:00:12. > :00:15.Tonight on This Week, a new dynasty is in town, the May dynasty.
:00:16. > :00:18.A lust for power, for glamour, for kitten heels.
:00:19. > :00:22.Button designer Wayne Hemingway thinks this leading
:00:23. > :00:28.I've never voted Conservative and I'm pretty sure I never will.
:00:29. > :00:31.But Theresa May's got a new collection.
:00:32. > :00:38.Never one to miss a good melodrama or wear a shoulder pad,
:00:39. > :00:41.the BBC's John Pienaar was hoping for a week
:00:42. > :00:46.There's a new set of shoulder pads at the top of the Tory party.
:00:47. > :00:51.Stay tuned for our omnibus edition of the grandest, richest,
:00:52. > :01:03.And after the conference when you couldn't make the bad jokes up,
:01:04. > :01:09.George the Poet puts the power of speech in the spotlight.
:01:10. > :01:15.What would national poetry day be without Blue None? !
:01:16. > :01:18.Yes, tonight, love, lust, drama, intrigue,
:01:19. > :01:30.And more bling than Theresa May's shoe cupboard.
:01:31. > :01:39.What do you get if you combine the dirigiste economics
:01:40. > :01:43.of Ed Miliband and the social prejudices of the Daily Mail?
:01:44. > :01:45.Yes, I know, it's difficult but think about it.
:01:46. > :01:54.One part state intervention to put evil capitalists in their place.
:01:55. > :01:57.One part putting yourself at the head of a crusade
:01:58. > :01:59.in the interests of "ordinary working families".
:02:00. > :02:05.And, just to add spice to the heady brew, one part gratuitous pop
:02:06. > :02:14.Anyway I think we can all get behind our new Prime Minister's
:02:15. > :02:17.meritocratic mantra that it doesn't matter what your background
:02:18. > :02:19.or where you come from, it should be unlimited
:02:20. > :02:24.Unless, of course, you're an immigrant.
:02:25. > :02:27.In which case your employer will be flushed out and probably named
:02:28. > :02:32.and shamed for employing too many of you.
:02:33. > :02:35.But it's not expected you'll have to wear an "I'm
:02:36. > :02:41.All music to the ears of Ukip's leader.
:02:42. > :02:47.Because these days Ukip leaders don't last longer than your average
:02:48. > :02:52.Though if you operate on the basis that no matter who else claims
:02:53. > :02:54.the crown, the leader is always Nigel Farage then you'll quickly
:02:55. > :02:56.discover that's a pretty reliable default position.
:02:57. > :02:59.Speaking of crawlers, I'm joined on the sofa tonight
:03:00. > :03:02.by two media tarts who'll do and say anything to keep in the limelight.
:03:03. > :03:05.Think of them as the Kim Kardashian and Kayne West of late
:03:06. > :03:09.I speak of course of #fourpercent Liz Kendall and Michael
:03:10. > :03:22.Michael, your moment of the week? The physical altercation between the
:03:23. > :03:27.Ukip MEPs today. Not because of the event itself but this year, so many
:03:28. > :03:34.things have happened that my jaw has dropped. Some have been tragic, like
:03:35. > :03:37.the murder of Jo Cox, some have been bizarre like Boris Johnson failing
:03:38. > :03:41.to run for the Conservative Leadership and becoming Foreign
:03:42. > :03:46.Secretary, the fall from grace of David Cameron and George Osborne,
:03:47. > :03:54.the emergence of Donald Trump in the United States, Andrea Leadsom being
:03:55. > :03:59.a candidate for the Conservative Prime Minister. These have all come
:04:00. > :04:06.out of left field. The unexpected tends to happen. Liz? My moment is
:04:07. > :04:10.America suspending talks with Russia over Syria because of Assad and the
:04:11. > :04:16.Kremlin's intensifying bombing of Aleppo. My real concern is with
:04:17. > :04:20.America focussed on the presidential election and Britain and Europe
:04:21. > :04:25.focussed on Brexit, we are not providing the strong leadership that
:04:26. > :04:26.we need to protect civilians and hold Russia to account and that has
:04:27. > :04:32.got to change. The liberal metropolitan elite
:04:33. > :04:34.likes to sneer that late night TV is a graveyard
:04:35. > :04:37.for political has-beens. But what do they know,
:04:38. > :04:42.now that one of our number has made it to the very pinnacle
:04:43. > :04:44.of political life? Yes, Diane Abbott, who ran
:04:45. > :04:48.a very successful Thursday night politics show -
:04:49. > :04:53.at least that's what she told the Nigerian Guardian this summer -
:04:54. > :04:56.has just been made Shadow Home Secretary by her old
:04:57. > :04:59.motorbike mucker, Jezza. I understand that tonight she's
:05:00. > :05:04.given a second interview to the Nigerian Guardian,
:05:05. > :05:06.which is now under the impression she's really
:05:07. > :05:08.Leader of the Opposition. Is this the first and dramatic
:05:09. > :05:11.illustration of Theresa May's enthusiasm for social
:05:12. > :05:14.mobility in action? Is Diane the new poster girl for
:05:15. > :05:18.a brave new world in which there's Or do we all have to tour
:05:19. > :05:22.East Germany on the back Here's designer Wayne Hemmingway
:05:23. > :05:46.with his take of the week. # Come on, baby, let
:05:47. > :05:49.the good times roll # Come on, baby, let
:05:50. > :05:51.me thrill your soul.# I've never voted Conservative
:05:52. > :05:54.and can't imagine ever doing so but Theresa May has given me a little
:05:55. > :05:57.bit of hope this week. Is she the first
:05:58. > :06:00.Conservative Prime Minister to fully understand the inequalities
:06:01. > :06:02.haunting Britain, and can she refashion her party to do
:06:03. > :06:07.something about it? But her words are cut
:06:08. > :06:10.a different cloth from her often repellent party and that's why it
:06:11. > :06:14.But we need more than a bit of darning.
