:00:00. > :00:09.Tonight on This Week, 'Deal or no deal'?
:00:10. > :00:12.The Prime Minister's been busy on the phone trying
:00:13. > :00:15.to sell his draft EU reform deal and win the prize of staying
:00:16. > :00:20.The Economist's, Anne McElvoy ponders whether we'll accept
:00:21. > :00:35.Dave raced out of Downing Street announcing he had won the jackpot.
:00:36. > :00:37.Not everyone was convinced but he was so carried away that he headed
:00:38. > :00:39.straight to Wiltshire. David Cameron thinks top
:00:40. > :00:41.universities need to offer a better deal to attract more black
:00:42. > :00:44.and minority ethnic students. Jazz musician, Soweto Kinch,
:00:45. > :00:59.doesn't think the PM fully No, I don't think it's going to be
:01:00. > :01:01.enough to tinker with the edges of the admissions process without root
:01:02. > :01:04.and branch reform. No deal. And, the bankers gamble; Razorlight
:01:05. > :01:06.front-man Johnny Borrell joins us to talk about music
:01:07. > :01:18.on the campaign trail. If it's serious politics you're
:01:19. > :01:20.after, I'm afraid this box is practically empty.
:01:21. > :01:23.Open a bottle of Blue Nun, Deal or no deal?
:01:24. > :01:31.Evenin' all, welcome to This Week, the show with no emergency brake.
:01:32. > :01:35.Unlike Call-me-Dave who has more need of one than us now he's ratted
:01:36. > :01:41.The PM made very clear this week that when it comes to Europe,
:01:42. > :01:46.Even if it's Brussels that tells him when to put them on.
:01:47. > :01:48.So forget the European Court of Justice.
:01:49. > :02:00.Because Call-Me-Dave's draft deal means those pesky EU migrants
:02:01. > :02:04.will no longer be free to travel to good old Blighty,
:02:05. > :02:07.get a job, use public services, pay their taxes or watch This Week
:02:08. > :02:13.while claiming in-work welfare benefits.
:02:14. > :02:17.Now they'll be free to travel to Blighty, get a job,
:02:18. > :02:19.use public services, pay their taxes and watch This Week
:02:20. > :02:24.while only able to claim in-work benefits on a graduated basis.
:02:25. > :02:31.This is how victory must have felt on VE day!
:02:32. > :02:38.Of course, for the emergency brake to be granted by Brussels,
:02:39. > :02:41.Call-Me-Dave will first have to admit that immigration is out
:02:42. > :02:46.of control,that he's still failed to honour his manifesto pledge,
:02:47. > :02:48.made way back in 2010, to cut immigration to
:02:49. > :02:55.But the PM said it was a 'no ifs no buts' pledge so I'm confident,
:02:56. > :03:00.confident he'll keep his word, control immigration and have no need
:03:01. > :03:04.of that Brussels brake, emergency or otherwise.
:03:05. > :03:07.Speaking of rewards for failure, I'm joined on the sofa tonight
:03:08. > :03:12.by two guests most apposite for the week in which Hilary Clinton
:03:13. > :03:16.won some Iowa precincts by the flip of a coin.
:03:17. > :03:20.Think of them as a couple of British political tossers.
:03:21. > :03:24.The heads-I-win, tails-you-lose of late night political chat.
:03:25. > :03:27.I speak, of course, of #manontheleft Alan 'AJ' Johnson,
:03:28. > :03:36.and #sadmanonatrain Michael 'choo choo' Portillo.
:03:37. > :03:46.Your moment of the week? Today, there was a donor's conference for
:03:47. > :03:51.countries to put money into helping refugees from Syria in the region,
:03:52. > :03:56.and this led to the showing of footage of what is going on in the
:03:57. > :04:02.region. UCB 's refugee camps stretching beyond what the human eye
:04:03. > :04:05.can take in. -- you see them. Apparently 4 million displaced
:04:06. > :04:11.within the region, 12 million within Syria itself. When you think about
:04:12. > :04:16.these numbers, you think how frightened Europe is about possibly
:04:17. > :04:20.1 million refugees per year throughout continental Europe, but
:04:21. > :04:23.you have possibly 16 million displaced people in the region. On
:04:24. > :04:27.the one hand it certainly makes it very sensible to
:04:28. > :04:31.the one hand it certainly makes it refugees in the region, and it is
:04:32. > :04:35.certainly a place where our overseas aid budget and national interest
:04:36. > :04:41.coincide. But it also makes you realise what a tide of miserable,
:04:42. > :04:49.suffering humanity varies very close to the European border. With more to
:04:50. > :04:54.come. This conference met, but half a mile from here President Assad's
:04:55. > :04:59.ground forces were pounding Aleppo, the biggest city in
:05:00. > :05:02.ground forces were pounding Aleppo, thousands of people fleeing these
:05:03. > :05:11.border. And apart from that, a gem border. And apart from that, a gem
:05:12. > :05:14.places you can go. Alan Johnson. Tax. There has not
:05:15. > :05:15.places you can go. Alan Johnson. politician for over 30 years who has
:05:16. > :05:19.proposed an increase in the politician for over 30 years who has
:05:20. > :05:24.rate of tax but Kezia Dugdale, the leader in Scotland did so
:05:25. > :05:24.rate of tax but Kezia Dugdale, the I think she has been very bold and I
:05:25. > :05:29.think she is right. In the I think she has been very bold and I
:05:30. > :05:32.of Scottish politics, whether nationalists have blamed Westminster
:05:33. > :05:36.for austerity but declined to use the powers they have two increased
:05:37. > :05:39.for austerity but declined to use taxes, I think it makes it very
:05:40. > :05:42.interesting for a party to say, actually, we will save those public
:05:43. > :05:48.service jobs by doing that we have the power to do. And I think Kezia
:05:49. > :05:51.Dugdale has made waves this week with that. Isn't it the sort of
:05:52. > :05:58.thing a permanent secretary would call very brave? Very interesting,
:05:59. > :06:01.Minister. In a British context, certainly.
