:00:09. > :00:13.Tonight on this Week's Game of Thrones:
:00:14. > :00:20.But say what you wish, there will always be battles
:00:21. > :00:26.His Lordship, John Bird, tells us why the haves
:00:27. > :00:32.There are no great victories for the poor to be seen in the flames.
:00:33. > :00:40.And those who seek to help, give the wrong medicine.
:00:41. > :00:42.Pomp and heraldry greeted the return of Queen Elizabeth II
:00:43. > :00:46.to Westminster, but were all her subjects pleased?
:00:47. > :00:50.Lord of the North, Andrew Rawnsley, is not impressed.
:00:51. > :00:52.Lord Cameron of House Tory tried to distract his party
:00:53. > :00:58.But by the old gods and the new, nothing could stop the blue
:00:59. > :01:11.We resurrect top reptilian conspiracy theorist,
:01:12. > :01:22.What am I doing on mainstream television? Did I come through the
:01:23. > :01:24.wrong door? Who will be the one to lead us
:01:25. > :01:27.through this endless night? Evenin' all, welcome
:01:28. > :01:43.to This Week, the week And we can tell by the look
:01:44. > :01:48.on your face that you're A king-size Whopper of a speech
:01:49. > :01:55.with extra fries and a full-fat There are the usual Moaning Minnies
:01:56. > :02:00.who say the referendum is proving a huge distraction from
:02:01. > :02:02.the business of government. But just look at what Her Maj read
:02:03. > :02:06.out yesterday and you'll see why Call-Me-Dave sacrificed a low-flying
:02:07. > :02:09.career in public relations And why the Labour Party,
:02:10. > :02:15.even led by a political Titan like Jezza, is facing a life-sapping
:02:16. > :02:20.generation in opposition. You wanted a Small Charitable
:02:21. > :02:23.Donations Bill, clarifying the rules concerning how charities
:02:24. > :02:25.connected with community You called for a Cultural Property
:02:26. > :02:31.Bill, to make dealing in cultural property illegally exported
:02:32. > :02:32.from occupied territories And forget a third
:02:33. > :02:41.runway at Heathrow - who needs that when
:02:42. > :02:43.we're going to build You can hear them quaking
:02:44. > :02:52.in Cape Canaveral as I speak. Who cares if Zac Goldsmith threatens
:02:53. > :02:55.to resign and trigger This is progressive,
:02:56. > :03:00.visionary, centrist Proof - if proof were needed -
:03:01. > :03:06.that the Lib Dems Provided, of course,
:03:07. > :03:12.you're not worried about the slowing of the economy, the condition
:03:13. > :03:15.of the poor, the high budget deficit I don't think any of that rated
:03:16. > :03:22.a mention. Speaking of a lack of ambition,
:03:23. > :03:24.I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two Westminster duds we found
:03:25. > :03:27.in the This Week toilets. Think of them as the suspect device
:03:28. > :03:32.and the suspect package I speak, of course, of #fourpercent
:03:33. > :03:37.Liz "Miserables" Kendall and #sadmanonatrain Michael
:03:38. > :03:52."Choo Choo" Portillo. Your moment of the week? I want to
:03:53. > :03:58.pick up where you left off because the Queens speech was the moment of
:03:59. > :04:04.the week. In 2015, a majority Conservative government was elected
:04:05. > :04:08.for the first time since 1992. 23 years, we have waited with bated
:04:09. > :04:12.breath for this. Now it comes forward with its Queens speech,
:04:13. > :04:16.after 23 years of careful thought about what they would like to do
:04:17. > :04:21.with office and power. And the answer is, there is nothing they
:04:22. > :04:24.want to do with office or power. The Government is in total paralysis
:04:25. > :04:28.because the only thing that matters to them now is saving the Prime
:04:29. > :04:30.Minister's career, which is dependent only on winning the
:04:31. > :04:36.referendum for the remainder campaign. And that majority that he
:04:37. > :04:41.secured last year is all for nothing. The Government has nothing
:04:42. > :04:47.to do, nothing to say and thinks nothing. Very well. He is not on the
:04:48. > :04:51.fence. I am going to cheer everybody up. My moment of the week was
:04:52. > :04:57.Monday's parade celebrating Leicester City's football club
:04:58. > :05:03.winning the Premier League. It was amazing. I just thought I would rub
:05:04. > :05:05.it in a little bit more. I think as Brits we are used to falling at the
:05:06. > :05:11.last hurdle and something going wrong. But this time things did not
:05:12. > :05:16.go wrong and I am very proud we worked so hard as a team. We didn't
:05:17. > :05:23.give up, and despite all the odds, we won. For me, the taste of victory
:05:24. > :05:28.was very sweet indeed. It was an amazing day for the city and I think
