:00:15. > :00:19.Tonight, join This Week for the Westminster Clothes Show.
:00:20. > :00:22.As David Cameron throws away some of his out-of-date outfits - white,
:00:23. > :00:31.middle-aged, males - are the Tory ladies modelling
:00:32. > :00:38.Michael Gove was out of fashion this week as David Cameron promoted
:00:39. > :00:41.a host of women to plum Westminster jobs, but are they there
:00:42. > :00:53.Paralympian and disability campaigner
:00:54. > :01:05.Tanni Grey-Thompson has dressed up her argument for This Week.
:01:06. > :01:09.The Assisted Dying Bill needs more than a make over. It needs to be
:01:10. > :01:11.torn up completely. And in a week
:01:12. > :01:16.when Cabinet ministers were sacked, Legendary drummer Ginger Baker
:01:17. > :01:24.keeps on banging his sticks. I'm changing into my mankini and I'm
:01:25. > :01:35.ready for the show. Welcome to This Week,
:01:36. > :01:39.a week in which to be male, pale and stale means you know what it's
:01:40. > :01:44.like to be an endangered species. Thank goodness nobody here
:01:45. > :01:49.fits that description. Many moons ago,
:01:50. > :01:51.an Old Etonian Oxbridge Tory grandee called Harold Macmillan culled
:01:52. > :01:54.his Cabinet in what was dubbed This week,
:01:55. > :01:58.an Old Etonian Oxbridge Tory grandee staged a repeat performance,
:01:59. > :02:01.though for Call Me Dave it was more Middle-aged men were ruthlessly
:02:02. > :02:11.dispatched and replaced with Dave's Darlings,
:02:12. > :02:13.who sashayed up the Downing Street Turns out,
:02:14. > :02:22.after all the cull and churn, that women are still a small Cabinet
:02:23. > :02:25.minority, and to be male, pale and stale still beats being female
:02:26. > :02:33.with painted nails and a ponytail. It was also the week that Call Me
:02:34. > :02:39.Dave's arch enemy Jean-Claude "mine's a triple Cognac, high five"
:02:40. > :02:42.Juncker became the new President Our PM has attacked him
:02:43. > :02:47.for being unknown and unelected. And to underline his contempt,
:02:48. > :02:49.Dave nominated as our next Commissioner someone
:02:50. > :02:52.even more unknown and unelected than But he went to a posh Eton Group
:02:53. > :03:05.school, then Oxbridge, reassuring the Tory old guard that,
:03:06. > :03:08.despite all the trendy talk of diversity, where you come from still
:03:09. > :03:12.matters more than your gender. Speaking of those who have risen
:03:13. > :03:20.without trace, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two long-serving
:03:21. > :03:23.knights of the This Week sofa, neither of whom could be easily
:03:24. > :03:25.bought-off with a political gong. Think of them as the Sir Galahad
:03:26. > :03:28.and the "Sir, I've forgotten my homework
:03:29. > :03:31." of late night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:32. > :03:33.of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson, and #sadmanonatrain Michael
:03:34. > :03:40."one way ticket" Portillo. And as a special end-of-term treat,
:03:41. > :03:55.#mollythedog. So, that was the week, but today the
:03:56. > :04:01.world suddenly got a lot more dangerous. This plane, obviously
:04:02. > :04:06.shot down over Ukraine, tanks, Israeli forces going into Gaza, it's
:04:07. > :04:11.a dangerous world. I don't know that it's got a lot more dangerous. This
:04:12. > :04:15.is a tragic event and Europeans and Americans will be interested.
:04:16. > :04:18.Ukraine and Russia have rather dropped out of the headlines
:04:19. > :04:25.recently, but hundreds have died there in 300 more today. I think
:04:26. > :04:28.what is happening in Syria and what is happening in Iraq represents a
:04:29. > :04:32.substantial danger. What is happening in Gaza is a repeat of
:04:33. > :04:36.something which has occurred in one decade after another. The novelty of
:04:37. > :04:39.the world today is that it is a world in which there is no influence
:04:40. > :04:47.of American or European foreign policy. There is a vacuum. President
:04:48. > :04:50.Obama has pretty much disappeared from the scene. Europeans can't even
:04:51. > :04:55.decide who their Foreign Minister is going to be and they are completely
:04:56. > :04:58.divided. The British have no foreign policy and reduce their influence on
:04:59. > :05:05.a day by day basis. Whatever is happening, we play no part in it
:05:06. > :05:11.whatsoever. That is the novelty. But if this Malaysian plane was brought
:05:12. > :05:17.down by missile systems given to the Ukrainian separatists by the
:05:18. > :05:23.Russians, which I have to say at the moment, we don't know for sure but
:05:24. > :05:28.looks like the most likely. Over 100 people -- Dutch people were in that
:05:29. > :05:34.plane, dead, and a number of Brits as well, huge number of EU citizens,
:05:35. > :05:40.and Americans, too. This has the potential to be a serious foreign
:05:41. > :05:45.policy crisis. 24 Australians, too. This plane was at over 30,000 feet,
:05:46. > :05:50.so it is inconceivable that it was a shoulder held... It has to be a
:05:51. > :05:53.serious piece of kit. I think the important thing is whether Putin
:05:54. > :05:58.becomes involved in finding out what happened. He has to very quickly say
:05:59. > :06:04.that he will give full cooperation. Just before we came on air, you
:06:05. > :06:07.probably don't know, we just learned that he is blaming the Ukrainian
:06:08. > :06:11.military for that. Why would they do that? The plane was leaving
:06:12. > :06:20.Ukrainian airspace, heading south east. It doesn't sound feasible. Why
:06:21. > :06:25.would anybody do it? The separatists probably thought it was a Ukrainian
:06:26. > :06:29.air force plane. And Iranians plane was brought down at one time
:06:30. > :06:36.probably by an American missile. These tragedies happen from time to
:06:37. > :06:40.time. And I don't think they are intended by anyone. They do focus
:06:41. > :06:45.attention for a while but whether they have long-term consequences is
:06:46. > :06:46.a different issue. I would not visit consequences on the Russians but I
:06:47. > :06:48.would say that Putin consequences on the Russians but I
:06:49. > :06:51.would say has to get involved in finding out what has happened.
