07/01/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.Tonight on This Week, as the BBC's epic adaptation

:00:07. > :00:09.of War And Peace hits the small screen, we present

:00:10. > :00:17.you with our own cut-price version of Bored And Peace at Westminster.

:00:18. > :00:20.A mammoth tale of very little, as Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn's,

:00:21. > :00:24.shadow cabinet reshuffle goes on and on.

:00:25. > :00:33.The Spectator's Isabel Hardman is our fearless heroine.

:00:34. > :00:39.Labour is at war but the Tories are trying to engineer peace in their

:00:40. > :00:42.own party. How long before open hostilities break out?

:00:43. > :00:47.And even more disturbing images as the latest Islamic State video

:00:48. > :00:52.Trying to make sense of it, journalist Allan Hennessy,

:00:53. > :01:01.who grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John.

:01:02. > :01:08.Radicalisation is about people's feelings. British politicians need

:01:09. > :01:13.to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims in the UK, all we can

:01:14. > :01:16.expect to see many more new jihadi Johns.

:01:17. > :01:20.unfolds, we'll be joined by our own brooding TV prince.

:01:21. > :01:27.Broadcaster Adrian Chiles talks God and religion.

:01:28. > :01:34.However barren landscape, I always get a sense that God is everywhere.

:01:35. > :01:35.Even, possibly, a studio in Westminster.

:01:36. > :01:40.intrigue - just another edition of the BBC's epic political drama,

:01:41. > :01:51.Welcome to the first This Week of 2016, the show which rivets

:01:52. > :01:56.because it's the only way we can be sure they'll stay and watch.

:01:57. > :01:58.And the year has begun with the nation agog

:01:59. > :02:01.at a slow-motion shadow cabinet reshuffle, so protracted it makes

:02:02. > :02:04.War And Peace feel pacy and underwritten.

:02:05. > :02:08.And I'm talking about the 1000-page book, not the new BBC TV series.

:02:09. > :02:11.Yes, never has so little taken so long.

:02:12. > :02:14.Johnny Foreigner might be fretting about North Korean H-Bombs,

:02:15. > :02:17.the collapse of global stock markets and the Saudi-Iranian stand off

:02:18. > :02:24.But what need have we of such alien trivia when we have a ring-side seat

:02:25. > :02:28.at the home-grown spectacle of Labour politicians we've never

:02:29. > :02:33.heard of replacing ones we're not likely to hear of again?

:02:34. > :02:37.How we cheered when Jo Stevens got Justice.

:02:38. > :02:41.Clapped loudly when Andy McDonald took over Transport.

:02:42. > :02:44.And wept tears of joy when Fabian Hamilton,

:02:45. > :02:51.Giants, all of them, in a land of political pygmies.

:02:52. > :02:54.Legends in the making, at least in their own households.

:02:55. > :02:57.Meanwhile in a world far, far away from Planet Corbyn,

:02:58. > :03:01.Chancellor Boy George has morphed from Mr Micawber to Cassandra

:03:02. > :03:05.in under six weeks, binning talk of a land flowing with milk

:03:06. > :03:10.and honey for claims the economy is at "mission critical".

:03:11. > :03:15.Just what does Gidders know now that he didn't know at the time

:03:16. > :03:19.Answers on a postcard, please, because you only need a card

:03:20. > :03:26.Speaking of making it up as you go along,

:03:27. > :03:28.I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two British institutions

:03:29. > :03:30.loved by all, who've given selfless service

:03:31. > :03:34.and richly deserve their well-earned new year honours.

:03:35. > :03:37.Think of them as the Dame Barbara Windsor, and the Sir Lynton Crosby

:03:38. > :03:44.I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan "AJ" Johnson,

:03:45. > :03:53.and #sadmanonatrain Michael "Choo Choo" Portillo.

:03:54. > :04:03.Happy new year to you. Your moment of the week. Well, I read that since

:04:04. > :04:07.the momentous vote on bombing Syria, that actually RAF Typhoon 's and

:04:08. > :04:12.tornadoes have only flown three missions, which were all in the

:04:13. > :04:16.first five days. There has been no mission involving aircraft since

:04:17. > :04:21.December the 6th, and only one other mission on December the 25th, which

:04:22. > :04:24.was by a drone. When you think of the havoc this has wrought within

:04:25. > :04:30.the Labour Party, but also the way that the Government said this was

:04:31. > :04:35.about reading the anti-and how this was intensifying the focus against

:04:36. > :04:38.Isil infrastructure, it makes you feel we have been mighty misled

:04:39. > :04:46.about the importance of the whole thing. Much Ado About Nothing? Much

:04:47. > :04:51.ado. Mine is the most powerful man in the world reduced to tears,

:04:52. > :04:59.President Obama, who announced some pretty innocuous measures by

:05:00. > :05:03.executive action. On gun control. Three years ago, 20 kids and six

:05:04. > :05:09.teachers killed in a school in America and nothing has happened

:05:10. > :05:12.since. Tears of frustration. The speaker of the House of

:05:13. > :05:17.Representatives, Paul Ryan, tweeted that this amounted to intimidation,

:05:18. > :05:23.what Obama had said, these innocuous measures. Simply that if you buy a

:05:24. > :05:28.gun at gun fair you have to be a background check, as if you go to a

:05:29. > :05:33.shop to buy it. And few other minor measures, just to get something

:05:34. > :05:40.done. In this country, in the whole of last year, we introduced strict

:05:41. > :05:45.gun control is after Dunblane, 24 people were killed by gunshot. I

:05:46. > :05:49.think that includes suicide. 27 people in America were murdered on

:05:50. > :05:54.Christmas Day by gunshot. Yes, there is a difference in population, but

:05:55. > :05:58.not to that extent. You could see how frustrating it was for Obama,

:05:59. > :06:03.and I thought it was a very genuine moment, when the tears rolled. He

:06:04. > :06:07.cared. Sadness and frustration. I am told more people have died from guns

:06:08. > :06:09.in America than in all the wars that America has been involved in.