:05:29. > :05:34.a lot of people in the country were happy and pleased. So a big night
:05:35. > :05:36.for rugby union in Leicester. Oh, it was the round ball, was it? We will
:05:37. > :05:39.have a kick about later. Now, in a week where Her Maj
:05:40. > :05:41.outlined 21 new government Bills, what will any of them do to help
:05:42. > :05:44.Britain's disadvantaged? Why is there still so much poverty
:05:45. > :05:47.in this, the fifth largest economy in the world,
:05:48. > :05:49.with its massive welfare state Here's Big Issue founder Lord John
:05:50. > :06:13.Bird with his take of the week. It wasn't so long ago that
:06:14. > :06:16.David Cameron, in a bid to leave some kind of legacy,
:06:17. > :06:18.called for an all-out The right prescription but maybe
:06:19. > :06:24.the wrong medicine. Because many of those who deliver
:06:25. > :06:27.policies for the poor do so as if the poor are some
:06:28. > :06:32.strange other species. We cannot assault poverty if those
:06:33. > :06:48.suffering under it are seen We need to treat the poor as though
:06:49. > :06:57.they have potential and the ability Unfortunately, the well-intentioned
:06:58. > :07:03.hold them back. Government is often doing the wrong
:07:04. > :07:06.thing, spending too much money on keeping people in poverty,
:07:07. > :07:11.rather than getting them out. At times it seems like a conspiracy
:07:12. > :07:14.of dunces, where they haven't joined It's those at the bottom of society
:07:15. > :07:22.who are feeling the consequences. We fail people at school,
:07:23. > :07:25.and often they end up in prison, or in A, as a result of self harm
:07:26. > :07:32.or drink and drugs. And this week we've had
:07:33. > :07:35.the Queens Speech outlining 21 bills, none of which will
:07:36. > :07:43.help to dismantle poverty. It's a terrible tragedy,
:07:44. > :07:46.but the thing is, unless you fare well on welfare, you can't
:07:47. > :07:52.say farewell to welfare. Most importantly, we need to knock
:07:53. > :07:55.on the head the abysmal failure to bring intelligence,
:07:56. > :08:01.theirs or ours, to the problem. Because we have another problem
:08:02. > :08:04.coming down the track, the young, middle-class people
:08:05. > :08:06.lumbered with student debts and unable to buy houses
:08:07. > :08:14.and raise their families. Each government says it's
:08:15. > :08:18.going to end poverty, but now is the time
:08:19. > :08:27.to actually get on with it. From Vauxhall City Farm
:08:28. > :08:41.to our own little This Week pigsty, John, if you had been writing the
:08:42. > :08:45.Queen's Speech and there was one thing you could do about poverty,
:08:46. > :08:55.what would you have put into that speech? I would have demanded of the
:08:56. > :09:04.poor and those people who are stuck in poverty, the postponement of,
:09:05. > :09:15.what is the word, you know that word, postponement of... The benefit
:09:16. > :09:18.cap? No, no. I would say that the poor need to learn what you have
:09:19. > :09:23.learned and you have learned and I have learned, which is the fact that
:09:24. > :09:31.you postpone the idea of gratification. And the unfortunate
:09:32. > :09:34.thing is that all these people in the Labour Party and the
:09:35. > :09:37.Conservative Party and everybody else, and what they are doing is
:09:38. > :09:42.they are almost conspiring in keeping the poor poor. Because they
:09:43. > :09:47.don't face up to the idea that living in poverty is a bit of a
:09:48. > :09:53.killer. But I am sure by definition if you are poor you are pretty much
:09:54. > :09:57.having to postpone gratification. Oui sorry. If you are poor, you do
:09:58. > :10:07.not have much to gratify yourself in the first place. Is it the poor who
:10:08. > :10:11.are to blame because they are poor? Who is talking about blame? We are
:10:12. > :10:14.talking about a mechanism for getting out of poverty and all this
:10:15. > :10:19.stuff about who to blame and who not to blame... The really important
:10:20. > :10:23.thing is, do we allow the poor to carry on being poor, or do we allow
:10:24. > :10:28.them to express themselves and move out of poverty? The most important
:10:29. > :10:36.thing about the postponement of gratification is that Mr Portillo
:10:37. > :10:41.and Liz Kendall, at some stage your family postpone gratification and
:10:42. > :10:49.saved for the future. And they never do that because nobody ever allows
:10:50. > :10:56.the poor to be like us. They look upon the poor as though the poor are
:10:57. > :10:59.another species. Lives, what is the position of poverty in this country?