:06:52. > :06:54.Now, anyone who bothered watching last week's show may have noticed we
:06:55. > :06:56.were in Edinburgh with a live audience and bottomless
:06:57. > :07:00.Now, loath as we are to admit it, BBC Yentobs have declared last
:07:01. > :07:03.week's programme a triumph, and, in the spirit of flogging a dead
:07:04. > :07:06.referendum, decided we should return to Edinburgh for a lap of honour.
:07:07. > :07:10.So on September 11th, exactly one week before the vote takes place, we
:07:11. > :07:15.will be packing the This Week camper van once again and heading north.
:07:16. > :07:18.And we're looking for another Edinburgh audience.
:07:19. > :07:22.So if you'd like to come, go to our website and tell us why
:07:23. > :07:24.you can't think of anything better to do on a Thursday night.
:07:25. > :07:30.Those who give the best reasons get the best seats.
:07:31. > :07:33.Now, tomorrow sees the House of Lords discuss one of the most
:07:34. > :07:35.controversial bills put before Parliament for some time, Lord
:07:36. > :07:42.a bill that seeks to give terminally ill people control over the timing
:07:43. > :07:47.It's an issue that affects every family in the land and especially
:07:48. > :07:52.We decided to turn to disability campaigner and former
:07:53. > :07:56.Paralympian Tanni Grey-Thompson to find out what she thinks.
:07:57. > :08:21.It may be sunny and calm outside Westminster today, but tomorrow the
:08:22. > :08:28.House of Lords will debate one of its most emotive and contentious
:08:29. > :08:33.pieces of legislation. The Assisted Dying Bill would give terminally ill
:08:34. > :08:37.patient with less than six months to live the right to administer a fatal
:08:38. > :08:44.dose of prescribed drugs. It is a chilling prospect for disabled
:08:45. > :08:47.people the country. I have experienced first hand what others
:08:48. > :08:53.think of my disability. I would not want to live if I was like you. And
:08:54. > :08:57.recently "you must have thought of killing yourself loads of times". In
:08:58. > :09:01.their eyes, my life is not worth living. But I have had a pretty good
:09:02. > :09:07.life, thanks to the support of friends and family. I have travelled
:09:08. > :09:15.the world, 116 Paralympic medals and held over 30 world records. Not
:09:16. > :09:22.everyone is so lucky. Many disabled people can feel a nuisance, a
:09:23. > :09:24.burden, or too expensive to treat. I am worried that if Assisted Dying
:09:25. > :09:29.Bill is introduced they will be pressurised into and in their lives.
:09:30. > :09:32.That would be a decision they are pushed into, not one they have taken
:09:33. > :09:39.themselves, and what kind of society wants that. If we are not careful,
:09:40. > :09:43.legalising Assisted Dying Bill Adli to a slippery slope, the routine
:09:44. > :09:47.killing of sick and disabled people. Some of them already think their
:09:48. > :09:48.life is worthless. Let's not encourage them to take the next
:09:49. > :09:52.step. And Tanni joins us now.
:09:53. > :10:06.Welcome to the programme. Michael, do you agree that Assisted
:10:07. > :10:11.Dying Bill is wrong? I wouldn't agree with that statement. I agree
:10:12. > :10:13.about the danger of the bit of legislation, which is that it may
:10:14. > :10:20.push people into thinking that they ought to offer themselves for death.
:10:21. > :10:24.I myself absolutely demand the right to be able to die when I want to
:10:25. > :10:27.die. And with the law as it is at the present, I would find myself in
:10:28. > :10:33.a very difficult position, or I would put others in a difficult
:10:34. > :10:37.position. I have a feeling I would find my way through that situation.
:10:38. > :10:40.This is not only about the terminally ill, but also about
:10:41. > :10:45.people who may have various syndromes, and who make a decision
:10:46. > :10:48.that they want to end their lives. I think we ought to respect that.