:06:10. > :06:12.Now, exactly a year on from the Charlie Hebdo attacks

:06:13. > :06:14.in Paris, and Islamic State is still doing its blood-soaked best

:06:15. > :06:17.to inspire fear in the West, though some think its latest video

:06:18. > :06:19.nasty is more a sign of weakness than strength,

:06:20. > :06:22.as it loses towns it only recently captured to the Iraqi and Kurdish

:06:23. > :06:25.armies, and suffers growing fatalities from the allied air

:06:26. > :06:28.The new video shows, inevitably, the cold-blooded execution of five

:06:29. > :06:31.local men, supposed to be spying for Britain, while a balaclava-clad

:06:32. > :06:32.jihadi with a British accent threatens, absurdly,

:06:33. > :06:36.The new Jihadi John is thought to be former bouncy-castle operator

:06:37. > :06:38.Siddhartha Dhar, yet another born-and-bred British extremist

:06:39. > :06:40.known to the security services, who skipped police bail and fled

:06:41. > :06:43.to Syria with his family, simply leaving the country on a bus

:06:44. > :06:46.There's evidence that disillusioned jihadis are deserting

:06:47. > :06:49.But there also seems to be a fresh supply

:06:50. > :06:54.Allan Hennessy grew up on the same estate as Jihadi John.

:06:55. > :07:11.This is the council estate I grew up on.

:07:12. > :07:14.Mohammed Emwazi and I were neighbours.

:07:15. > :07:16.We went to the same mosque and our mothers shopped

:07:17. > :07:21.But our lives went down very different paths.

:07:22. > :07:24.I am at Cambridge studying law and am a journalist.

:07:25. > :07:26.Mohammed Emwazi regrettably went to Syria and

:07:27. > :07:34.Emwazi wasn't the first disaffected British Muslim

:07:35. > :07:39.to go to Syria, and as we've seen this week, he won't be the last.

:07:40. > :07:42.Frederick Douglass said, "Where justice is denied,

:07:43. > :07:45.where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails,

:07:46. > :07:49.and where any one class of society is made to feel that society

:07:50. > :07:53.is an organised conspiracy to degrade,

:07:54. > :08:01.oppress and rob, neither persons nor property will be safe".

:08:02. > :08:05.Douglass may have been a 19th-century abolitionist,

:08:06. > :08:08.but he could have been writing about this very 21st-century

:08:09. > :08:15.council estate, and so many others like it.

:08:16. > :08:17.Unemployment, poor education and far too many British

:08:18. > :08:23.Muslims in prison creates a feeling of persecution.

:08:24. > :08:27.Throw into the mix post-7/7 Islamophobia brought

:08:28. > :08:32.about by the fear of terrorism, and you

:08:33. > :08:36.Until I went to university, I only knew seven

:08:37. > :08:41.Here, to live on the Mozart Estate was to live on a ghetto.

:08:42. > :08:53.Since Paris I have been on the receiving end

:08:54. > :09:01.I'm sick and tired of people giving me funny looks on the Circle

:09:02. > :09:06.Line when I'm just out to have a drink with my friends.

:09:07. > :09:09.It is this social disadvantage, suspicion and alienation

:09:10. > :09:12.which leaves so many vulnerable to political clerics

:09:13. > :09:21.These clerics will tell you that the system is designed

:09:22. > :09:25."They are against you because you are a Muslim.

:09:26. > :09:27.Follow us, join this pure, truer form of

:09:28. > :09:32.Islam and we will fight the system together".

:09:33. > :09:38.Radicalisation is about people's feelings.

:09:39. > :09:42.British politicians need to wise up to the reality of life for Muslims

:09:43. > :09:52.in the UK, or we can expect to see many more new Jihadi Johns.

:09:53. > :09:55.From the Mozart estate in Queen's Park to the mean streets

:09:56. > :10:00.of Westminster, Allan Hennessy joins us now.

:10:01. > :10:09.Welcome to the programme. You described Jihadi John as a

:10:10. > :10:19.disenfranchised it. In what way was he disenfranchised? Raina I think

:10:20. > :10:23.he, like many other people, as I said in the video, felt like the

:10:24. > :10:33.system was designed to screw him over. So many people have the vote

:10:34. > :10:40.Mozart estate, but the turnout on the Mozart estate is awful. That is

:10:41. > :10:44.up to them. Of course, but you have to question why people don't take

:10:45. > :10:48.advantage of political freedom. One other reason you gave was bad

:10:49. > :10:53.education and you contrast it in with you going to Cambridge. But

:10:54. > :10:59.Jihadi John went to university in London. The second jihadis a

:11:00. > :11:02.businessman. There was a study of 18 British Muslims implicated in

:11:03. > :11:07.terrorist attacks, eight had degrees in engineering or IT, four had

