:00:24. > :00:35.Listen very carefully, Michael, I will say this only once.
:00:36. > :00:37.There is a strange woman standing behind me.
:00:38. > :00:49.I've joined the resistance of This Week.
:00:50. > :00:52.And you know what, the far right are still donkeys
:00:53. > :01:10.I have eluded the enemy and stowed away on the HMS This Week.
:01:11. > :01:17.But the political waters are looking choppy.
:01:18. > :01:24.Have you got the fallen Madonna with the big boobies?
:01:25. > :01:30.No, I'm a British historian and I am come to talk about nostalgia.
:01:31. > :01:35.Ah, that is why we are in this 80s sitcom.
:01:36. > :01:38.Time to crack open the lovely vintage the Germans
:01:39. > :01:54.May you have happiness all your life.
:01:55. > :02:00.And let me make it clear right from the start that when I said last
:02:01. > :02:03.week that the self-employed were a bunch of tax-dodging chavs
:02:04. > :02:05.cluttering up our streets with their ramshackle,
:02:06. > :02:08.pollution-emitting white vans who deserve to be whacked
:02:09. > :02:12.with a dose of extra tax, it was obviously just my jocular way
:02:13. > :02:15.of saying the self-employed are the backbone of the nation,
:02:16. > :02:18.risk-takers, entrepreneurs, strivers, saints,
:02:19. > :02:22.who will never pay a penny more in tax as long as I have
:02:23. > :02:25.breath in my body and ink on my spreadsheet.
:02:26. > :02:28.I'm surprised how many of you didn't get that.
:02:29. > :02:31.And when I said that I'd no idea what was in the Tory election
:02:32. > :02:34.of manifesto until the BBC informed me, what I was clearly
:02:35. > :02:36.saying was that, of course, I'd read the manifesto
:02:37. > :02:41.But only this week did I discover that it was, in fact,
:02:42. > :02:44.a blueprint for government and not a work of fiction.
:02:45. > :02:47.I'm sure I'm not alone in making that mistake.
:02:48. > :02:50.Anyway today we put all that behind us and unveiled our post-Brexit
:02:51. > :02:55.Now it's true the launch has been beset with technical difficulties.
:02:56. > :02:58.Indeed if you try to go to the home page you're told
:02:59. > :03:02.the plan "isn't working", but that only makes it all the more
:03:03. > :03:06.emblematic of the May government right now.
:03:07. > :03:08.Speaking of those whose plans, and careers, have long been
:03:09. > :03:11.in tatters, and whose political prospects are indeed the stuff
:03:12. > :03:14.of fiction, I'm joined on the sofa tonight by two prime examples
:03:15. > :03:18.of the self-employed, because who else would give them a job?
:03:19. > :03:21.I speak, of course, of Michael #choochoo Portillo
:03:22. > :03:39.Your moment of the week, Michael? Mr Craig Mackey in Leigh MP for Thanet
:03:40. > :03:44.South, I think, has been interviewed by the police. Apparently there are
:03:45. > :03:49.a dozen police forces investigating possible infringements of election
:03:50. > :03:54.expenses. The Conservative battlebus visited 29 marginal constituencies.
:03:55. > :04:00.Potentially, this could be a catastrophe. It may not turn out
:04:01. > :04:05.that way. But if you look at the downside, there could be a very
:04:06. > :04:10.large number of by-elections created by this and that would be a game
:04:11. > :04:13.changer. In such a situation, I think the government would surely
:04:14. > :04:18.choose to have a general election rather than a succession of
:04:19. > :04:21.by-elections because there would be so many. Just a straw in the wind,
:04:22. > :04:28.but it is quite worrying. It is a huge story. Worrying if you are a
:04:29. > :04:34.Tory, great if you are a journalist. David Davis' appearance before the
:04:35. > :04:42.Brexit select committee. I thought that was the big story this week. He
:04:43. > :04:46.said the Government has made no assessment of what no deal would
:04:47. > :04:54.mean for Britain when we leave the EU. For me, I felt he was dismissive
:04:55. > :04:59.and disdainful. Sorry to say this, Michael. About the impact that
:05:00. > :05:03.tariffs or losing passport in rights would have on jobs and businesses. I
:05:04. > :05:06.think there are a lot of anxious people out there worried about what
:05:07. > :05:08.will happen and he did not treat them with respect. It was a well
:05:09. > :05:10.covered event. Last year gave us Brexit
:05:11. > :05:12.and Donald Trump, and two huge victories
:05:13. > :05:14.for anti-establishment populism. But are these both examples
:05:15. > :05:17.of Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism, or is the populist insurgency
:05:18. > :05:19.about to take continental A series of European elections
:05:20. > :05:24.in 2017 is putting that But the insurgents have stumbled
:05:25. > :05:29.at the first hurdle, with the party of Geert Wilders,
:05:30. > :05:31.the far-right, anti-immigrant Islamophobe who wants to ban
:05:32. > :05:35.the Koran and tear down mosques, coming a disappointing second
:05:36. > :05:39.in Holland's general election, dashing his hopes that he would
:05:40. > :05:41.top the poll. But Mr Wilders still gained seats,
:05:42. > :05:44.while the ruling centre-right party lost plenty and its coalition
