:00:14. > :00:21.# I would like to leave this city # This old town don't smell too
:00:22. > :00:29.pretty # And I can feel the warning signs
:00:30. > :00:36.running around my mind # So what do you say?
:00:37. > :00:41.# You can't give me the dreams that are mine anyway
:00:42. > :00:51.# Half a world away # Half a world away
:00:52. > :00:56.# I've been lost, I've been found but I don't feel down.
:00:57. > :01:01.# A week in which Boy George flung off
:01:02. > :01:06.the sober suits a Chancellor is required to wear,
:01:07. > :01:08.and donned the flowing robes of a soothsayer to tell us not only
:01:09. > :01:12.what the nation's gross domestic product would be in the year 2030,
:01:13. > :01:17.but that it would be precisely 6.2% smaller if we left
:01:18. > :01:21.the European Union. Put aside the ungenerous thought
:01:22. > :01:27.that Boy George has never yet made a forecast he's managed to hit,
:01:28. > :01:29.or the uncomfortable fact that in last month's Budget,
:01:30. > :01:32.with the financial year only a couple of weeks to run,
:01:33. > :01:36.his prediction for how much he'd have to borrow was still out
:01:37. > :01:40.by ?2 billion. That's just the carping of lesser
:01:41. > :01:44.mortals faced with Mystic George, who only has to stare
:01:45. > :01:47.into his crystal balls to tell us the size of our economy
:01:48. > :01:51.in 14 years' time, If only he had the balls
:01:52. > :01:57.to know what the size of the economy will be this
:01:58. > :01:59.year, or next. I'd even settle for the winner
:02:00. > :02:01.of tomorrow's 3.30 Handicap Speaking of those with an uncanny
:02:02. > :02:11.knack for being the future once - and when you look at their pasts,
:02:12. > :02:14.you can hardly blame them for preferring futurology to looking
:02:15. > :02:18.back - I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two fortune cookies
:02:19. > :02:22.we'd love to crack open. Think of them as the
:02:23. > :02:25.Nostradamus and Cassandra I speak, of course, of #newtlabour
:02:26. > :02:33.Ken Livingstone, I presume, and #sadmanonatrain Michael
:02:34. > :02:51."Chooey McChooChoo Face" Portillo. Your moment of the week? President
:02:52. > :02:57.Obama met the King of Saudi Arabia, and there is a bit of a new
:02:58. > :03:00.relationship going on. The United States is being very careful with
:03:01. > :03:05.Saudi Arabia and has trodden on eggshells with them. Obviously, the
:03:06. > :03:09.relationship is now strained because the United States has done a deal
:03:10. > :03:12.with Iran, there is talk of publishing what has been suppressed
:03:13. > :03:17.evidence about the Saudi Arabian connection with 9/11. I welcome
:03:18. > :03:21.this. Saudi Arabia is the unspoken subject in all the discussions about
:03:22. > :03:25.the causes of terrorism around Europe. No one ever says what about
:03:26. > :03:31.the amount of money financing the spread of Wahhabi is through Europe?
:03:32. > :03:34.What about the mosques being established by the Saudis, all of
:03:35. > :03:42.them address is. So let's put something on the table and discuss
:03:43. > :03:49.this. Well, you can see he has very little time for the Saudis, which is
:03:50. > :03:53.revealing. Harold Macmillan wrote in 1955 that he was worried that oil
:03:54. > :04:00.money coming to Saudi was funding a spread of intolerant Islam around
:04:01. > :04:08.the world. Your moment of the week? The depressing result in New York. I
:04:09. > :04:13.am a Bernie Sanders fan. Why does that not surprise me? My worry is
:04:14. > :04:18.that Hillary Clinton is so seen as part of the establishment, there to
:04:19. > :04:22.do what the Rich tell her, that I think Trump might actually beat her.
:04:23. > :04:27.She is ahead in the polls but Trump is a cynical hugger and he will move
:04:28. > :04:33.to try and get all the old Bernie Sanders voters. He still has to get
:04:34. > :04:38.the Republican nomination himself. Ted Cruz is even madder than he is.
:04:39. > :04:46.Ted Cruz is like the American Tal Afar and, you know. Is he into
:04:47. > :04:51.beheading? Something like half the members of Congress do not believe
:04:52. > :04:57.in evolution. It is just a moment of the week, not an essay of the week.
:04:58. > :05:01.Do I go on too long? No one has ever said that. Does he go on too long?