:11:08. > :11:15.degrees in science, pharmacy and maps, and one in humanities. That

:11:16. > :11:19.may be the case. It is the case. That is the case. But something I am

:11:20. > :11:29.keen to stress is that there is no one cause of radicalisation, as I

:11:30. > :11:32.said. It is a causation cocktail. And there are general trends, and of

:11:33. > :11:39.course we can identify those trends and use them to help us try to

:11:40. > :11:45.prevent radicalisation. I understand that but you did seem to imply that

:11:46. > :11:48.there was discrimination. I saw one place where you compare the

:11:49. > :11:54.situation of Muslims in this country to the situation of slavery in the

:11:55. > :11:58.South before the American civil war. The International Centre for the

:11:59. > :12:01.study of radicalisation at King's College London has concluded that

:12:02. > :12:06.radicalisation is not driven principally by poverty or social

:12:07. > :12:10.deprivation. The overwhelming majority who have gone to join

:12:11. > :12:17.Islamic State actually come from high achieving backgrounds. That is

:12:18. > :12:22.certainly not the case. That is only one piece of research. The Quilliam

:12:23. > :12:27.Foundation think tank has done similar research and found that

:12:28. > :12:32.poverty and socio- economic deprivation and institutional

:12:33. > :12:36.disadvantage does contribute to radicalisation. Of course it is not

:12:37. > :12:46.the only thing, of course it relies on the individual disposition. And

:12:47. > :12:51.on how they respond to feeling persecuted. Some people choose to

:12:52. > :12:55.channel their frustration by going into gang crime. Others will turn to

:12:56. > :13:05.drugs, others will turn to radical Islam. I am not here to say that the

:13:06. > :13:09.only reason people join Isis is because society has let them down.

:13:10. > :13:13.But the sooner we accept that is the case, the sooner we will be

:13:14. > :13:18.preventing people like Jihadi John and the so-called new Jihadi John.

:13:19. > :13:23.Of course there are numerous causes of radicalisation, but to emphasise

:13:24. > :13:30.poverty or deprivation would seem to me to be a slur on poor Muslims. If

:13:31. > :13:33.King's College London is not a good enough study, a University of

:13:34. > :13:37.Cambridge study which has been used by the British Council found that

:13:38. > :13:42.50% of people who had gone to join Islamic State were university

:13:43. > :13:51.graduates, 44% had studied engineering, like Bill Arden and

:13:52. > :13:57.Mohamad Chatah. These are not... That means many of them did not have

:13:58. > :14:03.a degree. Yes, they just did not study engineering. I have made my

:14:04. > :14:09.point. One other point and I will bring everybody in. We have always

:14:10. > :14:15.been taught to challenge anything that my university says! The more

:14:16. > :14:18.important point is that of course some people have and education, of

:14:19. > :14:24.course some people are not poor, some people have not spent time in

:14:25. > :14:28.prison. But these things feed into the Isis narrative. Whether we like

:14:29. > :14:33.it or not, there are people who cannot afford to eat in London.

:14:34. > :14:38.There are British Muslims who cannot afford to buy their children's

:14:39. > :14:42.school uniforms. That all feeds into the Isis narrative, and they use it

:14:43. > :14:46.to persuade people to join their cause. My point is that I cannot

:14:47. > :14:53.find the evidence that those Muslims who are in a bad way economically

:14:54. > :14:58.are the ones joining Islamic State. Even if... Alan Johnson, former Home

:14:59. > :15:02.Secretary, does this argument resonate with you? Only the bit that

:15:03. > :15:09.says this is not the predominant factor in this. I think you have a

:15:10. > :15:11.valuable contribution to make, because we are struggling to

:15:12. > :15:16.understand the issue of radicalisation. Politicians in suits

:15:17. > :15:20.in Parliament can't do it without the help of the Muslim community.

:15:21. > :15:27.Everything that you have said could have applied to the Irish community

:15:28. > :15:30.in the 1950s or 60s, or the West Indian community. There are problems

:15:31. > :15:34.of poverty and deprivation, of course. Amongst white working class

:15:35. > :15:43.on the Mozart estate, which I know well. We have to get beyond that and

:15:44. > :15:49.say, yes, it must be a factor but are there issues in our society that

:15:50. > :15:53.are particularly problematic in terms of radicalising young Muslims?

:15:54. > :15:59.How can we get to that? I don't accept that it is just those things,

:16:00. > :16:03.but neither do you. I do not want to park on poverty, I want to move on

:16:04. > :16:09.to the real fundamental underlying issue. There is no real underlying

:16:10. > :16:13.fundamental issue. There is no single cause. It is the most

:16:14. > :16:17.complicated thing, it is why we are sitting here. There is no one

:16:18. > :16:23.underlying cause, and that is what we need to stress. What the police

:16:24. > :16:26.-- what the politicians and academics like to do is to try and

:16:27. > :16:32.create hyper rational arguments, formulate tests, here are five

:16:33. > :16:35.criteria and if the individual meets them then they are likely to be

:16:36. > :16:41.radicalised. Let's take the box and throw them, lock them away. That is

:16:42. > :16:46.not how it works. It is about people's feelings and each person

:16:47. > :16:49.will go to Syria for different reasons, and their desires and

:16:50. > :16:53.motivations are entirely different and we should not try to reduce this

:16:54. > :17:11.to a superficial, simplistic model of radicalisation. Because that is

