:00:14. > :00:22.British policing in the dock. They failed in the line of Jude T.
:00:23. > :00:26.Talk-show host held the seaport is my Shelagh Fogarty tells us why it
:00:27. > :00:32.could be some time before our police forces achieve the straight and
:00:33. > :00:36.narrow. We talk of justice for the 96, but I see no evidence yet that a
:00:37. > :00:41.cover-up on the scale of Hillsborough could not happen again
:00:42. > :00:48.tomorrow. Does government policy need urgent
:00:49. > :00:52.care? We forked out a fortune for a private consultation with Anne
:00:53. > :00:56.McElvoy. Doctors and school academies were on the Westminster
:00:57. > :01:03.ward round this week and moving up the Parliamentary emergency list.
:01:04. > :01:08.And Big Ben is to shut up shop for urgent repairs. Should Parliament
:01:09. > :01:15.follow suit? Suzannah Lipscomb tells us why our seats of power need more
:01:16. > :01:20.than a bit of first aid. A venerable old thing, representing the very
:01:21. > :01:23.best of British politics. We should preserve it for ever. I speak, of
:01:24. > :01:31.course, of this Week on BBC One. Welcome to This Week,
:01:32. > :01:34.where you find us in lockdown, doors barred, windows shuttered,
:01:35. > :01:37.because politicians have turned belligerent and it's no longer safe
:01:38. > :01:42.to venture outside the studio. Only a few hours ago,
:01:43. > :01:44.in this very building, two leading Labour lights engaged
:01:45. > :01:47.in a verbal slanging match that came If that's how they treat each other,
:01:48. > :01:53.there's no telling what they might It's scary when law and order
:01:54. > :01:57.is on the brink of breakdown and, as always seems to be the case
:01:58. > :02:00.when you most need them, there were no police around
:02:01. > :02:03.to stop the altercation. Not even a Hillsborough plod to make
:02:04. > :02:06.up what he was seeing. Now, out in the real world,
:02:07. > :02:09.doctors are on strike, the economy is slowing,
:02:10. > :02:11.unemployment is rising again, the steel industry is on its knees
:02:12. > :02:14.and 11,000 BHS workers are about to lose their jobs
:02:15. > :02:21.through no fault of their own. But we've spent most of the day
:02:22. > :02:23.arguing about whether Hitler was really a closet Zionist,
:02:24. > :02:27.all because Ken Livingstone decided to pour petrol on what was already
:02:28. > :02:31.a conflagration by touring the studios, including this one,
:02:32. > :02:36.in defence of some loony-tune tweets from a rookie Labour MP with daft
:02:37. > :02:39.views about where Israel And his old mate and leader,
:02:40. > :02:46.Jezza, suspended him for his pains, just to make sure the news tonight
:02:47. > :02:51.was dominated by nothing else. Sometimes you wonder if a cunning
:02:52. > :02:55.cabal of evil Tories aren't secretly Speaking of those with every
:02:56. > :03:01.reason to feel unwanted and who nobody would want to pull,
:03:02. > :03:05.I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two cultural icons
:03:06. > :03:08.who would never dream Think of them as the
:03:09. > :03:12.Jay Z and Beyonce of I speak, of course,
:03:13. > :03:17.of #manontheleft Alan 'AJ' Johnson. And #sadmanonatrain Michael
:03:18. > :03:32.'with the good hair' Portillo. Your moment of the week? We are
:03:33. > :03:36.going to discuss Hillsborough shortly but one thing that occurred
:03:37. > :03:42.to me is that here we are, 27 years after the event, at possibly the
:03:43. > :03:47.beginning of a process of justice. Many of the families have died in
:03:48. > :03:51.the interval. Some of the teenagers who were crushed would be
:03:52. > :03:56.grandparents by now. We have not heard the Chilcot Inquiry yet on a
:03:57. > :04:01.war that occurred in 2003. It takes us a generation to build a runway,
:04:02. > :04:04.to build a railway line. We are looking at having an enquiry into
:04:05. > :04:10.historic child abuse which is planned to take five years. Goodness
:04:11. > :04:12.knows how many years it will take. There is something completely
:04:13. > :04:19.dysfunctional in this country about how long these things take. I think
:04:20. > :04:26.it makes us a laughing stock internationally. Interesting. Frank
:04:27. > :04:34.Field made a speech on Tuesday, famous Labour MP. He said about the
:04:35. > :04:38.Labour Party that being pro-European and campaigning to stay in the EU
:04:39. > :04:42.was writing the second longest suicide note in history. His
:04:43. > :04:47.reference was to the longest suicide note, our manifesto of 1983,
:04:48. > :04:51.famously called the longest suicide note in history. The reason why it
:04:52. > :04:56.was an uncharacteristically foolish thing to say is that our 1983
:04:57. > :05:02.manifesto was the only time we ever stood on a platform of leaving the
:05:03. > :05:08.European Union. I had not connected. That is, of course, what he wants to
:05:09. > :05:13.do. I had not spotted that. Always here to help you. It is not often I
:05:14. > :05:16.learn anything from your moments and I did tonight.
