:00:14. > :00:22.# Rise like a Phoenix. Tonight on This Week, as Austrian
:00:23. > :00:25.lady-man Conchita tops the Eurovision poll, we look to the
:00:26. > :00:27.other, slightly less popular, Euro and Scottish polls. Representing
:00:28. > :00:33.Scotland, the BBC's latest star, Sarah Smith. There are not any
:00:34. > :00:37.bearded ladies in Scotland, but David Cameron is paying a visit
:00:38. > :00:41.today to try to live up the European election campaign.
:00:42. > :00:44.And just like the UK's Eurovision vote, Michael Gove and the so-called
:00:45. > :00:49.education "blob" disagree over the benefits of free schools.
:00:50. > :00:59.Representing Educating Essex, the risque headmaster Mr Drew, who is
:01:00. > :01:08.clean shaven this evening. The headteacher jury gives free schools
:01:09. > :01:11.nil point. And controversy over a bearded drag
:01:12. > :01:15.queen winning Eurovision but not as much caused by Jeremy Clarkson and
:01:16. > :01:23.the local radio BBC DJ, over use of the N-word. Someone more used to the
:01:24. > :01:33.mean streets of Baltimore than the political stage, The Wire's Clarke
:01:34. > :01:39.Peters is our final contender. A bearded woman wins the Eurovision
:01:40. > :01:41.Song contest. I guess it's all in the game, Junior. It's all in the
:01:42. > :01:45.game. We'll try our very best and rise
:01:46. > :01:52.from the ashes of another edition of This Week.
:01:53. > :01:56.Evenin' all. Welcome to This Week, and the start of a 20-day - count
:01:57. > :02:00.'em - 20-day break for our overworked and under-performing
:02:01. > :02:03.parliamentarians. Yes, the Zombie Political Apocalypse is upon us, so
:02:04. > :02:06.watch out voters, the Westminster Walking Dead are converging on their
:02:07. > :02:19.constituencies as we speak, for some unearned respite from the
:02:20. > :02:22.legislative horror. Yet with almost 12 months still to go until the
:02:23. > :02:25.general election, the coalition are making sure they at least sound
:02:26. > :02:28.busy, busy telling anyone who'll listen that they haven't run out of
:02:29. > :02:36.substantial ideas or policy gimmicks. They have so many
:02:37. > :02:41.indignities to put up with. This week, Michael Gove had his lunch
:02:42. > :02:45.money, -- confiscated by Nick Clegg. He also had to ride out free school
:02:46. > :02:55.lunches are great and affordable 100 times. Speaking of reanimated
:02:56. > :02:59.corpses who feed off the brains of others, I'm joined on the sofa
:03:00. > :03:03.tonight by two sharp dressed men who every girl is crazy about. Think of
:03:04. > :03:06.them as the ZZ Top and the ZZ Bottom of late-night political chat. I
:03:07. > :03:09.speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "gimme all your lovin" Johnson,
:03:10. > :03:15.and #sadmanonatrain Michael "all your hugs and kisses too" Portillo.
:03:16. > :03:25.I think you can take off the disguises now. Your moment of the
:03:26. > :03:29.week? A personal one. I travelled last week between juristic them and
:03:30. > :03:35.Bethlehem, which requires you to go through the barrier erected by the
:03:36. > :03:40.Israelis. -- Joe Root Sylla them and Bethlehem.
:03:41. > :03:47.It is the first time I had seen the barrier, which is as tall as a
:03:48. > :03:51.house. I suppose it is hundreds of kilometres long because it goes all
:03:52. > :03:55.around the settlements. I don't want to make a cheap, anti-Israeli
:03:56. > :04:00.point, because since it was put up they have reduced the number of
:04:01. > :04:04.terrorist incidents dramatically, but it is just a human tragedy. It
:04:05. > :04:09.is terrible to see this wall between two sets of people. If you live the
:04:10. > :04:12.other side, if you are Palestinian, you obviously feel you are in prison
:04:13. > :04:17.because you are entirely dependent on what comes through the wall from
:04:18. > :04:20.Israel. If you are in need of work and you have to work in Israel, you
:04:21. > :04:24.are required to walk through the checkpoint, get in a bus and be
:04:25. > :04:33.taken to work and then be brought back in. I found it deeply shocking
:04:34. > :04:36.euphemism for it is a barrier, because they do not want to compare
:04:37. > :04:41.it to the Berlin wall, but it is a great big wall. I have been
:04:42. > :04:45.supporting a strike in the land Registry, which is an important part
:04:46. > :04:48.of our economy, and part of the civil service, which does an
:04:49. > :04:56.important function, a quasi judicial role. But essentially, government
:04:57. > :05:01.guarantee for who owns what in terms of land around the country. There
:05:02. > :05:05.was a consultation period a couple of months saying that the government
:05:06. > :05:09.wanted to change but that the status quo, remaining in the civil service,
:05:10. > :05:15.giving 100 million back to the Treasury last year, by the way, was
:05:16. > :05:19.an option. But a document leaked to the Guardian showed they had a ready
:05:20. > :05:25.made up their mind to privatise it. And that is what sparked industrial
:05:26. > :05:30.action, and I very much support it. It has not had much coverage. Which
:05:31. > :05:38.is one of the reasons I raise it. It has had very little coverage. It has
:05:39. > :05:40.now. Molly, your moment of the week? Really? I found that the most
:05:41. > :05:43.interesting. Now, whilst well behaved pupils
:05:44. > :05:45.spent the past week revising and sitting exams, the politicians
:05:46. > :05:48.responsible for their education spent the week scrapping behind the
:05:49. > :05:52.bike sheds, with Tory Education Secretary Michael Gove and his gang
:05:53. > :06:02.of advisors fighting with the Lib Dem gang over free schools and free
:06:03. > :06:05.school meals. We should not be surprised when they start arguing in
:06:06. > :06:07.public over who made what free. All the naughty boys denied any
:06:08. > :06:11.wrongdoing, claiming, "Please, sir, wasn't me, sir, he started it, sir".