:05:45. > :05:48.partner, the mainstream So the Dutch establishment,
:05:49. > :05:54.which was dragged to the right during the campaign,
:05:55. > :05:56.didn't have it all its own way and could take months and months
:05:57. > :06:00.to form a new government. Meanwhile the election caravan moves
:06:01. > :06:03.to France in April and the much more significant challenge
:06:04. > :06:06.to the established order of Here's French journalist Agnes
:06:07. > :06:22.Poirier with her take of the week. Something extraordinary happened
:06:23. > :06:25.yesterday across the Channel The Geert, you know Wilders,
:06:26. > :06:31.the Dutch Trump, did not become Not that we in Europe
:06:32. > :06:37.ever thought he would. The same way you keep telling us
:06:38. > :06:42.that Marine Le Pen is going to win the next presidential
:06:43. > :06:55.elections in France. Marine, President de la
:06:56. > :07:00.France, who says so? Oh, yes, British and American
:07:01. > :07:03.tabloids, and Breitbart, of course, the news website that pretends
:07:04. > :07:06.to serve the people but lies Le Pen is everywhere,
:07:07. > :07:15.and I think I need a drink. It has run two glowing stories
:07:16. > :07:27.about Marine Le Pen every day Because fear sells,
:07:28. > :07:34.and because there is an element, as our German friends would say,
:07:35. > :07:37.of schadenfreude, you know, the pleasure felt at
:07:38. > :07:44.somebody else's misfortune. After Brexit and Trump,
:07:45. > :07:46.the British and the Americans would so much want to see the French
:07:47. > :07:50.behave as stupidly as them. But hang on, I'm not saying
:07:51. > :07:53.we won't and I'm not saying we aren't capable of shooting
:07:54. > :07:55.ourselves in the foot, What I'm saying, however,
:07:56. > :08:01.is that there are two rounds. And unless half the electorate stays
:08:02. > :08:03.at home, which never happened The real story, my friends, is the
:08:04. > :08:20.rise of the centris Emmanuel Macron. Imagine that, centrism beating
:08:21. > :08:24.populism in the ballot box. I raise my glass to
:08:25. > :08:35.the revolutionary centre. Merci, Maman le Mot,
:08:36. > :08:37.for providing our French filming locations today,
:08:38. > :08:56.just by the Seine at London Bridge. Are you a modern Marie Antoinette?
:08:57. > :08:59.No one expected Geert Wilders to be Prime Minister but people did thing
:09:00. > :09:03.you might come first. But he was never going to be Prime Minister or
:09:04. > :09:07.even in government. Everywhere mainstream parties are in retreat,
:09:08. > :09:10.the Greek Labour Party, wiped out, the Dutch Labour Party, crippled
:09:11. > :09:15.yesterday. The governing Socialist will not make the second round.
:09:16. > :09:20.Neither will the main French centre-right party, but everything
:09:21. > :09:24.is OK because of Emmanuel Macron? I am not saying everything is OK. We
:09:25. > :09:32.should do another film about the collapse of the left in Europe. The
:09:33. > :09:35.Social Democrats left? Well, Emmanuel Macron is a social
:09:36. > :09:38.democracy, you know. But Labour or the left are in disarray everywhere
:09:39. > :09:46.and that is the elephant in the room. That is why Marine Le Pen and
:09:47. > :09:54.Geert Wilders are so scary. But we shouldn't be so scared. There is
:09:55. > :09:59.this self fulfilling prophecy. Impending doom. We should stop being
:10:00. > :10:03.so scared because that is how things happen. But maybe we have to
:10:04. > :10:06.recognise what is going on and the danger that could be there. Even
:10:07. > :10:12.where mainstream parties cling to power, as they are in Holland, they
:10:13. > :10:17.do so by tacking to the right. Look at the Dutch Prime Minister. He is a
:10:18. > :10:20.moderate centre-right guy, and he took out adverts telling immigrants
:10:21. > :10:25.if they did not like Holland they should go home. He even banned
:10:26. > :10:29.Turkish ministers from campaigning in the Turkish referendum. They have
:10:30. > :10:36.moved to the right, away from the mainstream, because there is such a
:10:37. > :10:40.threat to them. Yes, it is true. But it is not new. Marine Le Pen has
:10:41. > :10:47.been around, and her father, of course, since the mid-90s. She will
:10:48. > :10:52.do much better than her father. Absolutely, and the shock will be
:10:53. > :11:02.for her to lose by only 20%. He got 18%. So what am I missing? It seems
:11:03. > :11:06.to be quite scary if you are a centrist. It will be scary. Why
:11:07. > :11:10.should not say she is not going to be elected, but I really feel this,
:11:11. > :11:15.you know, coming from America and Britain especially, you don't want
:11:16. > :11:20.to be alone in your misery with Brexit. I don't think that the
:11:21. > :11:26.motivation. We are wondering whether there is, as I said, whether this is
:11:27. > :11:31.Anglo-Saxon exceptionalism, or something is happening across the
:11:32. > :11:37.western democracies. How would you categorise, weak or strong, the
:11:38. > :11:42.European insurgency? I think the mistake made in your film, which is
:11:43. > :11:45.pierced -- mistake made by the establishment in Britain and
