:00:00. > :00:14.Join us in our one horse town, for a political remake
:00:15. > :00:17.of The Magnificent, or not so magnificent,
:00:18. > :00:28.Shoot-out in the Westminster village, as Tory gunslingers finally
:00:29. > :00:35.LBC cowboy Nick Ferrari is our marauding bandit.
:00:36. > :00:39.Boris' move this week could see him on the way to being the number one
:00:40. > :00:51.will the dust ever clear before the public cast their votes?
:00:52. > :00:56.The Observer's Andrew Rawnsley has an itchy trigger finger.
:00:57. > :00:58.It's high noon for Sheriff Cameron in Dodge City.
:00:59. > :01:07.Will the Labour posse ride out to help him win his referendum?
:01:08. > :01:09.And quickest off the draw in the United States,
:01:10. > :01:13.Republican front-runner Donald Trump is winning the Wild West.
:01:14. > :01:22.Ana Matronic from the Scissor Sisters is diving for cover.
:01:23. > :01:33.Once upon a Time in America we had some pretty great politicians. Now,
:01:34. > :01:34.just a bunch of Tumbleweed. I see more sharpshooters in the This Week
:01:35. > :01:38.studio. Once you've met them,
:01:39. > :01:40.you'll never forget them. Now, hands up if you've
:01:41. > :01:51.ever been invited to But I know a man who has:
:01:52. > :01:57.Justice Minister Michael Gove, who was guest of honour last week
:01:58. > :02:00.at Chez Boris Johnson, for a wild night of anguished
:02:01. > :02:04.Brexit machinations - as they considered the pros and cons
:02:05. > :02:07.of the EU and stitching up Liz Hurley was invited too,
:02:08. > :02:12.no doubt for her intellectual insights into the Commission's
:02:13. > :02:15.attitude to subsidiarity and the ECB's approach
:02:16. > :02:19.to quantitative easing(!) Problems on the Northern Line
:02:20. > :02:24.at Angel, I'm told. For Downing Street euro guru
:02:25. > :02:28.Oliver Letwin was on hand, via speaker-phone - I kid you not -
:02:29. > :02:34.to talk them through the details of a Parliamentary Sovereignty Bill
:02:35. > :02:37.which Call-Me-Dave had agreed to draft just to keep BoGo onside
:02:38. > :02:42.during the referendum. But, after 20 minutes
:02:43. > :02:45.of Dearest Olly droning on about the constitution,
:02:46. > :02:47.as they tucked into their grilled goats' cheese on a bed of pureed
:02:48. > :02:52.beetroot in a balsamic drizzle, BoGo and GoGove decided it was time
:02:53. > :02:57.to hang up and Vote Leave, thereby illustrating
:02:58. > :03:00.an infallible Whitehall maxim - if you want something screwed up,
:03:01. > :03:04.just involve Olly the Wally. Speaking of people who bore
:03:05. > :03:06.for Britain in a reformed European Union, I'm joined
:03:07. > :03:09.on the sofa tonight by two people who believe in their own genius -
:03:10. > :03:15.think of them as the Kanye West and the Mae West of
:03:16. > :03:18.late-night political chat. I speak, of course,
:03:19. > :03:23.of #ramalammydingdong David Lammy. And #sadmanonatrain Michael -
:03:24. > :03:40."Where's Ma Kilt, I'm Michael, your moment of the week?
:03:41. > :03:44.Downing Street keeps organising these letters about the European
:03:45. > :03:47.Union. All of them irk me, but the one that really irked me was the one
:03:48. > :03:54.they organised of generals and admirals. They were cajoled into
:03:55. > :03:56.saying they thought our security depended on remaining in the
:03:57. > :04:01.European Union. I thought how furious Downing Street would be if,
:04:02. > :04:05.habitually, generals and admirals gave political opinions. They are
:04:06. > :04:11.not there to give political opinions. It is politicians who make
:04:12. > :04:15.policy. I thought to myself, what sort of society is it where generals
:04:16. > :04:19.and admirals have political opinions? I remember, it is in
:04:20. > :04:23.authoritarian societies, in dictatorships. And the letter gave
:04:24. > :04:30.no reason why security would be better. And they put a general's
:04:31. > :04:42.name on it and he had not signed. Indeed. Your moment? My moment is
:04:43. > :04:47.the YouTube phenomenon this week of the 106-year-old woman who goes to
:04:48. > :04:55.the White House for the first time and ends up dancing with President
:04:56. > :04:59.Obama and Michelle Obama, who says, I want to be like you when I grow
:05:00. > :05:13.up. A wonderful black history moment. Wonderful. It is never nice
:05:14. > :05:25.to be jilted, and modern manners makes it worse, now that the default
:05:26. > :05:30.way is by text. Imagine the Prime Minister's anger and dismay when
:05:31. > :05:36.Boris' rejection popped up on his mobile phone only ten minutes before
:05:37. > :05:41.he told the world of his betrayal. Hardly surprising that Mr Cameron
:05:42. > :05:44.sounded like a spurned lover when he confronted him in public. Always sad
:05:45. > :05:54.when old Etonian 's fall out and turn Westminster it -- into a brutal
:05:55. > :05:58.form of the school's war game. But Boris cannot be bought by the
:05:59. > :06:02.baubles of power. Or maybe it was the prospect of power that made him
:06:03. > :06:11.do it. Here is his co-presenter on LBC Radio, Nick Ferrari.