:06:12. > :06:14.We thought some discipline was required and turned to Educating
:06:15. > :06:38.Essex star, headteacher Mr Drew. This is his take of the week.
:06:39. > :06:43.In school halls like this up and down the country young people have
:06:44. > :06:49.been taken exams this week. They work hard and take it seriously. At
:06:50. > :06:53.the same time, politicians have been squabbling about free schools and
:06:54. > :06:56.free school meals. They don't understand the damage they do.
:06:57. > :07:04.Perhaps they should learn the lesson from our young people. The
:07:05. > :07:09.government policy on free school meals from reception to year two
:07:10. > :07:13.children is a good example of what government should do, but they could
:07:14. > :07:16.not work out how to deliver it and it is causing problems. The parties
:07:17. > :07:20.are now happy to argue and fight over whose idea it was and how it
:07:21. > :07:32.should happen. They should reflect on what they are doing. For the
:07:33. > :07:36.Education Secretary and his advisers, if opening a free school
:07:37. > :07:41.causes disruption, so be it. They feel they are battling the blob of
:07:42. > :07:45.education. What is that? Teachers like me who believe in local
:07:46. > :07:50.accountability in a national system. Free schools can be set up, it
:07:51. > :07:55.seems, by anyone. Even if they have no idea about education they will be
:07:56. > :08:04.given money to set up a school and manage a system educating children.
:08:05. > :08:07.It just doesn't make sense. Unfortunately, anyone in education
:08:08. > :08:10.who is hoping that after the next election that if Tristram Hunt
:08:11. > :08:13.becomes Education Secretary the world will be different will be
:08:14. > :08:19.sadly disappointed. The art and seems to have one by Mr Goh vent --
:08:20. > :08:31.Tristram Hunt sounds more and more like a junior minister than someone
:08:32. > :08:36.from a different party. I like Michael Gove. I don't buy into what
:08:37. > :08:39.a lot of people say that he is fundamentally bad. I think he has
:08:40. > :08:43.done a lot of good things for the education system but I think the
:08:44. > :08:48.politicians at present delight in listening to think tanks, ignoring
:08:49. > :08:50.what education experts say an almost taking pleasure in doing things
:08:51. > :08:54.which fundamentally change everything that has gone on
:08:55. > :08:57.previously. I just think they don't understand the damage they do.
:08:58. > :09:01.And from the assembly hall at Brentwood County High School to our
:09:02. > :09:08.own little assembly hall here in the heart of Westminster, Mr Drew joins
:09:09. > :09:11.us now. Michael, let me come to you, is he right to be so critical of
:09:12. > :09:16.politicians when it comes to education? I thought Mr Drew was
:09:17. > :09:19.firing at the wrong target, because on the whole I don't think
:09:20. > :09:25.politicians disagree about education. Politicians of the three
:09:26. > :09:30.main parties disagree with the blob. And for the last 40 years,
:09:31. > :09:34.ministers, whether working for Tony Blair or for David Cameron, have
:09:35. > :09:38.been trying to bring what they would regard as some common sense, some
:09:39. > :09:43.aspiration and standards into the system, against certain
:09:44. > :09:48.educationalists who have social theories about what should go on in
:09:49. > :09:51.education. I don't think that the blob includes Mr Drew and I suspect
:09:52. > :09:56.it doesn't include a lot of teachers, but it does include some
:09:57. > :10:00.people in ivory towers who have been constructing education policy for
:10:01. > :10:04.the last five decades and have managed to sustain that construction
:10:05. > :10:08.of education policy in the face of what ministers, elected by the
:10:09. > :10:14.people, wanted to do. And Michael Gove is maybe the first person to
:10:15. > :10:19.begin to wrestle with that blob. You feel that he means the education
:10:20. > :10:22.establishment, union leaders, educationalists, some people in the
:10:23. > :10:28.Department for Education as well. You felt it referred to you. I would
:10:29. > :10:38.be proud to be part of what he calls the blob. I did my PGCE at the
:10:39. > :10:42.Institute of education in London, a world leading organisation in
:10:43. > :10:45.training of teachers. The Institute of education has been repeatedly
:10:46. > :10:48.denigrated by Mr Gove over the last few years to the point where they
:10:49. > :10:53.can't get funding to do things they want to do. We do read what these
:10:54. > :11:00.people write, and they do know what they're talking about. It feels like
:11:01. > :11:02.at this point in time, Michael referred to the fact that Michael
:11:03. > :11:05.Gove has been able to do things ministers have wanted to do
:11:06. > :11:09.four-year is, but it feels like what he is doing is what may be
:11:10. > :11:14.politicians of his ilk have wanted to do for a long time, take on what
:11:15. > :11:19.they see as a vested interest. But I think they missed the point
:11:20. > :11:22.completely, because it feels as if people are experts in education,
:11:23. > :11:27.because we say things Michael Gove does not like, we are without value
:11:28. > :11:30.and have no interest at all. I think you can be somebody who wants
:11:31. > :11:35.incredibly high standards, the very best for children, and still be a
:11:36. > :11:42.believer in education theory and promotion of ideas. It is not just
:11:43. > :11:45.Mr Gove who has faced resistance to his changes. The last Labour
:11:46. > :11:50.government under Mr Blair faced a lot of resistance from the
:11:51. > :11:57.educational establishment. I was Education Secretary and I remember
:11:58. > :12:03.it. I think Mr Drew's piece showed that actually what Michael Gove is
:12:04. > :12:07.doing is turning the whole of the educational establishment against
:12:08. > :12:11.him. There is a lot of truth to what Michael Portillo says about having
:12:12. > :12:15.to fight for academies, having to open up schools which were closed
:12:16. > :12:21.institutions. Ken Baker started that process and we carried on and turned
:12:22. > :12:24.around many bad results. It isn't that bit of the educational
:12:25. > :12:28.establishment Michael Gove is upsetting, it is the whole range of
:12:29. > :12:32.teachers. I am amazed how many enemies he has made, and he has made
:12:33. > :12:36.them because it seems to them to just be a heads down ideological
:12:37. > :12:43.experiment with no proof that it is working. Academies, and spreading
:12:44. > :12:48.academies, concentrating on raising standards, that is all stuff that we
:12:49. > :12:52.should be doing. But the free school experiment, copied from Sweden, and
:12:53. > :12:56.he was full of himself in opposition saying this Swedish experiment was
:12:57. > :13:00.working, well, it is not working in Sweden now and there is a lot of
:13:01. > :13:06.evidence that it is not working here. You are turning into an
:13:07. > :13:12.academy. There is no choice. If you could choose you would not do it?