:06:15. > :06:17.Growing up in the 60s and 70s in a working-class
:06:18. > :06:19.family, we never had money but we have belief,
:06:20. > :06:22.belief that with a bit of elbow grease we could go on and
:06:23. > :06:24.do better than the people who brought us up.
:06:25. > :06:27.As teenagers, me and my future wife left our home towns
:06:28. > :06:29.of Blackburn and Burnley for the big city.
:06:30. > :06:31.We emptied our belongings onto Camden market.
:06:32. > :06:36.We had no business experience, no assets, no Bank of Mum and Dad.
:06:37. > :06:39.And then we opened shops and as long as we paid our rent on time
:06:40. > :06:45.But those days are long gone, lost to bank guarantees
:06:46. > :07:11.and inherited wealth and spiralling rents.
:07:12. > :07:14.For the first time, people in their 20s and 30s
:07:15. > :07:16.are worse off than their parents, and a frightening nihilism is
:07:17. > :07:21.Brexit is a reflection of this but at least May
:07:22. > :07:28.May's proposed redesign of the party is promising.
:07:29. > :07:31.Ever the optimist, I am loath to believe this
:07:32. > :07:34.is a cynical move where she just wants to earn loads of money
:07:35. > :07:40.Surely at her age now, she wants to leave a legacy.
:07:41. > :07:43.But the question remains, does she have the practical solutions to
:07:44. > :07:49.Let's hope the Conservative Party's new designs are
:07:50. > :07:52.not the emperor's new clothes and fit the young people and those left
:07:53. > :07:59.behind who so desperately need a helping hand.
:08:00. > :08:03.And from Rokit Vintage store in Brick Lane to our own outdated
:08:04. > :08:09.walk-in wardrobe here on This Week, Wayne Hemingway joins me now.
:08:10. > :08:16.Welcome. The rhetoric is good. What makes you think she could turn it
:08:17. > :08:22.into anything approaching reality? I'm not sure she can. But if she is
:08:23. > :08:29.saying - the thing that surprises me about all of this - you understand
:08:30. > :08:32.when a 40-odd-year-old politician says this because they are gathering
:08:33. > :08:38.support. I'm 5 myself and I know there is a time in your life when
:08:39. > :08:42.you start to forget about your own self-ambition -- 55 myself. You
:08:43. > :08:48.think, you are supposed to leave the world a better place. She's 60 and
:08:49. > :08:52.I've got a feeling - also from her background, she's from a background
:08:53. > :08:57.that should have proper morals - her father was a clergyman. I think
:08:58. > :09:01.maybe she's seen the light but then again you think, why is she in the
:09:02. > :09:04.Tory party in the first place if she's thinking these things. But if
:09:05. > :09:09.her words come to pass, maybe there won't be a Tory party anyway. I find
:09:10. > :09:13.it all a bit... You are willing to give her a chance though? We should
:09:14. > :09:18.give everyone a chance. To deliver? We have got to hold her to account
:09:19. > :09:23.now. We can't let another Prime Minister... The concept of the big
:09:24. > :09:26.society was good. The idea of people getting together and communities and
:09:27. > :09:30.doing things for themselves and being helped a little bit by
:09:31. > :09:34.Government to do that. But that was all kicked into touch. We can't
:09:35. > :09:39.afford another Prime Minister to do that. But she set a very high bar
:09:40. > :09:44.for herself for clear improvement in the lives of what she calls
:09:45. > :09:48."ordinary working class people". How do we judge that? How do we judge
:09:49. > :09:53.progress? I think she was right to say that the big challenge we face
:09:54. > :09:57.as a country and the underlying cause of Brexit is the economy feels
:09:58. > :10:03.like it's only working for a few at the top and not most people. But I
:10:04. > :10:08.don't actually think she is a Prime Minister or this is a Government of
:10:09. > :10:13.the centre ground that wants to unite people. It wouldn't do grammar
:10:14. > :10:18.schools then would it? Exactly. I've heard this week before her speech,
:10:19. > :10:22.you know, some of the most divisive and right-wing policies I've heard
:10:23. > :10:28.if my lifetime, not just on grammar schools but on immigration too. I
:10:29. > :10:33.don't think that you get that kind of one-nation unifying politics by
:10:34. > :10:36.what I see actually as quite strong right-wing nationalism. We had a
:10:37. > :10:40.very unhappy time at our business this week. We employ overseas
:10:41. > :10:44.designers and we are a better company for it, way better. It means
:10:45. > :10:51.that when we export design we understand export markets. That's
:10:52. > :10:56.one obvious thing about it. I mean, Labour may say that she's not in the
:10:57. > :11:00.centre, but the fact is that she has straddled her tanks, not just in the
:11:01. > :11:04.centre. She's on the centre-left? If you read her speech, there are all
:11:05. > :11:09.sorts of things that she's... Again the rhetoric policy is another
:11:10. > :11:14.matter, but on the rhetoric, she moves on to a lot of what she is
:11:15. > :11:22.saying used to be said by Ed Miliband. She's on the centre and
:11:23. > :11:25.the left and that is straddling. Liz said something about left-wing
:11:26. > :11:33.nationalists. People who voted in the north of England and Essex and
:11:34. > :11:39.East Anglia and so on are left-wing nationalists and I'm sure show knows
:11:40. > :11:42.that. She's listening to people and talking a language that those people
:11:43. > :11:46.talk amongst themselves. Jeremy Corbyn's taking the opportunity to
:11:47. > :11:50.say he's not going to do anything about immigration if he becomes the
:11:51. > :11:52.Prime Minister of this country so he's giving an amazing opportunity
:11:53. > :12:00.to the Prime Minister, to Theresa May, to talk about these subjects.