:11:46. > :11:50.America, is to think what happened in Brexit and with the election of
:11:51. > :11:53.Trump is that the place was overrun by racists and Islamophobics. Many
:11:54. > :11:57.of the people who voted for Trump were simply fed up with 80 years of
:11:58. > :12:01.socialism as they saw it, and they wanted lower taxes and business to
:12:02. > :12:07.flourish. And a lot of people who voted for Brexit, they included two
:12:08. > :12:11.chancellors of the exchequer, Field marshals. Some of these people were
:12:12. > :12:18.distinguished figures, including former Cabinet ministers like me. To
:12:19. > :12:22.try and say because there was Brexit and Trump we expected Marine Le Pen
:12:23. > :12:26.to win, or Geert Wilders to win, they are not connected. In fact, I
:12:27. > :12:29.am pleased with the way things went in Holland because it begins to
:12:30. > :12:35.destroy the myth that what is happening is a link between Brexit
:12:36. > :12:39.and Islamophobia or racism. There is no link whatsoever. It is great that
:12:40. > :12:44.the Islamophobics not doing well. However, you have made the point
:12:45. > :12:49.that Francois Fillon is not going to figure in the election and
:12:50. > :12:57.Hollande's party is not going to figure at all. That is the
:12:58. > :13:03.distinction in France. Should we be worried, concerned, or is Agnes
:13:04. > :13:08.right that it will come right in the end? I don't underestimate or write
:13:09. > :13:15.off the far right in this country, or across continental Europe. There
:13:16. > :13:21.is no far right in this country. I believe Ukip in many of the things
:13:22. > :13:26.it has said and done... Far right? What would that make the BNP? The
:13:27. > :13:29.poster that Nigel Farage stood in front of saying Britain was at
:13:30. > :13:36.breaking point, for me, was beyond the pale. But the question is not
:13:37. > :13:41.that they are there and to be taken seriously, it is what is your
:13:42. > :13:45.response. And what I take the lesson from Emmanuel Macron in France is,
:13:46. > :13:50.he is not ignoring the argument and is not pandering to it but taking it
:13:51. > :13:56.head-on. And he said, if you are shy, you die. He is standing up and
:13:57. > :14:03.fighting for what he believes in. Let's wait and see. He doesn't even
:14:04. > :14:12.have a party. Agnes, respond. I agree with Liz. If indeed Emmanuel
:14:13. > :14:16.Macron wins, it is a complete change of the political class. Because at
:14:17. > :14:21.the moment it is recruiting what are going to be his MPs, perhaps. We are
:14:22. > :14:24.talking about people who have never done politics, no professional
:14:25. > :14:29.politicians. If he wins, it is the end of the statute -- the
:14:30. > :14:33.establishment as we knew it. The establishment will still control the
:14:34. > :14:37.assembly. He does not have a party. He will not sweep the assembly with
:14:38. > :14:42.his people. He will be governing without the support of Parliament.
:14:43. > :14:45.It will be a complete renewal. You should not underestimate what is
:14:46. > :14:51.going on in France. The story is not so much Marine Le Pen. She is here.
:14:52. > :14:53.But it is the recomposition of politics, and that is what makes it
:14:54. > :15:04.exciting and perhaps hopeful. She will come from Macron on the
:15:05. > :15:07.right on Islam, on immigration, globalisation... And the left as
:15:08. > :15:14.well. She will come from the left on economic policy. We don't know if
:15:15. > :15:20.MacRon can take a punch -- Macron. We don't know what candidate he will
:15:21. > :15:25.be. First debate in a couple of days' time. He had the guts to break
:15:26. > :15:32.the mould. He hasn't. He stands for the French establishment. EU
:15:33. > :15:36.integration, open borders deficit reduction and globalisation. They
:15:37. > :15:41.may be right. It doesn't break any mould. That is what French
:15:42. > :15:44.governments stood for. He broke the party mould. He is not pandering.
:15:45. > :15:50.That is the problem. We saw it in this country where if you move
:15:51. > :15:53.towards your opponents on the far right, they just move further away.
:15:54. > :15:58.You don't solve a problem by pandering to it. You take it head
:15:59. > :16:03.on. Sglp do you have high hopes for Mr Macron? I would have fairlile
:16:04. > :16:09.high hopes he will win the Presidential election I think he's a
:16:10. > :16:14.completely unknown quantity. He is an establishment figure. Soft left
:16:15. > :16:22.stuff. I think, in a - if I understand France, in a hierarchcle
:16:23. > :16:27.country, this 39-year-old who came from nowhere will find it difficult
:16:28. > :16:34.to prevail against the civil service and the organs of the state used to
:16:35. > :16:39.running the country. We will see. Chirac got elected o on a reform
:16:40. > :16:45.programme. Massive majority in the parliament. He was gone in six
:16:46. > :16:49.months. Question yes. You know, Fillon is doing exactly the same
:16:50. > :16:55.thing. I'm going to reform. We doubt he will. Actually, Macron, as you
:16:56. > :17:01.say might be the new Hollande. Is France able - Unreformable? Exactly.
