He Saud the Russian
:13:04. > :13:07.people expect him for restoring the Russian economy. I think it is
:13:08. > :13:12.illusionary. It is dependent on oil, a variable price economy. The rouble
:13:13. > :13:16.has sunk very badly during this crisis. I think the Russian economy
:13:17. > :13:19.is delicate. I think the state of the peoples of the Russian
:13:20. > :13:23.Federation is delicate. I think they face a major Islamist and terrorist
:13:24. > :13:29.threat. I think they are desperate it maintain the balance of Slavs and
:13:30. > :13:38.Muslims within the Russian Federation. So I say all of those
:13:39. > :13:43.things. Let me get Liam to reply. He is busting to get N on you go. I
:13:44. > :13:49.have spent most of my adult life studying the Russian economy from
:13:50. > :13:53.literally the early '90s onward. In 2003, the Russian economy was 40%
:13:54. > :13:58.oil and gas. It is now 15% oil and goes. Less than Norway. Yes, of
:13:59. > :14:01.course it is a hydrocarbon superpower but Russia's service
:14:02. > :14:05.sector is three times bigger than its oil and gas sector much it is a
:14:06. > :14:11.myth to say this is entirely a petro economy. It's diversifying
:14:12. > :14:15.incredibly quickly, as any decent merelying market investor will tell
:14:16. > :14:19.you. It is not true to say -- emerging market. It is not true to
:14:20. > :14:22.say the population is declining. Everyone says that all the time.
:14:23. > :14:26.Russia now has a birth rate higher than the EU average and the decline
:14:27. > :14:31.in population they saw was far less than almost any other East European
:14:32. > :14:34.country. We believe what we want to believe because we have a Cold War
:14:35. > :14:38.mentality, that we have to hammer these guys and beat them into the
:14:39. > :14:42.ground. It is not right. We should be trading with these guys and
:14:43. > :14:46.treating them as partners. I need to bring in Diane. One way to get your
:14:47. > :14:49.population to increase is to annex everybody around you.
:14:50. > :14:56.They are now talking, Diane, about tougher sanctions. Is this the right
:14:57. > :14:59.way forward or not? The EU will not go for serious
:15:00. > :15:04.economic sanctions because Germany is Russia's biggest trading partner.
:15:05. > :15:09.There is a view in the House of Commons, not just people - That
:15:10. > :15:14.Russia isn't Germany's biggest trading partner. It's not? Yes, but
:15:15. > :15:20.- It's the biggest single trading partner. The EU. Germany, Russia is
:15:21. > :15:26.Germany's 11th biggest export market. 11th. My point is a
:15:27. > :15:31.parliamentary point. Combined imports and exports. You are wrong.
:15:32. > :15:35.My point is a parliamentary point. Increasingly MPs on the right of the
:15:36. > :15:41.Tory party, not so in my own party, are wondering why we are get ing
:15:42. > :15:45.drawn into this - We shouldn't do anything? We can't follow-through.
:15:46. > :15:48.Asking you. We should don't anything, that is the conclusion by
:15:49. > :15:53.what you say? There is a feeling the EU may have mishandled it in the
:15:54. > :15:58.first place. Sglie understand that, what is the Diane Abbott policy
:15:59. > :16:03.against Russia? I'm backbench, I don't have a policy. You splus a
:16:04. > :16:09.view. You arified have a view, that is why you are on here? There may be
:16:10. > :16:16.token travel travel sanctions we could impose. Would you do? Nothing?
:16:17. > :16:22.My view is, that there may be token travel and Visa sanctions - You,
:16:23. > :16:28.what would you do, you won't tell me? I told you what I would do.
:16:29. > :16:33.Snowing There are token sanctions - You would go along with those? Token
:16:34. > :16:37.sanctions. When it comes to serious trade sanctions they are not going
:16:38. > :16:43.to happen. Are talking sanctions? We have to express our dissprees sure.
