:00:00. > :00:10.Welcome to tonight's This Week's Match Of The Day.
:00:11. > :00:11.This evening, highlights from the much anticipated
:00:12. > :00:15.New York derby clash, Clinton verus Trump.
:00:16. > :00:18.US financial guru Alvin Hall commentates on a scrappy fight
:00:19. > :00:33.America's fascination with wealthy businessmen and its curious
:00:34. > :00:35.tolerance of bigotry and racism could mean back of the net for
:00:36. > :00:38.Trump. In Liverpool Jeremy Corbyn
:00:39. > :00:40.wins a decisive victory, The Mirror's Kevin Maguire
:00:41. > :00:49.was on the touchline. It was all meant to be about Labour
:00:50. > :00:51.Unity in Liverpool this week but the party still has a lot of different
:00:52. > :00:54.teams. Come on! And as England manager Big Sam
:00:55. > :00:57.Allardyce gets shown the red card, we ask undercover reporter
:00:58. > :01:11.Donal McIntryre, This is incoherent rambling
:01:12. > :01:13.disguised as a serious political chat.
:01:14. > :01:26.behind the attempted coup against President Erdogan in Turkey
:01:27. > :01:27.and the folks behind the attempted coup against
:01:28. > :01:37.I ask because both coups were so spectacularly botched
:01:38. > :01:39.that I'm suspicious they are one and the same.
:01:40. > :01:41.I mean, you don't come across incompetence
:01:42. > :01:46.Unless you're at Channel 4 and pay a shed load of dosh for Bake Off
:01:47. > :01:48.without first ensuring that the talent is coming with it.
:01:49. > :01:54.There are remarkable similarities between those who were rounded up
:01:55. > :01:56.in Istanbul and those who rushed to Liverpool Lime Street Station
:01:57. > :01:59.yesterday to skedaddle out of town before Jezza had even got
:02:00. > :02:05.Maybe they feared the Labour leader would do some
:02:06. > :02:08.Of course, with Labour knocking lumps out of itself,
:02:09. > :02:11.the sensible Tory strategy would be to stay schtum.
:02:12. > :02:15.But when it comes to Europe they just can't help themselves,
:02:16. > :02:18.and started arguing about how Theresa May disappeared
:02:19. > :02:25.But let me ask you another question, have you ever seen her reflection
:02:26. > :02:32.Speaking of those who no longer cast a political shadow over anything,
:02:33. > :02:42.by #fourpercent Liz "I'm putting a brave face on it" Kendall.
:02:43. > :02:49.And by #sadmanonatrain Michael Portillo.
:02:50. > :02:58.Your moment of the week? The speech by Tom Watson to the Labour Party
:02:59. > :03:02.Conference, in which he dared to praise the achievements of the Blair
:03:03. > :03:05.and Brown governments. I may not agree entirely with the list of
:03:06. > :03:10.achievements he set out, but speaking as a Tory, it felt in those
:03:11. > :03:15.days as though Labour was the natural party of government. I was
:03:16. > :03:19.part of a team trying to lay a glove on the Labour Party when it was in
:03:20. > :03:24.government and we could find no way while Blair was there, although more
:03:25. > :03:27.when Brown came in. It established this in Von Ruben lit. To reflect
:03:28. > :03:33.that it has gone from being virtually the natural party of
:03:34. > :03:39.government to its present state in such a short period of time.
:03:40. > :03:44.Politics is a wonderful thing. Tom Watson got a standing ovation in the
:03:45. > :03:47.middle of his speech and at the end. But then they cheered Jeremy Corbyn
:03:48. > :03:52.to the rafters, too, which leads me to think they were not the same
:03:53. > :03:57.people. I have questioned Liz on this outside the studio and she will
:03:58. > :04:03.tell you in due course. Your moment of the week? The presidential
:04:04. > :04:08.debate, watched by 84 million people. Just in America alone, and
:04:09. > :04:11.that does not include the millions who watched it on streaming
:04:12. > :04:18.services. So I think more than the Super Bowl. Hillary Clinton did a
:04:19. > :04:23.great job. She was relaxed, confident, feisty, which I always
:04:24. > :04:27.like to see in a woman politician. The big question is, will it change
:04:28. > :04:32.anybody's mind, and whether people who are undecided were even
:04:33. > :04:34.watching. I think it will still be a close race. That is a question we
:04:35. > :04:36.will investigate. Now empty promises, vast wealth
:04:37. > :04:38.and a nail biting finish. Sounds like the Radio Times listing
:04:39. > :04:40.for This Week. But of course, I refer to
:04:41. > :04:44.the American presidential election. Following The Donald vs
:04:45. > :04:46.the better half of Billary big debate earlier this week,
:04:47. > :04:49.the polls are now neck and neck. And the mud slinging continues,
:04:50. > :04:52.with Hill accusing Trump of living in his own reality and Trump
:04:53. > :04:54.shooting back that Hillary is But what has The Donald's popularity
:04:55. > :04:58.revealed about America? And is Hillary a better
:04:59. > :05:10.choice for president? Many here are puzzled that someone
:05:11. > :05:15.with no political experience and it'll policy can give an experienced
:05:16. > :05:17.politician such a run for her money. So what has Trump's challenge
:05:18. > :05:19.revealed about America? Here's Alvin Hall with
:05:20. > :05:44.his take of the week. You would have to have been hidden
:05:45. > :05:48.down a pitch and putt whole not to have noticed that Donald Trump seems
:05:49. > :05:55.on the verge of scoring a double eagle, the keys to the White House.