:06:02. > :06:03.Now, Call-me-Dave began the week with a wide-ranging attack
:06:04. > :06:05.on a number of British institutions, including the Armed Forces,
:06:06. > :06:11.big business, the court system, and top universities.
:06:12. > :06:14.Dave accused them of "ingrained and insidious" attitudes
:06:15. > :06:19.towards people of colour, and poor white males.
:06:20. > :06:22.He said it "should shame our nation" that so few black students studied
:06:23. > :06:25.at Oxford, calling on his old university to do much more.
:06:26. > :06:27.According to Dave, "if you're a young black man, you're more
:06:28. > :06:34.likely to be in a prison cell than studying at a top university".
:06:35. > :06:37.Well, one young black man who is very much not in prison
:06:38. > :06:40.is MOBO award-winning jazz musician and Oxford graduate,
:06:41. > :07:06.I'm proud to have studied at Oxford but less
:07:07. > :07:13.proud of an endemic strain of racism.
:07:14. > :07:15.Over the past few months, I've watched coverage
:07:16. > :07:19.of the lilywhite Oscars, Idris Elba in Parliament,
:07:20. > :07:21.and the furore over the Cecil Rhodes Must Fall campaign
:07:22. > :07:23.with a sense of mounting frustration.
:07:24. > :07:25.Frustration that threatened to boil over when I saw
:07:26. > :07:29.David Cameron talking about the need to get more black and ethnic
:07:30. > :07:37.Because I believe all of this is diversionary
:07:38. > :07:41.It's no use tinkering around the edges.
:07:42. > :07:44.Unless we radically reframe our notions of British history,
:07:45. > :07:56.20 years ago, when I went to Oxford, I headed the Africa Society
:07:57. > :07:58.and the Black Caucus, presiding over a grand
:07:59. > :08:05.I think we were all convinced that two decades
:08:06. > :08:07.later there'd be hundreds more black and brown students there,
:08:08. > :08:11.making Oxford a more diverse and interesting place.
:08:12. > :08:13.But we couldn't have been more wrong.
:08:14. > :08:22.The same is replicated on stage and screen with our canon
:08:23. > :08:28.of cultural icons and the teaching of British values.
:08:29. > :08:31.Young black Britons are being sold a version, an image of Britishness
:08:32. > :08:37.It's only once these myths are systematically unpicked
:08:38. > :08:40.that we are going to see a drive and increased
:08:41. > :08:44.The Rhodes Must Fall campaign is great
:08:45. > :08:47.because for the first time black students aspiring to go to Oxbridge
:08:48. > :08:50.can see that there is a critical community prepared to interrogate
:08:51. > :08:58.I say top marks to David Cameron for raising the issue,
:08:59. > :09:01.and to Business Secretary Sajid Javid for speaking out
:09:02. > :09:08.about being called a Paki in the playground.
:09:09. > :09:10.But until we take a long, hard look at the way
:09:11. > :09:19.we frame our British story, nothing is going to change.
:09:20. > :09:21.From beautiful melodies at the 606 Club to clanging cymbals
:09:22. > :09:29.here in Westminster, Soweto Kinch joins us now.
:09:30. > :09:38.Welcome to the programme. You talk of institutional racism but 13% of
:09:39. > :09:42.British undergraduates at Oxford are from ethnic backgrounds, higher than
:09:43. > :09:46.the percentage of the non-white population in the wider population.
:09:47. > :09:52.24% if you include postgraduates. Why is that racism? I think it is
:09:53. > :09:55.easy, perhaps comforting just to look at figures but the whole reason
:09:56. > :09:59.Cameron made this remark is coming on the heels of the Idris Elba said
:10:00. > :10:04.about the Oscars and the Cecil Rhodes must fall campaign. We
:10:05. > :10:09.appreciate there is a problem, but look elsewhere. I am saying that all
:10:10. > :10:13.of these issues are connected. But you said in your piece that it had
:10:14. > :10:18.got worse since you were at university but actually it is much
:10:19. > :10:22.better. You can look at figures, but look at the response to the
:10:23. > :10:26.campaign. Done the figures matter? They do, but look at the response to
:10:27. > :10:31.the campaign. There is a kickback of, we dealt with that and it is a
:10:32. > :10:35.long time in the past. Nobody knows what Mr deeds, what crimes Cecil
:10:36. > :10:39.Rhodes is accused of, and for that reason, the implacable nature of the
:10:40. > :10:43.discussion, we're not even going to broach this subject. I understand
:10:44. > :10:46.that Cecil Rhodes is another argument but Oxbridge does not
:10:47. > :10:52.determine everything. Take the Russell Group, 18% of their students
:10:53. > :10:56.in Russell Group universities are from ethnic minority backgrounds.