:10:49. > :10:54.Nonetheless, I think the legislation carries dangers. We have a messy
:10:55. > :10:58.situation at the moment, where some people manage to do what they want
:10:59. > :11:02.to do, and those who assist them manage to do it and they are not
:11:03. > :11:06.prosecuted. It is not in the public interest to prosecute them. It is a
:11:07. > :11:10.messy situation but I have a feeling it may be better than changing the
:11:11. > :11:15.law. The reason is the reason that Taney Grey Thompson has given. What
:11:16. > :11:20.do you make of the point of principle that he demands the right
:11:21. > :11:24.to terminate his own life? It is hard because there has been so much
:11:25. > :11:29.choice about -- talk about free choice and the right to die. It is
:11:30. > :11:32.hard to put that into legislation. The current legislation might not be
:11:33. > :11:38.ideal but I think it is better than the current proposal, because it
:11:39. > :11:42.moves the line in the sand too far. People want a good death, but we get
:11:43. > :11:47.confused between compassion and suffering and it is not as simple as
:11:48. > :11:52.that. The debate is deeper, not one or the other. Where are you? When
:11:53. > :11:59.the bill came out ten years ago I was against it, and I still am. I am
:12:00. > :12:04.against the concept. I can feel the political ground shifting. Michael
:12:05. > :12:07.mentioned locked in syndrome but this would not do anything about
:12:08. > :12:13.people with locked in syndrome unless they were diagnosed with 183
:12:14. > :12:18.days to live and they were of sound mind. My worry is that there is no
:12:19. > :12:22.one saying this should go further, and there are many people who
:12:23. > :12:27.believe locked in syndrome, people in severe pain should have the right
:12:28. > :12:32.to choice. To me, where you send your kids, which supermarket you go
:12:33. > :12:35.to, not the right to live or die. They are keeping quiet because they
:12:36. > :12:40.see this as the start of a process, and that is where I think the danger
:12:41. > :12:45.is. We talk often about the thin end of the wedge, and this is a very
:12:46. > :12:49.thin end of a very thick wedge. If you could be convinced the right
:12:50. > :12:53.safeguards would be in place, would you change your mind? I am not
:12:54. > :13:00.convinced they could be put in place. You don't think it is
:13:01. > :13:04.possible? No, because the forms would be already signed, the doctors
:13:05. > :13:08.do not have time to assess, the NHS is under huge pressure. We also have
:13:09. > :13:14.to think about the motives not just of those request in this, but family
:13:15. > :13:19.members. Not every family has lovely kind, altruistic children and
:13:20. > :13:24.parents. I think it is almost impossible to have safeguards to
:13:25. > :13:30.make this OK. Do you add here to the slippery slope argument, that this
:13:31. > :13:34.could lead almost to the routine demise of the seriously sick and
:13:35. > :13:39.disabled? I will probably get hate mail for this, but look at the
:13:40. > :13:42.abortion legislation, which was originally conceived as exceptional
:13:43. > :13:48.circumstances, needing Doctors certificates, proving psychological
:13:49. > :13:54.damage. But it is now an on demand service. Of course the slippery
:13:55. > :13:58.slope argument applies, because things change over time and they can
:13:59. > :14:06.change very rapidly. Yes, slippery slope, absolutely. Do you sense that
:14:07. > :14:09.the argument may be slipping away from you? We had the former
:14:10. > :14:15.Archbishop of Canterbury coming out in support of assisted dying. The
:14:16. > :14:23.Minister for care and support last night came out and backed it. They
:14:24. > :14:31.have not won the argument, but maybe it is skewing their way. I think
:14:32. > :14:34.it's changed since the Bill came to the House of Lords. I think one of
:14:35. > :14:37.the great difficulties is that a lot of this is being presented as pain
:14:38. > :14:41.and suffering and it's the compassionate thing to do. If you
:14:42. > :14:46.look at Washington State, 61% of people who go for assisted suicide
:14:47. > :14:53.say it's a burden. Pain is at the bottom of the list. It's because
:14:54. > :14:58.they're a burden on society? Their family, yes. That is a slippery
:14:59. > :15:02.slope. Why do you think things are slipping away from your side of the
:15:03. > :15:08.argument that Parliamentarians and influential people in the wider
:15:09. > :15:11.country are moving over in favour of assisted dying? It's heart-breaking
:15:12. > :15:17.individual stories. I saw several of them. You see them on television?
:15:18. > :15:22.People with living longer but with conditions that means they are going
:15:23. > :15:28.to be, as is often said, a burden on their families or whatever. When you
:15:29. > :15:34.hear those first hand testimonies, it's really difficult not to feel
:15:35. > :15:37.sympathy. That I think, along with the feeling, patient choice has
:15:38. > :15:43.actually got something to say here, which I don't agree with, but that's
:15:44. > :15:47.certainly the kind of drift that is coming into this debate. Because in
:15:48. > :15:54.such cases it's monstrous to think that a husband or wife or a doctor
:15:55. > :15:59.would be prosecuted, but actually, you know, what happens is, the cases
:16:00. > :16:02.are assessed on a one by one basis and, on the whole, I'm not saying
:16:03. > :16:06.always, but on the whole, cases are not brought because they are not in
:16:07. > :16:12.the public interest. In those cases, it's understood that a person who is
:16:13. > :16:15.in command of themselves has made a particular decision and a person
:16:16. > :16:18.around that person who loves that person dearly feels that is the rite
:16:19. > :16:23.thing and their right. Unfortunately, as soon as you start
:16:24. > :16:27.to try to write that into a law, it opens up all sorts of possibilities.