:11:00. > :11:06.We were looking through some of the figures. -- Liz. Almost one third of
:11:07. > :11:10.the population fell into a technical definition of poverty in the first
:11:11. > :11:14.three years that David Cameron became Prime Minister but also those
:11:15. > :11:17.who fall into poverty have a greater chance of seeing their fortune
:11:18. > :11:22.improve than anywhere else in Europe. Surprising to me, persistent
:11:23. > :11:27.poverty is the third lowest in Europe. What do you see as the
:11:28. > :11:31.picture? It is clear that poverty can happen to many people. We tend
:11:32. > :11:35.to discuss it as if it happens to other people but many people can
:11:36. > :11:40.fall in and out of poverty. The biggest change has been the increase
:11:41. > :11:44.in the number of working poor, and the endemic low pay in this country
:11:45. > :11:50.is one of the underlying causes of poverty. Even though they are
:11:51. > :11:53.working, they get trapped. Trapped on low wages. Even before the
:11:54. > :11:56.financial crisis people were not seeing the benefit of growth in
:11:57. > :12:00.their pay packet. You asked about one thing that would make a
:12:01. > :12:05.difference in the Queen's Speech. I think the very early years of life,
:12:06. > :12:12.when kids in my constituency start school, aged three and a half, but
:12:13. > :12:16.develop between 15 and 20 months behind where they should be, they
:12:17. > :12:19.play catch up for the rest of their lives. I would like to see
:12:20. > :12:23.investment in the early years to halt kids start school ready to
:12:24. > :12:27.learn, instead of an inheritance tax cut for the rich which entrenches
:12:28. > :12:33.wealth and privilege. You would need more than the savings of the
:12:34. > :12:37.inheritance tax cut. This government, and Gordon Brown before,
:12:38. > :12:41.as Prime Minister and as Chancellor, always thought that work was the way
:12:42. > :12:47.out of poverty. For many people it is. If work only takes you into the
:12:48. > :12:51.working poor and you need tax credits to top it up, and if you
:12:52. > :12:58.earn extra bed tax credits go and it is not worth your while, then we
:12:59. > :13:02.have a working poor problem. What you said, if I understood correctly,
:13:03. > :13:06.was that you thought aid for working people here is low by comparison
:13:07. > :13:09.with other countries, which it certainly is not. The one thing the
:13:10. > :13:14.Government has announced and has started to do is to increase the
:13:15. > :13:18.minimum wage, which they call a living wage. The minimum wage will
:13:19. > :13:22.be increased substantially. My prediction is that the main effect
:13:23. > :13:25.will be to attract vast numbers of immigrants, because our pay is not
:13:26. > :13:31.low by comparison with other countries. If you take the European
:13:32. > :13:33.Union, within which we have free movement, Romanians, Bulgarians,
:13:34. > :13:39.Spaniards for that matter are paid less than British people. But if you
:13:40. > :13:42.think the problem is the amount working people are paid, that is
:13:43. > :13:47.precisely what the Government has tackled in a way that no previous
:13:48. > :13:53.government has set out to do. Have previous welfare reforms been a
:13:54. > :13:59.mistake? People who should not have been put on social security are then
:14:00. > :14:05.driven off at some stage when their lives have been destroyed by Social
:14:06. > :14:10.Security. What happens with Social Security is that it really destroys
:14:11. > :14:14.lives. I am not just talking about facts and figures but members of my
:14:15. > :14:19.own family who have been caught in this terrible world, where you give
:14:20. > :14:24.people Social Security, which you think is a good idea because you
:14:25. > :14:28.don't want them back in the 1930s on the streets. But the real thing is
:14:29. > :14:30.that it destroys their chance of ever moving and becoming a Michael
:14:31. > :14:42.Portillo or whatever. But poverty was much worse when we
:14:43. > :14:48.didn't have Social Security. I was born in abject poverty before the
:14:49. > :14:53.days, before the welfare state, but the point is, it isn't so much
:14:54. > :14:58.comparing it, it's about the fact that what happens when you say to a
:14:59. > :15:05.person, you don't have to look after yourself. Somebody else will, with
:15:06. > :15:09.the state or whether it's a religion or somebody else, and that really
:15:10. > :15:13.does destroy the chances of getting out of poverty. The real problem is
:15:14. > :15:19.that most of the people on the left and the liberal ascendancy really
:15:20. > :15:26.don't like the idea of social mobility. They don't like the fact
:15:27. > :15:32.that there is a lot of people who aspire to get out of poverty,
:15:33. > :15:36.because the Polly Toynbees and the Wyn Joness and all these people,
:15:37. > :15:40.what they really want is they want people to stay where they are,
:15:41. > :15:50.because they are better with the poor than with people who get in and
:15:51. > :15:53.join their cast. What supports John's point of view is that the
:15:54. > :15:58.welfare budget has gone up and up every year, faster than most
:15:59. > :16:01.European countries, and yet there are still plenty of people saying
:16:02. > :16:08.that poverty is worse than ever. But that isn't true. More and more