:05:17. > :05:19.Now, after a long 27 years, a jury this week found what had
:05:20. > :05:21.been long suspected - that the 96 victims
:05:22. > :05:23.of the Hillsborough disaster were unlawfully killed
:05:24. > :05:25.and that the Chief Superintendent at the time was responsible for
:05:26. > :05:31.Justice for the 96 was proclaimed across Liverpool and the solidarity
:05:32. > :05:36.of the ordinary families who'd fought for so long and with such
:05:37. > :05:39.tenacity against a system and institutions seemingly designed
:05:40. > :05:43.to thwart them gave new meaning to their club's anthem,
:05:44. > :05:49.But justice is far from complete and criminal investigations are now
:05:50. > :05:51.underway, one on the run up to the tragedy, the other
:05:52. > :05:58.The actions of the South Yorkshire Police are at the centre of both,
:05:59. > :06:00.and that force's behaviour has only added to the public's increasing
:06:01. > :06:04.loss of confidence in the police in general across the country,
:06:05. > :06:10.Here's proud Scouser and LBC presenter Shelagh Fogarty
:06:11. > :06:34.The headlines around Hillsborough this week have screamed "Justice,
:06:35. > :06:40.But it seems to me that there was, yes, a moral justice
:06:41. > :06:43.for the families this week, but in no way criminal justice.
:06:44. > :06:47.The lies by the police, the cover-up by the police,
:06:48. > :06:50.has left me and others wondering what exactly is wrong
:06:51. > :06:58.Three members of my family are police officers,
:06:59. > :07:02.so I know that there are good, decent people in the police.
:07:03. > :07:04.But Hillsborough isn't the only reason why public trust
:07:05. > :07:15.Whenever I talk about public trust in the police on my radio show,
:07:16. > :07:19.Young black men tell me they don't trust the police.
:07:20. > :07:21.Black mothers tell me that they train their sons to handle
:07:22. > :07:33.And police officers who ring tell me it is rotten at the top.
:07:34. > :07:35.Even the former Attorney General Dominic Grieve said that there
:07:36. > :07:38.is an irony in the fact that we call ourselves a civilised society
:07:39. > :07:47.but Hillsborough isn't the only example of institutional cover-up.
:07:48. > :07:51.The Stephen Lawrence murder investigation, Operation Elveden,
:07:52. > :07:57.the Westminster paedophile ring, and the investigations
:07:58. > :08:09.The police are meant to serve you and me,
:08:10. > :08:14.But damning report after damning report seems to suggest that
:08:15. > :08:22.very little has changed since the miners' strike.
:08:23. > :08:25.Meanwhile, the Home Secretary is pushing for more powers to allow
:08:26. > :08:27.police to poke their noses into our private lives.
:08:28. > :08:35.Justice for the 96 sounds very sweet indeed.
:08:36. > :08:38.But I don't see any evidence yet to suggest that a cover-up
:08:39. > :08:47.like the one seen at Hillsborough couldn't happen again.
:08:48. > :08:49.From the Courthouse Hotel Bar prison cells to our very
:08:50. > :08:51.own crimes against television here on This Week,
:08:52. > :09:07.Alan Johnson, former Home Secretary, you heard the list. Not just
:09:08. > :09:12.Hillsborough, although that is one of the most huge, but the failure to
:09:13. > :09:18.confront sex slavery in Rotherham, Rochdale, Oxford, the Stephen
:09:19. > :09:22.Lawrence case, operation Midland and supposedly BIP child abuse, Jimmy
:09:23. > :09:26.Savile, plebgate, Ian Tomlinson, unlawfully killed at AG 20 demo,
:09:27. > :09:33.ludicrous undercover operations against various green groups. What
:09:34. > :09:38.is going on with the police? The question is, is this still the case?
:09:39. > :09:45.We are talking about historic incidents. Tomlinson was 2008, much
:09:46. > :09:49.more recent. Have the police changed? I like to think they have.