:17:02. > :17:05.That is another question. Fascinating election, isn't it? Yes.
:17:06. > :17:14.Most interesting French presidential election. Unpredictable. Thank you.
:17:15. > :17:16.Good to he soo you again. -- good to see you again.
:17:17. > :17:19.Now, it's late - emergency Cabinet meetings with the BBC's
:17:20. > :17:21.Well, somebody has to tell ministers what's happening!
:17:22. > :17:24.But for those of you hoping that Laura would make
:17:25. > :17:26.an appearance this evening, she sends her apologies.
:17:27. > :17:28.She's been asked to replace Theresa May at the weekly audience
:17:29. > :17:40.The Queen needs to know what is going on too.
:17:41. > :17:42.Then she's off to Wembley to replace Stormzy
:17:43. > :17:47.But don't feel too neglected, because waiting in the wings
:17:48. > :17:49.is author and historian Kate Williams, here to put
:17:50. > :17:52.So stop your Faceblubber, wipe your Twitter tears, we are,
:17:53. > :17:54.as always, all about the Snapcheer here.
:17:55. > :17:57.Now, folks, this whole Scottish independence malarky has been one
:17:58. > :18:02.The SNP aren't going back on what they said at all.
:18:03. > :18:04.When Nicola Sturgeon said that the last independence
:18:05. > :18:07.referendum in 2014 was a once in a lifetime event,
:18:08. > :18:09.she meant a Glasgow lifetime, which means indyref2
:18:10. > :18:29.Here's Andrew Rawnsley with his round up of the political week.
:18:30. > :18:39.The waters look choppy, the scurvy crew are revolting
:18:40. > :18:42.and the captain can't even say whether we'll reach safe harbour
:18:43. > :18:48.But I guess we should give this to the Brexiteers,
:18:49. > :19:01.This week's tale was the suggestion that Brexit will all be plain
:19:02. > :19:06.sailing, just so long as we get a new Royal yacht to replace
:19:07. > :19:14.It is my view that it would indeed add greatly to the soft
:19:15. > :19:16.power of this country, the soft power which is
:19:17. > :19:21.already very considerable, if we were to have such.
:19:22. > :19:24.It has always provided, I know this is part of my honourable
:19:25. > :19:26.friend's prospectus, that the new Britannia should not be
:19:27. > :19:36.Crow's nest, can you see any trade deal?
:19:37. > :19:51.The political week seemed to start out quite well for Captain May,
:19:52. > :19:53.she could even break out a ration of rum to celebrate
:19:54. > :19:56.as the Brexit Bill passed through Parliament unamended.
:19:57. > :20:02.The Government and the Prime Minister have been crystal clear,
:20:03. > :20:05.the people of the United Kingdom have decided to leave
:20:06. > :20:11.The Government will seek to implement this decision in a way
:20:12. > :20:13.that's most beneficial to both the United Kingdom
:20:14. > :20:21.Some thought Article 50 might even be triggered this week,
:20:22. > :20:24.but then Nicola Sturgeon fired her torpedo into the hull
:20:25. > :20:26.of the Government by demanding a second referendum
:20:27. > :20:35.By taking the steps I have set out today, I am ensuring that Scotland's
:20:36. > :20:40.future will be decided not just by me, the Scottish Government
:20:41. > :20:43.or the SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.
:20:44. > :20:59.With Labour all at sea and the Government steering
:21:00. > :21:02.towards a hard Brexit, that the majority of Scots don't
:21:03. > :21:05.want, the nationalists think there may never be a better
:21:06. > :21:07.opportunity to persuade Scotland to go solo.
:21:08. > :21:10.Mrs May has worked that out for herself.
:21:11. > :21:13.If she ever concedes to a second independence referendum,
:21:14. > :21:19.she certainly doesn't want it happening at a time
:21:20. > :21:23.when the Brexit voyage could be at its most perilous.
:21:24. > :21:26.Right now, we should be working together, not pulling apart.
:21:27. > :21:29.We should be working together to get that right deal for Scotland,
:21:30. > :21:34.As I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and so,
:21:35. > :21:41.for that reason, I say to the SNP, now is not the time.
:21:42. > :21:43.Right, time to plot a course for Brexit.
:21:44. > :22:01.Here's the chart, where on earth are we sailing to?
:22:02. > :22:04.In these stormy waters, praise the Lord, that at least one
:22:05. > :22:07.member of the Cabinet has a reputation as a safe pair of hands
:22:08. > :22:22.Faced with a mutiny by Tory MPs, Philip Hammond had to abandon his
:22:23. > :22:24.plan to demand more national insurance contributions from some
:22:25. > :22:32.This Government sets great store in the faith and trust
:22:33. > :22:34.of the British people, especially as we embark
:22:35. > :22:39.on the process of negotiating our exit from the European Union.