:05:56. > :05:59.And if he does, it will be the result of a combination of America's
:06:00. > :06:11.fascination with wealthy maverick businessmen, and racism that puts
:06:12. > :06:16.him there. Millions of Americans are seeing their jobs moved overseas,
:06:17. > :06:21.outsourced, effected by mergers, acquisitions and takeovers by
:06:22. > :06:25.private equity firms. Trump cashes in on their anger, their fear, their
:06:26. > :06:31.sense of powerlessness, by giving them someone to blame. And that
:06:32. > :06:40.someone is not the bankers or the businessmen. Understandably,
:06:41. > :06:48.middle-class Americans want their children to be successful. They may
:06:49. > :06:53.even become bankers one day. Trump, however, gives them convenient
:06:54. > :06:58.scapegoats for their fears. He blames Hispanics, especially
:06:59. > :07:02.Mexicans. He blames Muslims. And he blames blacks. He once these groups
:07:03. > :07:13.to feel the full force of the electoral five iron. Trump's slogan,
:07:14. > :07:19.make America a great again, is really coded language. No one ever
:07:20. > :07:23.thought there would be a black President of the United States of
:07:24. > :07:28.America, and in many ways his campaign is a reaction against that
:07:29. > :07:36.reality. Its language and its tone has unleashed the secret of America,
:07:37. > :07:41.the breadth and the depth of racism. I think it's time that someone calls
:07:42. > :07:49.four for what is coming down the fairway. Many Americans dislike
:07:50. > :07:53.Hillary because, although she is intelligent, she has been hugely
:07:54. > :07:57.ambitious. And they believe that she stayed in her marriage to Bill
:07:58. > :08:04.Clinton in a packed for fame and fortune. We need someone like
:08:05. > :08:08.Hillary, who will take the time to refine her drive in ways that will
:08:09. > :08:12.benefit the nation. It may look like Hillary is about to bogey, but here
:08:13. > :08:15.is hoping she is savvy and will maintain her lead.
:08:16. > :08:19.And from Plonk crazy golf in Dalston to our own collection of plonkers
:08:20. > :08:27.here in Westminster, Alvin Hall joins me now.
:08:28. > :08:35.We sent you there just so I could say that, and it worked! The people
:08:36. > :08:39.backing Trump, saying they will vote for him, they are certainly angry
:08:40. > :08:44.and disillusioned, and they are overwhelmingly white. But what is
:08:45. > :08:50.the evidence they are a cyst? Well, you listen to Trump's language, and
:08:51. > :08:56.how it is this old school language of racism. Who is to blame? Blacks
:08:57. > :09:00.in the inner-city, Mexicans coming and taking our jobs. That is
:09:01. > :09:08.old-fashioned Southern Democratic racism. You think the people voting
:09:09. > :09:12.for him are racist? I think the people voting for him have these
:09:13. > :09:17.feelings inside of them. The irony is that the election of Obama was
:09:18. > :09:26.supposed to introduce a post-racial America. Instead, it has infused --
:09:27. > :09:31.into juice a more racial America. A lot of working-class whites think
:09:32. > :09:37.they have had a raw deal. They see Mrs Clinton as the epitome of the
:09:38. > :09:42.establishment. To some extent, Trump is a protest vote against
:09:43. > :09:47.everything. It is a scream. Yes, and embracing an American concept very
:09:48. > :09:51.popular in business called disruption. You want to come up with
:09:52. > :09:57.a new technology to disrupt the way these old people do business. Trump
:09:58. > :10:02.in a way represents that disruption, especially to young white males in
:10:03. > :10:08.those fields. Why is Mrs Clinton is so unpopular even among women and
:10:09. > :10:15.even among left-leaning youngsters? First, when she came onto the scene
:10:16. > :10:18.as the first lady, she was overly aggressive and many people thought
:10:19. > :10:24.she wanted to make it a co-presidency. Many people did not
:10:25. > :10:28.like that. Then, when Bill had his indiscretion, she forgave him and
:10:29. > :10:32.stayed with him. And often went for the women who had been having
:10:33. > :10:38.affairs with him. Exactly. And people felt she should have left
:10:39. > :10:41.him. And now you have the issues surrounding her inappropriate
:10:42. > :10:46.behaviour, or her judgment, with the e-mails. These things add up to a
:10:47. > :10:52.singular doubt. We learned tonight the FBI will release more e-mails.
:10:53. > :10:56.Isn't the danger for Mrs Clinton, she is favourite to win at the
:10:57. > :11:01.moment, not by much, but she is favourite. Isn't the danger for her
:11:02. > :11:06.that Mr Trump galvanises his base, they come out because they are fired
:11:07. > :11:12.up perhaps for the reasons that you say, but she does not inspire hers,
:11:13. > :11:20.and he wins on differential turnout? Absolutely. He has a man from Fox
:11:21. > :11:24.News, the lady running his campaign now, all these people advising him.