:05:02. > :05:04.Is the Pope Catholic? I think he is. Now, Barack Obama recently said that
:05:05. > :05:07.failing to prepare for the aftermath of toppling Colonel Gaddafi
:05:08. > :05:09.was the worst mistake of his presidency and in making his
:05:10. > :05:12.confession he managed to sling a few barbs at Call-Me-Dave,
:05:13. > :05:14.accusing the PM of being distracted after the warplanes of Britain
:05:15. > :05:17.and its allies attacked Libya Since then the country has
:05:18. > :05:20.experienced chaos and civil war rather
:05:21. > :05:22.than liberation and democracy. America, Britain, France,
:05:23. > :05:26.Germany and Italy meet next week and there's speculation
:05:27. > :05:28.that they may agree military support for a newly-established Libyan
:05:29. > :05:33.Government of National Accord. Here's author and journalist Rory
:05:34. > :05:50.O'Keeffe with his take of the week. Images of Gaddafi meeting world
:05:51. > :06:02.leaders in a Bedouin tent in my former home city of Sirte have
:06:03. > :06:08.become notorious, if not iconic, so we have come to our own little
:06:09. > :06:11.This Week tent to talk It's fair to say, the north African
:06:12. > :06:17.country has not been a gold standard of foreign intervention
:06:18. > :06:20.for the West. Barack Obama was right
:06:21. > :06:33.to call his failure to stick around after launching his F1-11s
:06:34. > :06:36.the biggest mistake David Cameron, who made
:06:37. > :06:39.the same mistake, could make Because once you choose to engage
:06:40. > :06:45.in other states' politics, you can't just clear off as soon
:06:46. > :06:48.as your bombers have The UK is proposing to do what it
:06:49. > :06:56.should have done five years ago, offering money and support
:06:57. > :07:01.to a Libyan government. But it spent the last five years
:07:02. > :07:04.preventing democratically elected administrations
:07:05. > :07:07.from using their own money Even now, a major reason the UK
:07:08. > :07:16.is supporting this new government, one of three operating within
:07:17. > :07:20.the state, seems rather cynical. It's likely to invite
:07:21. > :07:25.new air strikes on Libya. The driver for our renewed interest
:07:26. > :07:29.in Libya is IS, a horrific enemy, but only a bit part
:07:30. > :07:35.player in its Civil War. Western governments feared
:07:36. > :07:39.that IS members are running from Syria and Iraq to Libya,
:07:40. > :07:41.but there's little Putting troops on the ground
:07:42. > :07:46.for training purposes is appealing, but we must remember that,
:07:47. > :07:48.among the forces fighting IS in Libya, are members
:07:49. > :07:51.of Al-Qaeda and, whatever scare mongers might say,
:07:52. > :07:54.it's not IS maniacs risking their lives on the Mediterranean
:07:55. > :08:01.and leaking dinghies. The lesson to be learnt from Libya's
:08:02. > :08:05.grim recent past seems to be that the money is available for air
:08:06. > :08:09.strikes, but not to enable secure states which would make those air
:08:10. > :08:17.strikes unnecessary. From the This Week Bedouin tent
:08:18. > :08:20.to the sagging guy ropes of meaningful discussion on This
:08:21. > :08:33.Week, Rory O'Keeffe joins me now. Welcome to the programme. The
:08:34. > :08:38.president says that not planning for the day after Colonel Gaddafi's fall
:08:39. > :08:42.was his biggest mistake. Is it too late to put that right? There is an
:08:43. > :08:47.extent to which we could argue that the five years of chaos that have
:08:48. > :08:52.Vince Soodin mean there was a massive wasted opportunity, but I
:08:53. > :08:57.believe we have a responsibility and the ability to help assist Libya to
:08:58. > :09:04.write some of the rungs. There is this new UN backed government of
:09:05. > :09:08.National accord. The Prime Minister had to arrive by boat because his
:09:09. > :09:14.rivals closed the airport around Tripoli. Is that worth supporting?
:09:15. > :09:19.Absolutely, it is just about a government but there is certainly no
:09:20. > :09:23.national accord. There are three governments, none of which have the
:09:24. > :09:27.legitimacy or mandate of having been elected in a popular vote. The
:09:28. > :09:31.government of national accord unfortunately appears to have been
:09:32. > :09:35.foisted on Libya by the international community in the hope
:09:36. > :09:39.that it will invite air strikes on centres of population in Libya. That
:09:40. > :09:45.does not seem a form you for success. It would seem, if you have
:09:46. > :09:49.a country which has three governments, all of them well armed,
:09:50. > :09:54.knocking lumps out of each other, this is not a place to get involved
:09:55. > :09:59.in. Unless you want to get all your people killed, I think you are
:10:00. > :10:03.right. There is not the situation either to put in peacekeepers, or
:10:04. > :10:09.people who are going to be trainers. Let's go back to the beginning of
:10:10. > :10:13.that film. I think in general the removal of dictators has been a
:10:14. > :10:18.disaster in western foreign policy. Because what it has allowed is
:10:19. > :10:26.chaos, huge amounts of killing and safe havens for IS and Al-Qaeda. And
:10:27. > :10:29.it probably is too late. However, because we have made mistakes in the
:10:30. > :10:35.past does not mean all interventions in future would be a mistake. But
:10:36. > :10:40.what about Libya? I don't think there are conditions at the moment
:10:41. > :10:43.for an intervention, but if there were the hope of stability I would
:10:44. > :10:46.be in favour of supporting a government that could be a barrier
:10:47. > :10:52.to the free operation of terrorist groups that are a threat to us.
:10:53. > :10:57.Having created the problem, do we let them stew in their own juice?
