:00:00. > :00:00.It's just another lonely night in Westminster.
:00:07. > :00:08.The sidewalks are deserted, the malls are empty,
:00:09. > :00:31.the post-election dust still hasn't settled, and the moon is out.
:00:32. > :00:34.OK, guys, we have someone on the line.
:00:35. > :00:41.Hello, I'm THE Gyles Brandreth from Barnes and I want to talk
:00:42. > :00:44.about how the Prime Minister has emerged from a failed
:00:45. > :00:52.Given this was meant to be the Brexit election,
:00:53. > :00:55.I'd kind of like to know what's happening with our exit from the EU.
:00:56. > :01:07.Look, the Prime Minister said Brexit means Brexit but now it
:01:08. > :01:15.It makes me wonder about the hand of history.
:01:16. > :01:22.If only there were some historians listening in.
:01:23. > :01:25.It can't be because the show is too popular.
:01:26. > :01:33.My interns tell me the switchboard is lighting up.
:01:34. > :01:56.Evenin' all and welcome to This Week.
:01:57. > :01:59.In the early hours of yesterday moring Khalid Ahmed was preparing
:02:00. > :02:05.Khalid lives on the eighth floor of Grenfell Tower,
:02:06. > :02:08.a 24-storey apartment block in west London.
:02:09. > :02:12.Suddenly he realised something was dreadfully wrong.
:02:13. > :02:15.15 minutes later, nearly the whole building was ablaze in one
:02:16. > :02:19.of the worst fires London has seen in living memory.
:02:20. > :02:22.Many Muslims who lived in the building had stayed up
:02:23. > :02:25.for suhar, the meal between one and two o'clock in the morning
:02:26. > :02:33.Many people in Grenfell Tower may owe their lives to that very fact.
:02:34. > :02:37.Amid reports of fire alarms not working, those awake ran from door
:02:38. > :02:43.But many, many are still unaccounted for and many
:02:44. > :02:50.It's feared the death toll could be very high.
:02:51. > :02:52.No one knows for certain what caused the fire,
:02:53. > :02:56.but we do know that residents had expressed concern about the safety
:02:57. > :02:58.of the building, with some fearing it was a "disaster
:02:59. > :03:04.This afternoon the Prime Minister called for a full public
:03:05. > :03:08.The nation, grappling with tales of desperate mothers
:03:09. > :03:11.throwing their babies out of windows, and of children crying
:03:12. > :03:14.for help at flame-engulfed windows, will have to wait some
:03:15. > :03:21.The general election seems a long time away,
:03:22. > :03:23.but for the moment we do not have a government that
:03:24. > :03:26.can command a majority, and ministers cannot be properly
:03:27. > :03:29.questioned on the causes of, or their response
:03:30. > :03:33.to the Grenfell Tower fire, because Parliament
:03:34. > :03:37.In the last three months our country has endured three horrific terrorist
:03:38. > :03:40.attacks, and the country's brave emergency services have been
:03:41. > :03:47.The nation feels, yet again, a sense of deep, profound shock.
:03:48. > :03:50.Tough questions need to be answered and many lives will
:03:51. > :04:09.The actual flames, mercifully, have died down, but you sense that the
:04:10. > :04:14.flames of the political row are just starting to smoulder. Will this be
:04:15. > :04:17.politicised? Well, I think people are rightly angry about what has
:04:18. > :04:21.happened because it should never have happened, in the richest city
:04:22. > :04:26.in one of the richest countries in the world. And I think you saw
:04:27. > :04:29.today, when various politicians visited, that people want people to
:04:30. > :04:36.be held responsible and held to account. It's hell on earth. It
:04:37. > :04:43.feels like something you might see in a third World country, not in
:04:44. > :04:47.this country. And the unimaginable horror of what people have been
:04:48. > :04:52.through and what they have seen will live with them four-year stint come,
:04:53. > :04:58.but people want answers quickly. And is the enquiry a way to get those
:04:59. > :05:05.answers? Absolutely. A full public enquiry. Nothing else will satisfy
:05:06. > :05:09.people. Both party leaders went down today. Very different approaches
:05:10. > :05:14.from Mrs May and Mr Corbyn. How would you characterise what they
:05:15. > :05:19.did? Alas, Mrs May was what she has been for the last six weeks, which
:05:20. > :05:24.is to say she wanted an entirely controlled situation in which she
:05:25. > :05:27.did not use her cue manner. She met in private with the emergency
:05:28. > :05:31.services, no doubt a good thing to do, but she should have been there
:05:32. > :05:38.with the residents, which is what Jeremy Corbyn was. He was hugging
:05:39. > :05:41.people and being natural. The Prime Minister would have been shouted at,
:05:42. > :05:47.but she should have been willing to take that. Because the London mayor,
:05:48. > :05:52.Sadiq Khan, got heckled quite a lot. It is not their fault, but you have
:05:53. > :05:58.to be prepared to receive people's emotions, and not be so frightened
:05:59. > :06:02.about people. May I say, I think it has sent a shameful image of this
:06:03. > :06:06.country around the world, to see public-housing blazing like a torch
:06:07. > :06:10.is a shameful image. It reminds me of the King's Cross fire and of
:06:11. > :06:13.Hillsborough. The one bit of comfort I draw from this is that King's
:06:14. > :06:18.Cross and Hillsborough led to dramatic changes in those fields,
:06:19. > :06:21.and there will be dramatic changes in public housing. Many tower blocks
:06:22. > :06:26.will be torn down because we will decide we need two staircases, and
:06:27. > :06:30.it will not be possible to refit many of them. And I think there will
:06:31. > :06:35.be a broader reconsideration of what is going on on estates. At the
:06:36. > :06:39.moment, we are grappling with this enormous death toll, which I think
:06:40. > :06:43.is going to be enormous, but something very different will come
:06:44. > :06:48.out of it, and something much better for the future. Last couple of
:06:49. > :06:52.words. There will be people watching who will say it was not that long
:06:53. > :06:55.ago that there was a fire in Camberwell and an inquest sat for
:06:56. > :07:00.the best part of three months and recommendations were made, the idea
:07:01. > :07:04.that lessons need to be learned. Nothing happened. Much of it in the
:07:05. > :07:08.end is about money. On the front page of The Times tomorrow, there is
:07:09. > :07:14.a horrific story that the difference between having a properly fireproof
:07:15. > :07:20.panel is ?2 more, and for ?5,000 it was not done properly. So it will be
:07:21. > :07:28.about money. We can't avoid that. And I think the mood of the country
:07:29. > :07:32.is shifting to saying that cutting costs is clearly risking lives and
:07:33. > :07:36.is not the right approach for the future. I think it is more than
:07:37. > :07:42.that, I think it is a transformational moment. Because?