:17:12. > :17:15.dangerous for everyone involved. I found it difficult to connect with

:17:16. > :17:20.anything in the video. I don't think there's victimisation. The language,

:17:21. > :17:24.you said people were obliged to feel oppressed and things like that. You

:17:25. > :17:28.talked about them being excluded, you talked about yourself not having

:17:29. > :17:33.any white friends or not many, and all of these things were things that

:17:34. > :17:36.have been done to you, rather than things that the community had done

:17:37. > :17:40.anything to change. So clearly there is a great sense of victimhood. I

:17:41. > :17:44.think it's quite difficult for politicians and anyone else to deal

:17:45. > :17:54.with a feeling of victimhood which I think is so little justified. As I

:17:55. > :17:59.liked at the background of the estate, the estate looked clean,

:18:00. > :18:02.modern... Can I just say. It was quite difficult for viewers to

:18:03. > :18:08.identify with what you were talking about. The Mozart estate has been

:18:09. > :18:19.gentrified, as many parts of London are and I don't think we should use

:18:20. > :18:24.these very bogged down terms. The second thing is, you spent time on

:18:25. > :18:32.an estate, you did a documentary spending a week on an estate, you

:18:33. > :18:37.found it incredibly hard to be on an estate, you said you found it

:18:38. > :18:42.incredibly hard, now you are telling me that when people say it's

:18:43. > :18:46.institutionally designed, the architecture of institutions are

:18:47. > :18:52.such that they are... Lots of people are brought up there. People don't

:18:53. > :18:56.go, lots of people are brought up in estates, Alan was brought up in real

:18:57. > :19:05.poverty. You don't then go and fight for Islamic state. The point is

:19:06. > :19:10.about victimhood. We'll get to that in a moment... The people didn't

:19:11. > :19:13.feel like victims, they felt like doing something to are place their

:19:14. > :19:17.lives. The young lady, who was the oldest child in the family that I

:19:18. > :19:23.was with, went into teaching. But the estate you did spend time on was

:19:24. > :19:30.a very heavy... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

:19:31. > :19:38.We are into intersecondtional issues... I don't know what that

:19:39. > :19:43.means, so can I ask you, isn't one of the dangers here that one of the

:19:44. > :19:49.causes perhaps of a radicalisation is that a lot of our mosques are

:19:50. > :19:53.financed by the Saudis who have a particularly extremist Wahabi view

:19:54. > :20:02.of Islam? Does that contribute to radicalisation? Yes, it does. I

:20:03. > :20:05.don't deny that. I don't know if you expected me to come on here and say

:20:06. > :20:09.no. I don't know what you were going to say, that is why I asked. But we

:20:10. > :20:14.agree it's not the only cause? There are far too many causes and can I

:20:15. > :20:19.just say, Michael Portillo, if you spent a week on an estate and found

:20:20. > :20:23.it the toughest time of your life, please do not patronise me and the

:20:24. > :20:27.other people on the estate to say we don't have a right to feel a sense

:20:28. > :20:32.of persecution and victimhood. The line of argument that's led your

:20:33. > :20:34.party to the state that it's in. It's actually the Government. Thanks

:20:35. > :20:37.for being with us. Now it's late, police officers fast

:20:38. > :20:40.asleep in their patrol cars late, but don't nod off on the job

:20:41. > :20:42.because waiting in the wings, ready to protect and serve

:20:43. > :20:45.you another glass of Blue Nun, Broadcaster Adrian Chiles

:20:46. > :20:48.is here to talk about finding And if, like us, you think

:20:49. > :20:53.hell is other people, the best place to deal

:20:54. > :20:56.with your This Week demons is The Twitter, The Fleecebook

:20:57. > :20:59.and our Former Great Leader's World Now this week the nation settled

:21:00. > :21:04.down to watch the Beeb's latest big budget TV series

:21:05. > :21:07.and its brooding hero. Yes Michael's Great Railway Journeys

:21:08. > :21:12.is back on the telly! War Peace also began

:21:13. > :21:27.on BBC One, so we asked the Spectator's Isabel Hardman

:21:28. > :21:31.to roundup a week of drama No, I'm not talking about War

:21:32. > :22:14.and Peace, that's a real page-turner, I'm talking

:22:15. > :22:30.about the Labour reshuffle. Tolstoy's epic novel is a tale

:22:31. > :22:35.of love and betrayal played out on the battlefield and behind closed

:22:36. > :22:39.doors, and this week, journalists gathered behind

:22:40. > :22:43.the closed doors of Labour's state rooms in the Palace of Westminster

:22:44. > :22:46.desperate to hear any gossip Rumours swept Westminster

:22:47. > :22:54.of a revenge reshuffle, but Corbyn's aids spent more time

:22:55. > :22:58.this week insisting they'd briefed no such purge than they actually

:22:59. > :23:01.did sacking people. So we waited and we

:23:02. > :23:05.waited and we waited. And finally, we heard a whisper that

:23:06. > :23:11.something exciting might happen. I decided to speak out a number

:23:12. > :23:15.of days ago because what we have seen in recent weeks is a period

:23:16. > :23:19.over very many weeks, a number of very good hard-working,

:23:20. > :23:22.loyal members of the Shadow Cabinet being systematically trashed