:22:40. > :22:44.By making this change today, we are listening to our colleagues
:22:45. > :22:46.and demonstrating our determination to fulfil both the letter
:22:47. > :22:57.and the spirit of our manifesto tax commitments.
:22:58. > :23:02.The Budget unravelling, the Chancellor humiliated,
:23:03. > :23:05.salty language being exchanged between Numbers Ten and Eleven
:23:06. > :23:07.and no less than a dozen police forces investigating allegations
:23:08. > :23:13.that the Conservative Party broke electoral law.
:23:14. > :23:16.PMQs presented Jeremy Corbyn with a golden opportunity to boost
:23:17. > :23:18.the morale of the Labour crew by hammering the Prime Minister -
:23:19. > :23:27.It seems to me like a Government in a bit of chaos here.
:23:28. > :23:37.A Budget, a Budget that unRAFels in seven days.
:23:38. > :23:43.A Conservative manifesto with a very pensive Prime Minister
:23:44. > :23:47.on the Prime Minister saying there will be no increase.
:23:48. > :23:49.A week ago, an increase was announced.
:23:50. > :23:58.I normally stand at this dispatch box and say
:23:59. > :24:00.I won't take any lectures from the right honourable gentleman.
:24:01. > :24:03.When it comes to lectures on chaos he'd be the first
:24:04. > :24:20.I hate to tell you this, but I think we could be adrift.
:24:21. > :24:26.The crew of the HQS Wellington caught up with Andrew
:24:27. > :24:42.He is the beating heart of the Scottish nation. He may not be the
:24:43. > :24:47.hero we deserve. I speak of Jon Nicolson. Welcome back to the
:24:48. > :24:52.programme. Hello. Nicola Sturgeon wants another Scottish referendum in
:24:53. > :24:55.2018-2019. Theresa May says there can't be one until we know the terms
:24:56. > :25:00.of the Brexit deal. What happens next? Well obviously there is
:25:01. > :25:13.something of a stand off, isn't there? The chaos we have seen this
:25:14. > :25:18.week at Westminster with David Davis. That wasn't my question. What
:25:19. > :25:24.happens next? I don't normally do that. What happens? She has got some
:25:25. > :25:27.cheek. What happens next? Well, I don't think she can stand against a
:25:28. > :25:32.second Scottish referendum. Next week it will be passed in the
:25:33. > :25:36.Scottish Parliament. There was a clear manifesto commitment in the
:25:37. > :25:39.SNP's manifesto that if we were pulled out of Europe against our
:25:40. > :25:43.will we would hold a second referendum. Can you imagine the rage
:25:44. > :25:49.that the Brexiteers would have felt if they had to go to Brussels and
:25:50. > :25:53.ask for permission to hold a Brexit referendum? Brussels isn't part of
:25:54. > :25:57.this country, Scotland is? Scots feel themselves to be a country, as
:25:58. > :26:03.you know - No they feel themselves to be a nation. And a country and a
:26:04. > :26:06.nation. This will be the first time that Westminster has ever overruled
:26:07. > :26:13.the wishes of the holy Road Parliament if they try and do it. I
:26:14. > :26:17.mean - The argument is not about the referendum, I suggest. It's about
:26:18. > :26:20.the timing. Even if Nicola Sturgeon got her timetable it would take 18
:26:21. > :26:26.months to unravel Scotland from the UK. That was what was planned in
:26:27. > :26:31.2014, if you had won. So you are leaving the EU no matter when the
:26:32. > :26:34.referendum is because you can't unravel Scotland quickly enough
:26:35. > :26:40.before Britain leaves the EU? What we have been told by David Davis,
:26:41. > :26:44.haven't we, is that 18 months from now there will be a deal on the
:26:45. > :26:51.table. He hopes. That is what he said to us. Right. There has to be
:26:52. > :26:56.unless there is to be complete chaos - We need six months, don't we, for
:26:57. > :27:00.all the parliaments of the European Union to pass the You need 18 deal.
:27:01. > :27:06.Months minimum to get Scotland out of the UK? What, as I understand it,
:27:07. > :27:12.Mrs May is saying, is that Scots should be presented with a deal
:27:13. > :27:15.before they vote. Now, that seems to contradict what the Brexit Secretary
:27:16. > :27:18.says. He says there will be a deal for the all the European
:27:19. > :27:22.parliament's to see in 18 months. There might not be. You know Europe
:27:23. > :27:27.goes down to the wire? I do know that. Who is right. Mrs May? We
:27:28. > :27:32.don't know until we get there? Or the Brexit Secretary. Is the Prime
:27:33. > :27:36.Minister playing with fire by not conceding a second referendum on
:27:37. > :27:40.Nicola Sturgeon's timetable? Well, what I heard Mrs May say was this
:27:41. > :27:43.was not the time. There is nothing, she has not said anything about
:27:44. > :27:49.there not being another referendum. Which I must say I think is rather
:27:50. > :27:53.mag man muss? Really? It was only two-and-a-half years ago that the
:27:54. > :27:57.Scottish people last voted. The last time the Scottish people voted they
:27:58. > :28:00.voted to be part of the United Kingdom. One of the consequences
:28:01. > :28:06.whether there is a referendum or not is a matter for the United Kingdom?