:07:43. > :07:46.Because this disaster is much worse than any of the others. It is going
:07:47. > :07:49.to be a horrific death toll and like the King's Cross fire and
:07:50. > :07:51.Hillsborough you cannot ignore it. We have to change everything. Thank
:07:52. > :07:54.you. Now, the eagle-eyed and sober among
:07:55. > :07:57.you may have noticed that I am not, He's on a walking holiday
:07:58. > :08:00.in Snowdonia with Molly the dog and Tim Farron,
:08:01. > :08:02.who suddenly has a lot Luckily for this program,
:08:03. > :08:06.BBC editorial guidelines clearly state that This Week should make it
:08:07. > :08:10.to air as long as it's presented by a grumpy,
:08:11. > :08:13.arrogant, overpaid, brutish, red faced broadcaster
:08:14. > :08:16.with a history of rough interviews Which is just as well
:08:17. > :08:21.because what a week's it's been, what with the Tories winning
:08:22. > :08:26.but losing and Labour To think that this time last week
:08:27. > :08:32.many in the Westminster bubble What history will make of Theresa
:08:33. > :08:38.May's premiership is anyone's guess. A year ago hailed for her steely
:08:39. > :08:43.determination and a safe pair of hands, she appears friendless
:08:44. > :08:47.and a source of ridicule, having presided over one of the worst
:08:48. > :08:52.election campaigns in history. So goodbye a 20-point
:08:53. > :08:55.lead in the polls, farewell a Commons majority,
:08:56. > :08:57.and adios that manifesto. But what does it
:08:58. > :09:01.all mean for Brexit? After all, the election
:09:02. > :09:04.was all about that - wasn't it? Here's the Telegraph's Liam Halligan
:09:05. > :09:33.with his take of the week. Brexit is up in the air, dominated
:09:34. > :09:44.by DUP deal-making. But away from the spotlight, the UK's Brexit
:09:45. > :09:48.strategy is in a spin. Stop! The soft Brexit crew are back, pushing
:09:49. > :09:54.for continued membership of the EU single market. But that means
:09:55. > :09:58.ongoing annual multi-billion pound payments to Brussels, and the
:09:59. > :10:05.continued supremacy of EU law, not least on freedom of movement. That's
:10:06. > :10:17.why so-called soft Brexit isn't really Brexit. And to say that it
:10:18. > :10:23.is, stretching the truth. Brexit isn't a dead. Labour and the Tories
:10:24. > :10:27.between them one over four fifth of the vote last Thursday, both vowing
:10:28. > :10:33.to leave the single market. Then there is the 52% who back to leaving
:10:34. > :10:37.the EU last June. And the anti-Brexit Lib Dems and SNP both
:10:38. > :10:44.spooked voters in this election, getting a lower share of the vote.
:10:45. > :10:50.This hung parliament weakens the UK in Europe's eyes. One Dutch
:10:51. > :10:58.newspaper cartoon had our Prime Minister hitting herself over the
:10:59. > :11:02.head with a hammer. Perhaps there is something we can do for you, said
:11:03. > :11:12.Jean-Claude Juncker, EU President, in the cartoon. In reality, the EU
:11:13. > :11:16.itself is badly split. Franco- German unity is a pipe dream and EU
:11:17. > :11:24.business leaders want a UK trade deal. If we hold our nerve and take
:11:25. > :11:31.careful aim, we can still strike a good bargain. Brexit was always
:11:32. > :11:35.going to bring political ups and downs, but if we get queasy, with a
:11:36. > :11:39.fee brow commons or a determined House of Lords trying to stop it,
:11:40. > :11:45.the EU will give us the worst possible deal. But that could derail
:11:46. > :11:48.the process, leaving us stuck in the EU. That would delight much of the
:11:49. > :11:54.political and media establishment, but many voters would be furious,
:11:55. > :12:00.viewing democracy has nothing but make-believe.
:12:01. > :12:04.They'll be in Clissold Park, London, this weekend.
:12:05. > :12:07.Liam Halligan from the Telegraph joins me now.
:12:08. > :12:15.Hopefully he's done screaming for the day.
:12:16. > :12:22.You can show off in a minute and tell everyone what you are telling
:12:23. > :12:28.us. Michael, the election all about Brexit. Where are we left?