:13:13. > :13:15.Absolutely not. The government have created an environment in which you
:13:16. > :13:20.either turn into an academy or you will not get any money. We convert
:13:21. > :13:30.on the 1st of June, and suddenly we can start bidding for access to
:13:31. > :13:33.funding that the DfEE sits on. Alan referred to the thing regarding
:13:34. > :13:37.results and improvements. Under the Labour government schools were told
:13:38. > :13:40.that results were going up and up, but unfortunately it feels to
:13:41. > :13:44.teachers as if the moment the new coalition government comes in, that
:13:45. > :13:48.idea of improved standards is not the mantra that they want, so they
:13:49. > :13:53.have to talk about invented grade inflation, doing down the work that
:13:54. > :13:58.we have done. There is a lot of evidence to suggest it is invented.
:13:59. > :14:02.I would suggest it is one of the biggest lies of the last few years.
:14:03. > :14:08.Why can't it be true that teachers have got better, worked harder with
:14:09. > :14:11.children, that children work harder? Because we can compare the questions
:14:12. > :14:19.of 20 years ago to the papers of today. By doing that, you missed the
:14:20. > :14:22.point about how exams work. Exams work on a factual basis
:14:23. > :14:27.historically, so the questions look cleverer. Questions in exams in more
:14:28. > :14:33.recent times are more about the open-minded thinking process. I
:14:34. > :14:38.completely dispute that. When I did exams 40 years ago they were not
:14:39. > :14:41.just fact -based. They were all about imagination, interpretation,
:14:42. > :14:45.applying intelligence. That a complete invention that these things
:14:46. > :14:53.were not in the curriculum 40 years ago. You weren't around... I was 40
:14:54. > :14:58.years ago. There are lots of attempts going on by teachers to be
:14:59. > :15:01.positive. The Headteachers round table work together and promote
:15:02. > :15:05.ideas into government, coming up with curricular models that allow
:15:06. > :15:11.everyone to do things. These groups of teachers get ignored, dismissed.
:15:12. > :15:15.How come more and more top jobs in our country are going to public
:15:16. > :15:19.schoolboys? That is a whole other argue up about the problems of
:15:20. > :15:22.breaking into some professions and some of the professions that were -
:15:23. > :15:28.It was happening. It is stepping back now? I would say that is a
:15:29. > :15:38.completely different argument to state schools. Would you? Yeah. I
:15:39. > :15:43.was at a guy from St John's College Cambridge, 70% from director grammar
:15:44. > :15:48.schools now it's... I don't think you can use grammar schools as a
:15:49. > :15:52.proper example of state schools. It becomes an easy thing to do say
:15:53. > :15:57.children went to a grammar school where you cream off the people at
:15:58. > :16:02.the top - I understand that. The bit of the argument you deny. In those
:16:03. > :16:10.days people who had no money got into Oxford and Cambridge and became
:16:11. > :16:15.Cabinet ministers, because of the changes ha is no longer true.
:16:16. > :16:20.Grammar schools don't spread advantage they entrench it. That is
:16:21. > :16:23.the Conservative Party view, it's absolutely right. The point you make
:16:24. > :16:28.about kids not being as bright as they were, looking at the exam
:16:29. > :16:33.papers of 20 to 30 years ago. You can get children now to take the
:16:34. > :16:37.exam papers of 30 years ago. You can't get children then to take the
:16:38. > :16:41.exam papers of today. That is the essential point. Life changes.
:16:42. > :16:46.Questions change. Computer technology etc changes. Final
:16:47. > :16:52.question to Mr Drew. You attack free schools. The latest Ofsted study
:16:53. > :16:56.shows, they are being held to a higher degree by Ofsted. Of those
:16:57. > :17:00.new free schools provided by new entrance, people never in the
:17:01. > :17:05.education before, 75% are outstanding? I don't think 75% are
:17:06. > :17:11.outstanding. 5% have been graded as good or outstanding. 75% outstanding
:17:12. > :17:15.by those provided of new entrants not in the system before. The
:17:16. > :17:18.arguments is the people come in and give you a run for your money?