:10:57. > :11:02.That is a much higher percentage than the population at large, so why
:11:03. > :11:06.is that evidence of racism? Again, I think it is so easy to obsess on
:11:07. > :11:09.figures as though a certain percentage, a certain level will be
:11:10. > :11:13.OK and we have dealt with racism. What are these graduates going on to
:11:14. > :11:18.do, what jobs will they occupy, what views will they espouse? Will they
:11:19. > :11:27.be people other black students will aspire to be? That is a bigger
:11:28. > :11:30.question than 13 or 12%. You said we need to radically reframe British
:11:31. > :11:36.history. What does that mean? Let's look at Cecil Rhodes, for example.
:11:37. > :11:40.Many people are aware he was a little bit racist, maybe, but not
:11:41. > :11:45.that he stole 1 million hectares of land, Hitler was a great admirer, on
:11:46. > :11:49.record as saying this is the only way to be an Anglo-Saxon. And he was
:11:50. > :11:54.a predatory paedophile. That has not been talked about. They pulled down
:11:55. > :11:57.the Jimmy Savile statue a few days after the revelations and there was
:11:58. > :12:04.no outcry against that. This man has been dead for a very long time, and
:12:05. > :12:11.yet there is this reaction, we don't want to talk about it, we don't want
:12:12. > :12:16.to acknowledge your victimhood. What is your reaction, Alan Johnson, to
:12:17. > :12:21.the general point of the number of ethnic minority students going to
:12:22. > :12:28.university? The number of ethnic minorities in Parliament is 6.5%. My
:12:29. > :12:32.view of this, I was higher education minister over ten years ago, is that
:12:33. > :12:37.Oxbridge and Cambridge were going out of their way to try to attract
:12:38. > :12:40.students. It is not just black minority ethnic but poorer working
:12:41. > :12:48.class students, state school kids. The problem is much earlier on. The
:12:49. > :12:51.problem was around teachers who squashed the aspiration, don't ever
:12:52. > :13:02.think of going to Oxbridge. If you do think of those as hallowed turf.
:13:03. > :13:04.So David Cameron, who has got rid of education and maintenance allowance,
:13:05. > :13:10.turned student grants into student loans for poorer students. All of
:13:11. > :13:14.that was important. He has cut back on the aim higher staff that was all
:13:15. > :13:17.about universities like Oxford and Cambridge working at primary school
:13:18. > :13:24.level, never mind secondary school, to raise the sites of children to
:13:25. > :13:27.say, you can go to university. If black kids don't apply, they will
:13:28. > :13:30.not be able to take them in. If they think, it is not for me, for
:13:31. > :13:34.whatever reason, then they are not going to apply and will not get in.
:13:35. > :13:39.All of that needs to be tackled and that is more important than having a
:13:40. > :13:45.go at Oxford and Cambridge. It is stuff David Cameron is in charge of.
:13:46. > :13:49.First off, for some explanation on the disagreement about the figures,
:13:50. > :13:52.as I understand it, the ethnic minorities are largely made up of
:13:53. > :13:54.students of Indian background and it remains the case that black
:13:55. > :14:00.Caribbean, black African are represented by a very small number.
:14:01. > :14:09.They are not, actually. Almost 3% of the intake was black into Oxford
:14:10. > :14:16.last year, and that 3% black is the population as a whole. 5% were of
:14:17. > :14:23.Asian origin. That is about the population as a whole. OK.
:14:24. > :14:31.Can Goyt on to make another point. Alan is right, it's extraordinary
:14:32. > :14:40.the Prime Minister goes on to target Oxford University. We have not had a
:14:41. > :14:44.black chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, which is the head of the
:14:45. > :14:49.military. Which was Colin Powell? Yes, we have not had people anywhere
:14:50. > :14:52.near those positions. The problem lies largely in our education
:14:53. > :14:59.system, it may also lie with parents, by the way, but it will lie
:15:00. > :15:04.rely on our education system. To decide that you are going to attack
:15:05. > :15:09.Oxford University for this strikes me as odd. The reason is because
:15:10. > :15:14.again it comes on the back of the heels of the Cecil Rhodes outcry. I
:15:15. > :15:18.was at a similar event in Birmingham where Ed vasy talked about his
:15:19. > :15:23.legacy as cultural minister and also making a big push given what Idris
:15:24. > :15:28.Elba said about diversity and the arts and it's a fear of not being
:15:29. > :15:32.seen on the wrong side of the debate without grass roots understanding of
:15:33. > :15:39.how to implement the diverse objectives and change perceptions of
:15:40. > :15:43.what Oxford is like. We can talk all day about 12-13%, no undergraduate
:15:44. > :15:49.is going to look and say, what are the indices, is this a friendly
:15:50. > :15:52.place for me to study. It's a way of judging whether the university is
:15:53. > :15:55.place for me to study. It's a way of institutionally racist or not and if
:15:56. > :15:56.it's taking in the rough equivalent to the population as a whole,
:15:57. > :16:04.it's taking in the rough equivalent think it's hard to argue and, if
:16:05. > :16:09.we... The racism... If we look at opportunity
:16:10. > :16:10.would like to see, and social mobility, the worst performing
:16:11. > :16:14.social mobility, the worst performing
:16:15. > :16:17.educationally are white, working class boys.