:09:50. > :09:54.There is a different approach. If you look at the television dramas,
:09:55. > :09:59.life on Mars and Ashes to Ashes, that was what the police were like,
:10:00. > :10:02.no doubt about it. Has it reformed sufficiently for us to believe
:10:03. > :10:05.something like Hillsborough could not happen again? I think that is
:10:06. > :10:14.the big question, and it is certainly a question that those
:10:15. > :10:17.families have got the truth. Theresa May was asked about this in
:10:18. > :10:22.Parliament and she put a lot of store, and she has been tremendous
:10:23. > :10:27.on this, she put a lot of store on the code of ethics being produced
:10:28. > :10:31.for police to follow. I felt there was a different atmosphere from the
:10:32. > :10:36.kind of police forces I remember in the past. I was brought up in
:10:37. > :10:39.Notting Hill. Black kids on the street of Notting Hill would not
:10:40. > :10:46.give you any sustenance that the police were any thing other than
:10:47. > :10:49.enemies. Police have tried hard to recruit black officers, to get rid
:10:50. > :10:54.of the racism and sexism that was there, and they're in other parts of
:10:55. > :10:58.society at the time, too. They did not seem to try hard in Rotherham or
:10:59. > :11:04.Rochdale. We are talking about one police force. This is the line we
:11:05. > :11:09.always here, that they have learned the lessons and are not like that
:11:10. > :11:12.any more. Actually, in this most recent inquest the police were still
:11:13. > :11:17.not telling the truth about what happened. That was the point I was
:11:18. > :11:22.going to make. I don't doubt some of those changes have come in. I have
:11:23. > :11:26.two brothers and a sister-in-law who are police officers. I know how they
:11:27. > :11:32.operate, how intelligently they operate as individual officers. But
:11:33. > :11:36.in the inquest, the lies were peddled out again, almost to be
:11:37. > :11:41.tested to exhaustion. Still people have said to me since Jews do, yes,
:11:42. > :11:53.but... What more do you want? They have been tested to exhaustion and
:11:54. > :11:59.were rolled out recently. Has there been a breakdown in confidence or
:12:00. > :12:04.trust in the police? I think there has certainly been a sharp
:12:05. > :12:08.reduction. I have experienced it myself. I was part of a generation
:12:09. > :12:13.of Conservative politicians who would say to the public, we trust
:12:14. > :12:17.the police, they are at the forefront of the fight against
:12:18. > :12:21.crime. That has changed almost beyond recognition. On too many
:12:22. > :12:27.occasions it seemed that lying was the first response of the police. I
:12:28. > :12:30.think I should also broaden the issue and say that I don't think the
:12:31. > :12:37.National Health Service is very different. Time and again there is a
:12:38. > :12:40.constituency member who would try to enquire into something that had
:12:41. > :12:44.happened in hospital and the doors would close, the Solidarity would be
:12:45. > :12:49.there, there would be denial even that the person had been a patient.
:12:50. > :12:55.Or else you try investigating things that have happened in army barracks,
:12:56. > :13:01.and again the ranks close. That also involved police. To some extent. I
:13:02. > :13:06.think there is a misplaced institutional loyalty. In the case
:13:07. > :13:13.of the police what is clear, and less clear in the case of the Army,
:13:14. > :13:18.is that the lying is set by example from the top. You are right to say
:13:19. > :13:26.Theresa May has been excellent on this, but for me the most important
:13:27. > :13:30.voice in the Commons on Wednesday was actually Dominic Grieve, when he
:13:31. > :13:36.said, shortly after Theresa May and Andy Burnham had their exchange, he
:13:37. > :13:39.said we ourselves, meaning parliament, we ourselves and the
:13:40. > :13:44.institutions meant to protect and serve the public all need to go into
:13:45. > :13:50.a period of self examination. I thought that was the most mature...
:13:51. > :13:53.The former Tory Attorney General. The person who applied to have the
:13:54. > :13:57.original verdicts of Hillsborough overturned when the panel reported
:13:58. > :14:02.back. I thought that was the most important statement in the Commons.
:14:03. > :14:06.Isn't it also a case of demonising groups of people who the police, the
:14:07. > :14:11.army or the authorities think do not have the ability to respond?
:14:12. > :14:16.Football fans at that time were all thought of as being fair game.
:14:17. > :14:24.Whether it is the poorest in our community, racial minorities, there
:14:25. > :14:30.was a feeling by authority that these people who do not have a voice
:14:31. > :14:34.and can't get back at us, they would take a different attitude if there
:14:35. > :14:39.were people involved who were more assertive, powerful, had more money
:14:40. > :14:44.to pursue them through the courts. May I say something about people
:14:45. > :14:46.having a voice? I worked at BBC Merseyside on the day that
:14:47. > :14:49.Hillsborough happened in on the night of the tragedy I was placed on
:14:50. > :14:55.reception to be there when people came in. The fans came from the
:14:56. > :14:59.train stations, coach stations and their own cars into radio
:15:00. > :15:02.Merseyside, the Liverpool Echo, because they knew they were being
:15:03. > :15:07.lied about and they knew they did not have a voice. They came to their
:15:08. > :15:10.local radio stations to get a voice and they did get a voice that way.
:15:11. > :15:12.But without local journalists actually staying with them, they
:15:13. > :15:30.would not have had that voice. What would police reform look like?