:12:01. > :12:05.What should she do? We don't know what she's going to do to improve
:12:06. > :12:08.social mobility? She could shift the tax burden back the other way
:12:09. > :12:14.because the tax burden has shifted towards the poor. She could start
:12:15. > :12:17.to, is it ?13 billion of cuts still to go into Public Services, she
:12:18. > :12:21.could stop that. She talked about austerity. They have talked about
:12:22. > :12:25.austerity not working. Are they now going to end those ?13 billion of
:12:26. > :12:29.cuts that are decimating Public Services? She could do that at the
:12:30. > :12:36.flick of her finger. Do you think she is? She said or intimated that
:12:37. > :12:40.she would, so we've all got to hold her to account now.
:12:41. > :12:44.Something tells me that the way things have been going the last
:12:45. > :12:49.couple of years, that it won't happen, no, and we'll all just
:12:50. > :12:53.forget about it. But I don't quite know where Wayne has been. Year
:12:54. > :12:57.after year under the coalition, under the Conservatives, the
:12:58. > :13:02.threshold at which people begin to pay income tax has been pushed
:13:03. > :13:08.up-and-up. The idea that the poor are paying more tax is wrong. That's
:13:09. > :13:12.not happening. Happening The challenge for Theresa May, what she
:13:13. > :13:16.wanted to do this week was deal with Brexit first then go on to how she
:13:17. > :13:19.wanted the change the economy and society and the truth is, you cannot
:13:20. > :13:25.separate the two. If you want the economy to work for everyone, the
:13:26. > :13:28.economy's actually got to work. I don't think that immigration should
:13:29. > :13:33.be driving your economic policy which is what we heard this week.
:13:34. > :13:40.That is not going to deliver for the majority of people in this country.
:13:41. > :13:44.Wayne touched on housing. The Government has intimated it's going
:13:45. > :13:48.to put an extra ?2 billion into housing. Personally, I would go
:13:49. > :13:52.further and start building council houses again. Why - because you have
:13:53. > :13:55.got to increase the supply of housing and the most efficient way
:13:56. > :14:00.of doing that is to build houses in the public sector. One day they
:14:01. > :14:03.would pass into the private sector because they would be sold to
:14:04. > :14:08.tenants but I think that's something she may do. Wayne was talking about
:14:09. > :14:11.how people are poorer now than in previous generations and can't get
:14:12. > :14:17.on the housing ladder. That is the most urgent thing. It was completely
:14:18. > :14:20.neglected by Osborne and Cameron. And this's something that can be
:14:21. > :14:26.done. The other thing that can be done, you say the tax burden, we
:14:27. > :14:31.could shift that. I'm willing to pay more tax, you know.
