:00:15. > :00:16.Tonight on This Week, Islamic extremists strike
:00:17. > :00:23.in the heart of Paris, murdering 129, injuring even more.
:00:24. > :00:28.We reflect on the impact here, and around the world.
:00:29. > :00:30.Counter-terrorism expert and former top soldier, Colonel
:00:31. > :00:42.Richard Kemp, thinks bombing Islamic State doesn't go far enough.
:00:43. > :00:48.Make no mistake, we are at war, and whether we like it or not, that
:00:49. > :00:50.means boots on the ground in Iraq and in Syria.
:00:51. > :00:52.Prime Minister, David Cameron and Labour Leader,
:00:53. > :00:55.Jeremy Corbyn pay tribute at Wembley as England play France.
:00:56. > :00:58.But both are facing their own battles in Westminster.
:00:59. > :01:09.The BBC's John Pienaar, is in a French bistro in London.
:01:10. > :01:14.Since Paris, political struggles are breaking out on all sides, including
:01:15. > :01:16.the Labour Party where Jeremy Corbyn is more and more in conflict, mostly
:01:17. > :01:18.with his own side. And, star of hit TV sit-com, Citizen
:01:19. > :01:22.Khan actor and writer Adil Ray joins us to discuss the representation
:01:23. > :01:34.of Islam in the media. I guess the key thing is you have to
:01:35. > :01:37.be able to laugh at yourself. Why else would I agree to come on This
:01:38. > :01:46.Week? A week in which a bunch
:01:47. > :01:56.of loser jihadists slaughtered 129 innocents in Paris to prove
:01:57. > :02:01.the future belongs to them, rather France, the country of Descartes,
:02:02. > :02:16.Boulez, Monet, Sartre, Rousseau, Camus, Renoir, Berlioz, Cezanne,
:02:17. > :02:18.Gaugin, Hugo, Voltaire, Matisse, Debussy, Ravel, Saint-Saens, Bizet,
:02:19. > :02:20.Satie, Pasteur, Moliere, Camus, Franck, Zola, Balzac, Poulenc,
:02:21. > :02:22.cutting-edge science, world-class medicine, fearsome security forces,
:02:23. > :02:24.nuclear power, Coco Chanel, Chateau Lafite, Coq au Vin, Daft
:02:25. > :02:27.Punk, Zizou Zidane, Juliet Binoche, Beheadings, crucifixions,
:02:28. > :02:51.amputations, slavery, mass murder, mediaeval squalor,
:02:52. > :02:55.and a death-cult barbarity that Well, IS, or Daesh, or Isis or Isil
:02:56. > :03:02.or whatever name you're going by - I'm sticking with IS, as in Islamist
:03:03. > :03:07.Scumbags - I think the outcome is Whatever atrocities you're currently
:03:08. > :03:13.capable of committing, In 1,000 years' time Paris, that
:03:14. > :03:21.glorious City of Lights, will still be shining bright, as will every
:03:22. > :03:26.other city like it while you will be as dust along with the ragbag of
:03:27. > :03:31.fascists, Nazis and Stalinists that have previously dared to challenge
:03:32. > :03:37.our democracy and failed. Speaking of those who couldn't tell
:03:38. > :03:39.their Chateau Latour from their Blue Nun, I'm joined on
:03:40. > :03:43.the sofa tonight by a two-fingered Think of them as the 'eff' and the
:03:44. > :03:50.'off' of late-night political chat. I speak, of course, of #fourpercent
:03:51. > :03:56.Liz 'miserables' Kendall... And #sadmanonaTGV Michael
:03:57. > :04:11.'choo choo' Portillo. Your moment related to the terrible
:04:12. > :04:15.events in Paris and the aftermath? It is almost invidious to choose a
:04:16. > :04:19.moment because the suffering of so many people has been so intense. One
:04:20. > :04:24.moment that was described and struck me was a lady at the rock concert
:04:25. > :04:28.who fell under a man who had been murdered, I think a large, heavy
:04:29. > :04:31.man, and who lay there for about the next two hours listening to others
:04:32. > :04:36.in the concert hall being shot and listening to explosions, and aware
:04:37. > :04:39.that they were going round checking on who was dead and who was
:04:40. > :04:46.attending to the dead. She was pretending to be dead, and yet she
:04:47. > :04:53.survived. Unimaginable to go through such experience. The response of the
:04:54. > :04:58.French police and the French forces, the numbers they were able
:04:59. > :05:03.to deploy, the swiftness and determination of their response and
:05:04. > :05:08.sheer bravery. I know some people who work in the French police, and
:05:09. > :05:14.their bravery, to me, and what they have to face and go through is
:05:15. > :05:18.something that really I have found for some this week. I think the
:05:19. > :05:20.French people would probably agree. Now, in response to Friday's mass
:05:21. > :05:23.murder in Paris, the French launched further air strikes on the Islamic
:05:24. > :05:26.State stronghold of Raqqa in Syria. President Hollande says
:05:27. > :05:29.his country is at war and vowed to In Britain the question of how to
:05:30. > :05:33.eradicate the threat is proving controversial and debate rages over
:05:34. > :05:35.whether we should bomb Islamic State But would further air
:05:36. > :05:41.strikes be enough? Our former Commander in Afghanistan,
:05:42. > :05:45.and expert on counter-insurgency, Colonel Richard Kemp doesn't think