:06:12. > :06:21.I've asked Boris about the EU more times than David Cameron has ridden
:06:22. > :06:26.If he didn't get the deal, then he himself...
:06:27. > :06:31.You'd be prepared to campaign for an exit.
:06:32. > :06:37.And he's gone back and forth on the issue as much as your average
:06:38. > :06:45.Because he is torn between the Scylla of disloyalty
:06:46. > :06:49.to his old friend Cameron and the Charybdis of what he sees
:06:50. > :06:53.as an unworkable political institution.
:06:54. > :07:00.Boris' ambition is doubtlessly vaunting.
:07:01. > :07:02.But this week ridiculous allegation after
:07:03. > :07:05.ridiculous allegation have been volleyed at the mayor.
:07:06. > :07:17.Critics have been quick to lob claims that Boris'
:07:18. > :07:22.But for all the buffoonery, this is a principled man
:07:23. > :07:31.who's expressed a well articulated and genuine view.
:07:32. > :07:34.Boris can put a powerful top spin on any argument
:07:35. > :07:38.and I think those on the remain side aren right to be worried.
:07:39. > :07:44.I think he could just steal victory from them on June 23rd.
:07:45. > :07:46.Because you can focus on him inventing stories
:07:47. > :07:50.about whiff-whaff, or dangling limply from a zip wire while waving
:07:51. > :07:53.the union flag, or blustering his way
:07:54. > :07:55.through a radio grilling, where he had very few facts
:07:56. > :08:03.# Cos you're hot, then you're cold
:08:04. > :08:20.All this whiff-whaff can be quite a mare.
:08:21. > :08:22.The mayor might have firmly grabbed the ball
:08:23. > :08:25.that came free from the back of the scrum and, to mix my sporting
:08:26. > :08:27.metaphors, he plays an open-handed game.
:08:28. > :08:30.And it might just deliver him the Prime Ministership
:08:31. > :08:41.From Bounce Ping Pong Bar in Farringdon to a volley of drivel
:08:42. > :08:48.here on This Week, Nick Ferrari joins us now.
:08:49. > :08:56.Welcome back on the programme. Nick, are you really asking us to believe
:08:57. > :09:00.that in coming to this decision, Boris never considered what it might
:09:01. > :09:06.mean for his chances to become Prime Minister? No, I think he has seen it
:09:07. > :09:10.as an opportunity as well but I think it is an absolute game
:09:11. > :09:14.changer. Suddenly you can say you are in favour of Brexit and it has a
:09:15. > :09:19.degree of credibility that would never be afforded by the likes of
:09:20. > :09:22.George Galloway. Of course he has seized his opportunity but I did
:09:23. > :09:26.believe him when he was outside his home and he said he had wrestled
:09:27. > :09:32.with his conscience. I don't think he found it easy. If his conscience
:09:33. > :09:38.had said, if I do this I will never be Prime Minister, would he have
:09:39. > :09:40.done it? Probably not. I see the opportunity he has taken but he has
:09:41. > :09:48.made it interesting for people like you and me. He always does. Michael,
:09:49. > :09:52.it was interesting, when the Prime Minister was on the Andrew Marr
:09:53. > :09:57.Show, he positioned himself with regard to Nigel Farage, four times.
:09:58. > :10:03.Now he will be asked, it is you and Boris Johnson. It is the face that
:10:04. > :10:08.the leave campaign was looking for. Yes, and Michael Gove, too. He is
:10:09. > :10:13.not as popular as Boris but he gives it a lot of intellectual clout. When
:10:14. > :10:16.the Justice Secretary says that the European Court is not going to
:10:17. > :10:22.respect this agreement, that carries a certain amount of weight because
:10:23. > :10:27.he is Justice Secretary. I am very pleased to have Boris onside, but I
:10:28. > :10:31.think Nick has probably produced the most tongue in cheek contribution to
:10:32. > :10:40.our programme in the last 480 episodes. It does mean that the
:10:41. > :10:44.leave side have the most intelligent cabinet minister in the government
:10:45. > :10:49.and the most popular Tory politician, perhaps the most popular
:10:50. > :10:53.politician in the country. It may not change the result but it
:10:54. > :10:57.certainly gives the campaign are much bigger shout. Yes, but they
:10:58. > :11:02.also have someone who on February the 7th said that leaving would be
:11:03. > :11:08.messy and go on for ages, and one week later changed his mind. It was
:11:09. > :11:14.beautiful orchestration and theatre. I suspect he got some spin advice
:11:15. > :11:19.from Nick, the next Andy Coulson, but clearly this is about an old
:11:20. > :11:24.fight that goes back to Eton. It is about Boris' desire to walk into
:11:25. > :11:31.Number Ten. Whatever happens in June, David Cameron is finished. He
:11:32. > :11:34.is finished if he wins. Why? Rather like in Scotland, there will be a
:11:35. > :11:40.backlash within the Conservative ranks about the guy that kept us in.