:17:19. > :17:21.Michael Gove talks about the fact he wants all state school children to
:17:22. > :17:25.have the same opportunity as children say going to Eton or other
:17:26. > :17:29.places. What Michael Gove has done is created an unlevel playing field.
:17:30. > :17:32.The reason why maybe free schools in that environment can do better is
:17:33. > :17:36.because the funding is not the same. If you look at the funding given to
:17:37. > :17:39.a new free school opening and you look at the way they are funded.
:17:40. > :17:42.Their funding per pupil is higher than a school that doesn't receive
:17:43. > :17:46.that. At the end of the day, the more money you give to somebody in a
:17:47. > :17:53.school, if you double the amount of money you have, you can cut your
:17:54. > :17:56.class size in half - Lots of countries are spending less per
:17:57. > :18:04.pupil than we are and getting better results. Better results. Why are
:18:05. > :18:07.China ahead of Britain in the PISA tables, they use Shanghai and the
:18:08. > :18:11.most wealthy children. You can't compare. There was a survey last
:18:12. > :18:15.week that said Britain had the second most successful education
:18:16. > :18:19.system in Europe. Where was that all over the news when the PISA results
:18:20. > :18:23.come out, we are the worst people in the world. When another survey say
:18:24. > :18:28.we ared second only behind Finland, where is the news about that? It's
:18:29. > :18:35.not a storey people want to publish. Good luck with the Academy. Thank
:18:36. > :18:39.you. Now, it's late - Richard Judy pearl-handled revolver late. So join
:18:40. > :18:43.us in our own little pact and let us put you out of your misery by
:18:44. > :18:47.sticking with us to the bitter end of the Blue Nun keg. Because a man
:18:48. > :18:51.who starred in the best TV show ever made, well after Breaking Bad, is
:18:52. > :18:54.now waiting in the wings of the second best - or should that be
:18:55. > :18:58.third best TV show ever made! From The Wire, now from This Week, actor
:18:59. > :19:02.and writer Clarke Peters is here to discuss something we're not even
:19:03. > :19:05.sure we can say - the N-word. And with news that Morrissey has now
:19:06. > :19:09.joined Twitter - and attracted three times more followers in an hour than
:19:10. > :19:13.we've managed to attract in three years - we can no longer claim to be
:19:14. > :19:21.the most miserable whingers on The Twitter, The Fleecebook or the
:19:22. > :19:24.Interweb. Morrissey has arrived. We all know how much the Prime Minister
:19:25. > :19:27.likes his holidays, but the jellyfish of Lanzarote will have to
:19:28. > :19:30.sting some other hapless Brit this weekend because, with the polls
:19:31. > :19:33.narrowing in Scotland, it's squeaky bum time for Unionists, and
:19:34. > :19:36.call-me-Dave's been forced to head for the lochs and highlands he loves
:19:37. > :19:40.so much to help convince the Celts that they're better off with him in
:19:41. > :19:43.charge. Good luck with that, Dave! So with a new programme on BBC Two
:19:44. > :19:46.Scotland starting soon called, Scotland 2014, we turned to its host
:19:47. > :19:50.and new BBC super-signing, Sarah Smith, for her thoughts on Cameron
:19:51. > :20:06.in Caledonia and for her round-up of the political week.
:20:07. > :20:13.All those arguments that go round and round in Westminster every week,
:20:14. > :20:15.from up here in Scotland, they don't look like anything more than just an
:20:16. > :20:29.illusion. Lots of people think the SNP leader,
:20:30. > :20:34.Alex Salmond, is a big head even if the 5: 2 diet means the body is
:20:35. > :20:39.getting smaller. Why shouldn't he be pleased with himself, his campaign
:20:40. > :20:42.for Scottish independence has all the momentum right now. The No
:20:43. > :20:46.campaign is known as Better Together. It has become obvious this
:20:47. > :20:52.week they are not very happy together. Splits over a negative and
:20:53. > :20:55.lacklustre campaign. Some would like to see the man in charge, Alistair
:20:56. > :21:00.Darling's, head on a platter. They can't sack him, that would look too
:21:01. > :21:05.chaotic. He will be sidelined we will see more of his old boss,
:21:06. > :21:08.Gordon Brown instead. David Cameron has come up to Scotland today.
:21:09. > :21:10.Gordon Brown instead. David Cameron though Scottish Labour have told him
:21:11. > :21:14.to keep out of the country because he is so unpopular here. He's
:21:15. > :21:20.unimpressed with Labour's efforts so far. He is ignoring their warnings
:21:21. > :21:26.that his presence might persuade people to vote Yes, something Alex
:21:27. > :21:33.Salmond is happy to exploit. More pandas in the zoo than Tory MPs.