:12:29. > :12:35.Lee is in the world of fantasy with Mrs May. I support Brexit, but Mrs
:12:36. > :12:39.May will not be able to get it through the Cabinet, through her
:12:40. > :12:43.party, through the Commons, through the Lords. Such it might as well
:12:44. > :12:47.stop talking about it right now. Actually, it doesn't matter what she
:12:48. > :12:53.talks about because she is not going to be Prime Minister for very much
:12:54. > :12:57.longer. How much longer? I would be amazed if she made it to the
:12:58. > :13:02.conference in October. She would even get a conference? I think it
:13:03. > :13:06.would be humiliating to go to conference. I remember Margaret
:13:07. > :13:11.Thatcher went to conference and was cheered to the Echo and was got rid
:13:12. > :13:16.of five weeks later. There is that possibility for Mrs May. I would
:13:17. > :13:22.avoid the problem if I were she, and to not go to conference. So who is
:13:23. > :13:28.on manoeuvres? They are all completely free of charisma. The
:13:29. > :13:32.only person who could lead to the Conservative Party, the only proven
:13:33. > :13:39.winner, is Ruth Davidson. Theresa May is a proven loser. None of the
:13:40. > :13:44.others seem to have very much to offer. And are deeply unattractive
:13:45. > :13:49.to the public. Deeply unattractive. The Tories are in a terrible
:13:50. > :13:53.quandary. The only thing that is positive for the Tories is that
:13:54. > :13:56.Jeremy Corbyn must now be taken seriously. I have a feeling that
:13:57. > :14:01.quite a lot of voters believe Liz Kendall and other Labour candidates
:14:02. > :14:03.at the last election that Corbyn stood no chance and they have the
:14:04. > :14:08.luxury of voting for whoever they wanted because Corbyn was not going
:14:09. > :14:11.to win. But now you have to take a Corbyn Premiership very seriously.
:14:12. > :14:17.The moderates in the Labour Party have to take it seriously, as well
:14:18. > :14:18.as the Tories. Lives, what do you take from what Liam is saying about
:14:19. > :14:30.Brexit? Let's look at it thisway. If May had
:14:31. > :14:35.won, the extreme hard liners would be saying it was due to the view of
:14:36. > :14:38.Brexit. They took responsibility for the win now they need to take
:14:39. > :14:43.responsibility for the loss. I think the first thing that's dead and
:14:44. > :14:48.buried is the idea that no deal is better than a bad deal. I think that
:14:49. > :14:52.certainly if she's going into a deal with the DUP, we are going to have
:14:53. > :14:56.to stay within the customs union because the DUP don't want a hard
:14:57. > :15:00.border, that's for sure. Thirdly, she is going to have to make
:15:01. > :15:04.transitional arrangements because there's no way she's going to get
:15:05. > :15:08.the leave arrangements and the future relationship done within the
:15:09. > :15:13.time available. That's got to be put in place and my preference would be
:15:14. > :15:17.that we stay within the EA so businesses have certainty. I think
:15:18. > :15:21.it's all to play for and I am very pleased that all those people who
:15:22. > :15:26.said that anyone who questioned or challenged anything to do with
:15:27. > :15:29.Brexit and called us Remoaners and enemies of the people, now we have
:15:30. > :15:32.the chance to do our job, which is to hold the Government to account
:15:33. > :15:38.and set out a positive position for the future. Liam, Hammer Halligan,
:15:39. > :15:44.tell everybody what you achieved, you will forever be known as that
:15:45. > :15:47.now, but tell us what you achieved? That was really me that whacked
:15:48. > :15:51.that. I wasn't going to mention that. Michael thinks you are a
:15:52. > :15:58.little off track? That's all very well but I would say what I said in
:15:59. > :16:02.the piece, Labour and the Tories got over four fifths of the votes, both
:16:03. > :16:07.stood on the platform of leaving the single market. If we don't leave the
:16:08. > :16:11.single market... It was very different though wasn't it It's not
:16:12. > :16:15.really Brexit if you don't leave the single market. We voted to stay in,
:16:16. > :16:20.if you remember, the Common Market, back in 1975. The single market is
:16:21. > :16:25.far more integrationist because we have had Nice and Lisbon and
:16:26. > :16:28.Maastricht and the other treaties so it's odd to have another referendum
:16:29. > :16:34.and stay in the single market. If you stay in the customs union, the
:16:35. > :16:37.whole sort of optimistic case for Brexit, trading more with the rest
:16:38. > :16:41.of the world, falls by the wayside because you can't make your own free
:16:42. > :16:45.trade deals with the rest of the world. The EU hasn't made trade
:16:46. > :16:49.deals with anyone in the major economy around the world. I agree
:16:50. > :16:53.with you entirely, it's just not going to happen. You can see what
:16:54. > :16:58.the Chancellor of the Exchequer is up to. You can see the Tory party is
:16:59. > :17:04.not going to wear it. The Labour Party is not to be depended upon.