:05:46. > :05:48.so. In the wake of the attacks in Paris
:05:49. > :06:08.last Friday, the West is left with a choice. We can either stand and
:06:09. > :06:19.fight or we can roll over and let As Manuel Valze,
:06:20. > :06:24.the French Prime Minister said this weekend, we have been hit by
:06:25. > :06:27.an act of war organised methodically The faint-hearted, fearful of
:06:28. > :06:38.further jihadist attacks, advocate appeasing the Islamic State,
:06:39. > :06:40.but that will not stop the radicals This is no time for fear,
:06:41. > :06:52.Islamic State must be crushed. France was right to order immediate
:06:53. > :06:55.retaliatory air strikes against the Islamic State in Syria,
:06:56. > :07:01.and now is the time for concerted But in the entirety
:07:02. > :07:13.of military history, air power alone has never been enough to defeat
:07:14. > :07:16.military forces that hold ground. We need boots on the ground in Iraq
:07:17. > :07:26.and in Syria. Yes, there will be a cost,
:07:27. > :07:29.probably in the form of civilian casualties, military deaths and
:07:30. > :07:37.the provocation of further attacks. We allow
:07:38. > :07:43.the Islamic State to flourish We also need to take decisive action
:07:44. > :07:50.at home where opinion polls show frightening levels of support
:07:51. > :07:53.for the Islamic State Anybody who leaves to fight
:07:54. > :08:02.for the Islamic State in Syria or Iraq should not be
:08:03. > :08:08.permitted to come back home. And anybody who is not a citizen
:08:09. > :08:11.of the UK who represents a threat These measures may sound Draconian,
:08:12. > :08:23.but in the face of blood lust and subjugation,
:08:24. > :08:27.the cause is worth the casualties. I would prefer to see decisive
:08:28. > :08:30.action than innocent men, women and children dying bleeding
:08:31. > :08:38.in our streets. And from toy soldiers to our Dad's
:08:39. > :08:54.army here in Westminster, Before we come to the points in your
:08:55. > :09:00.film, you are a counter-terrorism expert. Has there been a serious
:09:01. > :09:08.failure of French intelligence? Were you saying I was Dad's Army? I think
:09:09. > :09:13.there has been a failure of security and I don't know what you attributed
:09:14. > :09:19.it to. You have to look at position of France as a nation, with open
:09:20. > :09:25.borders all around it. And lots of countries all around. Exactly. We
:09:26. > :09:28.are fortunate in that we have maintained the control of our
:09:29. > :09:31.borders. The French have not. People are moving in and out with impunity.
:09:32. > :09:38.That is one of the biggest problems. One of the main issues is
:09:39. > :09:41.the fact that there are so many targets in France for French police
:09:42. > :09:45.and intelligence services to handle. There are thousands of people
:09:46. > :09:48.involved in radical activity, many hundreds of which have been out to
:09:49. > :09:53.fight in Iraq and Syria and have come home very dangerous people.
:09:54. > :09:57.Battle hardened. They have blood on their hands, have taken part in
:09:58. > :10:02.killing. Once they have done that, it is much easier for them to kill
:10:03. > :10:08.again, as we saw on Friday. It did seem surprising that the ringleader,
:10:09. > :10:11.Abdelhamid Abaaoud was a known terrorist, subject to an
:10:12. > :10:15.international arrest warrant, yet able to move easily between Syria,
:10:16. > :10:19.France and Belgium. I know it is hard for intelligence forces, but
:10:20. > :10:24.that has to be filed under failure. I agree, but more a failure of the
:10:25. > :10:26.government and intelligence services. The government needs to
:10:27. > :10:33.close borders and control movement in and out. Sheng and should be
:10:34. > :10:37.gone? It should, I think. There are lessons to be learned by the police
:10:38. > :10:40.and intelligence services in coordinating between different
:10:41. > :10:45.countries but my experience of French intelligence is that they are
:10:46. > :10:49.extremely effective. Like everyone else, they make errors because
:10:50. > :10:53.intelligence is far from an exact science. Michael, is Richard Kemp
:10:54. > :10:58.right when he says where attacks alone have never been enough to
:10:59. > :10:59.defeat those who hold the ground, so to defeat IS, we boots on the
:11:00. > :11:07.ground? Undoubtedly you need some boots on
:11:08. > :11:12.ground. We have to make an accord with the Russians. Richard Kemp
:11:13. > :11:16.mentioned NATO but it has to be beyond NATO. If we were able to deal
:11:17. > :11:20.with Stalin during the war, I don't see why we can't deal with Putin
:11:21. > :11:24.now. Having established a coalition, then I think we need to look at what
:11:25. > :11:28.our resources are. I mean, there are people fighting on the ground.
:11:29. > :11:32.There's Assad's army fighting on the ground, there are Kurds fighting on
:11:33. > :11:36.the ground, I think we need to assess what their capabilities are.