:15:31. > :15:34.If their morale is bad, is there not a need for a proper professional
:15:35. > :15:40.officer class in the police in this country? That's what's getting
:15:41. > :15:44.introduced by the Tom Windsor report. They tried it in the 30s
:15:45. > :15:48.then abandoned it. It's accountability isn't it and there
:15:49. > :15:52.are different levels that have been introduced and they have changed
:15:53. > :15:56.frequently. Now the IPCC have come under so some fire, I think they are
:15:57. > :15:59.going to change again and it's finding the right level of
:16:00. > :16:02.accountability so that people can be assured that there is a proper
:16:03. > :16:07.procedure. It's the same actually with the NHS. There are various
:16:08. > :16:12.groups. People come to their MP because the system which is now I
:16:13. > :16:20.think PALS just doesn't work. It's hard to hold people accountable when
:16:21. > :16:24.the former cabal and lie. Is there not a case for police reform in this
:16:25. > :16:28.country? Yes, but I very much sympathise with your question about
:16:29. > :16:32.what that night look like. Having had some experience in the Armed
:16:33. > :16:34.Forces, the Armed Forces on the whole have a pretty good model
:16:35. > :16:38.therefore I think probably that should be tried in the case of the
:16:39. > :16:41.police. I suppose there is a genuine problem here which is, you are
:16:42. > :16:45.trying to train people to believe that they can absolutely rely on the
:16:46. > :16:51.person next to them, whether you are talking about a policeman or soldier
:16:52. > :16:54.or even a nurse or a doctor. How you make that compatible with the belief
:16:55. > :16:59.that nonetheless those people will tell the truth about you, if you
:17:00. > :17:03.have made a mistake or a bad decision, I mean I can see there is
:17:04. > :17:08.a genuine dilemma there, but clearly at the moment that has been resolved
:17:09. > :17:14.in a very unsatisfactory way. A final thought from you, Shelagh? I
:17:15. > :17:22.thought it was interesting when you said is part of the top of the class
:17:23. > :17:27.officer, I think class might be part of this. What you need rising to the
:17:28. > :17:33.top of the police force is, I'm not promoting my own family, I'm saying
:17:34. > :17:36.you need decent, intelligent men or women whatever their educational
:17:37. > :17:41.background. I didn't mean social background? I know, I know what you
:17:42. > :17:44.meant but that is part of it. One of the police officers who rang me on
:17:45. > :17:47.Tuesday, on the day of the actual findings of the inquest, who is a
:17:48. > :17:52.serving police officer in Essex police force, said to me, the
:17:53. > :17:56.promotion system stinks, good decent officers steer clear of it. That's
:17:57. > :17:57.what needs to change. They need to stop steering clear of it. Thank you
:17:58. > :18:01.for being with us. Thank you. Now, it's late - Tom Daley's Olympic
:18:02. > :18:03.budgie smugglers late. So let's hope Tom didn't catch
:18:04. > :18:06.a cold and go to bed early. Because waiting in the wings,
:18:07. > :18:09.keeping us all up late, broadcaster and historian,
:18:10. > :18:12.Suzannah Lipscomb is here. To tell us why buildings matter in
:18:13. > :18:16.the world of power and politics. And if you think your views matter,
:18:17. > :18:19.you couldn't be more wrong, as we continue to ignore
:18:20. > :18:23.all your idiotic comments on The Twitter, The Fleecebook
:18:24. > :18:26.and Gordon Brown's Now, when the This Week
:18:27. > :18:32.studio got a makeover, Being incredibly cool, I suggested
:18:33. > :18:37.a hipster vibe, of course, bare filament light bulbs,
:18:38. > :18:39.cracked subway tiles, jam jars, the "full beard",
:18:40. > :18:45.as some East Londoners might say. But according to Michael,
:18:46. > :18:48.who knows a thing or two about fancy interior design, that
:18:49. > :18:51.look was already passe, and lucky for you that his singular
:18:52. > :18:54.vision won the day. And that explains why we sit here
:18:55. > :18:59.before you in the neon pink glow of a budget recreation of 1980s
:19:00. > :19:04.Tom Cruise movie Cocktail. So next time, it's my turn and I've
:19:05. > :19:08.decided to get my own Here's The Economist magazine's
:19:09. > :19:15.Anne McElvoy with her refurbished Parliament announced a major
:19:16. > :19:26.refurbishment of Big Ben this week, and the chaps in the studio
:19:27. > :19:31.were on the sofa talking about it back when it was first
:19:32. > :19:33.being installed in 1859. So the producers thought
:19:34. > :19:37.I could renovate their This Week broom cupboard, or studio
:19:38. > :19:40.as they like to call it, and sent me to get an NVQ
:19:41. > :19:43.in construction studies. Theresa May, the Home Secretary,
:19:44. > :19:56.isn't usually one for But when she gave a speech this
:19:57. > :20:00.week nailing her support for the EU Remain cause,
:20:01. > :20:04.she added a surprise extension, slating the European
:20:05. > :20:07.Court of Human Rights. The ECHR can bind the hands
:20:08. > :20:11.of Parliament, adds nothing to our prosperity, makes us less
:20:12. > :20:14.secure by preventing the deportation of dangerous foreign nationals,
:20:15. > :20:16.and does nothing to change the attitudes of governments