:14:32. > :14:38.The top rate of tax at the moment is higher than it was in all the years
:14:39. > :14:43.that Blair and Brown were in government. The real issue here is
:14:44. > :14:48.the inequalities in wealth, in assets. If you really want to change
:14:49. > :14:51.that, you need to look at inheritance tax, at capital gains
:14:52. > :14:55.tax, so you are not giving more and more assets to those who already
:14:56. > :15:00.have them, and you shift to a more long-term system where it is worth
:15:01. > :15:05.people investing in companies and technology and innovation, rather
:15:06. > :15:08.than assets and properties. I would have a policy of helping people get
:15:09. > :15:17.assets, rather than taking assets away from people who have them. It
:15:18. > :15:20.depends for me what she does with it in the end, but are you saying it is
:15:21. > :15:25.a foreign principle to Conservatives to do good. I think Margaret
:15:26. > :15:30.Thatcher believed in the power of the state to do good, Harold
:15:31. > :15:33.Macmillan certainly did. It is a shift from the previous
:15:34. > :15:37.administration. I do not think there is anything particularly novel in
:15:38. > :15:41.that, and I would be very unhappy if she goes to do with workers on board
:15:42. > :15:45.is. That is a daft idea which has not worked in Germany. On the other
:15:46. > :15:50.hand, if she starts building houses, I would be happy. I will give two
:15:51. > :15:54.practical ways you could measure it. At the moment there are 6 million
:15:55. > :15:58.people in this country who earn less than the living wage. So in three or
:15:59. > :16:04.four years, we should maybe test to see whether it is 6 million or if it
:16:05. > :16:12.has come down. 50% of people who are in poverty in this country are
:16:13. > :16:16.working. They are the working poor, not the people that don't go to
:16:17. > :16:19.work, on welfare benefits and don't do anything. They are working, with
:16:20. > :16:23.at least one member of the family out working. Work was meant to pay,
:16:24. > :16:29.but they are still living in poverty. So let's see if we can cut
:16:30. > :16:34.that 50% down. It seems to me, having been the only one here who
:16:35. > :16:38.was in Birmingham, there was all sorts of rhetoric designed to appeal
:16:39. > :16:49.to Labour voters, to the centre, to Lib Dems and so on. We now have to
:16:50. > :16:52.say, let's take her at her word but set yardsticks, tangible yardsticks
:16:53. > :17:00.that can be measured on progress. I agree with that. I'm glad to hear
:17:01. > :17:03.it. A policy she has inherited from George Osborne and David Cameron is
:17:04. > :17:07.a massive increase in the minimum wage, which has now been retitled
:17:08. > :17:11.the national living wage. The consequence is that people in work
:17:12. > :17:15.should be lifted out of poverty. Another consequence is that there
:17:16. > :17:19.will be an enormous attraction to new immigration because our borders
:17:20. > :17:22.are still open while we are a member of the European Union. I think she
:17:23. > :17:26.will have to wrestle with a tremendous attraction to new
:17:27. > :17:29.immigration and the closing down sale, as immigrants assume that once
:17:30. > :17:34.we leave the European Union the doors will not be open. The danger
:17:35. > :17:40.is that it was a very populist speech. She did not say the word fat
:17:41. > :17:45.cats, but she meant people like Philip Green. She did not name check
:17:46. > :17:49.him but she talked about him, taking money out of dividends for a company
:17:50. > :17:54.whose pension was going down the Swanee. But then we hear that they
:17:55. > :18:01.are allowing fracking, which puts money into big business and goes
:18:02. > :18:06.against what the public want. How do you know what the public want? The
:18:07. > :18:12.public want energy. But they could spend money on energy that people
:18:13. > :18:20.were not against. 185,000 people signed a... I am against wind power.
:18:21. > :18:25.It is different people. Here we go. These assertions that he knows what
:18:26. > :18:27.the public wants! There has been enough gas in the studio tonight.
:18:28. > :18:29.Thanks for coming in. But don't despair because Steven
:18:30. > :18:33.Woolfe is sitting up in his bed and says he's "happier and brighter
:18:34. > :18:36.and smiling as ever", he still wants her old job,
:18:37. > :18:41.unless of course he defects to the Tories and
:18:42. > :18:45.wants Theresa May's. And if all these party conference
:18:46. > :18:48.speeches have left you cold and baffled, don't despair
:18:49. > :18:50.because George the Poet is waiting in the wings, ready to put the power
:18:51. > :18:57.of speech in tonight's Spotlight. And if expressing yourself
:18:58. > :18:59.ain't your thing, you'll feel right at home on SnapNumpty,
:19:00. > :19:02.TwitterBollocks, FleecebookDrivel and just about everything else
:19:03. > :19:07.on the intergalactic web sphere. Now these are dangerous times,
:19:08. > :19:10.as Ukip MEP Steven Woolfe found out the hard way today,
:19:11. > :19:12.ending up in a Strasbourg hospital after what's euphemistically
:19:13. > :19:15.described as an "altercation" If they'd been in different parties
:19:16. > :19:22.it could have been total war. Anyway, the good news is that
:19:23. > :19:24.Mr Woolfe is expected to make a full recovery,
:19:25. > :19:27.which is more than can Some have suggested that,
:19:28. > :19:31.like Mr Woolfe, the party should But that could prove anatomically
:19:32. > :19:35.challenging for the scanner. However this Brexit business
:19:36. > :19:38.is causing friction Battle ready, but party
:19:39. > :19:42.conference weary, the BBC's Deputy Political Editor,
:19:43. > :19:46."John Pienaar The Brave", girded his loins to bring
:19:47. > :19:48.us some ripping yarns 950 years ago this week,
:19:49. > :20:25.King Harold Godwinson marched south Sounds like some guy
:20:26. > :20:33.from the accounts department. Anyway, would have been good
:20:34. > :20:37.if he'd won, wouldn't it? If we'd have seen off those foreign
:20:38. > :20:39.invaders at the very beginning there would have
:20:40. > :20:43.been no need for Brexit. As it turns out, our modern-day
:20:44. > :20:46.Queen Boudicca, Theresa May, is having to clear up the mess
:20:47. > :20:50.after us fighting our way out of the European Union