:11:37. > :11:39.There's the Iraqi army to some extent? I think the present
:11:40. > :11:43.situation clearly is one in which hundreds of people are moving
:11:44. > :11:49.between the United Kingdom and other EU countries and Syria and coming
:11:50. > :11:53.back battle-hardened as colonel Kemp describes it and therefore represent
:11:54. > :11:57.a threat and so it's our duty to see whether we can close down the Syrian
:11:58. > :12:02.situation. All of this is pie on the sky because it seems to me there is
:12:03. > :12:05.no prospect of President Obama participating in an operation which
:12:06. > :12:08.involves allies boots on the ground so I fear for the moment that we are
:12:09. > :12:13.dreaming about these situations. I think I would say in the first
:12:14. > :12:17.instance, let us see what NATO plus Russia, plus Kurds, plus Assad plus
:12:18. > :12:21.the others can put together. I think Michael is right about the need to
:12:22. > :12:26.have an accord with Russia because Russia is now calling the shots in
:12:27. > :12:31.Syria. We couldn't possibly deploy military forces into Syria to attack
:12:32. > :12:35.the Islamic state wherever the forces come from without
:12:36. > :12:41.coordinating with Russia. What is your response Liz? Ultimately, I
:12:42. > :12:45.agree that ground forces may be required, the question though is
:12:46. > :12:50.whether that can be provided by countries in the region and I think
:12:51. > :12:54.that has got to be part of the thinking, certainly that the Prime
:12:55. > :12:59.Minister does when he presents a strategy to Parliament, as he has
:13:00. > :13:05.said he'll do. The problem is, it's difficult to find out who in the
:13:06. > :13:07.region would be prepared to provide groundsportses, they are providing
:13:08. > :13:13.air cover at the moment? That is right. We have seen what some
:13:14. > :13:18.Kurdish forces are able to do with air cover. Whether their role can be
:13:19. > :13:22.expanded more broadly I think is open to question. But really a
:13:23. > :13:26.long-term solution I think you are right ultimately ground forces will
:13:27. > :13:33.be needed, but I don't see these coming from the UK or the US. Even
:13:34. > :13:42.if you are right that you need to put boots on the ground, after Iraq
:13:43. > :13:47.and Afghanistan, there's no political will to do that? And it
:13:48. > :13:51.should be a last resort to deploy Western forces into Syria and Iraq
:13:52. > :13:57.in any more numbers than they are now. What we haven't explored fully
:13:58. > :14:06.enough is the use of some of the Sunni tribes in Syria and Iraq in a
:14:07. > :14:09.similar way to General Perreus did prior to Al-Qaeda. That is an area
:14:10. > :14:14.that should be one of the first options. I don't think the use of
:14:15. > :14:18.the uredz many one wider area... They have no appetite and the
:14:19. > :14:22.problem of the Sunni tribes is that the Shia-led government in Baghdad
:14:23. > :14:30.abandoned them, didn't treat them well? And that has to be addressed.
:14:31. > :14:33.In Syria, the same kind of tribal structures exists across the border.
:14:34. > :14:37.Those would be the perfect people to do it if it could be arranged and
:14:38. > :14:42.orchestrated. The next option, if that the is not possible is at least
:14:43. > :14:46.limited but very severe hit-and-run operations by western forces if
:14:47. > :14:51.necessary. To degrade their command and control
:14:52. > :14:55.of supply lines? Yes, I don't think we should be in the business of
:14:56. > :14:59.deploying massive forces to hold ground and to control the country. I
:15:00. > :15:03.think the problem is if we don't deal with Islamic state now, is not
:15:04. > :15:06.just what they are doing to people in the region, not just the fact
:15:07. > :15:10.they are sending out groups to attack us in Paris and London, it's
:15:11. > :15:14.also the inspiration they are giving to other extremists around the
:15:15. > :15:18.world. If they are not shown to the fee feetable, if they continue to
:15:19. > :15:21.show to be supermen, then that inspiration is going to get even
:15:22. > :15:25.worse and can become a much bigger problem. Should the Prime Minister
:15:26. > :15:31.go ahead and order bombing raids without a vote in the Commons?
:15:32. > :15:33.Constitutionally he doesn't need it, maybe be subject to a vote of
:15:34. > :15:38.confidence, but if he believes it's the right thing to do, if that is
:15:39. > :15:41.what he says, shouldn't he do that and deal with the consequences of a
:15:42. > :15:46.vote of confidence? Right now because of what's happened in Paris
:15:47. > :15:50.and listening for instance to the sort of things Liz says and other
:15:51. > :15:54.people and even listening to what Nicola Sturgeon's said, I think he
:15:55. > :15:58.feels that he has a chance of winning the vote if he makes a
:15:59. > :16:01.proper explanation in the House of Commons. That should certainly be
:16:02. > :16:05.his first port of call. I think he will be in some difficulty if he
:16:06. > :16:08.goes ahead without a vote in the Commons, if only because he's
:16:09. > :16:13.pledged again and again that the vote in the Commons for him would be
:16:14. > :16:17.decisive. I might say that, whether the
:16:18. > :16:21.British participate in the air raids or not seems to me to make no
:16:22. > :16:24.military difference but it makes a big psychological difference. The
:16:25. > :16:28.reason the Prime Minister wants to participate is he feels he must be
:16:29. > :16:33.alongside allies, the French and the Americans in particular and, as they
:16:34. > :16:38.might become our allies in due course, the Russians too. If the
:16:39. > :16:43.Prime Minister gives a credible case for extending British bombing into
:16:44. > :16:47.Syria, would you vote for it, Liz? If it shows it's part of a wider
:16:48. > :16:52.strategy, it's a commitment to some kind of Road Map to a political
:16:53. > :16:56.settlement, humanitarian aid and crucially a real effort on
:16:57. > :17:01.reconstruction which was the lesson we learned from Iraq, yes.