:16:44. > :16:49.Were gog say something, Michael? When I was Defence Secretary, quite
:16:50. > :16:56.a long time ago - True it is. Let me finish the point. We were extending
:16:57. > :17:01.- On the defensive. Defending NATO and the European Union, we were
:17:02. > :17:05.cautious not to include Ukraine in that expansion. We thought it was
:17:06. > :17:08.completely unrealistic to take Ukraine into NATO or the European
:17:09. > :17:13.Union. We have recognised it would be massive provocation to the
:17:14. > :17:17.Russians. Somehow, that sensible approach has been lost over the
:17:18. > :17:22.years. That actually we arrived in a situation where we were offering
:17:23. > :17:27.you, you know, the prospect of EU membership, even NATO membership to
:17:28. > :17:32.Ukraine, which has a strong effect in destabilising the country and
:17:33. > :17:35.antagonised Putin. It's extraordinary how we failed to
:17:36. > :17:42.predict what the Russian's next move wouldwould be. Will Mr Putin do
:17:43. > :17:47.next? I think he will try to de-escalate the situation. I think,
:17:48. > :17:51.you know, the probability is that Ukraine - Crimea will become part of
:17:52. > :17:56.Russia. That's a done deal? No, Andrew, really you are not right.
:17:57. > :18:03.It's not a done deal. Did he say Andrew is not right? Crimea is not
:18:04. > :18:06.part of Russia? There is enabling legislation to allow it to happen.
:18:07. > :18:12.It still hasn't happened. I bet you ?1,000 it happens? OK. Will you take
:18:13. > :18:16.that bet on? I won't bet live on television. The probability is that
:18:17. > :18:22.will happen. What does he do next? Many ways to skin a cat. There maybe
:18:23. > :18:27.negotiation where Crimea becomes a protect rate. People in Crimea in no
:18:28. > :18:34.in terms want to be part of Russia. That was whants I asked? It's a
:18:35. > :18:40.defensive lobbies wet dream - Does he go for east Ukraine? I'm getting
:18:41. > :18:44.there. It's a defence lobbiest wet dream he wants - He will not attempt
:18:45. > :18:50.to take control of east Ukraine? I would be astonished if he did that.
:18:51. > :18:55.As the Russians know, it's Ukraine's destiny to be a bilingual nation to
:18:56. > :18:58.be a buffer between the west European world and the Slovak world.
:18:59. > :19:02.Ukraine doesn't want to be part of NATO. There has never been an
:19:03. > :19:06.opinion poll. You said it won't happen. We have it on tape. Events
:19:07. > :19:15.will see if you are right or wrong. Thank you very much. Thank you. Now,
:19:16. > :19:18.it's late - and you're probably feeling sleepier than Eric Pickles
:19:19. > :19:22.during a Boy George budget speech - but don't tidy up those Blue Nun
:19:23. > :19:25.empties just yet because waiting in our frost-bitten wings - enduring
:19:26. > :19:28.the most unadventurous adventure of his entire life - Ranulph Fiennes is
:19:29. > :19:35.here to explore why people don't take greater risks in life and
:19:36. > :19:39.politics. And, if your idea of danger is moaning on the internet
:19:40. > :19:42.about how much of your licence fee is spent on this nonsense, you'll be
:19:43. > :19:45.in equally edgy company on the Twitter, the Fleecbook and the
:19:46. > :19:49.Interweb. Now, we're not ones to blow our own trumpet. In fact, we
:19:50. > :19:54.celebrate modesty and mediocrity! As you can see! As you can see, Liam.
:19:55. > :19:58.So we were delighted this week to hear a senior politician admit that
:19:59. > :20:01.he didn't have the star quality to be Prime Minister! Yes, Michael Gove
:20:02. > :20:05.summoned up all his false modesty to say he was perfectly happy being a
:20:06. > :20:08.lowly sidekick, the Dr Watson to David Cameron's Sherlock Holmes. So
:20:09. > :20:10.we asked our own man lacking ambition, the Mirror's Kevin
:20:11. > :20:16.Maguire, for his Budget roundup of the week. His very low budget
:20:17. > :20:17.roundup. Yes, when it comes to modesty and mediocrity, nobody does
:20:18. > :20:33.it better than us. It was Monday and I was on my way to
:20:34. > :20:38.221b Downing Street to call upon my good friend, Mr George Osborne, a
:20:39. > :20:43.genius, a man possessed of almost superhuman powers of deduction.