:16:18. > :16:21.ALL SPEAK AT class boys.
:16:22. > :16:27.They are way underrepresented? They have a
:16:28. > :16:30.They are way underrepresented? They schools. Kings College
:16:31. > :16:33.Cambridge, a higher percentage. A whole college set up
:16:34. > :16:38.Cambridge, a higher percentage. A advancement of women. These are not
:16:39. > :16:46.working class boys? These are excellent state schoolboys. In the
:16:47. > :16:50.case of a woman's college, there is a paucity of representation. We set
:16:51. > :16:55.up St Margaret's to combat that and others. Separate black college? No,
:16:56. > :17:00.I'm not saying that, I'm saying why is there this reaction? The numbers
:17:01. > :17:04.are here. I don't think anybody is saying we have done enough, I'm
:17:05. > :17:08.wondering if it's add bass as you made out it was and I suggest the
:17:09. > :17:10.figures don't show that. If there was one major change you could make
:17:11. > :17:15.that would help things, what would it be? The debate seems to move
:17:16. > :17:22.around a lot and I would like to enable people to see that the
:17:23. > :17:26.connections really between the risk, the Oscar ceremonies, what's
:17:27. > :17:30.happening here at Oxford and with Cecil Rhodes, it's not isolated
:17:31. > :17:34.events, but actually a fundamental challenge to what we think of when
:17:35. > :17:41.we hear this is what a British President looks like, this is what
:17:42. > :17:47.an Oxford graduate looks like. There is no box for us on the census form
:17:48. > :17:52.no, black British thing for us to fill in, it's black African or black
:17:53. > :17:57.Caribbean, where is our sense of belonging to this notion of
:17:58. > :18:03.Britishness, our sense of belonging if after 60-70 years of being here,
:18:04. > :18:07.my grandma came in in 1954, not to mention the Africans who brought the
:18:08. > :18:11.wealth to this country, can we get a box on a census form, a sense of
:18:12. > :18:14.what it is to be British? Thank you for joining us.
:18:15. > :18:17.Now it's late, Diane Abbott hiding under Jeremy Corbyn's duvet late.
:18:18. > :18:20.So if the story is true, and who are we to doubt it,
:18:21. > :18:24.Because waiting in the wings, Johnny Borrell is here
:18:25. > :18:26.to talk about the politics of campaign music.
:18:27. > :18:28.And remember, we've put new batteries in The Twitter,
:18:29. > :18:31.the Fleecebook, the MySpace, YourSpace, their Space
:18:32. > :18:35.and And Gordon Brown's Intergalactic Web Sphere.
:18:36. > :18:38.Now I know what you're thinking, this is a game-changer.
:18:39. > :18:56.Meat Le Blanc is joining Top Gear. Bet his benefits aren't being
:18:57. > :19:00.graduated! After the ground-breaking victory in the deal, I hear Mr
:19:01. > :19:06.Cameron's already on the phone to the Top Gear producers so we asked
:19:07. > :19:15.Anne McElvoy for the inside track on the week behind closed doors at
:19:16. > :19:21.Downing Street. Matt Le Blanc, next you'll be telling me Tom Cruise will
:19:22. > :19:30.be presenting Great British Railway Journeys!
:19:31. > :19:35.Downing Street switchboard here, your call is important to us, hold
:19:36. > :19:39.one moment please. Everyone's been trying to get hold of the Prime
:19:40. > :19:46.Minister this week but he's been ever so busy battling for Britain.
:19:47. > :19:59.He's in Chippenham, dear... # Call me on the line call me
:20:00. > :20:03.# Call me any, any time... # The PM's been threatening to hang up
:20:04. > :20:08.on Europe for a while now and on Monday night it all came to a head.
:20:09. > :20:11.He hosted a dinner for EU chief Donald tusk to sort out once and for
:20:12. > :20:16.all the terms of British renegotiation. I hear it all got
:20:17. > :20:22.rather heated. Dave wouldn't let Donald go until he tried at least
:20:23. > :20:25.one of Sam's Bake Off vol-au-vents. Sometimes people say to me, if you
:20:26. > :20:29.weren't in the European Union would you opt to join the European Union.
:20:30. > :20:33.And today I can give a very clear answer, if I could get these terms
:20:34. > :20:42.for British membership, I sure would opt in. Downing Street, how can I
:20:43. > :20:46.direct your call... Hello, it's Donald, could you pass
:20:47. > :20:51.on the message to David and Samantha, I wanted to thank them for
:20:52. > :20:59.a lovely evening last night and say, Angela, so pleased. Dave hasn't been
:21:00. > :21:10.inundated with messages of support. He hasn't got that much out of it.
:21:11. > :21:19.It's a phased in tweak. He's relying on an enJr. Tellic dash and a photo
:21:20. > :21:22.generalic press conference to trumpet his triumphs because he
:21:23. > :21:28.knows perhaps he hasn't got that much to sell. The switchboard's been
:21:29. > :21:34.lighting up all day and Nigel is here letting off steam. If you look
:21:35. > :21:42.at the renegotiate package, it was hardly worth the wait, it's pathetic
:21:43. > :21:46.really. The demands from the Government are limited and they have
:21:47. > :21:49.been watered down. The Prime Minister has been going around
:21:50. > :21:52.Europe asking other European leaders if we in Britain can change our own
:21:53. > :22:02.benefit laws. It's true that some people were
:22:03. > :22:07.always going to hate whatever Cameron brought back, but his real
:22:08. > :22:11.worry is his Cabinet colleagues and some of them are being put on hold.