:10:58. > :11:01.You could do a bit more bombing. That will not have any great effect.
:11:02. > :11:06.If you want to impose some sort of structure you are talking about
:11:07. > :11:11.hundreds of thousands of troops. We do not have the capacity. If it was
:11:12. > :11:15.just the West, no one trusts the West in the Middle East any more. I
:11:16. > :11:20.remember my first speech when I was 11 years old in the school debating
:11:21. > :11:24.society was denouncing Britain's invasion of Egypt in 1956. I can't
:11:25. > :11:27.think of any invention -- intervention we have done in the
:11:28. > :11:31.Middle East that has not been a disaster. This meeting taking place
:11:32. > :11:35.between the allies which includes Germany, who will not be involved,
:11:36. > :11:40.but it will involve Britain, America, France and Germany. There
:11:41. > :11:46.is talk of a stabilisation force, which would go into Tripoli, secure
:11:47. > :11:50.the airport and then start to train people there. What difference will
:11:51. > :11:54.that make? It is very difficult to see what difference that would make.
:11:55. > :11:59.I think we have taken the wrong attitude and we are imposing order
:12:00. > :12:06.on a situation where order cannot be imposed at this moment. We need to
:12:07. > :12:10.be working very hard to bring particularly the two sets of illegal
:12:11. > :12:15.militias which claimed to support two of Libya's three governments to
:12:16. > :12:19.some form of peace. We have been trying to do that and they would
:12:20. > :12:24.rather knock lumps out of each other. We have not tried to bring an
:12:25. > :12:31.end to the Libyan civil war. How do you? We need to engage properly with
:12:32. > :12:35.both governments and also with operation dignity which claims to
:12:36. > :12:39.support the house of representatives. These are two
:12:40. > :12:43.coalitions but one is run by a who thinks he should be the next
:12:44. > :12:50.Gaddafi. Why would he deal with us? That is true. What we need to talk
:12:51. > :12:55.about seriously is how peace can work in Libya and what role, if any,
:12:56. > :13:00.that general takes. You seem to downplay the importance of Islamic
:13:01. > :13:06.State, but there are about 5000 fighters there, and I don't agree
:13:07. > :13:10.with you. I think much of the intelligence is strong that many of
:13:11. > :13:16.them have come from Syria and Iraq as that has been degraded by
:13:17. > :13:22.bombing. 5000, they occupy right on the central coast line. 180 miles of
:13:23. > :13:26.that coastline, and they have been taking out a series of oil
:13:27. > :13:30.installations. They have failed to take them out. They launched a
:13:31. > :13:34.series of attacks on those installations, which have been
:13:35. > :13:40.defended by the petroleum facilities guard. I have seen nothing but add
:13:41. > :13:47.reports on these guys. Any attack is bad news. When Gaddafi was boss, oil
:13:48. > :13:55.output was 1.6 million barrels per day and it is now under 400,000.
:13:56. > :14:00.Libya is in a state of civil war. When you talk about me downplaying
:14:01. > :14:02.IS, I believe they are a horrific organisation and should be taken
:14:03. > :14:06.seriously but they are the smallest of the forces fighting in Libya at
:14:07. > :14:11.the moment and they are reliant on the continuation of the Libyan civil
:14:12. > :14:16.war in order to operate in Libya. If we are going to get involved in
:14:17. > :14:21.this, whether we like it or not, and there has been talk of 1000 British
:14:22. > :14:25.troops going there as trainers, is that they matter, putting aside with
:14:26. > :14:30.EU are in favour or not, is that matter for the government orders
:14:31. > :14:34.Parliament have to have say? I think it has been a mistake for the
:14:35. > :14:37.government to put itself in a position where it has to go to the
:14:38. > :14:40.House of Commons in order to go to war. That will be a minority point
:14:41. > :14:44.of view but I don't think governments should go back to
:14:45. > :14:49.Parliament. So I will say that the government should be allowed to do
:14:50. > :14:53.this. However, if it is claiming that this is a situation that cannot
:14:54. > :14:57.become dangerous and for that reason it does not need to go to
:14:58. > :15:03.Parliament, the reasoning is faulty. If you are sending in 1000 people,
:15:04. > :15:06.you need 1000 people to defend them. You need a lot more than that.
:15:07. > :15:10.Should government have the freedom to do this, or should they have to
:15:11. > :15:23.go to Parliament? Literally, London will be more of a
:15:24. > :15:29.target for a terrorist attack. There needs to be an open and honest
:15:30. > :15:35.debate about this in Parliament. Someone has to oversee them. They
:15:36. > :15:41.may well get it wrong. Don't they also have to have some leeway. All
:15:42. > :15:44.our foreign policy is dictated about whether whir frightened of people
:15:45. > :15:49.putting bombs in London, a hopeless place in which to decide on foreign
:15:50. > :15:52.policy. When Blair was planning to invade Iraq, he was warned by our
:15:53. > :15:57.Security Services, this will make a target for terrorism. That needs to
:15:58. > :16:02.be debated in Parliament. And he may have decided that was a secondary
:16:03. > :16:05.fact and they wanted more morn things than that. If you had been a
:16:06. > :16:11.woman living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, you could walk around the
:16:12. > :16:19.street in a mini skirt, do that today you would be stoned to death.