:20:44. > :20:54.Wait, don't tell me my good man, from the dust on your shoe, the bags
:20:55. > :20:58.under your eye and the flem in on your shoulder you are an over tired
:20:59. > :21:07.parent struggling to get by on ?149,000 a year and desperate for my
:21:08. > :21:13.help. But, George, it's me, Dr Gove your best friend. Mr Osborne, like
:21:14. > :21:18.his older brother, Dave, has a star quality I can't match. Sometimes I'm
:21:19. > :21:25.so tongue-tied with awe that everything comes out wrong. There
:21:26. > :21:32.are a ridiculous number of Old Etonians in the Cabinet? I read that
:21:33. > :21:36.interview. What Michael Gove is talking about what he is passionate
:21:37. > :21:46.about, improving the education of this country. Public school charm.
:21:47. > :21:55.It didn't save me though. I found my friend in pencive mood. A humour
:21:56. > :22:00.reached him of a fresh plot from Johnson and his groanies. It's
:22:01. > :22:07.ridiculous that the only pool where the Tories fish in is in fact the
:22:08. > :22:11.very limited pool of current MPs in the House of Commons, are there not
:22:12. > :22:17.other possible candidates? A humble plotter such as I had no idea what
:22:18. > :22:23.on earth he was about. My friend's brilliant mind was working overtime.
:22:24. > :22:28.Gove, I need help to solve a devil of a mystery by Thursday. I neat to
:22:29. > :22:33.thwart my enemies. I want to appear as if auto I'm giving billions of
:22:34. > :22:38.pounds to everyone without spending a penny. I came up with a plan to
:22:39. > :22:43.help downtrodden couples scraping by on under ?300,000 a year. 's a nanny
:22:44. > :22:47.subsidy. This is simple. Everyone can go on to the Government's
:22:48. > :22:50.website, create an account, put more of their money, in grandparents can
:22:51. > :22:55.put money in. Take the money out when you need. For every 80p you
:22:56. > :23:00.spend, the Government will spend 20p. Was beyond me. I buried my head
:23:01. > :23:04.in that morning's edition of the Illustrated London News. It appeared
:23:05. > :23:11.that the Tzar was up to his tricks again. No amount of sham and
:23:12. > :23:14.perverse democratic process, or secured historical reference cans
:23:15. > :23:19.make up for the fact that this is an incursion into a sovereign state and
:23:20. > :23:26.a land grab of part of its territory with no respect for the law of that
:23:27. > :23:29.country or for international law. My friend's brilliant mind was on other
:23:30. > :23:33.matters. I have a marvellous idea. We need to cut taxes to show we
:23:34. > :23:38.care, but although the economy is growing, we haven't got any pounds
:23:39. > :23:44.to spend. Why don't we just cut a bit off the pound coin, sir? Gove,
:23:45. > :23:48.that is a wonderful idea, get out there and find me more headline
:23:49. > :24:00.grabbing ideas by Wednesday and meet me in Westminster.
:24:01. > :24:08.This is a Budget for building a resilient economy. If you are a
:24:09. > :24:14.maker, a doer or a saver, this Budget is for you. It is all part of
:24:15. > :24:18.a long-term economic plan. A plan that is to delivering security for
:24:19. > :24:21.the people of this country. Pensioners will have complete
:24:22. > :24:26.freedom to draw down as much or as little of their pension pot as they
:24:27. > :24:33.want, any time they want, no cap, no drawn down limits, let me be clear,
:24:34. > :24:39.no-one will have to buy annuity. He came out all guns blazing and fought
:24:40. > :24:43.the good fight on class war. Shame he forgot about the Budget. It
:24:44. > :24:50.doesn't mat fer the pound is square, round or oval if you are ?1,600 a
:24:51. > :24:54.year worse off you are still ?1,600 worse off. Chap can be rude
:24:55. > :25:03.sometimes. Wrfrjts is the Education Secretary? He has been banished...