:28:07. > :28:11.Ruth Davidson promised us if we stayed in the United Kingdom. I'm
:28:12. > :28:15.answering your points. I kept quiet during your recent monologue. Mrs
:28:16. > :28:19.May has said nothing at all about there not being another referendum.
:28:20. > :28:23.What has been quite significant, I think this week, is that although
:28:24. > :28:26.it's alleged by Nicola Sturgeon that this is being industryingered
:28:27. > :28:29.because we've decided to leave the European Union, she now says that
:28:30. > :28:34.she's not in anyway committed to reenter the European Union. Now, if
:28:35. > :28:39.that isn't a magnificent piece of ill logic, I don't know what it is.
:28:40. > :28:42.Is it not guaranteed that if Scotland was independent you would
:28:43. > :28:49.apply to join again? We would. Definitely? We would. We want to be
:28:50. > :28:52.in the European Union. What about the EFA? There are routes into the
:28:53. > :29:02.European Union. We would want to be in the European Union. I think one
:29:03. > :29:06.of the significant and in the noticeable things is the changing in
:29:07. > :29:11.attitudes in the capitals of Europe. The European leaders weren't that
:29:12. > :29:17.keen on us splitting away. They saw us as the pod boys trying to break
:29:18. > :29:23.up a state. I have been in Berlin recently. Who is in favour? I spoke
:29:24. > :29:25.to the chair of the Select Committee, the Treasury Select
:29:26. > :29:33.Committee and the EU Select Committee. Was he in favour of
:29:34. > :29:36.Scottish independence The EU Select Committee Chair said Scotland will
:29:37. > :29:40.regain entry into the European Union more quickly and more easily than
:29:41. > :29:45.any other applicant in history. The chair of the Treasury Select
:29:46. > :29:50.Committee said to me Scotland has a sympathetic ear in Germany. But you
:29:51. > :29:53.are conceding what you denied in the last referendum, is that you would
:29:54. > :30:00.have to reapply? It being loos likely. You wouldn't concede it last
:30:01. > :30:02.time. I I don't think you asked me. I asked plenty of Scottish
:30:03. > :30:11.nationalists. The Scottish National 's manifesto
:30:12. > :30:15.for the Holyrood election said they reserved the right to call another
:30:16. > :30:21.referendum if there was a material change in Scotland's circumstances.
:30:22. > :30:27.Brexit is a material change. I think people are sick of division. That is
:30:28. > :30:34.my sense of this. It was such a divisive campaign last time. We have
:30:35. > :30:38.had the EU campaign on top of that. And people, I think, don't want to
:30:39. > :30:44.go back to that situation. That's why we are going to be voting
:30:45. > :30:49.against, in the Scottish parliament, against a second referendum. But
:30:50. > :30:54.would Mrs May be right to deny a second referendum until the Brexit
:30:55. > :30:59.deal is done? It couldn't happen until then, so people have a genuine
:31:00. > :31:03.choice. The difficulty for Nicola Sturgeon is that actually many
:31:04. > :31:09.people who voted yes to independent, about a third, actually want to
:31:10. > :31:13.leave the EU. And the split between those in favour of independence or
:31:14. > :31:16.not has not changed since the Brexit vote, and she wants to make it the
:31:17. > :31:22.winning argument but I think that may not be the case. Quickly,
:31:23. > :31:26.because we have time in months to come to go through this, but if and
:31:27. > :31:30.when there is a second referendum, will the SNP be able to tell the
:31:31. > :31:36.Scottish people what the currency of an independent Scotland would be?
:31:37. > :31:41.Yes, I believe so. What would it be? That has not been announced. As you
:31:42. > :31:46.know, Andrew Wilson has a commission on this at the moment. And will you
:31:47. > :31:52.tell us what tax and spend you would do to get the fiscal deficit,
:31:53. > :31:58.currently 10%, down to the EU's 3% limit? This is also a matter Andrew
:31:59. > :32:03.Wilson is looking at at the moment. So we don't know about public
:32:04. > :32:07.finances, the currency, what deal it would go back into. You are asking
:32:08. > :32:11.people to make a decision on the basis of this? He is saying they
:32:12. > :32:16.will know at the time of the referendum. We shall see. Our
:32:17. > :32:24.damaged is Phillip Hammond by this National Insurance business? David
:32:25. > :32:29.Cameron described Mrs May as submarine May because she lurked
:32:30. > :32:32.under the waters. She seems to have fired a torpedo effectively at the
:32:33. > :32:37.Chancellor and I would say he is listing to port. How damaged is
:32:38. > :32:42.Jeremy Corbyn in his response to the Tory crisis? The response I would
:32:43. > :32:47.like to have seen us make is that Philip Hammond has failed on reform.