:16:20. > :16:21.You are switching the argument, the be-all-and-end-all shouldn't be
:16:22. > :16:24.about whether or not we are afraid of terrorism.
:16:25. > :16:29.The point Ken made about life under Saddam Hussein, you can agree or
:16:30. > :16:33.disagree with that, but isn't the blunt truth that most Libyans are
:16:34. > :16:37.pining for the return of Colonel Gaddafi, probably? Funnily enough,
:16:38. > :16:41.one of the few things most Libyans today agree on is their continued
:16:42. > :16:50.opposition to Gaddafi. Really, how do we know that? All militia members
:16:51. > :16:57.and people on the street and I'm in regular contact with people in
:16:58. > :17:01.Libya. But the economy is now going to be the fastest tanking economy in
:17:02. > :17:05.the world, people are suffering from malnutrition there. Oil, which was
:17:06. > :17:09.the only source of Government revenue, is at record lows.
:17:10. > :17:14.Absolutely. If you were an ordinary Libyan, I mean Colonel Gaddafi was
:17:15. > :17:19.an evil dictator, but you basically had a job and you got fed? And there
:17:20. > :17:23.were supporters of Gaddafi, that's why there was a Civil War in 2011,
:17:24. > :17:28.there were people who fought in support of Gaddafi. The issue is
:17:29. > :17:32.however we are entering the third year of Libya's second Civil War.
:17:33. > :17:37.The country is tanking, no doubt, and the major mistake, and there
:17:38. > :17:42.must be a discussion at some point, but the major mistake we made was
:17:43. > :17:43.turning our backs on Libya when Gaddafi was killed. We'll leave it
:17:44. > :17:45.there. Now it's late, John Whittingdale
:17:46. > :17:48.in a lap dancing club late. And of course he was only
:17:49. > :17:52.on a fact-finding mission, honest. So make sure you declare
:17:53. > :17:54.an interest, because waiting in the wings, classical singer,
:17:55. > :17:57.Katherine Jenkins is here to sing the national anthem with Ken
:17:58. > :18:03.Livingstone. And if you like the sound
:18:04. > :18:06.of that, let us know on The Twitter, the Fleecebook,
:18:07. > :18:10.the InstaGranny SnapDrivel, And never forgetting
:18:11. > :18:14.Gordon Brown's World Now, everyone knows the royal
:18:15. > :18:22.family are above politics. But when hopes for a new royal yacht
:18:23. > :18:25.were sunk back in the 90s, And according to his biographer,
:18:26. > :18:34.Gyles Brandreth, he named "And then Portillo got involved,"
:18:35. > :18:42.said Prince Phillip "and made a complete Blue Nun of it.
:18:43. > :18:47.Absolutely idiotic!" Here on This Week we clearly owe
:18:48. > :18:50.the royal family a favour, and so to celebrate the Queen's
:18:51. > :18:54.90th birthday, we've commissioned our own royal
:18:55. > :18:57.pottery Here's his commemorative round-up
:18:58. > :19:07.of the political week. I suppose anyone doing a job for 90
:19:08. > :19:12.years deserves some recognition. So, inspired by Queenie's milestone,
:19:13. > :19:24.This Week commissioned me, a staunch republican
:19:25. > :19:29.and spectacularly bad drawer to create a commemorative
:19:30. > :19:32.collection of China. George Osborne started the week
:19:33. > :19:39.painting a vivid picture of, for once, a wrecked British economy,
:19:40. > :19:43.if we vote to leave Europe. Her Maj might even have to flog
:19:44. > :19:48.a castle if the Treasury is right The most likely bill for our public
:19:49. > :19:55.services if we left the EU That's an increase of 8p
:19:56. > :20:05.on the basic rate of income tax. Higher taxes and a smaller economy
:20:06. > :20:16.is not a price worth paying. Up popped that prince of EU leavers,
:20:17. > :20:19.Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, to hit back at his chum
:20:20. > :20:23.George's gloomy predictions and outline his own Brexit plan,
:20:24. > :20:26.promising greater freedom, If we vote to stay the EU's bosses
:20:27. > :20:33.and bureaucrats will take that as carte blanche to continue taking
:20:34. > :20:36.more power and money They will say that we
:20:37. > :20:40.voted for more Europe. Any protest on our part will be met
:20:41. > :20:43.with a complacent shrug and a reminder that we were given
:20:44. > :20:46.our own very special negotiation, The former London Mayor Ken
:20:47. > :21:03.Livingstone threatened to become an emigre and move abroad
:21:04. > :21:07.if Britain quits Europe. The current mayor of London,
:21:08. > :21:10.Boris Johnson, offered to pack The Queen's 90th is on US President
:21:11. > :21:23.Barack Obama's legacy tour. Yet, before he sits down
:21:24. > :21:26.with her in Windsor, it was clear the political goal
:21:27. > :21:30.of the leader of an American republic which fought a war
:21:31. > :21:33.of independence to shake up the British monarchy,
:21:34. > :21:37.is to keep Britain in Europe. This decision is a decision
:21:38. > :21:41.for the British people We are sovereign in making this
:21:42. > :21:46.decision. Personally, I believe we should
:21:47. > :21:49.listen to advice from friends and other countries,