:25:04. > :25:06.He is hiding. He is hiding! The Education Secretary has been
:25:07. > :25:13.hiding... I think Mr Deputy spaeshg he has been con signed to the
:25:14. > :25:25.naughty step by the Prime Minister. -- speaker. It appeared that the
:25:26. > :25:34.Napoleon of politics Johnson was up to his tricks again. You were always
:25:35. > :25:47.like this. Behave. It's not your turn for the champagne. It's my
:25:48. > :25:52.party, I will have my way. Ahhh! Don't worry, it's all an illusion,
:25:53. > :26:04.islanded on my annuities. Boris, you can't kill me off that easily!
:26:05. > :26:11.Michael, Osborne's pension reform, good policy and good politics? Yes.
:26:12. > :26:16.I think good justice as well. This annuity problem I think was a major
:26:17. > :26:21.injustice. Even though people are assisted to save for their pension
:26:22. > :26:25.by tax relief, the control that the state took over, the money they had
:26:26. > :26:31.put aside, was such that they were not allowed to draw more than a
:26:32. > :26:35.small part of that. Then, at a certain age, had to take an annuity.
:26:36. > :26:39.Where interest rates the annuity they were given was daylight
:26:40. > :26:43.robbery. If you had arrived from Mars and looked at this situation,
:26:44. > :26:48.would you have concluded it was deeply unjust. What... For many
:26:49. > :26:53.years people considered how we could get away from the requirement to
:26:54. > :26:57.have annuities. I don't remember anyone suggesting to set people free
:26:58. > :27:01.to do what they want with their lump sum. I think it is a a good thing.
:27:02. > :27:05.What many people retired will do is find other investment vehicles. Look
:27:06. > :27:11.for shares and bonds and property to put that money into. Labour doesn't
:27:12. > :27:17.seem yet to know exactly how to respond to this reform, what would
:27:18. > :27:22.you advise? Well, really our problem is that we have to think through
:27:23. > :27:28.what our economic offer is. Are we going to do the same sorts of cuts
:27:29. > :27:33.that Osborne is doing only with some slight variants... On pension
:27:34. > :27:38.reform? Oh, on the pension reform. Given that Osborne doesn't have any
:27:39. > :27:45.new money to spend, to be fair to him, it's quite ingenius, it will be
:27:46. > :27:50.popular with retire es they will will have all this money. Treasury
:27:51. > :27:55.will get a bigger tax cut. They will be spending money. And so on. More
:27:56. > :27:59.people may be encouraged to save for pensions. That may be. Politically,
:28:00. > :28:04.Osborne, whatever you say about him, he is looking good nowadays on the
:28:05. > :28:15.5: 2 diet. Whatever you say about him, it's very political. This is
:28:16. > :28:20.above all a burning arrow designed to hit the heart of UKIP. That's the
:28:21. > :28:24.political motivation? It is the political motivation. Remember also
:28:25. > :28:28.he has given this analysis of a recovery which is the wrong
:28:29. > :28:32.recovery. One of the ways in which it's the wrong recovery we continue,
:28:33. > :28:36.we have low interest rates, to encourage people to borrow and
:28:37. > :28:39.discourage people to save. Although he can't yet change the low interest
:28:40. > :28:44.investment, this is quite an important move towards encouraging a
:28:45. > :28:50.bit of saving. Miranda, you can see what is in it for the Tories, what
:28:51. > :28:56.is it it for the Lib Dems, the pension reform Steve Webb the
:28:57. > :29:03.pension minister a Lib Dem and the expert on pensions. He made it his
:29:04. > :29:10.life's study. On the policy. Itself. What is in the politics for the Lib
:29:11. > :29:15.Dems It's quite broad actually. Fundamentally, we have spent weeks
:29:16. > :29:19.on the sofa discussing which coalition rows are genuine division,
:29:20. > :29:25.which are play fights, all of that, actually, what the Budget has shown
:29:26. > :29:30.is reports of the coalition together is somewhat exaggerated - There is
:29:31. > :29:34.life in it yet. They presented a united front. Clear Lib Dem wins
:29:35. > :29:39.they could tick off. More than that, they are part of a governing project
:29:40. > :29:44.which showed this week it has a lot to say and a lot to do. That doesn't
:29:45. > :29:47.just make UKIP look imhe tent, it makes the Labour Party look
:29:48. > :29:53.impotent. That is very helpful for the Lib Dems indeed. That depends on
:29:54. > :29:57.whether the electorate is comforted by Osborne's little bunny rabbits.