:32:48. > :32:51.We have to sort out the fact that we have more people who are sold to
:32:52. > :32:54.employ than on the minimum wage, more self-employed than will work in
:32:55. > :32:58.the public sector by the end of the parliament. Any decent sick pay,
:32:59. > :33:03.maternity pay and holiday pay, and we need to sort out the tax system.
:33:04. > :33:08.We need reform. He has flunked it on reform and he has boxed himself in.
:33:09. > :33:11.We have ended with a ridiculous situation where the Chancellor,
:33:12. > :33:16.forget talking about public finances with what is happening on Brexit,
:33:17. > :33:21.but he has boxed himself in on tax, boxed and self in on spending on all
:33:22. > :33:25.these different departments, and what we need is reform. Reform of
:33:26. > :33:29.the public finances, our public services, and to make sure that we
:33:30. > :33:32.get a decent tax take an proper protections for the self-employed.
:33:33. > :33:38.He has failed on reform and that is the problem. It illustrates the
:33:39. > :33:43.Government's weakness on a relatively minor matter, and a
:33:44. > :33:48.government that face not minor matters which we have been talking
:33:49. > :33:52.about in Scotland and Brexit, too. If you were sitting in Edinburgh
:33:53. > :33:55.like Mrs Sturgeon, or one of the European leaders, you would think, I
:33:56. > :34:02.can negotiate pretty toughly with this government and it crumbles. It
:34:03. > :34:07.was such an amazingly quick about turn, but I had my head in my hands
:34:08. > :34:11.watching Jeremy Corbyn, with an open goal, failing to score. I was
:34:12. > :34:16.thinking, I think the problem with Jeremy Corbyn, who I think is a very
:34:17. > :34:20.decent man, is that he is just not used to debating because his whole
:34:21. > :34:24.political history he has preached to the choir, spoken to fellow
:34:25. > :34:28.travellers. And he just doesn't seem to have the verbal dexterity to
:34:29. > :34:33.stand up in the Commons and fire up when he needs to and be sharp. I
:34:34. > :34:37.know it is immensely frustrating for his supporters throughout the
:34:38. > :34:40.country. Indeed it is. Thank you. Good to see you again.
:34:41. > :34:42.Now, dear old Michael has been having a bit
:34:43. > :34:47.and it's been taking its toll on the rest of us.
:34:48. > :34:49.Every night this week he's been calling me around
:34:50. > :34:51.four in the morning, clearly under the influence
:34:52. > :34:55.Through the incoherent mumbling, often drowned out by the Thomas
:34:56. > :34:57.the Tank Engine theme tune playing loudly in the background,
:34:58. > :35:00.he rambles on about Diane leaving him for Jezza.
:35:01. > :35:02.So to help him with his heartbreak we've decided to put nostalgia
:35:03. > :35:21.# What happened to the world we knew?#
:35:22. > :35:23.On Commonwealth Day, the great and the good celebrated global
:35:24. > :35:28.connections formed when Britain ruled the waves.
:35:29. > :35:32.Such a pleasure to be here and really
:35:33. > :35:40.Is Brexit about returning to these halcyon days?
:35:41. > :35:42.On Tuesday, the Prime Minister seemed to think so.
:35:43. > :35:48.We will be a strong, self-governing, global Britain.
:35:49. > :35:55.With control once again over our borders and our laws.
:35:56. > :35:57.Or is it actually the Remainers who long for
:35:58. > :36:02.On Monday, Lord Tavern seemed to pine for a time
:36:03. > :36:05.when Parliament, not the people, ruled the day.
:36:06. > :36:09.The House of Commons has now, in effect, abandoned the
:36:10. > :36:11.principle of parliamentary democracy, and has taken the view
:36:12. > :36:12.that the referendum verdict is sacrosanct
:36:13. > :36:25.They have to obey the will of the people.
:36:26. > :36:27.Meanwhile, the Donald spent Wednesday looking backwards for
:36:28. > :36:44.And we will make America great again.
:36:45. > :36:54.Historian Kate Williams spends her days studying
:36:55. > :37:13.So are we living in an age of political nostalgia?
:37:14. > :37:21.Happy memories for Michael. Kate Williams joins us. Welcome back to
:37:22. > :37:28.the programme. We are in a bit of an age of nostalgia. It has had a
:37:29. > :37:31.comeback, hasn't it? Definitely in industry but particularly in
:37:32. > :37:36.politics. Nostalgia for certain parts of history. World War II
:37:37. > :37:41.features very heavily. We saw this throughout the referendum campaign.
:37:42. > :37:46.My jaw Farage's Brexit bus was playing the great escape music.