:11:25. > :11:28.So he is gradually focusing himself. He only has to be focused for a
:11:29. > :11:33.little news conference to convince people he is reasonable. And that
:11:34. > :11:37.will make more and more people who are on the fence vote for him and
:11:38. > :11:40.bring out more of the voters. Michael, you spent a lot of time in
:11:41. > :11:47.America this summer on your trains and other things. Is the Trump base
:11:48. > :11:53.motivated by racism? You mean the people voting for him. I think some
:11:54. > :11:57.are and some are not. What struck me was people I knew who are
:11:58. > :12:01.Republicans who have convinced themselves that Trump has changed.
:12:02. > :12:06.That he has become presidential, has put aside the nonsense from before.
:12:07. > :12:13.He did not do that in the debate. Apart from his new voters, those who
:12:14. > :12:16.have not voted Republican before, the traditional Republican voter is
:12:17. > :12:21.now kidding himself and herself that Trump has become presidential. He
:12:22. > :12:24.clearly has not changed but they are convincing themselves of that. The
:12:25. > :12:29.other thing that struck me is that many Americans are deeply depressed.
:12:30. > :12:32.It is a horrible choice for them. Many people dislike Hillary Clinton
:12:33. > :12:38.enormously. It is hard to appreciate that in the UK. Neither one of them
:12:39. > :12:41.has a thing to say about ISIS, Syria, or race relations, except in
:12:42. > :12:50.the rather negative way that you have mentioned. You thought that Mrs
:12:51. > :12:55.Clinton got the better of Mr Trump and that was the consensus view
:12:56. > :12:59.according to the polls. But not by a huge amount. As we saw after the
:13:00. > :13:04.Democratic convention, the bounce in her polls can evaporate quickly. She
:13:05. > :13:09.has a struggle on her hands. She does. I think it would be a mistake
:13:10. > :13:14.to somehow write off all the people supporting Trump as idiots or
:13:15. > :13:20.racist. There may some, but I think there are two things going on. Yes,
:13:21. > :13:25.there are economic issues, people feeling left out and left behind,
:13:26. > :13:29.and you rightly raised that. But I think there is also a real sense of
:13:30. > :13:35.available in elite. We hear the talk here in the UK. A Liberal elite
:13:36. > :13:40.somehow sneering at the culture of people backing Trump. This has been
:13:41. > :13:45.building for years and years. It has now exploded, and people want to
:13:46. > :13:49.break the system. You are right, Trump gets his base out. The
:13:50. > :13:53.challenge for Hillary years, can she do the same. That is why I thought
:13:54. > :13:58.the debate was good for her, it will have given her people confidence.
:13:59. > :14:01.But she is not seen as the change candidate, which is amazing because
:14:02. > :14:09.she would be the first woman President. She would be pretty much
:14:10. > :14:14.continuity on policy. That's right, so she has to show why she is
:14:15. > :14:18.different. She has to inspire particularly women and young women
:14:19. > :14:22.to support her. There is what is a double judgment here. She was too
:14:23. > :14:27.ambitious. One minute she's criticised for smiling and then not.
:14:28. > :14:32.Men have double standards when it comes to women politicians and we
:14:33. > :14:36.need to recognise that. Is policy playing any role in this election?
:14:37. > :14:41.It is surprising how little it is playing, because of how emotional
:14:42. > :14:45.America is. Hillary clearly recognises that Donald Trump is
:14:46. > :14:50.appealing to this in motion in people. How do you take a situation
:14:51. > :14:56.where he is talking to the emotions of people? They are ignoring truth
:14:57. > :15:00.in fact. They want to feel good, to see someone who represents what they
:15:01. > :15:05.feel they want to happen in America. His slogan is, make America a great
:15:06. > :15:08.again. At the moment Russia is blowing people to pieces in Syria
:15:09. > :15:12.and the United States is doing nothing about it. Trump has nothing
:15:13. > :15:16.to say about how he is going to make America great again because he's in
:15:17. > :15:19.bed with Putin, and she has nothing to say about it because she espoused
:15:20. > :15:26.the policy which led to this disaster. The latest New York Times
:15:27. > :15:30.projections suggested the Republicans have a 59% chance of
:15:31. > :15:37.holding onto the Senate I think they will. They will certainly hold onto
:15:38. > :15:42.the house. There is a prospect that Mrs Clinton wins the White House but
:15:43. > :15:44.she is up against a Republican Congress and she is a one term
:15:45. > :15:51.President. Very much a possibility. She will
:15:52. > :15:55.encounter exactly the same resistance that Barack Obama felt
:15:56. > :15:59.when he came to office and they will not compromise with her. They will
:16:00. > :16:03.not do anything to make her life easier. It will just be a repeat of
:16:04. > :16:08.the last four years. A lot of people think that. I think at least if
:16:09. > :16:12.Donald Trump comes in this will not be the case. It will be a different
:16:13. > :16:15.story. We have no idea, both of you, if it is Mr Trump. If against the
:16:16. > :16:21.odds he is in the White House, we have no idea what he'll do on
:16:22. > :16:27.domestic or foreign policy? I do think that Michael is right to say
:16:28. > :16:33.here about the risks Putin poses for international security. His
:16:34. > :16:37.bro-mance with Putin undermining of Nato, also on the economy, his
:16:38. > :16:42.protectionist policies. The world economy is still fragile. Sure. He
:16:43. > :16:47.dragged Hillary Clinton with him on that. She described the
:16:48. > :16:52.transatlantic partnership as the gold standard of free trade deals.