:29:58. > :30:02.They are little bunny rabbits. The pension stuff is the biggest issue.
:30:03. > :30:07.Depends whether the Government is comforted by that - the electorate.
:30:08. > :30:10.Or whether they reflect. What we are seeing is correct, it's actually
:30:11. > :30:13.correct their living standards are going down and will continue to go
:30:14. > :30:17.down. Whether - They won't continue to go down. The OBR forecast show
:30:18. > :30:29.that is wages will start to overtake prices in the summer? Well, yes. But
:30:30. > :30:35.whether the living standards argument trump the macroeconomics.
:30:36. > :30:39.They wouldn't be as high in 2014 as they were in 2014. The argument will
:30:40. > :30:44.be on the one hand that clear average wages will not have
:30:45. > :30:48.recovered by 2015 to their previous level. That's the point Labour will
:30:49. > :30:51.make. The Tories riposte will be - we are moving in the right
:30:52. > :30:57.direction. It is which argument wins. It is the question -- are you
:30:58. > :31:01.better off than you were five years ago? Talking about it as a project,
:31:02. > :31:05.the coalition government, the thing that impressed me, the borrowing
:31:06. > :31:09.figure has halved in the sincing the beginning of the Government. It is
:31:10. > :31:16.projected we will move into surplus. It hasn't happened. Down to 6. 6.
:31:17. > :31:21.Borrowing, Labour left a deficit of ?166 billion. This financial year,
:31:22. > :31:26.108. Was it not 13s? This is now 6. 6. The Government is using
:31:27. > :31:30.percentage of GDP. And we are going to get to a surplus by 2018 if
:31:31. > :31:35.things continue on their present path. In other words, the public
:31:36. > :31:39.finances are transformed once you get growth back into the situation.
:31:40. > :31:45.But it is growth based on a housing bubble in London. You have not cut
:31:46. > :31:51.the deficit as quickly as Osborne promised in 2010. Of course it is
:31:52. > :31:54.the case. It is the case. I I think it is transformational. One of the
:31:55. > :31:58.best-kept secrets is all the time we are ranting about the Italians and
:31:59. > :32:01.Greeks and casualties of the eurozone, we were running the
:32:02. > :32:05.largest deficit of the European Union. Michael is right on that,
:32:06. > :32:08.shouldn't the Liberal Democrats then be putting more effort into taking
:32:09. > :32:11.credit for things that they think really coming right, rather than all
:32:12. > :32:17.the effort they are putting in now to distance themselves from the
:32:18. > :32:21.Tories? In my personal view, yes. She is very sound on this. The
:32:22. > :32:25.problem is, I think, that all parties are suffering from a similar
:32:26. > :32:29.thing at the moment, which is, it is the quite short run-up to the
:32:30. > :32:32.election now and a couple of elections in the way of even the
:32:33. > :32:36.general election and there was a rush of polling data to the head.
:32:37. > :32:40.And that has made them think in a much too narrow way about picking
:32:41. > :32:46.off their own groups of voters, rather than a broader pitch and
:32:47. > :32:49.broader appeal. Myself, I think the Liberal Democrats' only hope at the
:32:50. > :32:52.next election is a broad appeal to - you finally gave us a chance at
:32:53. > :32:57.Government, look we are quite good at T it has to be the central
:32:58. > :33:01.message. I have -- at it. I have come from addressing a public event.