:22:12. > :22:17.They think Cameron is trying to give himself an unfair advantage in the
:22:18. > :22:20.campaign, but the PM is trying to flush out sceptics, not all are easy
:22:21. > :22:28.to get hold of just in case they have to commit to something.
:22:29. > :22:33.Greetings, you have reached the voice mail of Boris Johnson MP,
:22:34. > :22:38.sorry I can't come to the phone right now, but if you leave a
:22:39. > :22:46.message I will endeavour with every fibre to return your call...
:22:47. > :22:51.The PM's exuberant dash to share the good news with Chippenham left the
:22:52. > :22:56.Labour Leader rather cross. Yes, Jeremy Corbyn adopted the tone and
:22:57. > :23:00.all of the excitement as a slightly aanied chemistry teacher. It's
:23:01. > :23:04.rather strange that the Prime Minister is not here, only two of
:23:05. > :23:08.his Cabinet colleagues appear to be in attendance today and the Prime
:23:09. > :23:13.Minister, and I should be pleased about this, I suppose, seems to
:23:14. > :23:18.think he should be in Chippenham paying homage to the town where I
:23:19. > :23:23.was born making a speech about negotiations with the European
:23:24. > :23:28.Union, rather than his duty is to report to this House first.
:23:29. > :23:32.There were more than a few crossed words in this tangled euro tale
:23:33. > :23:36.though. If you are a sceptic like Jeremy Corbyn, but you have done a
:23:37. > :23:40.deal with your own party to back Britain in Europe, what else can you
:23:41. > :23:45.do but complain about procedural niceties? At PMQs, both party
:23:46. > :23:51.leaders avoided Europe and it was down to the SNP to shout down the
:23:52. > :23:55.line about the question about when we might actually vote. The First
:23:56. > :23:59.Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have written today
:24:00. > :24:04.saying that they believe holding a referendum in June, and I quote
:24:05. > :24:09."risks confusing issues when clarity is required and call on the Prime
:24:10. > :24:18.Minister to defer the EU referendum at least until later in the year".
:24:19. > :24:23.PHONE RINGS Hello, David, it's William here,
:24:24. > :24:28.your close friend and allie. Sorry to go on about all the red
:24:29. > :24:34.card business, but I did tell you so.
:24:35. > :24:41.Hello, David, it's Jeremy phoning again. Pardon me, call me back,
:24:42. > :24:44.please, at your convenience. We could talk about drain covers.
:24:45. > :24:49.On Wednesday, the PM finally came to the Commons to talk about Europe.
:24:50. > :24:53.And it could have gone a lot worse for him. In fact, it was all getting
:24:54. > :24:58.a bit dull until one MP decided the time was right for a Frank call.
:24:59. > :25:02.-- prank call. The Prime Minister is making the best of a bad job, but I
:25:03. > :25:07.regret to inform you that my position is still what it was
:25:08. > :25:10.yesterday morning. Boris is a long-distance caller, for him the
:25:11. > :25:15.question isn't Britain in Europe it's whether a pro-European Tory can
:25:16. > :25:22.lead the party after Dave. But there's still a long way to go with
:25:23. > :25:26.this chatter and tomorrow Dave's been invited to Donald Tusk's place
:25:27. > :25:32.in Poland. I think that's him on the line now. David, it's the Donald,
:25:33. > :25:37.it's a fix... Oh, no, it's the wrong Donald. I'm coming to London whether
:25:38. > :25:41.you like it or not, if I win, it's the White House, if I lose it's the
:25:42. > :25:44.celebrity big brother House, I'm coming to London, everyone loves me.
:25:45. > :26:03.The number has been disconnected... Miranda and our guest are here now.
:26:04. > :26:09.Miranda, what were you going to do? Vote remain. Belgian chocolates?