:21:50. > :21:52.and I struggle to find the leader of any friendly country
:21:53. > :21:55.who thinks we should leave. After the briefest of happy returns
:21:56. > :22:14.from republican Jeremy Corbyn, at Prime Minister's Questions,
:22:15. > :22:18.the Labour leader exploited Tory splits over plans to force
:22:19. > :22:22.every school in England Why on earth is the Prime Minister
:22:23. > :22:28.proposing to spend ?1.3 billion on a top-down reorganisation that
:22:29. > :22:32.wasn't in his manifesto, teachers don't want it,
:22:33. > :22:36.parents don't want it, governors don't want it,
:22:37. > :22:40.headteachers don't want it? Even his own MPs and councillors
:22:41. > :22:43.don't want it. We are spending ?7 billion on more
:22:44. > :22:49.school places to make up for the woeful lack of action under
:22:50. > :22:52.the last Labour government. With another doctors' strike looming
:22:53. > :22:56.in England, the Health Secretary was pressed to clear up confusion
:22:57. > :22:59.over whether he is imposing or introducing new contracts,
:23:00. > :23:02.whatever the difference means. Despite giving us all the impression
:23:03. > :23:06.back in February that he was going to railroad through a new contract,
:23:07. > :23:14.it now seems the Health Secretary Yes, we are imposing
:23:15. > :23:21.a new contract and we are doing it with the greatest of regret,
:23:22. > :23:24.because the BMA refused Had they negotiated on Saturday pay,
:23:25. > :23:30.as they said they would, Instead we have a strike,
:23:31. > :23:39.the first ever withdrawal Let me know if your royal street
:23:40. > :23:45.party is interrupted by canvassers because the political parties
:23:46. > :23:50.are putting out their bunting ahead of elections next month in England,
:23:51. > :23:52.Wales, Scotland and Northern And despite the SNP manifesto
:23:53. > :23:57.launched this week not promising a referendum on independence,
:23:58. > :24:02.First Minister Nicola Sturgeon made clear that is what
:24:03. > :24:05.still drives her party. Setting the date for a referendum
:24:06. > :24:09.before a majority of the Scottish people have been persuaded that
:24:10. > :24:13.independence and therefore another referendum is the best
:24:14. > :24:16.future for our country So this summer we will start
:24:17. > :24:24.new work to persuade a majority in Scotland of that
:24:25. > :24:33.case for independence. Cameron, Corbyn and the rest packed
:24:34. > :24:42.the Commons today to ladle praise on the Queen at the end of a week
:24:43. > :24:46.in which sovereignty I wonder what a prime minister,
:24:47. > :24:55.party leader or president would do Deference isn't my style,
:24:56. > :25:01.but I suppose the old girl uses a lot of crockery for all those
:25:02. > :25:04.celebratory dinners I wonder if she could do with a few
:25:05. > :25:12.pieces from the royal Kevin Maguire, ruining his chances
:25:13. > :25:22.of ever being awarded a knighthood, Leader of the Greens,
:25:23. > :25:33.Natalie Bennett, and her on-screen husband and leader
:25:34. > :25:45.of the Ukips, Nigel Farage. Welcome. Mr Obama has just landed in
:25:46. > :25:52.London. He's got an article in the Telegraph coming up in the morning
:25:53. > :25:54.towards the end it's strong, it's in America's interests, Britain's
:25:55. > :26:00.interests, in the EU's interests that we stay in the EU. Is he right
:26:01. > :26:05.to intervene? I don't think he is, no, but I'm not sure he really
:26:06. > :26:13.understands it. I was in Washington last year. Some thought that EU was
:26:14. > :26:18.a friendly trade club. That was a generous interpretation. It's in his
:26:19. > :26:22.interests and the interests of giant American corporate businesses that
:26:23. > :26:27.Britain states we stay in the EU, move on to the Transatlantic
:26:28. > :26:31.investment treaty. I guess it's the latter. Is he right to intervene?
:26:32. > :26:35.It's right for him to share his views. He's the leader of the US,
:26:36. > :26:39.he's sharing the US view, we should look at it with appropriate
:26:40. > :26:46.scepticism. He's looking at the view from the US first, but he's also
:26:47. > :26:50.looking at the fact that he is saying that the EU is greater than
:26:51. > :26:56.the sum of its parts in terms of its role on the world stage. When you
:26:57. > :26:59.put together a group of nations working together tot protect climate
:27:00. > :27:05.change and workers's rights, when you put them together and work as a
:27:06. > :27:09.group, that is stronger than if we were working alone. Will it make a
:27:10. > :27:15.difference, the intervention of the President? I don't think it will
:27:16. > :27:19.make any difference at all. When have you ever taken notice of what a
:27:20. > :27:24.US president said? I've always followed what they said. That's a
:27:25. > :27:28.different matter. At least he's not bombing us, he's just telling us
:27:29. > :27:31.what he thinks, that's a real improvement with American diplomacy.