:17:02. > :17:04.Are you confident that the West, with what allies it has in the
:17:05. > :17:11.region, will step up to the plate here? Mr Hollande is trying to put
:17:12. > :17:13.together a grand coalition, going to Washington, Moscow, not sure he's
:17:14. > :17:17.coming to London. Are you confident this will be dealt with, because it
:17:18. > :17:22.would seem to me that Islamic state, in control of Iraq and Syria, with
:17:23. > :17:27.the oil and resources that has parts of it, is a much bigger threat than
:17:28. > :17:35.Al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan? Absolutesly. I'm far from confident
:17:36. > :17:42.we'll step up. President Obama has no appetite to engage in this fight
:17:43. > :17:46.with US military forces. He's stepped up the air attacks though?
:17:47. > :17:51.Still pretty token though, it's half hearted, it's not done what it needs
:17:52. > :17:55.to have done and, even if it's intensified much greater than it is
:17:56. > :18:02.at present, I still don't believe air attacks alone with going to deal
:18:03. > :18:07.with Islamic state. There has to be preferly ground it's sportses but
:18:08. > :18:12.backed up. -- ground forces. Now it's late - Ken Livingstone
:18:13. > :18:15.late - which means we unreservedly apologise for insulting your
:18:16. > :18:17.intelligence with tonight's show. But just like Ken,
:18:18. > :18:33.if you think we actually mean it, And don't forget,
:18:34. > :18:43.if you'd like to scrawl your digital always have a home on The Twitter,
:18:44. > :18:46.The Fleecebook, and Gordon Brown's Now, what could be more French than
:18:47. > :18:52.defying terrorism On Tuesday night, with
:18:53. > :18:59.the city still in shock, Parisians did just that, as they flocked to
:19:00. > :19:02.local restaurants in a uniquely It was all part of a social media
:19:03. > :19:07.campaign called Tous Au Bistrot to show that the terrorists
:19:08. > :19:11.hadn't changed their way of life. So without much persuading,
:19:12. > :19:15.we did our bit, and sent the BBC's John Pienaar down to London's
:19:16. > :19:18.oldest French restaurant, Mon Plaisir in Covent Garden, for our
:19:19. > :19:22.own little display of solidarity. This is his roundup
:19:23. > :19:39.of the political week. OK, there are more ways of showing
:19:40. > :19:43.solidarity with our French neighbours than just having lunch,
:19:44. > :19:46.but hey, we are all Parisian now, and that means loving life, loving
:19:47. > :19:49.good food and wine, loving freedom. And just now it also means we are
:19:50. > :19:55.defiant, and just a bit afraid. Just one sixth of us think bombing
:19:56. > :20:02.the fanatics in Syria will make us Today, another says three out
:20:03. > :20:08.of four of us want to do it anyway. When the terrorists attacked that
:20:09. > :20:11.theatre and those restaurants, Carrying on
:20:12. > :20:25.as normal is one way to show David Cameron has wanted to strike
:20:26. > :20:34.at Isil, wherever they are, for months, and
:20:35. > :20:38.since Paris the mood has changed. France and
:20:39. > :20:41.the USA want Britain more involved. Two years ago,
:20:42. > :20:48.Cameron wanted to bomb in Syria. This time, he is forcing
:20:49. > :20:54.the pace towards a vote that he We face a direct
:20:55. > :20:58.and growing threat to our country and we need to deal with it,
:20:59. > :21:02.not just in Iraq but in Syria too. I've always said there is
:21:03. > :21:05.a strong case for us doing so. Our allies are asking us to do this,
:21:06. > :21:08.and the case for doing so has only grown stronger
:21:09. > :21:11.after the Paris attacks. At the present time,
:21:12. > :21:15.the issue of the bombing of Syria does not seem to me to be
:21:16. > :21:19.the right way forward on this. There's another reason
:21:20. > :21:30.David Cameron's looking more More and more Labour MPs are finding
:21:31. > :21:38.more and more reasons to say, When he told the BBC didn't like
:21:39. > :21:44.the idea of shoot to kill against One Shadow Cabinet minister told me,
:21:45. > :21:52."It's as if Jeremy lives on another Another, publicly,
:21:53. > :21:58.put it a bit more diplomatically. In those very difficult
:21:59. > :22:03.circumstances, where there is an immediate threat to life, you are
:22:04. > :22:06.trying to stop more people being killed, it is right, within our
:22:07. > :22:10.procedures, to use lethal force in order to protect those who were
:22:11. > :22:13.cowering on the floor of that concert hall, and I think
:22:14. > :22:17.that would be widely supported. If he thought that,
:22:18. > :22:20.why didn't he say it? Relations between Jeremy Corbyn
:22:21. > :22:27.and so many of his MPs have gone They agree to disagree on just
:22:28. > :22:31.about everything, And when he appointed Ken
:22:32. > :22:38.Livingstone to help oversee defence Then Ken Livingstone
:22:39. > :22:42.said one pro-Trident MP It turned out he had a history
:22:43. > :22:48.of depression. You could see he would have
:22:49. > :22:50.to say sorry in the end. Well, I haven't been in Parliament
:22:51. > :22:55.for 15 years, so I've no idea But it's completely unacceptable
:22:56. > :23:00.for a Labour MP to attack Jeremy Corbyn's appointments
:23:01. > :23:03.in this abusive way. When someone was rude to you,
:23:04. > :23:10.you were rude back to them. Well, I'm from south London
:23:11. > :23:13.and we're not all rude. Not even all Millwall fans,