:11:41. > :11:46.And if he loses, Boris steps in. That is why he did it. At this
:11:47. > :11:50.moment, Boris is a figure that has vacillated, and that is never good
:11:51. > :11:59.if you actually want the serious job of running the country. I think it
:12:00. > :12:08.is an example of Boris' of wanting to have his cake and eat it. Even if
:12:09. > :12:11.it votes to remain, and I don't think Mr Cameron will be holed below
:12:12. > :12:17.the water line if the country votes to remain. But even if there is a
:12:18. > :12:23.vote to remain, when it comes to the next leadership the Tories will have
:12:24. > :12:28.remorse, and the man who led the leave campaign still has a chance of
:12:29. > :12:31.being leader. You can never discount someone like Boris. What intrigues
:12:32. > :12:35.me is the relationship between him and Cameron. I think both of them
:12:36. > :12:40.cannot quite believe how the other got where they are. I think Johnson
:12:41. > :12:44.thinks, how did he get to Number Ten. Cameron thinks, how can he make
:12:45. > :12:49.such an asked of himself and get away with it. The dynamic is
:12:50. > :12:51.such an asked of himself and get fascinating. I think Boris
:12:52. > :12:54.such an asked of himself and get calculation right because the way
:12:55. > :12:57.the Conservatives elect their leader is that members of Parliament select
:12:58. > :13:02.two candidates who are put before the mass membership. The mass party
:13:03. > :13:07.membership is very Eurosceptical. They nearly always vote for them or
:13:08. > :13:11.euro-sceptic of the two candidates. They voted for David Cameron because
:13:12. > :13:17.they thought he was the more Eurosceptical of the candidates.
:13:18. > :13:19.they thought he was the more great puzzle to me is why did
:13:20. > :13:27.calculation. Do you agree with David calculation. Do you agree with David
:13:28. > :13:29.Lammy that even if it is a vote to remain, Cameron is finished?
:13:30. > :13:33.Lammy that even if it is a vote to that he has told us he will not
:13:34. > :13:36.fight the next election, so he is finished in
:13:37. > :13:36.fight the next election, so he is Blair was finished as soon
:13:37. > :13:41.fight the next election, so he is made clear he was not going on and
:13:42. > :13:44.on. There will come a point when power will move away from the Prime
:13:45. > :13:46.on. There will come a point when Minister, and that will be
:13:47. > :13:49.on. There will come a point when than he hopes or thinks. It is clear
:13:50. > :13:49.that the Prime Minister was surprised by this.
:13:50. > :13:57.that the Prime Minister was believe he was going to lose Mr
:13:58. > :13:59.that the Prime Minister was usual suspects, Iain Duncan-Smith
:14:00. > :14:09.and John usual suspects, Iain Duncan-Smith
:14:10. > :14:11.context I have, you never quite know where you are.
:14:12. > :14:20.context I have, you never quite know He will sell you down the river. And
:14:21. > :14:30.he has done it to David Cameron. The way he reacted to the two, he
:14:31. > :14:35.did put the "bully" in the Bullingdon Club. The first broadside
:14:36. > :14:38.that he fires, he's hit the sweet spot because you look at the
:14:39. > :14:42.front-pages today and Cameron is limbering up to get him out. Those
:14:43. > :14:50.two - this is the opening exchanges - and they have got through... It is
:14:51. > :14:54.all bully, bully, bully. As you say, it was this morning, the headline
:14:55. > :15:01.was that Gove is going to be sacked for what he said. This is
:15:02. > :15:04.to the assurances... To be fair, Downing Street did move to slap that
:15:05. > :15:06.to the assurances... To be fair, down first thing this morning. I
:15:07. > :15:10.wonder how it got there in the first place. What did you think about
:15:11. > :15:17.that? I could never believe Downing Street would speak with two voices -
:15:18. > :15:24.maybe three or four! My hope of how there may be a Leave vote is the
:15:25. > :15:29.bullying will make people sick. When they see all the generals cajoled
:15:30. > :15:32.into writing a letter, Cabinet Ministers threatened because they
:15:33. > :15:36.say what is on their mind, people will say if this is good for
:15:37. > :15:39.business, for generals, for bankers, if the Prime Minister wants to shut
:15:40. > :15:44.everybody up, I might vote against this lot. If there is one race on
:15:45. > :15:54.earth you don't bully into things, it's the Brits. We don't take
:15:55. > :15:59.bullying. We don't. I'm not going to ask for a prediction. As things
:16:00. > :16:03.stand now, given everything that's happened in the first week, how do
:16:04. > :16:11.you think the result would go if we had the vote tomorrow? Because the
:16:12. > :16:14.Leave campaigns are in disarray, I would say that we would vote to stay
:16:15. > :16:20.in. Tighter than you may have thought a week or a month ago? The
:16:21. > :16:25.refugee crisis, frankly... That is a developing event. It is a real
:16:26. > :16:33.problem. The Prime Minister wants... It's a vote on immigration. The
:16:34. > :16:37.Prime Minister was worried about the migrant crisis, but the fact is we
:16:38. > :16:43.have a migrant crisis every day of the week. What do you think? It is
:16:44. > :16:47.probably remain at the moment. We have a Metropolitan focus, and it is
:16:48. > :16:50.very different outside London. I think it's a bit like shy Tories,
:16:51. > :16:55.there may be lots of people who don't want to say they are leaving,
:16:56. > :16:58.but do want to leave. There will be differential abstention, old people
:16:59. > :17:01.are more likely to vote than young people. And just as we couldn't
:17:02. > :17:05.identify Tories last time, many of those Tories who come out to vote
:17:06. > :17:09.will be leavers. So the opinion polls will have to be taken with a
:17:10. > :17:12.pinch of salt. Week one to Brexit, no question about it. They have won
:17:13. > :17:16.the battle. They haven't won the war. It will be tight. They are
:17:17. > :17:19.rattled. The remains are rattled. Thank you.