:16:09. > :16:12.people are caught in poverty. Whether it is true or not, it must
:16:13. > :16:19.suggest that spending more money isn't the solution. Polly Toynbee
:16:20. > :16:26.isn't here to defend herself. Over 60 years, the love -- the welfare
:16:27. > :16:31.state, it started before the Second World War, but it would be took off
:16:32. > :16:37.in the late 40s, so we have got over 60 years of it, 70 years. There is a
:16:38. > :16:41.consensus that we need a welfare state, but as it has developed as
:16:42. > :16:48.they been an element in which the welfare state, rather than solving
:16:49. > :16:52.poverty, traps people in poverty? Without doubt, it does track people
:16:53. > :17:00.in poverty, but I don't recognise everything you are saying, John. I
:17:01. > :17:06.see my constituents, single parents who want to go back to work, maybe
:17:07. > :17:10.get some training, maybe go to university, they can't keep the
:17:11. > :17:14.benefits they pay the bills, but they want to better themselves and
:17:15. > :17:18.get on but the system isn't flexible enough. We talk about welfare as if
:17:19. > :17:25.it is all for working people. The vast bulk of it goes to older
:17:26. > :17:28.people. I think we must take the two too often, and it is working people
:17:29. > :17:36.who have borne the brunt of the cuts. -- we mistake the two. We need
:17:37. > :17:44.to see a rebalancing of that situation. We must end there. Are
:17:45. > :17:49.you going to join the House of Lords? I am not, because that is all
:17:50. > :17:51.about today and I am about tomorrow. I am there to dismantle poverty. It
:17:52. > :17:52.already tomorrow. Now, it's late - SNP
:17:53. > :17:55.love triangle late - But don't let your urge
:17:56. > :17:57.for no-strings independence with a tartan jihadist send
:17:58. > :18:00.you to bed, because waiting Britain's leading conspiracy
:18:01. > :18:05.theorist, author David Icke is here to reveal the dark
:18:06. > :18:09.truth about This Week. And if you believe we're
:18:10. > :18:11.a cunning plot to deceive On the Twit-Te-Woo, the Fleecebook,
:18:12. > :18:15.SnapNumpty, the Massager and Gordon Brown's Scottish Web
:18:16. > :18:22.Sphere... Now, with speculation
:18:23. > :18:24.mounting as to the identity of the next James Bond,
:18:25. > :18:27.a bookmaker was forced to suspend betting this week
:18:28. > :18:29.after a substantial amount was placed on the actor
:18:30. > :18:30.Tom Hiddleston. Exactly the same thing
:18:31. > :18:33.happened here on This Week, when Diane Abbott left the show
:18:34. > :18:35.and a huge wager was Michael, I hope you've not spent
:18:36. > :18:41.all your winnings yet. Here's Rawnsley, Andrew Rawnsley,
:18:42. > :18:47.licensed to thrill, with his political
:18:48. > :18:57.round-up of the week. Just the usual, trying
:18:58. > :19:26.to save the world from crazed megalomaniacs and their devilish
:19:27. > :19:30.schemes to achieve And can you ask Q to have a look
:19:31. > :19:37.in his cupboard of gadgets? I need some tranquilliser gas
:19:38. > :19:39.cunningly disguised Q, Rawnsley wants more toys
:19:40. > :19:52.to play with, again. David Cameron has refused to retract
:19:53. > :19:55.what he said about your He says they were stupid,
:19:56. > :19:59.they were divisive Number one, I'm not stupid, OK,
:20:00. > :20:07.I can tell you that right now. In terms of divisive,
:20:08. > :20:11.I don't think I'm divisive. I am a unifier, unlike our
:20:12. > :20:14.President now. When I made the statement six months
:20:15. > :20:17.ago, and there was a clamour only by the politicians, millions
:20:18. > :20:22.of people were calling in saying, Donald Trump, the Man
:20:23. > :20:32.With The Golden Rug. Ah, Miss Green, I barely recognised
:20:33. > :20:37.you with your clothes on. Usual formula, then,
:20:38. > :20:39.cheesy one-liners, miraculous Yes, this film does contain some
:20:40. > :20:47.Boris Johnson. This discussion is bedevilled
:20:48. > :20:51.by all sorts of artificial media twit storms and hysteria
:20:52. > :20:55.of one kind or another. There is a very good argument
:20:56. > :20:57.against the lack of Over the last 2000 years,
:20:58. > :21:02.people have made repeated attempts The EU is a very different project
:21:03. > :21:07.but it is profoundly anti-democratic and that's why you should
:21:08. > :21:11.vote Leave on June 23rd. Hold on a minute, Boris,
:21:12. > :21:13.you can't complain when people It was you who brought the Nazi
:21:14. > :21:19.dictator into the debate I don't really understand what Boris
:21:20. > :21:30.is up to, frankly. I know him, I like him,
:21:31. > :21:33.he makes me laugh. And yet yesterday, about Hitler,
:21:34. > :21:38.I find that deeply disturbing. I think the strain of the campaign
:21:39. > :21:41.is beginning to tell on him. The Tory civil war on Europe is now
:21:42. > :21:53.more vicious than the blade in Rosa Kleb's shoe,
:21:54. > :21:57.or the teeth on Jaws. Getting it under control would be
:21:58. > :22:01.beyond Her Majesty's top agent, The Prime Minister tried
:22:02. > :22:09.to distract his party by despatching the Queen down to Parliament to read
:22:10. > :22:11.out a legislative Northern powerhouse,
:22:12. > :22:18.Anti-Extremism Bill, surveillance legislation,
:22:19. > :22:22.prison reform. That cocktail of already familiar
:22:23. > :22:24.ingredients left a few shaken We will scrutinise carefully