:37:47. > :37:52.About the prisoners of war who escaped the camp. There was a lot of
:37:53. > :37:58.talk about Churchill and whether he would be Leave or Remain. People
:37:59. > :38:06.were comparing Nigel Farage to a blitz defensive bomb. We often talk
:38:07. > :38:09.about our history but we always remember the bits we want to
:38:10. > :38:14.remember. The pony on the walls, Trafalgar. We don't remember things
:38:15. > :38:17.like the Opium Wars, the Anglo Dutch wars in the 17th century. But in the
:38:18. > :38:22.Rijksmuseum, there are pictures of the Anglo Dutch War everywhere
:38:23. > :38:27.because they inflicted quite cataclysmic defeats on us. It is
:38:28. > :38:31.nice sometimes to wallow in nostalgia but it is always
:38:32. > :38:35.selective. Yes. The nostalgia bubble of what we like to remember. They
:38:36. > :38:40.are times when Britain was winning and when we engaged in fair play. I
:38:41. > :38:45.guess you could include America, with Mr Trump's victory and
:38:46. > :38:49.supporters, but is this a particularly British phenomenon at
:38:50. > :38:56.the moment, this nostalgia? Do we see it in Europe as well? It is a
:38:57. > :39:00.strong 21st-century trend, because we have not quite defined the
:39:01. > :39:05.21st-century. But we definitely see it in America. Make America great
:39:06. > :39:11.again. I hear he has patented keep America great for his next campaign.
:39:12. > :39:18.So he is obviously expecting to achieve it pretty quickly. Do you
:39:19. > :39:22.think it is part of a reaction against globalisation, against
:39:23. > :39:27.modernity, people feeling, for those who feel the world has not gone
:39:28. > :39:34.their way, nostalgia is attractive? I think so. Certainly in America
:39:35. > :39:39.there is a lot of must Alger for the 1950s, for the 1950s high school,
:39:40. > :39:50.when America felt that the world power. But not nostalgia for
:39:51. > :39:54.segregation. This is it. Donald Trump says make America great again
:39:55. > :39:57.but it is a very selective vision. But that is very powerful and it is
:39:58. > :40:02.working in America and I think it has worked. History has figured
:40:03. > :40:10.heavily throughout the referendum campaign. Mr Johnson compared you --
:40:11. > :40:17.the EU to Hitler. Are you nostalgic about anything, may be times when
:40:18. > :40:22.Labour was winning elections? 1997 when we started winning elections.
:40:23. > :40:29.That was a forward-looking election. It was. Change can be frightening
:40:30. > :40:37.and there is a tendency to think you can stop it, but you cannot stop the
:40:38. > :40:42.invention of technology, or Chinese expansion. The question is can you
:40:43. > :40:46.see is change and make it work for most people. That is when you win
:40:47. > :40:55.elections, and I certainly do miss that. What are you nostalgic about,
:40:56. > :41:02.Michael? Power, influence? No, I am completely relaxed about all that.
:41:03. > :41:06.You have us now. Of course I think history explains Brexit. The
:41:07. > :41:10.continental experience of the 20th century was coming as, fascism,
:41:11. > :41:14.invasion, the destruction of democratic institutions and the rule
:41:15. > :41:19.of law. The British experience was the survival of Parliamentary
:41:20. > :41:23.democracy and its institutions. So our European partners feel insecure
:41:24. > :41:28.and want European institutions to guarantee security. We don't have
:41:29. > :41:34.that feeling at all. They had strong reasons to come together for their
:41:35. > :41:38.national identity. Ours was essentially an economic reason. We
:41:39. > :41:43.join for economic reasons. We were a basket case at the time. You are
:41:44. > :41:49.right, it was not integral to our national identity. Are there times
:41:50. > :41:56.when nostalgia comes to the fore, as at the moment? Yes, when we struggle
:41:57. > :42:00.to define our future we start to look intensively at the past. We
:42:01. > :42:06.have seen quite a lot of it recently with enthusiasm for Empire 2.0, we
:42:07. > :42:12.are recalling the time when Britain ruled three court is of the worlds
:42:13. > :42:16.population. And our vision that we created a benign empire, whereas
:42:17. > :42:20.many who were part of it would disagree. We see nostalgia
:42:21. > :42:26.functioning quite heavily. It often functions heavily in dictatorships,
:42:27. > :42:31.too. Pol Pot might be the most extreme example. We will see how
:42:32. > :42:37.long this particular period of nostalgia lasts. What are you up to?
:42:38. > :42:43.Finishing a book about the 1930s. In the United Kingdom? The United
:42:44. > :42:45.Kingdom and America. Writing hard. That's your lot for tonight,
:42:46. > :42:48.folks, but not for us. We're off to Lou Lou's
:42:49. > :42:50.for the Jeremy Corbyn Search Ever since his game-changing
:42:51. > :42:53.triumph at PMQs this week, the Labour leader has been
:42:54. > :42:55.worryingly quiet, so we're spending our evening cross
:42:56. > :42:58.referencing any reports of stolen manhole covers with his
:42:59. > :43:00.potential whereabouts. If you can hear us,
:43:01. > :43:02.Jeremy, please come back, We've even laid out some
:43:03. > :43:08.of your favourite Peruvian dates in the shape of a heart in the hope
:43:09. > :43:12.of luring you to turn up. Don't let BoJo's raw
:43:13. > :43:21.sexual magnetism bite. MUSIC: Take My Breath
:43:22. > :44:04.Away, by Berlin. On last week's Let's Sing Dance,
:44:05. > :44:07.there was musicals... It looks a bit like lads run out of
:44:08. > :44:14.budget on an Amsterdam stag night.