:33:02. > :33:05.Somebody described the Tories to me as extremists. I put my head in my
:33:06. > :33:08.hands. If that is the way the Tories are regarded at the moment. That way
:33:09. > :33:12.lies death. David Cameron always knew the only place the Tories could
:33:13. > :33:17.win the election was on the centre-ground. And, he needs to get
:33:18. > :33:21.back with the can he alies, stressing it is a centrist
:33:22. > :33:25.government that has done centrist things and produced sensible results
:33:26. > :33:30.rather than banging on about the EU and immigration which makes people
:33:31. > :33:34.believe it is extremists. But the backbenchers... Had They don't let
:33:35. > :33:41.him. That's why the coalition is his salvation. The fact he has 60
:33:42. > :33:47.merchandise backing him, he isn't held hostage by 40 Tory MPs. There
:33:48. > :33:53.are more than 40 Tory MPs who would love him to bang on about
:33:54. > :34:01.immigration in Europe. Do you see George Osborne as a Tory leader?
:34:02. > :34:05.Snool oh, yes. Because you hate Boris Johnson. It could be a
:34:06. > :34:09.contributory factor. Before the last election, I was thinking of George
:34:10. > :34:15.beforedom. Such is my respect for him. I could see him as a leader. He
:34:16. > :34:19.has a few rough edges, a few presentational difficulties but, no,
:34:20. > :34:27.he is absolute leadership quality. Thank you. I like the smirk in your
:34:28. > :34:31.face there. Now, Noel Edmonds trying to buy the
:34:32. > :34:34.BBC, Bez from the Happy Mondays standing as an MP in Salford, Diane
:34:35. > :34:38.Abbott's London mayoral ambitions - yes, lost causes come in many shapes
:34:39. > :34:42.and sizes but just because we're all doomed to failure doesn't mean we
:34:43. > :34:50.shouldn't give it a go. Install a bank of telephone lines and hope for
:34:51. > :34:53.the best. But is politics now increasingly risk averse and could
:34:54. > :34:56.politicians learn something from a man willing to saw off his own
:34:57. > :34:59.fingertips with a blunt fretsaw? Quite possibly. And that's why we've
:35:00. > :35:09.decided to put "adventure" in this week's Spotlight.
:35:10. > :35:19.# Take time to see the wonders of the world... #
:35:20. > :35:27.# If you show weakness to Antarctica, I think it knows T Are
:35:28. > :35:33.such dangerous expeditions just for Princes or should we be more
:35:34. > :35:41.adventurous. Ranulph Fiennes probably thinks so.
:35:42. > :35:44.French ministers introduced an adventurous antipollution policy
:35:45. > :35:49.this week with cars in Paris only allowed to drive depending on
:35:50. > :35:53.whether their numberplate was odd or even.
:35:54. > :35:57.Plus, new head of HS2 believes we should be far more ambition and
:35:58. > :36:03.build further and faster in the face of protests and prevarication.
:36:04. > :36:07.And back in Westminster, pension annuity reform may not sound
:36:08. > :36:12.adventurous, but could this policy proved to be Osborne's Everest? So,
:36:13. > :36:16.are politicians too often too timid when it comes to pushing the
:36:17. > :36:20.boundaries of policy? Maybe we could all learn a thing or two about
:36:21. > :36:23.putting safety last, rather than always putting safety first. Who
:36:24. > :36:40.dares wins. We dare. We will win. Sadly, I was there live and remember
:36:41. > :36:44.that carcrash as it happened. Ranulph Fiennes joins us now.