:20:51. > :20:54.and reunite the country again. She's ambitious, that one,
:20:55. > :20:56.wants to show she's on the side of the peasants and get the Labour
:20:57. > :21:00.tribe on her side as well, all united in a fine,
:21:01. > :21:07.happy land called the centre. I want to set our party
:21:08. > :21:10.and our country on the path towards the new centre ground
:21:11. > :21:15.of British politics, built on the values of fairness
:21:16. > :21:19.and opportunity, where everyone plays by the same rules
:21:20. > :21:24.and where every single person, regardless of their background,
:21:25. > :21:29.or that of their parents, is given the chance to be
:21:30. > :21:34.all they want to be. Good kings and queens have to be
:21:35. > :21:38.politicians and diplomats You need a blade of steel
:21:39. > :21:42.and a tongue of silver and know how to please the crowd
:21:43. > :21:44.when you have to do that. Well, Theresa May has
:21:45. > :21:49.to please the crowd, those millions who did not just want
:21:50. > :21:53.out of the European Union, they want King Harold didn't do such a good
:21:54. > :21:58.job of that, did he? But let's state one thing
:21:59. > :22:02.loud and clear. We are not leaving
:22:03. > :22:05.the European Union only to give up control of immigration
:22:06. > :22:09.all over again. And we are not leaving only
:22:10. > :22:12.to return to the jurisdiction We are leaving to become once more
:22:13. > :22:20.a fully sovereign and independent country, and the deal is going
:22:21. > :22:24.to have to work for Britain. And that Britain, the Britain
:22:25. > :22:30.we build after Brexit, Probably helps that the Labour
:22:31. > :22:38.tribes here at home It's an opportunity for Theresa May
:22:39. > :22:45.to try to do what every Tory leader since Thatcher the Ferocious has
:22:46. > :22:48.wanted to do, turn the red The Labour Party is not just
:22:49. > :22:59.divided but divisive. Fighting among themselves,
:23:00. > :23:02.abusing their own MPs, threatening to end their careers,
:23:03. > :23:06.tolerating anti-Semitism The Tory army in Birmingham loved
:23:07. > :23:24.that, much more than they liked being told off by Theresa May a few
:23:25. > :23:27.years ago when she told them This time, she was after everyone,
:23:28. > :23:34.greedy bosses, tax dodgers, And the Tories were getting
:23:35. > :23:39.what they wanted to hear, I say, come with me and we will
:23:40. > :23:47.write that brighter future, come with me
:23:48. > :23:50.and we will make that change. Come with me as we rise
:23:51. > :23:54.to meet this moment. Come with me, and together let's
:23:55. > :24:00.seize the day. You almost had
:24:01. > :24:07.to get up and cheer. Trouble is, they'd already heard
:24:08. > :24:10.from the second Lord He wanted to sound reassuring
:24:11. > :24:16.but it was a hard draft of reality, As the economy responds
:24:17. > :24:19.over the coming months, fiscal policy may also
:24:20. > :24:24.have a role to play. Throughout the negotiating process,
:24:25. > :24:30.we are ready to take whatever steps are necessary to protect this
:24:31. > :24:35.economy from turbulence. And when the process is over,
:24:36. > :24:39.we are ready to provide support to British businesses as they adjust
:24:40. > :24:44.to life outside the EU. Because Brexit does mean Brexit,
:24:45. > :24:47.and we are going to Every court has got someone
:24:48. > :24:55.who thinks it's all a bit of a game, and Theresa has
:24:56. > :24:57.got Boris, her jester. But he's trying not to be too funny
:24:58. > :25:00.these days because he's in charge of foreign policy,
:25:01. > :25:03.which only goes to show Theresa May has got a sense of humour, too,
:25:04. > :25:06.and they are both keen to show they think Brexit will work out
:25:07. > :25:09.well, whatever they may I've made friends, I've made
:25:10. > :25:13.alliances, I've struck up I've had wonderful conversations
:25:14. > :25:19.in the various Euro creoles But I have to tell any lingering
:25:20. > :25:31.gloomadon poppers here in this audience that never once,
:25:32. > :25:33.never once have I felt in all my conversations
:25:34. > :25:36.in the European Council, that this country would be in any
:25:37. > :25:39.way disadvantaged by extricating On the contrary, I think
:25:40. > :25:45.there are many ways You need that in politics in any
:25:46. > :25:56.party, certainly a lot tougher than the Lady Diane James of Ukip,
:25:57. > :26:00.who lasted as leader for as long Then she decided she didn't
:26:01. > :26:05.have the authority I keep getting over the wall
:26:06. > :26:16.and running for the hills and before So yes, I will continue
:26:17. > :26:21.as the interim leader Well, Theresa May is certain to last
:26:22. > :26:28.longer than Diane James. She may even last longer
:26:29. > :26:31.than Nigel Farage, who will be with us for what,
:26:32. > :26:33.40, 50 years? If she's going to get a good deal
:26:34. > :26:37.in Europe and keep the Tory tribe united and take over Labour's
:26:38. > :27:09.heartlands, she'll need luck John Pienaar, even polite to passers
:27:10. > :27:14.by as a warrior. You can't get more British than that. Is Philip Hammond
:27:15. > :27:19.right to abandon George Osborne's budget deficit targets? I think it's
:27:20. > :27:25.very risky. I was looking at the figures today. National debt has
:27:26. > :27:31.gone from about 30% of our annual income in about 2004, up to 85%
:27:32. > :27:34.today. The idea that we have been going through austerity seems
:27:35. > :27:39.completely far-fetched. We have run a deficit year after year. Normally
:27:40. > :27:42.it is the largest in the European Union, and the national debt is
:27:43. > :27:47.creeping to 100% of our national income. Those who complain about
:27:48. > :27:53.austerity are wrong and those who believe the Chancellor has a great
:27:54. > :27:58.deal of leeway are also wrong. What he is saying now, about borrowing to
:27:59. > :28:07.invest, sounds a little bit like Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. It does
:28:08. > :28:09.indeed. It sounded very familiar. I thought the rhetoric of Hammond's
:28:10. > :28:18.speech was quite different from George Osborne's. I can assure you,
:28:19. > :28:21.there was no rhetoric! Well, the spin was different. We have yet to
:28:22. > :28:26.see whether he really will be using fiscal policy in a more active way.