:17:20. > :17:21.Now, it's late - Chai Blue Nun Latte late.
:17:22. > :17:23.So pour yourself another one, and feel the sugar rush -
:17:24. > :17:26.because waiting in the wings, Ana Matronic from the Scissor
:17:27. > :17:30.Sisters is here to discuss coming to terms with Trump.
:17:31. > :17:33.And if you want a sense of the incoherent anger bouncing
:17:34. > :17:37.around inside Donald Trump's mind, just take a look at our Twitter
:17:38. > :17:43.feed, our Fleecebook page, and Gordon Brown's Intergalactic
:17:44. > :17:51.Now, here on This Week we always listen to our mothers...
:17:52. > :17:56.That's why David always wears a proper suit...
:17:57. > :18:02.And Michael even knows the words to the second verse
:18:03. > :18:05.of the National Anthem - though we won't ask,
:18:06. > :18:10.So thank goodness, a witty Labour MP heckled David Cameron
:18:11. > :18:13.during a rather predictable Prime Minister's Questions,
:18:14. > :18:15.asking what Call-Me-Dave's Mum would make of her son's cutting
:18:16. > :18:20.We're grateful for the question and the response because it's given
:18:21. > :18:23.Andrew Rawnsley something other than Boris Johnson to talk
:18:24. > :18:34.about in his round-up of the political week.
:18:35. > :18:36.MUSIC: Theme from The Magnificent Seven
:18:37. > :18:38.There were five members of the Cabinet supporting exit, the famous
:18:39. > :18:41.five of that time, and then we were joined by Michael Gove, so we became
:18:42. > :18:45.six, and, of course, now Boris has arrived and so...
:18:46. > :18:54.I'm just hoping we don't become The Hateful Eight!
:18:55. > :18:58.Well, partner, your bunch also includes "Wild" Nigel Farage,
:18:59. > :19:03.Do they deserve to be called "hateful"?
:19:04. > :19:06.David Cameron can think of stronger words.
:19:07. > :19:15.When it came to the Gunfight at the Referendum Corral,
:19:16. > :19:18.Sheriff Cameron always knew he would be confronted
:19:19. > :19:21.by some Cabinet outlaws, but the Prime Minister had been
:19:22. > :19:26.hoping they would be confined to more obscure Tory personalities.
:19:27. > :19:30.So he was shocked when Michael "The Lawman" Gove joined the rebel
:19:31. > :19:35.posse and he was taken aback when that blond bandit from the wild
:19:36. > :19:41.frontiers of Islington saddled up with the Out gang.
:19:42. > :19:45.Boris Johnson, the man with no shame.
:19:46. > :19:47.I have decided, after a huge amount of heartache,
:19:48. > :19:50.because I did not want to do anything - I wanted...
:19:51. > :19:55.The last thing I wanted was to go against David Cameron
:19:56. > :19:59.But, after a great deal of heartache, I don't think
:20:00. > :20:03.I will be advocating Vote Leave, or whatever the team
:20:04. > :20:14.More like power ache, so say the friends
:20:15. > :20:17.They report that the Prime Minister regards this as an act
:20:18. > :20:20.of unforgivable treachery, motivated by sheer vanity
:20:21. > :20:27."Buffalo" Boris is just after the Sheriff's badge.
:20:28. > :20:30.In the hope of keeping the next four months civilised,
:20:31. > :20:35.Tory MPs have been urged not to turn it into a saloon bar brawl,
:20:36. > :20:38.which didn't stop their leader breaking a bottle over the head
:20:39. > :20:48.I believe that Britain will be stronger, safer and better off
:20:49. > :20:51.by remaining in a reformed European Union.
:20:52. > :21:02.I have no other agenda than what is best for our country.