:26:10. > :26:13.Would have been lovely actually. The milk Tray man! This referendum that
:26:14. > :26:17.we are going to have is on a much more than the four points the Prime
:26:18. > :26:20.Minister's decided to focus on over the last six months and for the next
:26:21. > :26:28.two weeks as well so I think we should all sort of lift ourself
:26:29. > :26:32.sights from -- our sights from the minutiae. I assume your mind hasn't
:26:33. > :26:39.been changed to leave? Not in the least. He asked for nothing, he's
:26:40. > :26:43.got less than nothing, if that's possible, and if you read some of
:26:44. > :26:47.the foreign newspapers, the European newspapers, as I did this morning,
:26:48. > :26:51.even they are ridiculing what he's now
:26:52. > :26:59.even they are ridiculing what he's It's pretty messy. Is your side of
:27:00. > :27:02.the argument Alan you want to stay, is the settlement helpful, can you
:27:03. > :27:08.use it to try to encourage people to say we should stay? He's got the
:27:09. > :27:11.ever closer union sidelined, that doesn't mean political integration,
:27:12. > :27:15.there are some generalised things? It's helpful for the Prime Minister
:27:16. > :27:20.to be saying it's a good deal and recommending it. He's the elected
:27:21. > :27:23.Prime Minister, I basically agree with Miranda, but just to speak up
:27:24. > :27:27.for the Prime Minister, I've heard about people bang on about ever
:27:28. > :27:33.closer union over and again for the last God knows when. It's the phrase
:27:34. > :27:38.from the Treaty of Rome. Ever closer union of the people of Britain with
:27:39. > :27:43.subsidiarity. No-one mentions that, so in that sense, in the context of
:27:44. > :27:47.the package he went out to get, actually if they are your big
:27:48. > :27:54.issues, I don't know why people aren't applauding that. They are not
:27:55. > :27:58.my big issues. There's nothing he could have brought back? That is
:27:59. > :28:04.true, but given that people have been banging on about sovereignty
:28:05. > :28:08.and this preamble to the protocol of ever closer union, he's gone and
:28:09. > :28:12.done something about that. With all due respect, what we do know is that
:28:13. > :28:16.immigration tops the polls in terms of people's concerns. We also had
:28:17. > :28:19.immigration tops the polls in terms Prime Minister who consistently and
:28:20. > :28:23.constantly pledged to do something about immigration, and he hasn't
:28:24. > :28:28.actually dealt with that at all. I'm only defending him so far! Let us
:28:29. > :28:36.hear what Michael has to say. This an issue about wages. Michael, is
:28:37. > :28:39.the settlement helpful in terms of the substance or is
:28:40. > :28:41.the settlement helpful in terms of in that it clears the ground and
:28:42. > :28:47.allows the Prime Minister to get in to argue for Britain to stay in? It
:28:48. > :28:50.gives the Prime Minister a clear run to make his argument for the next
:28:51. > :28:54.few weeks without any Tories in the Cabinet being able to say anything
:28:55. > :29:02.different. So that's white important. -- quite important. It
:29:03. > :29:05.seems he's done enough to scare off Theresa May and Boris Johnson who
:29:06. > :29:09.might have come out against it. It seems that the tide of events is
:29:10. > :29:13.moving away from them which is significant in that respect but I
:29:14. > :29:15.absolutely agree with Miranda that the settlement has nothing to do
:29:16. > :29:23.with the case really. You should be voting on whether you want to be in
:29:24. > :29:26.the European Union or not and the leave case should be principally
:29:27. > :29:31.about where we want decisions to be made. Do you want them to be made by
:29:32. > :29:37.a British Parliament which is accountable to us or not. You say it
:29:38. > :29:40.may have scared off Theresa May, not entirely clear if it's scared off
:29:41. > :29:45.Boris Johnson yet. I'm sure he's watching the polls closely to make a
:29:46. > :29:52.big issue of principle on this. In Poland? ! A YouGov poll in the Times
:29:53. > :29:56.tomorrow has leave 45%, remain 36%, take out the don't knows and it's
:29:57. > :30:05.56-44. Maybe one of the big beasts who is
:30:06. > :30:09.Euro-sceptic, if there are more polls like that, they may pitch in
:30:10. > :30:15.with the campaign. From my point of view, let's hope
:30:16. > :30:23.that is the case. Are you an outer? Of course. I am worried about the
:30:24. > :30:27.consequences of voting to remain. It is the opposite of what David
:30:28. > :30:31.Cameron says. We will have no more influence on trying to stop the
:30:32. > :30:35.things we do not want, because the European Union will know we can
:30:36. > :30:41.never again threatened to leave. They need not worry what Britain
:30:42. > :30:46.thinks, because that horse will have bolted. We would still have the 2011
:30:47. > :30:53.European referendum act which allows us to vote on any further movement
:30:54. > :30:56.of powers from London to Brussels. Yes, although such referendums were
:30:57. > :31:01.promised again and again after treaty change and none was held.
:31:02. > :31:05.Don't you think one of the things that has happened in the last few
:31:06. > :31:08.years is that all of the talk from previous Prime Minister is about
:31:09. > :31:16.Britain at the heart of Europe, that era has gone. Everyone now has
:31:17. > :31:20.really accepted the idea that Britain and the British people want
:31:21. > :31:26.a sort of associate membership, something different from the idea of
:31:27. > :31:30.a crusading central role in the EU. I think that favours the remain
:31:31. > :31:37.campaign, even though the polls look tricky. But really what you are
:31:38. > :31:43.saying... We will carry on moaning about it but we will vote to remain
:31:44. > :31:46.and moan, essentially. Because all the things you and your party
:31:47. > :31:52.believed in for all those years have been shown to be very bad and
:31:53. > :31:56.damaging, now it is safe to remaining in the European Union.
:31:57. > :32:00.That seems extraordinary coming from you. History has moved on, the
:32:01. > :32:10.European Union is something different. Let me come to Diane.