:22:25. > :22:34.proposals to give prison It seems the policies of this
:22:35. > :22:41.Government have been to give greater That is, the consequences
:22:42. > :22:47.of overcrowding prisons and cutting one third of dedicated
:22:48. > :22:51.prison officer positions. We welcome the proposals
:22:52. > :22:55.to give greater time for education and reform
:22:56. > :22:59.and reduce reoffending rates. I may be losing, but you know
:23:00. > :23:03.diamonds are forever. But don't last quite as long
:23:04. > :23:07.as a speech by the Labour leader. David Cameron responded
:23:08. > :23:09.by suggesting that his rival's I have to say, Mr Speaker,
:23:10. > :23:15.I think there is more chance of the Labour Party calling it a day
:23:16. > :23:18.when he completes his And, Mr Speaker, I have been
:23:19. > :23:22.doing my researches, too. And it may come sooner
:23:23. > :23:25.than people think. He recently placed an advert
:23:26. > :23:28.for a job in his office and it said, "Fixed term contract for the period
:23:29. > :23:33.only that Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party,
:23:34. > :23:37.or until the 31st of December 2016, Tempting fate a bit
:23:38. > :23:45.there, Mr Cameron. If the Tory leader loses
:23:46. > :23:48.the referendum, he will be the one You do know that some women
:23:49. > :23:54.think all you 00 agents I am very sensitive
:23:55. > :24:01.to that, Miss Green. I have been on my gender awareness
:24:02. > :24:05.training. If you think the 00s
:24:06. > :24:07.are sexist dinosaurs, what about the henchmen of Ukip
:24:08. > :24:12.number one, Nigel Farage? Did you catch Neil Hamilton
:24:13. > :24:18.insulting female Welsh nationalists? These two ladies have just made
:24:19. > :24:20.themselves political And what a gruesome prospect
:24:21. > :24:30.that must be. Hmm, I wouldn't exactly
:24:31. > :24:35.describe him as "coalitious". I don't suppose there's much danger
:24:36. > :24:38.of the Green Party bidding for world domination
:24:39. > :24:41.in the foreseeable future. This week, Natalie Bennett,
:24:42. > :24:44.their leader, announced I went back to the proposals I put
:24:45. > :24:50.forward when I stood I said I wanted to grow the party,
:24:51. > :24:55.make us a truly national party, to win our place
:24:56. > :24:59.in the national debates. And I thought, I've
:25:00. > :25:03.achieved those things. Do you know what, Miranda,
:25:04. > :25:05.she has me converted. It's time to consider my carbon
:25:06. > :25:09.footprint, the exotic locations, Do you fancy a glass
:25:10. > :25:20.of carrot juice Special thanks to the wonderful team
:25:21. > :25:37.at Les Ambassadeurs Club in Mayfair. And here to cash in her chips,
:25:38. > :25:42.This Week's very own femme fatale, And the man many people are calling
:25:43. > :25:46."The New Nicola Sturgeon" - future SNP leader and possible
:25:47. > :26:07.First Minister of Scotland, Michael, as we sit here tonight, how
:26:08. > :26:13.would you categorise the standing of Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne in the
:26:14. > :26:18.parliamentary Conservative Party? Well, there was an MP today who was
:26:19. > :26:24.lamenting the divisive nature of the campaign as it's been conducted by
:26:25. > :26:28.number ten, and I think that is the crucial point. Andrew Rawnsley a
:26:29. > :26:32.moment ago was saying that Prime Minister will be in peril if he
:26:33. > :26:36.loses the referendum. I think he is in peril if he wins it. He has
:26:37. > :26:41.announced he isn't going to run for the general election. He is a very
:26:42. > :26:44.divisive leader. Some people would say, since we are not going to fight
:26:45. > :26:48.the next election with him, why would we wait for three years to
:26:49. > :26:53.change the leader? At the moment, he has the upper hand, he is the Prime
:26:54. > :26:57.Minister and he can bully people, but I think it is a short term
:26:58. > :27:00.policy and it potentially has its comeuppance. I don't know what the
:27:01. > :27:07.numbers are in the Parliamentary party but I think it is a reasonable
:27:08. > :27:12.bet that about half the party are Leave rather than Remain, and that
:27:13. > :27:16.is a lot of people to offend in one go. Because this referendum debate
:27:17. > :27:20.has been kind of dominated by Tory civil war, that is where the
:27:21. > :27:24.dynamics of the argument have overwhelmingly taken place, is this
:27:25. > :27:31.referendum grabbing the country as a whole yet? I don't think so. I don't
:27:32. > :27:35.hear people talking about the referendum, but I did do Question
:27:36. > :27:39.Time a few weeks ago, your warm up act, and it was interesting because
:27:40. > :27:43.the driver who took me there from the station told me that one of the
:27:44. > :27:49.things that was going to be invoked for Brexit was the imposition of
:27:50. > :27:53.strict bananas. -- going to make him vote. I said, you are journalistic
:27:54. > :28:01.gold. I haven't met anybody who still believes that! You don't think
:28:02. > :28:06.it is grabbing the nation yet? I don't get a sense that people are
:28:07. > :28:19.engaged by it. I think they are scumed by it. -- scunnered by the
:28:20. > :28:23.vacuous level of the debate. I think it has got very nasty. I noticed the
:28:24. > :28:28.Prime Minister saying he wouldn't debate with Boris because he didn't
:28:29. > :28:32.want it to turn into a Conservative psychodrama. They are trying to