:20:17. > :20:20.like Russia's when it So regardless of the EU
:20:21. > :20:25.referendum, my view is this - if we want to reform human rights
:20:26. > :20:28.laws in this country, it isn't the EU we should leave
:20:29. > :20:31.by the ECHR and the jurisdiction There had been rumours of a possible
:20:32. > :20:46.watering down of the Government's school academy plans,
:20:47. > :20:50.and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn pressed David Cameron
:20:51. > :20:54.on whether a U-turn was becoming It has been reported
:20:55. > :21:02.that the Government is considering allowing good local
:21:03. > :21:04.authorities to form Ironically, this would actually give
:21:05. > :21:13.local authorities more responsibility for running schools
:21:14. > :21:15.than they have now. As I said last week -
:21:16. > :21:18.and it is good, I like repeats on television and I'm happy to have
:21:19. > :21:22.them in the House as well - as I said last week,
:21:23. > :21:24.outstanding schools have nothing to fear from becoming academies,
:21:25. > :21:28.and indeed have a lot to gain. And just because a school
:21:29. > :21:31.is outstanding or good doesn't mean Last ditch attempts in Parliament
:21:32. > :21:37.this week to avert a junior doctors' Many of them stopped providing
:21:38. > :21:45.emergency care, a first in the NHS. And Labour's Dennis Skinner couldn't
:21:46. > :21:49.resist having a dig at the Health Secretary's poorly
:21:50. > :21:56.constructed solutions. He could start negotiations today,
:21:57. > :22:00.wipe that smirk off his face, get But instead he comes
:22:01. > :22:13.in to here to try and blame the opposition for
:22:14. > :22:16.what is taking place. The junior doctors' committee
:22:17. > :22:20.of the BMA were not willing to have those constructive discussions,
:22:21. > :22:24.which is why we face the tragic And I hope he recognises,
:22:25. > :22:29.when he says it takes two sides, that we do need a counterparty
:22:30. > :22:33.we can have sensible negotiations with, and we haven't had
:22:34. > :22:35.that this time. But Labour had trouble, too,
:22:36. > :22:37.forced to suspend backbencher Naz Shah over claims she had made
:22:38. > :22:40.anti-Semitic comments I accept and understand
:22:41. > :22:45.that the words I used caused upset and hurt to the Jewish community
:22:46. > :22:49.and I deeply regret that. As an MP, I will do everything
:22:50. > :22:55.in my power to build relations between Muslims, Jews and people
:22:56. > :22:59.of different faiths and none. I truly regret what I did
:23:00. > :23:04.and I hope, I sincerely hope, that this house will accept
:23:05. > :23:09.my profound apology. You Nazi apologist,
:23:10. > :23:14.rewriting history. Some may have thought that
:23:15. > :23:18.would have drawn a line Former London Mayor Ken Livingstone
:23:19. > :23:32.defended Naz Shah in a radio interview today, and ventured
:23:33. > :23:35.unwisely into historical analysis, adding that Hitler was supporting
:23:36. > :23:38.Zionism before he went mad and ended His remarks then prompted these
:23:39. > :23:42.extraordinary scenes on a staircase
:23:43. > :23:44.in Westminster. Factually wrong, factually
:23:45. > :23:49.wrong racist remarks. That was the policy
:23:50. > :23:53.they ran on in '32. To deport all the Jews
:23:54. > :23:55.of Germany to Israel. Mr Livingstone has since been
:23:56. > :23:58.suspended from the party It's been a week of carefully
:23:59. > :24:05.constructed votes and propositions at Westminster, but this time
:24:06. > :24:08.in a week the political landscape could look very different,
:24:09. > :24:12.as the public gets to have its say In local council elections in
:24:13. > :24:17.England. The Mayor of London
:24:18. > :24:20.and London Assembly. And the Police and Crime
:24:21. > :24:29.Commissioner elections. Now, what else might need a little
:24:30. > :24:32.repair and restoration to stop Anne McElvoy contravening all health
:24:33. > :24:49.and safety regulations there. And we're joined in the studio
:24:50. > :24:53.by the lovely Miranda Green. And by the man who Angus Robertson
:24:54. > :24:56.has every reason to be nervous of "on manoeuvres" in Westminster
:24:57. > :25:00.and on our sofa tonight, ambitious SNP superstar, John
:25:01. > :25:14.Nicolson. Alan Johnson, should Ken Livingstone
:25:15. > :25:17.remain in the Labour Party? It's certainly true there is no Labour
:25:18. > :25:24.problem that the arrival of Ken Livingstone can't make worse. I
:25:25. > :25:29.wouldn't go as far as chucking anyone out of the Labour Party just
:25:30. > :25:35.now. I've got a feeling Naz Shah is the only one that emerges with
:25:36. > :25:44.credit because her apology was fullsome, her local synagogue
:25:45. > :25:49.tweeted on it. She was repentent. Once she got rumbled? ! She
:25:50. > :25:53.described the remark as anti-Semitic then Ken says it wasn't so he didn't
:25:54. > :25:58.help the situation at all, I don't know why he just didn't refuse the
:25:59. > :26:03.opportunities to go on and say something. Jeremy Corbyn hasn't
:26:04. > :26:07.suspended her either. Has he been half hearted or slow in his response
:26:08. > :26:11.to these cases of anti-Semitism in your party? Well, that might be the
:26:12. > :26:16.worst accusation you could throw at him that he was slow in responding.