:16:28. > :16:31.You said you wanted the right to be able to choose in which you died,
:16:32. > :16:35.but for you to be sure you get that right, don't you have to make
:16:36. > :16:39.advance preparations because we could all be hit by something that
:16:40. > :16:45.disables us and incapacitates us without the ability to make the
:16:46. > :16:48.decision. First of all, you are absolutely right, secondly I
:16:49. > :16:53.haven't, it's one of these things, like making a will, you never get
:16:54. > :16:56.round to doing it. You have to allow for the possibility that you've
:16:57. > :17:02.changed your mind. A friend of mine suffered for many years from motor
:17:03. > :17:07.neurone disease, was unable to speak, his life to me seemed to
:17:08. > :17:10.become desperate and miserable. He managed through eye recognition to
:17:11. > :17:14.write an article for a newspaper describing what his life was like
:17:15. > :17:18.and, to our amazement because he hadn't spoke for the previous three
:17:19. > :17:23.years, he told us his life was full of joy, that he loved watching his
:17:24. > :17:29.house, garden and children grow up, that his life was full of joy. Now,
:17:30. > :17:33.if he hadn't have been able to write that down, goodness knows what he
:17:34. > :17:38.would have written in ten years in advance when he had all his
:17:39. > :17:43.faculties. I suspect you will win in Parliament this time around, is that
:17:44. > :17:46.right? I think it's unlikely in the time we have left to get this
:17:47. > :17:51.through committee but it's going to come back so this round is more
:17:52. > :17:55.about softening public opinion. It's a battle, not the war? It will go
:17:56. > :17:58.through the second reading because the Supreme Court said it should be
:17:59. > :18:02.debated in Parliament, not decided in a court, so even people against
:18:03. > :18:08.the Bill will carry it tomorrow, so that is no the test. Got the
:18:09. > :18:09.Parliament to do it, not the courts. That is right.
:18:10. > :18:15.Thank you. Who, according to the Westminster
:18:16. > :18:28.grapevine, spent his first day as Chief Whipping Boy locked
:18:29. > :18:30.in a lavatory, somewhere But fear not Mrs Gove, it was only
:18:31. > :18:39.his career that was flushed down the Whilst you wait
:18:40. > :18:46.for Michael to break out of the bog, and be reunited with his family,
:18:47. > :18:50.stick with us because waiting in the wings, Beware of Mr Ginger
:18:51. > :18:53.Baker, the greatest drummer to ever And don't forget, if you'd like to
:18:54. > :18:59.join us in Edinburgh on September 11th, just fill out the application
:19:00. > :19:03.form on our Interweb page? And if you have any comments
:19:04. > :19:06.about tonight's show, we're still ignoring you on
:19:07. > :19:18.The Twitter and The Fleecebook. Now, David says the Cabinet is
:19:19. > :19:21.modern. There's nothing a political hack
:19:22. > :19:25.enjoy Morse than a reshuffle, who is up, who is down, who's been shunted
:19:26. > :19:27.sideways. We sent Isabel Hardman to find out. This is her round-up of
:19:28. > :19:38.the week. # Got myself a crying, talking
:19:39. > :19:43.# Sleeping walking # Living doll... #
:19:44. > :19:47.In politics, as in fashion, it's important to plan ahead and this
:19:48. > :19:53.week when top designer David Cameron launched his new rakes of models for
:19:54. > :20:05.the Tory shop window, it was the Spring 2015 consumer he had in mind
:20:06. > :20:09.-- new racks of mod es. . You now see Conservative women occupying
:20:10. > :20:12.posts like Home Secretary, agriculture secretary, Development
:20:13. > :20:19.Secretary, vital jobs with really good people.
:20:20. > :20:25.It was a good week to be young, blonde and female. Less good to be
:20:26. > :20:29.pale, male and stale. David Cameron chucked out a lot of his old stock
:20:30. > :20:34.in the rubbish in the night in which many men, but no women were sacked.
:20:35. > :20:38.But the way this reshuffle was briefed and the way the Mendis
:20:39. > :20:41.appeared to make space for the women suggests that treat was lest
:20:42. > :20:45.interested in merit and more in the message.
:20:46. > :20:51.He's promoting people on the basis of their talent. That's the most
:20:52. > :20:56.important thing. Let's not get too excited. The Tory shop is hardly
:20:57. > :21:00.overstocked with women. The number of female Cabinet Ministers doubled
:21:01. > :21:05.from three to a mighty six - wow! Labour's Shadow Minister for Women
:21:06. > :21:08.was not impressed. I think politics has to look and sound like Britain
:21:09. > :21:10.and when three quarters of your Cabinet are men, that leerily falls
:21:11. > :21:24.short. The biggest shock of this week's
:21:25. > :21:29.reshuffle was the sacking of Michael Gove as Education Secretary. He was
:21:30. > :21:33.demoted to Chief Whip. Gove might be popular in Westminster, but Tory
:21:34. > :21:36.polling showed the voters didn't like him, and, that the customer is
:21:37. > :21:41.always right. He had to two.