:32:11. > :32:13.This poll tomorrow, the polls have been wrong, the poll was wrong for
:32:14. > :32:19.the Scottish referendum in the final weekend, but this is an interesting
:32:20. > :32:23.poll. Given that you are ten points ahead in this poll, if you actually
:32:24. > :32:31.had a leader and were not look knocking lumps out of each other,
:32:32. > :32:34.think how big your lead might be. I think the announcement is going to
:32:35. > :32:41.be that we are going to be back in the go campaign. Vote leaves have
:32:42. > :32:46.managed to self-destruct this week. Their two lead members have
:32:47. > :32:59.effectively... This is the one with Peter Bowden. You say that Ukip is
:33:00. > :33:05.going to do that? Absolutely. What about leave. EU? That will be part
:33:06. > :33:10.of the process, one of the components. There have been numerous
:33:11. > :33:14.overtures to them, numerous overtures to say, come on, let's
:33:15. > :33:21.area our differences, work towards the same goal. They have rebuffed
:33:22. > :33:26.those again and again. This week, there have been changes at board
:33:27. > :33:34.level. You still have not sorted it out. They have not. So who is going
:33:35. > :33:41.to lead the campaign? That is to be decided. Aren't you running out of
:33:42. > :33:44.time? The moment this deal is done, the Prime Minister becomes the
:33:45. > :33:50.leader, doing it day fact already, he is the leader, the Prime
:33:51. > :33:54.Minister, and he will swing particularly Conservative votes. Who
:33:55. > :33:59.is your lead going to be? Can I correct you on one thing? We still
:34:00. > :34:02.have to get to the 18th of February before the other 27 member states
:34:03. > :34:08.decide they will accept what is on the table. That is a fair point, and
:34:09. > :34:16.the Prime Minister cannot afford for this deal to be significantly
:34:17. > :34:22.watered down. His own side already thinks it is as weak as water
:34:23. > :34:26.anyway. If anything, there might be more rabbits out of the hat before
:34:27. > :34:31.the 19th of February, or by the 22nd when it comes to Parliament. But you
:34:32. > :34:36.just reminded me about the eurozone. If your concerns are about Britain's
:34:37. > :34:40.position as a non-Eurozone country, and there are nine at the moment and
:34:41. > :34:45.there are likely to be only two, that is the one bit of the package I
:34:46. > :34:49.thought was more than a sideshow. That is fairly substantial, what he
:34:50. > :34:55.has achieved, to play devils advocate again. Are you in danger of
:34:56. > :35:00.losing the campaign? Of course, it is a plebiscite, you can go either
:35:01. > :35:05.way. No one should be complacent. It looks like you have a lot of the
:35:06. > :35:09.press against you. The headlines are hostile. It is not just the press,
:35:10. > :35:14.look at the statements from other European leaders. They are already
:35:15. > :35:18.talking about some aspects being discriminatory, these are the words
:35:19. > :35:24.they are using, already pushing back and saying, it is not something that
:35:25. > :35:29.we can sell. They have to sell it domestically. This is not just a UK
:35:30. > :35:35.issue, it is domestic politics for France, Germany... That suggests the
:35:36. > :35:41.package is substantial. It is not substantial but all the other
:35:42. > :35:47.European countries... No, what I am saying, Alan... Of course, it is a
:35:48. > :35:53.sideshow but not a bad sideshow. We only have four months of this, I
:35:54. > :36:00.can't wait to get stuck in. In 1975, only the morning Star came out for
:36:01. > :36:07.leaving. Circulation of 14,000. It will be different this time. Do they
:36:08. > :36:10.still have 14,000? That extraordinary Daily Mail front page
:36:11. > :36:14.yesterday, who will speak for England, you will have some extreme
:36:15. > :36:18.rhetoric. Again, the one thing I agree with is that they said this
:36:19. > :36:21.was a historic moment and it was about more than David Cameron. We
:36:22. > :36:26.will have more historic moments. Now, when it comes to choosing music
:36:27. > :36:30.for our films here on This Week, Sure, Alan likes to think he knows
:36:31. > :36:35.what the kidz are getting down to. But Michael's knowledge of Chicago
:36:36. > :36:38.'juke', Atlanta 'trap', and East London 'grime'
:36:39. > :36:42.is breath-takingly encyclopaedic. So when we told Michael
:36:43. > :36:46.we were planning to discuss the role of popular music in electoral
:36:47. > :36:48.politics, he was almost giddy with excitement and that's why
:36:49. > :36:50.we decided to put campaign music # Finally I can see
:36:51. > :37:09.you crystal clear #. Donald Trump might be striking
:37:10. > :37:12.a chord with some Americans but not This week Adele added her name
:37:13. > :37:17.to a catalogue of artist who've complained about Republicans using
:37:18. > :37:24.their music at campaign rallies. So is it a question of musical
:37:25. > :37:27.differences between artists and candidates, or just something
:37:28. > :37:30.about Republican politics? Democratic hopeful Bernie Sanders
:37:31. > :37:35.managed to find himself a backing # This land was made
:37:36. > :37:42.for you and me #. Taking to the stage with Indie
:37:43. > :37:45.rockers, Vampire Weekend, Is politics a part of pop
:37:46. > :37:51.like it used to be? Musicians are certainly wary
:37:52. > :37:53.of Party Politics nowadays, though with Charlotte Church
:37:54. > :37:57.and others hitting the road tonight for the Jeremy Corbyn
:37:58. > :38:00.for Prime Minister tour, perhaps red wedge
:38:01. > :38:03.is back in fashion. # All my life, there's
:38:04. > :38:08.panic in America #. Election time and you can't escape
:38:09. > :38:11.the news from the US as Razorlight's Johnny Borell once
:38:12. > :38:14.sang, but when it's all eyes and ears on the campaign trail,
:38:15. > :38:34.are politicians and artists just out That was Johnny Borrell, and here he
:38:35. > :38:38.is, welcome to the programme. If a politician you did not agree with
:38:39. > :38:42.whose views bore no resemblance to yours used his campaign to come
:38:43. > :38:54.onstage to one of your songs, it bother you? I would be annoyed, and
:38:55. > :38:59.I would very quickly say, sorry, please don't use our music, or my
:39:00. > :39:08.voice. And would you reach for lawyers? It's only the lawyers that
:39:09. > :39:19.win in that case, isn't it? But it would follow that you sympathise
:39:20. > :39:23.with Adele? Absolutely, yes. I think Donald Trump has used music, has
:39:24. > :39:28.found that in using almost anybody's music, they are turning round and
:39:29. > :39:36.saying, I am sorry, could you not do that. Michael Stipe from REM said do
:39:37. > :39:39.not use our music or my voice for your moronic show rather of a
:39:40. > :39:45.campaign. Neal Young came out as well, which I think is right. Quite
:39:46. > :39:48.a lot of American artists have complained about politicians using
:39:49. > :39:53.their music but overwhelmingly it has been Republican politicians. I
:39:54. > :40:00.guess because most artists are Democrats. Yes, I think most artists
:40:01. > :40:07.are definitely Liberal and left-leaning. If you bear in mind
:40:08. > :40:13.that American politics, even the centre, is far more to the right
:40:14. > :40:19.than where we are in Britain almost anywhere... Bernie Sanders is doing
:40:20. > :40:23.his best to change that. Absolutely. It is wonderful to have somebody who
:40:24. > :40:27.refers to himself as a socialist getting half the democratic votes in
:40:28. > :40:32.a state in America. You would not have imagined that six months ago.