:26:17. > :26:20.No-one could suggest he's anti-Semitic and no-one can suggest
:26:21. > :26:26.our party is, which is why dealing with this quickly, I take your
:26:27. > :26:31.point, has to be done soon. She herself realised, has Shah that
:26:32. > :26:37.stepping down as PPS wasn't good enough, it has to go further -- Naz
:26:38. > :26:40.Shah. She's done that. Mr Corbyn denies there is a crisis. Is there
:26:41. > :26:44.one? You have been in politics a long time. If you question any
:26:45. > :26:48.leader and say, is this a crisis, you are unlikely to get the answer
:26:49. > :26:53.yes. But is it? I hope not. There is an awful lot of these cases coming.
:26:54. > :26:57.When I started in journalism, the anti-Semitism was largely confined
:26:58. > :27:02.to the hard right, even including parts of the Conservative Party.
:27:03. > :27:06.Today, it seems to be coming from a wing of your party. We are not an
:27:07. > :27:13.anti-Semitic party. That's not what I said. The Conservatives were not
:27:14. > :27:17.an anti-Semitic party but had people in their right-wing. Your party
:27:18. > :27:24.seems to have taken over this mantle. There was a problem at
:27:25. > :27:27.Oxford in the Labour club. We have never been allowed to see that
:27:28. > :27:31.report. She hasn't completed the report. There was an original report
:27:32. > :27:36.done by the Labour students which was then suppressed in a bigger and
:27:37. > :27:42.more overarching report was put in its place? I think this situation
:27:43. > :27:46.was being dealt with reasonably and then in comes Ken Livingstone and
:27:47. > :27:53.stirs it up. What do you think? I think there's a problem on the left
:27:54. > :28:00.with a sort of anti- Western instinct. This is easily sort of
:28:01. > :28:07.seen in parallel with an anti-Israeli rhetoric and then,
:28:08. > :28:11.obviously, that can slide over into anti-Semitism and it happens far too
:28:12. > :28:15.frequently and then a lot of discussions about Israel and the
:28:16. > :28:19.legitimate criticisms of Israel are carried on in a terrible A
:28:20. > :28:25.historical way without appreciating why the state of Israel was created.
:28:26. > :28:30.You had a Liberal Democrat MP who made outrageous statements? I agree.
:28:31. > :28:34.Made in a Parliamentary speech. Would you say the Liberal Democrats
:28:35. > :28:38.are anti-Semitic? He should have been got rid of. He was on the
:28:39. > :28:44.suspended. A peer who tried to justify terrorism. He had the whip
:28:45. > :28:48.withdrawn but there should be zero tolerance for it because it slides
:28:49. > :28:53.over to the origin of violence. Should Ken Livingstone be removed
:28:54. > :28:57.from the Labour Party? He's certainly doing the Labour Party
:28:58. > :29:05.enormous damage. It struck me, listening to that interview, that it
:29:06. > :29:08.was the worst crushing pub bore with that semi-informed but utterly
:29:09. > :29:15.self-confident description of German history. That thing that he said
:29:16. > :29:22.about after Hitler went mad, as if there was a previous rational
:29:23. > :29:26.Hitler, you know, maybe the one that wrote... He obviously wasn't mad
:29:27. > :29:34.when he wrote that? No, completely rational. I mean, it was just, as we
:29:35. > :29:38.say in Scotland, Havering and I have to say... You are Havering a bit too
:29:39. > :29:43.because you haven't answered my question. Should he be thrown out.
:29:44. > :29:48.That is a matter for the Labour Party. I'm asking you? I would be
:29:49. > :29:52.uncomfortable having him in the party and I think one of the
:29:53. > :29:57.problems with Jeremy Corbyn whom I'm sure is a very nice man is, he's so
:29:58. > :30:01.indecisive and, there was a great metaphor I thought for his
:30:02. > :30:05.leadership today which is, he saw the cameras coming and swerved to
:30:06. > :30:10.try to avoid them. Instead of going straight up to the camera, giving a
:30:11. > :30:16.clear well considered response, he ran away for a couple of hours. It
:30:17. > :30:22.just makes him seem uncertain and directionless. Why is this
:30:23. > :30:24.anti-Semitism finding more on the left -- found more on the left than
:30:25. > :30:41.its traditional place on the right? I could not swear there was none on
:30:42. > :30:46.the right. The recent cases have been on the left. The new element
:30:47. > :30:50.has been a development in the Labour Party in particular to Israeli
:30:51. > :30:55.policy. One understands why many people object to Israeli policy.