:16:53. > :16:58.He forced her in the end to come out against it because in Pennsylvania,
:16:59. > :17:02.Michigan, Ohio, the states she has to win or he has to win to be
:17:03. > :17:07.president. It plays. You said against the odds. I understand
:17:08. > :17:11.Hillary is ahead in the polls at the moment. I'm not sure it will be
:17:12. > :17:15.against the odds. We are seeing a phenomenon here in Trump. It's
:17:16. > :17:17.similar to movements we have seen in Europe, including Brexit and
:17:18. > :17:22.pollsters under estimated those movements. I understand that. We
:17:23. > :17:26.have no idea what he's going to do on domestic or foreign... We have
:17:27. > :17:31.run out of time. Mrs Clinton at the moment is clearly the favourite. But
:17:32. > :17:36.we live in the age when the unexpected happens. Absolutely.
:17:37. > :17:41.Let's wait and see. Maybe I'll be your next door neighbour. You're
:17:42. > :17:42.always welcome. Thank you. Since I moved in the neighbourhood has gone
:17:43. > :17:46.down a bit. Thank you. But don't despair Owen,
:17:47. > :17:50.if you're twiddling your thumbs hitting the Blue Nun,
:17:51. > :17:53.there's a big job to fill Yes, big Sam's been stung
:17:54. > :17:58.and he was stung bad. Which is why waiting in the wings
:17:59. > :18:01.is undercover hack, Donal McIntyre, here to see if he can pull one over
:18:02. > :18:07.on our Liz and Michael. And if that's not enough,
:18:08. > :18:09.you can get hold of us on the intergalactic websphere,
:18:10. > :18:11.on face off and on tweetdeck. Now spare a thought
:18:12. > :18:19.for the Mirror's Kevin Maguire whose presence at the Labour conference
:18:20. > :18:22.this week turned him into an on-tap agony aunt for Labour moderates -
:18:23. > :18:45.with too much time on their hands. The night are drawing in and there
:18:46. > :18:48.is a nip in the air. Politicians and pundits are looking forward to the
:18:49. > :18:50.most important event of the autumn calendar. No, not the party
:18:51. > :19:11.conferences! October fest. Yep. It's that time of year when a
:19:12. > :19:15.political journalist can put on suede pants and eat a sauceage based
:19:16. > :19:18.meal on camera and be taken seriously. I will have another. It's
:19:19. > :19:22.about people coming together. That was the hope of Labour at its annual
:19:23. > :19:26.conference this week. The leader Jeremy Corbyn was re-elected with a
:19:27. > :19:35.large majority and all the talk was of unity and putting the band back
:19:36. > :19:42.together. Not that type of band! Buoyed by Jeremy Corbyn's increase
:19:43. > :19:47.mandate, his political ally and bandmate, Shadow Chancellor they
:19:48. > :19:56.served up socialist fair. When we win the next election, we will write
:19:57. > :20:05.into law a real living wage. APPLAUSE We'll charge a new living
:20:06. > :20:09.review body with the charge of setting it at a level of living a
:20:10. > :20:15.decent life. Independent forecasts suggest this will be over ?10 an
:20:16. > :20:19.hour. Keen to show that Labour's under new management, the "S" word
:20:20. > :20:25.was used more than be once - socialism. It's a society that's
:20:26. > :20:31.radically transformed. Radically fairer, more equal, more democratic.
:20:32. > :20:35.Yes, based upon a prosperous economy, that's economically and
:20:36. > :20:39.environmentally sustainable. Where that prosperity is shared by all.
:20:40. > :20:46.That's our vision to rebuild and transform Britain. In this party you
:20:47. > :20:51.no longer have to whisper its name. It's called socialism. They weren't
:20:52. > :20:57.all singing from the same menu when the Defence Secretary, Clive Lewis,
:20:58. > :21:04.exploded over Team Corbyn messing with his pro Trident renewal speech
:21:05. > :21:09.moments before he was due on stage. As you know, I'm sceptical about
:21:10. > :21:15.Trident renewal, as are many here in this room today.