:21:03. > :21:06.Much of the media coverage has presented the momentous choice
:21:07. > :21:09.facing the United Kingdom as a shootout between these two
:21:10. > :21:17.But this is - let's not forget this - everyone's country
:21:18. > :21:27.It's worth remembering that this referendum is about...
:21:28. > :21:30.is actually about the future of our country, not the future
:21:31. > :21:44.Good to see "No Cattle" Nick back in town.
:21:45. > :21:47.The result will greatly depend on whether the Labour Party can
:21:48. > :21:51.mobilise its supporters to vote for EU membership.
:21:52. > :21:54.And that's a concern for pro-Europeans, given
:21:55. > :21:59.the reputation of Labour as the gang that can't shoot straight.
:22:00. > :22:03.Jeremy "Old Timer" Corbyn is a lifelong
:22:04. > :22:07.Eurosceptic and struggles to be a persuasive advocate
:22:08. > :22:10.So it's important that other members of
:22:11. > :22:14.the Labour posse show they can hit a target.
:22:15. > :22:20.The Mayor of London, who has been touted
:22:21. > :22:24.as the leader of the leave campaign, said yesterday that Britain would be
:22:25. > :22:30.easily able to negotiate a large number of trade deals at great speed
:22:31. > :22:37.because we used to run the greatest, biggest empire in the world.
:22:38. > :22:45.Will he invite the mayor to wake up to the 21st century?
:22:46. > :22:50.Deadeye Dave has most of the bigger guns saddling up with the in gang,
:22:51. > :22:54.including every living former sheriff.
:22:55. > :22:57.I think and believe and certainly desperately hope that when people
:22:58. > :23:02.look at this issue, realise how much instability,
:23:03. > :23:06.uncertainty, difficulty the country would have if it actually pulled out
:23:07. > :23:08.of the largest political union, biggest commercial market
:23:09. > :23:11.in the world, right on our doorstep, I hope
:23:12. > :23:22.Compared with the passions ignited by Europe,
:23:23. > :23:26.Prime Minister's Questions was as arid as Monument Valley.
:23:27. > :23:29.Not so much High Noon as dull moon, until
:23:30. > :23:33.someone on the Labour side livened things up with a heckle
:23:34. > :23:40.I think I know what my mother would say.
:23:41. > :23:42.She would look across the dispatch box
:23:43. > :23:45.and she would say, "Put on a proper suit, do up your tie
:23:46. > :23:52.There followed an excruciating 30 seconds of unified
:23:53. > :24:00.Tory hilarity, before Jeremy Corbyn got his iron out of the holster.
:24:01. > :24:03.My late mother would have said, "Stand up for the principle
:24:04. > :24:08."of a health service free at the point of use for everyone".
:24:09. > :24:11.And my ma would say, "Don't rope me into this
:24:12. > :24:20.With going on for half of his MPs against him,
:24:21. > :24:22.can Sheriff Cameron get through the next four months
:24:23. > :24:27.without things turning really nasty in Dodge City?
:24:28. > :24:35.Andrew Rawnsley there at the Django Bango cowboy town
:24:36. > :24:44.And we're joined now by cowgirl Miranda Green and Ukip outlaw,
:24:45. > :25:01.Outlaw? Mr Farage has removed you, what have you done, to upset Big
:25:02. > :25:07.Nige? To get sacked again! I don't know. Obviously, disappointed that
:25:08. > :25:17.I'm no longer Deputy Chairman. I have plenty of other titles... What
:25:18. > :25:22.have you done to joup set him? -- upset him? I don't think I have done
:25:23. > :25:27.anything to upset him. My co-chairman got the e-mail this week
:25:28. > :25:36.and we have been replaced. These are fresh faces? Well, they... Is it you
:25:37. > :25:41.joining Vote Leave, is that what he doesn't like? You joined the wrong
:25:42. > :25:47.club? I've said that I have joined all the clubs, all the Brexit clubs
:25:48. > :25:49.because I don't see the point in not campaigning with anybody that wants
:25:50. > :25:53.to get out of the European Union. Our members feel the same. He's
:25:54. > :26:00.never forgiven you, since you said to me on the Daily Politics that he
:26:01. > :26:03.was a Marmite character? Which he said himself on several occasions. I
:26:04. > :26:09.have taken a lot of flak since that interview. It is amazing, I still
:26:10. > :26:15.admire you greatly, despite it. I'm amazed you have still come back on!