:30:56. > :30:58.Many Israelis object to Israeli policy. But I do not know how this
:30:59. > :31:05.has crossed over into something that looks like anti-Semitism. To me, it
:31:06. > :31:09.is extraordinary, particularly as a London politician, as I was for a
:31:10. > :31:14.long time. There was a terrific solid Jewish Labour support, and a
:31:15. > :31:22.fantastic amount of Jewish Labour money. It is all very well to say
:31:23. > :31:25.that Jeremy Corbyn, if you ask any leader he will say there is no
:31:26. > :31:30.crisis. What struck me was that Jeremy Corbyn really looked as if he
:31:31. > :31:35.thought there was not a crisis, as though it had not occurred to him
:31:36. > :31:38.that there was. Clearly, not only the reputation of the Labour Party,
:31:39. > :31:44.but the damage to its electorate and the damage to its finances, just
:31:45. > :31:49.before a whole series of elections. Coming onto the doctors' strike. You
:31:50. > :31:56.have been Health Secretary. Where is it going? In one sense, I sympathise
:31:57. > :32:05.with Jeremy Hunt. It is difficult dealing with the BMA. You want to
:32:06. > :32:12.describe the BMA as Scargill with a stethoscope. Not a bad line! Not the
:32:13. > :32:17.union, the person I was dealing with, who became a good friend of
:32:18. > :32:20.mine. I was negotiating with him. There was a time in this dispute
:32:21. > :32:27.where I think there could have been a settlement. Doctor Dan Poulter,
:32:28. > :32:31.who was a junior minister who served under Jeremy Hunt, was part of the
:32:32. > :32:37.consensus to say there is a way out of this that allows both sides to
:32:38. > :32:41.come out. Jeremy Hunt was foolish to reject that. Perhaps foolish not to
:32:42. > :32:45.getting gauged in developing a consensus somewhere along the line.
:32:46. > :32:50.He is now in a terrible situation and the junior doctors are in a
:32:51. > :32:54.terrible situation. I know from experience, because I was a union
:32:55. > :33:03.leader, that once you take the strike, as opposed to threatening
:33:04. > :33:09.it, in a way, all bets are off. He wants a fight, doesn't he? That is
:33:10. > :33:12.clear. Doctor Philippa Whitford, our health spokesperson, who knows
:33:13. > :33:15.something about this because she is a breast cancer surgeon and we are
:33:16. > :33:20.not having these fights in Scotland with junior doctors. She joined a
:33:21. > :33:24.Conservative and Labour people in sending the letter to him. It was
:33:25. > :33:34.disappointing that he responded with a dismissive tweet. Is there not a
:33:35. > :33:41.grave danger to your party on May the 5th that you do not win every
:33:42. > :33:48.seat? I don't know what is going to happen. Yes, you do. I am
:33:49. > :33:55.contractually obliged to say we are taking nothing for granted. That is
:33:56. > :33:59.the phrase I have to use. Who is going to come second? I am not
:34:00. > :34:07.meeting many Labour voters on the doorsteps. Those that I talked to
:34:08. > :34:13.quite often say, I am so depressed about the party that I am going to
:34:14. > :34:17.abstain. I think the huge shift from the Labour Party to the SNP happened
:34:18. > :34:25.at the time of last year's general election. That has definitely
:34:26. > :34:33.remained. Is this going to be the beginning of the Lib Dem fightback?
:34:34. > :34:38.One years a short time for the start of a generational recovery. I just
:34:39. > :34:46.said the beginning. It would nice -- it would be nice to see some green
:34:47. > :34:50.shoots. Does Tim Farron have any cut through? It ought to be the case
:34:51. > :34:53.that with the Conservative Party tearing itself to pieces over Europe
:34:54. > :35:00.and Labour having many embarrassing days, that there was a Lib Dem voice
:35:01. > :35:07.of reason. You have been written out of the script. I think that is true.
:35:08. > :35:10.They say that in individual council by-elections they are starting to
:35:11. > :35:15.win back territory they held before. It is a long road. Thank you, both.
:35:16. > :35:18.Now, every student of British politics knows where true power
:35:19. > :35:21.resides in this country - here in the This Week studio,
:35:22. > :35:23.the real Palace of Westminster, cradle of our democracy,
:35:24. > :35:26.This Week is the esteemed forum in which men, women,
:35:27. > :35:29.and Michael Portillo gather together to debate, argue, and decide
:35:30. > :35:32.the fate of nations and people whilst Joey Essex waits in the wings
:35:33. > :35:36.And that's why we're so admired all around the world and why we're
:35:37. > :35:44.putting "seats of power" in this week's Spotlight.
:35:45. > :35:53.It was announced this week that Big Ben's bongs will soon fall
:35:54. > :35:55.silent when a three-year conservation project
:35:56. > :36:00.It's a world-famous seat of power and symbol of democracy,
:36:01. > :36:03.but to preserve a historic building, maybe you've got to
:36:04. > :36:14.And if the Elisabeth Tower needs work, how about the rest
:36:15. > :36:21.It looks like MPs and peers may have to clear out while multi-billion
:36:22. > :36:26.Although the Prime Minister is said to favour staying put.
:36:27. > :36:36.The great seats of power might be built to last
:36:37. > :36:39.but there is no doubting the care and attention they require.
:36:40. > :36:42.So hard luck if you wanted a Twelfie in front of the US Capitol Building,
:36:43. > :36:49.whose dome has been hidden behind scaffolding since 2014.
:36:50. > :36:51.Historian Suzannah Lipscomb understands the challenges
:36:52. > :36:56.She's been a consultant to the historic Royal palaces.
:36:57. > :36:59.Time is certainly ticking for the Palace of Westminster.
:37:00. > :37:01.Could it soon become history, and would a change
:37:02. > :37:13.of location breathe new life into an old democratic institution?