:27:32. > :27:37.You don't think it will affect the debate? No. People make up their
:27:38. > :27:41.mind based on the debates. Nigel's lot and the other side are banging
:27:42. > :27:45.on about stuff. I've said all the way through, I'll vote to leave the
:27:46. > :27:49.moment someone can prove to me we'll be better off outside. The
:27:50. > :27:53.overwhelming majority, economists and business people are in favour of
:27:54. > :28:05.staying in, and it's a nightmare. You are following big business?
:28:06. > :28:11.Corporate Ken! ? Just look at the last six years... I want to come
:28:12. > :28:13.back to the president. Will the President's intervention make a
:28:14. > :28:17.difference? I don't believe it will. I wish I could take Obama just for
:28:18. > :28:22.an hour to a European Union meeting so he could towns what extent Europe
:28:23. > :28:30.and the European Union is driven by anti-Americanism. It's all about
:28:31. > :28:34.NATO, having a kind of pastiche European defence identity, the whole
:28:35. > :28:38.French idea is about elbowing the Americans out of Europe. The
:28:39. > :28:42.Americans misunderstand the whole thing so badly. We are being
:28:43. > :28:47.presented with a parody of what the US is like. Obama is not necessarily
:28:48. > :28:51.listening to the Senators, he's listening to his advisers to a wide
:28:52. > :28:55.range of experts just as the British people are listening to the
:28:56. > :28:57.scientists for the EU, the scientists are overwhelmingly coming
:28:58. > :29:02.out in favour of the EU. Tonight there was a big meeting,
:29:03. > :29:06.environmentalists for the EU. Large numbers of people. In terms of big
:29:07. > :29:10.business, the E such an organisation that can stand up to and rein in big
:29:11. > :29:16.corporate interests in a way that's very, very difficult or impossible
:29:17. > :29:21.for an individual country to do. I voted Green in 89 because you were
:29:22. > :29:24.the only Euro-sceptic party in this country, highly principled. Is it
:29:25. > :29:27.just the money that's turning the Green Party in favour? Clearly you
:29:28. > :29:32.are funded heavily from the European Union. Your European election
:29:33. > :29:35.campaign was funded by the EU. Is it as simple as that? I would very much
:29:36. > :29:38.invite anybody out there to have a look at our accounts for the
:29:39. > :29:41.European campaign or any other election campaign and they'll find
:29:42. > :29:45.that the level of funding that we have in the Green Party is on a very
:29:46. > :29:51.much smaller scale than other parties. That's because we are
:29:52. > :29:57.funded... Do you get any money from the European Union? Not to fight the
:29:58. > :30:04.election campaign. But you do get money? For our MEPs doing all sorts
:30:05. > :30:09.of work. The big development before the President arrived was the
:30:10. > :30:14.forecast. Was it propaganda or public information? It's a guess.
:30:15. > :30:16.The simple fact is, as you said at the beginning, we can't predict
:30:17. > :30:21.what's happening in the British economy next year. We can't predict
:30:22. > :30:26.what happened last year sometimes. One simple fact - we should look at
:30:27. > :30:29.the last six years of our exports to Germany. In the years before we
:30:30. > :30:33.joined the EU, they were cut in half, in the year since we joined,
:30:34. > :30:40.they have gone up 120%. That's quite telling. Those are facts.