:21:16. > :21:21.APPLAUSE But I'm clear that our party has a policy for Trident
:21:22. > :21:27.renewal. But I also want to be clear that our party's policy is also that
:21:28. > :21:32.we all share the ambition of a nuclear-free world. Despite all the
:21:33. > :21:38.plea ares for everybody in Labour to eat and drink together, you still
:21:39. > :21:43.heard thinly veiled threats to deselect MPs opposed to Corbyn. So I
:21:44. > :21:47.ask all of you not to be debilitated by the media and those within our
:21:48. > :21:54.own ranks who seek to undermine your confidence in the fight that lies
:21:55. > :22:03.ahead. So I say, I say, Conference, to the merchants of doom, in the
:22:04. > :22:08.words of shake peer's Henry VV. If you have no it stomach for this
:22:09. > :22:12.fight, depart the Corbyn won the battlefield. Big job but his rivals
:22:13. > :22:16.beat him over how Scotland and Wales will be represented on the party's
:22:17. > :22:21.governing National Executive Committee, so the leader isn't in
:22:22. > :22:25.full control. In a barnstorming speech, Corbyn's deputy, Tom Watson,
:22:26. > :22:30.called time on Labour trashing the Blair and Brown years. I don't know
:22:31. > :22:35.why we've been focussing on what was wrong with the Blair and Brown
:22:36. > :22:39.governments for the last six years. APPLAUSE With you trashing our
:22:40. > :22:48.record is not the way to enhance our brand. We won't win elections like
:22:49. > :22:53.that. We need to win elections. Nor did Watson miss a beat dealing with
:22:54. > :22:58.a heckler who shouted, "Chilcot" Jeremy, I don't think she got the
:22:59. > :22:59.unity memo! CHEERING AND
:23:00. > :23:10.APPLAUSE Corbyn's reinvigorated and enjoyed
:23:11. > :23:16.the Labour conference fanfare for his 21st century socialism. A Labour
:23:17. > :23:21.Government will not offer false promises on immigration, as the
:23:22. > :23:25.Tories have done. We will not sow division by fanning the flames of
:23:26. > :23:28.fear. We will tackle the real issues of immigration instead. Whatever the
:23:29. > :23:32.eventualal outcomes of Brexit negotiations and make the changes
:23:33. > :23:36.that are needed. Corbyn used the threat of an early general election
:23:37. > :23:44.to persuade rebel MPs to rejoin his Labour band. So today we put
:23:45. > :23:48.ourselves on notice. Labour is preparing for a general election in
:23:49. > :23:58.2017. APPLAUSE And, we hope and expect all
:23:59. > :24:02.our members to support our campaign. We will be ready for the challenge
:24:03. > :24:04.whenever it comes. CHEERING AND
:24:05. > :24:12.APPLAUSE I'm not expecting to see
:24:13. > :24:17.international Trade Secretary Liam Fox in a German beer keller any time
:24:18. > :24:24.soon after the speech he gave on Europe. Protectionism never helps
:24:25. > :24:29.anybody at all. As we move into our post-Brexit arena, we want it to be
:24:30. > :24:34.as free and as open as possible and don't just look at it from the UK
:24:35. > :24:40.perspective, the European Union has a massive surplus in goods with the
:24:41. > :24:45.UK. Who does it harm more if we end up in a new tariff environment? Does
:24:46. > :24:49.it harm more those who sell more to the UK or the UK? Labour's in a
:24:50. > :24:53.better position at the end of the week than it was at the beginning,
:24:54. > :24:57.but the party is still very divided with a long march ahead if it's to
:24:58. > :25:01.win a general election. Some of the rebels are returning to Corbyn's
:25:02. > :25:02.band and, I suppose, if you can't beat them, you might as well join
:25:03. > :25:11.them! And many thanks to London's
:25:12. > :25:13.Bierschenke Bierkeller and their resident band,
:25:14. > :25:28.The Bavarian Strollers, Liz, how big a mistake was it to
:25:29. > :25:32.launch this failed coup? You have left Mr Corbyn stronger than ever?
:25:33. > :25:39.Well, obviously it wasn't successful. Stating the obvious.
:25:40. > :25:42.Really? , so it was a mistake? People felt very, really concerned
:25:43. > :25:48.about what had happened over the referendum and that that was such a
:25:49. > :25:51.tragedy for the party and the country that that was the right time
:25:52. > :25:55.to do it, but... Even though you knew you were going to lose? Well, I
:25:56. > :26:00.think... You were never not going to lose? I agree with that, but I think
:26:01. > :26:04.Owen thought he had a chance of winning. That he could persuade
:26:05. > :26:08.people who had initially backed Jeremy that he wasn't cutting the
:26:09. > :26:13.mustard. That's not what the result... Do you accept that Mr
:26:14. > :26:19.Corbyn has now earned the right to lead Labour into the next election,
:26:20. > :26:25.even if it's 2020? Probably, yes. You know, he's got this mandate, but
:26:26. > :26:29.the big challenge for him and this I think is the challenge for any party
:26:30. > :26:33.conference, the party conference to go well. There was a lot of support
:26:34. > :26:37.in the hall. The real question is - can he convince the public, not just
:26:38. > :26:42.the people in the conference hall? You think he's got... He has a
:26:43. > :26:46.mountain to climb there. But he said that himself, he had a mountain to
:26:47. > :26:52.climb. In your view, is it true, as I was told by several of Mr Corbyn's
:26:53. > :26:57.supporters in Liverpool, other than Trident Labour is pretty united on
:26:58. > :27:00.policy? Owen supported many of the policies Jeremy put forward and said
:27:01. > :27:05.he would be, you know, a more effective leader apart from the
:27:06. > :27:09.issue on Trident. My view is, we lost the election in 2015, as in