:23:23. > :23:27.in terms of their reputations in the newspapers by people

:23:28. > :23:30.in the employment of Jeremy Corbyn. Next up for the guillotine

:23:31. > :23:36.was Pat McFadden who said he'd been sacked for saying that

:23:37. > :23:40.terrorists were responsible The Labour frontbencher asked

:23:41. > :23:44.David Cameron a question in the Commons about the Paris

:23:45. > :23:48.attacks that, although entirely reasonable, was clearly designed

:23:49. > :23:52.to undermine his own leader. And then, the resignations

:23:53. > :23:54.came thick and fast. I've just written to Jeremy Corbyn

:23:55. > :23:57.to resign from the frontbench. I think things that

:23:58. > :24:00.are being said and briefed They'll do it about individuals

:24:01. > :24:07.and undoubtedly about me. This was hardly the Stalinist purge

:24:08. > :24:10.that many talked up. And, in the end, most of the job

:24:11. > :24:13.moves came from those who'd got bored and sacked themselves,

:24:14. > :24:15.rather than Corbyn wielding the axe. Hilary Benn and Maria Eagle

:24:16. > :24:18.are safe, for now. Maria Eagle's been given her dream

:24:19. > :24:23.job as Culture Secretary, And Hilary Benn's agreed

:24:24. > :24:28.to go for re-education. I'll carry on doing my job exactly

:24:29. > :24:33.as before, which is speaking for Labour on foreign policy,

:24:34. > :24:37.supporting Jeremy Corbyn and campaigning really hard

:24:38. > :24:39.to get Labour elected Perhaps Corbyn's most significant

:24:40. > :24:45.appointment was that of Emily I-love-white-vans

:24:46. > :24:49.Thornberry to the defence brief. It means Labour now has two

:24:50. > :24:52.anti-Trident politicians at the head of its defence review,

:24:53. > :24:56.a sure sign that the party is set to switch its policy

:24:57. > :25:02.on Britain's nuclear deterrent. When the party does switch

:25:03. > :25:05.its policy from supporting Trident renewal to opposing it,

:25:06. > :25:10.what will the Shadow Cabinet members who haven't left

:25:11. > :25:13.this time around do? Will they resign en mass

:25:14. > :25:22.or will they be stuck there forever? Corbyn isn't the only general

:25:23. > :25:24.who's been having trouble This week, David Cameron caved

:25:25. > :25:36.in and announced that his ministers could take whatever side they wanted

:25:37. > :25:40.to in the European Union referendum. It's a sign that the Prime Minister

:25:41. > :25:44.cannot unite his party on the matter of Europe and he certainly doesn't

:25:45. > :25:47.come out of it looking stronger. There'll be a clear Government

:25:48. > :25:49.position but it will be open to individual ministers to take

:25:50. > :25:51.a different personal position while remaining part

:25:52. > :25:54.of the Government. But it was better to accept

:25:55. > :26:00.that the Conservative Party will always have fundamental splits

:26:01. > :26:02.on Europe and to try to pretend And a free vote prevents disgruntled

:26:03. > :26:10.ministers from resigning in a blaze You are now going to have

:26:11. > :26:16.a Government in which there is no total collective unity

:26:17. > :26:19.in which people will actually stay in office apparently,

:26:20. > :26:22.but publicly oppose one of the fundamental policies of

:26:23. > :26:25.the Government in which they serve But the chaos in the Labour Party

:26:26. > :26:31.let the Tories off the hook again, amassed what was actually a pretty

:26:32. > :26:34.decent PMQs for Jeremy Corbyn. Can the Prime Minister now tell us,

:26:35. > :26:39.is he going to reverse the cuts in the defence that have taken place

:26:40. > :26:43.to make sure that those cities and areas are protected in the next

:26:44. > :26:46.round of floods which There was a moment when it looked

:26:47. > :26:57.like this reshuffle could go It was a revenge reshuffle

:26:58. > :27:04.so it was going to be I think though we can conclude it's

:27:05. > :27:10.turned into something of a comedy of errors, perhaps much

:27:11. > :27:14.ado about nothing. There will be those who worries,

:27:15. > :27:19.love's neighbours lost. So, at the end of the week, where

:27:20. > :27:23.are the two main party leaders? Well, Jeremy Corbyn positioned

:27:24. > :27:27.himself as Labour's Stroiker when he was elected promising

:27:28. > :27:30.to open up debate in the party. But this week's reshuffle has shown

:27:31. > :27:34.that there are clear limits As for Czar Cameron,

:27:35. > :27:40.there are rumblings of revolution, but he's managing to keep

:27:41. > :27:43.things in check... Sometimes I think our politicians

:27:44. > :28:24.are losing the plot. And Isabelle joins us now fluent in

:28:25. > :28:29.Russian and English as well. Did Mr Corbyn lose control of the

:28:30. > :28:33.reshuffle, and is it fair to say he did set out to sack Hilary Benn,

:28:34. > :28:38.decided he wasn't strong enough to do it so took two consolation

:28:39. > :28:43.sackings and a demotion instead? I'm not sure whether he personally ever

:28:44. > :28:48.intended to sack Hilary Benn. There were certainly those around him keen

:28:49. > :28:53.to sack Hilary Benn. He certainly didn't appear to be a big fan of

:28:54. > :28:57.Benn when he gave the speech on Islamic state and Syria last year.