:40:33. > :40:39.He could win New Hampshire, to. After that, the going might get
:40:40. > :40:44.rough when he heads south. Do you think it could help a politician to
:40:45. > :40:49.have a really good, upbeat music that they can become associated
:40:50. > :40:55.with? We always remember things can only get better with Tony Blair and
:40:56. > :41:03.that helped for a while. Sure. Music is very powerful. When you put it to
:41:04. > :41:07.images, it can have a great effect that talking, standing on a soapbox
:41:08. > :41:13.and renting is not going to have. It is interesting, we are talking about
:41:14. > :41:17.Bernie Sanders, he had an advert just now which is essentially a
:41:18. > :41:21.music video. It is Simon and Garfunkel's America and there is no
:41:22. > :41:24.talking, just images of Americans. At the end it says, this was
:41:25. > :41:29.approved by the Bernie Sanders campaign. I don't think Paul Simon
:41:30. > :41:36.and Art Garfunkel will be too unhappy about that. They might want
:41:37. > :41:41.some royalties. I assume they will get them. It is very powerful
:41:42. > :41:48.because it is just a music video. Musicians and 1980s got more
:41:49. > :41:52.involved in party politics. They get involved in issues, I would suggest,
:41:53. > :42:02.now. You have got involved in issues, but not party politics. Yes,
:42:03. > :42:11.I think that my own personal feeling was being in the media through the
:42:12. > :42:15.band, I felt it was right to talk about things you thought were
:42:16. > :42:22.important. And to highlight them. Which was interesting, because there
:42:23. > :42:27.was a lot of cynicism about that. It was like, this guy is trying to be a
:42:28. > :42:31.save the world rock star, saving the rainforests or something. But it
:42:32. > :42:34.wasn't me, or us doing anything in terms of saving the world, but the
:42:35. > :42:42.people who were working for Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace, etc. They
:42:43. > :42:47.are the job. But the media wasn't looking at them. So I was
:42:48. > :42:52.highlighting it. I think you should do that. I think you have a
:42:53. > :42:57.responsibility to do that. You are the Labour Party's music guru. Did
:42:58. > :43:04.they ever consult you, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, what music to...
:43:05. > :43:07.Never. Bill Clinton, don't stop thinking about tomorrow, Fleetwood
:43:08. > :43:14.Mac, was a wonderful campaign song. It fitted the moment. But we
:43:15. > :43:20.followed it up five years later with Lighthouse family, and it quite have
:43:21. > :43:27.the same resonance. But it is a powerful tool, not just in America
:43:28. > :43:32.but here. Michael might get Wagner. If you had not used that all the
:43:33. > :43:36.time, you might have held onto your seat. Stalin was particular about
:43:37. > :43:45.his music. Churchill didn't care, and neither did Roosevelt.
:43:46. > :43:50.Interesting. It may be an overused quote, but the as that Association
:43:51. > :43:57.of politics is essential in the idea of fascism. Whereas the artistic
:43:58. > :44:05.process is politicising the aspect it. I think all totalitarian regimes
:44:06. > :44:10.did exactly that. What are you up to at the moment? We just finished an
:44:11. > :44:16.album. It is no longer Razorlight. I am taking a break from that. I have
:44:17. > :44:19.a new group and we are playing at the 100 club in London. Thank you
:44:20. > :44:22.for being with us. That's your lot for tonight
:44:23. > :44:24.folks but not for us. Because we've all been invited back
:44:25. > :44:27.to Comrade Corbyn's bedsit, in Finsbury Park to pick up
:44:28. > :44:29.some extra leaflets. But we leave you tonight
:44:30. > :44:37.with the one that got away, It was once said of Alexander
:44:38. > :44:41.the Great that "he wept, for there were no more
:44:42. > :44:44.worlds to conquer". Nighty night, don't let his mastery
:44:45. > :44:50.of the Charleston bite.