:27:10. > :27:14.2010 because people didn't trust us on the economy. Yeah. If they think
:27:15. > :27:18.that we are simply going to tax and borrow more and more, that isn't
:27:19. > :27:22.going to address the problem. You are not happy at the prospect of
:27:23. > :27:26.borrowing billions more, a Mrs McDonnell is saying? I think that
:27:27. > :27:30.the public will rightly want to know what impact will that have? Where
:27:31. > :27:35.will you get the money from? What level of taxation do you want? This
:27:36. > :27:40.is the underlying problem we have as a party. People know we support
:27:41. > :27:44.investment in our public services and struck they don't trust us with
:27:45. > :27:47.our taxes and think we will harm business. That is what we have to
:27:48. > :27:50.deal with urgently because it's why we lost the last two elections and I
:27:51. > :27:54.think we've got to do far more to convince people. Can you hold all
:27:55. > :27:59.these Labour areas, particularly in the north, that voted Brexit, with
:28:00. > :28:03.no controls on immigration as your policy... This is the big question
:28:04. > :28:09.and debate we are having in the party now. There are different views
:28:10. > :28:15.about this. Many of my colleagues understandably deeply worried that
:28:16. > :28:20.their constituents voted out because of immigration predominantly. At the
:28:21. > :28:23.same time knowing if we are out of the single market that could put our
:28:24. > :28:27.manufacturing jobs at risk. That is the issue we are struggling with. My
:28:28. > :28:31.own view is, can you not deal with those two issues separately and that
:28:32. > :28:35.we should not give up on our membership of the single market. We
:28:36. > :28:40.had a warning from Nissan today on top of a warning from Toyota that
:28:41. > :28:46.the jobs our constituents rely on will be put at risk. If you are a
:28:47. > :28:50.member of the single market as opposed to having access, as a
:28:51. > :28:52.member you fall under the European Court of Justice. You are subject to
:28:53. > :28:58.free movement. That is what people voted against? I'm not so sure that
:28:59. > :29:07.other European countries aren't starting to look seriously at the
:29:08. > :29:10.issue of freedom of movement. Look, I note the Italian Prime Minister
:29:11. > :29:14.said if you want to be in the single market you have to have free
:29:15. > :29:18.movement. Under these headlines many politicians are deeply concerned
:29:19. > :29:21.about the impact of... Elections in Germany and France? I would not rule
:29:22. > :29:26.out the possibility of making progress there. Michael, if you were
:29:27. > :29:31.a Labour centrist and looked at the Labour Party now, what would you do?
:29:32. > :29:34.Well, I'm not in the that position, so I speak without authority. I
:29:35. > :29:39.think I would try and form a new party. I think between now and the
:29:40. > :29:44.next election Jeremy Corbyn will try and wipe out all moderates who are
:29:45. > :29:48.Labour MPs. Get them deselected. So these people have no future beyond
:29:49. > :29:54.the next four years. In the next four years they have a lot of power.
:29:55. > :29:57.They are 80% of the Labour Party. They are members of parliament at
:29:58. > :30:00.the moment. They have a public platform and they have authority.
:30:01. > :30:05.What they don't have is the name of the Labour Party. They don't have
:30:06. > :30:09.access to the union funds they might have access to donor's funds. You
:30:10. > :30:14.know, in the light of the failed coup I think that's what they have
:30:15. > :30:16.to do. Otherwise, you know, it's over at least for a generation
:30:17. > :30:20.because these people won't be in parliament. I don't know how you
:30:21. > :30:25.would get it back. To go back to the first question you asked Liz about
:30:26. > :30:30.the failed coup. What has happened twice is that the moderates have
:30:31. > :30:34.under estimated Jeremy Corbyn. Corbyn. First they nominated him.
:30:35. > :30:39.You thought there would be a coup and he would be unnerved and gave
:30:40. > :30:44.up, but he didn't. No I think people thought that enough of our members
:30:45. > :30:48.were angry about what had happened over Brexit and thought that he
:30:49. > :30:52.hadn't provided the leadership. That hasn't happened. Let me say this on
:30:53. > :30:56.the idea there would be a separate party, which I don't agrow with.
:30:57. > :31:00.First, you don't give up and quit on something just because it's tough.
:31:01. > :31:03.You don't give up on a proud history of a party just because of what has
:31:04. > :31:17.happened over the last couple of years. Secondly, Labour has always
:31:18. > :31:19.had this challenge of holding our more traditional socially small
:31:20. > :31:23.conservative constituents and liberal Metropolitan cities. A that
:31:24. > :31:27.hases always been tough. We can only win by keeping it together. There
:31:28. > :31:32.won't be a split. I hear no talk of a split. It wouldn't be right
:31:33. > :31:36.electorally, but also we think - why should we quit our party? The civil
:31:37. > :31:40.war could go on. There is a battle for control of the NEC, the
:31:41. > :31:45.membership continues to change. Not that is helpful to you. The boundary
:31:46. > :31:49.changes will give huge Combe for deselection of sitting MPs should
:31:50. > :32:04.that be the mood of the constituency. Mr Corbyn said the new
:32:05. > :32:12.people he would put into the Shia he Shadow Cabinet would be his people.
:32:13. > :32:17.It's notture party. -- not your party. The majority had supported...