:30:41. > :30:48.When we were out, we lost a load of our export markets and when we
:30:49. > :30:54.joined we got it back. We lost all our trade outside the EU because we
:30:55. > :30:59.put tariffs on. We cut ourselves off from the rest of the world. Hardly
:31:00. > :31:03.surprising trade with Germany increased, but their trade with us
:31:04. > :31:10.increased much more quickly. We don't invest the way they do in
:31:11. > :31:14.their industry. The Chancellor and everyone is saying, we have this
:31:15. > :31:17.wonderful deal with the European Union and without it we would risk
:31:18. > :31:23.everything. I think we have a rotten deal with the European Union for
:31:24. > :31:29.access to selling our goods tariff- free to their markets. We pay 1% of
:31:30. > :31:36.our GDP every day as a membership fee for an economy 12% of which is
:31:37. > :31:39.exports to the EU. 100% of our businesses are regulated and we have
:31:40. > :31:47.freedom of movement for 500 million people. What did you make of the
:31:48. > :31:51.Treasury document? It reflects in many ways that the debate has been
:31:52. > :31:57.shallow and focused on figures produced by both sides... You think
:31:58. > :32:03.the document was shallow. I think we all know how George Osborne has
:32:04. > :32:07.entirely changed his tone. Have you read the document? I have not read
:32:08. > :32:15.it all. So how do you know it is shallow. It is packed with quadratic
:32:16. > :32:21.equations. What I think is shallow is, how is this based on the reality
:32:22. > :32:24.of the world. Given the fact we had George Osborne who in the autumn
:32:25. > :32:27.suddenly discovered millions of pounds down the back of the sofa and
:32:28. > :32:32.then found out he did not have them... We need to have this debate
:32:33. > :32:36.on more serious grounds about what sort of country Britain is, how we
:32:37. > :32:40.relate to our neighbours, meaning things like air pollution, water
:32:41. > :32:47.pollution, wildlife. Those things do not stop at natural borders. They
:32:48. > :32:51.are all interrelated. If it is such a cataclysm to leave the European
:32:52. > :32:55.Union, why was the Prime Minister saying a few months ago that he
:32:56. > :32:59.might, if the negotiation did not go right, recommend we leave the
:33:00. > :33:08.European Union. You didn't believe that! If it is such a cataclysm to
:33:09. > :33:12.leave the EU, why has the government risked a referendum? Because they
:33:13. > :33:17.were frightened Nigel was gang to take a lot of their votes. That is
:33:18. > :33:22.probably true. The government is either being insincere or
:33:23. > :33:28.irresponsible, or both. How does the rest of the world survive outside
:33:29. > :33:33.the EU? It is remarkable, isn't it? Switzerland appears to be doing
:33:34. > :33:39.rather well. And has more free trade deals than we do negotiated on its
:33:40. > :33:46.own behalf. Is the referendum playing into Ukip's position or
:33:47. > :33:50.status? It is not doing any harm. I am pretty confident Ukip will win
:33:51. > :33:55.seats in the Scottish parliament, the Northern Irish assembly, the
:33:56. > :33:59.Welsh Assembly and in London. What about the Greens? I think many
:34:00. > :34:04.people are seeing us as anti-UKIP, which is to our benefit. If we go
:34:05. > :34:08.back to the by-election before the general election, we first heard
:34:09. > :34:12.that. The fact that we are an opposite sides in the referendum,
:34:13. > :34:17.and we celebrate the freedom of movement in the EU as enriching the
:34:18. > :34:24.possibility of our lives, as against Ukip, yes. It is late, so you can be
:34:25. > :34:28.honest because nobody is watching. Is it true that after the referendum
:34:29. > :34:32.you are going to rebrand and relaunch your party? When I was in
:34:33. > :34:37.business I work for a small firm, it happy place, which was taken over by
:34:38. > :34:43.a bigger company and became different. The whole modus operandi
:34:44. > :34:47.had to change. Ukip is basically run by volunteers who volunteered to be
:34:48. > :34:52.elected onto a NEC, and they run the party, choose the candidates, do the
:34:53. > :34:56.discipline. That was fine. We now have to have a professional
:34:57. > :35:00.management board, and I think the model where we send money, get them
:35:01. > :35:09.on the ship card we hold in our wallets is just old hat. -- get a
:35:10. > :35:13.membership card. Italy has proved a completely different approach to
:35:14. > :35:17.politics and that is where Ukip needs to go. I am going to ask you a
:35:18. > :35:22.question Natalie Bennett, which you can answer in one word, yes, no or
:35:23. > :35:28.maybe. Are you going to stand for real election as leader of the
:35:29. > :35:34.Greens? I am entirely focused on the elections. Yes, no or maybe? I will
:35:35. > :35:38.think about that after the elections, which is what the people
:35:39. > :35:42.out there listening now will be focused on. That is what we are all
:35:43. > :35:49.focused on. We should be focused on that and the referendum. Yes, no or
:35:50. > :35:51.maybe? I will be deciding after the election. I know when I am beaten.
:35:52. > :35:53.Thank you, Bob. Now, here on This Week we like to
:35:54. > :35:57.think of ourselves as TV royalty. And for many years Michael
:35:58. > :35:59.and Diane reigned supreme as the king and queen of late-night
:36:00. > :36:01.political small-talk. Benign small-screen monarchs,
:36:02. > :36:03.who embodied the very soul But now that Diane has abdicated
:36:04. > :36:06.from serious politics and joined the Shadow Cabinet,
:36:07. > :36:09.Michael is left all alone a modern-day Princess
:36:10. > :36:12.Diana at the Taj Mahal, And that's why we've
:36:13. > :36:17.decided to put the monarchy In case you missed it,
:36:18. > :36:35.Her Maj has turned 90. She's the nation's oldest ever
:36:36. > :36:37.and longest reigning sovereign. So has her longevity helped preserve
:36:38. > :36:40.the monarchy's popularity Reluctant royal or man
:36:41. > :36:47.who would be King? Wills has been following his
:36:48. > :36:50.mother's footsteps this week, but some ask whether he'll prove
:36:51. > :36:53.to be a people's prince and how much responsibility the second in line
:36:54. > :36:59.to the throne really craves. Duty can sort of weigh you down
:37:00. > :37:02.an awful lot at a very early age and I think you've got
:37:03. > :37:07.to develop into the duty role. The Prime Minister might have led
:37:08. > :37:11.Parliament's tributes to the boss on her birthday but were all eyes
:37:12. > :37:14.actually on the man who refused to sing God Save the Queen last
:37:15. > :37:17.year, Republican Whatever different views people
:37:18. > :37:22.across this country have about the institution,
:37:23. > :37:26.the vast majority share an opinion that Her Majesty's served this
:37:27. > :37:30.country and has overwhelming support with a clear sense of public service
:37:31. > :37:35.and public duty. She is certainly flying the Royal
:37:36. > :37:38.standard and Katherine Jenkins will be singing at the Queen's
:37:39. > :37:40.birthday celebrations So as an eventful life
:37:41. > :37:45.enters its tenth decade, should we all bow down
:37:46. > :38:02.and give our thanks? We are joined by Katherine Jenkins.