:21:42. > :21:47.I certainly regard it as a wrench to leave a job that I enjoyed but also
:21:48. > :21:50.regard it as an exciting and flattering opportunity to contribute
:21:51. > :21:55.at the heart of Government. His wife, Daily Mail columnist Sarah
:21:56. > :21:59.Vine Tweeted her approval of a newspaper article which argued that
:22:00. > :22:07.the reshuffle was a mess and Gove shouldn't have been moved. Funnily
:22:08. > :22:11.enough, the column about her husband, she found as one of the
:22:12. > :22:14.reasons to get rid of him. Ed Miliband took the opportunity to
:22:15. > :22:17.gloat at Prime Minister's Questions. We've always said that we'll support
:22:18. > :22:23.the Government when they do the right thing. So can I join thousands
:22:24. > :22:30.of parents across the country in congratulating him on getting rid of
:22:31. > :22:34.the Education Secretary. Another big change at the top was
:22:35. > :22:39.William Hague being replaced by Philip Hammond as Foreign Secretary.
:22:40. > :22:44.Backbenchers thought Hague had gone native at the Foreign Office and,
:22:45. > :22:49.after maybing politics his life, he'd finally grown tired of it.
:22:50. > :22:52.Despite appearances, Hammond is a more aggressive figure on Europe and
:22:53. > :22:57.has already said he can vote to leave. Whilst that's gone down well
:22:58. > :23:02.with the Conservative Party, it's hardly cheered European leaders
:23:03. > :23:11.who's now facing the hardest Euro-sceptic Government ever.
:23:12. > :23:18.Taking stock is an important part of running any shop. And the Lib Dems
:23:19. > :23:24.have said now is a time to take stock of the unpopular spare room
:23:25. > :23:27.subsidy and bedroom tax. When something isn't working, you should
:23:28. > :23:32.fix it. That is why we want to make sure that the new rules apply to new
:23:33. > :23:37.tenants, but to existing tenants, if they want to move and can't, it's
:23:38. > :23:43.not unreasonable to ask them to pay the extra level. One woman who
:23:44. > :23:47.didn't lose her job this week was Lady Butler-Sloss who stood down as
:23:48. > :23:50.chair of the child abuse inquiry after many questioned her
:23:51. > :23:57.establishment links. It was a mess that could easily have been avoided
:23:58. > :24:02.but Theresa May was unrepentent. I reject entire hi any suggestion she
:24:03. > :24:07.was not the right person to do this. She's rejected the job herself, I'm
:24:08. > :24:13.disappointed and continue her to be someone of impeccable integrity.
:24:14. > :24:19.So barring any mishaps, David Cameron has the shop window set for
:24:20. > :24:23.the next election. The Labour and Liberal Democrat reshuffles are yet
:24:24. > :24:29.to come. When it comes to next May, whose display will the voters want
:24:30. > :24:36.to buy? And from P- her shop window in
:24:37. > :24:42.Central London to our own shop window in Westminster, Isabel
:24:43. > :24:47.Hardman joins us, along with Miranda Green. Do you believe Mrs Gove Tweet
:24:48. > :24:53.add headline that said, a shabby day's work which Cameron will live
:24:54. > :24:57.to regret? Shabby day's work, I would say the country will regret
:24:58. > :25:01.it. The reason I say that particularly, the sacking of Michael
:25:02. > :25:05.Gove, the sacking of Michael Gove is a signal that if you are a Martha
:25:06. > :25:08.tries to do the right thing, courageous, taking on vested
:25:09. > :25:12.interests, you will be fired, no point doing it. So there's no point
:25:13. > :25:18.trying to do the right thing by the country because you are simply, all
:25:19. > :25:21.your efforts will go on the scrapheap. That offers virtually no
:25:22. > :25:23.future for the Government because they are no longer in the business
:25:24. > :25:25.of trying to do the right thing. they are no longer in the business
:25:26. > :25:31.of trying to do the right The reason I say the country will regret it. I
:25:32. > :25:35.think it was the best Education Secretary we'd had. He'd done what
:25:36. > :25:38.Labour Secretary of States and Conservative Secretary of States
:25:39. > :25:42.wanted to do, described it as taking on the establishment of a group of
:25:43. > :25:46.people who I think have done immense damage to the prospects of children
:25:47. > :25:51.and education oaf a very long period of time and the blob's always relied
:25:52. > :25:55.over the decades on ministers being sacked. They think if they can just
:25:56. > :26:00.hold out and the minister goes and they can continue to do the terrible
:26:01. > :26:06.things that that they do. They have got the scalp now. The message is,
:26:07. > :26:10.you know, if you upset any vested interest or pressure group, you will
:26:11. > :26:15.be fired. What kind of message is that to send? Miranda? I think
:26:16. > :26:18.there'll be a lot of continuity in the policies that Michael Gove
:26:19. > :26:23.started under Nicky Morgan and in fact there was a lot of continuity
:26:24. > :26:29.between Michael Gove's policies and the policies of the Blair
:26:30. > :26:31.Government. Indeed. They went into obeyance while Gordon Brown was
:26:32. > :26:34.Prime Minister and Ed Balls was in the department. When Alan and
:26:35. > :26:38.Charles Clarke was there and Ruth Kelly, they were doing quite similar
:26:39. > :26:41.things. One of the key differences though was that they were not going
:26:42. > :26:46.quite so fast and also they did try to make sure that the people who had
:26:47. > :26:51.to implement these quite radical reforms, for example head teachers,
:26:52. > :26:56.came with them under stood the policies and wanted to cooperate. I
:26:57. > :27:02.think Michael Gove's key mistake was not, you know, we hear he has Blair