:32:18. > :32:20.They are a declining percentage, they are yesterday. The new members
:32:21. > :32:25.are tomorrow? It still remains our party. To be honest, I'm less
:32:26. > :32:31.concerned with talk about what is happening on the NEC or who are the
:32:32. > :32:36.heroes or not I'm concerned about talking to the public. We have spent
:32:37. > :32:40.a year talking to ourselves. We need to convince the public on our
:32:41. > :32:43.economy and have something to say on Brexit. Should Theresa May call an
:32:44. > :32:53.election? No, I think she would think it
:32:54. > :32:58.flashy to do it, opportunistic. It is the sort of politics she
:32:59. > :33:02.despises. She is the anti-Cameron Prime Minister. So only if there
:33:03. > :33:05.were an overwhelming public sentiment that she was in an
:33:06. > :33:09.illegitimate position because she had not been elected, and there is
:33:10. > :33:12.no sense of that at the moment. But to opportunistically go for an
:33:13. > :33:15.election would be against her character. That is my sense, too. We
:33:16. > :33:18.shall see. Now, Michael only agreed
:33:19. > :33:20.to sashay his way back onto our sofa this week after one of our producers
:33:21. > :33:23.promised to serve him Liz told him it's rage among
:33:24. > :33:27.ex-footballers and we all know choo choo's desperate
:33:28. > :33:29.to develop a common touch. Hidden camera footage also
:33:30. > :33:31.shows him accepting a free Chipping Sodbury to Clapham Common
:33:32. > :33:37.annual season ticket. Yes, it's not cheap
:33:38. > :33:39.to bribe our Michael. That's why we've put 'stings'
:33:40. > :34:03.in this week's Spotlight. It was an error in judgment on my
:34:04. > :34:07.behalf and I paid the consequences. Error of judgment, or contempt for
:34:08. > :34:11.the rules? Whatever your view, Sam Allardyce lost the England job this
:34:12. > :34:17.week after being the subject of a Telegraph sting into alleged
:34:18. > :34:22.corruption in football. I think the whole football world will be
:34:23. > :34:27.laughing at England. It's a pretty embarrassing situation. It isn't the
:34:28. > :34:33.first time the FA has been left red-faced by hacks in disguise. Sven
:34:34. > :34:36.Goran Eriksson, one of big Sam's predecessors was stung by the man
:34:37. > :34:42.people call the fake sheikh. But even the so-called King of the sting
:34:43. > :34:49.is in court this week, accused of tampering with evidence in a case
:34:50. > :34:53.against a former pop star. Labour Party boy Keith Vaz, who got badly
:34:54. > :34:57.stung over the summer, seemed to keep a relatively low profile at
:34:58. > :35:04.conference this week. He even cancelled his diversity night, which
:35:05. > :35:12.he had run for almost two decades. Despite doing nothing illegal, his
:35:13. > :35:14.confidence seemed shocked. Donal MacIntyre, seasoned investigative
:35:15. > :35:19.journalist and criminologist knows a thing or two about going undercover,
:35:20. > :35:26.so are all the sting is justified, or are they just prurient invasions
:35:27. > :35:32.of privacy? Welcome to the programme. Do you
:35:33. > :35:37.need good grounds for suspicion before it is right to mount a sting?
:35:38. > :35:41.I think so. I think it depends on the ground rules and who you are
:35:42. > :35:48.doing it for. For broadcasters the ground rules are strict. You can't
:35:49. > :35:53.go on a fishing expedition. I remember we went into one care home
:35:54. > :35:58.in advance of a care home investigation. Somebody went in
:35:59. > :36:02.undercover, a colleague of mine, three weeks, reported the concerns,
:36:03. > :36:08.said they were valid, and only then did I go undercover with a camera.
:36:09. > :36:13.So there are various stages. The essence, for any of our lives, that
:36:14. > :36:20.invasion of privacy is a huge hurdle to overcome. The question is, does
:36:21. > :36:24.the evidence justified the means? You have two reach the threshold. It
:36:25. > :36:32.has to be that invasion of privacy, it has to be overweight by
:36:33. > :36:35.substantial public interest. So if you suspect somebody is corrupt and
:36:36. > :36:40.you have good grounds for thinking that is the case, then you can set
:36:41. > :36:48.up a sting, but it would be wrong to take cash and go flashing around to
:36:49. > :36:54.see who takes it? That would be entrapment, and the phrase was an
:36:55. > :36:58.easy and lazy defence, and a lot of people jump onto it in the football
:36:59. > :37:03.world. People say it was entrapment. I think it is all about the ground
:37:04. > :37:08.rules. The only people who know the ground rules are in fact the
:37:09. > :37:12.Telegraph. But you have no doubt that with the expert PR machine
:37:13. > :37:17.surrounding everybody in football, an expert litigators and lawyers who
:37:18. > :37:20.will have worked for broadcasters defending broadcasters against those
:37:21. > :37:27.trying to sue them and also working on behalf of the FA, for example,
:37:28. > :37:31.and on behalf of Sam Allardyce. They know the rules and they know they
:37:32. > :37:34.will have gone through substantively cool hoops before this was
:37:35. > :37:40.published. So when you embark on this sort of operation, you have
:37:41. > :37:46.given the target and your suspicions and maybe even some evidence. You
:37:47. > :37:51.have a reasonable idea that the sting will work? You never quite
:37:52. > :38:01.know. But the ground rules you put in place, lots of plans to ensure it
:38:02. > :38:07.would work. It is a long sting. Some of them may take months, six months.