:17:05. > :17:09.Sure, they'll say whatever they need to. I agree. If we stay in the
:17:10. > :17:13.single market, we are not leaving the European Union really. In
:17:14. > :17:19.fairness, we are faced with a dilemma where the people are asked
:17:20. > :17:23.to vote firstly do you favour Brexit or not. Yes. Second, do you favour
:17:24. > :17:30.hard Brexit, no. That is a difficult narrow channel to go through. People
:17:31. > :17:39.voted for lots of different reasons. The main one that I experienced was
:17:40. > :17:45.about controlling immigration. I'm increasingly hopeful that we could
:17:46. > :17:50.get some changes on migration. We saw one of Macron's senior advisers
:17:51. > :17:55.saying the leave campaign tapped into people's genuine concerns about
:17:56. > :17:58.immigration and that freedom of movement is not indispensable to the
:17:59. > :18:02.free flow of goods and services. So I mean it's all to play for. We
:18:03. > :18:08.should have all the options on the table and I think May's big mistake
:18:09. > :18:13.after the referendum, as I argued at the time, she should have said, we
:18:14. > :18:17.are leaving, but 48% of people voted to Remain, it's going to be
:18:18. > :18:20.difficult and complex, there'll be compromises and trade-offs, and
:18:21. > :18:24.present that to people honestly. Instead she came forward with a lot
:18:25. > :18:28.of sound bites and refused to even involve Parliament. You are sounding
:18:29. > :18:31.much brave after the general election. To be fair on this
:18:32. > :18:36.programme I've had to argue my case for weeks. Not quite as strongly as
:18:37. > :18:41.you are arguing now. You are all very cowed by the electorate and
:18:42. > :18:46.going round... You began every sentence saying, we must respect
:18:47. > :18:50.what the electorate... And in all my election addresses I've absolutely
:18:51. > :19:01.said we voted to leave, we want the best. Respect the vote where you
:19:02. > :19:04.have no control over borders? I want to see freedom of Labour, freedom
:19:05. > :19:08.movement of labour and I believe there is a deal to be struck. That's
:19:09. > :19:12.what I said to my constituents, we want to keep the jobs, trade and
:19:13. > :19:19.investment. We need changes on migration. You are in the hands of a
:19:20. > :19:23.bunch of EU bureaucrats? You are so wrong, Liam. In the end, it's a
:19:24. > :19:26.political decision. If Macron and Merkel decide they have problems
:19:27. > :19:33.with immigration within their own countries and which they do, it will
:19:34. > :19:39.be a political deal and that's what the price is. There's always been a
:19:40. > :19:43.cheat in this which is the claim that the free movement of people is
:19:44. > :19:48.necessary for a single market - it's not. The free movement of labour may
:19:49. > :19:53.be necessary. That's a completely different thing, that's about people
:19:54. > :19:59.moving to jobs. Let me put my two pennet in and say two Conservative
:20:00. > :20:03.Prime Ministers have taken ludicrous gambles, falling unnecessary votes
:20:04. > :20:08.for party political reasons and have left us in a weak and unstable
:20:09. > :20:11.position. What an amazing result. Liam, could the deal look so bad
:20:12. > :20:19.that actually the British electorate would want to turn their back on it
:20:20. > :20:23.anyway? Look, if we make clear that we are going queasy on Brexit, then
:20:24. > :20:27.the EU will, because they want ?10 billion a year net from us, the EU
:20:28. > :20:32.will make sure we get a really, really bad deal, so the public
:20:33. > :20:35.thinks it's absolutely terrible, then we revert to the status quo
:20:36. > :20:40.where we stay within the EU. That's all very well and a lot of people
:20:41. > :20:44.will like that and think they've been very clever around Westminster
:20:45. > :20:48.but there'll be a big swathe of the electorate that will be completely
:20:49. > :20:54.disillusioned with that. What are you going to do over the weekend,
:20:55. > :21:02.tip the lady out of the bed or get a goldfish in a bag? Trying to pop a
:21:03. > :21:07.balloon with a blunt dart. Thank you very much.
:21:08. > :21:10.You can show off in a minute and tell everyone what you are telling
:21:11. > :21:14.Now it's late - running through fields of wheat late.
:21:15. > :21:16.But if the Prime Minister's rebellious days of farmyard
:21:17. > :21:18.frivolity don't fill you with glee, then fear not,
:21:19. > :21:20.because waiting in the wings is broadcaster and historian
:21:21. > :21:22.Dan Snow, here to put popularity in our spotlight.
:21:23. > :21:25.So by all means, be our Facebuddies, join our Twitteratti Instagang.
:21:26. > :21:30.So it seems the nation can now look forward to a coalition of some sort
:21:31. > :21:31.between the Conservative Party and the DUP, thrusting
:21:32. > :21:33.Northern Irish politics centre stage and possibly,
:21:34. > :21:38.if you believe John Major, destabilising the entire
:21:39. > :21:42.So I hope you haven't tuned into This Week
:21:43. > :21:48.for strength and stability, because we're following
:21:49. > :21:50.the Tory rebrand and just "getting on with the job".
:21:51. > :21:53.And if that means the end of austerity, so much the better.
:21:54. > :21:56.It means the BBC can finally afford my exorbitant fee,
:21:57. > :22:00.and we can all enjoy the coalition of chaos that is the big, bad,
:22:01. > :22:06.biased BBC and the shining beacon of solid impartial journalism
:22:07. > :22:24.Here's Giles Brandreth with this week's round up of the week.
:22:25. > :22:31.# Doctor, doctor, have mercy on me #.
:22:32. > :22:34.A week on from the general election and Westminster continues
:22:35. > :22:38.The Prime Minister is still looking peaky.
:22:39. > :22:41.The diagnosis - a severe case of the hung Parliament.
:22:42. > :22:57.This Week can make you feel a great deal better.
:22:58. > :23:02.Our medicine is so alternative, there's no alternative.
:23:03. > :23:17.The Commons returned for the first time this week since the election
:23:18. > :23:19.and MPs re-elected speaker John Bercow.
:23:20. > :23:24.The patient put on a very brave face given her poorly political position.
:23:25. > :23:28.Well, they say laughter is the best medicine.
:23:29. > :23:32.Mr Speaker elect, on behalf of the whole House, may I congratulate
:23:33. > :23:43.Meanwhile, Jeremy Corbyn has never looked fitter.
:23:44. > :23:49.When he returned to the Commons, he received a standing ovation.