:27:03. > :27:06.on his wall, he lives by the Blair book, he didn't learn one of the
:27:07. > :27:10.main lessons of that era was that if you are going to turn around a big
:27:11. > :27:14.public service, you have to get the people involved on the ground and on
:27:15. > :27:17.your side and take them with you. I think the policy will continue
:27:18. > :27:21.because there is a lot of aagreement in all parties about what need to be
:27:22. > :27:25.done in schools. Assuming the education department doesn't have
:27:26. > :27:33.Nicky Morgan for breakfast. We shall see on that. Was it really, Isabel,
:27:34. > :27:37.down to Lynton Crosby's groups discovering he was toxic so they had
:27:38. > :27:43.to get him out of this position this side of the election? From
:27:44. > :27:48.conversations I've had with those involved in moving Gove, that was
:27:49. > :27:52.the impression I got. I have some sympathy, it would be a shame for
:27:53. > :27:56.the Conservatives working so hard on the reforms that are so important
:27:57. > :28:02.for getting people whose parents can't afford proper education
:28:03. > :28:07.getting them standard then if they didn't take the credit for it, they
:28:08. > :28:16.are not able to sell that to parents. If the Government of Mr
:28:17. > :28:21.Crosby and Mr Cameron think Mr Gove is toxic in the eyes of the voters,
:28:22. > :28:27.why do you say he'll be the one that will be on TV and radio? Either
:28:28. > :28:31.that's not true or it's ill logical? It's sort of not true in that he's
:28:32. > :28:38.going to be kept on a very tight leash basically. What is your take
:28:39. > :28:43.on this, Alan? There are various views, the headliner was Max
:28:44. > :28:48.Hastings. One that Mrs Gove re-Tweeted? Yes. You don't sack a
:28:49. > :28:54.minister because his wife is a feisty journalist. I think on
:28:55. > :28:58.Michael Gove, Miranda hit the nail on the head. We have the best
:28:59. > :29:01.generation of teachers ever in Michael Gove's words, they are
:29:02. > :29:07.coming out of university if their droves to come and teach. Michael's
:29:08. > :29:10.turned them all against him. I've spoken to Conservative teachers and
:29:11. > :29:14.they are against him. Unlike what we all try to do when we are making
:29:15. > :29:21.great reforms, he didn't make any effort to take people with him on
:29:22. > :29:24.the one hand and he went ahead with this acad maization programme so
:29:25. > :29:29.that now the Department for Education in an era where we are
:29:30. > :29:33.trying to get local accountability it's centrally now controlled, free
:29:34. > :29:38.schools and academies and he took the policy too far. I don't know yet
:29:39. > :29:42.whether the jury is still out on whether it will lead to greater
:29:43. > :29:52.education. Free schools are doing badly. Supposing the Tories win the
:29:53. > :29:58.next election, is he back in a big job again, or is he now on a slow
:29:59. > :30:03.decline? It seems likely to me that his career has peaked. I am not sure
:30:04. > :30:09.why he has taken the job of Chief Whip. It is almost unprecedented for
:30:10. > :30:13.a Chief Whip to have a public role. The point of the Chief Whip is to be
:30:14. > :30:19.anonymous. It is completely contradictory. I think is slightly
:30:20. > :30:22.underestimate. If you are a Secretary of State making big
:30:23. > :30:26.changes, of course you will reap the whirlwind, of course the Department
:30:27. > :30:30.and the vested interests, the trade unions will campaign against you and
:30:31. > :30:35.make you a hate figure. But that is not the moment for the Prime
:30:36. > :30:39.Minister to say, I will fire you. Why is Theresa May not being fired
:30:40. > :30:43.for making enemies of the police? There are two sorts of education
:30:44. > :30:46.minister, those who are popular and those who try to do the right thing.
:30:47. > :30:53.They are two different sorts of people. Parents are involved in
:30:54. > :30:58.education, not in policing. I would say the police force has lost
:30:59. > :31:07.public, -- confidence. I would suppose that is the difference.
:31:08. > :31:13.Highly rated overall? Much more trusted than politicians. Everybody
:31:14. > :31:20.is. Even journalists? Broadcast journalists. You and Nick Clegg will
:31:21. > :31:28.be glad to see the back of him. The Lib Dems also got a scalp. Perhaps.
:31:29. > :31:31.If you believe there is all of this private polling which shows that
:31:32. > :31:36.Michael Gove is so toxic, actually losing him is not so great for the
:31:37. > :31:42.other parties because he might show of voters in your direction. I am
:31:43. > :31:47.pleased that you made the point that he was following the Blairite
:31:48. > :31:51.tradition. That the -- the division is not between Labour, conservatives
:31:52. > :31:54.or liberal Democrats but between all of the politicians and the blob. And
:31:55. > :32:00.the blob has been given victory by the Prime Minister. I think the one
:32:01. > :32:05.lesson which Labour needs to take from this is that Mr Cameron is
:32:06. > :32:10.going to do everything in his power, be as ruthless as he can be, to
:32:11. > :32:16.demote even people we thought he -- were his friends, to win the
:32:17. > :32:20.election. Yes, and I think he is right in not having annual
:32:21. > :32:24.reshuffles. In a sense, he could not have promoted lots of women earlier
:32:25. > :32:28.because the 2010 intake was much more diverse, but he could not put
:32:29. > :32:34.them straight into office. I agree with that I would love to see these
:32:35. > :32:39.women succeed. I would not criticise Nicky Morgan having no experience.