:38:03. > :38:10.Welcome to the programme. You are singing for the Queen again. Has she
:38:11. > :38:14.got you on speed dial? It is always such an honour and a huge thing to
:38:15. > :38:19.be asked to be part of the birthday celebrations. I have known for a
:38:20. > :38:23.year, because it has been planned for quite a long time. It will be
:38:24. > :38:29.held on the grounds of Windsor Castle. You will be singing there,
:38:30. > :38:33.in the open air? I think it will be an open-air show with the music and
:38:34. > :38:43.pageantry of the Windsor horse show. It will be quite a spectacle. Are
:38:44. > :38:46.you a royalist? I am. My mum and my late grandmother are huge royal
:38:47. > :38:52.fans. I remember going on holiday to the Isle of Wight, and the Royal
:38:53. > :38:55.yacht was going to be passing and my mum was so excited. We had to rush
:38:56. > :39:04.to the beach to be able to see this. On the horizon. Huge fans. Not long
:39:05. > :39:10.ago, in the 1990s, the royal family was under some pressure. But it
:39:11. > :39:18.seems to have escaped from that. When you look at the younger royals,
:39:19. > :39:22.who you have sunk to as well, is the future in good hands? I think there
:39:23. > :39:28.is a lot of goodwill towards the royal family, especially when you
:39:29. > :39:34.look at the work ethic of the Queen, and the dedication, the energy she
:39:35. > :39:37.puts in. My experience has always been that she is informed, has
:39:38. > :39:44.something to say to everybody and has a great sense of humour. I think
:39:45. > :39:48.that comes across. Of course, the younger royals are somebody that my
:39:49. > :39:55.generation look up to as well. Do you get to speak to her when you do
:39:56. > :39:58.the singing? When you do the Royal variety performance, all of the
:39:59. > :40:07.performers line-up and there is a brief shake hands. Does she ever put
:40:08. > :40:12.in a request? No. I surprised, as we head into the 21st-century, and as
:40:13. > :40:16.we were ending the last century republican sentiment had risen, the
:40:17. > :40:26.Queen talked about her horrible year. And yet the monarchy seems as
:40:27. > :40:30.strong as ever. I was always a Republican and in the midst of Mrs
:40:31. > :40:34.Thatcher abolishing the GLC I got a phone call from Buckingham Palace,
:40:35. > :40:39.saying that the Queen would want to open the Thames Barrier. I thought,
:40:40. > :40:46.that will Peers Thatcher. She did that. But you are still a
:40:47. > :40:49.Republican? The trouble is, what do you have in place? Do you have an
:40:50. > :40:56.election between former prime ministers, celebrities? I think the
:40:57. > :41:00.Queen has been magnificent. She has genuinely serve the country. If I
:41:01. > :41:04.was to make a case for republicanism, it is people like the
:41:05. > :41:09.youngsters. Prince Charles grew up and we read in the papers about his
:41:10. > :41:13.exam results, his early dates. If you are going to have a royal
:41:14. > :41:20.family, the kids should be kept out of that publicity. I think we have
:41:21. > :41:23.just seen the convert of a Republican, Mr Portillo. And he is
:41:24. > :41:29.following big business on the European Union. It has been an
:41:30. > :41:35.interesting evening. RU surprised by the strength of the monarchy these
:41:36. > :41:40.days? I am a bit but I do not think it has happened by accident. It has
:41:41. > :41:43.been an effort by the Queen and Prince William, who have rescued the
:41:44. > :41:50.situation into which they had got by 1997. Amongst the many remarkable
:41:51. > :41:54.things that have happened are that they have turned it around. Remember
:41:55. > :42:00.some of the extraordinary thing is the Queen has done. I would pick out
:42:01. > :42:05.in particular her role in the Irish peace process. Also as Head of the
:42:06. > :42:13.Commonwealth. You can't tell us what you are going to sing on the night?
:42:14. > :42:18.It is top secret. I will tell you afterwards. Excellent. You are going
:42:19. > :42:31.to sing for us tonight. The national anthem. I think it is apt for today.
:42:32. > :42:32.We have put the words on-screen for you, can, in case there is a
:42:33. > :42:39.problem. # You can't give me the dreams
:42:40. > :44:06.that are mine anyway # I've been lost, I've been found
:44:07. > :44:25.but I don't feel down