:23:14. > :23:17.who like to say, "No one likes us, I wonder if they sing that in
:23:18. > :23:23.Jeremy Corbyn's office Terrine de campagne,
:23:24. > :23:28.s'il vous plait. George Osborne has one thing in
:23:29. > :23:36.common with Jeremy Corbyn, just one. They would both quite
:23:37. > :23:39.like to be Prime Minister. Just now, more people probably think
:23:40. > :23:43.George Osborne has more of a chance, including him, as he plans strategy
:23:44. > :23:45.on just about everything, Isil are already using
:23:46. > :23:51.the internet for hideous propaganda purposes, for radicalisation,
:23:52. > :23:55.for operational planning, too. They have not so far been able to
:23:56. > :23:58.use it to kill people by attacking our infrastructure
:23:59. > :24:02.through cyber attack. They do not yet have
:24:03. > :24:06.that capability. So, more money for security,
:24:07. > :24:13.which sounds popular. But that also means more cuts,
:24:14. > :24:16.which means trouble. Osborne has to square colleagues
:24:17. > :24:20.like Theresa May, who also And she won't take cuts to
:24:21. > :24:25.police budgets quietly. Oh, and the Leader of
:24:26. > :24:28.the Opposition's on the case, too. Will he be able to tell us
:24:29. > :24:32.whether or not this community policing and other police budgets
:24:33. > :24:34.are protected or not As well as wanting resources, the
:24:35. > :24:42.police want the appropriate powers. And hasn't it come to something
:24:43. > :24:47.when the leader of Her Majesty's opposition thinks that the police,
:24:48. > :24:52.when confronted by a Kalashnikov-waving terrorist, isn't
:24:53. > :24:56.sure what the reaction should be? Well,
:24:57. > :25:00.they can all slug it out next week. I've got some solidarity to share,
:25:01. > :25:03.which may be easier than getting MPs to stand shoulder to shoulder
:25:04. > :25:07.on where to bomb Isil, and a lot easier than getting
:25:08. > :25:12.a peace plan together for Syria. If only I could remember
:25:13. > :25:20.the words to the Marseillaise. And from Mon Plaisir restaurant
:25:21. > :25:22.in Covent Garden to our own little bistro here in the
:25:23. > :25:36.heart of Westminster, we're joined Is it your view that when things,
:25:37. > :25:39.like what happened in Paris last weekend, take place, that that's
:25:40. > :25:45.Western foreign policy largely to blame? I don't know about largely,
:25:46. > :25:50.it's partly to blame. It comes out of a Swatch of alienation, and in
:25:51. > :25:55.France, there are many elements to it that don't exist at least yet
:25:56. > :26:01.here. France has a very aggressively secular policy banning certain modes
:26:02. > :26:06.of Islamic dress and so on, so there are particular grievances. Also the
:26:07. > :26:12.socioeconomic position of Muslims and other minorities in France
:26:13. > :26:17.who're kind of banished to the real slums, worse slums than we have
:26:18. > :26:21.here. These are all places where these grievances fester, but of
:26:22. > :26:28.course, there isn't any doubt that France's long history as an imperial
:26:29. > :26:32.power, our history more recently in Iraq and most of our recent
:26:33. > :26:37.histories in Iraq and Lynn ya, for example, is in the mix. Is the
:26:38. > :26:40.Russian foreign policy to blame? Mr Lavrov is the most accomplished
:26:41. > :26:44.diplomat in the world today. I think most people in their private moments
:26:45. > :26:52.would agree with that. I agreed with Michael in every particular. We need
:26:53. > :26:57.to make a coalition with Russia and deal a decisive series of blows to
:26:58. > :27:03.this death cult and indeed I said this on your programme exactly one
:27:04. > :27:08.year ago. I remember. And... What would that coalition consist of the
:27:09. > :27:13.we were to build a Western-Russian coalition?
:27:14. > :27:18.People talk about a ground war, there is already one and people have
:27:19. > :27:22.been fighting it for most five years. That is why we have to
:27:23. > :27:29.support those that are fighting that ground war. That means Iraq, Syria
:27:30. > :27:34.and the Kurds, and the others can supply air power but they are not,
:27:35. > :27:39.as you put it correctly, going to send soldiers in. None of them,
:27:40. > :27:45.Saudis, Jordanians, none of them are going to send soldiers in. But the
:27:46. > :27:51.Syrian Army can do it themselves if we stop supplying the other side, if
:27:52. > :27:54.we stop the Saudis and the Turks either facilitating, or in the case
:27:55. > :28:00.of the Saudis, actually paying for the men and material that have been
:28:01. > :28:06.fighting this war for almost five years. Who are the Saudis paying?
:28:07. > :28:10.What they would call moderate fanatics, people who only eat half
:28:11. > :28:18.your heart, or cut half your head off. The local Al-Qaeda affiliate,
:28:19. > :28:22.as you well know. Insofar as there is any difference between these
:28:23. > :28:27.groups, Isis merely take the weapons and money off them, because they
:28:28. > :28:33.defect. What do you think of what George is saying? Well, I was quite
:28:34. > :28:36.pleased with much of what George said. I thought he would come from a
:28:37. > :28:40.rather different point of view, because when he got to the point of
:28:41. > :28:44.saying we need to deal a decisive blow, that is where he and I united.