:21:34. > :21:37.Sending them up to Scotland won't impress the Scottish people. I think
:21:38. > :21:41.the Prime Minister's performance has been a major liability for the No
:21:42. > :21:45.campaign. David Cameron been looking into a crystal ball and seen a
:21:46. > :21:49.future in which Scotland really might break away? He has been
:21:50. > :21:53.contemplating his own political future. Telling friends there is no
:21:54. > :21:58.reason why he should have to resign if there is a Yes vote. Many think
:21:59. > :22:03.there is no way he could cling on to political power if he has lost a
:22:04. > :22:09.large chunk of the country. It's that everyone who cares about our
:22:10. > :22:12.United Kingdom speaks up for our United Kingdom you hear it from the
:22:13. > :22:16.Liberal Democrats, Labour politicians and a Conservative like
:22:17. > :22:19.myself. As Prime Minister of the United Kingdom I want to play a
:22:20. > :22:24.strong and positive role in making the case, not only for what we have
:22:25. > :22:28.achieved together as a United Kingdom what we can achief together
:22:29. > :22:33.in the future. We have European and local elections next week, and the
:22:34. > :22:37.Tories are going into both feeling 10-feet taller since two separate
:22:38. > :22:41.opinion polls put them ahead of Labour for the first time in two
:22:42. > :22:46.years. Down in London, Ed Miliband is worrying about his shrinking
:22:47. > :22:49.popularity. It causes him additional problems here in Scotland too. The
:22:50. > :22:53.more it looks like the Tories might win the next Westminster general
:22:54. > :22:59.election, the more Scots will be persuaded to vote for independence
:23:00. > :23:01.to escape from Tory rule. That's a conundrum for David Cameron too. The
:23:02. > :23:11.more he looks like a winner down south, the more he might end up
:23:12. > :23:13.being a loser up here. The good news for David Cameron is that his
:23:14. > :23:18.Government seems to have found their way through the economic maze, which
:23:19. > :23:25.is more than I'm managing to do here! Unemployment is at its lowest
:23:26. > :23:29.rate for five years, the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney has
:23:30. > :23:35.upgrade the growth forecast. In short, the economy has started to
:23:36. > :23:39.head back to normal. Everything in Scotland is reflected through the
:23:40. > :23:42.independence referendum. Now people are asking themselves if the UK
:23:43. > :23:47.economy is improving, does that mean that Scots will vote to stay part of
:23:48. > :23:50.the union so they can share in the benefits? Does it mean they will
:23:51. > :23:56.think they can now afford to go their own way? Now, I just need to
:23:57. > :24:02.work out how to go my way out of here! Nigel Farage came to visit us
:24:03. > :24:06.in Scotland a few days ago. He might as well have beamed in from outer
:24:07. > :24:10.space for you will the relevance he has here. He could yet have an
:24:11. > :24:14.impact on the referendum. Let us imagine UKIP do really well in the
:24:15. > :24:18.European elections in England, but their stars fail to shine in
:24:19. > :24:22.Scotland. That would allow the Yes campaign to argue that voters
:24:23. > :24:25.priorities and values are so fundamentally different in the two
:24:26. > :24:30.countries there is no point in continuing with a political union.
:24:31. > :24:37.What Alex Salmond is offering you is not voting Yes for independence,
:24:38. > :24:40.it's voting Yes for Brussels. He wanted Scotland to join the euro. He
:24:41. > :24:44.is happy for the majority of Scotland's laws to be made somewhere
:24:45. > :24:47.else. The Better Together campaign have never challenged him on this
:24:48. > :24:49.point because they too want Scotland and the UK to remain part of the
:24:50. > :25:06.European Union. Back in the real world, looking out
:25:07. > :25:10.across the Edinburgh skyline, it's worth remembering, it was 15 years
:25:11. > :25:14.ago this week the Scottish Parliament first opened. It was 20
:25:15. > :25:18.years ago this week that my father, the Labour leader, John Smith died.
:25:19. > :25:22.People have been asking me all week - what would he have made of the
:25:23. > :25:25.referendum debate? The truth is I don't know the answer to that more
:25:26. > :25:30.than anybody else. I know he was a man who passionately loved Scotland
:25:31. > :25:40.and passionately loved politics. Whatever else, he will certainly be
:25:41. > :25:44.enjoying every minute of it. Sarah Smith there. We are joined in our
:25:45. > :25:48.little world of illusion by the man some of you may have heard of, the
:25:49. > :25:53.leader of UKIP, Nigel Farage. And a woman you all have heard of, the
:25:54. > :25:56.leader of the Green Party, Natalie Bennett. Welcome to both of you.
:25:57. > :26:00.Natalie you are an Australian leader of the Green Party of England and
:26:01. > :26:06.Wales. Should Scott land leave the UK I'm a British leader. I choose to
:26:07. > :26:11.be British. There is a clue in my title which is The Leader of the
:26:12. > :26:16.Green Party of England and Wales. We choose to go independent in 1990.
:26:17. > :26:21.The Scottish Greens are saying a Yes vote. A different Yes vote to what
:26:22. > :26:24.Alex Salmond is saying. Yes for a radically changed Scotland. A
:26:25. > :26:30.Scotland that works for the common good. Nigel, what is the relevance
:26:31. > :26:34.of UKIP in Scotland They will win their first seat in the European
:26:35. > :26:40.parliament next Thursday. Pretty confident of that. We may win two if
:26:41. > :26:46.it goes well. One I'm certain of? Really? That would be a turn up. It
:26:47. > :26:54.will change the debate north of the border. The proposal is, say goodbye
:26:55. > :26:58.to Westminster and say, yes, to Brussels. Call it what you like.
:26:59. > :27:01.Whether you are pro-EU or not you cannot be an independent nation and
:27:02. > :27:05.a member of the European Union. I'm hoping we can change the whole
:27:06. > :27:09.dynamic of that debate over the summer. Why isn't Alistair Darling
:27:10. > :27:15.running a more inspiring Better Together campaign? I think he is.