:32:40. > :32:43.Let's see how she gets on. Night of the Long knives is probably the
:32:44. > :32:47.greatest president. Mr Miliband got rid of his friends as well, also his
:32:48. > :32:57.Chancellor, which Mr Cameron has not. And then he lost. What about
:32:58. > :33:02.the women in the cabinet. When you look at the numbers, there are not
:33:03. > :33:07.many. One is not a cabinet minister but someone allowed to sit in the
:33:08. > :33:13.Cabinet, which is different. When I looked at the figures, it goes back
:33:14. > :33:18.to the number of women in 2011. I think it was over-briefed as a
:33:19. > :33:21.reshuffle for the women. But it doesn't matter because Downing
:33:22. > :33:26.Street got the women on the front pages. It is a bit of an illusion.
:33:27. > :33:31.But I do think it is progress and I think it should be celebrated,
:33:32. > :33:34.because I think that remarks about windowdressing and why these
:33:35. > :33:44.mediocre women are being promoted above their ability, etc... Nobody
:33:45. > :33:47.has described Liz Truss as mediocre. In the horrible world of Twitter
:33:48. > :33:51.there have been some unpleasant comments. The thing is, if you don't
:33:52. > :33:57.promote people and give them the chance to shine, how can anyone
:33:58. > :33:59.prove themselves? Also, there is a real feeling across all parties that
:34:00. > :34:04.women have had enough and lost patience, and women are supporting
:34:05. > :34:11.each other in different parties, saying, go for it, and that is
:34:12. > :34:17.healthy. Your leader could not do a reshuffle to promote women. There
:34:18. > :34:20.are very few. Ken Clarke, in his retirement interview, said the
:34:21. > :34:25.Conservative Party should go for all women short lists. Nick Clegg has
:34:26. > :34:28.said the same about the Lib Dems. I think this is actually quite a
:34:29. > :34:33.moment for a push in all parties to do something about this. It is a
:34:34. > :34:37.problem which Labour has successfully addressed. Firstly, I
:34:38. > :34:43.have long been in favour of the Conservatives having all women short
:34:44. > :34:49.lists, at least until the number of women... As a temporary measure,
:34:50. > :34:54.right. I was quite struck when Patrick McLoughlin told me that he
:34:55. > :34:57.thought the 2010 election was outstanding in terms of the most
:34:58. > :35:01.talented generation of new politicians he had ever set eyes on.
:35:02. > :35:09.That is true on both sides of the house. He meant that. When I lament
:35:10. > :35:12.the departure of Michael Gove, and also Owen Paterson going, it is not
:35:13. > :35:17.because the people coming in are not worthy of being promoted. I think
:35:18. > :35:24.the wrong choice has been made about who is going and the reasons. I
:35:25. > :35:28.think you can have a windowdressing focused reshuffle and also be
:35:29. > :35:31.fortunate that the women you are promoting our incredibly impressive.
:35:32. > :35:34.There is no doubt that the women in Cabinet deserve to be there. But I
:35:35. > :35:38.am not sure whether that was the starting point. He may have been
:35:39. > :35:43.casting around for women to tick boxes but found they were fantastic
:35:44. > :35:48.anyway, in which case he is very lucky. You could ask why did it take
:35:49. > :35:54.him so long? It has been clear for a while that there were a number of
:35:55. > :35:57.talented Tory women. He did not want to many reshuffles, wanted to let
:35:58. > :36:02.people do the job for four years and that is right. He sacked Damian
:36:03. > :36:06.Green, down in the middle order batting. I was surprised. And the
:36:07. > :36:15.significance of Dominic Grieve, which suggests there will be a
:36:16. > :36:17.push. Is at 27 or 30 people allowed in the Cabinet? It underlies that
:36:18. > :36:25.the Cabinet can have no purpose whatsoever. No meeting of that size
:36:26. > :36:29.can decide anything. They had to add some extra wood to the table to take
:36:30. > :36:30.all of them. It shows that the Tory belief in limited government is
:36:31. > :36:39.really happening. Now, heart-throb Harry Styles
:36:40. > :36:42.was forced to issue a statement this week, denying reports that
:36:43. > :36:44.he's eyeing-up a solo career. The news was greeted with intense
:36:45. > :36:47.interest here at This Week. Alan suggested Harry might consider
:36:48. > :36:49.experimenting with Michael couldn't stop crying
:36:50. > :36:52.into his One Direction pillow case. When you quit the band and think
:36:53. > :36:57.you're going to be a solo superstar, Or worse, junior spokesman
:36:58. > :37:03.in the shadow public health team. But that's exactly why we've decided
:37:04. > :37:34.to put "knowing when to quit" He has played with dozens of famous
:37:35. > :37:38.musicians and enjoyed a remarkable career spanning decades. No matter
:37:39. > :37:41.what life throws at Ginger Baker, the legendary drummer keeps on
:37:42. > :37:47.rolling, keeping time, time and again. But not everyone has such
:37:48. > :37:50.injuries. William Hague is clearly tired of hanging out with Angelina
:37:51. > :37:55.Jolie and announced he is leaving the Foreign Office this week and
:37:56. > :37:59.Parliament next year. He says it is just time to go. I don't feel very
:38:00. > :38:05.old but it is nearly 20 years since I first joined the Cabinet, nearly
:38:06. > :38:11.40 years since I started being a political activist. How important is
:38:12. > :38:16.knowing when to quit? Phil Scolari has had his fill of Brazil, quitting
:38:17. > :38:20.as manager after the hosts failed to win the World Cup. Given their
:38:21. > :38:24.humiliating Exeter, surely it is better to jump before being given
:38:25. > :38:31.the boot. Something Elizabeth Butler Sloss agreed with. But her departure
:38:32. > :38:35.leaves the abuse enquiry without a chair, or terms of reference. And
:38:36. > :38:40.leaves the Home Secretary were a headache. Is it better to quit when
:38:41. > :38:44.you are ahead or keep pushing yourself? Should some of us just
:38:45. > :39:03.pack it in to retain some semblance of dignity? Ginger Baker is with
:39:04. > :39:07.us. Welcome. Did you retire at one stage and you are now coming back?