:28:58. > :29:01.Corbyn is not confrontational, he prefers to discuss and go away and

:29:02. > :29:05.hope the problem disappears but you can't do that when you are the

:29:06. > :29:09.person leading the reshuffle. If he didn't intend to fire Mr Benn from

:29:10. > :29:13.the start, what was the point about the reshuffle? That is the question

:29:14. > :29:17.and what was the point of some of the stories appearing in the papers

:29:18. > :29:20.over Christmas, were they briefed by those who claimed to be close to

:29:21. > :29:25.Corbyn and why weren't they shot down who were supposed to be

:29:26. > :29:29.briefing for Corbyn. Well, were Corbyn's people doing briefing that

:29:30. > :29:33.Benn was for the chop? They have been insisting they haven't been

:29:34. > :29:40.doing that. It's not his media team personally. Was it a tactical

:29:41. > :29:45.retreat in that he saw there would be two big a fallout for the moment

:29:46. > :29:50.or that those around Mr Corbyn, his kind of kitchen Cabinet, but that,

:29:51. > :29:53.as they get stronger in the NEC and within the party, they'll eventually

:29:54. > :29:58.succeed in what they hope to do? Yes. I think he's so much stronger

:29:59. > :30:03.at the end of the week than he was at the start even though the

:30:04. > :30:06.reshuffle looked unusual, he's managed to put an anti-Trident

:30:07. > :30:10.secretary in place meaning both politicians in charge of the party's

:30:11. > :30:14.defence review are anti-Trident. Including the Labour Leader as well.

:30:15. > :30:20.Exactly. Do you think he's stronger? Yes. It's given us a number of

:30:21. > :30:24.stories over a number of days which has been great for journalists. It's

:30:25. > :30:26.been great for Jeremy Corbyn because he's warned off those who'd

:30:27. > :30:34.criticise him and thought that he could get away with it. Is Mr Corbyn

:30:35. > :30:42.in a long march, if I can put it that way to turn the Labour Party

:30:43. > :30:47.into more of his image, is that why Pat McFadden was fired? It would be

:30:48. > :30:52.more strange if he didn't want the party to agree with him and be more

:30:53. > :30:56.manageable. I agree with Isabelle, it's the people around Corbyn. I'm a

:30:57. > :31:00.member of the Society of The prevention for reshuffles, we have

:31:01. > :31:05.far too many. If Cameron's done anything right, it's that, it's not

:31:06. > :31:14.reshuffling the pack. Give than he shuffled in September, why reshuffle

:31:15. > :31:18.three months later? Was he wrong or right to sack Pat McFadden and

:31:19. > :31:21.Michael Dugher? I've been bewildered by people who've been sacked in the

:31:22. > :31:27.past. In this week in particular when David Cameron was there to be

:31:28. > :31:30.attacked on his new theory of collective irresponsibility, you

:31:31. > :31:35.know, Pat McFadden's been an excellent European... So should he

:31:36. > :31:39.have been fired or not? No, I don't think he should have been fired. And

:31:40. > :31:42.Michael Dugher? Look, I wouldn't have had a reshuffle and, you

:31:43. > :31:45.know... So you wouldn't have fired them? I would have left everyone in

:31:46. > :31:50.place. Let's look at a consequence of what Isabelle was saying, your

:31:51. > :31:55.leader is against Trident, always been in favour of unilateral

:31:56. > :31:58.disarmament, the new defence Shadow secretary is against renewing

:31:59. > :32:01.Trident, the man heading the policy review, Mr Livingstone is against it

:32:02. > :32:07.and on the Daily Politics today he was sniffy about staying in NATO and

:32:08. > :32:11.said that that was up for review, although it was knocked down later.

:32:12. > :32:17.Your party, let's be honest, is heading for a position of unilateral

:32:18. > :32:21.nuclear disarmament? I hope not. It's not our policy at the moment.

:32:22. > :32:25.Our policy... I know what your policy is. It's important because

:32:26. > :32:29.it's our policy as recently as our last conference when conference

:32:30. > :32:34.declined to even debate the issue. It's clear that's his intention,

:32:35. > :32:39.isn't it? He clearly wants the party to reflect that policy. Would you

:32:40. > :32:43.fight the next election on that platform if your party adopts

:32:44. > :32:48.unilateral nuclear disarmament as you had in 1983 under Michael Foot,

:32:49. > :32:52.would you fight under that policy in the next election? I haven't thought

:32:53. > :32:58.about what I'll do at the next election. I would argue against

:32:59. > :33:02.changing or policy. I think the majority of Parliamentary Labour

:33:03. > :33:06.Party would and, give than we arrived at our decision through a

:33:07. > :33:10.long process, without people using expertise, I think... I understand

:33:11. > :33:13.that, but let's be honest here, you know that any review headed up by

:33:14. > :33:18.Ken Livingstone, you know what the conclusion of that is going to be?