:27:16. > :27:19.It's difficult when you are arguing for a No vote to anything. It's a
:27:20. > :27:27.negative that you are asking for. The I think some of the stuff we
:27:28. > :27:32.hear down here is exaggerated. They had a steady lead. A bigger lead,
:27:33. > :27:36.but it looks like it's opening up again. They have drafted in Gordon
:27:37. > :27:40.Brown we don't know if Alistair Darling can work together? I watched
:27:41. > :27:44.them work together. Sometimes successfully, sometimes not. You
:27:45. > :27:47.watched them blow apart. I would guess Gordon was planning to come in
:27:48. > :27:51.at some stage. There was a certain tension whether Gordon could work
:27:52. > :27:56.effectively with the other parties. There was a Labour campaign he was
:27:57. > :27:59.involved in. You wonder if Scottish Labour tribalism isn't more
:28:00. > :28:05.important than saving the union for them? I hope it is. It's crucial.
:28:06. > :28:08.You have seen it close up. I'm surprised at left. For a
:28:09. > :28:14.left-of-centre party to be arguing for the kind of, I think, narrow
:28:15. > :28:17.nationalism we seeing up there astounds me. I believe in the union
:28:18. > :28:22.because I think England is much better with Scotland. Scot can is a
:28:23. > :28:26.separate country. It can do its own thing now with devolution. It must
:28:27. > :28:29.be right for people on the left to say, we should be part of something
:28:30. > :28:33.bigger, not something narrower and smaller. What the Scots are saying.
:28:34. > :28:36.They want a society that, works for the common good not just for the
:28:37. > :28:43.good of the few. They have been trying to do that against the weight
:28:44. > :28:47.of English votes for a long time. It doesn't just give a majority for
:28:48. > :28:51.independence.le to say the Scots are saying that would be quite
:28:52. > :28:59.inaccurate. You end up at the point of the election date if you follow
:29:00. > :29:04.the train through - Widen again? No - It's right on the edge. The facts
:29:05. > :29:08.are important. The polls have started to widen again. Not back to
:29:09. > :29:13.the wideness where they were before. They have started to widen again. I
:29:14. > :29:15.was up there injuring during the 2011 Scottish shall parliament
:29:16. > :29:27.campaign it felt like a different country to me! Is Nigel. You called
:29:28. > :29:33.her the party 's rise g star. She resigned because she said you were
:29:34. > :29:37."attracting the racest vote" how did that make you feel? She was on
:29:38. > :29:41.Channel 4 News arguing because we don't want to discriminate between
:29:42. > :29:50.engineers from India and doctors from New Zealand, we have an open
:29:51. > :29:54.door that UKIP had the most Equitable idea. What happened? She
:29:55. > :29:58.was under huge peer pressure at university. After the debate on
:29:59. > :30:01.Channel 4 her opponents said disobliging things to her. I can
:30:02. > :30:08.only think some pressure was applied to her to make her change her mind.
:30:09. > :30:11.A sense of perspective on this. One 21-year-old member of the party, who
:30:12. > :30:15.wasn't holding a position in the party, she had in previous years,
:30:16. > :30:21.leaves the party and makes that comment. Front page on the
:30:22. > :30:25.newspapers.le hugish on the BBC News. The week before we had several
:30:26. > :30:30.dozen black and minority ethnic candidates on a stage with me in
:30:31. > :30:33.London. Last Sunday we overtook the Conservative Party in terms of the
:30:34. > :30:36.number of black and ethnic voters to come out for us next week, shows me
:30:37. > :30:39.that there is an establishment here terrified of what UKIP is doing and
:30:40. > :30:53.desperate to pin this label on us. But it is in a long line of similar
:30:54. > :30:59.examples. There is no other example, not one. Not one example of
:31:00. > :31:03.an ethnic member of UKIP leaving and saying that. But lots of
:31:04. > :31:08.embarrassments for you. One of the people you mention who was with you
:31:09. > :31:13.on the platform, a restaurant owner, high up your list, could well be in
:31:14. > :31:18.MEPs, you have described him as your immigration spokesman at one stage,
:31:19. > :31:22.it is now discovered that his restaurant was employing seven
:31:23. > :31:28.illegal immigrant is. Here's our small business spokesman and his son
:31:29. > :31:31.is the director and runs the restaurant and they have an argument
:31:32. > :31:36.with the immigration people which they are appealing. The Labour Party
:31:37. > :31:40.in Harrow last year, seven Black Labour councillors resigned,
:31:41. > :31:45.accusing the party of racism. That is not a national news story. If it
:31:46. > :31:51.happens in UKIP, it is. Of course we have people who have said and done
:31:52. > :31:54.bad things. But the level of media witchhunt against anybody from UKIP
:31:55. > :32:00.who says or does anything shows me we must be doing very well. There is
:32:01. > :32:05.a reason why these stories get picked up. If you look at the
:32:06. > :32:09.posters you put up, post dangerous, damaging, divisive posters, claiming
:32:10. > :32:14.26 million Europeans are coming to take your job, you are taking
:32:15. > :32:18.problems we have in our society, problems with the fact of low pay,
:32:19. > :32:23.with housing shortages and the NHS and schools, and you are blaming
:32:24. > :32:29.immigrants. You are letting the establishment off the hook. If you
:32:30. > :32:35.understand basic arithmetic, you will see that in the last year the
:32:36. > :32:40.number of foreign workers in Britain increased by 7%. Net migration to
:32:41. > :32:46.Britain is nearly 250,000 people a year. Logically, there are fewer
:32:47. > :32:50.jobs, there is wage compression, fewer primary places, more pressure
:32:51. > :32:57.on Accident Emergency. It is called numbers, how the world
:32:58. > :33:01.actually works. How do you think UKIP is standing up to the media
:33:02. > :33:07.spotlight? Is it having any effect, are they continuing to rise in the
:33:08. > :33:12.polls? I saw one poll this afternoon which showed the UKIP vote was very
:33:13. > :33:16.soft vis-a-vis the general election. The Conservatives are now more or
:33:17. > :33:21.less resigned to coming third in the European election, so it is all
:33:22. > :33:24.about 2015, leaving the Scottish referendum aside, which is very
:33:25. > :33:30.important. So I think the Conservatives feel reasonably safe,
:33:31. > :33:32.in the sense that Labour and the Conservatives are very close in the
:33:33. > :33:37.opinion polls which is a good position for the Tories right now.