:26:16. > :26:19.Nigel said he is a Marmite figure and that is the issue here. We need
:26:20. > :26:26.to have a cross-party campaign, lots of people on board, fantastic, Boris
:26:27. > :26:30.has come on board, because we all need to have different ways of
:26:31. > :26:35.tackling the Brexit issue. I will be talking about this at a fringe event
:26:36. > :26:39.in Llandudno on Saturday. I hope Mr Farage turns up. I wouldn't hold
:26:40. > :26:44.your breath. Who would be better to lead the Leave campaign? Would it be
:26:45. > :26:48.Boris or Nigel? I have always said again that I don't think there
:26:49. > :26:53.should be any one person to lead the campaign. I would love to see
:26:54. > :26:57.Michael Gove debate David Cameron. Whether or not that is going to
:26:58. > :27:02.happen - we know Michael Gove will antagonise every teach neR the
:27:03. > :27:05.country. -- teacher in the country. Should it be Nigel or Boris up
:27:06. > :27:10.against the Prime Minister? It could be either. Both would do an
:27:11. > :27:14.excellent job. I think... You have been very loyal for somebody who has
:27:15. > :27:18.just been fired? It is not about me. It is about... It is all about
:27:19. > :27:22.Nigel. It is about country before party. The current thinking is that
:27:23. > :27:28.there might be two teams having that final debate rather than one single
:27:29. > :27:33.person. What evidence can you give us that Mr Corbyn has any conviction
:27:34. > :27:43.for staying in the EU? Let's face it. Jeremy... Let's face it - that
:27:44. > :27:47.is playing for time! He is on the Euro-sceptic wing of the Labour
:27:48. > :27:51.Party. Having said that, he is absolutely an internationalist, he
:27:52. > :27:57.cares a lot about the social union that is the European Union... He was
:27:58. > :28:04.an internationalist in '75 and he voted against. The context in 2016
:28:05. > :28:08.of exiting he is sold on. For that reason, the Labour Party completely
:28:09. > :28:11.is more or less united. The Labour Party has designated Saturday as a
:28:12. > :28:18.day for In campaigning. That's right. What is Mr Corbyn doing? Mr
:28:19. > :28:23.Corbyn, I think is going to a CND rally. Correct. What does that tell
:28:24. > :28:28.you? Interesting. That issue is also important. On the day of the In
:28:29. > :28:33.campaign for Labour. I haven't seen Jeremy's diary. I would be surprised
:28:34. > :28:38.if he's not doing something also on the In campaign. We shall see.
:28:39. > :28:47.Miranda, there is a problem in all this for Mr Cameron, isn't there? If
:28:48. > :28:53.you assume the Tory vote will probably tend to vote Leave rather
:28:54. > :28:58.than Remain, he needs Labour votes to win and with Mr Corbyn, the
:28:59. > :29:03.ability to deliver these Labour votes is under some doubt. It is
:29:04. > :29:10.true. The Remain campaign does look as if it is going to be the Cameron
:29:11. > :29:19.campaign. He is the figurehead, and that is why moments like PMQs this
:29:20. > :29:22.week are really bad news for Remain. This kind of terrible Etonian
:29:23. > :29:31.arrogance is very, very alienating to a lot of people. I do think that
:29:32. > :29:34.it is going to matter how... When Jeremy talks about workers' rights,
:29:35. > :29:38.don't underestimate the power of the unions to communicate with their
:29:39. > :29:43.members the importance of staying in. Alan Johnson is leading the
:29:44. > :29:52.Labour In campaign, he is doing a fantastic job.
:29:53. > :30:03.The thrust of your campaign is workers rights? This country can't
:30:04. > :30:06.deliver workers rights? You sit at home, you generally vote Labour come
:30:07. > :30:09.you listen to the arguments and on this occasion you are listening to
:30:10. > :30:18.arguments from David Cameron and others. How will it galvanise Labour
:30:19. > :30:21.voters if you see David Cameron on television? On this occasion it is
:30:22. > :30:27.preferable to listening to Michael Gove or Boris Johnson. You think Mr
:30:28. > :30:32.Cameron will galvanise Labour voters? People are thinking about
:30:33. > :30:42.security, the place we trade with. They understand that there would be
:30:43. > :30:44.free movement even if we... I think people are largely thinking about
:30:45. > :30:49.immigration because the Prime Minister told them to think about
:30:50. > :30:53.immigration. The Prime Minister told them the main threat was from the EU
:30:54. > :31:01.migrants claiming benefits. I thought all of this was fatuous.
:31:02. > :31:06.Leaving the EU will make that worse. I am afraid the horse has bolted.
:31:07. > :31:10.The Prime Minister has told the country it is about immigration.
:31:11. > :31:15.This gets to the heart of it, which is that in most referendums, the
:31:16. > :31:20.onus is on those who want change to make the case. There is a bias
:31:21. > :31:23.towards the status quo. What's worrying for the Remain side is that
:31:24. > :31:29.it does not feel like that because it feels there is a presumption of
:31:30. > :31:33.risk on either side. So there is a larger job for David Cameron and
:31:34. > :31:37.Alan Johnson and the others on the Remain side, to try to regain ground
:31:38. > :31:44.that in other referendums is already yours. You would only be human if
:31:45. > :31:48.you were Nicola Sturgeon or Jeremy Corbyn not to think, I may want to
:31:49. > :31:53.stay in but politically it is in my interest that the country votes out,
:31:54. > :31:59.because that gives us opportunities we would not have otherwise.