:23:50. > :23:52.In fact, several standing ovations, because later when he met the PLP,
:23:53. > :23:55.no longer a medical condition, it means the Parliamentary
:23:56. > :23:58.Labour Party, they stood and they cheered yet again.
:23:59. > :24:01.In fact, the election has agreed with him so much that he appears
:24:02. > :24:05.to have embraced campaigning as a healthy lifestyle choice.
:24:06. > :24:09.He managed to be quite magnanimous towards the poor patient,
:24:10. > :24:16.It is customary on these occasions to congratulate
:24:17. > :24:18.the returning Prime Minister and I absolutely do so.
:24:19. > :24:24.I congratulate her on returning and I'm sure she will agree with me
:24:25. > :24:28.that democracy is a wonderous thing and can throw up some
:24:29. > :24:39.It's bright orange, but it could see you through.
:24:40. > :24:49.It appears there could be side effects.
:24:50. > :24:52.A consultant from an earlier era, one John Major, weighed in to urge
:24:53. > :24:56.Mrs May to put the Irish peace process ahead of her need
:24:57. > :25:01.I understand why she wishes to shore up her Parliamentary position.
:25:02. > :25:05.That is entirely understandable and I sympathise.
:25:06. > :25:12.But, but my main concern certainly is the peace process.
:25:13. > :25:17.A fundamental part of that peace process is that the UK Government
:25:18. > :25:22.needs to be impartial between all the competing interests
:25:23. > :25:25.The PM needs to get back on her feet sharpish.
:25:26. > :25:28.We want her fighting fit for those Brexit negotiations.
:25:29. > :25:33.But not all of her former colleagues seem to be rooting for her recovery.
:25:34. > :25:38.It's just how long she's going to remain on death row.
:25:39. > :25:46.In other words we could get to the middle of next week and it
:25:47. > :25:54.The last time we saw him was in the operating theatre
:25:55. > :25:56.when he was wielding a knife himself.
:25:57. > :25:58.You can't keep a good Brexiteer down, can you?!
:25:59. > :26:04.Now, are we going to see the return of Tory EU-fluenza?
:26:05. > :26:10.It's important after this general election that we do two things; one,
:26:11. > :26:14.we form a Government which is capable of carrying
:26:15. > :26:15.through the public's wishes, including leaving
:26:16. > :26:18.the European Union, and at the same time we reflect on the fact
:26:19. > :26:21.that we didn't get the majority we wanted and therefore
:26:22. > :26:26.we needed to be a properly in listening mode to appreciate
:26:27. > :26:34.# I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in #.
:26:35. > :26:37.Meanwhile, the pressure has been rising among the Liberal Democrats.
:26:38. > :26:41.Their leader Tim Farron resigned, claiming his Christian
:26:42. > :26:44.faith was incompatible with modern politics.
:26:45. > :26:47.He didn't mention that perhaps some of the voters were slightly
:26:48. > :26:54.disconcerted by being encouraged by him to smell his spaniel.
:26:55. > :26:57.Put us all in the paddock, wouldn't it?
:26:58. > :27:00.I seem to have been the subject of suspicion
:27:01. > :27:02.because of what I believe and who my faith is in.
:27:03. > :27:06.In which case, we are kidding ourselves if we think we yet live
:27:07. > :27:12.And that is why I've chosen to step down as leader
:27:13. > :27:23.Down in the south, Mrs May's Conservatives didn't do
:27:24. > :27:26.too well, but up in Scotland, Ruth Davidson's Conservatives
:27:27. > :27:32.triumphed and Ruth herself is now flexing her muscles as an active
:27:33. > :27:35.Remainer, encouraging an open Brexit.
:27:36. > :27:37.They've said that they want the Conservatives to be
:27:38. > :27:40.in Government, but by denying there's a majority, they don't
:27:41. > :27:44.That means we have to reach out to other people on the big
:27:45. > :27:48.Consensus is a condition that appears to be catching.
:27:49. > :27:51.SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon, having dropped 21 seats...
:27:52. > :27:57.Called for a wee pause in the Brexit negotiations to allow time
:27:58. > :28:01.for the cross party committee involving the three devolved
:28:02. > :28:08.The approach that the Government was taking to hard Brexit I think
:28:09. > :28:10.is dead in the water and cannot stand.
:28:11. > :28:14.I'm calling today for a process that is opened up to include more
:28:15. > :28:18.voices, all parties and all four nations of the UK and an approach
:28:19. > :28:21.that has continued membership of the single market at its heart.
:28:22. > :28:31.If the tonic isn't working, there is one final prescription.