:28:45. > :28:46.This question about to deal a decisive blow, that is where he and
:28:47. > :28:48.I united. This question about what extent petition or French foreign
:28:49. > :28:54.policy or Western foreign policy influences things, I think is a moot
:28:55. > :28:59.point. It is worth remembering that the worst atrocity of all, 9/11, was
:29:00. > :29:05.committed before Iraq, before Afghanistan. It was after a war in
:29:06. > :29:10.Kuwait, where we had expelled the Iraqis, at the wish of the Kuwaiti
:29:11. > :29:14.people and with the support of the Saudis and the Egyptians and the
:29:15. > :29:19.Syrians. It was hardly an anti-Muslim war. But all of that is
:29:20. > :29:22.pretty much water under the bridge and I dare say many Muslims think
:29:23. > :29:28.what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan is a source of
:29:29. > :29:32.grievance. However, what is in the mind of the terrorist goes well
:29:33. > :29:37.beyond that. It is actually about destroying our way of life. I would
:29:38. > :29:42.like to make a distinction between that and an excess tension threat. I
:29:43. > :29:46.think the word existential threat is being used loosely. It is true these
:29:47. > :29:50.people want to destroy us and if they were successful our existence
:29:51. > :29:54.would be in question, but they don't have the capability to destroy us.
:29:55. > :30:00.We have not lost as many Europeans in acts of terror yet as we lost on
:30:01. > :30:03.one day in New York. And an excess tension threat existed in this
:30:04. > :30:09.country during World War II, throughout the Cold War, and those
:30:10. > :30:12.are real existentialists threat. 50 million Europeans died in World War
:30:13. > :30:18.II and we could have been annihilated in the Cold War at any
:30:19. > :30:22.time. This is not of that order. Andrew, in his peerless thunder at
:30:23. > :30:27.the beginning of the show, Count opposed the achievements of French
:30:28. > :30:30.civilisation with a couple of bar owners from Belgium who came and
:30:31. > :30:35.shocked a lot of people who did not have guns and could not defend
:30:36. > :30:42.themselves. That is not an existentialists. This is a murder
:30:43. > :30:47.gang, a death cult. It consists of some thousands of people. We are
:30:48. > :30:53.millions. And don't forget this, the great majority of people killed
:30:54. > :30:56.Al-Qaeda and Isis have been Muslims. And the great majority of
:30:57. > :30:56.Al-Qaeda and Isis have been Muslims. fighting them in Syria are Sunni
:30:57. > :31:08.Muslims. fighting them in Syria are Sunni
:31:09. > :31:12.was a week when we should fighting them in Syria are Sunni
:31:13. > :31:17.believe, showing both solidarity with France and a focus on the
:31:18. > :31:20.safety of British citizens, and I don't think the leadership of our
:31:21. > :31:27.party rose to that challenge this week. It ended up being dominated
:31:28. > :31:33.with comments made that retrospectively had to be clarified,
:31:34. > :31:37.and ended in a kind of offensive comment that Ken Livingstone made. I
:31:38. > :31:41.believe it is not just bad for the Labour Party but for the country,
:31:42. > :31:46.which needs an effective opposition that questions, probes, pushes, and
:31:47. > :31:50.shows how we can help make the Government's responds the best that
:31:51. > :31:53.it can be, and I don't think we lived up to that this week. What do
:31:54. > :31:58.you make of Jeremy Corbyn's response? You would never confuse
:31:59. > :32:03.you make of Jeremy Corbyn's with a liberal, and I think that on
:32:04. > :32:07.these matters one has to be iron and steel heart. One has to say, if
:32:08. > :32:12.anyone comes here with guns and bombs, our police will shoot them
:32:13. > :32:20.down and stop them. There is no room for equivocation about that at all.
:32:21. > :32:25.Of course, a shoot to kill policy in general is a bad idea. That brings
:32:26. > :32:30.back thoughts of Northern Ireland. Indeed, all what Israel does in the
:32:31. > :32:36.occupied territories. Apart from being wrong, they don't work, they
:32:37. > :32:39.make more terrorists. But what the Labour leadership should do is to be
:32:40. > :32:44.absolutely clear that when it comes to the safety and defence of our
:32:45. > :32:48.people in our own island, our own streets, then the police will have
:32:49. > :32:52.the full backing of the political leadership to gun them down if
:32:53. > :32:56.necessary. I would shoot them myself with my own hands, I would pull the
:32:57. > :33:02.trigger myself, I would be happy to see them all dead in the street.