:37:14. > :37:25.Suzannah Lipscomb joins us. Welcome. Thank you. It is important, is not,
:37:26. > :37:30.for a seat of power to emanate a certain gravitas? I think so.
:37:31. > :37:35.Historically, we have had churches built to the glory of God, or even a
:37:36. > :37:40.football stadium built to reflect the grandeur of the game. It keep
:37:41. > :37:44.people out as well as keeping them in. I think there is a sense that
:37:45. > :37:47.actually of course you want the houses of Parliament to reflect the
:37:48. > :37:54.history. Everything that has happened there, on that very spot.
:37:55. > :37:59.You sense it when you walk through Westminster Hall. Absolutely. The
:38:00. > :38:02.Americans thought when they were building their parliament that it
:38:03. > :38:09.needed gravitas. They gave it roman grandeur. When they were rebuilding
:38:10. > :38:13.the houses of parliament in the 19th century there was a choice between
:38:14. > :38:17.going with a classical look, which was very fashionable, or going with
:38:18. > :38:21.the perpendicular Gothic. That decision was made partly because
:38:22. > :38:23.they were harking back to the fact that there had been parliament
:38:24. > :38:30.meeting there since the 13th century. We all know it is 19th
:38:31. > :38:37.century, but a tourist could mistake it for a medieval building, which is
:38:38. > :38:41.what it represents, I suppose. They may have to get out to do the
:38:42. > :38:47.renovations, but that is to be temporary. You would be against
:38:48. > :38:54.moving the building altogether, turning it into a museum? Gosh. It
:38:55. > :38:58.does seem like it would make sense. It makes sense for them to go out in
:38:59. > :39:01.order to have the work done at a lower cost than keeping members of
:39:02. > :39:05.Parliament in the building whilst work is going on, and being good
:39:06. > :39:11.stewards of taxpayers' money, because it will run to billions, but
:39:12. > :39:15.I think there is something about if you change the space they operate
:39:16. > :39:20.in, there will be consequences. And some of those might be positive. It
:39:21. > :39:24.might be that you create a more inclusive space. The way that the
:39:25. > :39:30.Scottish and Welsh parliaments are more in the round, rather than the
:39:31. > :39:36.adversarial Commons. Exactly, which may not be up-to-date with current
:39:37. > :39:39.politics. But on the other hand, this is not necessarily rational,
:39:40. > :39:43.but there is something about new buildings that sometimes feels
:39:44. > :39:48.soulless, perhaps because they have not had lots of souls in them. In a
:39:49. > :39:52.historic building, you have a sense that the veil between the past and
:39:53. > :39:58.present feels then, and somehow embedded in the stonework is the
:39:59. > :40:01.memory of the place, and the weightiness. Members of Parliament,
:40:02. > :40:07.who know that these decisions have been made in this space... I am
:40:08. > :40:11.looking at former numbers of Parliament. They have a sense of the
:40:12. > :40:17.responsibility, of the decisions made. If you had a federal system
:40:18. > :40:21.you could keep Parliament across the road as the UK Parliament and move
:40:22. > :40:27.the English Parliament to the north. You could move it to Hull. We did
:40:28. > :40:31.leave Parliament because the chamber was bombed in the Second World War
:40:32. > :40:36.and they went to church house. Some of Churchill's momentous speeches
:40:37. > :40:40.were made there. So I am all for leaving temporarily, if that is what
:40:41. > :40:46.it needs to fix it. It would be ridiculous to move out permanently.
:40:47. > :40:50.The building is not that old. Not much older than the US Congress.
:40:51. > :40:58.Westminster Hall is. The firefighters in the war left the
:40:59. > :41:02.chamber to burn to save the medieval hall. With the amazing wood and
:41:03. > :41:10.beams. You would stay in the House of Commons. Yes, for all the reasons
:41:11. > :41:15.we have heard. I felt that connection with great parliamentary
:41:16. > :41:18.history. Even the parliamentary history that preceded that set of
:41:19. > :41:23.buildings, because before that there were other buildings. But on a
:41:24. > :41:28.temporary basis we have nothing to fear if Parliament has to move out.
:41:29. > :41:35.No wonder calls that Churchill made those stirring speeches in Church
:41:36. > :41:36.house, but he did. -- no one recalls. You have nothing to plug,
:41:37. > :41:39.which is a first. That's your lot for
:41:40. > :41:41.tonight folks and for us. Because we leave you tonight
:41:42. > :41:43.with yesterday's historic scenes in Liverpool, when red roses,
:41:44. > :41:46.flowers and candles were laid in memory, and the crowds paid
:41:47. > :41:49.a typically vocal tribute to the 96 victims of the Hillsborough tragedy
:41:50. > :41:52.and to the ordinary families, friends and supporters who kept
:41:53. > :41:58.the campaign for justice and vindication alive
:41:59. > :42:02.for a generation, even when it seemed all was arraigned
:42:03. > :42:07.against them, and their only ally was their own burning
:42:08. > :42:34.desire for the truth. # War crimes, walk on, with hope in
:42:35. > :42:41.your heart # And you will never walk alone