:28:32. > :29:00.Thanks for Oxford Circus surgery for that. With us is former SNP
:29:01. > :29:04.superstar and former SNP MP John Mickologison. Welcome. The biggest
:29:05. > :29:12.groan I've heard from you so far tonight was when I mentioned the
:29:13. > :29:17.DUP, Michael. Why? Well, because I think that much of the electorate
:29:18. > :29:21.will be dismayed at the Conservatives making a pact with the
:29:22. > :29:25.DUP because the only thing they know about the DUP is that it's against
:29:26. > :29:31.same-sex marriage. Given the tremendous progress that the
:29:32. > :29:36.Conservatives have made in winning over the LGBT community, introducing
:29:37. > :29:39.same-sex marriage in Britain, in Great Britain, not in Northern
:29:40. > :29:44.Ireland, it seems a tremendous setback. On top of that, I do take
:29:45. > :29:50.quite seriously what John Major's said. He's right, is he? Well, I
:29:51. > :29:55.mean he could be right, you know. If the Prime Minister were going to now
:29:56. > :29:58.involve all the parties, including Sinn Fein, and if she were going to
:29:59. > :30:01.talk to the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats and the SNP and
:30:02. > :30:06.everybody else about Brexit and if she were going to, you know, then
:30:07. > :30:09.take those discusses over to our European partners, maybe this would
:30:10. > :30:16.all be all right. But, so far, she's not looked very good at talking to
:30:17. > :30:20.her Cabinet, it let alone her party, let alone other party, let alone
:30:21. > :30:22.Europe. So one doesn't have much hope for it really. So what should
:30:23. > :30:31.she have done? She is paying a great price for
:30:32. > :30:37.this. I think she could have formed a minority government. Because all
:30:38. > :30:43.that she will get from the DUP is support for the Budget and support
:30:44. > :30:47.for the Queen's speech and a motion of confidence. And probably most
:30:48. > :30:52.things were available anyway because the DUP does not want put in Jeremy
:30:53. > :30:56.Corbyn who has been a sympathiser with the IRA over the years. So you
:30:57. > :31:03.could have relied on the DUP for that without an agreement. Of
:31:04. > :31:07.course, the coalition of chaos was what the Conservatives were saying
:31:08. > :31:14.you guys would be involved in and yet the reality now is... When I
:31:15. > :31:20.look at May now, she is like a boxer who has been punched to the floor.
:31:21. > :31:23.She has staggered back up, head going round, you are not sure if
:31:24. > :31:31.she's going to fall over when she has another punch. Her weakness and
:31:32. > :31:37.Herb brittleness and her fear and her inability to do what is right
:31:38. > :31:42.now, which is to say, look, the public has voted as they have and I
:31:43. > :31:45.am going to change our approach. We are going to work with other
:31:46. > :31:49.parties, with devolved administrations, we are going to be
:31:50. > :31:52.open and transparent and set out the risks and benefits of different
:31:53. > :31:58.approaches, she has shown none of that. In fact, she came outside
:31:59. > :32:01.Downing Street after the result and pretended it has not happened. We
:32:02. > :32:07.are just going to get on with the job. I think she is not up to the
:32:08. > :32:13.job. She has now made just about managing into a lifestyle choice.
:32:14. > :32:21.Let's talk about the landscape in Scotland. What has happened? We lost
:32:22. > :32:25.quite a lot of seats, as you know. Why? Ruth Davidson has managed to
:32:26. > :32:29.make the conversation about the constitution. We had local elections
:32:30. > :32:33.recently and the leaflets did not mention the rubbish bins, schools or
:32:34. > :32:38.roads. They said, vote for councillors who will stop
:32:39. > :32:41.independence. My local council is not filled with people who are
:32:42. > :32:48.tackling grand constitutional issues. She was successful in that.
:32:49. > :32:54.So what we saw at the general election was people coalesce in
:32:55. > :33:00.individual constituencies round the party most likely to beat the SNP.
:33:01. > :33:05.There were informal pacts across the country. In my own constituency, I
:33:06. > :33:10.did not see a single Tory or Labour poster anywhere. There were no
:33:11. > :33:13.leaflets. They stood back in order to let the Lib Dem candidate wins. I
:33:14. > :33:25.think that happened across the country. So we can say farewell to
:33:26. > :33:28.India to? My idea was or was that we would have a second independence
:33:29. > :33:32.referendum once we knew the details of Brexit. I think the Brexit deal
:33:33. > :33:38.will be a very bad deal and people will feel they were sold a pup. For
:33:39. > :33:41.me, the second independence referendum was giving people a
:33:42. > :33:46.choice. The Lib Dem position is absurd because they say, we want to
:33:47. > :33:52.stop you having a damaging second referendum on independence, but we
:33:53. > :33:55.are happy to have a damaging second referendum on Brexit. You can't
:33:56. > :33:59.complain about other parties making the campaign about what they wanted
:34:00. > :34:06.to be, not what you want it to be about. I am not. I am answering the
:34:07. > :34:10.question. It did not help the cause of another independence referendum
:34:11. > :34:16.in any way, did it? I am not going to argue that. You have people in
:34:17. > :34:19.Scotland, especially young people, passionate about a second
:34:20. > :34:24.independence referendum. You will notice there was no Corbyn bounce in
:34:25. > :34:29.Scotland. The Labour Party did quite badly. We got more seats. We now
:34:30. > :34:34.have a team of Labour MPs in Scotland. You got more seats. That's
:34:35. > :34:40.the name of the game in first past the post. I am painfully aware of
:34:41. > :34:45.what the name of the game is. I am just saying there was not a Corbyn
:34:46. > :34:49.bounce. You do have young people passionate about independence and a
:34:50. > :34:55.lot of especially older voters who do not want a second independence
:34:56. > :35:00.referendum. Scotland is divided. Liz Kendall, talk a bit about Labour.
:35:01. > :35:06.You did lose but everybody feels that you won. In reality, your party
:35:07. > :35:11.has lost again, has come up short, and Mr Corbyn, although he did
:35:12. > :35:16.better than expected, he still lost. He confounded expectations,
:35:17. > :35:28.including my own. I think the campaign was excellent. It changed
:35:29. > :35:32.when the two manifestos came out. I remember being here and saying why
:35:33. > :35:37.didn't you get behind him? I have never seen such a campaign since I
:35:38. > :35:43.was elected. We had better bring in Michael before he goes the colour of
:35:44. > :35:48.his shirt. People with many different views pulls together,
:35:49. > :35:51.certainly in my seat. We went in 20 points behind, expecting to lose
:35:52. > :35:57.seats and we ended up gaining them. But we have not one. Many people
:35:58. > :36:02.would say it was accosted as well. There are a number of things. We
:36:03. > :36:09.have two wins 64 seats to form a majority next time. That is still a
:36:10. > :36:13.big mountain to climb. You make Mrs May sound like a realist. What has
:36:14. > :36:17.happened to your party is it is firmly in the grip of Momentum, and
:36:18. > :36:21.you know better than everybody that these are very nasty people who will
:36:22. > :36:25.drive the likes of you out of the party. They will have you
:36:26. > :36:31.deselected. They will pursue you on social media. They will get you out.