:32:00. > :32:03.Politics is sometimes very self-interested, isn't it? I think
:32:04. > :32:10.what Miranda has said about the status quo is interesting. I could
:32:11. > :32:14.not understand how anybody who voted out in 1975 could vote to stay in
:32:15. > :32:19.now, when the European Union has got so much bigger, so much worse, more
:32:20. > :32:22.powerful, more dictatorial. I just don't know how he can look at
:32:23. > :32:27.himself in the mirror every morning and stand back from the campaign. We
:32:28. > :32:32.are not voting for the status quo. If we vote to remain, the EU will
:32:33. > :32:39.get more power, get more confident about having even more say over us.
:32:40. > :32:45.The safer option is to leave. That is Horlicks. We are not the sick man
:32:46. > :32:59.of Europe today. Look at the economy. That is because we came out
:33:00. > :33:07.of the euro. Look at where we trade. David, you are absolutely right, in
:33:08. > :33:12.1975 we were the sick man of Europe. I will gloss over the fact that it
:33:13. > :33:17.was a Labour government then. But you are right, we were the sick man
:33:18. > :33:22.of Europe. That is why we voted to stay with the winning team, which
:33:23. > :33:29.was Europe. Could you remind me how that will work this time round? And
:33:30. > :33:38.we thought it was a common market. No one said the European Union is
:33:39. > :33:43.perfect. Is the eurozone now the sick man of Europe? You give a bit,
:33:44. > :33:48.you gain a bit. It is about compromise. But on jobs, on
:33:49. > :33:52.terrorism, with the problems with Russia at the moment, the refugee
:33:53. > :33:57.crisis that can only be solved by collective cross-border agreements,
:33:58. > :34:05.are we serious about X sitting at this point? What is the unemployment
:34:06. > :34:13.rate in the eurozone? I don't know. You just said jobs are important. Of
:34:14. > :34:18.course jobs are important. If jobs are so important, why is
:34:19. > :34:22.unemployment rate 11th ascent in the eurozone? Jobs are dependent on
:34:23. > :34:28.exports, on those who come to this country, on the people that go to
:34:29. > :34:32.Europe and take up those jobs. David is doing a brilliant job, and keep
:34:33. > :34:40.at it, but this illustrates the problem. You are having to work very
:34:41. > :34:44.hard. Only with the Eurosceptics. The remaining campaign needs to
:34:45. > :34:47.reinforce the idea that healthy scepticism, a great British trait,
:34:48. > :34:53.should be applied to what the world looks like outside. I feel we may
:34:54. > :35:01.return to these matters in the next 17 weeks! 119 days. I wish it was
:35:02. > :35:06.longer! Now, according to Donald Trump's
:35:07. > :35:09.website, for the bargain price of $32, you too can smell
:35:10. > :35:11.like a Presidential candidate. His fragrance, Success By Trump,
:35:12. > :35:13.apparently "captures the spirit redcurrant, brushed
:35:14. > :35:23.with hints of coriander. As it evolves, the mix of frozen
:35:24. > :35:26.ginger, fresh bamboo leaves and geranium emerge
:35:27. > :35:30.taking centre-stage - while a masculine combination
:35:31. > :35:35.of rich vetiver, tonka bean, birch wood and musk create
:35:36. > :35:48.a powerful presence We won with poorly-educated -
:35:49. > :36:05.I love the poorly-educated. Trump trumped his Republican
:36:06. > :36:08.rivals again this week, storming to victory
:36:09. > :36:11.in the Nevada caucuses. I could stand in the middle
:36:12. > :36:14.of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody He's rewritten the rules
:36:15. > :36:19.of what you can and can't say Clearly, he understands
:36:20. > :36:21.the homeland insecurities felt Donald J Trump is calling
:36:22. > :36:34.for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering
:36:35. > :36:39.the United States. And feeds off the
:36:40. > :36:43.controversy he provokes. TRANSLATION: I say only that this
:36:44. > :36:45.man is not Christian, If and when the Vatican is attacked
:36:46. > :36:51.by Isis, the Pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump
:36:52. > :36:57.would have been President. Barack Obama used to say Trump
:36:58. > :37:00.was running as a joke, But nobody's laughing at the Donald
:37:01. > :37:03.now, so maybe we should start to take his candidacy seriously
:37:04. > :37:08.because the idea of President Trump doesn't sound like
:37:09. > :37:13.a punch line anymore! I'd like to punch him
:37:14. > :37:22.in the face, I'll tell you. And Ana Matronic from
:37:23. > :37:25.the Scissor Sisters joins us now. Thank you. When the British look
:37:26. > :37:41.this they wonder, how is he Thank you. When the British look
:37:42. > :37:46.well? We used to just dismiss him as, he would blow out, crash and
:37:47. > :37:50.burn before Christmas. Now he is the man to beat. What happened? It is
:37:51. > :37:55.disheartening and you are not the only ones wondering how this
:37:56. > :38:01.happened. It is definitely happening in the States as well. I definitely
:38:02. > :38:04.thought this was going to be a Bush-Clinton race. And now it
:38:05. > :38:09.thought this was going to be a like it really could be anybody's.