:33:38. > :33:43.They are looking at what the UKIP voters will do in 2015, and a poll
:33:44. > :33:47.today suggested the UKIP vote for 2015 is soft, so people will vote
:33:48. > :33:54.UKIP next week but are unclear about what they will do in 2015. What is
:33:55. > :33:58.interesting is that there are quite a lot of Conservative voters who
:33:59. > :34:00.will lend their vote to UKIP in the European context but go back to the
:34:01. > :34:04.Conservative Party at the general election, but the Labour voters who
:34:05. > :34:09.have switched seem to want to stick with us rather more. I think it is
:34:10. > :34:12.quite likely that the arithmetical effect will be greater on the Labour
:34:13. > :34:18.Party than on the Conservative Party. Natalie Bennett, he gets lots
:34:19. > :34:24.of publicity, not all of it good. Your problem is that you don't get
:34:25. > :34:27.any. We have a rising range of publicity. People are noticing that
:34:28. > :34:32.the European elections are proportional representation, and we
:34:33. > :34:38.have seen a significant rise in the polls. What would be a good result?
:34:39. > :34:43.We need a swing of 1.6% of trouble our number of MEPs. I am confident
:34:44. > :34:48.with -- we will see an increase in our number of MEPs. Do you want
:34:49. > :34:58.another bet with me? You lost the last one. Another fiver. Finally, on
:34:59. > :35:02.Ed Miliband, what is the biggest reason his poll ratings are now not
:35:03. > :35:09.just below Gordon Brown's but below Nick Clegg's? The single biggest
:35:10. > :35:13.reason why the leader of the Labour Party is not streets ahead, you have
:35:14. > :35:16.to look at the point that only once in the last 80 years has a party
:35:17. > :35:23.come back into power five years after losing. That does not explain
:35:24. > :35:31.his personal ratings. It is a very difficult route to take. I am trying
:35:32. > :35:36.to tell you the truth. In terms of where we stand now, having lost an
:35:37. > :35:41.election very recently, in the minds of people, they rejected us. Nobody
:35:42. > :35:46.won that election, we lost it. To come back from that, the second
:35:47. > :35:49.worst vote we had since universal franchise, is a tough job. In terms
:35:50. > :35:55.of the policies he is putting forward, the popularity of those
:35:56. > :36:02.with the public, he is doing fine. The parting -- the party ratings are
:36:03. > :36:15.OK, not great, but why are his personal ratings so bad? What is
:36:16. > :36:19.really important is how the party is doing. The individual ratings, you
:36:20. > :36:25.can never be prime ministerial when you have not been Prime Minister.
:36:26. > :36:28.Invariably, even John Major against Tony Blair, they will show that the
:36:29. > :36:35.person in post gets a lot better polling on does he look as good as a
:36:36. > :36:40.Prime Minister. A good straight bat there. Mo runs, but you were not
:36:41. > :36:44.bowled out. Thank you both. Now, some things we can say, some
:36:45. > :36:47.things we can't. We can say Gary Barlow's a tax avoider with an OBE.
:36:48. > :36:50.Yet for some strange reason only David Cameron understands, we can't
:36:51. > :36:54.say he's a tax evader without an OBE, despite being ordered to pay
:36:55. > :36:58.back millions of pounds in tax he managed to evade. I mean avoid. I
:36:59. > :37:02.mean evade. I mean avoid. Oh, it's harder than I thought. But when it
:37:03. > :37:05.comes to other words, it's easier. Or is it? That's why we've decided
:37:06. > :37:07.to tackle the ultimate verbal taboo and put the N-word in tonight's
:37:08. > :37:31.Spotlight. If reports of the takeover of Doctor
:37:32. > :37:35.dre's beats electronics by Apple are true we could soon see the world's
:37:36. > :37:40.first hip-hop had phoned billionaire, not bad for a wrapper
:37:41. > :37:47.first gain in famille and fortune with the liberal use of the N-word.
:37:48. > :37:53.A veteran local radio DJ played an old retort -- recording of the sun
:37:54. > :37:56.has got his hat on, not realising it contained the same racial
:37:57. > :38:01.profanity. The BBC said an on-air apology was not enough and accepted
:38:02. > :38:05.his resignation. But for Jeremy Clarkson, an online apology was
:38:06. > :38:10.enough, after an outtake appeared to show the top gear presenter reciting
:38:11. > :38:19.a famous nursery rhyme and mumbling what sounded like the N-word by
:38:20. > :38:24.accident. Clarkson got away with it. So is the N-word always a no-no in
:38:25. > :38:28.every situation, or are there times when it is acceptable depending on
:38:29. > :38:33.who uses it? Or is the issue far from black and white? I'm delighted
:38:34. > :38:37.to say we are joined by Clarke Peters. Welcome to this week. Is
:38:38. > :38:48.there ever an appropriate time to use the N-word? I don't think so.