:33:19. > :33:22.It's not going to say renew Trident? Well, I certainly know where Ken

:33:23. > :33:30.would like to take it. He's heading up the review. Michael, the Labour

:33:31. > :33:36.reshuffle? I think it was just a, you know, a wonderful week for the

:33:37. > :33:39.Conservatives. I don't quite know whether Jeremy Corbyn's emerged from

:33:40. > :33:42.it stronger. I think the impression's been left that he

:33:43. > :33:45.wanted to do more and he's done less than intended and therefore he maybe

:33:46. > :33:49.looks quite weak. It would have been a difficult week for the Tories if

:33:50. > :33:53.the Labour Party had its mind on what was going on. Isabelle, there

:33:54. > :33:58.was never really any doubt that Mr Cameron would have to allow the

:33:59. > :34:03.ministers to go their own way come the referendum the way Harold Wilson

:34:04. > :34:08.did in 75, but why did he admit it this week and say, that's what I'll

:34:09. > :34:11.do? The whips have been working on the assumption there would be a

:34:12. > :34:15.suspension of collective responsibility for months. Sources

:34:16. > :34:18.told me that the reason there was a delay was that actually, Cameron

:34:19. > :34:22.wanted to give the Euro-sceptics a sense that they'd won a battle so

:34:23. > :34:26.they'd campaign for the free vote, they were given it and could two

:34:27. > :34:29.away saying look what we have achieved and it could be a long

:34:30. > :34:33.deliberative process in Downing Street. They'd decided months ago,

:34:34. > :34:38.apparently. He had no choice, did he? I think he

:34:39. > :34:42.had no choice eventually, but I think it's immensely strengthening

:34:43. > :34:47.the Grexit side of the argument. Because? Well, because it's going to

:34:48. > :34:53.unleash some quite formidable personalities who just happen to be

:34:54. > :35:01.members of the Cabinet and I think until now there's been a very strong

:35:02. > :35:08.impression. Like who? Michael Gove. Iain Duncan Smith certainly.

:35:09. > :35:12.I think until now and this is the approach generally applied to the

:35:13. > :35:15.referendum, anybody who is against the establishment position you think

:35:16. > :35:18.they're some kind of fringe loony so you get the whole establishment to

:35:19. > :35:22.go, you have the Labour Party, the Conservative Party, the Liberal

:35:23. > :35:26.Democrats, the BBC, the economists, you know, the CBI will all be saying

:35:27. > :35:33.we should stay in the European Union. Suddenly it doesn't look the

:35:34. > :35:37.same if you have a serious member in the Cabinet.

:35:38. > :35:45.It is what Harold Wilson did in 1975, and you had Michael foot and

:35:46. > :35:51.Tony Benn and five or six other big beasts in the labour cabinet who

:35:52. > :35:57.decided to campaign against it. So Cameron turns out to be the heir to

:35:58. > :36:01.Wilson! I don't think Wilson had a choice, because it was virtually the

:36:02. > :36:07.referendum as to whether we should go in. I think David Cameron did

:36:08. > :36:11.have a choice to come back with his package, get the view of the Cabinet

:36:12. > :36:15.and say, that is the view of Cabinet. Because he is going to make

:36:16. > :36:26.a recommendation. I know that Wilson did as well. We have -- we had been

:36:27. > :36:30.in for 40 years. 40 years later, wrenching yourself out of an

:36:31. > :36:37.organisation you have been part of that is very different. I

:36:38. > :36:42.understand. I don't think it will make a jot of difference to whether

:36:43. > :36:45.we stay or not. Cameron's thinking must have been that people like

:36:46. > :36:48.Chris Grayling and Iain Duncan-Smith are going to resign from the Cabinet

:36:49. > :36:57.anyway and beyond those platforms, so I might as well do it this way. I

:36:58. > :37:03.can understand that. Finally, very quickly, your best guess of when the

:37:04. > :37:08.referendum will be. Mid to late summer but it cannot clash with

:37:09. > :37:11.Scottish school holidays. So it could be pushed back to September.

:37:12. > :37:14.We shall see. Thank you. Now, evidence continues to mount

:37:15. > :37:17.that God works in mysterious ways after he intervened, once again,

:37:18. > :37:19.to save the skin of accident-prone Nigel's cheated death before,

:37:20. > :37:23.of course, emerging almost unscathed from a terrifying

:37:24. > :37:24.light-aircraft crash in 2010. His latest miraculous escape

:37:25. > :37:27.was on the road to Dunkirk after Our Nige was forced

:37:28. > :37:31.to abandon his Volvo V70 at high-speed, when one

:37:32. > :37:37.of his wheels flew off! Nigel claims all his nuts

:37:38. > :37:39.had been loosened - insert your own joke here, folks -

:37:40. > :37:42.and hints at dark satanic forces being at play, though there's no

:37:43. > :37:46.evidence Douglas Carswell The political implication is clear -

:37:47. > :37:52.when it comes membership of the European Union,

:37:53. > :37:54.according to Nigel, it really Which is why we've decided it's time

:37:55. > :37:59.to put 'God' in this week's He's not the divine being,

:38:00. > :38:10.he's a very naughty boy. A year on from the Charlie Hebdo

:38:11. > :38:12.massacre, the French satirists have commemorated

:38:13. > :38:16.the anniversary with a cover depicting God as a

:38:17. > :38:20.terrorist on the loose, asking why belief so often

:38:21. > :38:25.leads to brutality. TRANSLATION: I'm not concerned

:38:26. > :38:27.with the other voices. We apply the Sharia law

:38:28. > :38:29.according to the facts The Sunni regime in

:38:30. > :38:35.Saudi Arabia claims to be carrying out God's wishes,

:38:36. > :38:38.after it executed a noted Shia cleric, along with 46 others,

:38:39. > :38:42.triggering a diplomatic crisis Iran's supreme leader says his God

:38:43. > :38:48.isn't pleased and claims divine But in the UK, are we just

:38:49. > :38:57.losing our religion? David Cameron pointedly labelled

:38:58. > :38:59.Britain a Christian country in his Christmas message,

:39:00. > :39:01.while a former top Whitehall official claims Christians

:39:02. > :39:05.are now viewed as odd and unusual The meek might end up

:39:06. > :39:13.inheriting the earth, but they're not

:39:14. > :39:15.getting much coverage And if religion is having a PR

:39:16. > :39:20.headache, is it easy to forget that many ordinary, peaceful

:39:21. > :39:22.folks are believers, The broadcaster wants to know

:39:23. > :39:26.if so many people believe in a single God, why can't

:39:27. > :39:45.we all just get along? And Adrian is with us now. Welcome

:39:46. > :39:51.to the programme, good to see you. I remember our days on the One Show.