:36:32. > :36:36.You say you were united. You do not believe in this tache in the Labour
:36:37. > :36:40.Party manifesto club renationalising these industries. In my party
:36:41. > :36:46.locally, everybody pulled together. It made a huge difference. Suddenly,
:36:47. > :36:49.you and Chuka Umunna in particular make it sound like the only
:36:50. > :36:54.disagreement you had with Jeremy Corbyn was that you thought he might
:36:55. > :36:59.not win. I have never said that. Your party has been taken over by a
:37:00. > :37:03.very dangerous hard left, people who have sympathised with terror over
:37:04. > :37:06.the years. They are now within a hair 's breadth of taking power in
:37:07. > :37:11.this country and you should be more worried than I am about that. There
:37:12. > :37:16.were two issues. One, whether he could do well in an election, and
:37:17. > :37:19.full credit to him for that. But certainly from conversations I have
:37:20. > :37:23.had with people, there are issues like defence and security that have
:37:24. > :37:27.to be addressed. Michael's essential point is that the party is
:37:28. > :37:33.effectively on the verge of a takeover. I do feel that at all.
:37:34. > :37:37.There are some on the hard left, some supporters of Corbyn who worked
:37:38. > :37:42.their butts off in my campaign and I'm grateful to them for it. His
:37:43. > :37:46.supporters think the Parliamentary Labour Party is the obstacle to
:37:47. > :37:50.taking power and it must be destroyed, and you will be destroyed
:37:51. > :37:54.in the process. I saw you rolling your eyes. We must talk about Tim
:37:55. > :38:00.Farron, the fact that he said he cannot leave the party because of
:38:01. > :38:04.his faith. Bisla. The problem was not his faith, but that he could not
:38:05. > :38:08.give a coherent answer to the question, do you think that gay sex
:38:09. > :38:13.is wrong. The answer is, I think that gay sex is fine for those who
:38:14. > :38:19.want to have it. I personally don't. I am talking about him, obviously,
:38:20. > :38:25.in this instance. For him to try and make himself a religious martyr is
:38:26. > :38:31.absolutely absurd. The thing about it is, I do not want to be tolerated
:38:32. > :38:36.by Tim Farron, thinks I am a sinner and he has to pray for me and
:38:37. > :38:39.tolerate me. I think gay people should be respected in the
:38:40. > :38:46.21st-century, and that is the simple message he got wrong. Can I ask you,
:38:47. > :38:51.when is the next general election? I suspect the Tories are very keen not
:38:52. > :39:00.to have another election. I think Mrs May could be in the rocking
:39:01. > :39:03.chair in the bay window in Psycho being rocked backwards and forwards
:39:04. > :39:06.for as long as they can, because they do not want to go to the
:39:07. > :39:11.country again because I think they know they will lose more seats.
:39:12. > :39:17.Whether the coalition of chaos, with the ghastly, homophobic DUP can
:39:18. > :39:19.survive, as the cliche goes, only time will tell. Thank you, good to
:39:20. > :39:24.see you again. Now, if you've just woken up,
:39:25. > :39:27.welcome to Britain's most reviled political programme,
:39:28. > :39:28.loathed in equal measure It's taken This Week over a decade
:39:29. > :39:35.to approach viewing figures that match Lord Buckethead's modest vote
:39:36. > :39:39.share in Maidenhead, which is why the BBC have approached me,
:39:40. > :39:42.LBC's audience magnet. I'm more popular
:39:43. > :39:46.than Farage you know? Which is why we're putting
:39:47. > :39:58.popularity in this week's spotlight. General elections are
:39:59. > :40:07.popularity contests. In politics, you live by the sword
:40:08. > :40:18.and you die by the sword. But does a popular leader make
:40:19. > :40:21.for a popular party? Labour's Chris Lesley was quick
:40:22. > :40:23.to rain on Jeremy Corbyn's We shouldn't pretend this
:40:24. > :40:29.is a famous victory. It's good as far as it's gone, but
:40:30. > :40:33.it's not going to be good enough. Although elections are fiercely
:40:34. > :40:35.partisan, affection for popular I've never quite forgotten the image
:40:36. > :40:42.of the member for Rushcliffe in the tearoom wearing Hush Puppies
:40:43. > :40:45.eating bacon sandwiches, drinking super-strength lager
:40:46. > :40:49.and carrying a cigar whilst taking a break from a debate
:40:50. > :40:54.on healthy living. And, can a politician be so popular
:40:55. > :40:57.they're able to completely reshape Boy wonder, Emmanuel Macron's
:40:58. > :41:04.brand-new party, appears to be heading for a landslide
:41:05. > :41:07.in the French elections. The significance of
:41:08. > :41:10.this result is clear. But we must show humility
:41:11. > :41:14.and determination. And is Donald Trump still riding
:41:15. > :41:18.on a wave of popularity? We thank you for the opportunity and
:41:19. > :41:25.the blessing that you've given us. Mr President, thank you for
:41:26. > :41:27.the honour to serve the country, it's a great privilege
:41:28. > :41:29.you've given me. It's the greatest
:41:30. > :41:31.privilege of my life. I can't thank you enough for
:41:32. > :41:34.the privileges you have given me. Historian Dan Snow reckons
:41:35. > :41:40.the career of every politician, even the most popular,
:41:41. > :42:02.ends in failure. A gratuitous shot of you with your
:42:03. > :42:05.shirt off. I thought you meant the shot of Michael. Which is more
:42:06. > :42:12.important, for the party or the leader to be more popular? Nobody
:42:13. > :42:16.talks about the electoral system. Ours is fascinating. One of the
:42:17. > :42:27.reasons we have had problems is that we have this presidential politics
:42:28. > :42:31.in this country, as Theresa May fought an incredibly presidential
:42:32. > :42:35.campaign, but we have constituency votes and a parliamentary system. We
:42:36. > :42:40.elect our executive throughout legislature. So that is a difficult
:42:41. > :42:45.question to answer. In France and the USA it is all about the person
:42:46. > :42:49.at the top. In Britain it is unclear, but it is probably more
:42:50. > :42:53.about the leader. Look at root in Scotland, phenomenally popular Tory,
:42:54. > :42:59.but Scottish conservatism, one of the most toxic brands in politics.