:39:08. > :39:18.You quit and you have decided not to quit. Circumstances. What are they?
:39:19. > :39:26.Disasters. You need the money? Well, yes, I guess, one has to live. What
:39:27. > :39:33.has it been like coming back? What? Well, what I am doing now is the
:39:34. > :39:40.best thing I have ever done. People keep saying cream, but that was 50
:39:41. > :39:45.years ago and what I'm doing now is far better than cream. The write-ups
:39:46. > :39:54.we have had our extraordinary, and one of them concluded by saying, I
:39:55. > :39:58.would rather hear more of them than another cream reunion. Which I
:39:59. > :40:03.totally agree with. And you are enjoying playing the drums and being
:40:04. > :40:09.in a band again. It is my band. I am not being in a
:40:10. > :40:17.band, I am the boss. You had a band before, Ginger Baker's air force. I
:40:18. > :40:21.had cream, too, that was my band. Everybody seems to think it was
:40:22. > :40:25.Eric's band because he plays the guitar. We always think the one in
:40:26. > :40:33.the front. The drama never gets the credit. Well, what we are doing now,
:40:34. > :40:41.people want to dance to it, everything we do. So you have no
:40:42. > :40:51.desire to quit. Well, I will go on as long as I can. Unlike these two,
:40:52. > :40:56.who are way past it. Here's an MP. I don't speak to them, they are
:40:57. > :41:04.crooks. You took a conscious decision to quit, didn't you? To
:41:05. > :41:08.quit? As apolitical career. To quit one thing and go on to another. If
:41:09. > :41:12.you feel you can do something else better, you should do so. I think it
:41:13. > :41:18.is the quality of what you do that should be the determinant. A big
:41:19. > :41:21.decision, because like many politicians, your whole career from
:41:22. > :41:28.university on wood had been geared to a political career. So it is a
:41:29. > :41:32.big wrench to quit and go in a different direction. I was fortunate
:41:33. > :41:38.because I was first wrenched by the people, so I had no choice about it
:41:39. > :41:43.the first time round, so I knew I could survive outside the political
:41:44. > :41:48.sphere. The time I decided to leave, it was not a difficult
:41:49. > :41:51.decision because I knew I could survive outside. You have not quit
:41:52. > :41:59.politics but you have kind of quit of your own volition, quit the front
:42:00. > :42:04.bench. If I was in a rock band I would be carrying on. But there is
:42:05. > :42:08.also whether the audience is still there for you. Michael, similar to
:42:09. > :42:13.William Hague, once you have held a top job and been through that, you
:42:14. > :42:17.kind of get it out of your system. Maybe you think, what is the point
:42:18. > :42:22.of hanging around? For me, I was only on the front bench since I came
:42:23. > :42:25.in and being a backbencher again, it is the first time I have had a
:42:26. > :42:40.chance to experience it and I enjoy it. Are there people who saw you in
:42:41. > :42:52.cap next cream, and air force? Some people are old, some are young. It
:42:53. > :43:05.is a mix. It is growing. We just did a tour and sold out everywhere. You
:43:06. > :43:10.are on tour in Britain? Not now, no. I am on a rest period. We are going
:43:11. > :43:15.to have a rest period, too. Ginger Baker, thank you.
:43:16. > :43:17.That's your lot for tonight folks, and for this series.
:43:18. > :43:19.We'll be back in September with our live audience
:43:20. > :43:22.show in Edinburgh, and even more expert analysis on the Scottish
:43:23. > :43:25.But we leave you tonight with another old joke.
:43:26. > :43:28.What do you call someone who hangs around with musicians?
:43:29. > :43:31.Nighty-night, don't let the man who taught Ginger
:43:32. > :44:32.Dad! ..is when people don't do what they're told.