:28:27. > :28:29.It was very interesting what Theresa May said about Monetary Policy
:28:30. > :28:35.Committee some of the bad consequences that has had. Which has
:28:36. > :28:38.ramped up assets. Those who have assets are seeing them go up. That
:28:39. > :28:45.has been the inequalities impact of quantitative easing -- content --
:28:46. > :28:50.quantitative easing. Then we heard some briefing from her policy person
:28:51. > :28:55.about a more active fiscal policy. We did not see that in Hammond's
:28:56. > :29:00.speech. ?2 billion for housing, compared to the whole budget, is a
:29:01. > :29:03.drop in the ocean. Let's see what happens in the Autumn Statement. I
:29:04. > :29:07.know many of you may have thought his speech was full of doom and
:29:08. > :29:12.gloom and boring, but I thought, and I can't believe I'm saying this,
:29:13. > :29:13.thank goodness there is one minister who has a scintilla of understanding
:29:14. > :29:35.about the risks out there. I think QE will start to be wound up
:29:36. > :29:39.in Britain. The problem the Chancellor faces is that the deficit
:29:40. > :29:42.is probably going to rise anyway, even without the extra money for
:29:43. > :29:47.investment. If the economy slows down, the tax revenues will stop
:29:48. > :29:52.coming in and the deficit is going to rise even if he doesn't spend any
:29:53. > :29:56.more? Yes. It's always surprising to me that the idea of borrowing more
:29:57. > :30:00.and more is associated with the left. It means we get a freeish ride
:30:01. > :30:07.today and pass the debts down to our children. We have already been
:30:08. > :30:10.discussing this evening about how the new generations are
:30:11. > :30:13.disadvantaged by comparison than former generations. The more we
:30:14. > :30:19.borrow, the more we'll disadvantage the future generations. It's not a
:30:20. > :30:24.straightforward policy at all. Do you think if the economy grows, if
:30:25. > :30:28.you invest in the right things and the economy grows, then that
:30:29. > :30:34.national debt will fall as a percentage of GDP over time? And if
:30:35. > :30:39.we become a more productive economy too, you know. He also has, I mean
:30:40. > :30:43.the big question is, is it possible in a world that's more connected
:30:44. > :30:51.than ever before with China, with Indian, for us to have wealth that
:30:52. > :30:55.is shared by all? Can we be a high-skilled high-tech country, can
:30:56. > :31:01.we spread the growth? The only region that's seen its GDP go back
:31:02. > :31:06.to pre-crisis levels is London and the south-east, everywhere else is
:31:07. > :31:12.falling behind. That's an experience that many countries is had. Back to
:31:13. > :31:16.what Andrew said, if it can be taken for granted that it's spending money
:31:17. > :31:19.that you haven't got and earned, borrowing money, if it could be
:31:20. > :31:24.guaranteed these things made the economy grow, we'd all do it. It's
:31:25. > :31:28.debatable whether that is what happens. It may be argued that
:31:29. > :31:32.Dickensian policies worked in the 30s, it can also be argued that
:31:33. > :31:38.other things were happening in the economy at the same time. But the
:31:39. > :31:42.left takes it as absolutely for granted that spending money we
:31:43. > :31:46.haven't earned will make the economy grow is a doubtful proposition.
:31:47. > :31:50.Everything the Government said in Birmingham implies that on the
:31:51. > :31:55.Brexit we'll no longer be a member of the single market. Yes. It's the
:31:56. > :32:00.logic of everything they say. Why won't they just admit it? Sorry, I
:32:01. > :32:11.thought they had. No, they won't admit it. I thought Theresa May had
:32:12. > :32:15.come pretty clear about that. She said you would have to... I thought
:32:16. > :32:18.that was a great achievement of the conference, that that matter had
:32:19. > :32:22.been settled. Immigration matters the most, we are not going to be a
:32:23. > :32:26.part of the single market. Immigration isn't the thing that
:32:27. > :32:30.happens the most, having a growing economy is what matters. It's what
:32:31. > :32:33.the public voted for and the Government's taken that on the chin,
:32:34. > :32:38.they have to control immigration and also they can't be a member of the
:32:39. > :32:46.single market because the country has to be sovereign. The reason she
:32:47. > :32:50.won't say it is she knows our manufacturing companies are deeply
:32:51. > :32:53.concerned about what that will mean nor tariffs and non-tariff barriers.
:32:54. > :32:59.She knows the City, which we are still very reliant on for so much of
:33:00. > :33:02.the money in this country, is terrified of losing passporting.