:38:08. > :38:11.I was undercover in Nottingham 20 years ago and it was nine months
:38:12. > :38:18.undercover for world in action before I mentioned drugs to my
:38:19. > :38:21.target. I had been in the field for so long that they knew an undercover
:38:22. > :38:26.officer would have blown it and asked questions in advance of that.
:38:27. > :38:30.So we outstayed their welcome of even an undercover officer. In this
:38:31. > :38:33.case, it is quite clear. The sting is most effective when it takes
:38:34. > :38:40.place abroad, because naturally when you are abroad, first of all you are
:38:41. > :38:44.geographically removed from the UK island where you are under scrutiny
:38:45. > :38:49.every day as football managers and players would expect. Also, on
:38:50. > :38:55.holiday, you let your guard down. If you add some alcohol and sunshine,
:38:56. > :39:03.it feels a bit loose. He felt he was in a safe place. And of course he
:39:04. > :39:07.wasn't. Good journalism, Michael? Obviously, I am worried because a
:39:08. > :39:11.sting effectively involves lying, or tending to be somebody in something
:39:12. > :39:17.that you are not. But with the sort of safeguards described, and if you
:39:18. > :39:19.are pursuing corruption and certainly crime, the discovery of
:39:20. > :39:26.corruption and crime are in the public interest. I still have many
:39:27. > :39:32.doubts about things which make the public being in the public interest.
:39:33. > :39:35.The people who most complain, when we did care home investigations and
:39:36. > :39:42.found abuse of the elderly, the people who were most concerned about
:39:43. > :39:49.the invasion of privacy of those who were actually hurt and injured were
:39:50. > :39:53.the relatives of those, because they realised, OK, Johnny here has been
:39:54. > :39:59.hurt. He is going to have to come back home now. So it is complex. The
:40:00. > :40:05.key thing is invasion of privacy is a huge hurdle. You need a big public
:40:06. > :40:11.interest to justify it. Are you comfortable with this kind of
:40:12. > :40:14.journalism? I am a strong supporter of our free press and what you have
:40:15. > :40:20.described for broadcasters, there are a lot of rules in place. I think
:40:21. > :40:24.sometimes, as Michael says, you are not 100% convinced it is for
:40:25. > :40:28.anything corrupt or illegal. It is just to reveal something about a
:40:29. > :40:34.person's private life that I have no interest in whatsoever. But some of
:40:35. > :40:38.the most important stories, you are talking about care homes, and the
:40:39. > :40:43.BBC did some work looking into the care of people with learning
:40:44. > :40:47.difficulties, that absolutely blew open a national scandal which I
:40:48. > :40:51.think still has not been addressed, or people being put away in
:40:52. > :40:54.long-stay homes. You are right that sometimes families will get worried,
:40:55. > :40:59.feeling guilty that they have put the person there. But actually that
:41:00. > :41:07.is in the public interest. People are being harmed and it is taxpayers
:41:08. > :41:10.money being spent. If we expose some wrongdoing, clearly in Sam
:41:11. > :41:16.Allardyce's case, his face was shown. In a care home, there is a
:41:17. > :41:21.level of judgment we use. Do we show the face? We do it according to the
:41:22. > :41:24.level of responsibility. I can't read you do over other people's
:41:25. > :41:30.rules, but the broadcasters I have worked with, ITV and BBC, not only
:41:31. > :41:37.are they tight. Not saying that I have not made mistakes, but there
:41:38. > :41:44.are pretty tight safety nets. But things go wrong? Yes. But they never
:41:45. > :41:46.see the light of day. I would imagine 30% of undercover
:41:47. > :41:52.investigations might fall by the wayside because they do not get the
:41:53. > :41:56.evidence sufficient for broadcast. There may be a level of personal
:41:57. > :42:02.risk for the journalist involved. That is not always the case but
:42:03. > :42:06.sometimes there is. Sometimes we overplay the risks to undercover
:42:07. > :42:10.journalists. But you have done some pretty risky things to get the
:42:11. > :42:14.story. Very good to see you. Thank you for being with us.
:42:15. > :42:16.That's your lot for tonight folks, but not for us
:42:17. > :42:18.because its renationalise the railways night at Lou Lous
:42:19. > :42:23.Although, even he's not quite sure how anyone will pay for it or,
:42:24. > :42:38.But there will be British Rail sandwiches on the menu. Those ones
:42:39. > :42:40.that curl up at the edges. Nighty night, don't let
:42:41. > :43:11.Jeremy Corbyn bite. # Though Coward 's flinch and
:43:12. > :43:14.traitors fear # We'll keep the red flag flying
:43:15. > :43:20.# # I believe that I'm on the right
:43:21. > :43:32.track # Yes, I do
:43:33. > :43:34.# Oh, baby # I'm on the right track.