:28:33. > :28:38.avoid blue on blue. That may be right, but he did call the
:28:39. > :28:45.referendum. Exactly. You could say that about the Germans, but they did
:28:46. > :28:52.start it. And I mean by this, the Prime Minister started it by calling
:28:53. > :28:56.the referendum. Absolutely, but also he has been trying to replay the
:28:57. > :29:04.general election, safety first strategy, fear of something. Just
:29:05. > :29:09.like the election. And an economic mood across the world, quite bleak
:29:10. > :29:16.at the moment. Why don't they call it how it is on the kind of things
:29:17. > :29:19.that Boris is saying? I listened to that excruciating interview with
:29:20. > :29:24.Chris Grayling yesterday morning when he was asked if he found it
:29:25. > :29:29.distasteful that Boris had made this comparison with Hitler and the
:29:30. > :29:34.Nazis. Instead of saying, yes, it was really off-putting, next, and
:29:35. > :29:39.move on, he had this curious verbal dance with John Humphreys. I think
:29:40. > :29:46.that puts voters off. You ought to try interviewing him... I don't
:29:47. > :29:50.agree that people are not thinking about it, having spent the last four
:29:51. > :29:56.or five months canvassing, not just for Police and Crime Commissioners,
:29:57. > :29:59.elections locally, but also asking the EU question. People know it is
:30:00. > :30:04.coming and they have to start thinking about it. My concern about
:30:05. > :30:10.this whole blue on blue row is not just bad this issue is bigger, far
:30:11. > :30:15.bigger than who end up leading the Tory party, it is that, unless a
:30:16. > :30:18.strong Labour case is heard by people, we will not get the Labour
:30:19. > :30:24.vote out, which is crucial for Remain. I think there is a good hope
:30:25. > :30:27.you will not get the Labour vote out. Can I have a go at the Boris
:30:28. > :30:36.point? The problem with the European Union
:30:37. > :30:40.is that it is an ideology, and they can be dangerous unless they are
:30:41. > :30:44.democratically restrained. There is no democratic process in the
:30:45. > :30:50.European Union and no plan for a democratic process. That is why this
:30:51. > :30:54.ideology is dangerous. Ask the Greek people, who by their millions have
:30:55. > :30:57.been put out of work, the Spanish who have been put out of work in
:30:58. > :31:02.their millions because the ideology dictated that all the countries had
:31:03. > :31:07.to be in the euro. The greatest example I saw in the United Kingdom
:31:08. > :31:14.was Michael Heseltine, who insisted on interest rates going from 10% up
:31:15. > :31:17.to 15% in September 1992, because the ideology dictated that we should
:31:18. > :31:23.remain in the exchange rate mechanism. It did not matter that
:31:24. > :31:31.mortgages would rise by 50% that day, because the eye geology
:31:32. > :31:37.dictated it. Where do the Nazis come in? I have not introduced them.
:31:38. > :31:43.Ideology unrestrained by democracy is dangerous. That is coherent and
:31:44. > :31:48.fair. It is not my take but it is coherent and fair. What every
:31:49. > :31:53.reasonable Person objects to is the theatrical and distasteful use of
:31:54. > :31:57.the Nazis. I do not want another TV programme dominated by it. I have
:31:58. > :32:01.done too many and I am bored with it. It seems to me that if you are
:32:02. > :32:07.right that the referendum is not grabbing the public mood in the way
:32:08. > :32:13.the Scottish referendum did, in an unprecedented way, the degree of the
:32:14. > :32:17.public participating, that is good news for the Leeds side, because the
:32:18. > :32:25.lower the turnout, the more likely they are to win. Leave. Absolutely.
:32:26. > :32:30.Some of the strange things they have started to say, they have started to
:32:31. > :32:34.raise this phantom second referendum. You wonder whether they
:32:35. > :32:38.are cynically trying to depress the turnout, because the fewer people
:32:39. > :32:43.that vote, the greater their chances. I don't think they are that
:32:44. > :32:47.clever. The one thing that is clear in the Leave campaign is that it
:32:48. > :32:52.stumbles from pillar to post. The remaining campaign is like a
:32:53. > :33:02.juggernaut, bringing in the IMF. What will the turnout be? Very low,
:33:03. > :33:07.I think. Old people who are anti-European will be motivated. Not
:33:08. > :33:15.anti-European, but anti-European Union. Fun anti-European, too. They
:33:16. > :33:21.will be motivated to turnout. The vote in Scotland will be higher than
:33:22. > :33:26.in the rest of the UK. That is good for your side. And for democracy in
:33:27. > :33:33.general. I think the turnout might be healthy in the end. I think
:33:34. > :33:38.safety first will win. No idea, but we are busting a gut to get young
:33:39. > :33:41.people registered to vote. Lots of students will have finished exams
:33:42. > :33:47.and be going home and that is a big focus for the Remain campaign. I
:33:48. > :33:50.don't think anybody has any idea which is why the opinion polls mean
:33:51. > :33:56.nothing. If you don't know the turnout, you don't know anything. I
:33:57. > :34:01.think it will be less than the general election, which was 66%. The
:34:02. > :34:09.75 referendum was lower than the two elections in 74. Anything below 60
:34:10. > :34:14.helps Leave, big-time. Anything above 60 helps Remain. Thank you.