:36:45. > :36:47.Welcome to the programme. Having a sense of adventure, do you think it
:36:48. > :36:52.is a good thing? It depends who you are. If you want to live up to your
:36:53. > :36:55.adventurous dreams, and sometimes you can't, so you don't want to get
:36:56. > :37:00.above yourself. Are you born with it? Or is it installed or instilled
:37:01. > :37:05.in you? That's a big question which a lot of people are argued. I think
:37:06. > :37:11.it is a bit of both, definitely. If you have a strong sense of
:37:12. > :37:14.adventure, you must have a robust nature to deal with things - things
:37:15. > :37:18.are often more likely to go wrong if you have a sense of adventure, if
:37:19. > :37:24.you take risk. Yes, but we are in it for the competition. The Norwegians
:37:25. > :37:30.think they own the polar regions and for 40 years now, we know who they
:37:31. > :37:34.are and we need to break the remaining polar records, before they
:37:35. > :37:39.do. If it is risky, you are more likely to be stopped in not breaking
:37:40. > :37:44.that particular record. You want to go around risks not at them. But you
:37:45. > :37:49.have to be unafraid of failure, I would think, to be a proper
:37:50. > :37:53.adventurer? It is aed about thing, we depend on sponsors. They don't
:37:54. > :37:57.like failure. -- it is a bad thing. Do you think our politicians are
:37:58. > :38:01.lacking in adventure because adventure exposes you to more
:38:02. > :38:07.failure? There is a greater risk of it? And they hate that. I would want
:38:08. > :38:12.to be a politician. They are dealing with risky people. We are just
:38:13. > :38:16.dealing with nature. Nature is not wiley and duplicitous like people
:38:17. > :38:20.and politicians - well, I will not be rude about politicians. I think
:38:21. > :38:26.you were. I take it back. Do not. Leave it on the table. Is nature
:38:27. > :38:29.really not duplicitous when the weather turns against you, for
:38:30. > :38:35.example? Yes, but unless you have some sort of bad weather, Mr Fisher,
:38:36. > :38:39.whatever, you reckon on bad weather. You plan pessimistically and
:38:40. > :38:45.sometimes we plan seven years ahead. We did the first ever journey around
:38:46. > :38:51.Earth vertically. It has never been repeated. It took three years,
:38:52. > :38:57.50,000 miles, without flying one mile. Never been repeated. We
:38:58. > :39:01.plannedp seven years. Everything was pose mustic planning. I would think
:39:02. > :39:07.for a Government, the same thing is best. -- pest misically. Our
:39:08. > :39:11.politicians, are they adventurous today or risk averse? I think in
:39:12. > :39:20.general they are probably risk averse. However, as ran you have has
:39:21. > :39:28.just said, it is important to assess your risks. -- Ranulf. I was struck
:39:29. > :39:32.by what you were talking about, not going through a problem, going
:39:33. > :39:36.around T Margaret Thatcher, it was striking although she new her origin
:39:37. > :39:40.and destination, the route between the two was very often a did I zag
:39:41. > :39:50.to get around problems. The important thing was to end know
:39:51. > :39:55.where you were ending up -- zig zag. The Successful politicians are the
:39:56. > :40:01.one who take risk. David Miliband could have stood against Tony Blair,
:40:02. > :40:04.and then saw his brother pip him. David Cameron took a risk for the
:40:05. > :40:09.Tory leadership when he was relatively young. And behind at the
:40:10. > :40:11.time. And behind. So I think successful politicians, as
:40:12. > :40:18.individuals have to be prepared to take a risk. A successful adventurer
:40:19. > :40:22.does know the risks, otherwise you are not so much an adventurer, as
:40:23. > :40:26.fool hardy. You have to anticipate what will go wrong and what the
:40:27. > :40:30.dangers will be? We do. But we have the end result which is - we are
:40:31. > :40:37.going to break the world record. We are going to get the first winter
:40:38. > :40:42.journey, shall we say to the Pole. Our reward is when we plant our flag
:40:43. > :40:46.there. It is not the English flag, it is the Union Jack. The worst
:40:47. > :40:52.thing for us would be if our brothers, the Scots, leave us. That
:40:53. > :40:57.would be dreadful. Have you embarked on an adventure when you then, as it
:40:58. > :41:01.has gone on, thought - I wish I had never started out on this, this is