:33:03. > :33:08.These people are just about the most horrific group of people I have ever
:33:09. > :33:13.seen in my long political life. And I am damn sure I am not going to sit
:33:14. > :33:18.idly by while they are running around up and down Piccadilly with
:33:19. > :33:23.guns and bombs. Are you by any chance available to leave the Labour
:33:24. > :33:29.Party? Not at the moment! Has Mr Corbyn asked you to come back? No, I
:33:30. > :33:33.think he has quite a few problems on his hands internally and probably
:33:34. > :33:38.does not want to add to them. And what would I be going back to, the
:33:39. > :33:42.Labour Party of Jeremy Corbyn, or the Labour Party of some others,
:33:43. > :33:45.present company excepted, because I have absolute admiration for Liz
:33:46. > :33:51.Kendall, a person of principle and bravery. But the backstabbers who
:33:52. > :33:58.are constantly trying to undermine him from behind the Arras, to
:33:59. > :34:05.continue our French theme. Are you surprised that Mr Corbyn, in some of
:34:06. > :34:08.his appointments, most of his personal appointments, has not
:34:09. > :34:14.reached out more to the centre of the Labour Party? Is he trying to
:34:15. > :34:18.provoke a coup? I don't think it needs much provoking, it has been
:34:19. > :34:24.underway since that hour that he was declared, and most of the centrists,
:34:25. > :34:28.of course, the most competent ones, ruled themselves out of serving in
:34:29. > :34:36.the Labour cause, preferring the backbenchers. I think he made a big
:34:37. > :34:40.mistake appointing Hilary Benn as Shadow Foreign Secretary. He is now
:34:41. > :34:47.a sword of Damocles over the Corbyn leadership. And a former star,
:34:48. > :34:52.Michael's former so far partner, Diane Abbott, could easily have been
:34:53. > :34:55.given that job, a woman, a black woman, an experienced, long-standing
:34:56. > :35:00.parliamentarian and a key ally of his. She should have been given that
:35:01. > :35:05.job. We learned tonight that Theresa May is digging in against further
:35:06. > :35:09.cuts to the police, because we have the competence of spending review
:35:10. > :35:12.next week. That is a wise move in the current circumstances for a Tory
:35:13. > :35:18.Home Secretary, I would suggest, and a tough one for the Chancellor. You
:35:19. > :35:22.are probably right. It would be quite difficult for the Home
:35:23. > :35:25.Secretary to give way on police budgets just at the moment. Of
:35:26. > :35:28.course, in many of these discussions, what you spend on
:35:29. > :35:32.things is not really what counts, it is what you get out the other end,
:35:33. > :35:42.the effectiveness of what you spend. Even so, it is tough politics, I
:35:43. > :35:53.would say. 17,000 to the Interior Ministry has been added in France.
:35:54. > :35:57.Nonetheless, having been said... 5000 coppers are missing from London
:35:58. > :36:00.at a time when we need 15,000 more coppers on the streets in London and
:36:01. > :36:06.more of them armed in the centre of London. The French can do a lot more
:36:07. > :36:08.than we can. I have to stop. It is such an important issue but we have
:36:09. > :36:10.one final item. Thank you. Now, we represent a broad spectrum
:36:11. > :36:13.of views here on This Week. Michael has always kept a wary eye
:36:14. > :36:16.on his former Conservative comrades. Diane was always more than happy to
:36:17. > :36:19.roll her critical-eyes at the And now that Liz has kindly lost
:36:20. > :36:23.the leadership election in order to join us here on the sofa; she'll no
:36:24. > :36:26.doubt repay the favour to But when it comes to television,
:36:27. > :36:30.how do you navigate the tricky political waters of religion,
:36:31. > :36:32.in particular Islam, especially We're not sure but that's why we're
:36:33. > :36:35.putting representation I might even get
:36:36. > :36:56.my own parking space at the mosque. He's the dysfunctional dad who
:36:57. > :36:58.invites British Muslims to laugh Does the sitcom also provide
:36:59. > :37:05.an alternative Muslim narrative, a mainstream challenge to
:37:06. > :37:09.the extremist idealogy that lacks Sensitivities abound, representing
:37:10. > :37:15.religion can be a tricky business. An episode of EastEnders won
:37:16. > :37:23.plaudits this week when a young Muslim character told his girlfriend
:37:24. > :37:28.why the Koran to him means peace. That to me is what Islam is about -
:37:29. > :37:31.be kind to people, family What about the much-loved winner
:37:32. > :37:39.of this year's Bake Off? Nadya, a Great British inspiration
:37:40. > :37:43.who triumphed in the TV talent show. A proud mother of Bangladeshi
:37:44. > :37:46.origin, she says she isn't just Let's watch telly,
:37:47. > :37:52.Border Control is on, one It's certainly a broad church,
:37:53. > :38:01.telly, but when it comes to depicting religion, especially
:38:02. > :38:03.Islam, are we really doing enough to Those who worship at the altar
:38:04. > :38:25.of this week, take your pew. Welcome to the programme. Thank you
:38:26. > :38:31.very much. Was there a purpose behind Citizen Khan, about trying to
:38:32. > :38:36.change the view of Islam among ordinary British Muslims and
:38:37. > :38:41.non-Muslims? Not really. Essentially, I have a desire to do
:38:42. > :38:45.comedy. I wanted to do a British comedy. That bit succeeded. Some
:38:46. > :38:51.would disagree, but that is fine, too. As a by-product, it is
:38:52. > :38:55.fantastic... Comedy has the ability to humanise communities, and you are
:38:56. > :39:02.constantly looking for common traits, universality. Especially
:39:03. > :39:05.when you are on BBC One. If you get to a point when people can connect
:39:06. > :39:10.with a British Muslim Pakistani father, that is a good thing. So
:39:11. > :39:16.they laugh at the same things, the same concerns. Yes. Is there a
:39:17. > :39:20.difficulty at the moment in that over the decades Christians have got
:39:21. > :39:25.used to being the butt of jokes. Is that true of British Muslims? It's
:39:26. > :39:31.not, and I think that is probably one of the things. There isn't a
:39:32. > :39:36.history of British Muslim comedy, or Muslim comedy. There are comedies,
:39:37. > :39:39.even in places like Iraq. There is a satire show that satirises Isis.