:43:00. > :43:04.Probably the leader. So last week, was it that no party was popular
:43:05. > :43:12.enough? That is probably right. And how do you brush up? Is a party now
:43:13. > :43:18.a brand rest room of course. But what is curious is that the public
:43:19. > :43:22.seem less tribal than in the past, so Corbyn's wild swing from
:43:23. > :43:29.unpopular to tolerably popular and May's journey the other way, are we
:43:30. > :43:33.less tribal, are we jumping from... Social media brands, consumer brands
:43:34. > :43:37.are having this problem. In France, they seem happy to dump their
:43:38. > :43:42.traditional parties. Perhaps we are going to see that in the UK as well.
:43:43. > :43:47.Was it effectively like two escalators. Once May started going
:43:48. > :43:54.down it was unstoppable and likewise with Mr Corbyn going up? I think
:43:55. > :43:59.May's confidence must be shot, because I can't think of another
:44:00. > :44:09.example in history. Gordon Brown in 2008, 2010, John Major in 1997, he
:44:10. > :44:13.had been a powerful years. This was almost entirely her fault. Not just
:44:14. > :44:18.calling a snap election by the way was conducted. How do you hide from
:44:19. > :44:27.that? Michael, were you a popular politician? No. Why? People took
:44:28. > :44:31.against me. They thought I was arrogant. I think I was quite
:44:32. > :44:36.frightened actually. When I was interviewed by people like you, I
:44:37. > :44:42.was actually feeling frightened of people thought I was being snooty.
:44:43. > :44:48.Anyway, I am now on my way to being a national treasure, so it ends
:44:49. > :44:56.well. We will also break that. In politics, how do you build
:44:57. > :45:00.popularity? I think you should not seek popularity and I don't think
:45:01. > :45:04.popularity is what it is about. I don't think Ruth Davidson courted
:45:05. > :45:10.popularity. She says what she thinks. And she embodies what she
:45:11. > :45:17.thinks. She believes staff. Corbyn did well because he believes things.
:45:18. > :45:20.Mrs May did not appear to believe anything. Margaret Thatcher believed
:45:21. > :45:25.things, big time. She was not popular but got elected again and
:45:26. > :45:31.again. So popularity is absolutely beside the point. Sticking with what
:45:32. > :45:37.you believe, whatever happens. Why are you in politics? What is it for?
:45:38. > :45:40.It is not just a game. I think it is about authenticity. I am not sure
:45:41. > :45:46.Donald Trump believed anything but he looked authentic. I think May's
:45:47. > :45:52.problem is that she appears quite inauthentic. There I say it, if we
:45:53. > :45:57.are talking about popularity, I think her behaviour towards going
:45:58. > :46:02.down to visit the site of the fire today, that was an astonishingly
:46:03. > :46:05.poor bit of leadership, I think. She didn't talk to anyone, did not seem
:46:06. > :46:11.to talk to any of the victims involved, the families... I can see
:46:12. > :46:15.why she would not want to, but that is just 101, get down there, roll up
:46:16. > :46:22.your sleeves and talk to people. It is like George Bush and Katrina,
:46:23. > :46:29.brutal. Can a politician crave popularity too much and it looks
:46:30. > :46:34.ugly? I think we all can, for sure. I think anyone who has been involved
:46:35. > :46:41.on the dating scene... People can be desperate to be popular. It is like
:46:42. > :46:46.Blair in the last years of Blair, he was not sure why his popularity was
:46:47. > :46:50.slipping and he started to spin the wheels and his grin became fixed. I
:46:51. > :46:53.will make myself popular because I have to say that is it.
:46:54. > :46:56.That's your lot for tonight, folks, and we're calling it a night too.
:46:57. > :46:59.We're not off to Lou Lous, we're not off to Annabel's.
:47:00. > :47:02.Like many of you, we've been shaken by the horror of the Grenfell Tower
:47:03. > :47:06.On nights like these, it's only fitting to applaud
:47:07. > :47:08.the heroism of our fire service and the inspirational solidarity
:47:09. > :47:14.I'm not going to lie, the locals are angry.
:47:15. > :47:18.Lives didn't need to be lost and they are lost.
:47:19. > :47:21.The people are looking for their children and it is so unfair.
:47:22. > :47:23.People have lost their homes, children have seen things.
:47:24. > :47:27.We just need to rebuild as a community now.
:47:28. > :47:29.People that have nothing are here getting things
:47:30. > :47:47.My living room is open for anyone to stay.
:47:48. > :47:54.When a disaster like this happens, guess what, everyone turns up
:47:55. > :47:58.Something bad happens, people come together.