:34:15. > :34:19.And whatever happened to Biggie, Tupac and Diane Abbott -
:34:20. > :34:23.or the far left's eulogising of Venezuela's socialist revolution?
:34:24. > :34:26.The world is full of mystery, intrigue and strange goings-on.
:34:27. > :34:28.For example, in last year's Labour leadership election,
:34:29. > :34:33.4.5% of Labour members and supporters voted for Liz Kendall
:34:34. > :34:36.- an unexplained phenomenon that still puzzles many of us
:34:37. > :34:43.And that's why we're putting conspiracy theories
:34:44. > :34:56.Is BoGo paranoid, or was the Prime Minister plotting to keep
:34:57. > :35:02.It is the biggest stitch-up since the Bayeux tapestry.
:35:03. > :35:04.A leaked letter this week suggests Call-Me-Dave was planning
:35:05. > :35:06.his campaign in secret, while publicly saying
:35:07. > :35:11.he was prepared to leave the EU, during his renegotiation.
:35:12. > :35:14.In a debate already dominated by hyperbole, both sides are now
:35:15. > :35:18.accusing each other of peddling conspiracy theories.
:35:19. > :35:21.So was the Chancellor simply trying to discredit his rivals by claiming
:35:22. > :35:27.The next thing we know, the Leave camp will be accusing us
:35:28. > :35:29.of faking the moon landings, kidnapping Shergar and
:35:30. > :35:36.covering up the existence of the Loch Ness Monster.
:35:37. > :35:39.JFK, the moon landings, Area 51 - some conspiracy theories
:35:40. > :35:42.are certainly out there, but who says a cover-up has
:35:43. > :35:48.Calls are now mounting for an enquiry into the 1984 Battle
:35:49. > :35:50.of Orgreave, while the victims of the Hillsborough tragedy
:35:51. > :35:57.were certainly conspired against by the powers that be.
:35:58. > :35:59.He's been called a lot more than a conspiracy
:36:00. > :36:06.You know, 2000 years ago, had a guy called Jesus sat
:36:07. > :36:10.here and said these same things, you would still be laughing.
:36:11. > :36:12.Though sold-out stadium lectures don't lie.
:36:13. > :36:15.David Icke knows how to grab your attention.
:36:16. > :36:18.But even if our lives are affected by invisible forces,
:36:19. > :36:22.the question remains, is the word "conspiracy"
:36:23. > :36:44.Would you describe yourself as a conspiracy theorist? Well, I look at
:36:45. > :36:49.what officialdom tells us is happening and I check it out. And if
:36:50. > :36:54.you can back that up with information, it is not a theory. And
:36:55. > :36:58.there are situations where you think, this could be this or that,
:36:59. > :37:03.that could be happening. That is a theory. But much of it is backed up
:37:04. > :37:08.by hard factual information. Interestingly, when you look at the
:37:09. > :37:14.dictionary definition of the very word "Conspiracy", we are drowning
:37:15. > :37:20.in them. One, the action of plotting or conspiring. That is happening all
:37:21. > :37:25.the time. Give me an example of a conspiracy. Ironically, we had
:37:26. > :37:28.George Osborne this week trying to ridicule conspiracies involving the
:37:29. > :37:33.EU by likening them to believing in the Loch Ness Monster. And in the
:37:34. > :37:39.same week, we have the Daily Mail exposing the Prime Minister for
:37:40. > :37:44.conspiring, in effect, with big business, to frighten the public
:37:45. > :37:51.into staying in the EU while publicly, to Parliament as well,
:37:52. > :37:57.saying that he would come out if the negotiations, renegotiations did not
:37:58. > :38:01.work. That is a conspiracy. Is it? Is it not politicians just doing the
:38:02. > :38:05.time-honoured thing of being less than honest? Well, if you are
:38:06. > :38:10.telling the public that you will have the option of coming out if you
:38:11. > :38:15.do not renegotiate with the EU the way you want, and you then don't do
:38:16. > :38:18.that, and at the same time you are telling the public in Parliament
:38:19. > :38:24.that, you are working with big business behind-the-scenes already
:38:25. > :38:28.to frighten the public into staying in. Even though the renegotiation is
:38:29. > :38:35.not finished. That is a conspiracy to mislead the public. What other
:38:36. > :38:42.conspiracies should we worry about? Well, what we are looking at all the
:38:43. > :38:50.time our conspiracy after conspiracy coming to light, while the idea and
:38:51. > :38:54.the very word conspiracy is demonised. For instance, we have a
:38:55. > :39:00.situation with this Chilcot Inquiry where we are going to see, indeed
:39:01. > :39:05.the information has a ready come out, that the Prime Minister of the
:39:06. > :39:15.time, Tony Blair and George Bush and the administrations, lied to us to
:39:16. > :39:21.justify an invasion of Iraq. And that is a conspiracy that has cost
:39:22. > :39:24.the lives of staggering numbers of people and created an ongoing
:39:25. > :39:30.catastrophe that is still going on. And let's not forget this, the very
:39:31. > :39:36.same people, not just the same agencies, the same people that told
:39:37. > :39:39.us there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq when they knew
:39:40. > :39:46.there were not, those very same people gave us the official story of