:38:49. > :38:53.Was there ever an appropriate time to use the KE word after the Second
:38:54. > :38:56.World War? That seems to have gone out of the language, but for some
:38:57. > :39:00.reason the N-word seems to have left and it came back. I am going to
:39:01. > :39:05.point attention to something that Marlon Brando was pointing out. We
:39:06. > :39:11.have to look at where it is being promoted from. And then we have to
:39:12. > :39:15.look at why it is back out here. Richard Pryor pretty much brought it
:39:16. > :39:20.back into vogue. But having gone to Africa and realising who he was, he
:39:21. > :39:27.also came back and said, wait a second, I was wrong. We don't need
:39:28. > :39:31.to do that. Please stop. Which I thought was not only brave but the
:39:32. > :39:35.right thing. Would it have been better to have attempted to abolish
:39:36. > :39:40.the use of the word altogether, rather than as a number of Black
:39:41. > :39:46.stars and celebrities did, trying to expropriated for themselves? How can
:39:47. > :39:51.you do that? The moment you say it, you cannot take it out of the air
:39:52. > :39:54.and stick it and hide it someplace. We shouldn't be having this
:39:55. > :40:02.conversation. We shouldn't have to have this conversation. If you can
:40:03. > :40:05.take one word out of our language commie can take the N-word out of
:40:06. > :40:13.our language through a couple of generations. These rap stars, was it
:40:14. > :40:17.a mistake? I think they were used, quite honestly, in order to get it
:40:18. > :40:21.back into the world. In order to take a look at the differences
:40:22. > :40:28.between us by the colour of our skins. And I think they are not
:40:29. > :40:32.aware of how they were being used, because all of a sudden you are a
:40:33. > :40:38.millionaire, a billionaire, coming from a low income, and uneducated
:40:39. > :40:43.family environment. But at the end of the day, the use of the word has
:40:44. > :40:47.got you some money. We got to a stage where it had almost become
:40:48. > :40:52.acceptable for black people to use it, but obviously still very
:40:53. > :40:57.unacceptable for others to use it. It is really not acceptable for
:40:58. > :41:03.black people to use it. It was in the wire, wasn't it? It was. When
:41:04. > :41:10.they tried to put it into my character's mouth, I said, there is
:41:11. > :41:14.no way that this man is going to condescend to this level of
:41:15. > :41:17.communication. There is just no way. How do we put it back in the box? We
:41:18. > :41:24.know what it means, where it comes from. Unfortunately, people don't
:41:25. > :41:29.know what it means all where it comes from, or how painful it is to
:41:30. > :41:34.people of colour, as well as for Caucasians who feel guilty because
:41:35. > :41:39.it is out there. Everybody hurts from it, except for those who are
:41:40. > :41:44.making money off of it. One way to start putting it back into its box
:41:45. > :41:49.is to censor it, but also to start explaining to people where it comes
:41:50. > :41:53.from and why it is so distasteful and reprehensible. Absolutely.
:41:54. > :41:58.Education will be the greatest thing for getting rid of that word. It
:41:59. > :42:06.will give people of colour sense of integrity once it is out of the
:42:07. > :42:11.way. In the 1950s, we had the images - this is black America I'm speaking
:42:12. > :42:18.of - I am surprised having been here all these years that now it is
:42:19. > :42:24.here. Like crack is here, like the police now have guns here. When I
:42:25. > :42:28.got here, it was not like that. Maybe this is the project --
:42:29. > :42:34.progression we have to go through, I am not sure, but we can get rid of
:42:35. > :42:39.this word. I can only agree. The word is unacceptable. I had heard
:42:40. > :42:41.black people were using it so I thought that was a matter for black
:42:42. > :42:46.people to discuss amongst themselves. I think we have heard a
:42:47. > :42:51.very logical explanation about why that is not acceptable either. I
:42:52. > :42:55.think the BBC got it totally wrong on those examples. They did nothing
:42:56. > :43:02.to Clarkson and they sacked someone for putting on a record. They messed
:43:03. > :43:05.up both ways. You have to look at the reasons why a person has done
:43:06. > :43:12.what they have done, or made the decision they have made. I don't
:43:13. > :43:16.think either one of them should have been - they should have been
:43:17. > :43:20.chastised, but I don't think he should have lost is job, but I think
:43:21. > :43:26.Jeremy saying, it was a bad move, that should easily be accepted. He
:43:27. > :43:32.was brought up at a time when that word was there. It was part of his
:43:33. > :43:42.DNA as a child. Just before we go, what are you up to? I am doing
:43:43. > :43:46.Midsummer murders. Good to see you again. We have met in another life,
:43:47. > :43:48.you know. But we will not tell you about that.
:43:49. > :43:51.That's your lot for tonight, folks. But not for us, because we're going
:43:52. > :43:54.old school and heading back to Annabel's, where it's classic disco
:43:55. > :43:58.inferno night. And with Clarke Peters along for the ride, the dance
:43:59. > :44:01.floor are in for a flared-trouser treat. Because believe it or not,
:44:02. > :44:04.Clarke is actually responsible for some deep disco history. He may not
:44:05. > :44:07.be in this clip but his backing vocals most certainly are.
:44:08. > :44:14.Nighty-night. Don't let the Clarke Peters boogie night bite.
:44:15. > :44:20.# Boogie nights # Ain't no doubt, we are here to
:44:21. > :44:28.party # Come on out, got to get it started
:44:29. > :44:32.# Dance with the boogie, get down # Because boogie nights are always
:44:33. > :44:36.the best in town # Got to keep on dancing
:44:37. > :44:43.# Keep on dancing # Boogie nights
:44:44. > :44:46.# Feel that groove, let it take you higher. #