:33:03. > :33:07.This is the problem, immigration isn't the most important thing in
:33:08. > :33:12.the country. Having a great, strong and growing economy is. This is why
:33:13. > :33:15.I really disagree with so many commentators who've written this
:33:16. > :33:19.week "she's on the centre ground". She is not. You do not have
:33:20. > :33:27.immigration driving your economic policy. That is a huge mistake. You
:33:28. > :33:30.might, if you are trying to get a movement of more opportunity to the
:33:31. > :33:36.ordinary working family who is 're in this country. Amber Rudd, a
:33:37. > :33:41.member I would say of the Liberal Metropolitan elite has nevertheless
:33:42. > :33:47.come up with this idea - I made fun of her in the introduction - but
:33:48. > :33:52.there should be a register of what percentage our immigrants... As if
:33:53. > :33:56.that is a badge of shame. Ed Miliband suggested it's the
:33:57. > :34:03.opposition. That is wrong. That is divisive. Very popular. The poll's
:34:04. > :34:08.just come out showing it's popular in the countries of old, it's
:34:09. > :34:12.popular with Conservative voters. The great leadership is not always
:34:13. > :34:17.about leading for the national interest. It's not about fellowship,
:34:18. > :34:20.I agree with that. Politically, I can see that it's sound, it
:34:21. > :34:27.challenges Ukip and the Labour Party. It appeals to the instincts
:34:28. > :34:31.of many people in this country so in that way... Is it not the case that
:34:32. > :34:36.some companies in this country have found it easier to go abroad to
:34:37. > :34:41.bring in Labour, rather than doing the heavy lifting of training the
:34:42. > :34:46.people and skilling the people who're already here? Is that true?
:34:47. > :34:50.The businesses in my constituency, it's not that they are going abroad,
:34:51. > :34:55.it's what they are saying is young people are leaving school and don't
:34:56. > :35:01.have the work-ready skills. Now, that is where I've... Employers do
:35:02. > :35:04.need to do the training but it's not about education, but vocational
:35:05. > :35:07.skills. The Government is blaming employers for something which is
:35:08. > :35:11.fundamentally the Government's fault. In Germany and Austria, the
:35:12. > :35:17.employers do a lot of the training as well. We want both. Shadow
:35:18. > :35:21.Cabinet reshuffle tonight, a major one of big positions. No sign of
:35:22. > :35:28.elections to the Shadow Cabinet though. Has the PLP been duped by
:35:29. > :35:36.the Corbyn Is thats? I don't think anyone's been duped. -- Corbynistas.
:35:37. > :35:41.It's his right to appoint the team, let us get on with the business of
:35:42. > :35:44.us opposing the Government and stop turning in on ourselves. All this
:35:45. > :35:49.business about electing the Shadow Cabinet, even part of it, there was
:35:50. > :35:53.never a running? Many MPs thought it would be. Clearly from tonight, he's
:35:54. > :35:58.going ahead and appointing his team. He's the leader, he's got the right
:35:59. > :36:04.to do that. I want to see us working together as much as we can. What
:36:05. > :36:08.we've seen this week at the Conservative conference I think has
:36:09. > :36:12.been bad for the country and it's about time we stood up for the
:36:13. > :36:17.people that we are supposed to represent. We should not be going
:36:18. > :36:22.for this hard Brexit. I think it would be a disaster for economy.
:36:23. > :36:26.But don't expect any wicked wordplay to arrest the relentless decline
:36:27. > :36:32.After all, Liz and Michael here are no slick orators.
:36:33. > :36:34.Why do you think they started on the front benches
:36:35. > :36:39.And after three weeks of party conferences I've had my fill
:36:40. > :36:44.of snollygosters, honeyfugglers, hornswogglers and prestidigitation.
:36:45. > :36:52.That's why we're putting the power of speech in this week's spotlight.
:36:53. > :36:57.There's never been a more exciting time to be a Conservative.
:36:58. > :37:02.Commentators labelled speeches at this week's
:37:03. > :37:24.Does rousing rhetoric matter to a Prime Minister
:37:25. > :37:26.who thinks politics is more about substance than style.
:37:27. > :37:28.It's about doing something, not being someone.
:37:29. > :37:32.On the other side of the pond, Donald Trump's polling numbers have
:37:33. > :37:35.dipped after a poor run of public appearances.
:37:36. > :37:37.Cue Nigel Farage who's been giving him some tips
:37:38. > :37:40.on communication ahead of this weekend's Presidential debate.
:37:41. > :37:44.What you've got to do, Donald, is talk to people sitting at home
:37:45. > :37:49.Don't get involved in a cat fight Hillary.
:37:50. > :37:53.Rodrigo Duterte, controversial new leader of the Philippines,
:37:54. > :37:57.appeared to compare his war on drugs to the Holocaust.
:37:58. > :38:16.But is he an example of someone who wields words irresponsibly?
:38:17. > :38:19.Trust them with no-one's detective skills...
:38:20. > :38:22.George the Poet knows all about the power of speech.
:38:23. > :38:26.So how important is language when it comes to causing a stir?
:38:27. > :38:38.George is with us now. Welcome to the programme. Thank you very much.