:41:02. > :41:05.crazy. Yes, and that's not good because your sponsor has been told
:41:06. > :41:09.you are going to succeed. You cannot immediately accept the failure. You
:41:10. > :41:16.have to find a way around it. What was - what was that? What adventure
:41:17. > :41:23.were you on? Well, we were trying to find the Lost city Aruba for 26
:41:24. > :41:27.years. Four-wheel drive into the great dessert and having found a
:41:28. > :41:31.pillar in the middle of the sand but on the last day before the hot
:41:32. > :41:38.season we knew we would come back and BP would sponsor it and find the
:41:39. > :41:40.next year and only then discovered German archaeologists had put it
:41:41. > :41:45.there. We were on a hiding for nothing and when we came back NASA
:41:46. > :41:50.had started looking for it using the Apollo and all the rest of it. We
:41:51. > :41:54.found it through sheer good luck, not NASA or the German
:41:55. > :42:00.archaeologists. Every now and again you need luck. I would have thought
:42:01. > :42:06.in your business, you need look. Even politicians need luck. Sounds
:42:07. > :42:12.like you came across duplicity? German duplicity. Do you think as a
:42:13. > :42:17.society we are Morrisk averse. Yes, I have had mums coming to see me to
:42:18. > :42:21.sue the school because their child fell off the climbing frame. I said
:42:22. > :42:24.- if you sue because of that, children will never be able to play
:42:25. > :42:30.again. They are not allowed to go in our
:42:31. > :42:34.divror Tesco, because a trolley might run the children over. It is
:42:35. > :42:37.funny what you think about when asked that question - I had gone to
:42:38. > :42:41.the other extreme - we are talking about a country which in the last
:42:42. > :42:45.few years has gone to war in Iraq, in Afghanistan and Libya. In some
:42:46. > :42:51.ways, our governments have been very risky in what they have done. They
:42:52. > :42:56.have indeed. There was no proper assessment in any of the risks
:42:57. > :43:01.involved. Yet on small things as Diane says we have become Morrisk
:43:02. > :43:06.averse. Just remind us of the story of what you had to do, you had got
:43:07. > :43:12.so much frost bite had taken, that you had to cut your fingers off? Not
:43:13. > :43:18.quite like that. That sounds pretty eccentric. Eccentric is not the
:43:19. > :43:22.word, sounds horriblement I had frost bite. The fingers had to come
:43:23. > :43:27.off. You are moving around with three inches of mummified red
:43:28. > :43:33.finger, but the surgeons won't cut it off for half months because the
:43:34. > :43:36.half dead bit will become the new flaps after amputation. That has to
:43:37. > :43:41.have five months to get better. Every time you touch something it
:43:42. > :43:46.hurts like hell. No wonder the ge stoop tow went for fingers. I was
:43:47. > :43:51.getting irritable. My wife said we must do something like that. I got a
:43:52. > :43:56.black and decker and fretsaw and Jenny brought me cups of tea. It
:43:57. > :44:02.took two days to do the thumb. I think that'll keep some people awake
:44:03. > :44:11.tonight. Wet' better leave it there. You asked the question. You
:44:12. > :44:15.answered. That's your lot for tonight folks - but not for us,
:44:16. > :44:17.because scientists equipped with an incredibly powerful telescope have
:44:18. > :44:19.discovered exciting evidence of a primordial gravitational wave -
:44:20. > :44:23.emanating from Michael Portillo's cha cha. So we're all off to Lou
:44:24. > :44:26.Lou's dance floor to confirm their findings. But after Pensions
:44:27. > :44:29.Minister Steve Webb today declared that he was perfectly relaxed about
:44:30. > :44:32.people frittering away their pension savings on hookers and Lamborghinis
:44:33. > :44:35.- I paraphrase only slightly - we leave you tonight with the latest
:44:36. > :44:37.prospectus from British Association of Pension Funds. Nighty night.
:44:38. > :44:42.Don't let the end-of-life crisis bite. Thb say I might as well face
:44:43. > :44:46.the truth # That I am just too long in the
:44:47. > :44:52.tooth # I started to deteriorate
:44:53. > :44:55.# And new I'm past by own sell-buy date
:44:56. > :44:58.# So I'm a wrinkley, Cinkly, set in my ways
:44:59. > :45:03.# It's true that my body has seen better days
:45:04. > :45:07.# But give me half a chance and I can still misbehave
:45:08. > :45:09.# One foot in the grave # One foot in the grave... #