:39:52. > :39:58.You were very generous to me when you allowed me to come on your

:39:59. > :40:07.Autumn Statement show. Thank you. He is all heart! How did you come to

:40:08. > :40:11.religion as an adult? I had always sort of been a believer. My family

:40:12. > :40:17.are atheist but I never found the church to go to. I did not try very

:40:18. > :40:21.hard, to be honest. I popped in and left again. I went to a couple of

:40:22. > :40:28.happy, clappy type things at university. A mate of mine was from

:40:29. > :40:33.Birmingham, lived in London and took me to a Catholic church when I was

:40:34. > :40:39.38. I just felt at home, with people who were a bit like me. It was just

:40:40. > :40:44.a feeling. I can't really explain it. You are happy to talk about it

:40:45. > :40:47.but do you find that particularly Christians in this country are

:40:48. > :40:54.reluctant to talk about religion and their beliefs? Slightly. But when

:40:55. > :40:58.you get it out there, I am amazed at the amount of people who have come

:40:59. > :41:02.up to me this week. The programme went out on Sunday and I'm at a

:41:03. > :41:07.bloke at Manchester Piccadilly and he said, I saw that, bang on. I went

:41:08. > :41:13.to a different mass every day for Lent last year and wrote about it on

:41:14. > :41:18.the BBC website. It was about the third most read that weekend. West

:41:19. > :41:24.Brom were playing at Arsenal, the last game of the season, basically a

:41:25. > :41:29.booze cruise. Blokes were coming up to me saying, I liked that, I read

:41:30. > :41:34.it, I quite like going there. I think people want to believe in

:41:35. > :41:38.something. When I first became a Catholic, a brilliant priest led me

:41:39. > :41:42.there and he said, a lot of it is just superstition. Forget the

:41:43. > :41:48.detail, just be still and the truth will come to you. He said, look at

:41:49. > :41:54.every book shop, the mind, body and spirit section. All my life, that

:41:55. > :41:58.section has been getting bigger and bigger. It is a whole wall of the

:41:59. > :42:01.book shop. He said, that is religion, mind, body and spirit.

:42:02. > :42:05.Everybody is looking for something and they don't quite know what it

:42:06. > :42:11.is. There are strong minority religions in this country, brought

:42:12. > :42:18.by immigrants who have settled. Our history is as a Christian country.

:42:19. > :42:25.Are we a post-Christian country now? We are obviously a multicultural

:42:26. > :42:30.country. Let's just celebrate the similarities between people of

:42:31. > :42:36.faith. I have covered the Abraham Ancer religions, all three in two

:42:37. > :42:41.hours. The commissioner said, establish if you could be Jewish, or

:42:42. > :42:47.Muslim. It is a daft question, really, because what kind of a June,

:42:48. > :42:51.what kind of Muslim? I have more in common with liberals of those

:42:52. > :42:54.religions than I have with a conservative Roman Catholic, let

:42:55. > :42:59.alone a bible belt American. In the end, it did not really matter what

:43:00. > :43:02.religion anyone else was, it was with what degree of fervour they

:43:03. > :43:08.pursued it. But if more people had that attitude, more people may be

:43:09. > :43:13.taken to religion. What puts a lot of people off is that the three

:43:14. > :43:20.monotheistic religions, all children of Abraham, and often from the

:43:21. > :43:24.Crusades to the situation now, they are at each other's throats. That is

:43:25. > :43:29.because the normal people, which I hope I got to in that programme on

:43:30. > :43:33.Sunday, people don't realise that normal people like them do go to

:43:34. > :43:37.mosque, to synagogue and to church, or maybe they don't but they kind of

:43:38. > :43:43.believe. Celebrate them a little bit, it couple of hours in one year,

:43:44. > :43:49.it is not going to hurt anybody. Go along to a church, go and sit there.

:43:50. > :43:54.Churches, like golf clubs, should have social memberships, where you

:43:55. > :43:57.just go and sit and drink. Churches should have associate memberships,

:43:58. > :44:04.where you come and sit at the back. Have a bit of peace and quiet. The

:44:05. > :44:08.name of the programme? My Mediterranean. Tellingly, we shied

:44:09. > :44:13.away from putting in the word God. Thank you.

:44:14. > :44:16.That's your lot for tonight folks but not for us because it's

:44:17. > :44:18.Kyrgyzstan sausage night at Lou Lou's and the promise of some

:44:19. > :44:21.equine schlong has got the entire This Week team licking their lips.

:44:22. > :44:23.But we leave you tonight with Sir Philip Dilley,

:44:24. > :44:27.the ?100,000 a year, three-day-a-week Chairman

:44:28. > :44:45.Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles...

:44:46. > :44:47.There are many ways to pass the time, aren't there?

:44:48. > :44:54.Or you could accidentally knock over a colleague... Miles...

:44:55. > :44:59...which is funny, but not informative.