:38:39. > :38:42.Is the spoken word still the most persuasive form of communication? I
:38:43. > :38:48.think it is because it's the crux of human communication. Anything else
:38:49. > :38:52.is an offshoot or an adaptation and you can see the central role that it
:38:53. > :38:57.will play in politics at least. And if you want to get your message
:38:58. > :39:00.across, it's not enough just to have a good message, you've got to know
:39:01. > :39:07.how to sell, communicate that message? I mean, that's been the
:39:08. > :39:12.trend of politics for a while now: Unfortunately, it's not just about
:39:13. > :39:15.being right, it's about being persuasive, convincing, popular to
:39:16. > :39:20.an extent. People can tell as well, can't they? I mean they can. People
:39:21. > :39:24.naturally respond to someone who naff Radio rally takes to the stage
:39:25. > :39:30.-- naturally takes to the stage. Then you get the style of a
:39:31. > :39:33.substance. Even when the person talking is perfectly capable of
:39:34. > :39:38.making a sound argument, it's so easy to win people over if you can
:39:39. > :39:43.do it with charisma. Do you change the way you communicate depending on
:39:44. > :39:48.who you're speaking to? Oh, 100%. I've done that since I was a child.
:39:49. > :39:52.I'm from an inner city community. I went to a grammar school, then I
:39:53. > :39:57.went to Cambridge and I was always like flitting between different
:39:58. > :40:02.kinds of communities and people so it became a survival technique. To
:40:03. > :40:07.do that and to change? Yes. Michael, this isn't an age of great rhetoric
:40:08. > :40:12.is it? I say that having been at both Party Conferences, Labour and
:40:13. > :40:16.Tory, they are not great speakers? I think it's a confused picture, I
:40:17. > :40:20.think someone like Obama became President on the back of rhetoric.
:40:21. > :40:23.Trump has got to where he's got to by hitting certain buttons amongst a
:40:24. > :40:30.certain part of the American public. On the other hand, David Cameron who
:40:31. > :40:34.was a better orator than Theresa May was less successful in six years in
:40:35. > :40:39.telling people what he was about than Theresa May has been in the
:40:40. > :40:42.last six weeks. That's true. People have a bigger understanding of what
:40:43. > :40:49.Theresa May is about than they ever had about what David Cameron was
:40:50. > :40:53.about despite poorer rhetoric. She answered that question why do you
:40:54. > :40:57.want to be Prime Minister, Cameron said, because I'd be rather good at
:40:58. > :41:02.it. I think you are right, Andrew, by the speeches that I remember,
:41:03. > :41:17.mostly actually are by Americans, whether it's Martin Luther King or
:41:18. > :41:20.my favourite JFK's. It's something that we don't do, remembering
:41:21. > :41:23.speeches. There are great political speeches, maybe just not so many
:41:24. > :41:30.around at the moment? There have been. There have been. I suppose it
:41:31. > :41:34.comes from what I always revert to, conviction. When people feel there
:41:35. > :41:38.is something to be said and stood for, memorable sentiment comes out
:41:39. > :41:42.of that. If that doesn't exist, it's hard to do it. Politicians need two
:41:43. > :41:46.forms of communication. You were saying you change because the skills
:41:47. > :41:52.that may make a politician good in a studio like this, talking to people
:41:53. > :41:56.like me, may not be the same sort of skills that made JFK the great
:41:57. > :41:59.orator or Churchill, or Churchill may have been bad in a studio like
:42:00. > :42:11.this. The two skills are not the same, are they? Not at all. That all
:42:12. > :42:16.comes down to multi-modal speech, basically being able to switch it up
:42:17. > :42:20.which is often said about a lot of career politicians that haven't had
:42:21. > :42:23.experience in other areas dealing with other communities. There is a
:42:24. > :42:29.gap there. You are not going to make that connection otherwise. The
:42:30. > :42:36.strongest speech from this Party Conference was Tom Watson's. That
:42:37. > :42:42.was the Labour Party Conference. What are you up to? So, my whole
:42:43. > :42:46.thing is trying to create a community out of my audience. I'm
:42:47. > :42:51.about to start my new tour The Search Party tour. In that, all of
:42:52. > :42:55.my poems are topical so while I've got you in the space and we are
:42:56. > :43:00.feeling something about a present issue, let's do something about it,
:43:01. > :43:03.so I built an advocacy model. I thought you meant right now. He is,
:43:04. > :43:08.because, let me lead up to it, But not for us because we're
:43:09. > :43:12.off to Annabelle's for We were going to drop
:43:13. > :43:16.in at Lou Lous, where it's "Whose But the answer is always the same -
:43:17. > :43:21.Nigel Farage - and Michael and I were worried we couldn't vouch
:43:22. > :43:23.for Liz's safety, given the party's current
:43:24. > :43:25.predilection for altercations. We'll leave you though
:43:26. > :43:28.with George the Poet, and his song Search Party,
:43:29. > :43:31.which is exactly Nighty night, don't let
:43:32. > :43:44.UKIP's fisticuffs bite. Listen, if you are in any way
:43:45. > :43:48.interested in the future of the world you've invested in, the
:43:49. > :43:52.destiny of the place you now reside, after all the conventional powers
:43:53. > :43:56.died, please consider walking down to our side. We can talk about the
:43:57. > :44:00.wide and the north and south divide and of course the housing crisis
:44:01. > :44:03.which are now in crisis. We hold discussions on property value and
:44:04. > :44:07.how it rises and even when we don't have the answers we are happy to
:44:08. > :44:10.direct you to where all the sound advice is. Our policies may not
:44:11. > :44:14.always sound the nicest but you finally found a guy that's starting
:44:15. > :44:16.to fight this. So as long as you want to be courageous, I promise
:44:17. > :44:26.you, we are going to see some changes.
:44:27. > :44:27.APPLAUSE. Good stuff, George. Thank you.