:39:47. > :39:55.9/11. So was 9/11 a conspiracy? Of course. Who was behind it? Well, in
:39:56. > :39:58.the time we have here, it is very difficult, but there is a network
:39:59. > :40:04.that works through government agencies, through organisations like
:40:05. > :40:08.the CIA, etc, to push an agenda on the world which is unfolding by the
:40:09. > :40:16.day. My books in the 1990s laid out what this agenda was, and those
:40:17. > :40:19.books are now being read on the television news in changes in
:40:20. > :40:25.society and laws coming in. This is the point. The mainstream media has
:40:26. > :40:31.accepted that those characters, those same characters lied about
:40:32. > :40:36.Iraq, but will not question in any way the same people's version of
:40:37. > :40:41.9/11. They are journalists. It's their job. Do you still think the
:40:42. > :40:49.royal family worship shifting lizards? Yes, I do. And you want us
:40:50. > :40:57.to believe 9/11 is a conspiracy. Other not undermine it? No. I can
:40:58. > :41:01.see that you might question 9/11 but if you think Buckingham Palace is
:41:02. > :41:07.inhabited by lizards... It is not that simple. There is a whole big
:41:08. > :41:11.back story before you get to what I am saying. If you deliver it in one
:41:12. > :41:16.line, the world is run by lizards, you meet on one level, that crazy,
:41:17. > :41:21.reflex action. But when you see the back story and the evidence to
:41:22. > :41:26.support it, ancient and modern, you see that throwaway line in a
:41:27. > :41:33.completely different context. Have you ever believed in a conspiracy
:41:34. > :41:39.theory? No, I haven't. But I think David Aaronovitch is interesting on
:41:40. > :41:43.this. He says that, paradoxically, we keep obsessing about conspiracies
:41:44. > :41:50.because somehow it is actually reassuring to think that there is
:41:51. > :41:56.some rate network of purpose, when in fact the world is chaotic and
:41:57. > :42:02.random and terrible things happen. And we cannot get our heads round
:42:03. > :42:05.it. As a journalist, I would love to believe in conspiracy theories
:42:06. > :42:09.because they are better stories, but enormous everything I have
:42:10. > :42:14.investigated, Kockott is a better explanation. People put a lot of
:42:15. > :42:20.work into conspiracy theories, but I think they are intellectually lazy.
:42:21. > :42:25.I think people just do not want to get their head around the way things
:42:26. > :42:29.actually work. That said, firstly, a lot of people are gullible about
:42:30. > :42:35.conspiracies. The police were gullible about the Downing Street
:42:36. > :42:39.paedophile ring. On the other hand, there clearly was a conspiracy over
:42:40. > :42:46.Hillsborough, and over 28 years people denied there was a conspiracy
:42:47. > :42:52.but there was. My last book is 1000 pages. Have you read any of my
:42:53. > :42:57.books? No. How do you know it is intellectually lazy? I wasn't
:42:58. > :43:03.talking about you, I meant members of the public who immediately latch
:43:04. > :43:08.onto a conspiracy as the most reasonable explanation of a simple
:43:09. > :43:13.situation. How do we know you are not a conspiracy to make us believe
:43:14. > :43:18.in conspiracies? People must believe what they like. It is simple. You
:43:19. > :43:24.look at information and make a decision on what you think of it.
:43:25. > :43:26.But if no one is investigating what governments and authorities are
:43:27. > :43:33.saying with a view to whether it is true or not, then what chance have
:43:34. > :43:38.people got to see information that they can then make a decision on?
:43:39. > :43:44.All that they are getting is the mainstream repeat, repeat, repeat
:43:45. > :43:47.version of everything. In my career, everything I know has been
:43:48. > :43:53.investigated and we go by the facts. What are you up to these days? I
:43:54. > :43:58.have a new book out and I am going on a world tour call over the world.
:43:59. > :44:01.That shows how many people are looking at this.
:44:02. > :44:05.But not for us, because it's Doncaster Power List night
:44:06. > :44:09.at Lou Lou's, and we're off to dance the night away with the real
:44:10. > :44:10.movers-and-shakers - and Ed Miliband.
:44:11. > :44:12.But we leave you tonight with an exclusive.
:44:13. > :44:14.Despite the fact that the Supreme Court has ruled today upholding
:44:15. > :44:17.the injunction that prevents us naming a celebrity couple involved
:44:18. > :44:19.in an illicit affair, we are prepared to challenge that
:44:20. > :44:22.decision and reveal the identity of the three people involved.
:44:23. > :44:25.We realise this might mean we go to jail, but viewers have a right
:44:26. > :44:27.to know what these sleazy degenerates have been getting up
:44:28. > :44:34.Nighty night, don't let the menage a trois bite.
:44:35. > :44:36.# One, two, three Come fly with me
:44:37. > :44:49.# One, two, three You, me and he
:44:50. > :45:34.# Would you like to threesome with me?#
:45:35. > :45:35.I think they'll take it this year. Yeah. Yeah.
:45:36. > :45:36.I think we're in for a real cracker.
:45:37. > :45:39.This could be the game of the season.