:38:10. > :38:14.Mrs Clinton still looks like being the Democrat candidate. I think she
:38:15. > :38:20.will and that is really because there is a great, large block of
:38:21. > :38:32.voters in America who are terrified of the word "Socialism". With Bernie
:38:33. > :38:37.Sanders espousing socialism, it will terrify this large block of
:38:38. > :38:42.constituents. But Mr Trump has rewritten campaign strategy script
:38:43. > :38:47.for ever. I follow American politics closely. I just spent ten days in
:38:48. > :38:51.the States. Every time something happens, you think that is it. When
:38:52. > :38:56.the Pope attacked him, he attacks the Pope. A heckler is being thrown
:38:57. > :39:02.out and he says, I want to punch him in the face. If any British
:39:03. > :39:09.candidate said that, it would be toast. Yes. And in my heart of
:39:10. > :39:16.hearts, I still hold out hope that this is a giant performance piece,
:39:17. > :39:18.and it is a giant, elaborate branding campaign and name
:39:19. > :39:26.recognition campaign, and he will eventually pull out. He won't pull
:39:27. > :39:30.out. It seems he is saying inflammatory things just to see what
:39:31. > :39:38.he can get away with. It is shocking, the things he is saying.
:39:39. > :39:42.But in South Carolina, he got the evangelicals, even though he is
:39:43. > :39:48.basically a social Liberal New Yorker, married three times. In
:39:49. > :39:55.Navarre other, a majority, 44% of Hispanics who voted voted for him.
:39:56. > :40:00.-- in Navarre da. It is terrifying. It goes to show the level of
:40:01. > :40:05.disenfranchisement and disillusionment with the American
:40:06. > :40:08.system of government on both sides. It is not just the Conservative
:40:09. > :40:12.people but people on the left as well, which is why there is such a
:40:13. > :40:18.push behind Bernie Sanders. I like what he has to say and I think he is
:40:19. > :40:25.a great candidate. That ship has left the harbour. He cannot win in
:40:26. > :40:30.South Carolina. Donald Trump did not have the support of dyed in the wool
:40:31. > :40:34.Republicans. There was an issue of the new Republic that said, we do
:40:35. > :40:38.not support Trump. This is the Republican establishment. But they
:40:39. > :40:45.couldn't stop him, and that shows how fractured the party is, and how
:40:46. > :40:56.so far away from their voters they are. What is really, really
:40:57. > :41:01.concerning now is that we have a vacancy to fill in the Supreme
:41:02. > :41:07.Court. So the rumblings we heard from the right, which was the dyed
:41:08. > :41:12.in the wool Republicans who do not support Trump would actually support
:41:13. > :41:16.Clinton in the race, wash their hands and comeback in four years,
:41:17. > :41:24.now there is this vacancy, it's not happening. When the Democrats were
:41:25. > :41:29.in a similar position, they did not appoint a Supreme Court judge
:41:30. > :41:37.either. But if it is Trump against Clinton, who is going to win? I
:41:38. > :41:41.honestly think Trump cannot go up against a real politician, somebody
:41:42. > :41:46.who has been at work in Washington for decades. He has no record... But
:41:47. > :41:51.he will run against Washington, that will be his attraction. People don't
:41:52. > :41:56.like Washington. True, but he has zero policy, when you get down to
:41:57. > :42:03.brass tacks, get down to plans. He has none. He is just hot air and I
:42:04. > :42:10.think he will buckle under the weight. Trump against Clinton, who
:42:11. > :42:15.wins? I think the authenticity. He is like Alex Salmond, Boris, Jeremy
:42:16. > :42:22.Corbyn, that authentic position he takes will win through. Hillary
:42:23. > :42:29.looks very wooden. Trump against Clinton? I think Trump stands a very
:42:30. > :42:36.good chance. What are you up to? Personally? Lots of different stuff.
:42:37. > :42:39.Belfast tomorrow, DJ in. I have been on BBC Radio two and I just did a
:42:40. > :42:45.live lesson for the kids around the country, introducing them to the BBC
:42:46. > :42:49.Micro bit. Thanks. That's your lot for tonight,
:42:50. > :42:51.folks, but not for us... Because it's Guantanamo Bay
:42:52. > :42:53.night at Lou Lou's - and don't worry, despite
:42:54. > :42:55.what you might've heard, But we leave you tonight
:42:56. > :42:59.with the Prime Minister - who took his mannered collection
:43:00. > :43:01.of pointless oratorical hand gestures to Slough this week,
:43:02. > :43:04.to launch his passionate campaign He took his collection of oratory or
:43:05. > :43:16.hand gestures with him. Some obviously told him
:43:17. > :43:18.they make him look authoritative. Nighty night, don't
:43:19. > :43:26.let David Brent bite! MUSIC: Handbags And Gladrags
:43:27. > :43:28.(Theme from The Office) Thank you very much,
:43:29. > :43:30.it's great to be here in Slough, MUSIC: David Brent
:43:31. > :43:45.from The Office humming