:39:40. > :39:46.That happens, there is a history of it. But because it is a new and
:39:47. > :39:50.sensitive area, certain Muslims, a certain paranoia enters and they
:39:51. > :39:55.feel that maybe Citizen Khan is part of some sort of conspiracy to bring
:39:56. > :39:59.down Muslims, and it isn't. Have you had kickbacks, from sections of the
:40:00. > :40:03.non-Muslim community, why have we got to have a Muslim comedy, or from
:40:04. > :40:11.the Muslim community, why are we the butt of these jokes? I get it from
:40:12. > :40:15.both ends. I get bigots from the far right to complain and also from the
:40:16. > :40:19.far left to complain, which would be means I'm doing something right.
:40:20. > :40:26.Sometimes they are quite good enemies to have. I think so. Citizen
:40:27. > :40:33.Khan calls himself a community leader. In a sense, I saw that, and
:40:34. > :40:37.this is true of all communities, there are people who think they are
:40:38. > :40:40.speaking for everybody. And I have to be careful sitting here doing
:40:41. > :40:45.that very thing. The one thing connecting it to my faith was that I
:40:46. > :40:48.remember after the bombings in London and 9/11 I would see the
:40:49. > :40:53.local news station get the guy with the longest ear, place him in front
:40:54. > :41:01.of a mosque and ask about something 5000 miles away. -- the longest
:41:02. > :41:05.beard. I am urgently get back in the edit suite and say, he was amazing,
:41:06. > :41:09.but who was he? He is not a member of anything, let's think of a title
:41:10. > :41:14.for him. He was in the community, let's call him a community leader.
:41:15. > :41:21.That was Mr Khan. And he has a silly hat. When the script is being
:41:22. > :41:25.created are there times when you think, I had better not go there?
:41:26. > :41:32.That is a good joke but we probably should not do it? Not really. In all
:41:33. > :41:37.comedy, you have to have a character who is slightly monstrous, who says
:41:38. > :41:40.the things you don't want to say. We write a 30 minute show and the
:41:41. > :41:44.journey is that he does the wrong thing but in the end he does the
:41:45. > :41:50.right thing. So he has to be monstrous and we allow our character
:41:51. > :41:54.to have that voice. The show has created a very different image from
:41:55. > :42:00.what a lot of people would like to stigmatise and the rest of it, but
:42:01. > :42:06.Nadiya Hussein, that was quite an amazing and symbolic event. It was
:42:07. > :42:08.brilliant, one of those moments when you heard people on social media
:42:09. > :42:12.brilliant, one of those moments when saying the same thing, Muslim or
:42:13. > :42:17.non-Muslim, saying they felt proud to be
:42:18. > :42:20.non-Muslim, saying they felt proud That is fantastic. What I
:42:21. > :42:22.non-Muslim, saying they felt proud part of the counter narrative, that
:42:23. > :42:27.is important. Similar with Moeen Ali opening the batting for England,
:42:28. > :42:38.with a longer beard than Mr Khan. We could do with a few
:42:39. > :42:40.with a longer beard than Mr Khan. We Alis. All of that is positive. One
:42:41. > :42:44.in five of your constituents identify themselves as Muslims. With
:42:45. > :42:47.terrible events like this and people looking for someone to blame,
:42:48. > :42:49.overall should we be reasonably optimistic about the state of our
:42:50. > :42:52.relations, the position of optimistic about the state of our
:42:53. > :42:59.Muslim community in Britain, communities, because it is not one?
:43:00. > :43:02.People are really worried when events like last week happen,
:43:03. > :43:09.worried about what's going to happen to them, if attacks are going to
:43:10. > :43:11.happen back. That's why we need far more different various, an explosion
:43:12. > :43:15.of different representations more different various, an explosion
:43:16. > :43:19.the media, because that is life. And it is true.
:43:20. > :43:23.the media, because that is life. And thought. I would pick up that
:43:24. > :43:26.thought. For the moment, the lack of integration of the Muslim community
:43:27. > :43:32.is reflected in their lack of appearance in the media. And also by
:43:33. > :43:35.an unwillingness to tackle real issues. The issues we have been
:43:36. > :43:39.talking about this evening, radicalisation, whether kids are
:43:40. > :43:46.travelling to Syria, have these things been treated, for instance in
:43:47. > :43:50.drama on the BBC or ITV? I am not aware they have. There may be an
:43:51. > :43:55.opportunity there. How many shows how to run? There are five more and
:43:56. > :43:59.it is on tomorrow night at 7:30pm, one of the few times a Muslim will
:44:00. > :44:01.be on this week who is not a terrorist.
:44:02. > :44:04.That's your lot for tonight folks, but not for us, because it's
:44:05. > :44:07.Parliamentary Labour Party night at Lou Lou's and we're off to join
:44:08. > :44:11.in all the fun, whilst Diane Abbott writes a stack of Christmas Cards
:44:12. > :44:21.But we leave you tonight with a heavy sedative and proof -
:44:22. > :44:23.if proof were really needed - that the Labour movement really has
:44:24. > :44:29.Nighty night, don't let Comrade Corbyn's man-hole bite.
:44:30. > :44:33.I got this from my mother, an interest in the social history
:44:34. > :44:41.If you walk around and look at drain covers, you'll see in London, MWB,
:44:42. > :44:46.That gives you the age of it because the Metropolitan Board of Works
:44:47. > :44:50.If you look at Post Office telegraphs, that will tell you
:44:51. > :44:54.Look at LCC tramways, look at the same in Glasgow, in Edinburgh.
:44:55. > :45:00.So you see a history of public utilities in drain covers, and